Glennon Engleman: The Killer Dentist

It's morbid, and we got big news for you, baby. We do! We got new merch!

“Yeah! And we actually like it! We love this merch! I'm so excited! We were so part of this merch.”

We were part of it. We were included. They took all of our feedback. It was crazy. Yeah, really awesome. We didn't have a lot of experiences like that. Yeah, but no specifics. Just no, you know, in general. We just had, we really collapsed. There's, there's clothes. Obviously, like, they're shirts. They're sweatshirts. So comfy. Bone cases that are really high quality, might I say? I have one on my phone. And yeah, I love that one. There's pillows. I love the pillows so

much and everything. Like, all those sweatshirts and the t-shirts. One of the things that we told them we said we need these to be very soft, please. Yes, I want soft. And they're so soft. They are. So, you can go ahead and buy that on the SyriusXM store. It's literally SyriusXM store.com. Super simple. Yeah. And if you're an international listener. Lucky you. Lucky you. We won because we we envied you. But, too, because you can get our merch, too. Yeah. You just have to get it at a

different store. It's podswag.com. Yeah. P-O-D-S-W-A-G.com. And it has all the same stuff. Yeah. So, yeah, we got new merch. It's very exciting. We'll be going to come. Yeah, there's more to come. We're working on a couple things. Little, little, little, little drip drop, drop, drop, drop, drop, drop, drop, more of a just release merch in their chop shop. I like that a lot. Thanks. Like, the ones in two obsessed. And then we're obviously still going to be at Radio City still on

June 27th. They haven't gotten rid of us. So, they haven't decided that they wanted to put an actual professional on there. They're still allowing us to come. It's crazy. So, good tickets to that. I got them on ticket master, please, because that's the only place that we said. Yes, that pricing sounds good. Yeah, anywhere else. Like, ooh, don't know. And Debbie's going to teach us a tap. Hell, yeah. Yeah. And it's going to be a lot of fun. It's one night only. Get your tickets.

Specialized merch is it? Specialized merch for that night. It's going to be a lot of fun, too. We have a fun theme that we'll let you guys know about soon. And oh my god, do it. I ordered a dress from I won't say this. I got a sketchy site and I just hoped for the best. Oh, no. I got it yesterday. And it has, you know, like, we both had them on our wedding dress. Those like really pretty buttons. Yeah. It has those on the back. And also the front. They weren't supposed to be on the front.

“I said, who is responsible for this? And why did you send it to me?”

Well, any control was not there? No. And the buttons are like, not in a row. I was like, what the fuck did? Yeah. So that'll be going to be the wish for sure. I sure did.

I was like, the dress looked great online. Yeah. But I was like, I've never bought from here before.

Like, should I try it? I never will again. I will not. It's actually it's a place. You got something, though. That was great. So it must just be like a hit or miss. Look at the draw. Yeah. Some places be like that. So now I have no idea what I'm wearing because the other dress made completely different website that I ordered, which I also won't name, came with a chemical fucking steel. It literally, it was like tool. And there was just like a hole in the tool.

I mean, it was like weirdly afraid on the edges. I was like, what? So I got to find a reputable story. Yeah, you do. Anybody want to dress us? There you go. Gucci. I'm looking at you. You're listening, right? The whole, I have a couple sales associate friends. There you go.

“Party. Let's go. All right. Do you have anything you want to talk about? You should pre-order”

the butcher legacy. It's done. That's still coming out as well. And that's like the countdown is on. Yeah. The countdown is on and pretty much the final countdown. It'll be out August 11th. You can pre-order on butcherlegacy.com. You can get anywhere you would like. Remember, if you pre-order, sometimes you get it like a day early. It's a pretty fun little thing to pre-order, because you get like some little perky perks that way. I saw people last time with the butcher game.

They're like, I got it a day early. And that's my get-up before everyone. It's always fun to get things first.

It is. There's like a fancy special addition that you can get. There's, um, I don't know if there's some copies left, but I'm trying my hardest to make sure I can sign as many as humanly possible. Because maybe she'll be at a place near you. And like when you, that's the thing. I will be going to some places. Yeah. I'll let you know when we lock all those down, but I will be signing stuff.

Much to the sugar and of anybody that's around me while I have to just sign the thing.

“Not me, I don't care. I was going to say because I think Emily has been like Jesus.”

I just hope that the page is for you if I have to. Yeah, they want more out of place. Yeah, there you go. Yes, I'm there. Yeah, that's that's easy. I got you. Yeah. Um, but yeah, so I'll try to sign as many as humanly possible. Um, before we get into the show too, we met a couple of you guys in Salem. And you were so nice. Yeah. Um, shout out to Kathy and her super cool husband.

Uh, they bought us coffee. Um, they were amazing. Which was so nice. And they were having

like a little staycation in Salem because I had the best time. I loved them. And then we met this squad of sisters. Oh, my God. Juliana and all your sisters. Yes, Katrina. Katrina. Carina. Carina. Yeah. Sorry I'm bad with names. The baby. The baby who were talking to me, we'll be in the baby, but that might have been one of the cutest babies I've ever seen in my fucking life. And the cutest dog. Oh, my God. It was the dog Kate. Oh, yes. I loved that dog.

Oh, you were, you were all great. And they were just on a little sister trip. I thought that was so yeah. And then there was a guy on a trolley. Oh, yeah, taking a tour of Salem and he leaned out the window and said, "Ashenalena." So shout out to the guy. So shout out to that guy because we didn't get to actually meet him. But we said, "Yeah." And he said, "Hey!" But the bus kept moving. All right. So I think that's everything. Yeah. All right. Hell yeah. Um, I'm gonna be talking to you about a

killer dentist today. Let's go. I don't think that's a sentence I've ever uttered. No. The only

is this story of Glennon Angleman who I'd never heard of. Glennon. But a Glennon, I know. I like that

“name. I'm just calling him Glenn for sure. Yeah. Because as you should. You know what I mean?”

Yeah. Dave found this one. And he said, "Do you want to do a story about a killer dentist?" And we said, "Yes." Hell yeah, Dave. All right. So it starts on the night of December 17th, 1958. So way back. Oh, in the 50s. In the 50s, honey. But it rolls through time. Oh, it pops off. Yeah. So 27 year old James Pollock just left home. He was headed for a night class that he had at St. Louis University. I would love to do the whole St. Louis St. Louis joke the whole way through. But I

have to say it a lot of times. And I did Google it and apparently locals to St. Louis say it like that. Okay. They don't like when you say St. Louis. Okay. So that's what I'm doing. If you happen to be a local in St. Louis, that does like when people say St. Louis, I'm sorry, but you're not

the majority. And I can only strive to make so many people happy. Here's the thing. Regional dialect

is a thing. Yeah, reminder. And then, too, we literally cannot please everybody with certain pronunciations of certain places. We try so much. No matter what we say, there is a subsection of

“people that get angry about the pronunciation. So we just got to pick one and go with it. I looked”

on several websites and it said, say St. Louis. We just got to say this. And you know what, there's bigger problems in the world. Bigger than St. Louis or St. Louis. It's true. Being pronounced one way or the other. It's true. Just reminder. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you for having me to say. Yeah. That was bigger problems. So James was headed to his night class at St. Louis University, but the next time anybody saw him, he was being chased through the city by an unidentified

gunman. What the fuck? Yeah. That's related so quickly. It wildly exponentially. Yeah. It's about to escalate even more because a little past 730 p.m. Polytulio was driving on fine arts drive near the city art museum. When he came up on a very unexpected site in the middle of the road, illuminated by his headlights, he said he saw a quote, "stockily built man wearing a brown hat and a dark topcoat, standing over another man on the ground, pointing a gun at him."

Holy shit. Yeah. When the lights of the car crossed over the stocky man, he fled down a side street and just disappeared into the night. And this is 730 at night. Yes. A little past 730. So just as Julio got out of the car, another passerby, Dan Holm stopped and both of them ran to see if they could help the man lying in the middle of the street. And what it was clear that he was badly injured, Dan ran to the art museum to find a guard to call the police.

He was still breathing when he was discovered in the streets by the two drivers, but James Bullet couldn't speak and he died just as he was being uploaded into the ambulance. Yeah. Very young. Now as the closest officers to the scene when the call came in, detectives, John Binning and Phil Dwyer were dispatched to the art museum, and they were stunned by the condition of this victim. By the time they arrived, James was a bloody mess. He had two

bullet holes in his head. Oh, and one in his shoulder. And in addition to the two small caliber bullet wounds in his head, there were also six tiny wounds in his chest, which suggested that he'd been shot by a shotgun. Holy shit. And it also looked like somebody had struck him with their car and run over both of his legs. Oh my god. Like talking about overkill this poor man. A quick search of his body produced his wallet, which still had a $20 bill inside.

And he was wearing his gold wedding ring. So the detectives were like, okay, this doesn't really seem like a robbery, but what the fuck is this? Now just behind the art museum, they were able to

running. Inside they did find blood evidence. So that suggested that he had been shot one time

“inside the car and then was able to he got out on foot and ran in the direction of where it was”

bound on the street. And there was literally a blood trail in the snow from the car to the road. Oh shit. Yeah. Other than the blood in the car and his body on the street, though, they really didn't seem to be any additional evidence. And remember, this is the 50s. So yeah, like there's not a whole bunch that they're doing at that time. No. But the most puzzling thing to the detectives were the three distinctly different injuries that he had said. Yeah.

Whoever shot him in the head and shoulder was obviously or at least most likely the same person who shot him in the chest, but they weren't sure yet if it was the same person that had run over his legs or if that happened afterwards and maybe it wasn't accident or something like that. So they hoped that his family could provide some insight into what had happened here and they started with his wife of only six months' roots. Oh, I know. Not wanting to shock her or imply anything

super in a various, they just said that James had been killed in an accident and they left out a lot of details. According to Ruth, he occasionally drove through Forest Park on his way to the

“university. So that's why he was in that area that night. But unfortunately, other than that,”

there wasn't a lot that she could do. Yeah. So rather than subject her to the horrible state that her husband's body was in, the identification was done by James's Geraldine, who had been taking care of him since he was young because both of his parents had died. Oh, is it such a tragic situation? And it's like, which is worse? I know. I know. I know. Now the next morning when the news about the murder hit the papers, a man named Lester Rod Wilde came forward and he told police

that he was the one who had run over James's legs accidentally. According to him, he said he was on his way home from classes at the university and as he drove around the corner, he saw a man standing in the road waving his arms. But by the time he processed what was happening, it was too late to hit the brakes and even though he tried to serve to avoid hitting James, he still fell, and that was when Rod Wilde ran over his legs. Oh man. Yeah. It was clear that obviously he should have

reported this when it happened. Yeah. But it should always report that. Yeah. But it was an accident

and he was ruled out as a suspect. Okay. Now Lewis Gola, who had been driving a few yards behind Rod Wilde that evening, confirmed the story too. He said he also saw that man waving his hands and what he thought was an attempt to flag somebody down. And he said he also caught a glimpse of a second man who either appeared to be with Bullock or chasing him. He wasn't quite sure. Which I was like, I feel like that's a pretty clear distinction. Yeah. But I don't know. He said the man was of average

height. He was wearing an old trench coat in a hat and it was pretty difficult to describe his appearance other than that. As he passed the two men though, Gola said that it appeared the second man was saying something to James, but he couldn't make out the words. And he did notice that the man had what looked like blood on his face and in his hand he was either holding a gun or a club. Wow. Most likely a gun given what we know. Yeah. Now aside from a few witnesses who had seen the

second man, there was also a report of a strange incident that occurred shortly before James was

killed. Jerry Wilmering, who was parked by the school with his girlfriend just about two hours before the shooting. He told police that a man ran up to their car out of the darkness and out of just like nowhere and tried to get into the vehicle. Oh fuck that. Shouting, I'm not the one. I'm not the one. Yeah. I'm not the one either. You're not getting in the scar. That's basically what Jerry told the man. He got out of the car and they kind of just like fought briefly before the man ended up running away

and Jerry and his girlfriend just drove home like what the fuck is Jerry is also not the one. Jerry is not the one. Yeah. So would not much else to go on the detectives turn their attention back to Ruth Bullock, hoping that she might be able to fill in any kind of the missing information. And according to her, the couple that met about nine months earlier, they dated for a pretty short time only three months and then they were married. But she insisted they had no marital problems and they were

absolutely happy. She said she couldn't think of any reason why somebody would have wanted her husband dead and she couldn't think of anybody who he'd even fought with recently or had any

kind of issue with at all. Damn. Now at first, she seemed every bit the devastated new wife

that you would expect in this situation. But the more investigators spoke with her, the more complicated the entire picture of their life together got. Because it turned out that Ruth had previously been married to Dr. Glenn Engelman, a dentist that she met while he was still in dental school. They were married in 1953, but there were problems in that relationship from the start. The biggest thing being that, I don't know why this is coming up so often in stories lately. Although he was a married

adult man, he refused to move out of the home that he shared with his mother. Is this like an

“epidemic? I think it might be. It's like the male loneliness epidemic, but it's like the male loves his”

mama too much. It's going on. No, not only would he not move out of the house that he shared with

is it Ruth just like shared an apartment with several other young women who she was in dental

“school with? And she and her husband would see each other at night and then just go their separate ways.”

Even your stomach was affected by that. But I felt like this was like no, or absolutely nothing said. So after I, after about three years Ruth had had enough of this. And yeah, they divorced. She insisted that they parted on good terms. And that's nothing changed, really. Yeah, we were living together to begin with. Well, that's the thing. She actually still continued to see him pretty regularly. Oh, he cleaned her teeth still. Sometimes he gave her money and they occasionally slept

together. So it's really much just like their marriage, but it just wasn't official anymore. Okay. Um, he also even cleaned her new husband's teeth just a few weeks earlier. It's getting really weird. Imagine your new husband, your old husband cleaning your new husband's teeth. Like that's a little bit messy. No. It's kind of giving Reba in. You know what I mean? I love that

show. It's a good mom who works too hard and loves her kids and never sells. So Ruth offered this

“information up freely to the detectives. Like she was like, yeah, I still slept with my ex. I was”

been like from time to time. And like him and my new husband got along clean to teeth. Yeah, okay. I don't know if James knew that she was still sleeping with her ex, but yeah. So everything she told them was shocking and pretty scandalous. Even now, that would be shocking and scandalous. But again, mind you, this is the 1950s. Yeah. And even to hard into detectives, they were like, what the fuck is your rate? You know, like, what's going on? But she took a polygraph exam and she passed it.

So they were like, okay, those are scientific. So yeah, back then they were like, oh yeah, they were like, Ruth's here. So that's it. So I did the circumstances. They thought it was worthwhile to track down Glenn Engelman for an interview. I would say so. Yeah, because I mean, he's still intimately involved with Ruth even after their divorce. Maybe he wanted to get rid of her new husband and rekindle their romance. Yeah. So he could continue living at Mom's house. Yeah, date is wife.

Maybe he wanted to change that up a little or who knows. Unfortunately, though, when they did catch up with him, he would not talk to them. No. Yeah. At a later corner. Mom said no. His mommy probably did say, I don't actually don't really know anything about his mommy, but other than I know I don't fully disappointed. I know enough. A lot of later corners in Questy said, as a result of advice,

“I have been given by my council. I feel I may incriminate myself. Oh, just like, why? Really?”

Well, that's not guilty. Talk at all. Yeah. So that made him look pretty fucking suspicious. By a apparently he did have an alibi. Well, shit. Thomas Johnson, a friend of his told detectives that he visited Engelman at his office around 715 p.m. on the night of the murder. So like, I mean, he was discovered right around that time. He was. Yeah. He said the two would stay at the office until around 9 p.m. just chatting. And they also went to a local drugstore to

get a drink. And they were seen by the pharmacist at the store. And you got to trust Tommy Johnson. Yeah. Of course. I do trust Tommy Johnson. But that being the case, it would have been impossible for Engelman to have been involved in this murder, right? Right. So it seemed that every time detectives thought that they found something that might lead them to the killer, every lead was quickly falling apart. So with no new evidence and no new leads to work from, they went back to

James's personal history, hoping maybe there was something there to point to the killer. But once they started digging into his past, it was pretty clear that he wasn't somebody that you would necessarily expect to get murdered. His supervisors at Union Electric Company described him as an industrious and conscientious worker. They said he was moving ahead in his career quickly due to his hard work and drive to succeed. Oh, James. And his friends were

just a shocked. According to his friend Ed Luzzi, there was something about him that made you want to do your best to help him. Oh, that's heartbreaking. He had such a tragic story.

As a kid, he had already gone through a lot. First, he experienced a physical disability

of that required multiple surgeries when he was young. And then his parents were both killed in a tragic accident when his teenager. Yeah. So that along with his personality just endeared him to people and everybody who knew him best was very, very protective of James. Yeah. So there was absolutely nothing to go on here. So the case was in danger of growing cold and being shelved. When in 1959, a St. Louis lawyer contacted police and told them

that he might know who killed James Bullock. According to the lawyer, his client Thomas Murphy had confessed to him that he and another man Ivan Deckard had been hired by Glenn Engelman and Ruth Bullock wrote to kill James. Jesus. Now, when detectives looked in

for murder and they were only recently paroled when James Bullock was killed. Yeah. And then

“interview with investigators Murphy said that he'd just been paroled on December 1st, 1958.”

One in acquaintance asked him whether he would be interested in taking a hit job. From shot of justice. He just got out. And he said, yeah. Yeah. And soon he was put in textured Glenn Engelman in his ex-wife who offered 12,500 dollars, which would be about 150 k today. Well, for the murder, and they all worked out the details. So the story definitely it seemed plausible. And detectives did even manage to verify some of the details that were

provided, like having met with Ruth and Engelman in certain locations to discuss the plan.

They had also always suspected though that Engelman was involved in the murder, but he had

that alibi that ruled him out as the killer. So this new version of events did make sense. Yeah. Like, okay. This is how that could have worked out. This is how he was involved. But there was a problem. Murphy changed his account of things, not that long after his first confession. Literally just days later. He said that sure I was involved in the conspiracy,

“but I didn't do the actual killing. And I'm not sure who did. Oh, there you go. It's like pull it back.”

What? Pull it back then. And then Ivan Deckered the man who he originally said he did everything with was just as unreliable and his details changed all the time too. Now the other issue is that by the time investigators had caught up with Ivan Decker, the second man involved, he was already in jail for a robbery where two police officers had been shot. Oh my god. And Ivan's partner in the robbery had also been killed. Holy shit. So he was facing very serious charges for the robbery and the shootings.

And it was clear to the detectives that he was hoping to use what he knew about the James Bullock case as a bargaining show to get away from sentence. So it's all super messy now. Yeah. So because of all the inconsistencies and just the straight-up mess, they were looked at as unreliable witnesses and the prosecutor declined to bring the case to a grand jury. So now with their best lead having fallen apart and nothing new to go on, the detectives just had to shift their attention to more

pressing matters. Now in the years after James's death, Ruth eventually collected a very large insurance payout from his life insurance. And she kind of just went about her life. When the judge gave his ruling in the insurance case, he said the death officially remains a mystery and whether the mystery will be solved to the satisfaction of the state criminal law is another mystery and another of itself. Well, damn, let me say the same mystery again. Yeah, mystery. Now Glenn Engelman meanwhile

just continued growing his dental practice in St. Louis. Oh good. He got married a second time to a woman named Edna. All right. They seem to live a quiet life, but behind closed doors, everything was very awful. He was having extramarital affairs. He would fly into violent

rages at any kind of inconvenience and he was always directing his anger in his violence at Edna.

Thanks finally came to a head in 1965 and the marriage broke down completely. When Engelman

“literally threw her out of the house, like physically threw her out of his home. Was it his mom's house?”

Probably, who even knows? He sounds like such a loser. He is a loser. So he physically threw her out of the house and then just tossed all her luggage and everything that belonged to her out at her. As she was just trying to get out of there. Later Edna would tell her brother that was just the last of many violent altercations that she experienced with Glenn and at one time she said he even tried to kill her with an overdose of barbituics. Holy shit. Yeah. Eventually,

within a decade or so the activities of Glenn would have be of interest to a great many people. But until then, he was just another suspect in a case that sadly a lot of people had forgotten about by then. But then, on the afternoon of September 5th, 1976, a woman named Carmen home in her husband Peter, they were on the way to a car show in Pacific Missouri. When at some point,

they stopped paying attention and finally realized that they'd driven past their destination.

According to Carmen, rather than just turn around and go back, Peter said that he wanted to stop by a state park to check out some of the local caves. So they parked their car and they started walking to the woods and the direction of the caves. They stopped briefly just to talk at a little pond, take in the scenery. Just, you know, having a nice little afternoon hike. But then suddenly there was a loud bang and Peter fell to the ground bleeding out of absolutely

nowhere. What? So Carmen screamed and ran back in the direction of the car and a local family heard her screaming and ran to help and they flagged out a car and somebody got the police. In her eventual statement to the police, Carmen explained that she and her husband had been out for a walk, stopped briefly and Peter was suddenly shot. But she didn't see or hear anyone else around them at the time. That's so scary. Yeah, like sniper kind of. Yeah. By the time they made

it to the hospital, 26-year-old Peter was dead from a single gunshot wound. Shit, that is young. Yeah. Now back at the park, crime scene technician searched around the woods and found a six-millimeter hunting rifle with a telescopic sight buried under a large pile of leaves just about 50 yards for more Peter had been discovered. They found one spent cartridge on the ground and it had

So they didn't have that to match with the gun. But the caliber matched the wound. Yeah.

“So it seemed that that was the rifle used. In the fact that there was a rifle buried”

15 years ago. Yeah, exactly. So within a press conference with reporters, lead detective George Ice urged journalists not to jump to conclusions about the death. According to Ice, there was a strong possibility that the shooting was accidental. He said, for example, I could have been a hunter who accidentally fired his weapon and then ran once he realized, okay. I mean, that's valid.

Because at first when I read that, I was like, what the fuck are you talking about? But then with that

example, it's like, maybe, but still he did encourage anybody who had been in the area that day to contact police, whether they had seen or heard anything, he just wanted to hear from people in the area. Unfortunately, while several people did come forward and they gave statements to the police, none of them had actually seen Peter get shot and nobody had really anything of value. Peter's parents even offered a thousand dollar reward for information leading to the

“arrest, but the trail still went cold and the case became an active. Now, if the case had happened”

in St. Louis, detectives might have noticed that there were some similar aspects to the James Bullet case. Peter and his wife hadn't been married for very long when Peter was murdered and

Peter had recently taken out a life insurance policy with much more coverage than most people his age.

And his wife was the soul beneficiary. Oh, no. Yeah. But most importantly, just like Ruth Bullock, Carmen Home had a connection to Dr. Glenn Engelman. What are the odds? Not only had she worked for him as a dental assistant, excuse me, in the recent past, but she had also known him for decades, and her brother Nick was still very close friends with him. Oh, no. Yeah. Now, unfortunately, though Peter helped death did not occur in St. Louis. So investigators had no reason to suspect

Carmen of her husband's death or a random dentist who lived 40 miles from the crime scene. Oh, shit. So nobody challenged her when she filed paperwork for a claim on the insurance policy. And just a

“few months after the death, she received $60,000, which today is about $350,000. Holy shit. Yeah.”

So a little moving forward here, a little past 730 on November 3rd, 1977, a bell telephone

operator got a call from a man who didn't give his name, and she could barely understand him. As far as she could tell, the man was hurt and just needed an ambulance. She managed to get the address before the man on the other end just dropped the phone. And the ambulance was dispatched to the house of Arthur and Vanita Goosewell. When the ambulance arrived at the remote farmhouse just outside of Edwardsville, it was clear that this was not an ordinary medical emergency. The front of the house

was completely dark and the door was locked, so paramedics went around back where they found the door to the kitchen unlocked. Inside lying faced down on the floor was 55-year-old Verneita, and she was dead with three gunshot wounds to her head. What is going on? In the living room adjacent to the kitchen, paramedics found her husband, 61-year-old Arthur, just sitting in his reclining chair. He was bleeding heavily from a gunshot wound to the back of his head, but he was still conscious and seemed to be

mumbling something. Oh my god. When the paramedics got close to check his injuries, they heard him say, "I've been shot and robbed. I can't see. I've been shot and robbed. My wife has been hurt. She needs an ambulance. I can't see. I need an ambulance." All that's so sad. And then he lost consciousness. And as he was carried out to the ambulance, he briefly regained consciousness about Arthur. And he muttered the word "two" over and over a few times, before it just passing out again.

Oh man. Yeah. Unfortunately by the time they made it to Anderson Hospital, a short time later, there was nothing that they could do to save Arthur. And he was pronounced dead at 9.30 pm. Oh, Arthur. I know. Now when they arrived at the scene that night, investigators from the Illinois Department of Law Enforcement suspect in a robbery gun wrong, Arthur clearly said they've been robbed and from the sound of it there had been two men. That's kind of what they thought the "two, two, two" was.

Yeah. It also seemed that someone had torn through the house in a hurry, but the longer that investigators were looking at the scene as a whole, the less sense that theory made. Yeah. Detective Richard Barrett said parts of the house were ransacked, but parts weren't. That's an autonomy. In fact, not only did it seem that nothing of significance was missing from the house, but when Verneita's body was taken to the morgue, she was still wearing a ton of jewelry,

including rings and a watch. Give away. And her purse was lying in the hallway not far from her body. And everything inside was still intact. Yeah, that's not a rubbery. And there was also no sign of forced entry. Oh, so yeah. When the autopsy was conducted though, the coroner determined a small caliper weapon had been used in both of the murders, and there were powder burns on the victim's skin that indicated that

the shooter obviously fired at very close range. The crime was not only extremely out of the ordinary for the region, but it was also extremely brutal given ages and the personalities of both victims.

They didn't have any enemies. I'm sure they didn't. Oh. And their neighbors echoed the same

“sentiment with one saying there was not anyone in the community who would say anything negative about”

that. Arthur and Franita, I know what they just sounds who's really do, and they're just like managing their farm together. Yeah. Now, a search of the house and of the surrounding property, again, didn't really turn up anything useful in the investigation. There was no fingerprints and no other evidence found at the scene. One of the neighbors clearance, so Brian, though, did tell detectives that his wife had seen a car pull up at the house around 6pm and drive around

the outbuildings in the back. But he also said that Arthur and Franita's two sons Richard and Ronald came by pretty often to visit or help their parents, so they just thought it was one of them just coming to stop by. Yeah. That makes sense. Right. In addition to everything investigators were learning, they also found out that everyone who knew the couple knew they were unlikely targets for a robbery, because Arthur was known to be a successful farmer at the time, and he was one of the

“wealthier residents of the area. But he paid for everything, even just small purchases with checks,”

and he never had cash in the house. So anyway, you're not going to find anything. That's the

thing. It was like well known amongst the community. Now, at the time, there was no way local investigators would have connected the murders of Arthur and Franita Gusuel to two other seemingly unrelated murders years earlier. It also somehow didn't occur to any of them that the Gusuel's injuries resembled the execution style killings common in mob related to this, like point-blank range back ahead. Yeah. Those connections would come a lot later to everybody shock and horror. But until then,

the case was treated as a straightforward yet pretty rare instance of a home invasion gone wrong. Damn. Now, in hope of generating some leads, the Madison County Farm Bureau offered a $5,000 reward for any information leading to the arrest of the killers. But other than some pranks from

true blue assholes, I can't believe we've always been the shiniest of species. Even back there.

They really can't believe it. We just never got better. Nope. We just got a little different, that's a whole exact different methods. Other than that, the reward did not produce any concrete leads. So while detectives on the Gusuel case spun their wheels, just desperately trying to find anything that would lead them to the killer, the Gusuel's estate, which was valued at roughly half a million dollars back then, which today would be about $2.5 million. It got tied up and

probate court for a little over a year before it was finally everything was finally split evenly between Richard and Ronald Gusuel in late 1978. Okay. Now, by the time their estate was awarded to their two children, the murder case had been shelved and detectives on the case shifted their attention again to more present active cases. But then in April 1979, just one year later, the case was unexpectedly revived when one of Arthur and Verneita's children, 33-year-old Ronald,

oh, was found dead in the backseat of his own car in East St. Louis. Oh, we're back in St. Louis, on the evening of April 4th, police were called to the parking lot of Coleman's Plaza in St. Louis, for a report of a suspicious vehicle that had been in the lot for several days. Now, when they arrived and they checked out the car, they found Ronald slumped in the backseat with a huge bullet hole in his chest. Oh, no. Upon examination, the coroner determined that his body had been in the lot for at least several

days. And while the gunshot wounded his chest was the cause of death, he also suffered a skull fracture from a blunt force injury. And there were also several scratches along his back, which the coroner believed had been caused by the body being dragged. What? Yeah. Now, given the fact that his parents had also been murdered, Ronald's murder was immediately assumed to be linked. At the time of his death, the investigation into his parents' death, like I said, was out of stance still after everybody

ran out of leads. So the working theory was that Arthur and his wife were mistaken for another unrelated man, Richard Gusoel, like unrelated, who investigators believed was targeted by the Mafia

“after he testified in a case involving the mining rights. So that's what they originally thought”

before Ronald was killed. Damn. Because it seemed, you mistaken identity, in that case, seems plausible. Yeah. But now Ronald's murder called that into question, because obviously one case of mistaken identity is possible. But two, it's like, well, like, why would somebody go back and kill the previous mistaken victim's son? Yeah. It doesn't make sense. According to his wife, Barbara, Ronald was last seen by his co-workers at the Amaco oil refinery

on March 31st or on 1130 PM. They apparently chatted briefly in the locker room as Ronald was headed home, but when he still hadn't returned home for hours later, Barbara reported a missing. When his body was discovered, his wallet also appeared to be missing, but there was no other evidence collected at the scene, and there was not a single witness. Shit. Now later, that month,

pleaded guilty to the murder of three people in an East Saint Louis, and he was awaiting sentencing

“when he made his confession here. And he also confessed to the brutal murder in robbery of a”

young couple earlier that same month. Oh, fuck. He was facing the death penalty in the robbery homicide, and it's likely that he offered up the other confessions to try to get a lighter sentence. Oh, okay. But just like in the other cases, if detectives have been aware of the connections between the victims and a certain saint Louis dentist, oh my god, the murderer of Ronald Guzuel and his parents might have made a lot more sense. But they had no way of knowing that

Ronald's wife, Barbara, had known Glenn Engelman for nearly 20 years. What is going on? And like the others, Engelman offered up a way to help her get access to the Guzuel's money a lot

faster than just waiting for nature to take its course. Ladies, they didn't know that. Oh, no.

So instead detectives focused on Andre Jones and started looking for evidence that confirmed his confession. Now, back to Glenn Engelman. Yeah. By the late 70s, he was on his third marriage to Ruth Jolly, and things were starting to fall apart. Engelman was just as abusive to her as he had been to his previous wives, and Ruth tried several times to leave him, but he wouldn't agree to a divorce. And at that time, it would have been pretty impossible for her to strike out on her own and

maintain the same wife. And she had a young son as well. So she tried to stick with it, but sometimes her husband said things that absolutely terrified her. He talked about killing people or having people killed. His ex-wife's new husband outside the art museum in St. Louis, he said, a man in the woods outside Pacific. Oh, and even three members of a family in Edwardsville. Oh, any of that

sound familiar to you? Sure does. The thing was, though, these stories always seem to involve

women that Glenn had been involved with romantically in his past, and Ruth started to wonder if he had maybe been having an affair throughout their marriage or multiple affairs. Probably. But unfortunately,

“he was even worse. He probably was having affairs, but I think there was a more to it. Even worse,”

it. Exactly. Now, in the late afternoon of January 14th, 1980, a woman named Sophie Marie Barra left her dental laboratory a little before 5 p.m. It was a pretty ordinary day, as far as anybody could tell, except this afternoon, when she put her key in the ignition and turned it to start the car, the car exploded into a ball of flames instantly killing Sophie in the blast and shattering the windows of the surrounding buildings. Oh, one emergency responders arrived a short time later.

They there was no attempt made to save Sophie because, according to Sergeant Thomas Casey of the bomb squad, the lower part of her anatomy was destroyed. Oh, she had been killed instantly. Her death was a surprise to everybody she knew to say the absolute least. But when detectives arrived at the lab that afternoon to start their investigation, eerily, it seemed like Sophie had expected something like this might happen to her. What? Sitting by the phone in her office,

detectives found a pad with the police emergency number written down on it, and call logs with later reveal that she called that number earlier in the day, but had hung up. Oh, yeah. Also, her son Frederick told investigators that his mother had sent something a few days earlier, indicating she thought she might die in an explosion. What the fuck? In fact, in March of the previous year, police had been called to her home when she found a bag full of dynamite and an electric

detonator beside her home. What? Earlier that day, a local boy had seen the bag and opened it up to look inside, and when he didn't find anything that just interested in interested in him, he walked away, and he left the bag open, which luckily exposed it to rain. So when the bag did explode a short time later, it just scorched the outside of the garage, but it didn't. It could have absolutely blew up the house. Absolutely. Now, it was quickly determined that the bomb placed in

Sophie's car was very similar to the one that had been found at her home just a year earlier, and that both were created by the same person, and both devices demonstrated a quote, apparent high level of skill. Yeah. So when detectives looked back at the earlier investigation into the bomb at the house, they concluded that Sophie may have known her killer, and maybe hadn't been entirely forthcoming in previous interviews. Thomas Casey said personally, I thought there was

more she could reveal. A lot of innuendos were made on her part, but we were unable to substantiate

“a lot of them. I think out of fear. I got you scared. Now, as you might imagine, she had a connection”

to a certain dentist. Oh, you don't say. At the time of her death, she was involved in a lawsuit with local dentist, Glenn Engelman. Jesus. He owed her a little over $14,000 for work that was performed by her lab, and he was refusing to pay it. He's such a piece of shit. He really is. Also look up a picture. Oh, yeah. On the night of her murder, detectives interviewed Engelman for more than three hours, but told reporters that they weren't seeking warrants for his arrest at that time. They did

indicate that he refused to take a polygraph, though, and that they were planning on following up

Worse. Way worse. Really. Because I'm thinking like he's getting all these women to do things,

“and like having affairs and marrying several women. Yeah. What? What? Yeah, I think money had a lot to”

do with a lot of this. Wow. I think a lot of it was just money money money. Yeah. Now, as far as Sophie Sun was concerned, his mother's death likely had something to do with the lawsuit against Engelman, which was scheduled to be herding County Circuit Court days after Sophie was released. Shit. Now, not long after the murder of Sophie Barara, Ruth Jolly, Glenn's wife at the time,

finally came to the conclusion that all of the things her husband had told her about the previous

murders were very likely true. So, in late January after becoming frightened for not only her own safety, but her sons, Ruth went to the police, and she told them about everything she suspected her husband had been involved in. Not only did she think Glenn murdered Sophie, but she also believed that he had killed Peter Hall and several other people. He is so scary. He's terrifying. Now, at first, federal investigators were kind of skeptical of her story, but at the same time,

“they had to admit she did seem to know a lot of details a lot more than the ordinary person.”

So, they asked her if she would be willing to wear a wire and record her conversations with her husband, and she agreed. Which, like, yeah, that's so scary. I was going to say that, yeah, that really is. Such a scary situation to get yourself into where to have to be involved in. Now, two investigators surprise the recordings not only implicated Glenn Engelman in the murder of Sophie Barrara, but also in the murders of Peter Hall, the three members of the Goose of All Family,

and the 1963 death of a man named Eric Frey, whose death had previously been ruled accidental. What? We have a whole other death here. There's a whole other person. In one recording, Engelman can be heard saying, "I'm $20,000 ahead for to a disadvantage with Barrara dying, referring to him not having to pay a lap to any more." For to a disadvantage with Barrara dying. Wow. Yeah. Now, in another conversation recorded just a few days later, he was heard openly

discussing the death of Peter Hall. On the recording, he doesn't just implicate himself,

but also Peter's wife, Carmen. I'm glad she got connected, finally. Yeah.

Ruth later clarified that Glenn had conspired with Carmen and her brother Nick to kill Peter for insurance money. Ruth told investigators, Carmen was going to give Glenn Engelman $20,000 for his help. This is so gross. It really is, because it's all just about money. Yeah. Now, in time, the recorded conversations between Ruth and Glenn would verify nearly every single detail of Ruth's original story. Wow. Just like he had done in the murder of Peter Hall, Glenn Engelman

had conspired with Barrara Boyle and the murder of Arthur Vadita and Ronald Goose of All, also she could get her hands on the inheritance. Wow. Yeah. She had an entire family killed. She did. Her inheritance? Yep. In order for the money to make its way to Ronald, Arthur and Vranita needed to die first. And as far as murder for higher schemes one, it was remarkably elaborate and unfolded over much more time than things he usually did.

But in the end, it paid off because Barrara inherited more than $500,000, which today would be $2.2 million. Wow. What an nasty bitch. Right. So two investigators on the Sophie Barrara case, not only were the recordings incredible, but they also seemed to close several previously unsolved murders and various parts of Missouri. The only question remaining was, why would a

successful dentist, who never appeared to be a need of money willingly and eagerly participate in

multiple murders? Yeah. Now, based on the thing, like why would you want to be able to that? But based on the recordings and testimony from Ruth and mid February 1980, federal agents were able to finally get an arrest for Glenn Engelman on charges of murdering just Sophie Barrara and Peter Helm. By that time he was very suspicious that investigators were on to him, especially for the murder of Sophie, and they didn't want to give him any opportunity to run. Now, at the

same time, they also arrested one of his co-conspirators in the Barrara killing, a man named Robert Handy, who was a former neighbor of Glenn's in the '60s, and known to police for multiple

“prior counterfitting arrests, just like a local con, now living these lives. Oh, who knows?”

As detectives continued matching the details of Ruth Jolly statement and the recordings to the unsolved murders, things finally started to fall into place. So, got ready to solve this giant puzzle. All right, let's go. So, Glenn Engelman was Ruth Bull, excess ex-husband, the original Ruth. Yeah. And the two were still having that sexual relationship when James Bullock was murdered in 1958, and Ruth was awarded the insurance bail. Eric Fray, one murder that we hadn't talked

about yet because they just discovered that he was involved. He owned a drag strip with Glenn Engelman at the time of his death, which was originally thought to be an accidental explosion in a well

and it was later discovered that she shared that payout with Glenn Engelman. What the fuck?

“Now, at the time of Eric Fray's death, Nick Miranda worked at that same drag strip and his sister”

Carmen, oh, would later work for Glenn Engelman as a dental assistant before leaving the job in marrying Peter Holmes. Wow. In every single case, pretty much, Engel had a direct connection to the

wives of the victims, and it would turn out benefited financially from the deaths. They would always

split the insurance payout. So, was her name Carmen Miranda? It was. That's a famous singer. Yeah. Yeah. So, look at that. I had to double check. No, you're right. Sorry. I wasn't crazy. Her maiden name. Yeah. She was Carmen Holmes. Yeah. That's crazy. Before she killed her husband. Yeah, after him. The only outlier in that respect, like of him knowing all the wives and benefiting from the insurance payout was Sophie Brera, but obviously in that case, his death was essentially

wiped away and you'd have to go to court. So, in March 15th, 1980, Glenn Engelman, Robert Handy, we're indicted on Capitol murder charges, and the bombing death of Sophie Brera, first degree murder

“for the shooting of Peter Halm, Holmes, excuse me, and 16 counts of male and wire fraud related”

to all the money received from Peter Holmes wife Carmen. Holy shit. At the time of the indictment, Missouri's death penalty was on hold pending revisions. So, the maximum penalty for the Holmes murder for Holmes' murder, excuse me, was life in prison. But the Sophie Brera case, on the other hand, was a federal charge. Yeah. And the maximum penalty for Capitol murder was death, which the federal or prosecutor fully intended to pursue. Yeah. Now Engelman pleaded not guilty

to the charges, and went to trial in the fall of 1980. Unfortunately for him, the evidence against him, especially the records made by his wife without his knowledge and the eventual testimony of Carmen Hallm who testified against him. What? All particularly damning. She had to together on that out of it. No, on September 17th, he was found guilty of the murder of Peter Halm and sentenced to 30 years in prison. And a month later, he was found guilty of the Sophie Brera

murder and sentenced to 30 years with an additional 20 for various other charges. So, that mother fucker was going to spend for her in prison. But he was still facing a potential trial for the murders of Arthur, Verneeda, and Ronald Gusowell, and a possible death sentence if he lost that trial. He eventually decided not to take the risk. And in 1985, he just pleaded guilty to all three of those murder. Um, murders, excuse me, and he was given three life sentences. Damn.

Now, the previous year, federal prosecutors arrested Ronald Gusowell's wife, Barbara Boyle, just days before she and her boyfriend were planning to flee the country. Oh man, the timing. She went to trial and was ultimately found guilty of conspiring in the death of her husband. A, but the jury determined there was insufficient evidence to convict her of the deaths of Arthur and Verneeda. Wow. She did, however, serve 25 years in prison. But was enrolled in 2009. Damn.

Yeah. So, Glenn and Angleman obviously appealed to guilty verdicts. They always do.

Specifically in the Brera and the Hall murder cases. But the higher courts upheld the lower courts rulings, luckily. Unfortunately, while detective strongly suspected Angleman of being the shooter in the James Bullock case, the District Attorney in 1985 didn't feel that there was enough evidence to charge him and bring him to trial. Come on. I know. They just didn't think that they would win. But he did spend the rest of his life in prison. He died on March 3, 1999

in the infirmary of the Jefferson City Correctional Center, where he had at the time been receiving treatment for advanced complications from diabetes. Yeah. Now, as for why he participated in and even arranged so many murders, the answer was simple. He was a psychopath who frequently confessed to enjoying killing. I was that he just had to live in the only answer because it was really no, it was money. And he had money. So, he just wanted more. Like he was a gree fuck. And yeah,

he just like had to live like doing this. Former St. Louis Post dispatch reporter Bill Brian said. He had no conscious when it came to killing. He said once it takes a certain kind of person to be

able to kill another human being. It always seemed to me that he got some pleasure out of the

planning and carrying out of it. So, he just liked the entire like start to finish planning it actually going forward with it. And what's crazy to me is he was able to find so many, especially so many women that were also completely lacking any kind of conscience. That's

“making sense. Like, how do you find that many people that are like on your level? I think a lot of times”

or I will say like at least in one specific case, Carmen, she was so much younger than him and she had her brother and Glenn Engelman. Yeah. Really hounding her to do this. And obviously, she's at like just as culpable. Yeah. But she was so young that I think she was very easily molded by these two people. Yeah. But then in the other cases, it's like, these women just wanted money. Yeah, I just don't know. I don't understand how he was able to find so many people that were

really weren't like they didn't, they didn't face any justice. Yeah. You know what I mean? It's crazy.

“And it really is a crazy, complicated web. So that is the wild case of Glenn Engelman, the”

killer dentist. That's wild. Also, something that we didn't really touch on, imagine he was your dentist. That's the other thing. Imagine you're just like, wait, fuck, Dr. Engelman? Like, it's just like, what? Clean my teeth last time. He just cleaned my teeth. And then you got, you got to find a new dentist. He just told me I need a root canal with the fuck sad about it. You know he was one of those

asshole dentist, like, shames you about like not being super on top of your flossing. He made you

feel like the biggest piece of shit. Yeah. And he loved it. Loved it. Fuck back. It's such a douche bag. So gross. And it's just so sad how many young people, like, obviously, like, so many people last their lives, but yeah, young people, like, 26 years old, 27 years old. Yeah. And then they're like, Arthur and Vernita, just this sweet couple, like, to make their farm together. And they're son. Yeah. So there's only one member left of their family after that. I can't imagine how he felt.

And to know that you're sister and mom just literally took out your entire family. For money,

there wouldn't be a safe corner of this earth. Let me tell you. No, no, no. Damn. What a story. What a story. Do you have a fun fact as a little palette cleanser for us? I actually do have a really fun fact. Tell me all about it. It's illegal. It's straight up forbidden in certain parts of Washington State to kill Bigfoot. What? Yep. In 1969. I don't know if I'm going to say this, right? Scamania County. Okay. They passed an ordinance, which is number 69-01 period. And this

does like native Bigfoot as an endangered species. And it made the killing of him, Bigfoot himself, Bigfoot, Bigfoot, Bigfoot, or any Sasquatch quote unquote. A very serious crime. And you could be punished for it. They think because they have to protect public safety and they have to protect Bigfoot. Fair enough. And the penalty was downgraded from this, I guess. I don't like that. In 1984, it was a felony.

“It should not be a felony to kill a Bigfoot. It's a misdemeanor now. So it's a misdemeanor to kill a being. I think it should still be called the felony.”

That's a felony. Right now it carries up to a thousand dollar fine and or one year in jail. So that's not enough. Make it a felony. I think it's pretty felonious to kill a Bigfoot. Yeah, that's just me. What did Bigfoot do to anybody? Yeah, don't you dare kill a Bigfoot? What is trying to do is avoid your ass? Yeah, he doesn't want to deal with it. And he's he's the master of it, too. He has successfully avoided us for a long time.

Sure has. Let him just continue to. Let him live. He's just got big feet. That's all. He's ever guilty. He's just a big boy. He's just a big boy. He's just a diving. Exactly. Let him live. Yeah, I love that. That's against the law. Yeah. Where were we? Good for Washington, Washington State. Yeah. Good for you guys. You go girls. We should also consider making that a law. No, let's let's

“petition our local government. Let's do it. That's what's important right now. Yeah, exactly. Let's do that. Let's put”

all our front of our guys. We'll be busy doing that. So in the meantime, we hope you keep listening. We hope you keep it weird. But not so weird that you don't petition your local government to make the killing a big foot, a felony. Just kidding. Just that. Just nothing to do with it. Bye. [Music] [Music]