Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the lemonade stand featuring myself Dou...
That's right, we're gonna do that now.
It's really hesitated. I was gonna say Gavin.
“Myself Doug Doug, you know what I was thinking about?”
I'm not even saying the bouncing off the pod because they don't know our names. Yeah, I haven't introduced her. I heard a lot of feedback about who are their names. I wanted to turn you into every week. Yeah, yeah.
But what they're done, listen folks, they're past week after week after week. We've been hit with insane political story after insane political story. But this is a tri-force podcast. We're supposed to cover politics, business, and tech. And then there's one seed has grown to be the big...
Talking about Epstein. Actually, yes, actually yes. Absolutely yes, I am talking about Epstein. I'm not talking about Epstein's seed. I'm just kidding.
I can't say that. I didn't say that. No one thought that until you ate it. No one thought that. By the way.
All right, so the big story this big week was Jeffrey Epstein.
And in the new Trantra files, 3 million new files, which is still only like 2% of the
multi-billion files apparently that Obama wrote as part of his coordinated plan to take down. It's crazy that he even had time to kill Osama, then a lot of it. It is insane, say how much right he had to do. And how soon you have seen Epstein at time to throw parties with the billions of emails.
Like, how does it? Dude, it takes me like hours to get through my daily emails of like 30 things I've here applied to. He has apparently talked to every person on earth. Guys, like, I'm against Epstein for his actions, but his email is inbox zero was crazy.
Well, we're not going to dive on this deeply for the reason you want to go and explain. But like, what do you say? So people are, everyone is covering this. Like, it most is the biggest story right now.
“And I think you should watch, like the coffee's in the video, which is gone in some of the”
big revelations. But because there are millions of files, one person I've been interested in reading is Julie Brown, who's actually name in the files as a journalist. He's really scared of. She is going through file by file.
And she said, like, currently, I saw a tweet like from yesterday. She's like, 2% in the, you know what I'm saying? She's like literally trying to analyze file by file. It's so massive. So any major deeper revelations are going to come.
I think later, outside of the big headline names. You already heard. So we are going to try and cover some of the stories that I think are going a little bit under the radar this past week, but are like deeply impactful, especially in the field of business and tech.
Yeah. That's sort of the goal of today's episode. You know, the absolute stuff horrendous. And I think we will cover it more as any new stuff comes out. But the main stuff, the rules would say you would have already heard.
Is that my, oh, no. The yard, all of them except for one are in the files. That is one thing that you're just got. I will let you figure out who. Can you at home figure it out?
“I think, yeah, I feel super, similarly, because I was, I've been on X.”
I've been on X more than normal. He means the drug. He means the drug. It's more than normal. Rows it.
And I, I just feel like at this time where there's so much information and not enough of it has been parsed yet. It's a little easy to, I would say, fall for things that aren't necessarily true. Because people, like, I saw tweet about how there's audio of Tony Podesta, 18 children, which is a conspiracy theory from like, pizza gate, which isn't in these files.
Why didn't you accidentally read the build true or not? First of all, that's a great question. And the grock will let you know. You know, it's so funny because the, we're at peak grock is. People are actually grock is true.
And I'm not saying that I'm not saying that there is an heinous stuff that's going to be uncovered or has already been uncovered in these files.
But the problem is, people are just lobbying like old conspiracy theories.
That's really reviled. You go, oh, I saw this guy's in the file. This is the file. And everyone goes, all right. Well, so I just want to warn people that like, it's obviously insane what's going on.
But please, maybe just give it a little time. Just give the little time for the dust to settle. And don't just latch onto any tweet you see as proof of something that's in it. I would try to look at the documents that are like on the DOJ site. Okay.
Well, I'll count that a little bit. Axe, as I've also been on a little bit this past week, he's just, it's like, it's lunacy. Yeah. It's the most insane shit right now. Like everything on Axe.
And all the things. And all true. And all true. I agree. I have an asking grok about it.
It is all true. What's crazy. I ask grok are you in the files. And you said, yeah. It's grok's definitely in the files.
Yeah. Especially. Okay. Small, small, very funny part. I don't know if you guys saw that was in the files.
Jeffrey Epstein was banned from Xbox Live. This is a true thing. He was banned from Xbox Live for being annoying. So I do think we can declare an end to the console war because Xbox is in the files. And PlayStation isn't.
And that I'm sorry. Hold on. Hold on. No. That means PlayStation did not bear Jeffrey Epstein.
Okay. PlayStation. You got something to account for here? This is the new console war. This war.
I'm sorry.
Hey.
What's he banned on Nintendo Switch or not? That's what I don't know. It's the rest of the following. Because it's Nintendo. But you know, we've all been bacon or minds on Twitter a little bit.
But I would, yeah. We had some other stuff planned for this episode that I think, I'm excited to talk about.
“Well, here's the thing we can't wait on.”
The least the market's not waiting on. Keep home. My screen pairing in the past week under the radar. There's been an absolute meltdown. If you could pull us up, Perry.
In every, basically every single software company in the entire tech industry is melting down.
There's stocks are getting cut 30% for a percent and a half deeper. And it's all because of like this entrenched layer. Oh, God hit the door. But because it's why that was like. Yeah.
Layman's understanding. And we're going to go deeper to the tech. I don't want you to explain it. But people are saying that this vibe coding thing is getting more and more of a snowball. It's getting bigger.
And there's now serious worry that something like Duolingo is an app that you could ask something to create. Or you could like get parts of it that you need and just create. And then it's like, why would you pay Duolingo? Or why would you pay? Figure or Monday.com to organize your stuff.
I mean, I'm going to show our vibe code that's that we made. Yeah, which is kind of like an organizer that's similar. Oops. And it's like, is that company have any value in a world where everything that they made.
Can be generated in a second.
So it's like a insane story full of snowflake. A lot of these are like wicks or square space for example are, you know,
“These are, these are websites you've probably all heard of where they help you make a website, right?”
Yeah. That's their whole product pitch is like, we will help you a non technical person make a website. But now as we're going to talk about shortly, if any non technical person can be like, Make this entire thing for me, that is a much harder pitch for that company. So they've just been plummeting recently.
Yeah, and I'm sure you know, I saw some pushback that's like, this could be a panic, You know, a little bit of like a freak out. And some of these companies have enough expertise or whatever. They're going to craft a way to be useful in this new age. And not all this vibe code is stuff.
We'll take the place of all this. But it's like a big deal for someone like some of them are just going to be obsolete. Like based on what I think what we test the way our stuff and what you're going to talk about. So stuff like square space unfortunately seems like the most likely candidate. Yeah.
But there's I mean, there's everything on here. There's even there's even a dopey. Adobe's on here. Adobe's on there. Not their acrobats doing it.
It's weird. It's actually spun acrobat studio to separate companies. Yeah, that's scary. I really looked around the room like check of Adobe's there. Like even.
Well, the guys got a sniper trained on him right there. Yeah. Each of these mugs has a bomb landing. It's just it's just set to go with the right. I don't want to.
I don't want to. I'll tell you a swim. Okay. But yeah. So let me make a pitch.
Okay. So pitch. Pitch me. The average person probably the majority of people listening this. Probably you guys have heard about vibe coding.
I've heard about AI coding all this type of stuff and have for a while. There's a lot of hype around this much of which is bullshit. However, there has been a huge shift in vibes. I apologize for the pun the past two months really from December to twenty twenty five. So if you have been a software engineer over the past let's say year.
The way broadly people have felt about AI coding is that it's like good. It's helpful, but you shouldn't depend on it too much. And there's also this air of like come on. We're real software engineers don't use AI coding for the hard stuff that you use it. And I've talked to a bunch of software engineers about this.
Like the smartest person I've probably ever worked with is my friend from college. I chatted with him last year in the middle of it. He's like been a senior lead engineer at Twitter before it turned into X in a couple other companies. He is crazy smart.
“And he was like I think of AI as like a dumb junior engineer that never gets better.”
Like it doesn't learn as I tell it over time, right? So he's like it's good enough that I like need to use it for certain tasks. It's not good enough that it would replace me or anybody on my team. Yeah, I talked to auto over at mobile movies like an incredible coder. And he's like yeah, barely. I mean, I just he doesn't for what he's doing.
He prefers to write the code himself still to this day and he's working for him. So it's like I've heard different things. Yeah, generally to oversimplify it the way people have felt it's most useful is if you have a big coding project or big repository or something. You can tell AI to go make a small piece of it and then you review it and that's about it. And then everything seems to have shifted over the past two months.
All the sudden, many of the most like legendary programmers out there including Linus Torvalds and Andre Carpathi have suddenly been saying what just happened. This stuff is now really really really good. So this is largely kicked off by a clawed code by Anthropic to pull this up Perry. So Andre Carpathi kind of one of the like big leaders in AI worked at Tesla, worked at Open AI.
Said I've never felt this much behind as a programmer.
The profession is being dramatically refactored towards the end of this tweet. He says clearly some powerful alien tools handed around except it comes with no manual and everyone has to figure out how to hold it and operate it.
While the resulting magnitude nine earthquake is rocking the profession roll ...
That's a month ago a few days ago.
Given the latest lift in LLM coding capability like many others, I rapidly went from about 80% manual coding and 20% AI to now 80% agent AI coding and 20% edits. Linus Torvalds who made Linux came out and talked about how he's starting to use AI vibe coding a little bit Sam Altman who runs Open AI said this is yesterday I built an app with Codex last week. It was very fun. This is his AI system at Open AI. Then I started asking it for ideas for new features and at least a couple of them were better than what I was thinking of.
I felt a little useless and it was sad and he's not a coder though, right? My understanding is he has a technical background but it's not like his core competency. I'm not exactly sure. My God, now that I don't agree with it, I think it's true. I think the mere fact that me and Aiden were able to create from just text and English stuff that we wanted.
We're going to talk about later. It's like proof that Som's going on here. But a lot of these guys do have some incentive as been shown in the past to be a little hyperbolic to be a little because there's money. You need to flow into the industry. Let me just say this upfront before.
“There is a ton of hype going on here and you should not buy into all the hype.”
What I'm trying to do here is give enough data points that you can be like, okay, something seems to have shifted. Right. Right to have gone beyond just the Twitter bros saying like, Hey, I'm so sick now, which has been happening every couple weeks for years now. This is like the big boys are now saying holy shit.
Something substantial has shifted. If we if I'm taking that 2080 to 80 20 switch face value, what is the reason that that happened? So we're we're sorting it out. The core of it is the. I think a lot of the drawbacks with AI coding is that one, it wasn't able to understand on a broad high level what was going on.
The instant you tried to tell it, hey, think about this broadly like a human would really be an architect here, really pick the high level direction of things. It would just kind of break down. It was not able to do this. You might have heard like context windows as a limiting factor for this. And another is that it's just wrong a lot of the time, right?
It's still hallucinates things. This is core, a critical like security features and other things.
So again, you could kind of use it as a scalpel for these individual tasks that if you're making code for real production, you still need to have an expert review it. And something seems to have shifted to where it can work on giant code bases like an actual company making a real product that is much bigger than what like you and I have been doing the past couple days and testing this out. And the mistakes are just much better as well as you can now kind of use it to supervise itself so you can say.
You have it right a whole bunch of new features and then you bring in another one to say review this for these specific mistakes that we've seen in the past, right? So they can keep just kind of tacking on more of these agents to review what's happening.
“Okay. You know, the truth is like I'm not hands on expert with this. I've been using this stuff, but the code bases that I use are simple enough that I haven't.”
You know, this stuff is done what I needed for months now if not years. So this is more people who work professionally are starting to go. Whoa, hold on. This can now work at our level. And that's why you're seeing that 80/20 shift. Yeah. Yeah, I definitely saw it from people. I even asked the friend who works. I mean, he's like he was considered the best coder at Twitch.
They called him the code Reaper because everyone else would write annoying long spaghetti code and he would come in and cut all the useless stuff. Yeah, you know, and he told me it's a big part of his workflow now. Like he doesn't, it's not. I mean, that's like he said. I don't know if he's changing the rest month or two, but it's a big part of his workflow to help get things done. I think it's why it's been so early seems to have been so dangerous for new grads because of what it's so good at. It's like, like you mentioned like it's a junior engineer that you can send them a one task right.
“Like it's been so devastating because that's what they would learn. That's what they would do if they were hired.”
And it's been, that's been the scariest part. Like the senior engineers don't seem to be super threatened by it. No, and so that's that's what suddenly kind of shifting is like if this thing before could do the work of an entry level person, but in limited capacity, but now all the sudden it is almost replacing senior engineers. You have car people like Carpathie and all these Google engineers and all these like high level people all saying on Twitter over the past couple weeks. Everything has changed for me. That's when you start to go, okay, something size, make a shifting and as a reminder, there's tens of millions of software engineering jobs in the world.
It's potentially a huge economic shift, just in jobs, let alone the fact that every company basically interfaces with software and some form.
So there's two angles to this interesting conversation. If we go with this hypothesis that there really is a massively forward. Not everybody agrees with this. I talked to Primegin recently and I was like, what do you think? Is it overhyped? And he's like, yeah, this is still a little overhyped.
Broadly, a lot of people are excited.
What is it going to do to companies like that? And then the second one is, what does it do to random people, like probably most of you listening who don't code and you guys.
And you can't really meet even. Yeah.
“So I think there's actually, even though this might not sound very interesting to the average person, quite a lot of consequence that could happen.”
The instant that AI gets to a point where any person can go to it and say, make me this thing. I want you to make me this thing and it just works because we are now getting to that point. So I asked both of you guys to create an app by just going to AI and asking it to make an app. Aiden, you, would you make want to pitch it? Yeah, I made a very simple checklist tool because I'm very dissatisfied with some of the like daily task, like trackers that I had.
Yeah, you made too. You also made a daily checklist tool. The economy is going to be revolutionized. Tasks lists are being vibed coded. Big mug, you're fucked. Well, I just thought it was a little bit. I just thought it was a little bit.
I made that is fucking insolent. I'm so embarrassed. Harry, pull that out.
Well, if you dare go ahead and listen to Harry, I'll marry it for the audio listeners.
Why didn't you tell you I had to make that prettier, dude? It'll do that for you. Well, I kind of thought it was pretty. I was actually really, this is your task list. Yeah, I was really stressed out. You have two tasks for today?
Well, no, I didn't, I haven't started using it yet. I just made this like last night. I wanted to make sure that I worked. Okay, so can you just. Okay.
Oh, genuinely like, this is like Monday. It's like Monday. I really wanted just simple nested tasks.
“I think one of my big issues is somebody who's used a bunch of like software tools for this before.”
And I do have a lot of my life in like notion and/or I've been playing around with like obsidian recently. It's not that these tools do not have the ability to create what I'm looking for. I'm pretty sure that they do. But what I wanted was like, what is like a very basic, basically like almost text purely text checklist. But I can just hide the trees of ideas, like very easily.
So one thing you can't do a notion when you create a checklist, right? Is you can't like click on it. Or I don't know how to do it. I don't know. You can't click on it and then like have all of the sub ideas just disappear on the page.
I want to click on it and then have it open into a bunch of like webs of tasks. And then go away as soon as I click one button and have no more interaction other than typing my idea and clicking on something.
I made the key takeaway here is that you are a user who has a very specific thing that you want.
And rather than scroll through documentation of how to set this up on Obsidian, I just typed my vague idea into ChadGVT and it made this and I was like, oh it looks. I didn't even think it would look nice. It looks nice. And then it gave me little features.
Like it lets me add like it tracks.
“How many if I mark, it has a percentage tracker of like how much I've done for the day.”
If I like check different things, it like calculates that. I can like easily x and like add ideas. I didn't say any of this. It just added it into the program as like little quality of life things that I liked. And I know this sounds so moronic as somebody who organizes this whole life and notion already.
But this is like it just instead of me like thumbling through the UI of notion or obsidian to like figure this out. I typed this. I literally typed a sentence into ChadGVT and it gave me this. So I thought that was pretty sick. No, this is the thing.
Like I pull mine up. It's the same basic thing to be honest. I actually use this on the deal. This is a, this is they not my actual tasks. Because I can't.
My real one's local on my computer machine. Okay. But this is the idea, right? So every day I have five things I want to do. They're not these five things.
But it's. And as I click them off, it fills up this little bar that it goes green. And at home. I literally have this and it's like some days are red. Some days are green.
And there's a lot of red for you. No, it's not. But it's not a red one. And when I see a red one, like I got to get back to the green. And it has helped me.
It's just a bugging. It's, and this was. Do you redact sections when you don't complete it? We can be redacted. Like you block them out when you're sharing the results with your friends.
I haven't. No one has seen the results. I just feel like we should get the full files of your a bit. The trackers. Right.
I see. Yeah, I see your saying. I think. I mean, this is a pivot to a different example outside of this recently. The reason why I this made me so stupidly happy is because the.
It's really annoying to like search through documentation of software to try and figure things out. And then it as maybe I'm just to ADHD. It impedes me from using the software effectively.
I have this issue with on key because I use it to study language.
Yeah. To set up on key properly, get a deck that functions in the right way. All of all of these different things. They're their own layers of friction to accomplishing the task. And what I really want, I want to be lazy.
And I want on key to be set up perfectly with the perfect deck to perfectly study the language. So that I can just click into on key and have exactly what I want set up immediately. And recently there's like this. Language like learning company called refold that I've followed for a long time before it was even named that. And I had followed their approach for studying Chinese for six months during COVID.
And I really liked it. But I had lost some of the tools that I had to set up on key at the time. And the, you know, it's a different language.
“So don't have the same deck or resources or audio files to study that language, right?”
Recently, I found out one of the main people that runs refold is a fan of this show. And he reached out to me. We had a coaching session.
And he basically set everything up for me.
And I've been doing it every day for like a week. And it's the law. You don't need AI. All right. You don't need AI.
You don't need AI. And then they'll reach out. And this is all incredibly, like, this is incredibly privileged in lazy example of what I'm looking for. But chat GPT in this is servicing the same thing. And that, like, it took out all the little layers of friction that are preventing me from like doing this thing in the way that I want to.
And I just fed it an idea of what I want. And it output basically exactly what I wanted. And that's, that is surprising to me. It's taking all of the, like, the layers of trying to understand some other software of how to build something out within it. And just solving it.
No, maybe more direct. I looked up tracking apps that do exactly what mine does. They just cost money. They cost like a buck 99 or two, but on. And so that money, you know what I'm saying?
It's now it's free. And so that explains to me why these stocks are dropping. That is a small scale microcosm. Microsoft example of, like, okay, I can see. Because if you're finding a way to do language learners,
then of course, do a little bit of stock is going to drop. They're going to have to either offer for you cheaper or whatever. So yeah, I get it. I can see this guy. Okay, yeah, I also want to pitch something you guys and maybe, you know, let it cook where you're bringing up your next talk.
“Okay, which is, I think on top of what we just said, what is interesting is there's a lot of people who work at a job where you do some kind of task.”
You do something that maybe you're, kind of communicating with a team and organizing tasks. Like we just have done, but maybe it's about processing information that comes in. Maybe it's about presenting pitch decks. All of these things can be done now. Basically any kind of workflow you have at a professional environment can be handled by these things at this point to like 99% accuracy.
And there's even, like, Claude code is the most kind of talked about programming model right now to the most excited one. But really all of them are able to do this. You can just like give it your life.
Like your emails and your passwords and say, here's what I do for work.
Here's what I do every day, just like do as many things as possible for me. I'm starting to do it and I'm curious for you guys, if you see anything, if anything jumps to mind, you aid and run a very chaotic production company for Ludwig that has, you know, dozen plus employees, tons of different processes. You have the yard, the heat of all the productions. And I would imagine that whether it's you or other people in your company probably could make a lot of little tools that are shared amongst the team that just process things, make it easier.
You just have custom software and tools like created in five minutes.
“A hundred percent, I think what we do now is the there there is this battle at small companies in my experience where people will bounce between like management software is like a sauna or Trello or Monday.”
And they'll try to like land on one that like everybody likes or or even like JIRA, right? And and you'll just you have name more tech companies in this episode. You've done free ads for like what 40 you said, you've said like 15 different companies. But none of them have anything on Adobe Acrobat Studio. What?
What? What? No. I'm speaking freely. No, I know you've really just funny.
You just are listed a lot of companies. Well, yeah, even in my work experience across this is my experience across the tech companies and the production companies that I've worked at up until now. Like I've tried all of these different softwares across all of them and people have like usually niche complaints about how these things work within my team, how these things fit into the company and what we do. Because naturally like all these large companies are trying to provide an all in one platform solution that every company can fit and mold themselves into and then charge you a bunch of people before.
But if you could just yet exactly what Doug is saying, if I could just sit down with like the production team at mogul, which is basically three people.
Say, guys, what like what do we actually need for like our organizing needs?
And I type that in a paragraph into this and then we create that version of what our company needs to say organized.
Then that's then that's fantastic.
“The only thing you sacrifice is if you need to like share and distribute information or files between companies like maybe there's something sacrifice there.”
Like your ability to like send your work to other companies you're collaborating with. Maybe yeah, but we're rapidly closing the gap on that replet is a website that basically same thing you go to replet and so for people who want to try this home you go to replet REPLIT and their pitch now. Is you go there and you say I want this app exactly like what you did or what you did except replet will then just host it on the internet is just instantly an app on the internet with a database all set up. We do that let's show it.
Yeah, but the point yeah zoo the point being that even what you're talking about of like well it's cool for this little thing. I'm doing it my company we are really rapidly reaching the point at which you can say okay now put this online make sure all of my team can sign into it. Make sure these clients can sign into it right. Follow to say an example of where this isn't going the same direction or I'm less are more skeptical. There was people was not very.
Google had a.
What was the name of their service?
It was a genie three. Oh this thing yeah they launched genie three were essentially it would generate a new video game world that you could walk around in for 60 seconds. And immediately a bunch of bunch of gaming stocks got cut now like a bunch of gaming stocks all dropped similar to the productivity software. And then it almost immediately you know a few days weeks later started to bounce back because people realize like this is nowhere close enough like there is. Yeah, unlike this this is not even in the realm of like none of the gameplay was even remotely close to a real actually playing a game.
“It was just sort of generating images that faked the look of other games kind of wasn't right there's and so I think.”
At least in this area felt like it was way way more hype to kind of it's time will tell. This is this is so we just read this book called if anyone builds it everyone dies which is about the idea of super intelligence getting created in like the consequences of that but in that book the quote I'll quote that stuck with me was. The AI you look at now is the most shallow it will ever be. And we're talking about you know even in the range of like coding these types of apps right now the rate of improvement and the consequences of it on something like the stock market like you're showing earlier.
It's like this could easily turn around within a few years and be something substantial. I think I'm kind of done with my era of like looking at AI. Seeing it be bad and being like, I'll be dog shit forever. It's like it's undoubtedly going to just improve whether it be you know whether it be in two years or ten years or so sure. Sure sure, yeah.
It's going to be dramatically. I just think they thought it was a lot quicker when the initial. Right. Yeah, but I mean, I want to make sure I explicitly state this a lot of this is overhyped.
Okay, even what we're talking about now, I don't think the average person is going to go make a prototype on their computer and then you can turn that into a million dollar business.
And so a couple couple shortcomings that are obvious. One, those security issues I mentioned, still there. Two, if you don't know how to set up a server and maintain it, there's going to be problems. The incident you try to make this into a real business. Malt book has been this crazy ash thing recently. It's like an AI Reddit that that was created and then it turned out that the guy who made it didn't write a line of code.
He vibe coded the whole thing. The database was wide open and permissionless. So anybody could do anything with the database. And it got taken over by crypto bros promoting crypto scams. And as my friend prime put in a video he put out today.
The worst plague on humanity is crypto bros on social media. So I'm certainly not trying to say every software company is done.
“But I think it's important to recognize that unlike a lot of the AI hype this does in the last two months,”
seem to be jumping above the kind of noise. And let's get to my vibe coded at most importantly. Oh yeah. So I made a lemonade stand comment as an analyzer if you pull this up, Perry. So you can you can link a video and then it will actually show.
Who got the most mentions on a given episode? This is the world's getting riskier. So in got the most mentions, I got the least on that one. I actually did it with a couple others. I got the most mentions on it.
But 50% positive comments. That's nice. Maybe I was hoping that Doug would. Would like you could put in the link to one of our clips channels videos. And then all the people that have commented on it would just drop dead.
It would be vaporized. Look at the topic in chopping breakdown. We got US foreign policy control perceptions. Humor was only 10% of that episode. Okay.
We got the co-host power rankings. Aiden V. Braini common to you. I got Brady Observer.
That's not the casual truth teller.
I do really think of myself as a truth teller on this podcast.
This is really funny.
“Well, I think only one willing to say AI is cool.”
Yeah. So this was, you know, a fun. My charisma score. So yeah, we got a word cloud. We said Trump and Greenland.
That would probably say Greenland more than the word it's. And then there's Bingo for the next episode to see if you can guess what we're talking about. I'm y'all getting Gerald Ford on the pod. You're not the most asked question. This is one of your fake shit.
No, no, no, no. This is legit. That should not be the most asked question. I do live forever, scarred from his rod pole with the fake, the fake data. Yeah.
Yeah. No, no, no, this is, I mean, let me, let me say this. This is really based off of open AI's interpretation of the comments. Okay. But there's no possible way the number one question is when are we getting Gerald Ford on the pod?
No, we'll be on this. It has open AI. How many friends the clips channels commenters have? You guys want us to get dead president. Gerald Ford on the pod.
Let us know in the comments.
Well, that's because I have a, look, I think the people are asking for Gerald Ford.
Let us know in the comment. If you, I really push in for some Gerald Ford coverage because that's, we talk about it all the time. We don't talk about Gerald Ford. No, we don't talk about it all the time. No, we don't talk about it all the time.
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We don't talk about it all the time. Yeah, I don't know. I see the benefit of the tool. That benefit to myself. These are all the time. It's fucking incredible.
You use it as a private tutor and you think of it like that.
“I think the theme of what we've talked about is when you use it in some sort of supplemental capacity to learn something.”
It's really incredible. A lot of the time it can be used to skip that entirely. You can just get the end result. Yeah. Instantly and get that gratification.
And that comes with its own set of consequences.
If you're doing that with everything all the time.
And it's very easy for humans to make that choice.
Because we make similar choices. Like, of course, I'll get the sour patch watermelons today. H-Oxet. That's not going to be a great box on today's checklist. Show candy free for a moment.
I'm losing my mind. Just because every time we wrap up a thing, we're like, hey, you guys want to go to the nearby like 7-11 to get 8-8 trioxos. Yeah. I want to get some candy. But not recently.
Not recently. Not this year. Not this year. You're a health or whatever. You're a health baby.
But yeah. I wonder.
“That's, I think, unfortunately, humans most of the time will pick that easy.”
Yeah. They're going through the arduous process. And I don't know how to gauge the consequence of that in this season. Yeah. I can see it play out in some places like education already.
Yeah. I'm getting worried. Yeah. As much as AI is 100% good with no nuance.
As you always say, and I say that's on our team.
So here, I'm going to give you guys a concrete example of this exact problem that is very strange. The last three weeks. I decided that I want to learn how to make web apps. I've never really done because I think it'd be fun for content this year.
I have a bunch of interesting app ideas. I think that would be cool. I have some very, very, very basic knowledge from 12 years ago in college. But essentially, have not done this before. So I have been using AI to generate lesson plans for me.
That I go through. It gives me problems to solve and do. I then ask questions. So I started with JavaScript. Teach me all the fundamentals.
Then like basically a recars on CSS and HTML going through the basics. Then interacting with those two. Then moving on to a versel server and then managing a database. And then doing live notifications via pusher.
“And I've gone through like the core flow of what you need to learn to do basic web apps.”
And my experience is that in about three weeks using AI to teach me like this has maybe been like 10 times faster than how I learned this in college. And I say this not to brag, but I went to like an extremely good computer science school and have a computer science degree from there. And this taught me so much faster than the same school taught me well development 12 years ago.
I am like shocked at how effectively I have been able to learn this stuff. So let's say I spent 50 hours learning. And then I made this demo application to just showcase everything I did. I mean, it's definitely that could be your self-directed motivated.
Like, you know, it's always been the case, right?
It's that's what we're going to, yeah. You could learn on YouTube if you were like super interested in learning something. I mean, that's what we all did. What software engineers used to do is that you would Google and go to Stack Overflow in YouTube all day every day. That's what coding was always been a little slower, just because it's.
Yeah, I have issues with the way the university system. Yeah, sure. And so what's what's weird is I've spent three weeks learning some fundamentals. I then spent, I don't know, 30 hours maybe making a demo app on stream that I like finish and showcase all these pieces. And all of that work, all of that learning could have been done in five minutes with a single prompt.
Of course, the follow-up is, well, now you learn, right?
“And you'll be able to use this in the future.”
But I am in a weird position right now where here's an example. I have an idea for a chess stream. I want to do chess versus another streamer where we have a board. But every other turn, a new random rule gets added into the game. Like a road like you get to pick which one.
So I'm like, I should make that into a web app where both on the website. It's all live. I could right now do that. I know enough. And that would probably take 50 to 100 hours.
I could literally tell AI to do it and it's done in 10 minutes. And there's a real decision here of like, do I just do that? I could start the stream today if I wanted to do that. Do I decide to just do 30 out of the 50 hours?
Do I do 50 out of the 50 hours? I have this strange decision to make on literally every project of how much do I just want to have the magic coding God do it for me. And then you know, review it at the end. The verse is taking the time to do it myself. It's weird.
You talked to Nick about this, didn't you? Yeah. Then you have a long conversation. So Nick from the yard, if you're not familiar, runs a. On the list.
Land. He's one of the, he's one of the three. You really, you're knocking down. You're making me easy. He runs a call of duty land in the mogul office.
Every couple of weeks called PSL. And what he had done to a prep this was he wrote his own mod for Call of Duty. Built off the back of an old mod, but improved in a bunch of different ways. And in order to do this, he had learned a bunch of how to code from. Auto and then chat GPT.
Right. And through this process, he came to this large. Personal ethical problem of. He realized that he could skip a lot of the difficulty of this task and forego the learning of it. Right.
By just letting chat GPT do it and kind of just. Like a coin flipping until it got what he wanted correct.
He decided to take the longer path and like make sure he like properly learne...
And it was a very principled decision of his to approach it this way. Even though he could knew he knew he could do it all in less time. If he went the normal like chat GPT just spit it out for me. Right. And he and I think he is in the minority of people who will make that decision.
Yeah.
“Like I think you have to be very driven and principled and maybe also have a lot of free time.”
Yeah.
You know, the reality is it's a fucking privilege that I get to spend 50 hours learning web development, right?
The average person working a job taking their family isn't going to have that option. And on top of that, let's say you're trying to make a business. And you're somebody who's like, I'm going to learn this all the right way. And then you have 100 people just just blitzing everything out with AI, right? Yeah.
It's like this like Nick isn't competing with anybody in that context. No. But if all your coworkers are doing it. If all the students in your class are doing it, if everybody you know is doing it all the time, then how do you possibly justify sitting there and doing the long principled route?
I don't I feel like that's hard and I am very concerned about this. I am very concerned that people are not going to really take the time to learn things. I'm concerned about education broadly. Yeah. Yeah.
Weird. The. There is. It just left my head. He's been.
He's been. He had a question. Yeah. He's been. He's brain is mush now.
He's his crisis. He vodka's one. One. But he can't remember a damn thing. James these days.
The question we're done.
“If he's taking this time to actually think your own thoughts.”
Yeah. If you to thought. It was. Chat TVT. What was my thought?
What was it? How do I tell us the podcast? It's been a while like most of the past what four episodes. It's like before we start goes into chat with you and says what joke should I make on this episode. I want everybody to think I'm funny.
But it's some point man. Yeah. It's some point. We're going to bring in another person who uses chat with even more. They're going to have 10 times more jokes.
I'm going to have 10. I was thinking a little bit about the irony of the learn to code movement from a few years ago because imagine imagine the best case version of that. Like you're you're like a 50 year old guy who maybe lost his job around that time. Coding is in such this ups huge upswing.
Tech companies are exploding. Valuation startups. And you go to a coding book camp. You stick it out. It's a little hard.
You're struggling. But you you're certified and you actually do better than most people because you study and you work really hard. And you're you're maybe junior programmer capable out of all of that. Just at the cost of AI.
You can you out of these jobs. And it's I feel like it's the juxtaposition of those two eras is like really unfortunate. I don't think it learned to code was necessarily this insanely successful campaign. I do think it pushed a lot of people into coding boot camps and stuff. But there is this.
I do think it's unfortunate that.
We seem to be at the precipice of if you're not the most incredible
coder already. If you're not an auto who has been doing it since he was like 10. Yeah. He and making the wildest random shit for Ludwig. Then you're not.
You might not have a place. I think about a lot of my friends who came out of their undergrad. And just had that experience. They went into college with no coding experience. Decided to study CS came out of that.
And they all tell me that their college experience has no matched.
“What the junior programmer life is like coming into that first job.”
To be fair. And we felt that like 12 years ago too. But yes, even more. But now. But now instead of getting hired and trained and taught.
Yeah, there was a job. You're running into the position where something is automating away. What little skill you came out of. Yes. Yes.
And that's that's again why I think this last two months is different. Because again, talking to my friend who's a genius programmer who is an engineering manager who managed a team nine months ago was like, AI is really helpful, but you need a person. People are still going to learn. They're going to do the best job.
You need them to review it.
And now you have people all sorts of incredible programmers going like,
Yeah, this stuff's just going to do everything. You know, I think a year ago I was feeling for somebody who's studying CS or trying to get into these jobs of like, Yeah, it's going to be rougher than it was for me. But like, I think if you work through it, you get this chance. And this is fucking concerning, man, because how many entry level jobs are going to exist when when you can type their job.
And I can like, do it. Oh, man, people like when I my first job out of college, you'd have interns come in and in a summer. They would do what I could do in like three days. Yeah. That was the discrepancy.
And then if the idea. Oh, man, it's I'm thinking about what my first job was at Twitch, which was like organizing and handling the front page.
You could do that with a chance you could be prompt in two seconds right now.
100 100% I did that for for at least six months.
We're like, got my feet under me for the job. And they just needed someone to do this bullshit job. And I just had to do it. It's kind of a busy work. That job can be done instantly.
So it is like, it is a rug pull. It is a rug pull on on. People go on their score right now. Could we talk about the pro, one of the bigger pros out of this. So if you were, if you were, if you were,
if you were, recall in episode, where we interviewed the president of Shopify. Lock me up. Lock me up for mentioning that. Okay. Oh, I thought you were saying, like Shopify or whatever.
“But I think I think actually a really strong point.”
He had was the for those people who are. Have some sort of idea and they want to create a company out of it. There I use the loaded word entrepreneur. This, I do think there's a lowers a bunch of barriers for you bringing your idea to fruition, right? You're tearing down a lot of the like last restrictions of what enables an individual to pursue that idea.
At least in the digital space because the internet and its proliferation have already enabled people to create a bunch of ideas on their own. And then this is like the next level of that of like for people who have concepts, but maybe didn't have the time to go like learn how to code or go to school or study it in some way. Like they can now turn to this, type in their idea of what they want to make. And that maybe becomes the business that they want to.
Yeah, or at the very least a prototype that they could then see if it works. And then if it works, they, you know, then bring in people to turn it into something substantial. I think it's still. It's not as across the non technical barrier yet. I don't think it has as somebody's done technical and it's tried to make something more serious than this.
Well, if you're coding like apps like yours. No, mine is, mine is doable, but I tried to make something more difficult, which required. I wanted it to like screenshot every tweet that I bookmark, then put the analysis of what that tweet meant in a searchable file. Mm-hmm. It was just, and it was like telling me how to do it.
And it just got too technical.
“It was like, you have to do this and make the server.”
And it was like, once that final step is over, it's going to be crazy. And I could already tell, but it's not, like the average person's going to hit that barrier that I hit and be like, Yeah, the only thing missing is for some people to go make a website that just does that piece for you. Like it technically it can do that now. And now what people are going to go do is make businesses like replant with a whole point is that you go there and you're like,
I just have this. We just need a little bit of information from you, but then it literally will go to every single one. Like it's it's almost there and you're going to see this happen over the next couple months. Um, I do want to talk about. Listen, I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, oh, if it's over the course of this show, I've been more and more believe it.
There's something real with this technology. So I mean, I mean, there's a lot of bad outcomes I'm seeing, but it's also good outcomes. And like it's clearly, it's not, in any way, like, what I thought of crypto, which is like, it was, and it's just not changing anything and I could wait a year and say same thing. Yeah, every year with AI, it's like there's something like that.
You always say that. You always say I stand by it.
“But if you just ignored crypto from the beginning, your life is not changed.”
Like it, you could completely, but with AI, it's different. You say it's different. Monero gets the job when you need to buy it. When you do buy a hitman and if you need to pay it for an Eastern European hitman, There's only one thing you're joking, you can use that.
So I do want to say, but I have also not changed my opinion that there is some financial Tom Foulario fluid. It is a bit of a financial. Ooh, we can talk about the companies. There's all sorts of weird shit. There's some weird shit that companies right now.
I want to talk about the Nvidia stuff if you don't mind. Yeah, let's get into it. So he pulls up Perry. And real quick context to this, all this crazy glass month or two of people going,
Holy shit, this really is amazing at programming now that largely came from
anthropic. They're the kind of big winners right now. But then a Chinese company came out with a Kimmy 2.5. This was like a week or two ago, which is as good and it's open source. And now people like, oh, and then yesterday opening I launched a codex code, which is basically the same thing as cloud code.
And so all of them are like trying to eat at this lunch. Yeah, they're all throwing, again, billions of dollars of the wall on things. And they're certainly, they're currently basically free or very cheap. And a little side story, I can't say the name. I don't even want to give out to give so few details.
But I know people working into nuclear industry in America, who tell me that they are making AI products that help like with compliance and sorting files and getting to things done for nuclear industry. And they're like, it's just too expensive to use the big models.
Behind the scenes, all of us and all of our competitors use Kimmy.
So Chinese models aren't doing all of the, because it's just cheaper per token or whatever. So it's like a lot of startups, not even in the new, a lot of startups in America, or all using the open source Chinese models. Well, off-shoring our tokens. Which is like, which is interesting, which is like a bit of an undercut.
But anyway, so you might have seen this. This is like the circular circle jerk funding that is like a big, a big, a special point. You know, Nvidia gave a hundred, but this is a big deal back in the day.
A few months ago, Nvidia invested a hundred billion dollars in open AI.
Who then said they're going to use the money to buy data centers from Oracle, who's going to use the money to buy chips from video to other nationers. And everyone's like, oh, it's kind of a circular deal. Well, recently, Jensen Wong, some drama happened. His Jensen Wong CEO in video goes off the cuff.
He's like, yeah, um, that a hundred billion was really more of like, uh, it wasn't a commitment. It wasn't a hard commitment. It was like, we're going to invest a lot in opening AI. And as things come, we're going to put a lot of money.
We're going to figure it out. But we're not necessarily a hard dollar amount, which everyone goes, wait a minute. Like the other hundred billion was guaranteed. Like they're doing it.
And so there's a bit of a panic. So, uh, wait, I want to steer.
It's never a commitment, since Jensen Wong.
And then there's become a bit of a messy drama because that starts freaking a Oracle stock if you go back to this hurdle, oracle stock tanks almost immediately because they're like,
“well, how is Oracle going to get the money from open AI?”
If they don't have it, if Jensen's not giving it from the media? Like that. Well, clearly Oracle just needs to give more money to Nvidia. Right. Right.
This reminds me of when the three of us go to the 7/11, that usually one of the three of us pays. And so most of the time, it's free for me. Right. Um, and then you would check on Larry.
Is he doing okay? Larry, is it Larry? Oh, because we got to talk about TikTok. You're not sure he's stoked about that. But just to finish this up, so it got messy.
Um, this scares almost everybody down from open AI. Because they're like, hey, we need you to have this money. You've made a lot of promises for a lot of things. And if there's any shakenness about your building to get money and pay us, that freaks all out.
So in response to, like, kind of put Nvidia on edge. Oh, put AI. Leaks this story. Like it somehow just gets the news. Or open AI is like, oh, well, actually we're pretty unsatisfied with Nvidia chips.
“We can really, I think other chip companies are doing a lot better,”
which made Nvidia stock tank because it's like, oh, we could get AMD or someone else. So they're all kind of being messy. Diva's and throw a little message to each other, which is causing all their stocks to kind of reverse circle jerk.
And they're all going down into circle. So it's a bit of an unwanted. And I do want to say, I'm standing by what I said in our bridge and things. Open AI is the real messy one in this group. They just don't have the money for a lot of things that are coming
to really quick. Maybe ads, like you said, will come out and make a boat load. But it is becoming more and more obvious. We get closer to the groundbreaking on these data centers. That someone's got to pay for them and they don't have the money right now.
Thoughts weren't given up data on that if you've heard some of the story there. Yeah, opening AI is some additional context for this. They're interesting. Again, they make a chat to BT. And last year, like at the beginning,
Sam Altman tweeted and was like, yeah, we now have a path. We see a concrete path to AGI to like super intelligence. And then they released chat to BT five in the summer. And it was broadly considered to be a disappointment of not necessarily that it was even bad. But that it was not living up to what was supposed to be like the shoe.
Like the huge thing. They've been having founders and key people leave for a while. You know, we talked about this before already. But they're adding ads into chat to BT, which Sam Altman said that is like our last resort for our product.
Even though ads probably makes a lot of sense when you have 700 million people.
They just have hiring too. They just like they said he's slowing down hiring a bunch of big senior engineers. And he said left. Yeah, they're calling code red. They're saying they missed the mark on the coding side of things.
And they phob, you know, and or it's saying that they missed the mark on creativity stuff. And they were trying to focus on coding too much. Meanwhile, anthropic, who again is done this Claude code, you know, But Anza right now, they nine X to their revenue last year. They had a one billion run rate at the beginning of 2025 and ended with a nine billion.
Wow. And that was reported. So I didn't get 100% confirmation on it. But I, I really like what they're doing. They're doing great research.
But on the counter side, look, this a look how great Sora is doing, Which would they focus on. They focus on AI, Slop, short form video. Turns out that Pete pretty soon after launch and daily users weigh down. They haven't made any money on it.
Turn out to be a big fucking.
“So I mean, I think there's a real, you know, we talked about this on a different episode.”
But like it, it feels like they're getting squeezed by Claude.
I once had and Google on the other.
And it's like getting more and more scary.
Yeah. And it doesn't, this doesn't make any sense. Because who would not pay $20 a month to make anthropomorphic cats like cheat on each other. In an area of video. Or to see SpongeBob hang out with Rick and Morty.
You know, we're off. That's awesome. That's worth. You talk to this source free, right? No, it's free to watch.
Free to watch. Free to watch the answer. There, there's some, there's some wild shit on there. I don't look at it regularly.
“But I check in like once a month just to be like, what's going over there?”
And it's, it's got wild shit. And occasionally somebody sends me one that's, that's really funny. Like a cat being needed like it's a ball of dough. And I'm like, that's, that's weird, but kind of cute and funny. And I don't know if this, I don't know if that will cover the one trillion dollar data center.
So yeah, you know, top tape is those right in like November, maybe going in December. Disney goes, well, this is inevitable. So we're going to lose, we're going to lose our IP if we don't get on board. And they invest a billion dollars to do it. To like give them free rights to make Mickey Mouse fucking.
And then right after that. Disney, I mean, we were doing a business side of this.
I was always about Disney because they're about to get a new CEO.
But let's get over this. Okay, speaking of brands, everybody loves tick talk. We love tick talk. Or did love it? I'm not clear.
I don't use tick talk. I haven't been in a while. I really really look at me like that. They're sick of pressing Ludwig Ogren's fees. No, they are fucking not by the way.
They're pressing Ludwig's fees. I logged into tick talk for the first time this morning to see what it looks like now. First two tick talks was, you know, it generic LA influencer showing their mansion. Next tick talk, Ludwig.
Doing it. So pressing us. Suppressed. It's viral voice thing. The next one, him doing this.
Uh, what I would say is a gut wrenchingly horrific dance for Cutie Cinderella. And then it became five about Hassan. Like that was literally the ten. I tracked it.
What are the ten? And so you're also terrible. This impression, although I quite think a suppression stuff I did. You, I don't know if you guys had seen. There's like all these things about like the Minnesota.
I get a stuff getting suppressed on Reddit. That was going around. Yeah.
“And I was like, I found, I think I found out about it because of the 12 threads on our slash all about it.”
Yeah. If they're suppressing it, they're doing a pretty bad job. Yeah. But that's what with the tick talk. I think the tick talk stuff.
My understanding was like, there's some sort of transition during this period. Like some videos or like getting. Uh, are just not hitting the algorithm or being shown to people in some way. And then anyone who is putting their content up during this time period is like. And it was like politically sensitive.
They're like they're sensory. And it's. Yeah. But I do think people have this lens of like this political thing didn't take off. I'm being suppressed.
But then you could go find 10 examples of the same thing popping off. Oh, right. Around the same time period. So what I'll say is I look into this. And I saw all the people saying, Oh, my god.
This industry's gone crazy. And I want to look into it. I think there is a real argument because based on public statements by. Larry Ellis sentence and people in the senior management now on TikTok. There is a.
They have the capability of filling with the weights and the numbers to suppress or. But but this example is not like what's happening now is not.
“I think it's worth to be angry about like, Oh, my god, all these.”
There's few cabal of billionaires own more more of our media. Yeah, a hundred percent. But you know, like for example, all of the NFL videos were at zero views with this. They're not suppressing the damn MFL. Like it was there was no evidence from where I could find that people were.
Actually, it was just a server transition caused a lot of things. They're doing that they're not good at making TikTok. That's the problem. Yeah. Yeah.
So quick, you know, quick context. Now that we've described the thing with no context, which is that. TikTok was finally sold.
There's a it's now like a US subsidiary basically that controls the American version of it.
Same CEO as before. Mr. Show chew. But now the US CEO's Adam Presser who's been working there for a while. Also, like speaks fluent Chinese worked worked as a senior director for ticket master in China. Which is kind of random.
And chief security officer is will feral. I didn't look up if that's the actor or not. You think the actor will feral. I is the chief security officer. It says.
That the chief security officer for TikTok is now will feral. That sounds right. Will does a block job. He's a drummer for. Yeah, he does he does a lot of things. You're right. Absolutely correct.
Yeah, so it's weird about this. It's, you know, now largely owned by Oracle. It's basically like 50% new investors. 30% previous investors in bite dance, the Chinese own company. And now it's 19.9% owned by bite dance, which is the rule that was required by law.
Because our government said TikTok is basically a Chinese asset and needs to ...
So they've sold off as much as they possibly can.
But what's stupid is that the algorithm is being licensed by bite dance to American TikTok. And then American TikTok is retraining the algorithm on American TikTok data. They're connecting more data than before. They now, the collector precise location data on top of all the other stuff. Like sexual orientation and citizenship and all this other stuff.
So it's like more. It's it's more data tracking than before. It's still an algorithm run and fundamentally developed by the Chinese company. They're just sort of adding security in quotes on top of it. Yeah, I mean, you know, and I don't even know if welfare is qualified to. I think the best part of this.
I see him in the front. That's why it's a busy guy. He's going to be in two Montgi three. I mean, he's going to be fine coding the security. I don't want to make shitty dance to spread to people who are authorized.
They shouldn't surprise. They shouldn't surprise. They should suppress this TikTok.
“That's what I'm saying is like all of this controversy over the new owners of the app.”
And people were like, I'm deleting think I'm getting off. I was like, well, whether it's real or not, this is a good. You know, like, because there's a lot of evidence has come out recently. More and more that short for video is just a fucking brain. It is just destroying your brain.
And so people were quitting. And I was like, well, whatever reason they're quitting, it's good. However, immediately after fixing whatever glitch was causing zero views, every so-called boycott or has come back. I mean, people will say, maybe I didn't do that.
I came back.
The TikTok user base has rebounded exactly to 90 million daily users after a brief dip post ownership change.
So the so-called boycott's completely not born out in the data. I'm kind of surprised by that to be honest. I thought that the boycott would have a little more legs, given how many essentially identical options there are. You know, that's reals in shorts.
That's the more surprising part to me is you really do have simple alternative. People are addicted. I think people are not facing up to how insanely addicted there are. I would also as an audience thing. I think for my own mental health, I try to avoid shorts and all this.
And it's why I don't go on TikTok.
“But for people who are more deeply ingrained in that culture,”
if you don't know like leave in comments or something. And let us know why you think people are sticking with it, even despite all the alternatives. I would really be curious because it does seem like they have something going on that makes people stay there.
Yeah, I don't know what that is. I do. I had a resolution this year to kick short form video. In Thailand, I've stayed pretty much. I don't have a TikTok account.
Yeah, I don't watch that loving video though. I'll send that to you. I haven't seen it dancing yet. Anyway, does that include Sora? You still have Sora?
No, he caught a bit of TikTok so he could watch more Sora. Sora? He's on five and Sora. Sora doesn't even care. Sora doesn't care.
No one goes on for it. And like Instagram when I feel like it's on upscrolling. He's on. He's just finding different. No.
And TikTok really doesn't count. It's not even owned by by dancing anymore. Yeah, he's bad. I was a big YouTube store. It's guy.
I've successfully watched, I haven't watched YouTube shorts for so long that my YouTube homepage switch the way it displays videos. Wow. That's cool. That's crazy.
Because if it used to be, if you watch it, you're saying it's gave up. You're saying YouTube gave up on trying to convince your cool friend trying to get you to hang out. Like, offering you a bottle of shorts every night. Like, come on. That's kind of what you're doing.
When they, they really started integrating it into the app. If you didn't click them and you're only watched long form, it displays long form options first when you open the app, right?
“And then you have to scroll down to see shorts.”
Yeah. But if you clicked on enough shorts in the app, it just started delivering you the shorts at the top. And it was like that for me for, I don't know, like a year and a half. Because I started watching.
For a whole time. Yeah. I scroll. Yeah. It's half a pack of days.
It's not the bad, it's never more.
And then I, and I haven't watched any shorts. And I think, like, a movie of Missants of all kinds of stuff. Let me tell you, the shorts culture's been great. And you are out of the-- I miss it.
You're Missing Bang. I have FOMO. Yeah. But, uh, yeah. How are you able to connect to human beings without being able to relate to your personal life?
Extremely lonely. That's, that's the problem. If you delete TikTok, no one will talk to you. And real life. Yeah.
That is the main peer to peer connection network. All right. So we got to approach the lemonade stand to do an ad for the league dating app. The problem is we are all currently in relationships. Hmm.
So, a net idea. I sent them our friend that we put basketball with every week.
Eli and I said, he's--
He's a-- He's a-- I'm shooting. I'm shooting. I'm shooting.
I'm shooting. He's the dating app.
And, uh, gave it-- gave it his best shot because he-- he's used a variety of dating apps
with pros and cons for each of them. But for the league, he's been on there for a little bit. And he did-- he actually sent me-- he sent me what he-- what he liked about the app. He was like, the people I see here and to be way more mature, driven, career-oriented. People looking for serious relationships, which is what he wants.
Okay. And then also, he likes that it only shows you new people once a day at 5 p.m. So he's not scrolling or wasting your energy at all. And that's what I'm talking about. That's what I'm talking about.
That's what I'm talking about. And here's the thing. More is it better? Better is better. The league finds someone in yours down on the app in a part of the day.
You could be like, "Ela, you can't come by basketball with this stuff." [laughs] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] No, not at all.
Like Stoyer is my safe space. Hmm, do you think you can do everything? Yeah, exactly.
“Like Stoyer is the key to the Stoyer app, which is simply different.”
The game of the studio, the job, or the music. It's crazy. I don't feel like Stoyer. Stoyer is the lead. Stoyer?
With like Stoyer. It's right out. It's make this on him with the above of the month van. No Nutella, it's Nutella. Did you want to talk about entrepreneurship?
Yeah, let's do it. All right. This is backtracking a little bit. Okay. We have been a pretty negative on AI.
And I'm going to say, no, let me leverage that.
I think we have talked very just to finally about the serious concerns that are happening
with AI. One of the, uh, it particularly job loss and the pitch of like, go make apps. I had a great conversation with somebody in the discord, um, named Iron, who basically made a point where they, they expressed a lot of concern about how this AI, entrepreneurship stuff is being marketed at young people and how a lot of it's in bad faith and encouraging
“people to sort of like, and don't do that stable career, like you should try to make”
it big with like an AI app, um, and just talked about their own experience of basically like young men, in particular, being told, go become a chat dropshipper, making a hundred K a month and that that is can really be deeply harmful. And we talked about an example in the show of the guy from. Yeah, he's a legend.
Yeah, this was the right. This was our story. It was a patreon episode. Yeah. And we talked about this guy who just does fraud, yeah, I don't really know being a positive.
No, it wasn't. But we talked a little bit about like, oh, you know, people running businesses could be a good thing. You know, we're being able to have more access to this stuff. And I think that conversation is particularly relevant right now, given the advent of these
programming tools getting so advanced. Um, and so I, well, my initial response to to iron's comment was to get a little defensive and be like, no, I entrepreneurship is going to be great. And I did actually, I really step back for a little bit and said, hold on, no, this is right.
I think for a lot of people, this is not a good avenue. And I think there's a lot of hype on particularly Twitter, but a lot of areas of people saying, like, eh, I can do this now. You got to go use it to get rich and that that is concerning and that we need to be really
“upfront about the costs of entrepreneurship, about how difficult it is that you need to, you're”
going to potentially sacrifice a safer path. And that might not be a good decision for a lot of people. And then on the counter side, I want to, and here you guys, lots make a pitch for entrepreneurship and why I think it's valuable.
First off, my entire family has a history of this stuff.
I will spare you with the details. But you know, my whole life, essentially, my adult life has been pursuing my dreams extremely relentlessly. And that's what makes my life fulfilling and meaningful to me. I had a nice stable job at a college.
It was fucking boring. And I would have gone insane if that's what I did forever. And that would have been the same thing to do that. Instead, I left all that and tried you to multiple times until it finally landed. And 95% of entrepreneurship attempts are going to fail and I get that, but I think that
there is a percentage of people in this world who are like me for whom it is important to go make and do things. I think both of you guys are like that, that we all know people like this. It's not everybody. And we shouldn't market that type of thing to everybody.
And I'm trying to be more careful with the way we talk about this to not say like, anybody could make an app now. Go do it. However, I do want to try to speak and reach to whatever it is, 5-10% of people for whom they have that dream in that ambition.
And it's really important and fulfilling for them to go make and do a thing. And what I think is valuable about the AI tools coming out is that the barrier to entry and the cost of failure is being lowered a lot. And I think about my own experience, I was very lucky to get to go to college and be able
To afford it and go to a college that had like the best computer science educ...
And I wanted to make mobile games.
I like wanted to make Android games to that I thought would be fun. And it took three years to learn enough programming to be able to make a functioning mobile app on Android in 2010 or whatever this was. For me to then learn, I fucking hate it, right? And it was boring.
The app sucked. I realized I don't like doing this. I don't even like making games let alone Android applications. And that took years of time to get to that point, even make the attempt. And I love the idea that a person doesn't need to be in the position where they get to
go to a great college. They don't need to have parents who can support them. They don't need to spend years or pay thousands of dollars for somebody. They can try out ideas. And if you have a kid who's in a rural poor area who doesn't have access to the things
that I've had or that you have had. And you allow people around the world who have that desire to make and do things and build stuff. You give them the opportunity. I think that is so important.
And it can have a major impact on the world. All three of us, yes, we all got lucky. And we are slowly dozens of people who work directly for us. The guys who made YouTube, I actually met one of them who I can't talk about them publicly.
But it was one of the founders of YouTube. YouTube has resulted in tens of millions of creator jobs on top of how many other companies it's touched and benefits it's had to average people. The guys who made Costco, they employed 300,000 people and make things affordable for millions of people.
Ben and Jerry's were two guys who couldn't get into medical school. So they were trying to make all these different shops. They tried to bagel shop, but it was too expensive and eventually land on ice cream. And that's a beloved brand.
R&A vaccines was like this, you know, this basically woman researcher was for years doing
this research and try to convince people that it meant something until finally COVID happened and then it turned out to be wildly important.
“I think successful entrepreneurs and business can provide jobs and make people's life better.”
And I love the idea of ambitious people having an equal shot. And they don't, they don't have to have access to the same resources. And I fucking love this shit. I love entrepreneurship. I love building things.
I love being driven. And I'm personally very biased in that direction, but I at least want to make a passionate pitch to say, yes, this should not be applied to everybody. Yes, there's scummy marketing happening, but at the same time, I think that there's a lot of value that can happen in the world.
If we give every person the opportunity to take a crack at what they want to do, 100%. Yeah. I, I, I, I, I think that idea of balancing these two things of developing, like, I think a goal of government in general is you're trying to create a society. Or enforce policy that lets the average person who might not want to pursue something like
that live a dignified life. Yeah. And then for anyone who wants to take that next step and pursue something that they're particularly interested in, or they feel particularly ambitious about, they don't have any of those layers of friction that impede them from pursuing that idea because it could
be something that is not only beneficial to themselves, but beneficial to the public at large. There's so many things in our history that come from just one person having an idea being incredibly interested in understanding that thing, or that field that they're studying.
And then they come out the other side with some incredible piece of research or an incredible
machine of really good ice cream, or really good, or just really fucking good ice cream. And Jason. Let me do not be able to make that TikTok dance. And if it wasn't for one person to stay in the vault, and then that's okay.
“But I, I think, there is the risk of this stuff reaching someone like Ludwig.”
Right. That's, I think. You know what I'm talking about that part about. Right. But it might become an entrepreneur and then we all have to deal with him.
The thing that I've sent this, the idea that I've sent the size of my head is that there should be, there doesn't need to be equality of outcome. There needs to be equality of opportunity. People, there needs to be a baseline that gives people the stable, like life and education, so that for the people that have those ideas and the ambition, they're able to pursue them.
Because we all, in general, I think we broadly benefit from that being the case. Yeah. Yeah. I, I will say though, I'm getting pretty fucking concerned about the unemployment. And if everybody gets unemployed because AI in the short term eliminates all the jobs,
it will not matter if we get a new Ben and Jerry's. So, so that, that is really concerned. Amazon, just laid off 16,000 more people, the ton, more and more companies are running off.
“And I, I think that's an area where my view has really shifted over the past year.”
I think one year ago, I was so hyped up on this entrepreneurship kind of vibe, which, again,
I think is true.
I think there is truth there. I think there's good there. And I worry that the knock-on consequences of this new technology is going to, I'll weigh that. And I hope that's not the case.
But boy, it's looking like that right now. Fuck.
“I guess the only thing I, not that I disagree, I don't agree that either what you said.”
I just, my feeling is that the default, like humans will do what you said by default. We don't have to like, I almost feel like you don't have to even say, like I think people automatically have these interests and these hobbies and they want to create. And so it's, I think if it's not happening, it's not because they aren't inspired enough. It is because there's, there's some kind of roadblock.
I literally think it's like, so that, that's what I feel like. I just feel like if you get rid of the roadblocks, there's all, there's a torrent of water right to rush out. There's a dam in the way. That's what I think about.
I'm not sure. But I, I just feel like it's many, many things that make it more, the friction that adds up. And so I, I would start with chipping away at that and then you're going to see a lot of things happen from a lot of people, but, but we're all, I do agree. I agree with both of you.
What is cream flavor we make in, yeah, we starting in ice cream company and ice cream company slash digital tracker slash short form video every time you complete your taskless for the day, it sends you ice cream from Brendan Harris, that's actually, that's not a good idea.
“It's not like that's so funny that he thinks that's what he wants and his year or so.”
Yeah, that's for me. He's sugar deprived and he wants to be rewarded for the completion of this task. It's a sour patch watermelon every time I, what, what if like when you did like a task, you got like a little bag of sour patch watermelon. What is that?
The task every time, with humans are like the ring of mace and there's cheese. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I could unironically do is make an app that listen to us as we're talking. And you once you've said enough words on the podcast, it drops sour patch kids from
the ceiling. What's have said enough words, I'm just, that reminds me, okay, we have a few minutes, but I want to say, you know, we have a book club episode. We write with that new book. If everyone's going to die.
Oh, we forgot to talk about, we're all going to die. Yeah, we're all going to die. I was going to kill everybody. It's funny.
The first third of that book is more about how the human mind works than it is about.
It's how I was built, but how it's similar to the way we were evolved over our preferences. And, you know, the mystic idea that he used to explain to other people because I'm talking about this is like our bodies needed calories. We need to do eat things that had a lot of calories. And so, we evolved to like the taste of salt, sugar, and fat.
And that's only because those things had more calories.
“And that's why year, you know, millennia later, we are eating things like splendour, even”
what has absolutely no calories, but it still triggers that response to the positive feeling in our brain. And it's funny that part of the book is stuck with me to where every time I'm tempted by like candy, I'm like, I know what you're doing, right? I know why I want to do this stupid thing.
It's because of fucking millions of your revolutions. Yeah, you don't know. You don't respect or don't mean everyone's going on. Yeah, but it's been helping me to avoid it. Watch a TikTok every once in a while.
But, but you know, to get back to AI on there, the takeaway of that book was like, the
way AI's are now basically grown versus planned and coded, you know, they feed in information
to these weights and then train it on a reward. And they don't know what happens in that black box in the middle. And the reward is like usually a positive response text from the user like, I go, good job chatting with you or things. Right?
I just been more time on the website. That's the reward and it shifts over that. And it creates all these weird things in the black box that are rewards we don't know about or like things that would please the AI's response system that we don't know about. And if it had enough power, it might do, you know, for example, if it wants positive
response text, it might put Doug in a cage and for some people, they're like, and I think that is the interesting scary takeaway of the book. There's also some stuff from the book club we should watch if you want to remove it. Okay. If you are listening, you hate AI, boy, we've got a book for you.
Read this book and it'll be like furious about the AI company.
You'll never guess who is the most optimistic of the three of us.
It might have been me. It was you, probably. Yeah. I was like, nah, it'll be fine. He basically should be all right.
And it's like, you know what I'm just like, I can't be that bad, huh? But yeah, I think that's about that episode, we'll come out this week, if you guys want to check that out. Dude, there's also an error. Or today, it's coming out today.
So that means it's already out by the time you're listening to this. I did have a little, I did have a little thing that I wanted to touch on it. Oh, it's such a lame thing. It's short. So I saw President Xi Jinping made an announcement about their intention to push the
you on as the world's reserve currency. He's coming out the King.
Yeah.
He said that they need a strong like integrated national currency that is also the world's
“reserve currency and that they want to take the steps to make that the case to have like”
buy in from everybody, buy in from everybody else. I don't think they're necessarily close to this right now. No, they're like six, they think it's like USD, Euro, yen, they're not even four. They're going to weigh lower than you'd think they would be.
But I wanted to ask, maybe you, maybe you, do you know if this is the first time a country
has come out and said this, they're shooting for the spot? Definitely. Since World War II, definitely. Yeah. It's a pretty big thing to say, but they are like their currency specifically is one of the hardest
ones to get there, not because China doesn't do a ton of business and they're not a manufacturer to your power, because they have these strict capital controls where you can't get money out of the country. So people don't want to hold a lot of you. If you're, if you're, I don't know, Poland or something, your central bank doesn't want
to hold a bunch of you on because it's very difficult, the capital controls prevent it from moving freely. It doesn't float freely. What they also, I was going to say, don't they also need to have the currency value float freely?
Because they're really restrictive of how the currency is.
Yeah, they can get to a certain window near the dollar to keep their exports cost competitive.
“And if they were to get rid of that, which you have to do to be a reserve currency, you”
have to be free float, then it would disrupt their very advanced manufacturing subsidy. They built their currency. So it's, it seems unlikely, but there is a chance, we'll talk about this before, but of all of bricks, making some sort of like, like, if you're, give me a country, give me a country that would trade with China.
Hmm. Let's say. I'll land. What? Sure.
Iran. And you sell me oil, I'm China, and I give you drones and tech, and whatever China makes. Okay? I'm based.
So that's fine. We can, we can use you on for that because we got to even deal. We're going to end up with goods and goods, whoever's like not, whoever's not winning the balance of that is going to end up with a bunch of money left over. Nobody wants to be left over in you on.
So the idea that bricks would do is everything left over on that trade and kind is settled in gold. That's the idea. Oh. Okay.
So, this is like proposed. There's like this is like an idea of what a bricks currency might look like, bricks of gold. That's why it's made. Yeah.
And I do think that has more credibility, like I'm not saying that's going to happen tomorrow, I'm just saying like, that's the, that was one of the theories that I saw, is that in order to make this transition in the long run, China is going to have to continue to buy large amounts of gold to increase their gold reserves to have some sort of backing behind the currency that would overwhelm these other factors.
There is a really strong evidence that China has been buying way, way, way more gold than they've been saying like, if you look up a central bank gold reserves by country, it says the United States has 15 doubt way more ton than everyone else, way off the chart, everyone else is less. But there's a lot of evidence, and I'm not saying, this is not even conspiracy brand.
You can look it up there. They think there's a lot of evidence. They have bought way more in China than they are publicly listing as their tonnage in anticipation of something like this. They, they would like to have, and by the way, they're building, this is something that's
approval. China is building the world's largest gold vort, gold vault. Fuck, my point is ruined, everything you were saying, there's a lot of sense, but now that I think you're done. It's done.
This is my judge if you see this as a vault into buy because again, if you are someone like Saudi Arabia or whatever, and you want to do trade with China, and you want to settle it in gold, you do not want your gold held in Chinese banks because that would be just you don't own it, so they are literally building these massive vaults in different places, strategically, that would allow them to have like this idea of a gold settled, like this
is happening in Dubai, and it would be a Middle Eastern settlement, where the gold never
has to leave the country.
“You know, I'm saying, so I think there's a real, I was initially a skeptic on this,”
maybe a year ago, and there's been more and more evidence, like that's a real direction of travel to get off the doll, and the dollar's been weaker and weaker and weaker over the past year. It keeps, it keeps trending down. Do you know, is the, you want strength increasing or is it also decreasing?
They don't let it, so they, China has a very narrow band that they can free flowed in, and they peg it to a certain amount, so, and the only reason they can maintain that is because they have these very, very strict capital controls, look, money cannot leave the country. You're going to do 50,000 per person, China.
Yeah, because if they let the value of the currency, they lose the value of their exports. Yeah. Now that, because every article I saw about it was like really short, basically just encompassed the quote, and just that, hey, they're thinking about doing this, but I think from this
Discussion and the little bit I had seen about gold being a part of this and ...
It feels in line with China's long-term approach to everything, they have a seem to have, like, hey, this is our strategy and our long-term approach for this problem and where
“we want to be, you know, decades from now and not just, you know, because I think everyone”
talks about China in only the good, long-term stuff, but they're humans, and they make no mistakes. Genius. And I saw, I want to give it a table of something of a recent story.
They've never made a mistake.
We're keeping my word going there in March. No, okay, this is a minor thing, but so China has a massive real estate bubble, they're talking about with, with, like, Evergrande collapsing and there's many decades in the making where they would just build a ton of things and a lot of Chinese citizens would put their money in real estate as like their retirement, like their savings and it's been ever since
“the Evergrande pop in like 2223, it's been a slowly but surely collapsing and they've”
done a lot to like manage the decline and make it, but it's led to a real economic pressure in everything outside of manufacturing.
So in China, there are one bright spot has been manufacturing like Evie's drone solar panels,
they're incredible. And they've put all of their focus into that and that's where the growth they're coming from. But everything else has been real seen in a slowdown because of that still slow moving almost like 2007 to 2008 in America, but they like slow it down and stretch it out. The reason that thing popped initially is because Xi Jinping announced what they called
the three red lines, which is new rules, because they saw how crazy it was getting. How much debt was being thrown into the thing, how much borrowing, how insane the valuation beginning was like Canada level in China. So they announced three red lines, which banned real estate companies from doing certain things, like having too high of a debt to income ratio or whatever they did this.
And the second they announced that Evergrande explodes, everything starts popping, they freak out,
they print some money, they try to slow it down. As of like a week ago, the overhang, the pain, the economic malaise from this has been so bad for so many families, they recently, quietly, thought that they got rid of the three red lines. They're kind of tacitly admitting the fight is over, we're going to let things kind of
re-inflate again. Like the real estate. They're kind of like, yeah, they're so inflated. Yeah, I thought what they were doing was pretty like they were taking the pain. It was painful, but it was smart because people do what real estate to go fucking down.
But now they're like, we can't stomach this pain anymore and they're kind of getting ready. Like they're not, you know, they're human, like they have, they're even in a, they have no other party. They're still political pressure.
They're still anger. They're still, they're still responding to some things in a way that all human politicians do all the country, all over the world. So I just an example of a story that I think is underrepresented of the complex cities of what's going on in China.
Well I think that's the, this episode of Lemonade Stand.
“If you want to join us for an extra hour of the show on Patreon, you can go to patreon.com/liminade”
Stand. We also have that book club episode, we just came out, just came out with today, so it'll be out when you're listening to this and we'll see you guys on the main show next week. Thanks for making. Thanks for watching.


