Episode Revisit- The Tragic Case of Molly Bish & Morbid Chats with Heather Bish

- And I'm Elena. - And this is morbid. - This is morbid. (gentle piano music)

“- I thought like the old times when I would say it.”

- Yeah, I did. - Yeah, I don't know what it was. - Just a little more simplistic than I usually did. - Yeah, it's just something about today. - Yeah.

- Well, it's nighttime and we don't usually record it night. - We don't. It's something spooky, something nostalgic about it. - Yeah. - It's like the first time that we recorded.

- And you know what, speaking of nostalgia? - What? - I just had to say, in case I just wanted to let everybody know that there was like, if there's a few episodes in our back had a lot that I'm like,

you know, we always talk about how we were under water.

- Our sound quality was terrible. - You all know, you all loved it. I'm not gonna don't worry because people, I remember I mentioned it once and people were like, don't like take out any of the old episodes

or like redo them because they like show your growth. - Yeah. - Which is awesome. Like I love that lot that people said that. That's really cool.

And I'm not. I'm not gonna like remove all these episodes or anything. But we are gonna be like trying to remaster a few of them and make them sound a little better. Just so new people who come to the podcast aren't hearing

that. - Just their first gateway. - 'Cause not to stay. - Yeah, not everybody is asked for giving. - You know, like so, we just wanna like try to make it better.

And there's a couple that like, I was listening to them and not only is the sound quality bad, but like I was like, you know, I feel like I've read more about that case now and like I didn't include these details that I wish I did.

- Yeah. - You know what I mean?

And it's just like, it's, I just wanna do it better.

So if you see things getting moved around in our back catalog or like, you know, updated at all,

“don't be like, oh my god, where did that episode go?”

It's coming back. - Yeah. - It's just, we're gonna be like, it's being tweaked. - Yeah. We're gonna be tweaking some episodes here and there

and we'll let you know. - 'Cause guess what? You didn't need to know about my vanilla child salon. - At the salon. - You did, I almost just said the exact same word.

- Yeah, like there's a few episodes where I was listening back to them and I was like, yeah, we went on like, too far of a tangent. Sometimes, I think it's just like for our own like, it just doesn't represent what we wanted to represent

all the time. So I just wanna let you guys know just in case you were like, where did that episode go or why is that episode suddenly slightly different? - Excuse me, ma'am.

- But don't worry, when we update episodes or remaster them, we're gonna let you know. So on whatever episode I do at the next week, I'll be like, hey, by the way, guys, go check out that episode 'cause we rear did it.

- Yeah. So you won't be in the dark, you'll know. - Love that. - But I just wanna let you know. - So you know, we're all in this together.

- We all wanna do it. - I know what's going on behind the scenes. - Well, it's trying to make it a little more palatable for everybody in the back catalog. - Yeah.

- Well, I'm because we're all in this together. Let's talk about the fact that some of you are like, why the fuck did you refund my show? - Why did you just give me money? - What's happening?

So basically what we're doing right now

is almost every single venue and show that we had we're still going to do them. - But right now, we are refunding you because we have no idea when it's gonna be acceptable to gather in large crowds.

- Yeah, in these places, don't wanna hold your money hostage

“while we try to figure out, no, what dates are happening?”

You know, like when it's gonna happen? - Yeah, and you know what, maybe we'll do different venues in those same places. - Yeah. - But I'm like, oh, maybe like a fun cemetery.

- Yeah, we're gonna make it a little like, or like a dark creative about it. - So if we were coming to your city, we had tickets, please don't worry. We're not like, we're not coming, like sorry.

- I thought that would have been fun, bye. - No, we're going to. We just, we don't wanna, we don't want those venues hanging out into your money while we try to figure out what dates

this is gonna happen to 'cause that's not really fair. - And also, like Ash said, we're trying to like change up the venue a little in the same cities. - We want it to be a little more of like an experience. - Yes.

- Yes. - We have ideas, we've had a lot of time with COVID to like really talk about it and like really conceptualize some fun things. - The amount of Pinterest boards that I have.

- Yeah. - And then the only one that you're not going to, you're not gonna get refunded. - No. - The only one where you're not gonna see refund is Boston

because we still plan to do that show. - Yes. - The Wilbur is happening. - Not on that date most likely. - Yes.

- Not this month. - In fact, when I say most likely I mean at all. - Absolutely not. - Yeah, that's gonna be rescheduled. - So that will be rescheduled.

So just hang onto that because we will update you as soon as we know. The Wilbur's just like a little up in the air right now. When this can all happen. - And we don't want like 1200 of you to like gather and have to be the reason.

- That's our thing. It's just, I don't, we really don't wanna like encourage people together too soon. - No, it seems a little hypocritical. - We're getting to a place of like,

we're almost there. - We're getting to a place of vaccine and a place of herd immunity. - Yeah. - And we wanna just let that ride out for a little while

- Yes.

- Everybody can feel comfortable.

- So that I don't have to hear a single one of you sneezed during my fucking set. - That's it. - That's all it is. - Is that Ash doesn't want to hear a sneeze

or a cough during it? - No, no, totally kidding. - It's because we care about you and you know, we don't want to get ourselves and we don't care much about your babies.

- We don't want anybody getting sick. So, and we don't want to encourage it. - Not for it, it's okay. So, we can't wait, like trust me. - Oh, I am craving it.

- Can't wait, but again, we just wanna be responsible. We wanna be fair to everybody. So, if you see those refunds coming in, that's what that is. - That's what that is.

- And look out 'cause we'll let you know as soon as we're coming back. - Oh my God, they're just scared. - They should not wait. So, it's on like, we have these little sound things

so that we're not echoey and it's in front of me. And all of a sudden, I just see this creepy crawly

“going up the side and I'm like, what the fuck is that?”

- And it's a ladybug. - It's just a ladybug. - Yeah, it's just a lovely little ladybug. - Hi, girl. - Hi, girl.

- So, I think that was all the business, right? - I think so, yeah. - Yeah. - And like, even if there's more like too much time by. - Yeah.

- So, let's get into it. I had mentioned last week that, you know, we were gonna do Venus extravaganza. We're quite now because not the right time. And then, so what I did was I went back on the Patreon

'cause it was the Venus extravaganza was a Patreon pick and I still wanted the Patreon to feel like they got their full spix, for sure. So, I went on the original post where everybody was like picking their things and I was like,

what cases were like super, super requested? And the two that were the most requested were the Molly-Bish story and Dominique Dunn. So, what I'm gonna do is the popular vote, I hate to even say that was Molly-Bish.

And so, I'm gonna do that today. And then, next week, I'm gonna do the Dominique Dunn story. - Woo! - So, without further ado, Molly and Bish was born on August 2nd, 1983.

Her parents are John Sr. and Maggie-Bish. - A durable name. - And Maggie is Maggie with an eye. - Oh, for fun. - Fulny was Magdalene, I believe.

- Oh, I love her Magdalene. - Either a Maggi for most of this. So, yeah, she had two older siblings, Heather and John Jr.

“And the family was originally from Detroit.”

But Maggie and John decided that it just wasn't the best place for them to raise their young kids. And actually, something that made a huge impact on their decision to move was the abduction of a young girl who lived close by.

- Wow. - Yeah. - Wow. So, they moved to a quiet Massachusetts town called Warren. - Have you ever been there?

- Ever heard of it? - Yeah, I have been to Warren. - It is literally like, it's like a different world. - It's like Oklahoma. - Yeah.

- It's so quaint. - That's very quaint. - It's like beautiful. - Yeah. - So, John Sr. actually worked as a police officer.

And Maggie was able to stay at home with the kids until her youngest Molly started kindergarten. And Maggie said that there were two sides to Molly. She could be like really shy or she could be super funny. And she compared her humor to Lucy for my love Lucy.

- Oh, I love that. - She was like that was Molly's kind of fun. - She's Lucy a ball. That's a great icon to be compared to humor was. - Yeah, huge compliment.

- Good for her. It's not like she must have been hilarious. - Yeah, hot shit. - Now Molly was the kind of girls who include everybody.

Her mom said that she never wanted anyone left out

and that people were just naturally drawn to Molly. She had one of those like faces, personalities, energies that people wanted to be around her. - She did have one of those faces. - She never told me see a picture of her.

You're like, oh. - She's like drop dead, like she's beautiful. - And you just want to know where. - Yeah, she just like, you know how like you can tell somebody's a nice person.

- Yeah, like there's no way your means. - Yeah, just radiates. - Yeah, I don't have that face. - So Molly was not only a kind funny kid. She was also a talented athlete.

She played softball, soccer, basketball, damn. - And on top of all of that, she was also an owner student. - Wow. - And she was an owner student that hoped

to someday work with children. That was like what she wanted to do. - So she was outgoing. She was popular among her friends in high school. She had a boyfriend that she had recently gone to prom with

and this was summer now and everybody was going to be heading into their senior year that fall. So in the meantime, that summer, Molly wanted to work as a lifeguard at a nearby pond. And her brother John had actually worked as a lifeguard

at Comments Pond, too. And he was the one who got her set up for working. - Yeah.

“- I think he had worked there for like the three years”

before she started working with her. - Oh wow. - So it was almost like not like a family gig, but like her brother was like that's down his job. - Yeah.

- So he showed her how to set up for the day. He laughed remembering like teaching her how to look for snakes, which I thought was adorable. - And he showed her how to hang in adorable. - No, no, it hates snakes.

He showed her just like the ins and outs of the job. So Molly had been working for a week and she was enjoying it. And then on the morning of June 27th, 2000, she got bad news.

Her mother, she was like getting ready for work and her mother had to tell her that one of her friends that she played soccer with was actually

in the hospital in critical condition.

And she had been hit by a car while she was riding her bike. - Oh.

So Molly was obviously super upset but it was too late to call into work. And there were gonna be swim lessons that day and she didn't want to miss them. She was like excited about them.

So she made like a super responsible decision to go in for her shift. - Wow. - Which at 16 years old, I feel like that was the really mature decision.

- She really was. - I think that says a lot about her. - Yeah, it would have been much easier to make the other decision. - For sure.

So Maggie drove Molly to the police station to pick up the two-way radio that the life cards would use. They would like use it to contact the police if there was an emergency.

And they also stopped to grab a couple of water bottles. When they got to the pond, Molly told her mom she loved her and ran up to her posts just at up for the day. So by 10 a.m., the swimmers who Molly was like looking forward to helping and looking after them,

they arrived at the pond. But there was no life card on duty. - Hmm. - Yeah. - So the parents of the swimmers were like,

"That's weird." And one of the moms took the post herself for the time being 'cause somebody had to do it. - Yeah. - And she saw that there were flip flops

in the sand by the post and that the two-way radio was there. A first aid kit was there and there was a backpack. And actually the first aid kit was open. - So it's very clear that there was a life card there on point.

- Yeah, it's very clear that Molly was there. - Yeah. - And had set up for the day. Like I said, it seemed like somebody had been there to set up and then just banished.

I hate this case. - This case, I'm already just like, "I know I'm literally wrapped in a blanket right now "and I have chills." So Molly's boss was informed

that she was nowhere to be found. So he contacted the police when she didn't show up. Which is like, okay, I'm like, why don't you also call her parents, but-- - Well, yeah, I didn't even think about it.

- Yeah, so the police immediately assumed that Molly had ran off with friends, even though there was nothing about her character that like could have aided in that abrupt decision. - That she was suddenly just abandoned her job

and run out with friends. - She's been working for a week.

She'd never done that before.

- Yeah. - She just, it didn't come off like she was like, I mean, she's 16, I guess. I don't know if that's just like-- - That's literally in my book.

- Of course, she's very responsible and she seems like a more responsible 16-year-old. - But they don't know her. - She's still a 16-year-old, so they're probably just like-- - And that's how they looked at it.

- Literally, I wrote like the stereotype of 16-year-old girls. They were like, she ran off, they knew, I think they knew that her friend had been the hospital.

“They're like, maybe that's what happened.”

- Yeah, I don't know. - But that wasn't Molly, she wouldn't do that. - No. - So when Molly still hadn't turned up by one o'clock, one o'clock PM at this point,

the police contacted her parents to let them know what was going on. So it's been three hours since Maggie's dropped her daughter off and she has no idea that they can't find her. - Two minutes after, she left something happened.

- And it happened so quick.

- Yeah, because the first swimmer's arrived

like a little bit after 10, like a few minutes after 10. - Yeah, that's the part that really gets me about this. - Somebody how quickly this happened. - Somebody had, in my opinion,

somebody had been watching her for a little while. - No, the routine. - You knew the routine, knew what time she got there and we'll see later on that there's a point where they could have been hiding

and like the Maggie wouldn't have seen them and knew that. - Yeah, Molly. - Absolutely. - So we'll get into it.

- Yeah, so they contact her parents to let them know what's going on. But they still believe that she would turn up and had just gone off with her friends and Maggie and all of her family are like, no.

So Maggie called Molly's older sister Heather.

“Now Maggie's the mom, just, I think that I'm getting”

a little confusing. - Yeah, Maggie calls Molly's older sister Heather to let her know what's going on. And Heather promptly heads over to help her mom search for Molly.

They knew something wasn't right about this entire situation and they were like, if nobody else is gonna investigate then like, fuck it, we will. - Yeah, of course. So they started contacting Molly's friends.

They went to her boyfriend's house. They checked to see if she had visited that friend in the hospital. No, no, no, she wasn't anywhere that they looked. Nobody had heard from her.

Nobody said like, they heard that she was gonna go here or there anywhere. - Yeah, like this wasn't a case of she just checked out. - Now the police proposed that maybe she had drowned, which they were like, her family was like, I know.

Like first of all, it's a pond. - So like, yeah, and she's a lifeguard. - She's a lifeguard and they were like, not that lifeguards can't drown, but it's like-- - Of course they can, but they were like,

no, she's a very strong swimmer. And it's not like there was weather that day or anything where the water, like the pond, water, or something rough, when would she have drowned? - Well, that she just arrived at her post.

- Yeah, it didn't really make any sense. I think that they just-- - You got to think of anything at this point. - Right, you want an answer. You're not gonna immediately be like,

she was abducted, which you're gonna hope that's maybe you should. - You should. - Yeah, like that, but I'm not a police officer.

“- I feel like you should just overreact.”

- Yeah, always overreact.

- Yeah, you know, but so her brother, John, even got in the water to search for his sister himself. He was diving all around, trying to find any sign of Molly. The investigators actually made him come out so that they could bring in their boats and divers.

- Oh. - They looked and looked and looked, Molly had not drowned. She was not anywhere in that water.

that would haunt this case for like the next 20 years to come. A white car had been parked in the lot that, in the lot the day earlier, so the previous day. - Okay. - And the man sitting inside a really freaked Maggie out.

So much so that she actually didn't leave Molly alone until the car left. - Oh. - Yeah. She said that she saw a man sitting in a white parked car

smoking a cigarette and she saw him staring and actually most of the articles that I read said glaring at Molly. - What the fuck? - Yeah, and she said there was immediately

this horrible feeling in her gut while she stared back at the man, like a self-proclaimed mama bear, like, like, dressed with my daughter, like. So he stared right back at her

and then finally drove away.

- Oh, that would, I'd be way too horrified at by that.

“- But I think she was like, well, John worked here”

for like three years and like, you're not gonna think this person is like, no, I'm gonna come back. - Of course not, you're immediate to like, hindsight right now.

I'm like, oh, right, but it's like in the moment, you're gonna be like, he's gone. - Right, he's gone, that was weird, that was gone. - Yeah. - And actually the morning that Molly went missing,

Maggie was relieved because when they got there, there was a sand delivery truck. So she was like, okay, Molly, she was like, I wasn't gonna leave her alone after that happened that day. But now I see that there's workers here, there's other people.

- And she, actually Molly had arrived a little bit late that day. Like, she, I think she was supposed to be there before 10. - So she was like, there were, the summers are gonna be here any minute. - Yeah. - She's not alone.

- Yeah. And so the day before she had actually walked Molly to her post and hung out for a while until she was sure that the creepy man had driven off. And she was able to give all the details

of the man's features to a sketch artist and a composite sketch was made showing an older man with a large mustache, dark eyes, and salt and pepper hair holding a cigarette. - Ew.

- Yeah. - I'm just picturing it and I'm like, yeah. - So the first one was done and she was like cool. But they actually had a second sketch artist come in named,

“I believe it's Jean Boylan and we'll post that one”

because that is like the most well known in the case. Like if you're Googling it right now, - That's gonna say the one that's one. - Yeah, that's the one by, I believe it's Jean. - Maybe it's so horrifying.

- He's terrifying. - Yeah, I hate it. - Yeah. So by this point, the police, the warm police are realizing

that they have a missing person's case on their hands and they decide to bring in the state police because Warren didn't, Warren's like, we said in the beginning, a quaint little quiet town, nothing like this.

- How was that? - Exactly. And that's the other reason why I'm sure it wasn't the first thing that popped in her head that this guy's gonna like come back and do something.

It's like this, this is a quiet. - It's a quiet town. - It's a quiet town. - It doesn't happen a lot here. - That is a thing.

- Right. But, I mean, I was really happy to see that the Warren police were like, you know, we don't have expertise in this area. Let's bring in the state police. - 'Cause I feel like we have talked about so many cases

where they're like, nope, we can do it. - When the egos get into the way, it's so nice because we've had a few that have done this, which it's like, thank goodness. - Yeah.

- 'Cause it's like when they let the egos go and they're like, we need some help. We can handle this. - Right. - Yes.

- Like not to say that there weren't mistakes made during the investigation. - For sure. They were, but at least they handed, they, you know, gotta give credit for what it's doing.

- Yeah, exactly. - So the first night came and went obviously without Molly's return. Molly's father, John Bish said, quote, "It's hard for me to describe that sinking hollow feeling

you have as divers are looking for your daughter, as dogs are combing through the woods and police officers are searching and interviewing people." And I almost immediately began to think that something really horrible had happened.

- I never, ever can put myself in that state of mind.

- No, I can't. - And anytime I hear it, I'm like, I don't, I just wanna hug these people. - I know. Well, this makes me wanna actually wanna hug you

and we're not even huggers because I almost started crying when I read this. Molly's sister Heather remembered how surreal that first night was. And she said that she kept going outside

just like thinking maybe and hoping that her sister's kidnapper was just gonna drop her off. 'Cause you think like, it's like when you've done something and you're like crap, why did I do that? Can I rewind?

- Yeah, that feeling. - Yes. - But in this case, she's like maybe this will happen. - Maybe a perfect world. - Maybe it'll just happen.

- Right. And Heather and her sister had started to become like, 'cause Heather was a little bit older. And so they were starting to get closer 'cause now Molly was getting older.

And they were kinda Heather said like, having establishing a more like adult sister relationship. - Yeah.

And so always fun when that happens actually.

'Cause that happened was like, you know, with us. - Yeah. - And then it also happened with like me and my brother like eight years apart. - Yeah, and when we got to that point

where you're like suddenly at this good place, you get each other's humor now and you're like cool and like you can hang out. - 'Cause the older person. - Oh, you're like a real person.

- Oh, I can chill with you now, like it's not just making fun of you all the time. Like I can actually hang out with you. - Yeah, I remember. - A little tackle.

“- Yeah, like I remember that point with JP”

and I was like, oh, I know, that is the best. - Yeah. - I remember that point like even with my little sister. - Yeah. - It happens in every sibling relationship.

So the next day there was a massive search. There were helicopters, search dogs, tons of people heading out promptly at six a.m. to find Molly. Business is printed out missing persons, flyers, neighbors joined in on the search.

People tied yellow ribbons throughout the neighborhood. - I remember that. - And oh my god, this broke my heart. I saw an interview with Maggie or it might have been a quote where she said like the yellow ribbons floating

throughout the air like later on. They discovered some remains. - And she was like, it was almost like Molly's hair, like flowing in the wind. - Oh yeah.

- And she was like, it was like, she was there before we knew that she was there. - Oh, oh, oh, that just gave me like full chill. - It gave me, I don't know why it reminded me of the lovely bones, but it--

- No, it does. - Yeah. - 100% it does. - Yeah. - 'Cause you're seeing like the family's grieving.

- Oh, yeah. - This case really.

“- 'Cause I remember when this was all going on,”

and the family or just like your heart shattered. - And for them. - Where for Massachusetts? - Yeah. - Oh, they're like, oh, you're my family,

you're my Massachusetts family. - Yeah. - So it's like I feel like I feel so empathetic. - This family actually reminds me so much of our family, just based on like things that I've seen.

And I'm like, oh, yeah, it's horrible. So yeah, but nothing turned up. So the scene back at the beach was essentially demolished because number one, nobody thought that it took too long to become a crime scene in the first place,

'cause they were like, oh, she ran away. And even before anybody knew anything, there's already like swimmers that are coming for the day. - The day is beginning.

- The mom set up at the life guard post 'cause she didn't know what was going on. - Of course not. - So, you know, it was just demolished. So they tried to get what they could get,

but the other thing is so comfortable. - It's a frickin' beach. - Yeah. - There's sand everywhere. Like, what are you gonna get really?

- Oh, yeah. I mean, outdoor crime scenes forget about it anyways.

It's always harder, but then you add like,

next to the water. - Right.

“- You know, your next to the water, it's windier.”

- Right. There's moisture around, like, it's just takes a night air. - But something that really bothered the investigators working of like what they had of a scene was that the first aid kit was open.

And like I said, yeah, why was it open? Like, it was just some like a little detail that will become much better. - Yeah, when you set it, first I was like that's strange. - It's just a little weird.

- Yeah. - Well, and what they wondered was maybe somebody approached Molly and gained her trust by like, leading her to believe that they were injured in some way, like Ted Bundy. - Oh, you have a band aid, or do you have this?

And got hurt, it like grabbed something, hopped down from her post and helped them. And then they probably just scooped her up. And that seems so likely. - It absolutely does.

- Because it's like a Ted Bundy thing. They prey on somebody who will help them. - Right. I mean, she's a lifeguard. - Yeah.

- And she's like, that's my job. And she's a sweet girl. So yeah, she's a kind person, of course. She's gonna help. She has a first aid kit.

- Right. - And it's a perfect way.

“I always thought that, too, was like the lifeguard post,”

you're like, oh, you're high in the air. That's like a good place to be. I guess if you're being attacked, 'cause it's like they have to get you down, right? But to get her down, that's a perfect way to do it.

- Exactly. - To stay new, it's much harder to get them down. - Right. - So that's-- - They prey don't sit even worse.

- They preyed on her kindness. - Yeah. Now, right off the bat, so they're thinking that's weird, but obviously they have to clear the people that they know exist.

- Of course.

- Awesome, her boyfriend, where the first people looked into,

is like, people of interest, but they both had either alabies or passed their polygraph test. - Yes. - So they were quickly like, no, it wasn't them.

Now, with the news of the lurking man in the car, there was a roadblock set up and a tip line established. So people were obviously calling in to say all kinds of things. Obviously we have like the people that just want to call, 'cause they're born on the shoes day.

- And they're like-- - Parval. - I saw Molly in like Wisconsin or I saw her here, like they were just saying like all parts of the country. - I hate that people do that.

- Acting like she was a runaway. It's like, don't get a life, just don't do it. - Get a hobby. - Seriously like a different hobby. - Like can you for one second,

but like understand that this girl has a family? - Right. - Like you're destroying every time you do that. Like, and here's the deal. She could have still been alive while you're calling in that tip

that she's halfway across the country or something like that. And then they're looking into that, and that's precious time wasted. - Exactly. - Where they could have potentially rescued her.

- Exactly.

- That's the thing, it always derails the investigation

'cause it sends it sometimes on a wild goose chase. - Right. - And while they're looking into this, some shit is going down over here. - Exactly.

- That's just so entertaining. - I just don't understand like what you gain from that. - I don't get people's mentality that do that shit. - No. - It's like, I'm really kidding.

- That's some shady shit. - And I just can't imagine like sorting through the tips and being like being the one to determine what we're gonna go after and what we're not. - Yeah.

- That's a really hard job. - That's a thing, yeah. - So yeah. Some people are saying she's halfway across the country, but other people reported that they had seen that white car

at the cemetery a few days prior with a man in it who looked similar to the sketch.

just a couple minutes before Maggie and Molly arrived.

Ooh, yeah. And there was actually a trail on the beach leading to that cemetery.

“I think it was like one article I read said”

it was like a fork in the beach and like one side of it led to that cemetery. (upbeat music) - And he's the sketch is like very like, you would know.

- Yeah. - He would know that guy. - He has a very, he honestly looks like Matilda's dad. - He kind of does. - Like a little bit.

- Like, did he do I love your word? - He has a very distinct mustache. He has very distinct eyes. - It's very distinct. The eyes really feel like thing that I like.

- Even like the forehead wrinkles in the way his hair is parted. Like very specific nose shape. - Mm-hmm. - I don't, if you saw him, you'd be like yeah.

- That is him. - Yeah, like I definitely saw that guy. - It's not just a guy with a mustache. It's a very specific guy. - And it's, and we'll post it.

- Yeah. - And then that trail actually police ended up investigating it, but they came up with nothing. - Oh, really? - There's nothing there.

- Again, it's outside. So it's so hard. - Well, that's the thing. - It's so easy to lose evidence of that. - I mean, but only thing that I guess that,

like they could have gotten was like tire tracks, but maybe they're just weren't done. - Yeah, I mean. - And who's to say that he was in the cemetery? That's again, just a tip.

- So yeah. - So yeah. - So it's gonna say I just slammed into my microphone. I'm sorry. - We talk with a hands.

- So yeah, things were being investigating. Nothing's turning up. They are like sex offenders in the area where interviewed, they were polygraphed. Actually a few of them did not pass their polygraph tests.

- Huh? - But there wasn't really, there was like a couple of people that didn't, and there was nothing to hold them on really. And no, I mean, they don't have a shred of evidence. So what are they gonna do?

- Yeah, what are you gonna do? - You can't do much with just a poly.

“- Yeah, you can't be like, I think you lied.”

- Yeah, and also it's weird that multiple of them lied. - Like, yeah, strange. I think it maybe it's just like nerves. - Yes.

- I feel like I could never pass one of those.

I think I would just be like, "Yeah, and if you're coming in as the sex offenders "are already, you're probably already." - I'm already. - Terrific.

- Which you should be. - Don't, sex offenders. - Don't do it. - So the next big tip would not come until May of 2003, three years after Molly Bish went missing.

- Wow. - Yeah. - A hunter from the area had seen a blue bathing suit in the woods in a nearby town called Palmer, which I've actually literally never heard of it.

- Oh, yeah, I've heard of it. - Oh, all right, it's Massachusetts. One police went to investigate. They did find a piece from what they determined to be Molly's bathing suit.

Not only did her father remember buying that bathing suit with his daughter. It was like this very specific blue and white color. They said like he was like, "I know that was it." But DNA testing confirmed that it was Molly's.

- Oh, that's horrific. - Now once the bathing suit was found, there was another massive search. And actually it was the biggest search and Massachusetts state history.

- Oh, yeah. - Yeah. - This was everywhere. - Absolutely. - It was in high school when this happened.

It was everywhere. - Yeah.

“- I don't remember it because I think I was literally”

five years old. I was pretty aware you were really. I mean, in 2003 or what, like eight years old? - Yeah, I was like, I'm not into that. - Or I was eight.

- Yeah. - It doesn't matter, but I don't remember this at all 'cause I'm not so little. And I think probably if it was on the news, somebody was like, let's not have that on.

- Let's just turn that all this five year olds in here. - Yeah. - But yeah, so that huge, huge, huge search, massive search, biggest in US, in Massachusetts history.

And then the first week of June,

there were multiple grim discoveries. Partial remains were found in Palmer, in an area called Whiskey Hill. A lot of hair and a tongue ring were also found all confirmed to be Molly's.

- Oh, yeah. - And I thought this was like a really cute story 'cause I think it's like, I think she's so badass for convincing her parents to get a tongue ring. - I know, I was gonna say, what a badass.

- Right. - And John Cena remember taking Molly to get her tongue pierced the previous spring. And he was like the only reason that I did it is that she promised she would wouldn't get any tattoos

or any other piercings until she was 45 at least. And I just thought that was like a cute story. - Well, she seems like she was such a good kid to be like pretty responsible. - They were like, it's not rebellious.

- What you want to do, and if, if your kid is that good and they're like, can I just get my tongue pierced? Like, it's not permanent. - No, you know, it's especially in 2000s. - Yeah.

- I remember even when I was in high school, people are still getting their tongue pierced. - Oh, yeah, but like, and I feel like back then, it was like such a pose, a huge thing then. - Yeah.

- So I thought that was just like a cute story, like father-daughter story. - Yeah, they just seemed like they were like, an honest bond between them was something like, really personal and it's sad.

- Yeah, her parents just seemed so cool. - Yeah. - Like I seem like really just like down to earth, sweet people, her mom, and like I said in the beginning, her mom was saying how Molly had like an,

I love Lucy sense of humor, and her mom in interviews,

she's smiling through a lot of pain,

“but you can tell that she's like kind of goofy and silly too.”

- Yeah, like she just gives that vibe off. - They just seemed like really fucking awesome people. - Yeah, it's really sucks when this shit happens,

'cause it's always to these kind of people.

- Exactly, you know, I hate it so much. Now, only 26 of the 206 phones that make up the human body, were found. - Wow, 26. - Wow.

- Maggie and John actually had to wait to collect their daughters or means, and wait to hold a funeral service, so that everything could be analyzed. And then they were advised against cremating Molly's remains

in case like any new testing or anything that came about. - Yeah, I can understand that. - So Molly's remains were buried along with her prom dress, and a ton of letters from written by a friend's and family. - Wow.

- And like with the prom dress, it's like, "Oh, 'cause you forget." - She literally just went to prom. - She was fucking 16. - Like what?

- And this is really just gonna drive the point home like how horrific this case was and how much this poor family suffered. Molly was buried on what would have been her 20th birthday. - Wow.

- I'll guess second to that one.

- Wow. - It's just horrific.

“- So let's get into like, who the heck did this now?”

Who's affected this? - Right. - So there's, we're gonna get into suspects, and I'm like reluctant to even say suspects, because so far in the past 20 years,

that this case has been ongoing and open and everything, no arrests have ever been made. - Which is crazy. - It's been, I mean, 21 years now. - I know, and it feels like 2003, you're like,

"Oh yeah, that was a few years ago." - Yeah, in 2000, she disappeared. - Yeah. - But there have been a lot of different persons of interest along the way.

- Now, the first person was named in February of 2008. This is a man named Rodney O Stegner, I believe, si say it. He was arrested and floored up for the murder of his girlfriend, Crystal Morrison. He stabbed her 39 times and nearly decapitated him.

- Jesus. - So that just goes to show you what kind of guy I was dealing with. Crystal's sister, Bonnie actually came forward to give information that she thought

might be helpful in the Molly Bishop investigation. - Wow. - Now, she said that she and her sister hadn't spoken for like almost 20 years, and then out of the blue, Bonnie got a call from Crystal.

And Crystal told Bonnie that she was sure that she was going to be murdered by her boyfriend, Rodney, that night. - Wow.

- And the entire, first of all, the conversation

starts off like that. And then the rest of the conversation is just like very bizarre. It was almost like she was speaking, Crystal was speaking to Bonnie and some kind of like code. - Wow, and she, you don't talk to her for 20 years.

- And that's what she calls her. - And that's what she calls her. - She's like, I'm fairly certain. I'm gonna be murdered. - Yeah, I mean, what the fuck, right?

So she also, Crystal also told her sister that she needed the phone numbers for the FBI and the Massachusetts state police. - Remember there? - There it is.

- They're living in Florida. - And she was like, I don't need Florida police. I mean, Massachusetts state police. - What? - And she wanted both parties to come and talk to her

and Rodney about murderers. - Murderers. - Oh, that's weird. - Yep, now it's gonna get, we're there. - Because Crystal actually commented a couple times

and seemed to be making a point about asking Bonnie about her bird, like I guess Bonnie had this bird, that was like squawking in the background. And Crystal kept commenting on it. There was multiple phone calls.

And she's like one day Bonnie told her the bird's name 'cause she asked and she was like, okay. And then the next night she asked the bird's name again and she's like, how did she already, like the article I read, she was like,

how did she already forget? We just talked about this. - Yeah. - And Bonnie reminded Crystal that that bird's name is Molly. And then the phone went silent

and Bonnie realized that there was a reason why Crystal was making a point to mention the bird. What, and I guess she was like, it's Molly and then there were silence. And then Bonnie was like, oh my God.

And Crystal was like, yep, like, oh my God. - Yeah. - Did Rodney look like the sketch? - Oh, okay. We'll get into that.

- Oh my God, I'm stressed. - Now Rodney, believe it or not, so remember, they're in Florida, but believe it or not, he had actually lived in Southbridge,

Massachusetts, Massachusetts, which is only about 15 miles away from Warren, which would be like a 25 minute drive. - Yeah, I'm not good at it. - Not bad.

- Not bad. - He was an crazy guy. I don't remember hearing about this. - Really? - It's not, really.

- This is like actually new to me. - Oh, this is in 2008. - Wow.

“- I think there was just like, probably so much about this case, yeah.”

So yeah, he was an experienced hunter and fisherman with a known background of violence against women, obviously. And that was exactly who the authorities were looking at at that time. They said it's probably somebody just like that

between the ages of 18 and 50. - Yeah, we get narrowed like the ages down more than that, but they're a hunter, they're a fisherman, they know the area, they're definitely violent. Now, Rodney was, quote, familiar with Commons pond

and whiskey hill.

this guy lived quote three tenths of a mile away from the Y.M.C.A. in Southbridge

“where Molly got her lifeguard certification.”

- Shut up. - Now, shut the front door. - Shut the front door. - Shut it. Molly's dad worked part time at a hospital in Southbridge,

so he would bring Molly to her classes and pick her up when they were done, but there were some days where she got out early or like he had to stay late, so she would hang out around the area.

And there was a local coffee shop that she would usually hang out at until like her dad would come get her. Now, one of the private investigators who worked for the Bish family, his name is Tom Shamsak.

I believe so you say it. He said quote, it's very significant because it's a possible explanation

of where Rodney Stagner may have first encountered Molly Bish.

This is not a heavily populated area. It's quite possible that the two of them met there. She may have been chatted up. He may have extradited information from her, namely that she was going to be employed at Common's Pond.

- This... - Well, yeah. - Y'all, like, there's so many pieces that fit here. - Oh, absolutely. So, and Tom felt that way, too.

So, the private investigators, so he actually went to visit Rodney in prison because remember he's in prison for literally murdering his girlfriend. He went to go speak with him

and he showed Rodney a picture of Molly and he said that Rodney wouldn't even look at the picture. Like, glanced at it and pushed it back across the table. Like, didn't want to look at it. - I feel like Rodney did it.

- Mm-hmm. I... I'm like shocked right now. So, you're going to be even more shocked. Now, going back to Crystal Sister Bonnie,

she was the one who had to go into the home where her sister was murdered to gather all of her sister's belongings. And it took a little while.

“I think Bonnie was experiencing some health issues,”

but so it took a little while. But when she got there, she found Rodney's wallet with a copy of his firearms license.

And she said, quote, "When I first saw the FID,

I said to myself, "Oh, my God, "this guy could have sat there and posed for that sketch." - What? (upbeat music) So, and I'll post the picture of his firearms license,

which is from Massachusetts. It is essentially identical. Like, when she says that he could have sat and posed for it, that it's not an exaggeration at all. I need, I'm like, okay, stop it.

Like, right, it's in sync. Now, Bonnie also found, and this is so creepy that we recently covered a case where something similar happened. Bonnie also found a bag of hair accessories,

like Clips and Berets, that she was like, these definitely did not belong to Molly. She was like, these belong to a child. And there was like a whole thing of them, a bag of them. - What?

- In the home, yes. And then, here's one more thing on Rodney. - I hate this.

- His brother Randy owned a white Chrysler,

and both of them moved to Florida together, pretty shortly after Molly disappeared. - Okay, hello. - Mm-hmm, oh my God. So, because we talked about Rodney,

we also have to talk about his brother Randy, the white Chrysler owning Berets. - Yeah, he was actually connected to a missing person's case himself. - Oh, what's he?

- Do you know about the Holly Purrinen case? That sounds very familiar. - I literally looked up how to say it, and I wrote it phonetically, Purrinen. - Purrinen.

- That sounds very familiar. - So Holly was a 10-year-old little girl, and she went missing from Stirbridge, Massachusetts in 1993. She had been, I believe, vacationing with her grandmother. And she and her little brother's act took like

a short walk to Justin neighbor's house. They were checking out, like, some new puppies that the neighbor had. But somewhere along the way, they got separated, and Zach came back without her.

And when the adults and everyone went back to look for her, all that was left of her was a shoe by the side of the road. - Oh my God. - And this little girl must have been like, absolutely, like, super, super smart,

because she had just gone to a camp,

“and they talked about what you should do”

if you're, like, being abducted or something like that. And they said, like, leave something behind. So her family thinks that she, like, probably kicked off that shoe as to leave behind a sign, a 10-years-old.

- Rip my heart out of my chest. - Yeah, now, again, this is really horrible. Three weeks later, Holly's body was found in the woods of Brimfield, Massachusetts, right off of five-bridge road.

- Oh, now, I've been to Brimfield for the antique there. You know, they look like a huge antique there. - You know, who else had been to Brimfield? - Oh, that's a great antique there. - It is, but that just, like, bumps me out.

- Randy had been in that area. - Oh, I'm shocked. - And actually, he was living in those same woods in a tent where a body was discovered. - Stop it.

- Yeah, coincidents, I think, not. - No, this is too much. Now, people who hunted with both brothers, later, said to the authorities that they were pretty close to five-bridge road when they were hunting.

Like, and they had, like, seen up before the brothers, had been pointed it out to them, and then, like, oh, like, there's that over there.

of, like, images of this man that he thought he saw. In 2005, these flashbacks started happening, and he was able to talk to a sketch artist. And the man that he described looks a lot like Randy. - Oh.

- And he had never seen Randy before,

like, never seen a picture of him or anything. And then, in 2011, DNA from Holly's crime scene was actually able to connect to a man named David Bulliet,

“I think as I said, and he, that DNA connected him to the scene.”

So, like, he was at the crime scene, but he wasn't named a suspect, and he passed away in 2003. - Huh, yeah. - Now, I didn't look too deep into it because this is mostly about Molly,

and maybe we'll cover Holly's disappearance at another point in time. But I'm pretty certain her case is still open, and there was actually somebody's body was exhumed that they thought was like, in connection with the case.

- Oh, that's horrific. - So, it can't even, it's wild. - And so bad. - The connections between Molly and Holly's case are like very eerie, and that's just the least,

and it's not only the suspects involved, because they were both 10 years old in 1993,

they were that Holly went missing,

and Molly actually wrote Holly's family a letter, because she was so touched by the case. - Yeah, and she told them that she hoped that they would find Holly soon. - Oh my God. - So, literally, like, this is so strange.

- I don't even know what to say about that. - Yeah, I don't even nuts. - Wow.

“- Yeah, and I do feel like it's worth mentioning”

that these two girls had similar features, like blonde hair, blue eyes. Their reductions were sort of similar, both having been in pretty secluded areas where there was not like a quote-unquote adult around.

- Yep, weird. - That is very weird. - Yes. But Rodney and Randy were not the only people of interest. There was another man named as a suspect by another private investigator on Molly's case,

and this was Dan Malley. This man named as a suspect by Dan Malley was Gerald Bautisoni. Gerald is a disgusting monster, a pedophile, just the lowest of the low.

- Oh, yeah, he's horrible. And he had some shocking connections, not only to Molly's case, but Holly's as well, both cases. Now, he was named as suspect by the PI in 2011,

when he was already in prison for raping a teenage girl in the '90s. - Disgusting. - Yeah, and the girl who he raped was the daughter of a woman that he had been dating.

- Oh.

“- Yeah, this woman that he raped this young girl”

said that he, excuse me, he had assaulted her. Oh, it's actually assaulted her over 100 times. - Oh, my God, yes. And it seems that he was quite literally obsessed with her. He told her, there was multiple police reports

regarding this case. He told her that he loved her in front of the police, who were called when he broke her straining order, just to go see her. - What?

- So, it's not unlikely to think that Gerald may have been stalking this young girl.

And here's what's weird about that.

When Molly Bush went missing in 2000, the rape victim was actually living on common, common, on road. - Stop. - So he could have just been there. - Yeah.

- Doing what he was doing, he'll happen to find. - And happen to find Molly. - And like, I mean, I don't even wanna go. - And also, I just looked up a photo of him. - He looks like those eyes.

- Yeah. - Those eyes. - Right. - Those eyes. - Right. - That's the same fucking eyes from that. - But the scariest thing is, I mean,

Rodney looks like him too. Like it's, but I'm gonna be honest. - Gerald looks normal. - Gerald looks normal. - Yeah, I agree with you. - Those are very specific in that sketch.

- Yeah. - And looks like that guy. - He absolutely does. - Slap a mustache on him, and he's him. - Well, he has a mustache. - Just like the photo on the photo, I saw he didn't.

- Yeah, there's a reason for that. - So the fuck, I can't, this is stressing me out. - Yeah, so like I said, he also had connections to Holly's case. The woman that he'd been dating,

the victim's mother, was a real estate agent who had a homeless state right near Holly's grandmother's house. And like the woman, the mother of the victim, her name and picture and everything was on that sign. So I don't know if it was like some kind of like revenge,

like doing it in an area where the mother was, 'cause he's a child. - Oh my god. - I don't know. - But weird that, yeah. - Those two cases are connected to that man as well.

- Very strange. - Yeah, very strange. - And also the day that Molly went missing, Gerald was working on his wife at the time, her car, which was a white sedan. - Okay.

- And he told her that he took it for a spin out in Warren where Molly went missing. - Yeah. - And his wife said that was weird because he didn't have a license at the time.

And that once the news of Molly's disappearance broke, he shaved his mustache and stopped going places, like stayed at home most of the time. (upbeat music)

- I truly, when I looked at that photo of Gerald,

I was like, that's the guy. - Oh, it's just those eyes? - Yeah, the speedy little fucking eyes. - The specific, they are so specific in both of those sketches, that is him.

- Yeah, it's compelling. Now, then it's like Rodney was very compelling too. - I know, a lot of it's very compelling. - Those eyes, man. I can't get past this.

- Yeah, it's still alive. - They don't, the windows to the soul. - Yes. - I know, let's go. - Well, Gerald also loved, he liked true crime.

He loved to watch court TV, and he would talk about true crime a lot. - I'll talk about the cases. He would watch some cases over and over again. - Hate that?

- He also would apparently cut out like brutal newspaper clippings and just leave them around the house. - Fun. - And be like, this is how I'm gonna kill you, like to his wife.

- So quirky. - Yeah, super quirky, super quirky. But for some reason, when his wife brought up the Molly Bush case to him, he didn't want to talk about it at all.

And he told her, quote, "Sometimes there's just no evidence." - Yeah. - I literally, come on. - And by the way, Gerald had been known, and it is cited in police reports.

He had been known to impersonate a police officer.

So like we said, like the first aid kit was open,

sure, maybe that meant something. Maybe it didn't. Or maybe she would thought she was helping a police officer. - Yeah. - 100%.

“So maybe that's how he got Molly to trust him,”

and he lured her away when she tried to help him. Gerald looks good for this man. - Do you know if he was a smoker? - I don't know. - I was gonna say it's probably not.

- Oh, we know, no, no, that's a lie. I do know, actually, sorry, sorry, sorry. His wife, because I didn't find this anywhere. I saw it in one article. So I'm not sure if this is the absolute truth.

But I guess Maggie made it a point to when she was doing the composite sketch to say how the guy was holding the cigarette or he's holding it a certain way in the picture. - Yeah, I didn't think it was like any specific way.

Like, I feel like that's how most people hold it. But his wife said that there was like a certain way that he would hold a cigarette, and she said that you still like piss her off. - Really?

- And she noticed that the man in the sketch is like holding it similarly, or Maggie has said that he was. - 'Cause he was a smoker. - He's holding it between his two fingers.

- Yeah. - But his fingers are very rigid. - Yeah, like pointed out. - Like almost like somebody would be like parading someone, like smug, like,

- Yeah, like I'm smugging a cigarette. - Yeah, just looks like he would be making fun of someone smoking a cigarette. - Yeah, I'm so cool. 'Cause most people hold it a little sideways

or they'll maybe hold it between their fingers just like very casually. But he looks very rigid to a point. - Like two-point fingers. - Yeah, it is a very specific way to hold your cigarette.

- So, I mean, there you have it. - I'm so, I'm, I, Gerald. - So there's that, and then it is also said that he used to buy drugs in whiskey hill where Molly's remains were found.

So he knew that area well too. - Uh, and then the smoking gunnelina. - This is really gonna send you all the way. - What is it? - Home, he attempted suicide when news broke

that he was probably connected to Molly and Holly's case. He tried to slit his own throat, but it didn't work. He was taken to a hospital and treated.

- He did it. - However, he did it. - He died in prison in 2014 without confessing. - Yeah, I think a part in either case. - Damn it.

- But he is a pretty strong suspect. - He, to me, yeah, feels like rock solid. - He feels pretty solid. - And it's killing me that he's, oh, that kills me.

- That kills me. - I know. - I remember hearing bits and pieces of him. - Yeah. - But I don't remember following this as closely as I thought.

I would have, but I didn't see it. - See? - Now I'm like, what? - The thing is, like, obviously I think in like, uh, Rodney and Randy's case

is like, there's very, like, creepy stuff.

“And like, honestly, there's more creepy stuff”

about Randy and regards to Holly's case than there's Rodney and regards to Molly's case. - Yeah, for sure. - But the thing about Gerald is that there's like,

a lot of weird shit, like, first of all,

like, why would you try to commit suicide if you had nothing to do with it? - Exactly. - Why would you shave your mustache when you, like, obviously that composite sketch

went out pretty quickly? - You put a mustache on that dude. It is an exact-- - And he had a mustache that really shaved it. - Exact.

- And, like, just all the connections to them is working on the white Chrysler. - Yeah. - That wasn't even his that day. And then he took it for a spin and fucking Warren.

And that he's, like, connected to it because he already is in prison for raping a girl. He smokes and he smokes weird. And then Molly's mom was saying, like, it was a very specific way held a cigarette, right?

Which, again, I'm not sure if she said that, but I didn't see it in one way. - But I didn't see it in one way. - There's so many things on top of so many things. And the fact that the woman, or the young girl that he raped

was living on the same road as the pond,

“and that he was stalking, like, obsessed with that girl?”

- It seemed like he was. - Yeah, it seems like if you're around the area, you happen to come around Molly

- He's probably angry.

- He's a predator and a disgust.

- Exactly. He's a monster. - Yeah.

“- Go and read more about him, because that's not me.”

- I know. - He is just, he, like, used to make his wife wear, like, children's underwear. - Oh, my God. Get the f--

- Yeah. - When I said he's a disgusting monster, I didn't want to, like, say that. - I know he is like-- - But, oh.

- We're naughty. - My number is happening. - Wherever he is, I hope it is, like, nothing we can imagine. - No. - Is it Stanzi on TikTok?

- Who does it? - Like, she, like, pretends to be the devil in hell. I hope that she is like his, his hell. - His version of hell. - I love Stanzi.

- She's the best. - She really is.

- I think, isn't it Stanzi potenza?

- I think it is. - I think that's what it is on TikTok. She's hilarious. Go follow her. - Yeah, I haven't.

- She is great. - But, so yeah, back to this. No, in 2013, construction started close by to where Molly's remains were found.

“And the construction was for a race track in the area”

that was going to be used for, like, quote, driver education, motor vehicle testing, demonstration, and competition. So just a bunch of shit. And the best family was actually hopeful that some evidence might be discovered

during the construction. - Yeah. - Absolutely. They're going to be digging around everywhere. - Right, exactly.

And it's a huge area. - Yeah. - And it's right where her remains were found. It's like right there. And Maggie said, quote, I'm so happy that it was, like,

dealt with properly.

She said, they were very, very conscientious

and took it very seriously about what they could come across. - Because they also said that they'd be very happy and very willing to put up a memorial for Molly. - Ah, in there. - Okay, so there is a memorial for Molly.

It's like this big yellow sign. - I don't know if it's like by her house or if it's the memorial that these people put up, I tried to find a to figure out where exactly it is, but I can only see a picture of it, like, not where it is.

- Oh, really. - Yeah. - Well, I'll have to find out. - Yeah. - But I was happy that they--

- Yeah, they took it so seriously. - Exactly.

“- Now, it's unclear if any evidence was found there.”

Like, I didn't find any follow-up of any evidence being found when they built the track, but I thought it was worth mentioning. - Yeah, for sure. - Now, they did find things, maybe they aren't saying it.

- And I'm gonna get into a little bit of that, you know. - Because a year later, in 2014, some new evidence was found. A partially buried bag was found across the street from where Molly's remains were discovered.

And the bag contained a plaid box or shorts that were similar to the ones that Molly had been wearing over her bathing suit. - Oh, okay. - That day she was wearing just like little shorts

and a pink tank top. - Okay, so this bag that was found had shorts that were similar to the ones that she was wearing. Now, that again, I haven't found any updated information regarding that discovery, like if it led anywhere else,

but it seems like there's been a few discoveries in recent years that the investigators are holding close to the chest, like you would say. - Yeah. - So it makes sense.

- Yeah, I couldn't find one to let everything out because-- - No, and it does seem like they're kind of getting somewhere. - It did, yeah, from what I could see, it looks like there seems like there's something

that would be something. - But I mean, it's been 20 years so they probably have to go over everything like over and over again. - Oh, for sure.

- Now, it's a more like pretty big news, broke during a 2014 campaign that Molly's family put together. It's called the just one piece, excuse me, just one piece campaign.

Now, the name comes from the hope that people will realize that just one more piece of evidence could solve this entire case or help the investigation. And it serves as a reminder that no information in this case is too small.

- Yeah, like if you know even just an inkling of something, call and say it, yeah, for sure. - If you really know it to be true. But so they put together this campaign and people can come forward to make confidential statements

during this that may help the investigation. - Awesome. - So in 2014 they had this and four people came forward to identify a new person of interest. - Okay.

- Apparently there was a man staying and a campground nearby. And he was gone like one whole entire day. And it was the day that Molly went missing. And he came back the next day.

And his face was like all messed up. There was like scratches and his face was bloody. And he was talking, excuse me, he was yelling about, quote, something bad that happened in the woods the night before.

- What? - Yes. And then apparently again, he's not named, but in recent years he has allegedly been bragging to people that he knows he's a person of interest.

And they still haven't like come around and review him. - What? - Yeah, so strange. Now his name, like I said, still hasn't been released, but that does make me slightly hopeful

that they might be on to something here. - Yeah, if they're not releasing his name, that's interesting. - That's pretty big. - I think that's interesting.

- Now another piece of information that came out during the same campaign, the just one more peace campaign, was about a white car that may be buried at old sawmill campground in West Brookfield.

that the unidentified man was staying at,

but couldn't determine that. - Yeah.

“- The property isn't a campground anymore”

and it's owned by a different person than it was at the time of Molly's death. Now the new owner gave permission for the property to be searched. And ground penetrating radar was used

to search the ground for a car that is supposedly buried beneath the campground. - And, quote, compelling anomalies were found during the search. Yes, now I haven't seen any update about this

since 2018, like the search for the car. I don't know if they found the car. I don't know anything because, like Mama, I was looking, like Tricksie Mattel and Mama. I was looking for this and looking and looking.

I spent like an hour just trying to find out any update on the car situation. - I'm dying. I have to know. - I haven't found one.

I haven't found one. But again, it gives me hope that like maybe they did find something and they are just not saying it right now. Or they're really like treading them out like they're trying to make sure they do everything right

'cause they do know that things are connecting. I hope I hope I hope I hope. - So they went out there one day

“and they saw that like they found some stuff”

and then they came back a couple days later and like looked around some more. Now an unnamed man who looks a lot like the composite sketch actually still lives in the same area, which I don't, he could be the man

that people are coming forward about. He's a known fisher and hunter and he was friends with the original owner of that campground. And Heather Bisch, Molly Sister said that at the time of Molly's murder,

there was construction equipment at the campground that could have been used to aid and bury in that car. - Oh, 'cause I was gonna, that was a very successful car. I was like damn, that's a lot of work to bury a car.

- But then if your friends with the guy that works there and there's already a construction equipment, you can just dig a giant hole, stick the car in there. - Boom, put it in your neutral, you're good to go.

- Oh my god, I got to know. - Now Heather Bisch seems to be the one who is really taking things over for the family right now. John, senior had a stroke, like they're definitely, they're not like old at all, but they're older now.

I mean, they've been through a lot in their life. So for sure. - I think Heather is like really like,

“almost like the spokesperson and like really like keeping this life.”

But everybody in the family has done, like I'm gonna get into it in a second. But Heather said that she will fight until her dying day to find out who this person was and what happened to her sister.

- Oh my god, I wanna like help her. - I do too. - This is making me crazy. - I'll let you onto something at the end of this. So Molly's memory has kept alive

in some really beautiful ways. The entire family, like I just said, I'm gonna get into it now.

They have done the most incredible work.

They've provided thousands of families for Massachusetts, Connecticut, and New York with like thousands and thousands of identification kits for their children. - You know how like when a kid is little,

you like finger print them, you know? I don't even know what goes into it. But the reason that they did this is because they didn't really have, they had like prom pictures and stuff with Molly. - Yeah, it just wasn't a thing back then.

- But it wasn't exactly what she looked like. So they had trouble finding a recent picture of her. - Yeah. - So they helped other families so that like God forbid they were ever in the circumstance.

They would have the kids thing they needed to be like, here's all of the things you will need to find them. - Yes, which is like so amazing. - So like scary when you think about it, but it's something that needs to be done, unfortunately.

- Which is a horrific that it needs to be done. - Right. They also set up the Molly-Bish Foundation, and they have traveled for years to different events all about protecting children

against crimes like these. They helped bring the Amber Alert to Massachusetts. - Amazing. - They worked on like countless different legislations that are like all about protecting children,

all about like crimes regarding children, abductions, and they also set up another foundation. The Molly-Bish Center for the protection of the children and the elderly. - My God.

- So they have just like essentially dedicated their lives to getting just not only getting justice for Molly, but like preventing this from ever happening to another family. - We'll need to take that kind of tragedy and that kind of grief and turn it around.

- Like nightmare situation and turn it into something like so positive and so like to reach out to other families and like that's just like, because literally your world just implodes on you like no one would blame anybody in that family for just like going to bed

and like never like being the same average.

- Yeah, like never wanting to talk to another person ever again. I would not blame one of the soul of them. - But then they turn around. - And this is like wow. - They dedicated their entire lives to this.

- Unreal. - And Heather has gone on like different like podcast. She's like talked to different news outlets and everything like Heather really wants to get this case solved for her sister and for her family.

- I want this for her so badly. - I want it for her so badly. - So this past year on June 27th for the 20th anniversary of Molly's disappearance,

to Cummins pond leave their porch light on

or a candle in the window. And also that people leave a kindness rock at the sign near the bushhouse, which when I read that I was like, is that the sign like the yellow one?

- Maybe, but leave a kindness rock there. She asked them to do it so that Maggie can use them in her garden. - I want to bring a kindness rock. - Dude, I literally in my mind.

I was like, I want to drive there right now. - I want to go and leave a kindness rock. - I know. She drove her parents to the pond that day.

“To remember Molly as they always do on June 27th.”

- Oh, yeah. Now district attorney Joseph D. Early Jr recently said quote, "The Molly Bush case is turning 20 years old." Now 21, but the tip still come in every week and every tip is followed up on.

We have had many items tested for DNA over the years and we continue to do so. This case is very active and a tremendous amount of work is being done. I am hopeful it will be solved.

- Oh. - And investigators asked her that people come forward and share their DNA, especially now that familial DNA is becoming really helpful in cold cases. - Yeah.

- Like they're really asking for people to do that. Now this is so important if you're listening to anything and listen to this. Anyone with information about the Molly Bush case can call the state police tip line at 508-453-7575.

Again, 508-453-757575. - Amazing. - And Heather Bush said just to end this quote, "If the person who did this could have a change of heart "and tell us what happened,

"it would give us a certain amount of peace "and closure just as far as justice is concerned." So that is the really, really, really tragic case of Molly Bush. - You did such a good job. - Thank you.

- And also this case, wow. - I really hope that we can deliver some kind of update like I hope so as soon as possible. - I swear, I wish I would like Wana help. - I know.

- I would like to. - I just want to help.

It's one of those cases you always feel so helpless

in these, like this particular case, just... - It's speak, I think resonates. - Yeah, the fact that it's a Massachusetts case, the fact that it's like just the fact that it happened so quickly, it was clearly like somewhat planned.

- Yeah, it's definitely, I know it definitely part of it is like Massachusetts family, just like you, just like it's just what a help you. - One, like watching interviews with this family, like I watched so many interviews

and just like different, like reading different things that they said, they're just like your typical family, like they're like your friend, like your best friend's family or like, they're just very relatable people.

- I just want to give them what they deserve. - Yeah, I want to give them, I want to give them some kind of closure and some kind of peace, I really do. - Well, if you go to the Molly-Bish Foundation website,

they have different ways, like where you can help.

“Like if you want to get involved in this,”

that's the perfect place for you to go. They have different resources where you can. - 'Cause sometimes you just feel like so helpless listening to a story like this, like I have on different things and I'm like, I want to do something,

but I feel like I can't. - So go there, go there and figure out how to help. - At least try. - Yeah, and it's seriously, you know something called that number,

that I said, it's only if you know something like for real. - Yes, please. - But like they said, no matter how little you think it is,

it could be make or break, you never know.

- Yeah, 'cause it could connect to something else that you don't know this. - Yeah. - If you know anything, if you heard anything, if you saw anything, anything,

jog your memory. - Yeah, just think about this. - Think about it, Massals. - Come on, Massals. - Almost.

- We're good at this stuff. - We are. - But yeah, wow. - Oh, that is that, thank you for that. And thank you, Patronuses, for choosing that case,

because that was one we always intended to cover, but you guys just sped it up. So thank you for finally getting us to do it. - Moving that to the top of our list. - Yeah.

(upbeat music) (phone ringing) - We just got off the phone with a very special guest, but I'm like hyped that we got to do this. - Yeah, it was amazing.

- It was. And episode two, 14, we covered the case of Molly Bisch. Molly Bisch was a 16-year-old lifeguard who on the morning of June 27th, 2000 was essentially abducted from her lifeguard post.

“And really just honestly go back and listen to the episode”

if you need like a refresher or anything like that. - In daylight. - Yeah, because in plain daylight, she was abducted from her, it was literally 10 o'clock in the morning.

- Yeah, terrifying. - It's so scary. But we before actually, we did the episode, I actually reached out to Molly Sister Heather, who's like very active in trying to solve Molly's case

because this is an unsolved case. - Yeah. - So before it's like 20 plus years later. - It's so crazy and it's so sad.

- And we're from Massachusetts.

So it's like, right, I feel like everybody for Massachusetts feels like they have some kind of like personal stake in this case. Like you just, you want to see this. And like you'll hear in the interview,

we love the Bisch family. And I just feel like they are like our family. - Yeah. - And we want this case to be solved for like, our Massachusetts brother.

And so before I read a ton of about Heather before I started, or while I was researching the case because she's so involved in trying to figure everything out. So we actually reached out to Heather and said, hey, you know we're going to cover Molly's case.

“If you want to come on the show for like an after words,”

kind of interview to tell us about the work that she's been doing to really get this case solved. And then tell us of what we can do. And the numbers that we can call and reach out to help her get this case solved.

- Exactly, because this is unsolved, which is nuts. - So I'm so stoked that Heather was willing to do that and she joined us for an episode. And you guys are going to love this episode. She's amazing.

You're all going to fall in love with her. - Heather, fish is an icon for everybody. - And what we talk about a lot in this,

I just want to put it out first, so that everybody can like

start Googling it while it's beginning. 'Cause it's important is she's really starting to try or starting, she's really in the deep in the process and the need of it to push forward the bill, which is S1595 in Massachusetts.

And she will, I'll let her explain in the episode what it's all about. It's basically to help push forward DNA that was found in Molly's case and also can help in other cases for rape kits.

It has tons of implications. So go look that up real quick before the episode starts

“'cause I think you're going to want to know what's in there.”

- Yeah, definitely. And then after the episode is over, what about your cell phone and just start calling everyone? We said to call, yeah, we'll take a look at the show notes. I'll make sure I put all the information in there

for you guys to, so we can get this case solved. It's time, it is. It's time for Molly and it's time for the fishes. Time for this all. So I think without further ado, here it is.

Enjoy guys. Well, thank you so much Heather for coming on the show. We're honestly really honored to have you as a guest and we appreciate you even taking the time to talk to us. - Oh, that's so kind.

You guys are really, I'm appreciative with what you're doing and sharing these stories and sharing Molly's story, especially, that that's so important, especially with these older cases. I mean, this podcast phenomenon has just been so interesting

to me and I'm just like cheering all of you guys on the sidelines, so I love it. I stand out for every case that's getting pieces of information coming forward or even a rest happening and the work of all the, excuse me, creators that are out there

you know, really sharing these stories. So I am honored. - Oh, thank you so much, that was so sweet. - We were just sitting there like, oh my God, thank you. - Already off to a wholesome start, I'm not ready.

Well, like you, I mean, like you were saying that this case, Molly's case specifically, it captivated, I mean, the nation. - Yeah. - It captivated everyone and we got requests

to cover Molly's case from all over the world. Like before we covered it, people were like,

please cover this case and we were always waiting to do it

because we wanted to do it really right because we're from Massachusetts too. So we were like, I felt like a connection to it. - Yeah, we feel like this is like one of our family members 'cause you know, here in Massachusetts,

we're all just like feeling like we're one. So we were like, we gotta do this right.

“And I think when that happens, it can be, you know,”

it can be great because like information is getting out there. People are behind this case wanting to solve it, wanting to move it forward. But I imagine it must be kind of hard to in a way for family members because you have memories of Molly as a sister.

Your brother has memories of Molly as a sister. Your parents have memory of Molly as a daughter. She was a lifeguard, she was a friend, she was a person. She's not just Molly Bisch, the murder victim. And I think sometimes that can get lost in translation,

which I imagine can be kind of difficult for you guys at times. - It is, and I think there's some, you know, there's some, I think when there's like a benefit of being able to talk about Molly, I think when you lose someone, you love whether it's a sibling or a spouse or your best friend,

you know, people can kind of get weird and they don't want to say anything. And sometimes we'll even avoid walking down the same hallway as you, you know, just to not be in that awkward position. And I think, and so, you know, people don't get a chance

to talk about the person that they loved, you know, and sometimes people are afraid to bring it up because, you know, that loss was so sad and so devastating. But having the chance to talk about Molly, you know, and share, you know, the work that we do

and her love for the world and people.

And it's kept us going and I guess that it's really special, a privilege of all this crazy and awesome. All the ugly enough is that we do get to talk about my sister and think about her and share how our special memories and our moments of joy and how we were proud of her.

And sometimes my brother and I will, you know, have conversations after we, you know, I do these podcasts or where there's a, you know, what news are you call or something? And we'll talk about what do you think to be like,

“or who would you still be fun with from her friend group?”

Or what would you think of this particular situation? Or, you know, and it's, you know, it's kind of, you know, fun for us to do that to imagine what our life would be like to have her with us still because we miss her. I mean, that loss is still felt every single day.

You know, I miss calling her when something good happens. I really miss her on my birthday. I hate my birthday without my sister. It's still awful 20 years later. I just, she should be there with me.

And every year that I have to face without her, it's like, you know, everything that, that scab off and bleeding again. So it's, yeah, it's hard, but there's, there is, you try to, I guess when there's hard things,

always look for those moments of that offer, you know,

the good and, and try to embrace that. Because I don't know how we would survive all this. That's terrible in the world that we can't. Seriously, I can't even imagine trying to navigate this whole entire thing, you know, on top of everything else in the world.

So, right, you have such a healthy way of looking and hoping.

“Yeah, that I think a lot of people would have trouble doing.”

So, we applaud mental health. And yeah, we can share it with our emotional health right now. And it's, be not afraid to go to therapy for 20 years. Absolutely, because it's still important. It's important to continue to unrap how you're responding to the world.

And, and how your family culture sort of trained you to respond to the world and how, you know, either when you're that or maybe think about a different way of doing it. Yeah, we're Irish Catholic over here. So, we know all about that.

Yeah, we drew up at a big Irish Catholic family. We're like, maybe we should talk about our feelings. I'm sorry. I just love that generation. Again, I work at a college. So I have the privilege of working with the younger generations.

And I just love how they're growing up so much more inclusively and talking about feelings. And I just think it's going to make a better world someday. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely, for sure.

I know, and it's really up to us at this point to teach the other young generation how to do that. Because our parents' generation was like right at that point where they were like, kind of ready to tell us to talk about our feelings in the line. Sorry. It gets better each time.

Yep, exactly. Yeah. Well, going off of that, what is like one thing about Molly from a sister's perspective that you want people to know about Molly or even like a specific memory that you guys have together. That makes you smile.

I think I, I always talk about Molly's love for the world.

Most love people who love animals, who love babies, who love being outside the sunshine of beautiful day, getting an ice cream cone, who loved living, who loved life, who love being a part of what was happening around her. And I think, you know, when I think about Molly and I, I guess I'm always most proud of how to welcome people.

She, when she had an art class, she had some special needs students in there and I always tell a story of how she would write them a note and kind of like encouraging them to be a part of the class and welcoming them and making them feel at home because they weren't in the other classes with the rest of the students. They weren't like a thumbs up or a classroom.

And, you know, just her empathy and her ability to think about other people that thoughtfulness. And I, I try to carry that out with me in my life and think about different perspectives and turn things over all the time and because of my sister.

“And she was my baby sister, but that's what she taught me in my life.”

And, you know, I, I hope that people know that the work that we do is, well, because of that, because Molly cares so much about people. Because so much about the world and, you know, making people feel safe and comfortable in their environment and that's, you know, that sort of, you know, the premise of everything that we want to see happening in it.

You know, I guess when you have a case that's 20 almost like one year old, you're like,

And has these are other people and you, you know, as you, you guys explore these various cases

and you know, there's a lot of bad guys out there and so scary and you can go from, you know, being a narcissist who is a murderer and, you know, a short time and, again, you know,

“that mental hospital is important, but, you know, I think just trying to, you know, live in a way”

that we're trying to make the world safer because of Molly. And so, you know, recently I've been working on this familial DNA legislation in Massachusetts which they have and, like, I think 14 other states and it's just really just a process to have the DNA or unidentified DNA from an older case or an older, you know, maybe a rape case or a murder and be able to have a larger, I call it a net to sort of get the bad guy and, you know, we have this

code system that has all of our felonies in there being a profile theoretically. I know you guys know this. Oh yeah, no, go ahead though. Yeah, because this is Bill, is it S1595? Yeah, because we were going to ask you, like, by all means, tell us as much as you can about that.

Yeah, because we want everybody to know about that. Yeah, so, so it just really, what it does is it allows a lot of law enforcement to put this unidentified DNA forward into code is again and tough for a partial mass or familial mass.

So it might, you know, touch on someone 56 percent or 37 percent, but that will lead investigators

to say, hmm, someone in this campaign committed this way, or committed a murder and they can go

“back and put the drawing boy and sort of figure out where the players were and that family that”

did. It was the field. Like unidentified. And it was interesting to me that I found out is that 50 percent of the people in code have a relative in code.

So it's so funny because I came across that too and it shocked me. I know. That's a high number. But then I thought, like, okay, well, there's a lot of teachers in my family, that's my family culture.

And I guess that, you know, you're in a family culture that, you know, rape on the West, each

other, that's going to continue. Yes. And so they thought it was safe to have, you know, people getting arrested in the same family, network that are experiencing that trauma. And when we all know that these behaviors aren't, you know, coming out of the blue, most

people are turning to crime and, and the horrific things, they do to other people because of trauma. So, nurtures a huge part of it. Yeah. So, you know, it's that's that's that's that's the title number story for us.

But if you look at it and a law enforcement perspective or victim perspective, those are, I mean, those are, those are odd, but money on that. It could be, you know, you know, you know, you're serious. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, we're going to get the bad guy. And it was using science. And it hasn't, you know, you know, I identify the wrong curve. And, you know, it's actually used by an innocent project in Michigan as a way to honor these people.

So, really, it's just, for this bill, it's just setting up a protocol in how we would do it in Massachusetts. And I'm just really, really hopeful that, you know, we can get this through. We have an 8,000 of an 8,000, great kit backlog in Massachusetts. So, yes, we would be to get on top of what's happening, specifically in our state, and we were

leaders with MIT and WPI. There's no reason we're cranking out forensic scientists and boss and, and they're all leaving the state. We need to, you know, could have put some resources together for our forensic. I think.

Absolutely. Yeah. We need to nourish this. We have it here. We're building it here.

We need to nourish it here. Right. Exactly. And, you know, we have a lot of, you know, what's the county alone? How 40 to 60 under these old cases?

That's crazy. So sad. They go back to the 50s and, you know, technology might be able to identify that by now, you know.

“So, it's just, I think it's just so important to use what scientific, you know, resources”

that are available for one person. And, and today's society, I mean, there's, you know, good cotton bags, hopps, just like everything. Good teachers and bad teachers. And you want to give the good police officers all the tools available to get those. Bad people off the street.

Great. And it's awesome. Great. Yeah. Right.

“Because I think that's, that's one of the huge things about this is this bill can not only help cases like”

Molly's and families, you know, that are going through the same thing that you're going through.

But this can, those rape kits that are sitting on the shelf. It's like just sitting right beside off the street. Like, this is something everybody should be invested in and everybody should be behind. Absolutely. 100%.

And, you know, some of these rates are violent. Yeah. You know, like, like, I keep trying to stress them. You know, I know I'm preaching to the choir with you guys, but, you know, it's a hair loss away when someone commits one time to go to the next level. Of course.

You know, it is in a sleep out for paranoia or psychosis to go, you know, further deeper. I think we just, you know, we need all our tools available. Absolutely. Because some of these can connect to more violent, you know, offenders. Yeah.

Like, you know, somebody raped someone and they could have escalated to something else.

And we have no idea. Right? Yep. Exactly. Exactly.

Do you think, oh, oh, sorry. Go ahead. Oh, I'm so excited. I, you know, I'm just really hopeful this time that it will go through because we started this about two years ago. I had talked to my, my law enforcement detectives and they had asked that.

“You know, Heather, if you want to, want to work on something, we could really use this.”

But no, you'll be an egg and I had no idea what it was at the time. I'm just like, okay, let's do it. Sure. Anything. Let's do it.

You know, if you can ask me to say like, I have a state has found this as a policy. And that thesis is like, no, we want to law. It's a hard reading. Thanks, Matt. But I'm like, I will kind every mountain.

I will dream from the mountain top until I get this guy and who care how far it takes me. I am bound in determined. And you know, now it's, you know, you're in that club, you know, that everybody talks about that nobody wants to belong to like this. You know, you really start caring about all these other victims, particularly the ones that

at attention. Like, I constantly talk about Patty Ghani, who is murdered and most of her brother founded a next day. People that searched for Patty, like they did from Molly, you know, and they didn't get the national attention that Molly has gotten. And you know, I just hope that it needs a little help from Patty Ghani in his case too.

Absolutely. It's important as all these other victims that I've seen on the news and in podcasts. And, you know, so, yeah, we're all in this together. And, you know, I'm just really hopeful that this will go through this time because we, they're included. It kind of fell apart.

I was on the National Security Persons Talk course. So we were kind of looking at legislation that was floating around in Massachusetts and trying to put a report together to encourage the legislatures to just have this kind of new brainer. So, yes. They said, "Well, we've done your bill. How they're over to the French-Oversight Committee."

And, you know, being educated on, like, yes. I am used to working with, like, you know, when I have a problem on working with the autism specialist. And, you know, the fourth grade teacher. And, you know, we're all kind of coming up with something together. And, I literally just still, myself, and, you know, a special attention on it.

I'm surprised. I just really thought, "Here we go." You're like, "I am putting on another hat." Seriously. So, it worked out really well because they provide the feedback that we were able to edit the bill.

Really just fit our logistical, you know, structures of systems and Massachusetts.

“And, I think it's going in really strong, and I've been spending probably the last two months,”

honing legislators and just asking them to support this. And, you know, most of them will see me or, or see me over Zoom. And, and, and have been really supportive, but, you know, some of them won't meet me because I'm not in their jurisdiction. So, I've been trying to start doing TikToks, and, and whatever media I can use to sort of get people who are in, you know, just people to reach out to their legislators and ask them to support this bill.

And, be the voice that I can't be in their jurisdiction to possibly get this passed. You know, it's important for victim families, it's important for law enforcement. And, most importantly, for the justice where all these victims that we have. A hundred percent, definitely. Do you, is there anything else that people can do, like people listening, other, like call legislation, obviously?

Yeah, I would say that was in the most important thing.

If people could eat, call their legislators and just ask them to support 15.95 in Massachusetts. And, we have a list of legislators on our website.

Just a little bit. I don't know what to do. Exactly.

But that's good to have that right there for people to do that.

And we'll share, we'll put that, the link in our show notes for this, and people will have all the places they can go. Yeah, we can even post like a picture of it. Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that.

“Absolutely. I think this is like huge. Like, we are fully like, yes, let's do.”

When we stepped into this case and just kind of started going through everything, I think because we are sisters. Yeah, almost gave us that extra edge that like, we want to help you. We feel so connected to this. Yeah, it felt like Molly was like, we felt like your family reminded us so much. A lot of our family.

Our big Massachusetts family, like we just, your parents just like, I remember in the episode, we're just like,

oh my god, I just love this family and I want them to get just this so badly. Oh, thank you so much. I just, you know, I feel like that, you know, Molly's love signing down somehow. When I started this, it's so interesting. There was a little article in the Cape Cod Times, I live out here in Cape Cod now.

And so this man emailed me from California. His name is Vol Carmen. And he's actually the DNA expert that travels the world, training law enforcement and prosecutors and entrepreneurs on using DNA in the different tools. And I didn't find him at home talking to him. But, you know, he's very nice and really coaching me and helping me really understand the science part, which was really imperative for me to do that. Huge.

So, turns out he was a former prosecutor on the OG Simpson case. Oh, you know. So, touched by, you know, what had happened in that case that that became a prohibition for him. And the tired and California, and he said, you know, sending the articles and explaining things to me, going to meeting you with me, talking to district attorneys to explain the real new ones that seem like YSCR profiles and familiar DNA.

And what is one of these little differences. So, you know, to me those of like, like Mr. Rogers talked about, looks for the, you know, looks for the helpers. Yes, look for the helpers. That's the helpers, and that's, you know, those are those things you hold onto in life. And remember, all the good and the good people that are still out there, because we're much stronger than, you know, these people who are really sick and committed or sick.

Right. And there's been a lot of people of interest at scenes over the course of the past 20 years. Is there anyone on the suspect list that, or anyone on, as a person of interest that you think is a good candidate for this,

“or do you think that it's someone we may be even haven't looked at yet?”

Yeah, I wish you know, I, I wish I could just feel like, you know, that sisterly connection that that's the guy. But there's so much, for example, circumstantial evidence. There's so much. Some particular people that have been out there in the media. And, you know, they probably thought, wow, the guy that was just someone that happened to go smoke a cigarette at before he went to work or after he dropped off, you know,

his mother in a point where there's something and saw this voice side there and then came back the next day and grabbed her.

You know, you know, I, I, I'm never really been able to identify the guy in the white car.

You've never come forward. So could he be Rodney Stanford? Could he be Joe, Joe Bethelney? Could he be, you know, any of the, of the number of other people that have been brought up? Right.

Possibly because we know witness, you know, testimony is kind of tricky. And my mom, you know, saw the guy, but, you know, it's hard to say that's the guy that's the guy that's something in the guy. They always like the guy. Yeah, they all do in some specific way. It's true.

It must be so frustrating, too, because I'm sure you get this really giant feeling of hope every time a new person is introduced. Mm-hmm. Absolutely, I do. And, you know, you just, you know, you try to make sense of who, who would, um, how would they exist after? Who, you know, who could possibly do this after 20 years and just sit, you know, what are they doing now?

“I mean, that, I think what gives me the most anxiety is where is this guy and what is he doing?”

If he's in jail, great. If he's dead, great. If he's one of those guys and he's either dead or in jail, then, okay, but we knew it. And so it's hard to rest, you know. Oh, I can't imagine. No, that. And, um, you know, I, I wish I, I wish I could, you know, know, I, you know, we talked about psychics.

And I did running through the woods with these psychics. And, I mean, I didn't know if I was going to find my sister's body or something.

You know, it was so terrifying, but you didn't know what to do. And you're just trying to do something. Um, but, you know, no one's ever been able to say exactly and point into the evidence. I mean, I've worked with some really, really great psychics.

“I think our, you know, meaning well in an offensive, but still has not been able to break down, you know, who did this?”

And, you know, I tried every avenue for sure. I mean, we put up billboards. We've taken out ads in newspapers, we've put up posters in 351 towns. And that's two of them, you know, I've actually hired producers for documentary YouTube movie video. So, so that I could keep my, you know, parents story and, and sort of a summary on the story and be able to share it because of the time lapse and people not emails, necessarily remembering what happened.

So, you know, we've tried everything and, you know, the results of the familial searching and across the country. I just felt phenomenal and really hopeful and, you know, that even the genetic community we're doing.

“Yeah, it's just, I'm just so hopeful that Massachusetts will really grab onto that and demonstrate, you know, the leadership that they should be having in this field, I think.”

Yeah, because it does feel like it's like, it's like right there. Like it could be hidden in there somewhere, why are we not doing this? I mean, the stuff I'm doing in California is unbelievable. Yeah, I mean, we have this controversy right now with you. This is why us here with, um, and, um, come of it, just like attorneys are keeping what blitz. So, forensic lab and Massachusetts was calling rogue lists, but I would, I would probably just call them unregulated.

Yeah. And, so they would get like a profile bath, you know, they might get a crime scene, um, DNA or or sometimes they look very, um, they eat, they're using voluntary DNA. You know, putting it through the lab, it doesn't have a hit, and they're keeping the profile, um, preferably. I'm not really supposed to do that, but they're saying nothing claim that they can't do that.

And, first of all, counting was able to solve a case, um, with premise and working together on that.

So, you know, you're saying it's why you see how many gives you father's son profile, so it's a little more limiting. But, and so if you did like, like, if you, like, if I was in charge of the world or the, you know, you do the first, first, code is or, right, and then you do the semester. So that's going to catch the wire, and that you actually don't need the wire, so far, if you do the familiar kind of negates it. So, but I mean, if they're not encoded, I mean, you know, there's value to it, it's just regulated.

Orange County uses it in California, and they basically will, like, let a guy off on a misdemeanor. If he gives them their DNA, and then they catch them profile rates, you know, three months later. And we may be dealing with those probably different populations. And, like, out there and stuff on them, you know, it's just an effective tool, and certainly has demonstrated the effective here.

“And I think that maybe is just maybe a separate bill that needs to be, um, comfortable or differently.”

But I always try to explain it because, you know, it's on the news and sometimes the reporters don't go into the whole story of what's really happening here.

And, you know, I get why that the behaviors are doing it. Again, they want to follow these 8000 breaks that are backlog that the labs. They're definitely committed to getting the bad guys up the street. It's just, you know, you know, again, I think we just need to update our 22 ELR and make these, you know, changes to our protocols so that we can do these tough and, you know, have these tools. And people have them definitely one of the things that we actually talked about in our episode was at the old sawmill campground that you guys use the ground penetrating radar.

And I didn't really see any update on that after like 2018 was that any did anything like useful come of that or anything at all. So that was a good one. So I, you know, have worked with a number of different private investigators over, you know, since I guess when my father had a stroke, I kind of took over the investigation in 2007. I worked at different, a couple of different ones, bringing different people forward. We had a volunteer in our foundation who, you know, was volunteering in 2003 when she was getting her degrees and criminal criminology and trying to fix them stuff like that.

You know, a few years before that ground penetrating car thing happened and she was trying to help me because I, you know, again, I'm like running out of ideas.

Okay, I put up, you know, posters, I put up as I put up, you know, all these things, what, what else can I do? And so we came up with an idea of doing a tip campaign and she was going to use her students from college where she taught to collect the tips and then we've sort of organized them and then to send them to the police.

“And so that's how this serve personal interests serve came forward. The piece sort of identifies these tips campaign.”

Because of that, these felt really strongly that there was a car in this camp zone. So, he arranged with someone from the University of Connecticut to come out and use the ground penetrating radar. However, our state police were not involved in it. I was at my daughter's to just start in college orientation. And so we were, you know, I was available and it turned into service media circus.

And I was kind of a person who's supposed to be like, you know, I like to work with the police, you know, again, I recognize all the issues. I'm literally have a book ready to publish on my relationship with the woman from how it's infected my way. Oh, well, congratulations on reading your book. That's a part of the book. I still try to work with them. I try to encourage best practices and have the hope that this institution is going to, you know, someday get the concept here.

That's great. I could do that lightly enough. So I was kind of upset that she, you know, had it turned out this way. And so I was like, let's see some of this. I don't want to do that anymore.

And just kept pushing. She ended up having a, um, a tough conference without my, my, our, our knowledge. Oh, no, no, no. It says so it really, and I was like, you're, you've crossed my boundaries now. Yeah, absolutely. Let's stop this now.

And so I never found out what happened with the car.

I don't think I'm certain that the police could get that information. And they aren't, we're so irritated and so close to like, challenging her. But, um, it never, so I don't think that there's anything to the campground or the car. Okay. That makes sense.

Yeah. I'm streaming. Yeah, and then she wrote a book after. Oh, my goodness. Oh, I can't.

That is not okay. You know what, you know, it would have been fine if you've done like a case study on my own. Yeah, you can't.

You have the education to do that, but you put my parent's features into the book.

And like put herself into our story like she was part of our life. Oh, no. Oh, that.

“That honestly like gives me like a pit in my stomach.”

Yeah, I was going to say my stomach just was so gross. Literally, like you wrote that. I'm all in the book. Like you read the book. Holy smokes.

Oh, hey, that's, see, that's the thing. That's a frustrating. Like, yeah, I was going to go through that. Yeah. Very good.

Very violent. Yeah. That's the big violation is what it feels like. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. Very, very much. Oh. Oh. Yeah.

I mean, that's where that went. So I'm kind of just doing this on my own, but. So a piece of these, you know, podcasts, updating about the case and, and, you know, the work that we're trying to do to keep it going. And, you know, I'm not sure what I'll have to do after this bill, but I'm sure there's more work to be done too.

And, you know, I was talking to a producer the other day. And I said, if I told you, that I was in a relationship with someone who, you know, pathway to me and projected and, um, you know, and I kind of gave us some specific situations that happened. And he said, well, I would do an abusive relationship.

“And I said, what if I posted a chat with a state policeman within a man?”

Oh, my god. That was the perfect way to do this. That's awesome. - Awesome, you know, all the drop. - Oh, yeah. - Oh, like, I was like,

all taught us that 'cause that changed things or. - Look, and I told her I said, and then I'm a weight woman. With a sister who's blonde and blue eyed and we know the space is getting more intense and yeah. - And I have, and I have a doctor, I'm educated.

And I'm still treated this way. - Yeah, so bad. - And my father was in law enforcement. He was a probation officer. - Right. - So there's a, you know, they're a little nice about my death. But, you know, if they're treating me this way,

- Yeah. - You know, absolutely.

“- That's, I think, for probably a lifelong work”

that all of us victim family members are pushing and sort of trying to figure out how to get our points across and get them to understand our perspective without doing sort of label the crazy victim family members. - Of course, great.

- Well, and I feel like that's something we can all take from Molly and who she was and who, you know, you knew her as and who everyone who knew her new her as, which is like empathy, caring about the world, caring about other people, like putting yourself

in somebody else's shoes. - This is what everybody should be learning is like, it's not just about mine. It's about everybody else's too. - You know what, it's like B Molly and art class. - Yeah, exactly.

- Right. - That should be a pretty thought. - It should.

- I'm so happy you shared that with us.

That made me honestly, like, choke off a little bit. - I know. - That's great. Oh, thank you guys. I really appreciate it.

- Oh, yeah, absolutely. One of the other things that we had spoken about in our episode and I was just curious as to your opinion on this is the Holly Perine in case. I know it's like heavily compared to Molly's case

and some of the suspects or persons of interest were looked at in both cases. Do you think that maybe those cases are connected or what are your thoughts on that? - You know, I think that there is certainly,

lots of room to look at the connections.

“I think that's really incredibly important,”

but I don't necessarily think it's the same person, but I do that, you know, my father used to say, "If you lay down with dogs, you're gonna get police." - Yes. (laughs) - Lots of your friends, right?

- Absolutely. - I kind of think that there's a group out in that area. Again, these generation of trauma, you know, same kind of history of violence, history of family violence, history of beating, history of molestation,

history of, you know, uncle Marion, the cousin, sister, brother, you know, like that kind of stuff. And they're all connected in these weird ways. And that's the stuff I talked to you

and the text is about, because I mean, do you understand this? I know when I walk into your office, it's not gonna be like, you know, like the TV shows where you've got the, all the guys,

the same connecting people, and, you know,

we always talk about that.

- So they really don't even have doubts, since I've talked to each other very early. - Right. - So, even look up a guy, you know, that some, oh, a while ago is difficult for them.

- And then to get the larger perspective, oh, I don't know who it's already. - I have a dog too, so I got it. (laughing) - Dogs are really cool.

(laughing) And so to have those nuances, I know that this guy was best friends with this guy, or there are cousins that are used to, like motorcycles together,

like those little nuances, I am afraid I'm, yeah. - Yeah. - They're not from, you know, more in Massachusetts or service messages,

so we don't necessarily know that, you know, I'm not making these things up, the Smiths are related to the Johnson or whatever, so they don't have that kind of network information. And so that's the stuff I'm afraid you're lost.

And that, those are the key pieces that I think could possibly still, that there's a ties in between Holly and Molly's case. - Yeah. - I mean, different, you know,

these are different situations and how they were abound in a really different time. And again, I'm trying to say, I mean, it's just so easy to want to believe that's one bad guy telling all these girls

in the specific area, the sad reality is that there's a lot of different bad guys and they're all killing different girls. - Right, exactly. - It's like indicative of like a darker pathology

as a whole, right in the community, you know, that like a subculture isn't looked at. - Yeah. - Yep, exactly. Exactly, I'm not so scary.

“And that's why it's so important to continue”

to look for ways to protect, you know, our children and our women and, you know, our society and, you know, scary news stories and working on the place they're in and encouraging the mental health component,

I think, I just, you know, but, important pieces to continue to talk about and discuss them and provide reasons why. - Yeah, definitely, exactly. I think, I mean, I'm sorry, go ahead.

- I'm just gonna say real quick. I think one of the really transformative moments for me was when that little girl and I don't know if you remember

abducted and sprinkled Massachusetts. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And by the way, and she was recovered, I mean,

“all right, she had to send her some pretty bad trauma,”

but she was recovered alive. And I called my mom and I said, "Mom, that was your state."

Because we always when we started the foundation,

we were always like, "We don't know if we're really helping." You know, we don't know if we're saving children. Like, there's no, you know, that is the same thing. Oh, this kid wasn't affected because, you know, Maggie, this helped for me.

I'm going to look to Massachusetts or starting this in children's day or, you know, start talking about child identification kits. So when that happened and my mom did work on the Amber Alert law coming to Massachusetts

and passed headcounty into signing that bill. And so I felt like she needed that. She needed to know that that little girl had been safe because of her work and her efforts. And I think if we continue to do things,

like that, you know, other little girl will be saved. And, you know, maybe we won't have to, you know, experience these kinds of tragedy and trauma anymore. And again, if we continue to look at trauma and understand it and try to support people through it,

you know, maybe things will look differently for everybody. - Absolutely, I think that's like the main message there, right? And also your families, you were such badasses.

- You have done such incredible work all of you together.

- It's unreal. - Oh, thank you. - I mean, again, I think it's just, you know, an outlet to both my sister and, you know, share that well. And that's really all you can do when you're faced with something like this.

- Yeah, it really is. I think kind of just to end all of this, what is one last thing you can tell us all that we can do to help you and your family get Molly's case solved?

“- Well, I think the best thing we want to do right now”

is to go on MollyVist.com and find their messages of legislators and if they're in Massachusetts and reach out to him or her and ask them to support F-1595 to be passed this year. If you're now from Massachusetts, you know,

continuing to share Molly's story, continuing to share the results of familiar DNA analysis across the country. I mean, right now, we only have about 14-15 states that have it in its 50 states in this country. So we just get on this.

It's really Molly's case.

And to, you know, it isn't the only case. I mean, let us send them Minnesota and Florida who have experienced equally traumatizing of depictions in their family and, you know, having these tools are important for all

of us to have in this country and to keep us all safe. - Absolutely. And I think I want to encourage everyone to go to the MollyVist Foundation webpage, which we're gonna link all of these things in the show notes.

So everybody can get to all of this. Also, if you want to read Bill S-1595, I'm gonna link where you can read that too because you can go on the mass legislator.gov website to find it.

But I think this is important. Everybody should know that this is like so far reaching. This is so necessary.

“It's so important that this bill goes through.”

So everybody give your support. - Yeah. - As a true crime community. Let's come together and get this done. - Absolutely. - Thank you so much.

I really appreciate it. - No, thank you. - Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. And everything you shared was just like so eye-opening. - Thank you.

- Thank you. This was such an awesome conversation. - Thank you. I really appreciate it. And I just really appreciate you guys

in your court and your dedication. And, you know, being from Massachusetts. - Yeah, thank you so much. - And we'll absolutely stay in touch. And if anything else that anything else comes up

that we can do to help like, we really wanna help work with you. - Yeah, we feel like very strongly about this case about you guys, your family, about Molly. We would love to push this forward

in any way we can. - Awesome, thank you so very much. I will definitely stay in touch. - Absolutely, you are welcome any time here. You have our number now, so you text us any time or call.

- Any updates will have you right back on. - Okay, thank you. - Thank you so much, Heather. - Take care. - You too.

- Bye. - Bye. - So we hope you guys enjoyed that episode. - Yes. - I think it was awesome. And you can go to the MollyBish Foundation.com

or excuse me, MollyBishFoundation.com to contact your legislators and ask them to support Bill S1595. - Yeah, and we'll put all that in the show notes, so just look at where you look at the details

for the episode and we'll have all those, all the links in there that you can follow.

It's gonna benefit us all, so.

“- It is, and thanks again to Heather for joining us.”

- Thank you so much, Heather.

You were Jim.

- So guys, we hope you keep listening

and we hope you keep it. - Weirrr!

“- But that's over there, you don't call about Bill S1595.”

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