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next decade will be techno-optimists. The people who learn to leverage AI to make money and scale their time. Today, I'm partnering with Evasa Sanati to teach us exactly how to do this. She's the founder of Nome. It's an AI-powered news platform designed to help people understand
“what matters in real time without clickbait, doom scrolling, or 10 tabs open. And because she's”
a woman after my own heart inside Nome, she built a feature called finance mode, specifically to give you real-time updates on financial news you can use. And this is the exact kind of AI use case that will help you get ahead. Evan, I also get into building in the AI space, whether patents are still necessary and how to actually get one. What it's like being a woman in a very, very male dominated space and why vibe coding is probably the most empowering thing
you're going to do all year. Evasa Sanati, welcome to money rehab. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to have you because we have girl talked offline about news and this is like the kind of girl talked that I have. And I wanted to share it with the audience specifically about what you're doing with financial news. Thank you so much for doing that and we'll get to that in a minute. But is traditional news broken? You know that I've been in the space
for a hundred thousand years. What's wrong with it in your opinion? Well, first, I don't think
“it's the fact that people no longer are interested in the news. I think the way people received”
a news in the format as they receive it, they just no longer trusted. I think traditional news
Was very much created for limited information.
of the problem, which is we have infinite amount of information. And so it's really difficult for people to understand what it is that they're consuming and have that intelligence ability to
“contextualize information that is relevant to them. And I think that's the biggest problem today.”
We're just mabarted all the time. And what we see too just fed to us through our feeds or through Apple news or anything. Like we don't even know what source it is. And they all are on the same playing field. So you can't even discern. Yeah, it's really difficult. And I talk a lot about this where we see US covering Europe. And it's really not what's actually happening in Europe. I'm Lithuania. And in the way that, for example, this whole Russian aggression is happening
in Lithuania, United States really much covers it in a very different context. And so for someone that is looking for things that are relevant to them, it's really important for us to understand not just a language barrier, but also the cultural barrier. How things are actually different based on coverage. And so I think that's something that is very much impossible today to gather through the traditional news aspect. But you need it. Like when you're even managing
your own portfolio or if you're running a business, like we need to know what the inflation numbers are. We need to know data that's coming out unless you are digging through the BLS numbers
“directly, which most people don't do. What is the best way to find what you need in this”
crowded marketplace? Like the solution is not to cancel the news. We need it. Yeah. And I think
that's exactly the pain point that we try to solve is no mean is really not eliminating the information, but just creating an intelligence layer that allows us to really provide the information at the right place, at the right time, to the right individual within the context and their values. Because all of us quite honestly only care what's really happening in our own backyard. And if we are able to succeed in that, to deliver that, it would have any tool that allows
us to really contextualize the information from the entire world based on the topic of my interest, then that's something that was going to be successful in allowing people to make that informative decision. Okay. So you mentioned Naomi, you're the mastermind behind Naomi. You believed and I'm paraphrasing this. This is how I've seen you as your fan. You said that news basically needed a glow up could not agree more. So what were your early brainstormings around solutions for that? Oh gosh,
my brainstorming started before Naomi even existed at all. My background is interesting in that regard because I come from entertainment, but I also come from running political data analytics for a really long time. It really allowed me to understand the power of information firsthand because our soul job was to personalize and contextualize messaging to each individual to get the message across. But also, it showed me the power that could manipulate people with the messaging in in relation
to getting the right outcome. And so even though it was such an honor and just a phenomenal craziest time of my life, I at some point became really frustrated with the fact that only research teams like this would so much money behind them were able to make that informative decision
where someone like me, I could never make money because I just don't have these kind of tools
to understand the context of it all. And so I think I didn't know that Naomi is going to become Naomi. I just knew that I really wanted to solve a problem for myself and also for people about me that were just constantly very confused and also very convinced that they were very informed. And I knew that they weren't because the power of messaging and personalized messaging is unmagged. And so yeah, that's kind of where the idea came from before any of this started.
And then I just kind of thought, you know, as the idea was developing, we first started with a computational cloud, where how we're going to scale how we're going to develop all these products. We had no idea what the product was going to be like. We then did the market that looked at the new traditional news. And so this is really where we said, listen, this is what we need to do. We have a goal to make, create a tool that allows humanity to be more informed. We need to make
a real time intelligence tool that allows them to constantly help and making these decisions.
“And then we just stuck with news because that's the only thing that constantly flows.”
And you're doing it in such an amazing analytical way that's data focused and unbiased because a
Lot of companies, media companies, apps have tried to do the unbiased without...
And still, there's somebody behind that messaging that makes me feel like, like, what actually am I supposed to believe? You mentioned that you were in entertainment. And I love that you're posting more on LinkedIn now, too. You wrote this great piece that you wanted to underplay that. Can you explain why there's a quote that really matches this entire experience of mine, which is a jack of all trades as a master of none, but a master of none is better than a master of one.
That second part took me a really long time to come home, too, because I
firstly came from a country that was post-Soviet Uni, literally a year before I was born. And the entire nation really honored and rewarded perfection constantly. And so everything that I have done in my life was really valued based on how good I was at something, which required time. And I, when I got into tech, I got into tech really fast. I didn't have the traditional Silicon Valley Stanford background. I was times to immigrant immigrating to Canada, then United
States. I had absolutely no traditional background to talk about my data analytics background, because politics was very confidential and made me very invisible. And so I just thought that
if I could shrink myself into this one page to put myself on the box and raise all these chapters
and put myself in this one little one-liner where I'm doing this because I thought that people are just going to understand me better, but obviously through time, especially having my daughter, I've realized that this is not the example I want to set my diversity and my rage. Everything really allows me to be where I am today. And so, yeah, I just, it was definitely at 27-year mark. I was really learning as I went. I was afraid to tell my story because it was just
“so traditional. But I think everything has changed now, especially when you're running a startup”
and you realize that there's no way you could have been successful in any way, unless you had the ability to pivot, which is exactly what my entire background taught me. Is how do I pivot very quick? How do I not know the answer? How do I find the answer? That's where I realized I think a lot of other people feel this way and I need to just vocalize this because it's being the maximum capacity that you are is what's going to get you to be who you want to be. But also who is
like an expert, so to speak, in AI. It's all being written right now. Yeah, it's all happening now. Yeah, I think I really think the expert is going to be the AI and as AI continues to develop, we no longer have to be the linear expert of it all. The biggest thing we're going to bring as being human is the ability to adapt very quickly and know how to use these tools. We no longer have to be experts at anything anymore. AI is going to do that for us. It's how we're going to
“apply AI to come to that particular result. I think that's what's going to allow us to really”
excel in using these kind of tools. And it's a tool like anything else. Exactly. I can be used to build a house and to tear it down. So when you have the idea, you set Computational Cloud. That's
what you started with. So basically, that's a big brainstorm of ideas and how did you test those ideas?
We built the Computational Cloud before Chad GBT or any of these came out. We knew my background was sentiment analysis in the political data analytics. We were all used to gather a bunch of data to understand the sentiment analysis on what people thought. And that was done a very rough and manual way. Think of it as billions and billions of data points just trying to group them and understand the commonality between all of them or maybe none and just then do the targeting
ability of messaging. When we started thinking of how we're going to scale and the fact that our goal was to really help humanity to be more informed, we didn't know what the product was. And so we started with the fact that how do we create the base of the house that we're going to eventually build with the architect to ensure that it's strong enough to stay. So we keep on building
“on top of it. And so that's why we build a computational cloud with machine learning capabilities.”
So we can essentially build as much as we can and have that base kind of withstand all of our changes pivoting and adaptability on anything that we want no need to be in more. And that's what it was. It obviously still stands today under a holding company where we build Nome. And that's why
We were able to pivot so quickly with Nome when Chad GBT came out because we'...
We levered so many different large language models is because we already had that base. So we
“were just really just building on top really quickly and maximizing all these tools that we're just”
coming out and powering them into our system. How do you deal with all of the tools and advances coming in so quickly? I just imagine you like whack a mole style of a new updick comes in like how are you integrating that or how are you maybe vibe coding yourself because so much of it doesn't require an engineer. The word wife code is just so funny because I don't even think it existed until like this year, especially when lovable before lovable came out, which is such a
genius idea because now vibe coding obviously is not for hard coding. You're not you're not going to be able to build a product at least not today. But what you can do with that now is to really build a prototype that would have taken you maybe two, three months to do that in like 24 hours.
“Just very quickly throw that out in front of your customers that are willing to test the product”
or you're kind of the product category people that are able to really just understand what's the market fit here. It's going to stick. It's not going to stick and do that extremely quickly with that really providing and injecting too much capital into that. It's been transformational for us
because this entire industry is like a tsunami. It's going so fast and the reality is not everything
sticks. That really allowed us to move quickly and just throw things into the trash if they didn't work within 24 hours for us as two months. So it's been great. I trust you. I trust know me, but how does somebody who hasn't used the product differentiate between what you're going to get there versus just asking chat to be to your question? Yeah. I mean search engines in general retrieve information for you based on referencing the links and then large language models
really provide information based on the data that they've been trained on. We are analyzing the entire information ecosystem to provide you the information that is contextualized for you
specifically to your needs at the right place and at the right time. ChatGBT is a product within
itself. We use it as a tool as we use any other large language model to help us power our intelligence layer that is going to be providing your relevant information at the right time at the right place. ChatGBT is really a search engine, answer engine. We are really allowing you to understand the world better and that's mainly our goal. But you're not only the founder, you're also there was a commercial back in the day about this. I'm not only the founder of the hair club for men,
“but I'm also a customer. So you're also a user yourself. But how do you use it to consume?”
My consumption has really changed because I started off with firstly ensuring as a founder to ensure that we started off with verified results for the user. Now the fact that I know the way Naomi has been built on for a year and a half, I'm starting to use Naomi as a customer based on the things that really matter to me. For example, more so to verify the information for me, is it really true that this happened in Europe? Is it really true that the market is crashing?
Is it really true that people are afraid of the market today? Whatever that is, I'm asking very personalized questions that are relevant to me that day and I'm really looking at the way it solves the complexity for me as an individual versus as a CEO. And if I'm able to be satisfied as a customer and not just an asset CEO to provide you the best quality response, I am very much hopeful that others are going to use it the same way and be satisfied. So it's
switched from being a CEO and using the product more so and now I'm using it as a user and seeing if I'm satisfied with what I'm getting as an individual. I mean, I've heard you talk about this in a time that it almost was too early to resonate with me because you were like, I know that there are deep fakes and AI generated stuff that's not real and I was like, I don't know, deep fakes maybe has to do with porn and other stuff like doesn't have to do with the news. Then I thought of
you because I got really deep into the Epstein files for instance and I saw a bunch of social media posts that looked really real about it and I was like, I've been in news for more than 20 years. Is this real or is this not? And I could not tell and I asked the AI, I'm like, is this real is this
Not?
Yeah, look, there's a lot of Epstein files out there. And so firstly, you're getting a pinion from
someone that's maybe read a fraction of that and is now telling a story based on the findings that they have found because the entire social media is based on the people and how they report how they narrate the story that they want to tell according to their agenda, which is great because opinions are very important and they're important to how they shape our society. But when you're only listening to one story and then you kind of exit the social media, that's all you think about.
That's all you think that there is to that story. And so that intelligence layer is extremely important because what it does, it really just gathers the entire ecosystem, the entire landscape of information and then it really contextualizes this for you. So if you ask a question, is this really true? It's going to say, well, in this case it is, but actually in this case it isn't.
“And so you need to be very of the things that, you know, how, how you consume these,”
whatever Epstein files because in this particular situation, this particular person, there is no record of this being verified information whatsoever. So I think that intelligence we're not trying to eliminate information. I think that's really important to note too. It's how do we really just personalize it for our own use that makes sense for us to answer our own question versus what the rest of the world wants us to know. If it do people want that
or do they just want to hear what they want to hear from people who believe the same thing as them. Do they want to be in an echo chamber or do they want, not in bias news? Because I know you listen to your customer and if you found that everybody just wants to be in their own echo chamber and hear whether it's fake news, not fake news, you would probably pivot again. Yeah. Look, but we're not here to tell people that they should like cats if they like dogs.
We're more so trying to allow people to be more informed about the things that they care about. And yeah, everyone wants us to sense it belonging. Obviously, I want to know that I'm not the only crazy person that thinks about this idea of the way that I do,
“which is not something that is a problem. I think more so it's a problem if we believe in”
something that is factually false, especially Gen Z today. They're one of the most vocal generations. And so when you have a generation that is extremely vocal about things that they care
about, the most important thing that we can do as a generation is to provide them tools where they
can verify their information before they become really pumped up to talk about it or to stand up for whatever it is that they believe. But people want it to be verified. Yeah, I've seen that myself. I want information to be verified for me. I don't want to spend time believing at something that isn't true. And then be talking to you about something that ends up being, I don't know what I'm talking about. All of us like to feel intelligent and in control of our lives. And the only
way to really do that is to be informed. And so that's where the verified information context comes in. And the medium matters, too. So you guys have a partnership with 11 labs, the level of 11 labs. How did you feel like the consumption changed from text, video, audio, the medium that people are
“consuming more? Yeah, I think as AI continues to develop, everything is going to be moving towards”
voice. You're going to want to be sitting here with someone with me and you're going to want to have a little assistant in your ear, navigating you through a conversation through your life. And I think 11 labs is one of the partnerships that we're really proud of because firstly,
they are amazing at what they do. They really have that ability to translate things so quickly and so
effortlessly were the language barrier just completely disappears. At this point, we were kind of calling it injection of news as a local. You're really just consuming news as a local, even though you're just reading news from China or Japan or India. It just feels like you're really much just consuming something that you've consumed for your entire life. Except now, it's just much more broader spectrum. And 11 labs makes that possible in the language thing as crazy. We've been
working on sort of a stealth AI project with 11 labs, too. And to hear my voice, we've trained hours and hours on it in Japanese or whatever is wild. And that's a huge game changer in how you're consuming news and information. It's a huge change for us as AI news agent because we are trying to humanize this experience so much for the consumer where they feel like they're actually talking to the best friend that knows everything about the world. And that should be delivered to them,
not just by speaking their language but their accent and their voice that they're trying to
Feel the connection to.
literally talking to Mark. As my mother says, I talk to Mark and I'm like who's Mark? She's like
Mark is your AI news agent who you know is the voice that I speak to every single day. And so that's
“what we want. We want that to be very much personalized experience. And I think 11 labs has really”
done a great deal for us to be able to do that for a product. And your mom is not weirded out by listening to an AI. I think my dad is more freaked out that she constantly refers to Mark. Like Mark versus I'm talking to Naomi. I think there's a few times where she has an actually explained herself to my dad and my dad call me. You guys do you know how this Mark
is? I'm like what are you talking about? You guys like Mark is our AI news agent.
My mom talks to you and he goes, why did she call him Mark? I'm like because we named him Mark. And so I think that it's just really tells a story that people don't want to feel like they're talking to an agent. They want to talk to someone that feels like a human being that understands them.
“Yeah, I think it's so common now that we're just going to have to get used to it. And I think that”
there's there's so much value there. Like for me, I have listened to the clone of my voice and could not tell the difference. Yeah, at all. And it allows me to focus on the things that make me uniquely human and then I can bring to the table while still scaling myself at my reach. And so I think when we look at what AI can do for us, how do you balance that? The human element and the opportunity for scale and reach to other languages? Well, I think overall AI should be
leveraged as a tool. And the way that we really want to succeed in is where information feels like empowerment versus confusion, where we could or they could use our tool to empower their lives and shape their lives, maybe again personally or professionally, where they're able to make that decision at the right time at the right place. Understand that this is a tool that is going to empower them
“as a human being to be confident in their decision making. This is where I think AI is going to be”
revolutionary regardless of what, you know, in which sectors it's being created. You guys launched
finance mode. Yay, thank you so much. So thankful that you made this whole product just for me. That's so kind. What a good friend. How does somebody use that now in the landscape of the same thing? Like so much finance news, so much fake news out there. The way that we really want to position finance mode for a customer is for it to be more so of this intelligence layer for markets, where we help you to understand what moves markets. And so we are working with all of these partners
and creating this real-time dashboard specifically for individuals like you, but have the ability to then go on our dashboard and understand what signal versus noise. And so of course we leverage live earnings calls. We leverage all different company KPIs. We leverage transcripts. We're able to really just have this entire dashboard where you're able to ask a question, where you're able to position yourself as someone in a specific position and then ask an agent that is able
to then give you not just their response but context based on the things that you are looking into. Thank you. Again, I want to be the voice. Can I talk to your model? Just be like, well, I'm overmarked. Now Nicole is talking to me. I feel like your dad might like that a little bit better. I probably would love that. Yeah. And I really love what you guys did with the adaptive fear and greed index specifically because look, I am so happy that there are more
finance creators out in the world. It's just not regulated and people can go on and have a microphone and say just about anything. But it's not connected to earnings calls, to company reports, to KPIs. And so I really worry about that. Like, I'm equal parts excited by the proliferation of more finance content and nervous about it. Nome's version really focuses on the real-time information flows, which is constantly changing that particular sentiment. We also go beyond that, too.
We are injecting the sentiment of how people feel about the market. Is it versus what's happening, versus how people feel? And we're injecting that as part of the formula into the fear and greed index. So you can actually see an overall picture that is constantly changing and adapting together with
The market and humanity intertwined together.
because there are so many indexes. There's so many things to track. Like, sure, you can track the mix that's kind of fear, but it's not a vibe. And for the last couple of years, we've talked a lot about the fact that data is really strong, but there's a vibe session happening. Like, people are upset still. Doesn't matter what the data is showing. If people are scared, if people are fearful, that some things are going to crash, regardless of what the numbers show, they're going to pull
them running out of the market. And that's something you need to know. Exactly. I mean, you know,
“what's actually happening is not necessarily how you need to react in response. And I think the”
fact that going back to the belonging, knowing that you're not the only one that feels this way, knowing that the market overall actually people feel a certain way about the market is telling you a lot of how you should be acting and what you should be doing. Next, based on what is happening, versus how people are looking to react at that particular moment in time. How do I use it? The fear and fear and greed index mode right now is even though it's not static from the back end,
it's fairly static for you just for you to understand where the market stands at that point in time. So it's constantly adapting. So it's real time and every single time that you're checking even five seconds that could drastically change depending on what's happening in the world. And you're able to really maybe be being biased and saying that you can really depend on that because again, we're not really focusing on the thick signals. We're focusing an overall image
of how people actually feel of what's happening in the world today. So the fear and index mode is constantly adapting based on what's happening. And so at this time, it's not an interactive feature, but eventually based on what we're working on right now will be. Tell me, which is a picture in us, girls. No, I'm really excited about this. Well, how would you ideally want finance mode to work and help our listeners on their journey to financial literacy
at all stages and all levels of the game? I am someone who is not so much capable in making
me tremendously important financial decisions. I have never really understood
“when and how and to what I should be investing my money in. And I think what I really want to”
accomplish with this particular feature and mode is not just build it for the professionals, which is what this dashboard really is. You really need to know what you're looking at. And the questions that you are asking, you really need to know those questions in advance. But I really also want to build it for people that are going to be able to actually take this dashboard that is going to be specifically personalized to them and adapt it to their level of
understanding. So it could help them make that more personalized, important financial decision based on where they their capacity and understanding is. Fine. You can build it for other people too. But I know where it was when you were thinking of this. One of the first times
we spoke you were also like, just casually, I have a patent for this. Okay, amazing. First of all,
second of all, tell me about what that process is even like. And in this world of creation being so
“accessible, even just sort of in the vibe coding sense, how important is the patent?”
It's important because that's your mode, especially when you're building something unique. You want to make sure that that's not going to be repeatedly done in the next six months, especially when you're injecting capital into something that is evidently working. The reality is people tend to copy things and yes, it might be a nice compliment because people tend to copy things that actually work, but it's a complete, complete tragedy for investors
and for you that have been focusing on building something for a long time. Now, it's very also important to understand what they're very expensive and they're extremely expensive. They're expensive. I mean, you definitely have to hire a law firm that understands how to file patents, that understand how to position your invention in a white way that allows the patent office to understand what it is that you're actually trying to build here. You're trying to protect here.
Is it even patentable? Is another thing, and I think the right attorneys are going to be extremely helpful for you to position your invention in the way where it's very much simplified on the piece
of paper. Now, it's, we ourselves, we have patent, one of the most important core intelligence
over platform, which is the sentiment analysis ability that allows us to have this very unique intelligence layer that understands that is a bridge between humanity and information. That's something that we needed to patent and something that was very much patentable because it was the formula that we have put together into this particular strategy that allows us to function the
Way that we do, kind of like our secret sauce.
because if anyone else does that, then of course, that's where the patents kick in. But it's not
important to patent your entire product. One is nearly impossible, and two, it's just completely useless, because things are constantly evolving, technologies constantly changing by the time that you get a patent, which, if you do, takes you up to at least two years, you know, it's going to be very much useless, and now you spend all this money, patting something that no longer you even needed. So, patting 30% of your core intelligence layer or whatever it is that you
are building your formula is what's very much recommended. After this, I have to bring out my husband not that he's like hiding. But he has, my husband also has two, he's going to tell me if I don't say this correctly, two sentiment analysis patents. Do you tell me you guys need to need to turn it out? It's a small nerdy, nerdy class, but very specific nerdy club about this. Yeah, so don't go on up work and file a patent with some guy who says they need to do it.
“Like, you have to do it. Yeah. And that's tens of thousands of dollars, tens of thousands of”
dollars, depending how complex your invention is. And most importantly, all the details and the regulations and whatever it is that needs to go into these hundreds of pages of a patent are very important factor of that being either a successor or failure. Obviously, once it's rejected,
you can obviously file, but it's always very hard to do that, especially if you don't have
the right team. And the right team is very expensive because unfortunately, no matter how many startups are trying to do the patent capability right now, I think they're just creating much more work for lawyers to begin with when it comes to that. What has it been like, financing this company? Yeah. So until this day, we've had only one investor who has better me when no one he, nobody else did. And he's been very large investor. He's invested over 30 plus a million dollars.
She says one investor, just one investor, 30 million dollars. Yeah, single investor. You know that I think of it, credible. If I, if I were him, I probably would have never done it because, oh, stop. It's interesting because I didn't have the background at all. And I think as an investor, when you look at things, you're trying to really minimize your risk, you are betting on people. And I know that he very much better me. But at that time, I was so green. I knew nothing. All I knew is that I'm going
I want to win. And I want to solve this pain point. How am I going to solve it? I have no idea,
“give me your money. That's how it was. But he really better me as a human being. And I will never”
forget that because it really allowed me to make a lot of mistakes throughout this process and learn so quickly on my feet because I also had this massive responsibility that I needed. I had somebody that bet everything on me. And I had no other choice but to deliver. And that really kept me up at night and still does because we're not done. We're no we're near done. We're not past stealth mode. We are still very much a startup. We guess we're going into series A and we're raising series A now. But you know,
nothing is one. Yeah, besides the fact that we've made tremendous progress into solving this
problem when we will continue doing so until we can't. Yeah, I mean, taking 30 million dollars
would definitely keep me up at night to make all the sense of the world. No one person. I mean, that's so unique. I am assuming that, you know, him having that much money. He did his due diligence. And he made a very educated back. So thank you for your self-deprecation. But I'm sure there's a real reason that he put that much in. Do you think the future doesn't include my
“former employers on the models of CNN, CNBC Bloomberg? Look, I think this agent specifically”
and in overall news agents, they're not going to eliminate journalism. I very much believe that these agents will help people consume even more information. I stand by it because right now, we have so much information, so many podcasts, so many journalists. It's so difficult to even find the people that I think we would be dying to listen to because we don't even know the exist. And if these agents are able to bring the right people to our platter to listen to, I think
the consumption is going to rise tremendously with and do the opposite of elimination. I think we're going to be very much much more engaged into journalism that we've ever been done before because it's going to be at the peak of it. I just think even as a media business owner,
Like, is there more consumption that people can do?
And I think that's exactly what agents are here to solve is to know who you are and know what
matters to you, when it matters to you and these are the people, podcasts, contents that, you know, are relevant to you right now to make that decision, whatever it is that you're making.
“Normal people don't, don't start business. Normal people do not start businesses. I think,”
you know, if people actually know how hard it is to start up, I think nobody would do it. It's also birth. There would be no humans. It's really, really. No birth is like the least of my worries that I've just started up. Yeah. There's no epidural for the startup. No, there isn't. And you know what? I, like, at some point I'm going to, like, I would love to cover, like,
one day where I just don't want to scare people. I was on a conference call when I was giving
birth. And nobody knew how to correct this job. No, no one knew I was pregnant because it was COVID and we were firstly, every mode startup and people just thought I was getting fat. I kidging up. People were like calling my chief technology office and it's okay. Like she's gaining so much weight because the camera, which is here. Yeah. And my chief technology officer was the only
“one that knew because he had to know. And he's like, no, she's just, I think she's just stressed.”
Because I prohibited him for telling anyone that I was pregnant because I was so afraid that the top engineers that we stole from the top companies are going to just be like, oh man, she's a woman and she's pregnant and she's running a startup and she's got no background. Like this is a suicide mission. Like we quit. Yeah. And so I went into labor. I was induced. I had preclampsia. And I just, my nurse was like, what is she doing? I'm like, I have a conference call.
And my chief technology officer is like, what's happening? Why? Where are you? I'm like, I'm giving birth. I'm fucking giving birth. Are you serious? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm so if it's interesting because I don't know, I'm not really proud of that either. Like I want to have more children. And I just don't want to have this kind of story ever again. I'm sure it's variance firing for an investor who's like, for investors who would invest money to me and say like, like,
she's able to walk through fire. But it's just not the life experience I want to encounter again. But yeah, no, I, yeah, it was given for easy to one baby and then also to another. And the fact that you had to do that still speaks to the truth of the culture that we're in as women who have run businesses raised money, led teams because there still is that perception. Yeah. You're just very honest. Well, nobody can tell me something is really hard because I swear to God, giving
birth at the same time, that's like running a startup and then also just pushing the baby out in three hours and going back to work literally in 48 hours was the most insane thing I have ever done. And at that point, I was really proud of that because I'm like, you know what, nobody can tell me,
“I can't do something ever again. And I think that was also one of those like breaking points where I'm”
just like, I'm just done pretending that I'm this one little linear thing because I just pushed a baby out. And I, I just stood up like nothing happened the next day and just ended up working. And so for me, I feel like that was more so like I've proved that to myself more so than anybody because quite frankly, I don't even think people are going to put care that I came back to work
48 hours later or not. It was just something that I wanted to do because I was always told that
you can't have a baby and have a startup. But then reality is that when you're at the peak of your career, you're also in your peak fertile year. Yeah. And so you can, some really a choice unless you don't want to have children. So it was just one of those things I had to prove to myself, I think, more so than anybody. I don't think anyone cared, but not again. But not again. No, I, I really want to remember my pregnancy this time because I really just don't remember.
Maybe it's also her monol, I don't remember a single thing. But there's that. I also remember the experience of just being pregnant of what it's like to experience that part of nature, which I don't because I work through it all. So what did you, the you just would just had a baby, you were just like meet my child. But yeah, you know, I wasn't having pushed it out 30 minutes. I was induced. So I was in like,
and I was in, I was in, I was in labor, but not actively. Where my actively, where it was maybe just like two hours. And I really just, when it was time to push my opposition, just barely caught the baby. And it's just like, what just happened? What happened?
So yeah, I just said, okay, I'm done.
Oh my god. Well, I thought, I mean, I thought being on the phone with my accountant literally
while I was having contractions, which I wasn't sure because your first baby, you're just like,
“is this it? You're just like, asking chat to be like, am I going to be real, like, be broke?”
Can't be, you like chat to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was on the, because it was for the end of the year. So I needed stuff from my accountant. And I'm like, okay, hold on. Let me time the thing. And he's like, are you sure you're still going to have this call? I was like, yes, it's really important we have to get the wires out before the holidays. Like, Christmas is coming, banks are closed. And then, but yours is next level. And so your team, did you, did you come back?
And be like, surprise. My chief took care of the baby. The sir, we used to use the use of black now, but back then we used signal. And my chief technology officer goes, can I please now tell the
team you had a baby? And it was very obvious. Something was going on. I just think first, like,
as my entire team, at that point, was made out of men that they just didn't really put that together because why would they? And so my chief technology officer just said, can I just please just let them
“know now that you know, you're okay? Because I think it's becoming like a health concern. And so I'm like,”
yes, so he goes, just so everyone knows RCO just had a baby. And then everyone just was like, what she was, because I didn't post anything. Like, I was just so quiet because I was just so afraid of people kind of thinking that I can do both. And I really wanted to prove that to them, but most importantly, prove that to myself because nobody can tell me that again. So I'm basically came out of his stronger. Stir. So what does that say about women in business? And now two years
later that you feel differently? Gosh, she's just like this. Like everything just changes. And I think
when you have a baby, you just kind of go like, this is the most important thing that I'm holding
in my hands. And I'm going to do everything on my capacity not to let this little human down. And you just start working even harder that you never thought you can work. You just kind of become this like super mom, super, super human. Because you just don't have the ability to be like, you know what I just gave birth. I'm kind of just going to relax now for six months. And I'm going to come back to that. It's it's not that you kind of give birth. And you're like,
okay, now I have to give birth to this human and now I have to keep them and her life. So now more than ever I have to do everything in my power to show what humanity's capable of to my
“little human that is going to be watching my every step. And so I think that's I think that's something”
that most women feel. But you're vocalizing it. So thank you for that. There was actually an article that I wrote around COVID that more women got promoted because you couldn't see the pregnancy. Yeah. And it didn't have an impact on yeah, raises or promotions the way it truly still does if we're being honest. We just have to prove it over and over again with good actors that you can do both. But it's still very hard. And I just now know that I can do it. That's all I
care about. And I think about all the time our daughters are very close to an age. Yeah. One and two, what the world is going to be like when she starts driving, is she ever going to need to know how to drive? Is she going to go to college? How do you think about our little, our many knees and how they're going to consume news and information? I think equipping them with the right tools is going to be really our job and to also be responsible for the things that we're building
now to be genuinely good for humanity. That's extremely important because all of us, not all of us, but a lot of these companies are just going after hype. And they're building things very, I would say with no responsibility whatsoever because we're trying they're trying to reach X amount of revenue and X amount of time and they're being incredibly responsible of how they're building things anything. That's going to be our responsibility as a generation to set that tone
for the next generation that comes. The world is going to be constantly evolving. Our parents do not prepare us where to walk. They showed us how to walk and it's really our job to teach our children to be responsible in their actions. But I think as AI develops, I truly believe that if we equip them with the right tools or it could help them to make those decisions, it could help them to navigate the world of AI, that's going to be very important. Same way as parents taught us how to
Drive, hopefully, and then we kind of choose our own car model and year and w...
going to drive at the end of it. And destination, and destination, most importantly, destination.
“Because you say humanity in a way that sounds really hopeful, but I think there's a flipside to that.”
Are you scared? Scared is a wrong word. I'm not scared. I am just maybe cautious of the things that, you know, are coming out and how effective they're going to be in manipulative if we're looking at the dark side. I think to everything good, there's the bad side. You can solve the problem of communication without injecting the over communication of the misinformation or people that are ending up communicating with you, same thing as Facebook,
with Facebook. They solved the massive problem where I was able to connect with my school or my kindergarten kids friends. But they've also created naturally and unwanningly the dark side. And I think that's inevitable. I think it's how we solve that as we move forward with AI so all that it's going to matter. We're not going to solve all problems at the same time. We're just going to have to navigate the way we see fit. Are you meeting a lot of female founders in the
“AI world as you go on to build the company? Sadly, no. But I think that's going to change one”
because I think I'll find myself a bit more active in Silicon Valley and to I think AI is going to really allow us to close that time capsule gap that is and was very much needed to build something spectacular ten years ago where it was very much dominated industry because we needed to do this manually. Now we have all of these tools that really, if you find the pain point in humanity, if you find a problem in the solution, you're able to leverage all of these tools to build
this particular thing. And I think a lot of these these now are betting on the next billion dollar
company that is going to be really run by one person with many different agents because more so than ever before, it's actually possible. And I think I'm very hopeful that women are going to come out and play. I, yes, amen to that. I have a couple of girlfriends who are also in the space and they're just like, yeah, definitely the only lady at the conference, the only woman in
“the room. If this turns out the way you envision, as you were saying, if I'm successful, I think”
when you're successful, I think you already are. What do you think changes for people and how they consume news and information in this crazy world where I think to myself every day like what even is truth? I would really hope that our tool allows them to allow people to find their own truth and what they care about. And I think just going back to the fact that I would really wish to accomplish that tools like Naomi will provide confidence in information and consuming information
rather than just confusion and overwhelmness of the things that you thought you cared about. And now you're just ultimately just super confused and you don't know where to go. Confidence forces confusion. We really want to solve that problem in how people consume information today. And what do you want our listeners to understand about what they're walking into in the future of AI? Going back to the traditional news where information is
infinite at this point, I think the power will belong to those that don't have access to
information but have the tools to contextualize it because that's going to be the most important thing
and I think that if AI is able to be a tool for that, I think that's going to be transformative for everybody on the most personalized level that you could ever have had it before. And what do you see as the future of the traditional news landscape now? I think we're beyond feeds. I think at this point people no longer want to read articles. They want answers. People don't want to know what's happening about inflation. They want to know how inflation is going to affect them
personally. And I think that personalization capabilities, how do we have someone or something that we can trust to really provide information that matters to us most at the right time and at the right place? And I think that's where the news format is very much changing. It's also going to
Change beyond the answer engines as well.
effects now. That's the new paradigm of that. We're going to be able to really understand the
model of your life based on the decisions that you make before you make them. Or you can actually see your future based on the decisions that you're willing to make. Wait. Things are going to
“be in your life and I think that's the simulation. It's going to be the new paradigm.”
So it's the simulation of my own psychic, my fourth another. I guess you can put it that way.
But if you're trying to model out your world based on the decisions that you're making right now, like an architect, think of it. You've received the blue prints before you built something. If you just ended up building something which is what we're doing right now with making decisions,
“based on the best tools that we have, we're going to make mistakes. If we have a tool,”
like a blueprint that is going to be able to actually model out the world for us, based on the decisions that we're willing to make, most likely we're going to make the changes before we actually make that decision. That's crazy. But also makes a lot of sense because as a business, I look at my data and I model that out into the future. So we're the best of your ability. To the best of my ability, there could be black Swan events or stuff happening in the world
and that all changes. But I can model it out and with assumptions rooted in data and truth. So you can do the same thing for yourself and your own business. Yeah.
Except now you have this like most powerful AI tool that is able to foresee much further,
then you would be able to, if you were just depending on yourself to make that decision. Okay, I'm scared. But excited. As you know, we end all over episodes by asking all of our guests for a tip that listeners can take straight to the bank. If I could say one thing, it would be, don't make any financial decisions without having the full context of it. Simply because I very much believe in this that it's not the smartest people that become wealthy.
“It's the ones that are the most informed that become wealthy. And I think having the context”
before you do anything financially is extremely important.
