Why Clean Data Matters More Than the AI Model You Pick (with Triple Whale’s Maxx Blank)

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Brands like Kitch use Triple Whale, book a demo at triplewhale.com/limitedSupply. That's TRIP LEWHALE.com/limitedSupply. Welcome back to another episode of Limited Supply. Today, I've got a very special guest, my friend, the Max Blank, who we've been friends for a very long time now, it feels. We actually became friends, actually before we talk about that, why don't you just give

a quick blurb of yourself? Yeah, Max Blank, co-founder, Triple Whale, born and bred in Columbus, Ohio Midwest, you know, but come to New York all the time. We have an office here, and spend a lot of time in the trenches with D to C, and what's going on, we're probably across the whole space, and I don't know how long we've been

friends for. I'm trying to think about it. Well, so it was, it was a mentor pass, is what brought us together. Yeah. Remember that?

You were showing me Madison Braids, which is brand size business that you've run for a long time. Yeah, I mean, that's kind of what the impetus of Triple Whale grew out of that. Right.

And probably the third or fourth call, it would be me, and then you and AJ, and the third

or fourth call, you started showing me these widgets in your browser, that were basically your own reporting widgets.

“I think on Shopify's UI and Meta's ad UI, and that was kind of the beginning of”

Triple Whale. Yeah, it was like, well, I totally forgot Hunter Pass. Yeah, so I mean, before Triple Whale, you know, it was running Madison Braids. If you had a brand too, but Madison Braids was really, you know, what led to Triple Whale on AJ was working with me on that, and I remember just trying to knew whoever I could,

and you were like, one of the guys, you know, that was good to meet. Yeah. That book, do you? I figured what we were doing. But I asked you certain questions.

Yeah, we were really trying to think about just some general, yeah, influencer, increasing conversion rate. Yeah. And then somewhere along the lines, you know, with my background and just entrepreneurship and running brands in AJ, who, uh, we go way back in entrepreneurship in general, and

just, you know, when you're entrepreneur, right? You need to meet other entrepreneurs, totally. You know, you battery charged, right? He's one of those guys, and at some point we started working together on Madison. And that, you know, the need to have like a tool that I could just like see all my numbers

in real time. That was really the, the, the birth of Triple Whale. Yeah. And then it kind of just went kind of viral with Jason Wong tweeting it, like Nick Shackle Bird and all these, the OGs.

Yeah. And you definitely are helpful on that as well. Totally.

I think it's always interesting, too, to like, go back and think about what

was it at the time that you were doing with Madison braids that like got you to even think, okay, first of all, I should rethink about, you know, software.

“And I think, too, that was, do you remember what year that was?”

It must have been, uh, that was like probably 2019, 2020. Yeah. So I'm around COVID before after in that area. Yeah. And I remember at that time, there was like, there was actually no real proper analytics

tools. There was maybe one, I forget the name of the metrics. Yeah. But the problem with a lot of these analytics tools, where they were, they were actually more business intelligence tools versus like analytics for e-combrance.

Right. And that's a specific breed of person. Right. You're not like super data-heavy. You're not super tech-heavy.

Yeah. You're like, okay. I know media buying, I know Facebook ads. Right. Maybe I learned some from like a drop-shipping YouTube video and you're a specific type

for entrepreneur. Yeah. And John Lindbergh videos. Yeah. Or as a firestone.

Yeah. Who ever was? I did not have like a data background at all. Triple well. What did it say was not what it was.

No, yeah. You know, I think kind of like, cool. Yeah. But it was very much for like the everyday sort of Shopify entrepreneur. They just want to see their easily, see their data.

Right. So how the, really the real is. Yeah. What else trying to do? Can I get my blended real as and know like, okay, it was a clear deal that did this

or was it like my ads? Right.

“Is it all created if that launched today or was it something else?”

And that's what's trying to get. Yeah. That was the beginning. Yeah.

2018 when I was at hint, we still never had proper reporting.

You know, we had like a tabloid dashboard that would have pulled by an analyst. And then a screenshot of that is what would go to the exact team every day in an email. Right. He's saying. How many brands have told you that?

Yeah. I talked to brands that are today in the hundreds of millions of dollars still have a GA screen

We, from my perspective, I'm like, oh, we've got everybody.

It's like, no. We really haven't. Yeah. That's nice. It's so huge.

They're just still coming. Yeah. Yeah. And what's funny, too, is there were, there were a few players that came in and tried to do the analytics for ECOM, but they all kind of fizzled out because they also, I think,

took the approach of this enterprise, enterprise contract 12 month lock in approach. And a bunch of people just kind of like stopped working with them after a while. And then triple will came on the market and everybody was jumping the triple will. Yeah. It was just easy to get started.

Yeah. So you can just come in, believe whatever you wanted, some point that software has to

“mature and you have to get contracts, you know, but I'll say, going in from like the perspective”

of like what I was doing and feeling it and knowing it and knowing it knows out there. Yeah. And just going quickly and making it so easy, that's what kind of got us off to the races, not having strict contract or things like that. But as you mature, you can't scale a business if you don't know what's coming next

month. Totally. Totally. So you have to kind of mature that way. Yeah.

And get the majority of what you need for start up. Yeah. And at one point two, we launched that founders dash together, which was like the free login, you know, it's like thousands of downloads a month. Yeah.

I mean, it's such a good idea because that was literally, I think we were talking about like let's just make a easy way for people to see their numbers because even thinking back

to those hint days, it was just never easy.

You know? We have huge brands just thumb free version. Yeah. Yeah. There's more here.

But you know, and it's fascinating. But yeah. It's all with that. Yeah. You know.

First of all, it's a real time. Right. Basically, sometimes you will see the numbers in AAA before you'll see them in Facebook. Yeah. Which is pretty amazing.

Right. Yeah. The way we store data. We have a crazy infrastructure that we built in house. Right.

“I think before we get into the product more, I'm curious, like when you started building”

AAA, what was the goal or like what were you trying to solve for? And you know, because that was probably much different than today where the product is evolved to. For sure. All the beginning was just how do I get my numbers in one place?

Because I was just the, you know, just AJ and I essentially, like, it just started me behind. I showed him how to do it. Yep. And I was more like on the inventory and upside.

There's not enough attention that goes into ops. Right. And, you know, logistics and things like that. So I started focusing on there. But the idea was like, how could I just get all of my numbers centralized?

And I wasn't dealing with that problem. Yeah. We can't very, you know, evidence. So like at the beginning of the goals, not, I did not think it would get to where it's that right now.

Yeah. It was just like simply getting it all together. Right. And was it initially, let me just make this for us? Yes.

Get something that works.

I always wanted to go, you know, one to have a software solution.

But I, I'm always like, you know, how much can I focus on two things that want? Yeah. It's hard. But now we focus on like, I'm the only things that want and I realize I could do it. Yeah.

But it wasn't like until AJ and I started really working hard on it together. He was able to go super hard on these obsessive product, which is awesome. And he was able to really just go deep on that. And then I was one of the business side. And we were able to just kind of do our thing, and we had this magic chemistry that just

we were able to make it work. Yeah.

“Do you think they're going to drop the Madison very quickly?”

I mean, we still use it internally. Yeah. Yeah. It's always in some demo. 100%.

Yeah. Um, was there anything about running Madison braids that, you know, was really hard that you felt like turned into a good lesson as you started building triple will? I mean, for sure, just knowing the problem so well, like I still state close to Madison because I want to stay connected.

Yeah. I mean, obviously I meet with brands all the time, but the brands that I meet with now are like our biggest clients. It's nowhere near the level where I was with Madison, but I think that that experience I had building something for myself and coming from the industry like that, that's invaluable.

Yeah. Yeah. And also the scrapy sort of entrepreneur that kind of is bread, right? Yeah. Yeah.

The best e-commerce entrepreneurs, they know every number every day for the last, you know, six months. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's amazing. What did you realize like as you were building this that other, there were other founders that wanted a solution like this as well? Um, I think immediately we started, once it was like ready, we started sharing it with others. Yeah.

Starting with like the agencies that were buying media or Madison braids and we just saw that it was moving. People. Right. And then just DMing people.

Yeah. Try this. Try this. Kind of the influencer, like recruitment style of like getting people to try your product and then get pictures and return.

Right. We kind of just sprayed and sprayed. Yeah. And you know, maybe like one out of every 150 person responded. Yeah.

One of them being Jason long. I'll never forget that. Yeah. Yeah. I think that was also a great way you guys got a bunch of like early backers and better

advisors on board too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we got robber early on.

Yeah. Yeah. Huge the instrumental in the. Yeah. Well, this is like go to markets.

It's not on the stoutes.

Yeah. Totally robber Alexa. The whole crew. Great crew. That small office across whole foods and off.

Yeah. You still have that? No. No. Yeah.

That was a good office. Good old days. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious.

“That's how I want to dive into triple well. So before we start talking about movie,”

like walk me through kind of the product evolution. Yeah. You know, it started with the widget today. It's a enterprise level all in one solution. But like how how did it get from the widget to where it is today?

Yeah. Yeah. You know, we're just we're just obsessed with the product. Yeah. Sounds good.

Too much stuff out there. Sounds good. You know.

But we're always testing and iterating.

And nowadays the testing to iterate has never been easier and more like affordable. What's the agent of coding, right? We can test things quickly, bring things back. You know, iterate super fast. It's like, you know, I'm sure you're feeling it yourself, you know, totally.

We've always been obsessed. And as the brand, you know, in our space, like you can go from like 250K a month to like millions of dollars really quickly. Yeah. And we just held on to the relationships of those brands that were scaling. And we scaled with them.

And they needed more reporting. We bought costs and reporting. They needed more connectors. We brought more integrations. And they needed like a data infrastructure, which these are.

Performance marketers and only know much about like data infrastructure to become big. 50 million, 100 million. You start to build out like a data warehouse and things like that. So we just latched on to a lot of the the darlings that grew up with us. You know, the donning brands.

Yeah. And we built them like ruthlessly just gave them stuff free just so we could have the knowledge. And just the feedback loops. And we just kept up with that. We didn't stop and like, okay, this is good enough.

We just kept building and scaling with those those real operators. And learning, you know, yeah. That's really like how we got to a lot of like the bigger brands we work with now.

What's just doing that is some brands started with us and they were a couple million bucks.

And now they're doing hundreds of millions of dollars a revenue. Yeah. And you see them that sort of evolution of okay. The founders and like a couple friends. They get product market fit and they start to scale.

They start to go into a few different channels. Maybe they bring agency on like 10, 15. And then they start to bring on Amazon. Maybe some other marketplaces. And they get to like 50, 60 and they start to dabble into retail.

And maybe at some point they open up a physical store. And we just seen that iteration where they get into Costco and they get into some other retailers. Right. And you see that that progression is supposed to maybe like 10, 15, 20 years ago. You maybe start opposite.

Right. We maybe start with the store old school back in the day. Yep. Maybe start with, you know, retail. And now it's clearly starting online and you're progressively scaling.

And we see all that all the time. You know, and it's Shopify has made it so easy to do these things. Yeah, 100%. And then we come on top and organize all the data. And the infrastructure of these brands that really can unleash growth for them.

“By having these things organized, specifically in AI, right?”

Yeah. The data in is going to be the quality of the answers out. The reactions, the recommendations out. And I feel like that was something you guys saw really early.

And I think to our first AI summit that we hosted was two years ago.

Y'all have came and spoke. And I'll be honest, I think when he spoke, I was confused about what is triple well doing. Right. Because out of nowhere, chat was basically just chat at that point. But you guys had already gotten access to the Gemini APIs.

And you started making creative. And people were like, well, how is this even happening? And there was limited to eight second clips. You guys were able to put that together. And then also on the data side, you guys were so early on data organization for the purpose of AI.

But again, I think conceptually was understood that you need good data going in. But at that time, no one had any idea what AI was capable of or how it was used or, you know, the way people use whether it's mobile or codex or cloud code today. Completely like not even a thought back then of any of this possibility. But had you guys not thought about data organization and building a warehouse.

And again, supplementing what a performance marketer doesn't know. You wouldn't be able to use these tools like that today. And you see it actually when people use something like a codex or cloud code. But they don't have a triple well built in to handle the data organization. The results are actually not the numbers on a clean.

They're quite messy. Right. Doesn't know actual business. Yeah. But on our on our pursuit to scale with these smaller brands that then, you know, scaled.

They needed access to like customer reporting every brand or agency or media by has like their spreadsheet. Right. Every day of the pacing. Right. So as those brands get bigger, that spreadsheet can figure and won't complicated.

Yeah. So we started building the data infrastructure that would actually replace that loan behold.

“Like that is the same type of infrastructure that you need to have clean data that you can run an AI on top of.”

Right. And then on the warehouse, like we built our own. It's a it's a forked version of Clickhouse, which is a specific type of data warehouse for real time analytics.

As soon as you connect any integration, we save all that data from when you opened up your add account. Every on off budget scale anything saved. So you can now run mobile on that data and say, give me all the actions I took. Give me some type of like insights from like what happened here. Yeah.

And like that is massively powerful.

Yeah. Something like that is is triple well as a whole also getting smarter from these inputs coming in from brands or is it just specific to that one brand. Specific to that one brand. However, we do have a data set that's our benchmark data set. Mm-hmm.

That is a normalized trends. Peer to peer like cohorts. Yeah.

“That can it's like, you know, people go on acts and say like, what's going to CPM today?”

What's going on with, you know, this or that today? And everyone's kind of trying to figure it out. So there's a benchmark inside a ship where they can kind of tell you. Is it, is it also, is it, is it, is it yours at the market? Yeah.

And so mobile will get access to that. And you can, you know, query it and say right going on. Is it me or is it, is it them? Yeah. You know.

And so that that that is in there. And we get more and more learnings from that that we can share. But, you know, privacy and data privacy and things like that. We take very seriously. So it has to be like a nonomice has to be a certain amount in that as well.

Yeah.

So that it's like you can never figure out who is who.

Right. But there is an element that like getting smarter over time. For sure. Yeah. I think that data and privacy is so interesting.

You know, instinct for example came out recently. And there was all this talk about well. These guys are basically saving a copy of everything that you do in their servers. And it's not deleted. And, you know, people in Twitter shared screenshots of, oh, I got a response from somebody else's instinct

out in my, you know, in my message. Yeah. Those are just like hallucinations. For sure. Yeah.

Or some of that would be, you know, a competitor or something. But nonetheless, I think it still raises the concern for a lot of people about like, you know, what's private or what's day is private to me. Yeah. How does the state of get used?

Sure. Yeah. I'm curious. You know, if we talk about start talking about mobile now. Like what's what are some some things that today, you know,

brands have almost off boarded two mobile entirely. But even just thinking about how, how teams have evolved over the last like three years and he commerce, right? You're now seeing a lot leaner teams. Even I think Steven from cuts was on a video a couple days ago.

Just talking about how his new team set up is so lean. Like it's just a few people now. Doesn't require, you know, 30 plus people to run an e-commerce business. And a lot of it is because, you know, players like mobile, are able to take a lot of these jobs and do them.

So what are some of the things that we could talk about?

I think I think it's incredible conversation.

I want to preface it also by saying that like, people's adoption curve with AI is different. Yeah. It's different. And it's, there's a lot of anxiety.

“And I think with AI, like, oh, keeping up with like what is possible?”

Yeah. If you don't care. It was the only way to keep up is you have to be a fun employed. You got to jump in. Yeah.

I think it's also. But really. I would say like the rate of adoption. Like if you had a chart and like, it's a function out. He is like straight up into the right, you know?

It's actually adoption is like so low still. People are trying to figure out there's a lot of testing. There's a lot of is this working is that not working. It's confusing. It's hard.

You know, one of the things that we set out to do, which is kind of what we did from the beginning, which is organizing and giving you a system to operate in with your data. If you did a clean and ready to go for any type of reporting. Right.

That was like the beginning. Right. But now with mobile, which underneath mobile is honestly, it's, it's an agent, the car. Right.

So mobile has all of the frontier models. Yeah. All of the creative models. Anything that's new, we get it almost a day before the day off. Right.

We're very close to all the frontier models and all the labs. And with inside the harness with the models, then we have tools, software data, your data, benchmark data, the ability to really, and any type of experience you have at the cloud or a code,

actually you can do in mobile, but on top of your data and it's governed. Right. You have control. Right. There's automations.

“There's a set of having like all these MCPs you need to manage.”

We have them that we're managing for you. Yeah. Can you also turn ads on and off? You can schedule budgets increasing decreasing. Right.

Right. You can really start to offload a lot of the work. So like to go back to your original question. So first of all, I don't think anyone's really figured out. We are seeing the brands at the top end that are super AI-pilled.

And the common themes of the ones that are really making changes are the founders or the CEO are so obsessed with AI and see the future that they have the anxiety and they're thinking and they're pondering like, what does this mean for humanity? Yeah. Yeah.

The other ones that are really leaning in and just curious. And I think they do like that. AI is so great for people who are tankerers, people who want to mess around with something or just like, yeah. I think I'm going to take a couple of bills.

Yeah. I don't like show me the money. Right. AI. You know.

And there's ways to do it. And whether it's like leaning or scaling back teams potentially. Or it's like, what are the things that our team is doing all the time that repetitive

And then one of the opportunities now that we can finally go and do. Like, I can remember being on the merchant side and always wanting to try a new channel. Or a new, either it was a new ad channel or a new place to sell. They're like, you know, in between trying to figure out where my money is going right now. Trying to mess with inventory and plan cash properly.

Yep. Manage ads, so on and so forth. Right. You never get the time to do those things. Right.

There's like an infinite opportunity to test new things. And you see that like, you know, whether you're an AI do more or a, you know, which I, I'm not.

“I think it's going to be on unprecedented opportunity for everybody.”

Right. I think it's like that Japanese principle. You heard of that. Yeah.

Well, like basically it just creates infinite opportunity because there's always another landing page to total.

You know, I believe in that. Think you're seeing. Now with engineering, right? People are saying or even internally when we pushed, they are coding things like that. There's anxiety, you know, and I don't blame them.

But like now, most most of our engineering is fully agente. Yeah. But you still have the leaders who know how to try to engineer it. Yeah, you still need them. Yeah, exactly.

I think that's the perception people have is, oh, it's going to replace this person entirely. Versus it's actually going to make this person 10 times more productive. Because the guy that knows what needs to be done can now orchestrate those things. Yeah. And they're still review and make sure they're good.

Because at the end of the day, you can vibe code whenever. But like how many things that you five could into production that have to like perform? Right. You know, and you don't really do that unless you have someone who knows it down to the kishkas. Yeah.

Totally totally. And you end up needing engineers that know how to orchestrate these things. Yeah. Can you explain? Just one quick.

Yeah. Interesting is that. So all this scare, the scarcity mindset of like, okay, there's going to be engineers

on one specific example, right? And now you've engineers just in fields you never would thought they would be in.

Yeah. Because now. Like, what's it mean for plumbers? Yeah. But for like accountants.

Totally.

“So I think you actually create more demand.”

Yeah. I mean, someone had told me that lawyers. Yeah. The amount of lawyers eat because like, are you going to go and you may get a good idea if it's going on with something using cloud or whatever?

Oh, like, no, you want to learn to review that. Right. Now there's a lot more things for lawyers to review. Right. And at the end of the day, it's like human trust relationships.

And like you need that. 100%. Yeah. It only really multiplies the output that's possible. AI is an amplifier.

Yeah. Totally. Yeah. And I think another just side anecdote that's been interesting, too, is like offshore teams now using AI. But because they're using something like a movie, they're actually just as up-to-date and real time as the people in the New York City or LA office.

Sure. Yeah. They're not waiting for data. They're not waiting to get something to them. They're not waiting on somebody else.

They're able to actually go and execute. Yeah. And it's been really interesting. Just even watching brands take these teams and help like they've now turned somebody who might have just been kind of a data entry or project manager project coordinator type role. And now they're building landing pages.

They're looking at what creative is doing best in coming out with 50 new versions of it on their own, you know, without having to require six or seven other people. Yeah. As it relates to, like, what are or charts look like in the commerce companies? What, what, what are the actual, like, show me the money. Yeah. Yeah. These types of things. Totally.

And I also think that people don't necessarily know, but you, you now have the time in the space. Yeah.

“You start to experiment and figure out what does the future or chart look like, what does the future?”

What does the true capacity? You know, I like to say internally that, like, AI is giving awesome, internally, but also our clients more importantly, like, what's it called the Iron Man suit? Yeah. You know, it's like, byonic, you know, you can do so much. Right.

Um, I mean, Moby has, like I mentioned, has the creative models in it, right?

So now we have the Pixel, right? We've always had our Pixel, right?

Which is telling you source of truth on customer journeys, right? Which adds or producing the best customer journeys, most profitable customer journeys. Let's take those ads and then let's put it into an Anna banana or a sea dance 2.5. But you know, and then let's turn out more creative select that as a tacit to landing pages. Let's tell Moby to do that every Monday, 25 different variants and publish them for us automatically.

Right. That's like a growth engine. That's it. That's a dream. Yeah.

It's a whole flywheel. You can do that under one under one kind of process. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Can you explain how harness is different than what most people probably use, which might be at chatgbt.com or the basic cloud app or cloud co-work. Yeah. I would say like harness is really just like, um, well, let's back it up. In agent or like a cloud, a cloud code or or cloud or a chatgbt tree like an engine, right?

It's like an engine. It's powerful. But for an engine or a car to move, you need all the other things, right? Steering wheel, you need the mirrors. You need everything that makes a car move.

It's not just the engine. It's a very powerful part of it. So with a harness, you have the engine, but you have all the other tools as well.

And then the relationship between the models, between each other.

And we've been able to orchestrate. So can in a, uh, you're going to mobile and you get some kind of insight from cloud. Pass that insight off to seed dance 2.5. Right. To make the creative better, based on whatever inference you just derived from the from the frontier model.

Right. So an engine is really just like the model itself. The agent or sorry, the harness is really the, um, all of it together. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense?

Right. All of the things together. You can plug in the context, the memory. Yeah. Data set memory, a digital models.

Yes. And the, what our team has done, our AI team has made it so they can work together really well. So it, you know, when you put all that together, you get this like recipe for just. Really driving business results. Yeah.

And I think, too, the way that mobile is built out is very, it's very much built for. Um, kind of people to use AI at a really high level, but also the early adopters and people who are like looking to start implement or integrating it into their workflows too. Yeah. You don't have to make a lot of complex decisions to get good output from mobile. You don't know.

And it's gotten smarter and smarter and, and a good thing about being harness is we ride the way of all the models. Mm-hmm. You know, you go into mobile and you can select which model. Yeah. So the new ones.

Well, they're always there.

No, they're more expensive. Yeah. Um, we all know that. But you can kind of ride, we kind of ride the wave. You can spend an hour working through your ad budget with AI and still have to make every change yourself.

“Triple whales mobile uses your business data to recommend exactly what changes you should make.”

And then can go and make those changes for you with your approval. You can plan before any money moves. Book a demo at triplewail.com/limitedsupply. That's TRIPLE, WHALE.com/limitedsupply. To find with, you know, even, like, let's say somebody is like, I only want to use Astra, right?

Pay for the most expensive one. Mm-hmm. People are still finding a lot of cost efficiencies and savings by using these models to execute the work that they're trying to get. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

And the work that we do also look on routing. Mm-hmm. What, what questions should go to which model? Yeah. We're not moving in that routing a little bit.

That's like, can mobile predict or tell you basically on what you asked at which model should it take?

Mm-hmm. And that's something where we're getting better and better at, you know, as the depth of usage of mobile gets more and more, you know? Which model should take what? And that's how you start to optimize the costs and down those costs. Right.

And I would say also like, what does movies relationship with cloud, chat to BT outside of mobile, right? So we have an MCP. You can be out. X, can you explain the MCP? Yeah.

So you right now, you can take analytics that triple has and put it into cloud or to chat to BT.

“Um, I think next week, we're going to be launching an app inside chat to BT.”

So you can come in and have, like, just tag triple. Yeah. Or technical. Or technical. Or you can have your dash, you can go to dash one and they're really quickly.

Yeah. You know, so like, we want to be everywhere. It's really thick. It's to like, every week is something different in this new world we live in. Right.

So we take in the approach of like, be where people want us to be. But there's a real advantage of doing it in triple well. Is that the data's the freshest, the fastest. Yeah. You know, and we have a lot of the things that you need.

If you're trying to set up a whole ecosystem for your business, you know, you want the data warehouse. We've got that. You want the integrations. We've got that. Almost every single integration we've got.

There are some edge cases. We're working on it all the time though. If you want all the models, right? Get you a memory context. We've got all that.

You know, you want a computer that can check browsers for you. I'm like, run, movies got that. Right. Yeah. It's pretty amazing.

It's like a lunchable. Yeah. It's overwhelming. To be honest. And we're figure out how to like,

Do you overwhelm it and get really practical?

“I think I think with a lot of this stuff.”

There's a, uh, there's a learning curve. You kind of have to go through like, you know, for me personally, I last end of last year, I would say, I, uh, I remember thinking like, Wow, how are people tweeting that, um,

You know, vibe coded apps are going to replace Shopify apps. Because I only know AI is like a chat interface. Right. What are these people talking about? Yeah.

And then in earlier this year, uh, Pride Jan or Fed, I decided. All right. Let me just go all in and try to figure this all out. And, you know,

I set up our Hermes agent. Yeah. Got to clog code and codex and start using all these different tools. And, um, But it took me a very dedicated couple of weeks to get very immersed.

Learn the models. Learn what model is good for what. And, you know, What does it even mean to go from light to ultra? You know what I mean?

Like scale. I don't even learn that until two weeks ago when I realize that it's actually just the speed of what you get versus like the caliber of the model. Um, So I think there is some sort of a learning curve. Like, uh, like you said, like the challenge is trying to figure out how you get people over that without getting too overwhelmed.

We built a lot of raw capabilities.

Yeah. You can, you can code an app and triple well. You could, you could code almost anything. It's got the data. Mm-hmm.

Right. You can go out on the call a few weeks ago. And we just like, I was having an experiment with a relatively large client. I'm like,

What's your biggest problem right now? He's like, Inventory.

“Knowing what's in route and what's the highest, like what's the top sellers and what's the velocity?”

Yeah. So I had my wee just created an app. There's an inventory management app. Boom. Right.

Because it was a do it. I'm going to ship that to all of our users. No. But like, you could, if you know what you're doing, you can actually take it and maintain it and, you know, and do it. Um,

A lot of raw capability. But the more raw it is,

like the harder to get mass adoption on it as well.

Yeah. So we've had to like almost add layers of privatization, which we're still doing now. Make it easier and easier. You're going to like a Higgs field right now. Think you just like put an image.

And then the video and it goes into a template like on the other side. Quickly is some creative. Right. Right now, if you're going to ship a well, like you could put. You could dump your Google drive in there with your creative files.

And like you could stitch together. Whatever you want. But it is a power tool, you know. We have brands that are doing their entire creative in triple L. Yeah.

And the more that we productize it and make it easier to get. That's where the mass adoption starts to really take place. We've seen adoption climbing create like 30% growth in our mobile sessions every month. And there's yeah, I imagine as soon as somebody starts using it. Yeah, it's it becomes a dick thing like it's a dick thing.

For me, it's like, um, there's a couple of brands I consult for. I can't, I can't imagine what it would be like. Working on their stuff day to day without having mobile to just use. You know what I mean 100%. Like we have some of the top brands right now.

Yeah. Using it that are saying that it is the most intelligent. Agent that can employ. They want a physical mobile in their office. Yeah.

We heard last week.

You know, it is truly powerful.

Yeah. I don't think we're that far away from. Some sort of a. But or robot in your in your office physically that. Right.

Like you at you just ask questions. You know, you know, creepy. I want to talk about the media buying too. You have to. You have to.

You have to. I love to that. Everybody's now changing like agents to characters. You know, to try to make it more friendly. You used it a few years ago.

They used it the best job of that. That for sure. They took a. Very complex. Chat based, you know, product experience.

Yeah. Chagipiti quad, right. Put a nice, you know, character on there. Made it real tangible and real. And my mom could use it.

Right. You know, it's like when you did that, you know, you hit something. You know, you hit something really totally. And I think what they did well is. They made it very friendly for like like our mom to use, right.

Like it actually comes to you with suggestions. That's the thing. Yeah. That's what you really want. Yeah.

I want someone coming to you pushing you things. Not you haven't pulled them out. Right. That's really where it becomes magical, you know.

“And I think that's a good segue into one of the media buying stuff.”

Yeah. That we are doing. Yeah. So you guys have been doing. Media buying.

Well, you just kind of recently announced it right in the last couple weeks. But they have any really gated. Yeah. But it's been something. I know Brian Kano for examples.

Yeah. And he's been telling me about it for a while. Yeah. Some of the stuff you guys were doing with true classic. How, how has that?

You know, I know there was a pretty good incremental lift on some of the stuff that was happening. And you mentioned a little bit like, you know, Moby is able to actually understand every single event inside the Change Log. Yeah.

That happens off of that, build memory, build context, understand how a brand should buy with different Headwinds or different periods of time. Yeah. Can you just talk a little bit about that? Sure.

Okay. So kind of playing off of the back of like, okay, proactive versus like, you reacting and pulling. Mm-hmm. Right. The best employees push stuff to you.

They're like, ah, yeah. Totally. Now you have to go like, how many this? Tell me that. Give me that, you know.

And the movie media buying front, which kind of playing with different names for it to be honest, you know, because it's not just media buying. It's like full funnel growth. Mm-hmm. Take a growth engine.

It does CRL. Just landing pages.

“I remember I explained that sort of engine.”

Yeah. You were literally creative to landing pitched. Landing pages published on your shop if I theme pixels and everything. Seamless. Check out.

We're doing that right now. Um, it does full funnel. It does retention marketing house. Clay, they built it into an SMS. We play the built into it.

And so you can come in and give it a go. And it can you work with it. And we have a context engineering team. Our forward-deployed marketing team. It can give your growth team, your agency, your media buyers.

Essentially like that Iron Man suit. But instead of like this. Sessions based sort of like chat back and forth. It's sort of organized multiple agents. That find hypotheses in your business.

Proposed solutions. The solutions can be changed budget over here.

Or try this channel.

The accept approved, accept approved.

“And then it learns the lessons from the acceptance.”

Or if you disapprove, you say why and it learns that. And you give it a go. You pay towards that goal. And you can work with this agentic workforce. Um, and you actually talk to it.

And interact with it. It can live in Slack. It can live in triple way up and live in the mobile app. It can live in very soon. Muse.

Really live in our MCPs as well. And it's like it's a growth team. It's a it's a it's an agentic growth engine. They can work with your team. Yeah.

It's pretty amazing. And I've got to show to you. Yeah. After the Slack integrations. Also interesting.

Yeah. A lot of agents have moved themselves to Slack. Because that that's where the conversation is happened. You want it. They hear everything.

They know everything. They can keep your team. Focus. They can be a resource for your team. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. Do you have any good examples of brands that have been. Testing this and and like how they've been using it or anything that's surprised. You about how they approached it or used it differently than maybe how you thought it would have been done.

I think we have the name right now. But you have a brand that I think was in Slack. There's talking with movie to figure out different. Opportunities and movie found fraud on their website. Wow.

And they were able to.

“You know say you need to maybe change some coupon codes up and that saved a couple hundred grand.”

I believe. Yeah. It's scale. But I think a lot of that was happening. That conversation was happening in Slack with the team.

You know, or you'll have teams kind of going back and forth with creative. And just in Slack mode, we'll practically can start to recommend ideas full. You know, whether it's image. Video. The whole thing right there and like a nice artifact.

You can download or publish it right from there. Right. So you see any use case you're seeing inside mobile right now. We just bring the party to you and slide. Yeah.

Yeah. Everyone already is. So it's kind of our. The ethos of how we built this like be where the people are. Right.

I mean, all the animations that you can do inside Slack as well. Like so automating reporting, automating budgets, automating. Creative production messages to your teammates. Right. You can just.

Yeah. Is there. You know, let's say like mobie is does mobile. No, for example, what my margins are and how I should be optimizing row as or how. You know, maybe a lower row as is actually better than a higher row as you.

You tell mobile your goals. Okay. And your goals and the completeness of your data is what's what is going to learn off of. So if you have your cogs in there, like actually like five full. Yeah.

Right. Like how much actually costs. Yep. We get the real true marginality of products and things like that. Whatever context you give the movie.

It knows and remembers until you tell it not to. Mm-hmm. And it will ask you things changed. Right. Or if there's conflicting people.

Yeah. And conflicting things. Yeah. So it'll. Practically raise things up to you.

Yeah. That's amazing. Yeah. It takes. If the data's there, it knows.

Yeah. Are there things that will be picked up that you, for example, a.

Media buyer or founder would never pick up on their own.

And they're in an at account or. Oh, I mean, look, it's. It's a robot. So. It's going to do.

It's always on. Yeah. And it's always looking. It's, you know, it's not waiting. Right.

So all day. Yeah. It's finding. Maybe you didn't realize you're running well on some stock. And it knows because this ad is pushing and selling certain skew.

We didn't know what's going on. Right. Maybe Google is taking. You know, claim on purchases that it shouldn't be. And they can tie maybe reallicator.

Yeah. Try this new channel. I mean, it's, it's always on. And it's. You have like a rules or nothing.

Right. You do rules inside meta. But you put rules. With LMS inside software. So there's like governed rules around it, which is.

It's good. Moby. But with the media by version of Moby is right. You can get some real magic out of it. Yeah.

Now going on to like the ads and landing pages piece. Yeah. Do you ever feel like? You know, if, if we were to put Moby on this, like we're losing that human touch or that approach, that special sauce that comes from a human doing the whole part.

“So the question is, do we, are we afraid that might happen?”

Yeah. Yeah. And of sure. That comes down to like training it. Right.

So nothing goes out with that approval. So we have a whole approval built in. And it's got permission to as access to these approvals. Right. Um, as opposed to maybe going into a cloud where it can kind of just go.

Right. Yeah. It has some anxiety along with that as well. Yeah. Well, I've heard anything.

Moby has a real governed layer. Yeah. How does that work? The Moby approval layer. Because I know it's actually something that's a pretty big piece of Moby.

Yeah.

So like there's business context in Moby where you can basically customize it.

And our team can help do that as well. Tell it. What's green? Well, what's red? Right.

You know, and pick that into like if a rule that you scale all ads at over a 1.7 And real ads or something like that, you put it in there. It's saved. It's not going to hallucinate because it's also built. Not only is the LOM in there, but you're software.

Yeah. The checks.

Basically the software system.

Right. With the LOM inside of it. So it has guard rails built into it. Right. And then you put your rules in there.

And like it's, it's good. Yeah. It's good. So whatever you talk to do it, it will do. Yeah.

We struggle with hallucination at the beginning. Right. I think everybody. Yeah. Once we got more and more into this.

And more and more people came into the space. And more solutions were out there. We had to deal with these things. I had to govern these things. Like we were on the top of all that.

Yeah. What do you think changes for brands that start using Moby on a weekly basis? I think the, you know, if you have the founder that's AI told and obsessed, you know,

“you can come to a trip away and you have everything you need to really start to transform”

your business in the new era that we're going into. And I think they want you to put the new Mary. You know, the human strategic and the human creativity, right?

I think you're always going to mean that stuff.

The direction, the feel for people want. I really found that AI can replace that, which I think is a good thing. Yeah. But you start to put on an Iron Man suit and sort of semi robotic. You get crazy efficiencies.

And then you get insights from what's our benchmark data set. So you start to see like what actually is working out there. Like you can start really, you know, have some outsized. Results from agentifying their whole organization. Yeah.

And we've seen businesses, you know, from on the low side on average of like 10% Rhoaz efficiency to up to 30% we've seen it, right? And that's just on the media buying side that we started. Right. The landing page creation is relatively new.

But when you start to push CVR up, which I think one of the best ways to do that is through dedicated landing pages and offers. Totally. Imagine creative as well. You start to see even more and things start to compound.

And then let's get, you know, you're logistic data. And then getting AI on top of that. It starts to really squeeze out and then new opportunities start to come. Yeah. I mean, even.

You could see how like. The optimism around AI can just bring so much opportunity to the world as opposed to like say the Doomer side was like, Oh, I mean, a number of jobs are all screwed. No.

“I think there's maybe going to be some displacement or something like that.”

Sure. Until we figure it out. But what that happens with every revolution. Yeah. Yeah.

I think also. I don't mean the the other thing you get that. You know, it's not talked about as much as like the speed and convenience more than anything. Right. Like you jump on X and you see that there's a new format of ads that work well from, you know,

these animated. AI ads that go to these listicles with those AI characters. Yeah. And right. Previously, that's a four or five week sprint from start to finish, right?

Now that's maybe a four to five hour project. That acts, you know, and used to have a team that used to have maybe outsourced, either by act, you know, hire actors, things like that. Yeah. As a video we made many years ago.

Funny video we did back in back in the day. It was like 250,000 bucks when you were casting scripts actors, you know, Yeah. We were just messing with some of the newer models. And we put was a 5.5 sign up 5.5.

But the newest, maybe I'm getting the wrong one, see dance 2.5 together. Mm-hmm. And totally like watch that video. And it made a video and one prompt like an hour that was on par. Wow.

You can really like the video capabilities are really coming. Yeah. And it's unbelievable. Yeah. The video stuff is next level.

And just how realistic it is, too. Oh, my god. You know, it's at this point, it's, you can't really tell. Yeah. You're like, if you're in there with it and prompting it and really governing it,

like you can, you can get unbelievable output. Yeah. Is there, like, what do you think for the differences for a brand that's doing,

“you know, 5 to 10 million a year versus 50 to 100 million a year?”

Like the smaller brands have even more access to like opportunity, right? In terms of systems of healthy scale. Like 10, 15 years ago, you're running a brand like it's hard. You're like doing everything. It's a founder.

You can start to really put some agents on your, your org chart if you have one. Yeah. You have an org chart, right? And start to leverage and get more out, you know? Are there specific agents you see people set up first, like, for example,

maybe on the media buying side, maybe on the creative side, maybe on the project management side.

Like always starts with reporting.

Yeah. People wanting to enter. Dashies, everybody wants a dashi. If people still want our dashboard, right, they just become, and they even had everything set up. Like I said, the brands that are super, I told and it's got like everything,

MCP, and they've got cloud talking to mobile, crazy things. But if they don't have data coming back to like our summary page, because they want real time or lack of, like, it's always on. So there's always going to be a place for, you know, dashboards and things like that. Yeah.

But in terms of the first use case that we see that people set up, it's always around reporting business reporting. Yeah. Like actually getting accurate reporting, they can share with your partner, or your team, or if you're a bigger brand, like, you know, the sea sweet things like that.

Right. Yeah. And I think to the dashboards. There's going to go to the media buying like budget. Yeah. Budget changing things like that.

Right. Can we play with the creative? Yeah. I find it like, static sort of, because stacks are, you know, they've been good for a while now.

I want to say, I sign, right. Yeah. And only getting better with the asteroid and the new soul.

“But I think dashboards I found are kind of the easiest way.”

To get people onboarded to AI. Like everybody that I've probably gotten, I don't know, 50 to 100 different people really immersed in AI this year. And maybe 30 to 40 of them with, you know, a Mac mini with a Hermes set up on there.

Mm-hmm.

And the first thing everybody does is basically set up dashboards.

You know, they want to see how to set it up. The fact that they can see, they can build their own dashboards and connect multiple data sources and all of that. And then it kind of gets them that inch to go and see, all right, what other agents can I go and make?

Yeah. Yeah. And our approach to that was like, okay, we have like our keystone dashboard. Like that summary page.

It kind of gives you, you know, the lay of the land that we brought in like, mobile on top of as a chat box and recommended prompts based on the data you're looking at. And they're dynamic. And like that shot usage up to.

We also put it on like the attribution page and things like that. Yeah. And then that's a good, like, you know, and whatever and totally. Yeah, couldn't agree more.

Yeah. You guys have the BFCM command center here coming up for Black Friday. A lot of brands are already, you know, basically switched it on and have started working with it. But could you tell us a little bit about what,

what's in the BFCM command center,

“what makes it special and how is mobile powering that?”

Yeah. Essentially, the BFCM command center has. As you all more to tell you what's what your goals. What are your plans? Your goals.

How did you do last year? Compared to your competitors, right? Whether it's from Facebook ads public library or even our, our benchmark data set. And then you plan it, you go.

It tells you what you're missing. What you need to do. And you can essentially track higher pacing throughout the whole weekend. Yeah. Life pacing, live data.

Basically, you have an analyst and your whole team.

Right. Right. Like, just essentially have your meeting. You're standing up with that thing on the screen share. Watching how you're doing.

Yeah. And what's interesting, too, is like the whole team has access to that every unit of the day versus just finding those numbers in those meetings. Correct. Yeah.

Jump in, check it out. That's right there on the, in the nav. Yeah. Compend it, come back to it later. Amazing.

What is, uh, what's something that, you know, people, they'll onboard to trip a whale or, or maybe they're on trip a whale that they haven't started using mobile yet. What is something they can go and, you know, the listening to this episode now,

they can go and do tomorrow to start to see that, uh, that ball or a snowball starting to roll down the hill. I mean, right now for free, you can go on a trip a whale and start and just connect all your, yeah, and the free plan, you get all your data.

So start connecting all your data. You start to automate reporting, right? But you can also start messing around with the creative stuff. Right. Yeah.

Once you connect your Facebook ads, it'll look at which ads have been performing well. And you can have it make five variations of this ad. Right. They can flat land.

And the difference by the way, too, is, uh, that tomorrow. Yeah, mobile has a lot of skills to make ads, but then as well versus if you were to go to like a cloud, you'd get something totally off brand. This is going to count.

Yeah. It looks like AI. Exactly. And mobile is, is really purpose built for your commerce. Mm-hmm.

Like our team is building skills, right? To help you help you get successful relative, quickly. Yeah. So when you onboard, um,

with a brand guideline that will automatically start to,

like basically scrape your site,

get your colors, get your logo, look at your assets and make sure that what a producer looks like you're brand. Right. Which is huge.

Yeah. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you feel like founders need to understand or, or marketers need to understand about mobile or about triple whale or kind of how the product is, you know,

“where the product is today and like what it does for brands?”

I really think we hit a lot of it. I want to say that like the measurement piece that the pixel piece. Yeah. It's really at the heart of all this, right? Like one of the modes that we've built for ourselves is this data.

Right. The way that it's different than let's just say a cloud is that, first of all, it's purpose, both for e-commerce, but at the core of it is the source of truth on customer journeys. Right.

Which ad channels are most profitable? How do we know? And so the pixel added heart and it's heart and the attribution. It's heart is like the, you know, the heart beat of this thing. Right.

Um, because you can trust it, right? Um, And so, and not only that, we have this data, but as a merchant, you can leverage like our, we have custom attribution with meta.

So you can take that attribution model and put it back in the meta, and it will optimize off that. Like that is showing results. Yeah. But you have this whole system.

You know, you have this whole system. And it's like built on the back of performance, marketing architecture. And it's just like you can unlock. You can unlock.

Unlock is probably the big keyword here. Like, yeah, a lot of this stuff allows you to unlock, you know, whether it's a process you wanted to try, whether it's a skill you wanted to build, a routine you wanted to build.

All these things that you've maybe wanted to do at some point.

The mobies is really the unlock to get to that other side.

And if you're busy.

“And like, you're not everyone can sit around and try everything.”

Yeah. Talk about our team can help. Yeah. We have a context engineering team. We can deploy into your, into your business and help.

Yeah. What is that number one workflow that's going to be the most impactful that start to kind of.

Hey, gentified, we can help you do that.

Yeah. Yeah. I think it's awesome. How you guys are actually helping brands like get on board and start to use it. You know, not. The adoption curves are all over the place.

Right. Yeah. Amazing. Well, acts working people reach out to you.

Or if they've got questions that are just maybe follow-ups.

They want to ask.

“I think it's going to shut me on on on X.”

Um. My email. I wish I'd publicly say it. I don't care. He might guess it.

Yeah. It's not so hard. It'll be max of two X's at triple will.com. Reach out to me. I hope you get set up.

But I like to like still be in the trenches very much with hands and businesses. And the entrepreneurship story is my story. It's also like what I love to do and help people grow and build their own businesses. Yeah. Thank you.

That keeps me fired up. Amazing. You can reach out to me there. Perfect. Well, Max.

Thank you for coming on and explaining all this. I love our interactions and evolution of our friendship and business. So mentor pass. Yeah. For mentor pass.

Well, sending you voice memos. Three in the morning. Good night. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. No. It's been awesome. Thank you for coming. Thanks for listening.

We'll be back next time to cut through the noise on CPG retail and e-commerce.

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