Elizabeth Siders Wants Her Kids Back, Nolan Wells Death Investigation, and Lindsay Clancy Murder Trial Begins, with Alison Motta

I'm joined today by my good friend and co-host Phil Holloway. He's a fellow criminal defense lawyer, a former prosecutor, and also a former police officer.

“Hey Phil, how are you? Actually, I'm great. I'm coming to you today from my secret hidden beach bunker on vacation, but glad to be here with you.”

It's good to see you. Well, let's talk about what we've got on the docket. So first we're going to cover some updates in the cider family case out of Ohio.

The mother is charged with child endangerment for confining her 16 children to one filthy room for years and she is seeking reunification with her kids. We will discuss. And also a Mississippi teenager disappeared and was later found dead after a fourth of July party. We'll give you the details on the Nolan Wells case, and why his parents think his death may have been more than just a terrible accident.

“Yeah, and then later on in the program, we're going to be joined by attorney and co-host of the defense diaries podcast Allison Mata.”

She will be joining us to discuss the trial of Lindsay Clancy. She's the Massachusetts mom who is accused of murdering her free young children back in 2023.

And she's mounting a very interesting defense based on postpartum depression and other mental illness. So before that though, let's talk about the cider family case fell. So this case just to catch our audience up. It's very interested. And as a reminder, we've got four adults that were arrested in rural Ohio after the police discovered that they were holding 16 children in a single 12 by 12 room for several years. The children have been described as nearly feral having had no access to medical care or education for many many years. And it's raised the question of how so many kids could be abused and neglected without government agencies ever intervening or even really knowing what's going on.

Now we know that the two older siders who's Gary cider and Christina, they're the children's paternal grandparents. So they were receiving state benefits while the children were left their grandchildren, essentially, were left to rot in a 12 by 12 room. And it sounds like they were all living together in this home in some extreme levels of poverty. And what I thought was interesting, Phil, is that the reason that the police came out and found these poor children is because they're dad, so Junior, Gary, Junior, apparently exposed himself to someone.

Yeah, so they were investigating that alleged crime and they had a search warrant. And you know, I guess they had no idea what they were walking in it on, you know, this is just not the kind of thing that law enforcement expects to see every day and thank God that they don't see it every day.

“But this does actually make me wonder if these children could basically be overlooked by the world, right?”

How many other children could there be who are in this kind of need? And it all goes back to parents, right? The parents literally had these kids off the radar.

They were investigated for truotsie at a previous address, but then they moved before they could be served with the truotsie papers to get into court. And they were just said, look, they just weren't found. And so the next thing you know, here we have this situation and you got all these adults. And one of them is actually out on a signature bond, I guess, because he has health problems. This is the elder Gary Ciders at 71 years old, but this whole thing is absolutely crazy. In fact, our friend, Angelette Levy has been covering this. We have sought one, which is her discussing these previous truotsie allegations from Gallia County.

These records show that in October 2021 complaints have been filed against Elizabeth and Gary Ciders, because six of their children were considered truont, meaning they were chronically absent from school. The complaint states the child's name, which we have blacked out, then it states that Gary and Elizabeth have failed to cause said child to attend some school or class as required by law. The child has been absent from school without legitimate excuse for the entire 2021 2022 academic year to present an amount and excess of 72 hours for the school year.

And as such is thereby a habitual truont parents whose children are determined to be habitually truont and do not get their kids to school can face fines or even child neglect charges. Eventually the complaints were terminated in January of 2022, a document states the court finds that Elizabeth Ciders is unable to be served and the whereabouts of Elizabeth Ciders are unknown to the court. Therefore it is hereby the order of the court that the above matter be terminated until the availability of Elizabeth Ciders. The same document was filed for Gary Jr. The named father of the children. The court couldn't find Gary and Elizabeth or the children.

And you think the system had to failed I mean there are 16 kids living in squalor but I don't know where.

“And you've got this county that is an extremely poor county I mean this county we've got reports where they had to actually get special permission now that these 16 kids are in foster care.”

They had to get special permission to get an extra million dollars from the state in order just to provide the necessary services that these kids need.

So we've got that indicating that this is a very poor county and apparently it's super small also because these 16 kids almost doubled the amount of kids that were in foster care in this county. Plus we've got the dad who you mentioned earlier grandpa. I'm sorry who is actually out on a bond. Why is he out on a bond? Well he's out on a bond because he slipped and fell and harmed himself and has a medical condition and the county can't afford his medical care. So if you know how it works is if you're arrested and you need medical care and you're not out on bond the government has to pay for it the county has to pay for it.

Well they let him out because they couldn't afford to pay for his medical care so you know that is another indication that this is an extremely poor county.

“So if you think about it you know there's not a lot of resources out there and the government doesn't just go out to people's homes and look and check in on their kids.”

Some of the reports say that you know there were birth certificates for these kids of course there's birth certificates but you and I both have kids and we know you walk out the door to them. There's no follow up. And as an agent was talking about there see these truancy cases were closed back in January of 2022 basically with a court order saying you know we can't find these parents to serve them. Therefore we're just going to close the case.

What we don't know is why somebody perhaps at the sheriff's office with a district attorney why somebody in a position of authority didn't see this red flag and say hey wait.

If we can't find the kids maybe we should try to find the kids maybe we should try to put them out on some kind of a be on the lookout list right we need to put out some flyers we need to put. Make a little extra effort to see just what in the world happened to these kids because they were here and they weren't in school and now they are no longer here and they left behind this very filthy house.

“These kids could be in danger and maybe just maybe we should go and look for them so I think there was definitely some failures by those in charge in fact.”

I was looking at that that sought with with the engineer and I saw the judge say the judge is signature and I'm thinking if I'm the judge and I'm signing this document I'm probably going to ask somebody to go and lift a finger to find these kids. Right exactly well that's you know there's different systems that we have in place to try to be these checks and balances you know we don't want to send government workers out to every home in America to make sure your kids are okay you know that's intrusive.

So we're trying to balance it and one of the ways that we do that like you talked about Phil is with these truancy applications because every kid has to go to school.

So if you don't and I know this from personal experience during COVID you know when the school's closed here we actually as a family made a decision to do an alternative type school where we had to declare home school. So I learned about it and you can't just withdraw your kids from school and just not you know be anywhere. I had to actually file a certification declaring that my kids were in home school and you know following up with the government so that they would know what was happening. And you know this is the the opportunity to catch these children in this type of situation is with these truancy applications.

And the fact that the parents just moved probably what happened and it's unfortunate happens every day. The government was like we have limited resources they probably moved on to another county not our problem anymore and then just you know move on. And you look at these children who've suffered you know there's been a lot of reports about the grandfather having some type of public benefits but it's my understanding that he had more like a senior aid sort of thing. You know Medicare Medicaid something because of their advanced age and that's not where the government's really going to go check on you.

You know we're not talking about something where it's like a child or family services type aid where the government goes out and actually looks at your house. So you know it's it's it's shining a light on a big failure and I hope that this is going to cause the government when they get these truancy applications to take a little bit more seriously. What happened these poor children and I hope we get reports in the upcoming days that the children are doing good and have been placed. I know several of them had to go to the hospital and they had some very serious I mean it's serious medical issues but I can't even imagine the psychological trauma that these children have suffered.

Well, I mean the new owner of the house that was vacated and Gallia County said that the quote the whole entire house was just urine. Human and pet feces so it was pretty rough and said that the attic was just a crammed full of kids clothing but speaking of transparency we've got something going on in this case actually that you don't like and that I don't like.

And I get that you want to protect the integrity of the investigation but but you know these gag orders I look I don't want to get too much up on my soapbox but these judges are just too.

“To quick sign off on these things I think we need to have gag orders should be the exception rather than the rule but they're very popular.”

And I'm with you I'm I just like them I think there's a reason that our constitution says we should have open and public trials and open and public courtrooms you know and at the time that that that was written into the constitution it meant something a little bit different that it means here today. But we're court system we need to adapt we can figure out ways to do it and there's definitely alternatives you know I know there's been some some question about sequestering jurors and things like that but that's not really needed when you're actually properly instructing the jurors and talking to them about not looking at new sources.

The public has a right to know I mean this is our system we have a right to know and we've got a case we're going to be talking about a few minutes where you know the whole squabble about it the Nolan Wells case is about transparency in the system. So you've got these two you know situations where it's like we don't want anybody to talk about it or no and then it's like we're upset because we want more transparency. I mean my whole philosophy is just you know sunshine is the best disinfectant so let everybody know everything try not to keep things from people and then you'll figure it out during jury selection which is kind of ironic because we're going to be talking about that.

And later on in the show with the clansy so they all kind of go together on you know this whole transparency but.

“You know the thing that's really I think upsetting and the big thing in the news right now in the slider case is that the mom.”

Is it this. Yeah apparently she was a child bride you know she was about 15 when she got married and started pumping out babies I mean 16 babies in 15 years that is absolutely insane. But I know a lot of them are twins which you know that was interesting but the thing about this is she is now trying to reunify with her children not going to happen. That tells me is she crazy legit to mentally crazy the fact that she's even asking I mean I can't imagine if you were her lawyer fill and she said hey you know so can you try to file a motion so I can get custody of my kids I'd say hell no hell no.

So her now she's also complaining about her bond her bond is 300 thousand dollars and she's not able to make it of course.

But you know her her council is doing a good job advocating for her trying to get her. She essentially a signature bond just like her father-in-law has. He's saying look you know she wants to get out she wants to do the things that she needs to do to qualify herself to be reunited with her children and I'm thinking to myself what in the hell could you possibly do to get yourself qualified to be reunited with your children when you're having them live and a 12 by 12 room it's essentially a jail cell.

You know in horrific conditions that that you know we talk about the Fulton County jail being the house of hearts this place makes the Fulton County jail. Look like the Atlanta Hilton because these kids this was torture and she's got the nerve to say to the court she needs to be out on a signature bond so that she can get her shit together to be a good mom. That just that doesn't pass this melting. It doesn't and I can't even imagine a judge actually hearing that I can't imagine a lawyer having to write that I mean I feel bad for them you know I understand.

I educate for your client advocate to get a bond I'm all about that but advocate for you to be able to reunite with your children.

“Hell no but I think we're going to be following this and we're going to be hearing a whole lot more about this case.”

We will definitely keep everyone up to date on this and hopefully we'll get some reports soon about how the kids are doing. The wellness space is packed with promises I get it but I've got to tell you about veracity's metabolism ignite. No complicated routine no major lifestyle overhaul. You can take it in the morning and move on with your day. You know that feeling when it's mid afternoon and suddenly you're wandering into the kitchen looking for something anything to snack on.

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They want to talk about another case that is sort of you know the opposite where we don't know a whole lot at all and this is a case out of Mississippi. It's the Nolan Wells case and this was a young man in 18 year old who was he was a community college student. He's a football player and he was at a fourth of July party at an island called Horn Island and it's off the coast of Mississippi.

He left his phone behind on the boat and then he was last seen around 3pm that day but later days later he was found dead on the island two days later.

And they believe that he was found dead from drowning. And what's happened in this case why this is in the news is you know not only is this a tragedy where the young man has died, but the family has hired some lawyers and they're all talking about we need more transparency.

And as parents he nobody's telling us anything you know I guess they want some answers a little bit faster you and I know that's not exactly how it works fill,

but they're saying they've hired Ben Crumpen or saying well it's you know it's probably racially motivated because this is Mississippi and he was a black kid and so that's probably why we're not getting the answers. All of his friends were apparently Caucasian it's it's the simplest answer is usually the correct one it's everything is not a vast conspiracy if you think look at it I'm squarely in the camp of this was some type of an accidental drowning right and by the way. You know as well as I know that these lawyers that are now involved they know what the cause and manner of death was because it doesn't take that long to get the reports back from an autopsy I mean there might be a little bit of a delay for.

“toxicology but when you're talking about a drowning situation they already know that if it was a drowning they already know that that's what it was and so why this is being dragged out I can't say.”

I've got my opinions on that but I'll just keep them to myself for now, but I think that the simplest explanation is the right one I think that these are teenagers doing what teenagers do and for whatever reason even if the parents feel it was out of character. No one else decided to stay around because probably he was interested in a girl or something like that and he separated from his regular friends and then things happened that unfortunately sometimes happened when kids and alcohol get together and.

It created a tragedy but I don't think it's any more nefarious than a simple tragic accident. Yeah you know felt I completely agree with you and you know I was thinking two things when I was updating myself on the story you know first I was thinking well these parents think they know they're tried out that well well he's a teenage boy. I mean you've got a teenage daughter I've got a teenage daughter we know I mean we we're very close with our kids but we don't know everything and I don't want to know everything and I shouldn't know everything.

And so the fact that this kid is out there maybe you know talking all lady and maybe drinking alcohol I mean that you know those are things that parents don't tend to know we don't you know we're not our kids peers and so maybe they didn't know. And I'm sure that they're horrified I mean they're I can't even imagine the trauma that they're going through losing their child and I would want answers to the thing that I get when I read all of the reports and what's going on with the police is there's nothing unusual about this how this case is being handled.

So there's there's the family is reportedly conducting a private investigation in parallel with the official investigation and you know by the way authorities don't ever cooperate with the private investigation never never do in their own. It's a criminal investigation because it's presumably criminal until it's proven otherwise so the cops are investigating this but there there's been a fundraiser and they've raised more than 700 thousand dollars.

“What is that 700 thousand dollars being spent on specifically do you have any idea how these people are spending that money to investigate this case?”

The only thing that I know that would be probably the largest expense would be a private autopsy and still a private autopsy it's not 700 thousand. Not at all I mean you've got the autopsy and then you've got the you know potential testimony, but it's not even going to be close to that so I wonder they're obviously spending it on that they're spending it on investigators. And you know you mentioned something fill about this parallel investigation it sounds to me like the family and the lawyers for the family they really don't like how the police are doing their job.

And I got to tell you I don't love the secrecy behind how the police do their jobs it bugs me when I represent victims because contrary to popular belief I represent victims in crime cases as well as as defendants and it always bothers me because.

“They don't have the access and I think victims particularly victims families should be able to have full access and they don't but it's not a racial thing that's how the police operate and I've always thought there should be a better system.”

But I've never been a cop and so I'm sure there's some really good reason for their whole cloud of secrecy.

I can tell you here that the merchant law firm we represent a lot of victims families mainly my husband john in civil rights litigation and one of the hardest things he has is handling explaining to families when they're deceased you know when they're loved one is deceased particularly when the police aren't releasing their investigator reports why. And it's just it's very common so you know I think this is more of a problem with the system where it's being couched as a racial issue and I think it's more of a problem with the system.

We do know we do know what some witnesses are saying some witnesses are saying that Nolan chose to stay at the party after the friends that he had arrived with had decided to leave.

“He planned to return to the mainland later with a different group of friends than the ones that he came with and his father says that would be out of character let's take a listen to that with sought to.”

And I just want to ask you to friends that Nolan traveled to Horn Island with they said he stayed behind voluntarily do you why would he stay behind. That's we cannot answer I just. I can't I can't father why he would like I don't know why he would.

We always talk him to if you go with a group you stay with the group even when he was in college.

“He was a dad where we're going to write down to a party or something in another city.”

I was I was telling a little if you go with five you come back if I do not separate from the group. I was a savings in numbers and I would say yes sir so he knew to stay with his group so why would he split from his group I don't know. Why do people ever split with their group fell girls. Friends girls their teenagers and they do things that don't make sense I mean boys girls and boys and boys and boys and boos that's it.

“And teenage hormones I mean I'm sorry but like half the time I tell my kids my job is to make sure that you're alive still when you get through the teenage face because you do stupid things that's what they do their teenagers.”

So you know don't get us on our soap box but anyway we've got another story that we're going to be talking about next we've got defense diaries co-host Alice and moda and she is joining the show to discuss this. awful awful tragic triple murder case of post-pottom part of mom Lindsey Clancy. Did you know that three out of four U.S. homes have toxic chemicals in their tap water. The contaminated water looks clear it could put you at risk for devastating health concerns including fatigue hormone disruption cognitive decline and even cancer.

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Let me just set this up with just a little quick background for those of you who might be new to this particular story so Massachusetts mother Lindsey Clancy age 35 she's charged with the murder of her children by strangling them. There was Korra age five Dawson age three and Kalin who was seven months. She's accused of strangling them to death on January 24, 2023. Korra and Dawson were pronounced dead when they arrived at the hospital Kalin died a few days later. Clancy has conceded through her attorneys that she caused the deaths of her children however she argues that she was not criminally responsible because she committed the acts while in the midst of a severe mental health crisis she's pleaded not guilty.

Prosecutors say that Clancy strangled her children using exercise bands in the family home before she cut herself with knives and jumped out of a second story window.

So Allison we've got a mental health defense we've got this you know we've got Miss Clancy is saying that mentally that she was mentally ill and we've got a series of medications that she was prescribed over you know the years it sounds like she'd been treated for several years. She was prescribed prosac, ambient, clonopen, Sarah quill, trasodone, valium, remeron, I mean these are these are not minor little titles I mean these are anti psychotic medicines and some serious anti depressants so tell us what is going on with this this defense.

So the problem with this defenses you've got obviously the atrocity of the case and you already have people who when they think of postpartum depression some people think okay postpartum depression like please you're going to tell me that this this is what was going on with her.

“But she had documented postpartum depression that was exacerbated up to the level of postpartum psychosis because of all of these medications she was seeing doctors she was begging for help.”

She was telling her doctors her family everyone that she felt she could harm herself and she could harm her children she even checked herself in for mental inpatient mental health treatment but the problem was her doctors weren't. Communicating with one another they're all prescribing her these different things and no one's tracking it making sure how it's respond how she's responding to it and the worst part about it was was with these SSRIs she already had like a triggering event from the first time that made her symptoms worse and so they should have known this and there is a civil complaint that has been filed against the doctors that really lays out their negligence and their.

Their recklessness in treating her and in identifying postpartum bipolar disorder so I you know I really think that she's got a strong defense and there's a lot of medical background to it and I just hope they can find a jury that can be open minded when you're faced with such horrible crimes against these innocent children.

“Right about so much this there's a lot of people that just don't think that postpartum is is real but it is real I've never been a mother of course but I can tell you postpartum is real and you know what else is real.”

Misdiagnosis of mental health conditions is real over medication in the context of mental health medications is also very real let's just look at that list again pros act ambient remoron.

I'm a pharmacist friend of mine texted me earlier that no responsible prescriber would fail to coordinate these meds with other prescribers and yes this combination can make someone experience psychotic symptoms such as hallucinations delusions paranoia agitation or disorganized thinking.

“Whether or not she's guilty of these crimes or not I guess we'll have to wait until all of the evidence comes out but what I can tell you is that the defense is not without merit okay there is something to it and if her lawyers can deliver.”

I believe that they have the making of very real reasonable doubt in this case and I think felt we've got let's listen to sought three and then love your thoughts on the defense we've got sought three which is actually her lawyers at arrangement talking about this sort of previewing their defense if we can play that. I'm going to be very careful anybody that you speak to prior to this incident to lose nothing last night they marbles incredible mother of course you have a woman who is obviously suffering and post pound depression and how do we know that.

And we know that because in the weeks and months prior she was in such a state to was unable to be able to was unable to feel she had no ability to love whether it was her husband or her kids and she's all pattern her husband. She's in such a state as a result of the post pattern as well as the medication that she designed that her husband had to have her mother and father and his mother and father basically stay at the house for weeks. So I'm sorry because she was unable to function that he had to work and work out of the house, but you also have to leave us. So this is the condition that she was in, she obviously had no reason to kill those three beautiful children.

And they have no defense case. They do and what they didn't talk about there is the voices that she was hearing that she was hearing voices compelling her to act and it started with voices compelling her to to her herself and escalated into voices telling her to her children to on a live herself and her children and she talked about hearing these voices and you know that's part of the thing that rose to the level of hallucinations.

“Not just like the voice in your head this is a voice saying over and over and over again that she needs to do these things and we also heard I'm not sure if you saw you guys saw this part of the one of the court proceedings.”

I think it was during the motions and lemonade where the defense was trying to get in just stories witnesses from the public because the lawyer had been emailed by so many women saying what they suffered on on similar medications in similar situations the hearing voices and he wanted the emotional impact of real life witnesses.

The judge ultimately said no you can do all this through experts you know bringing in just people who suffered something similar it doesn't work quite right in the courtroom.

But then last thing that did happen is they had some experts that have been excluded because the defense at least according to the the filings and Bob and I need to follow up on the most recent hearing but according to the filings they didn't produce information about some of their experts early enough and the court as right.

“The court excluded them there quite a few quite a few experts I mean it sounded like some of them may have been cumulative which you know just means for our viewers extra you know like cherry on top they already had the they already had this stuff.”

You know one of the things I was thinking there was a defense lawyer if they didn't get those experts and are not even experts I'm sorry the lay witnesses to talk about postpartum depression so let me show some moms on there because one of the things that really struck me was you know if you she didn't she wasn't sleeping and that's typical and everyone who's had babies at home especially moms we know that she was breastfeeding. You know she had all that stuff going on and if you go without sleep for 48 hours you hallucinate your body hallucinates you can have no mental illness but you're going to hallucinate and so that sleep deprivation I think will really hit home with a lot of the jurors.

But you know I keep thinking I keep going back to the to the prosecution and you know they're saying that these are premeditated murders and we you know we have sought for will listen to it in just a minute but. How in the world does the state think this is premeditated that's what I don't get like how in the world does the state actually think that she did they think that she spent three years planting these seeds in her in her medical records you know taking all these medicines.

Volunteerally checking herself into psych ward psych hospitals like they really think that that was some big plan of attack I mean that's insane to me.

“I feel the exact same way actually like you make a hundred percent valid points and hopefully the jury sees I think the one thing that they're relying on which there is.”

A factual dispute about the timing of is like they're prefacing it that she sent her husband to go get dinner and sent him far away so she had enough time to do these things now again there was a civil complaint file that laid out that factual timeline very differently so I think that's something to look for at trial but also you know you can be. Psychotic and suffering psychosis and hearing voices and still be able to have a normal conversation and still be able to think I have to do these things because I'm being compelled to do them and in a sense plan you know.

But I don't think it was planned the way the state is saying and and as you're describing it's like look she was an amazing mother like there's no question about that she loved her kids and everybody says it so I'm disputed well it's right. The lawsuit that the thing of the lawsuit which I believe by the way the lawsuit was I think a brilliant move because now that is they're going to get access to additional discovery they'll be able to get depositions of those doctors and probably learn information that will help with their defense in the.

In the criminal case, but in reading from it, they say land Lindsey Clancy did everything a mother in her situation could do.

The lawsuit says it says goes on to say that she sought treatment went to emergency rooms contacted crisis services admitted herself to hospitals. She reported her worsening symptoms to family and others. The filing offers basically this medical narrative that they're going to use throughout this trial to I think point out that look she did not have.

You don't have the union of the actis rayis and the men's raya you don't have the union of the guilty act and the guilty mind and therefore by definition you have no crime so that's where the defense is going with this. I was thinking about the burden of proof in these insanity cases and it's different state by state you know for viewers every state gets to pick how their criminal laws are enacted and in Massachusetts as soon as you raise insanity the burden shifts to the prosecution and what does that mean that means that the burden is on the prosecution to prove that she was sane beyond a reasonable doubt and that's a big deal because typically you know the defense we we have to prove we have to prove that you know that our client was not sane.

I think you're the state actually has to prove that she was sane. So I think that's significant but let's listen to to sought for which is what the prosecution seems to think they are going to be able to prove in this case. This is them in a arrangement talking about you know how they think that Lindsey took advantage of her husband's absence and created it. On the night of the killing attack point to interview by the police of the hospital he told the police of the defendant which having one of her best days to smiling and happy. There was no indication she was going to have a kid and no one described her as acting like a zombie in the days leading up to the martyrs along with the martyrs himself.

“She consistently denied hearing voices are any having any kind of visual or audit of toward hallucinations to all her treatment providers we may have to listen to.”

The first time she used psychosis was when she was with the doctor hired by the fence and using his phone to call her husband from the hospital.

This was the first time she told someone she heard a voice. She finished strangling the children returned her husband's phone call and went up to the bathroom on the second floor. She then dropped from the window or slit down. She did not jump. She did not throw herself out of it because there are blood and blood on the exterior shingles going down. Yeah, exterior house and then on the window directly below the window she came out of there's more blood on the top level. I'm going to try to grab one of those. The defendant did not take advantage of the situation when her husband went out that night she created.

“She has a map to make sure she doesn't have time to do what she wanted to do to the kids before her husband was pregnant.”

All right, I just I got to say this because this stuff makes me so mad every time I hear a prosecutor saying the defendant reported okay we have a mentally ill person in a crisis who's adding medical facility and they're asking them questions. And she said, Oh, well, she didn't report having hallucinations or she did report. So we're relying on someone who is literally an active psychosis to give their medical history and that is apparently the Bible to this prosecutor. I mean, that's insane to me. You know, she meets the standard of being committed to actually be admitted to a mental institute, but we think her own narrative of what's going on in her mind is accurate.

Sorry, I just had to go off on that firm. No, her husband is going to back her up. He's going to testify for her.

He actually believes that she was not in her right mind and we've got that slot five is is Patrick Clancy to CBS Boston on this very issue. Here's Patrick Clancy's own words to a reporter at the New Yorker. There's no house anymore. There are no kids. All that's left is me and Lindsay. His wife Lindsay Clancy currently living in a psychiatric hospital awaiting trial for strangling their three kids ages five three and eight months before attempting her own suicide. I wasn't married to a monster. I was married to someone who got sick.

More than a year and a half later, Patrick still contends that his wife was not in her right mind. To go back in time, I'd have called McClain and said take her away, lock the door.

“Keeper in there for a year if you have to. Patrick said none of her mental health providers warned him of postpartum psychosis.”

Did you plan this? Is that why you sent me out? She said no. It was just like a snap of the fingers.

Patrick told the New Yorker the couple has finally started communicating more after six months of silence.

She misses her kids, which I know sounds crazy to some people, but that's the reality. It's heartbreaking. I can't even imagine what that's going through what they're going through. But the fact that he's standing by her, that just solidifies to me that this is true. This is a mental health defense. This is a valid defense because these are his kids too. I mean, he's the alleged victim here. And it's one of the reasons I think it's upsetting that the prosecution is really taking this stance because he's the one that really speaks for the victims.

Why can't they just accept that and let her go to a mental institute where she can get the help she needs?

Why do they need her to go to prison? I don't understand this. And I mean, like speaking of prosecutorial discretion. I mean, you guys in your career working with a lot of prosecutors. I mean, I don't think people understand it's like, it's like a fiction out there sometimes. You know, it's just like they've got this discretion.

“But I mean, I can remember like one of the first cases walking out of law school and into an into a courtroom in Philadelphia.”

And it was like a, you know, a drug addict situation. And I was like, what are you guys doing? And like why are you doing it? And you know, you learn very quickly like whoever has the discretion.

They're keeping it to themselves and they're very using it. Yeah, they are. Well, so it sounds like they've got five jurors seated and we verified that fellow was able to verify that they've actually seated five jurors three women and two men. So it sounds like they're going to have a couple more days of jury selection. I know there were some issues about whether or not they wanted to sequester them, but the judge has said, no, we're not sequestering the jurors.

“He's going to just pull them. You know, ask them if they've had any media influence or seen any media reports. So I think that will be interesting to see if they can keep, you know, keep the media out of this for them.”

For them, is that why we need 18 jurors? I mean, I think he said he's going to see 18 jurors. And I don't think that's obviously 18 voting jurors, but it sounds to me like six alternatives. Is that because you got to think that's because of the pretrial publicity or do you think that's because they're going to hear heartbreaking testimony and some of them just may not be able to finish. What do you think? I think both. The absolute what you said it's it's to Ashley's point. They've decided not to sequester. So there's a lot of risk of exposure. But I think to fill what you just said is got to be a big one. That's weighing on the judges mind that these people, you know, you're going to hear

really emotional testimony. You're going to see horrific pictures because talking about that process frio discretion. They like to pull on the on the sympathy card. Even though you've got a defendant sitting there saying, I know what I did. I did those things. Let's talk about why I did them. So I think it's definitely both things that well, the crime scene photos and this one I think would be enough to I think calls a lot of jurors to to possibly not be able to to finish their jury service. Maybe the judges concerned about that. But we will have to leave it there Allison. Thank you very much for being with us today. But before we let you go, tell our audience where they can find you.

Well, defense diaries podcast on YouTube and defense diaries on all your your podcast. What do you call those podcasts? That's all the platforms. All the platforms are everywhere. Thank you so much for coming in up next. Ashley and I will have our closing arguments. So stick around.

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“Now it's time for our closing arguments, Phil. Will you get us started?”

Yes, actually, I would be thrilled to get us started because I have been off since the conclusion of the Tyler Robinson preliminary hearing, or at least the conclusion of the court case, because the judge, as we know, still hasn't ruled on whether or not there's probable cause. And this is something that absolutely blows my mind. It's not that hard. It doesn't take a month to figure this out. So let's talk about what probable cause is and what it means in the real world.

Okay, this is a standard of proof. It's not the lowest standard of proof known to our law, but it is close to the lowest standard of proof.

This hearing is not a mini trial as some people like to call it because there's nobody deciding guilt or innocence and the rules of evidence don't even apply in their entirety.

“It's sole purpose is to determine if there is probable cause to believe a crime was committed and that the defendant is probably the one who committed it.”

That's it. It's not more complicated than that. This burden is much lower than the beyond a reasonable doubt burden of proof that will be required at the actual trial. As I mentioned, the rules of evidence are relaxed and hearsay is usually allowed and since there's no jury present presumably an experienced jurist a judge can filter through well here in the south we would say can separate the week from the chat.

He can determine for himself which evidence is most probative only issue of probable cause because of this low threshold prosecutors can meet it with the absolute minimum amount of evidence.

In the real world, this usually means testimony from just one investigating officer. That's it. One cop and this person can provide a summary for everything else and he can even provide hearsay testimony. This minimal approach is strategically smart for several key reasons if you're the prosecutor because first it preserves the powerful element of surprise for the real trial. The defense does not get an early detail preview of the witness statements or the full prosecution case which would allow them to better prepare specific rebuttals.

Second, it limits how much free discovery the defense can gain by cross-exemining witnesses at this very early stage. Third, it protects important witnesses from being locked into testimony too soon which could create impeachment material later at trial. Fourth, revealing less means fewer opportunities for the defense to successfully challenge or file additional pre trial motions before the main event. It also keeps sensitive investigative details, methods and sources under wraps and that's very important since most cases are constantly being investigated up to an even through sometimes the conclusion of the trial.

Ultimately, this strategy gets the case bound over for trial without giving away the prosecutions full strength or their strategy. It maintains flexibility. It maximizes the advantage when the higher burden of proof and the stricter rules will apply at the actual trial. That's actually back to you. All right. Well, thanks, Phil, and thanks for joining us from your vacation. So my closing argument, I want to talk a little bit about this Lindsey, Lindsey, Clancy case.

“It's got me thinking a lot about something that's been really at the forefront of my mind for years and honestly it's one of the biggest reasons that I became a criminal defense attorney.”

It's the intersection of mental illness and criminal responsibility and really how we as a society respond when those two collide. So it wants you to think about if someone has a seizure. They have a seizure disorder. They lose consciousness. They fall. They fall into their child and the child tragically dies. Most people would not call that murder. We'd recognize it to be a disease, not a conscious choice and that that is what played the role. The disease affects the brain instead of the body. Everything changes. Suddenly we become skeptical. We ask whether the illness is real. We question motives.

We wonder if it's an excuse. We wonder if it's made up. In the Clancy case, there are years of documented mental health treatment, extensive medical records and hospitalizations. Yet the prosecution's theory is that she is criminally responsible for intentionally and premeditatedly killing her children. Planning it out. That raises a hard question.

“How do we distinguish between intentional criminal conduct and conduct that's driven by severe mental illness?”

So here's the craziest part of American healthcare. This is what really gets me. The sick or your brain is the more we rely on you to explain your own medical history. And we saw it here. We saw it with Lindsay Clancy. People with schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, dementia, addiction, traumatic brain injuries, severe depression. They may not remember the medications they've taken. The diagnosis, the past hospitalizations, how they reacted to a medication.

They may not remember any of that. But the first thing that every new provider that sees them and there's a lot of new providers that will see them. Tell me what happened.

The people that are least capable of being their own historian are the ones that we're asking to do exactly that. We're basing treatment on.

And nobody's allowed to see it. The other pieces. Nobody's allowed to compare notes. The psychiatrist doesn't see the neurologist notes. The ER doesn't see the therapy records.

“The primary doctor doesn't know what happened during the psychiatric commission. No one is coordinating the information.”

Amazon knows what I bought five minutes ago. It knows what I bought five years ago. Netflix knows every movie I watch.

My bank tracks my spending and suggests coupons that I can use to get deals.

But my doctors often don't know what the doctor down the street diagnosed last month.

What medications I've tried, what side effects I've suffered, what's worked, what hasn't worked. And I see this in courtrooms every day. Time after time, I watch people cycle between jail, our emergency rooms, psychiatric facilities and back again. Every system has a piece of the story, but almost nobody in the system has the whole story.

“Our entire system is premised on preventing crime. That's why we have a criminal system. We are supposed to be preventing crime.”

We punish to curb the next person's behavior. That's the whole point in punishment. Police to stop crimes before they happen. And I think everyone would agree that if there was a way to save those three little instant babies, we should have found it. If there was a way for Lindsey Clancy and her family to not have to be where they are today, we should have found that too.

“So is prosecuting her the answer? Is prison gonna help? Does it bring the babies back? Does it stop the next mother from reaching a breaking point and doing the unthinkable?”

No, it doesn't. It punishes. It does nothing to prevent. So we really need to think about a solution so that there aren't three more innocent babies who are killed at the hands of their very sick and very ill mother. Thank you all, everyone, and thank you, my co-host Phil Holloway, and to our guest, Allison Mata, and thank you all, mainly for joining us. I hope you have a great week.