315. The Random Killing of Theresa Cha

This is a music for your ears. The video is also released on Wednesday with Shopify, which can be used to a real help. The city then has a chance to find a better way to get a better job. Here comes the world's mystery community in the world. Based on the best, Glenkill, a schaaffes creamy. Our chefe is already dead. We will be able to get rid of this. These schaaffes are no good news, they are addictive. You're listening to an ono media podcast. Hey everybody, welcome back to the podcast. This is murder with my husband, I'm Peyton Moreland.

And I'm Garrett Moreland. And he's the husband. And I'm the husband. Welcome back. Thank you for being here. Happy Monday. Happy Tuesday. Happy Wednesday. Happy Thursday. Happy Friday. Depending on what you're watching. Oh, Saturday and Sunday are out. I think I'll be watching on Saturday and Sunday, but I don't know. Happy Saturday. Happy Sunday. Thank you for supporting us.

Thank you for listening. Thank you for watching on Netflix. We love you all. We're here. We're ready to record. We're ready to give you guys another case. And if you're watching on Netflix, I did buzz my head. My hair's gone. Actually, if you didn't see on Instagram, I streamed a live Peyton buzzed my head. Yeah.

She did a great job. It's already grown back, but yeah.

In case you're watching or listening for the first time, this is a true crime podcast.

I love true crime. I husband Garrett hates true crime. And so I come every single week and tell him a new true crime case. He has no idea what we're going to be talking about. So he's hearing it for the first time with you. Again, I love it and he hates it. All my reactions are genuine. I really have no idea what case she's telling me each week.

“I think there's maybe been why's where I've heard the case before?”

You must be pretty good at like, you know, thing naive thinking on your feet because people think you lie about that. Really? Yeah. No, I have no idea what case Peyton is telling me. I think I've also just been doing this. We've been doing it together so long.

Mm-hmm.

I just, I don't know, like second hand nature at this point.

You just hit flow state. I'm just pure flow state every time Peyton's talking. I'm just listening. I'm just eating it up. Yeah. Yeah. So we got, I guess I'll hop right into my 10 seconds.

Well, I buzz my head and I guess that's one thing. Honestly, it feels good. It's been getting a little warmer. It feels good. I don't have to wake up doing anything to my hair. But hair line looks good. Hair transplant work. Yeah. So maybe I'll buzz it again in a bit.

Maybe I'll die at a blonde or something. I don't know what I'm going to do. Bigel shop is getting so close. Thank you to everyone who's been supporting me, who's been messaging me. They asked a tune on social media for any announcements there. Other than that, I don't know do we have anything? Oh, thanks for all the suggestions about days.

“Oh, Daisy, that's what I was going to say.”

Um, no, I was just going to say so many people might suggest about, you know, their dogs having something similar. Um, or what we could do to help her, or just maybe what's even going on. And so we did read them all and thank you so much. I, if you are a owner of a pet that you love very much, you know, how scary it can be when you don't know what's wrong because they can't tell you so. Yeah, it honestly scary. It's pretty scary. But that's what we got going.

I feel like there was something else I wanted to tell you guys, but can't think of anything else. Um, we've just been working. I'm kind of waiting. I'm wanting the warmer weather to come back. It's been a little colder this week. Yeah, I guess I'll end it there and we will hop into this week's case.

Our sources for this episode are oxygen.com, yellowview.org, evergreen review.com. Medium.com, EAI.org, the nation.com, caselaw.blex.com, casemind.com, New York homicides season one episode of seven and Florida Department of Law enforcement. And low key, I've kind of been on this New York homicide show.

“So, yeah, kind of good if you want to go check it out.”

In every single one of these cases, no matter how young or old the victim is, there is always one question that kind of stays with me.

That's what kind of impact would they have made on the world if their life had not been cut short?

every tragedy leaves a hole. But today's case, left me with this overwhelming feeling that the world would genuinely look different if Theresa Chaw or still in it. Now, Theresa was an up and coming author and artist in New York City in the 1980s. And many believed Theresa had a voice that only comes around once in a generation. That she had the potential to go down in history next to names like Ernest Hemingway and Virginia Wolf.

But instead, Theresa's life was taken only days after publishing her first groundbreaking book. Her body was left in a parking lot. Oh, my gosh. And at first, she wasn't even identified by name only as Jane Doe.

“And it was the kind of case that left everyone asking, who was Theresa Chaw supposed to become?”

And how different would the world be now if this story that I'm about to tell you never took place?

So let's now head to New York City to the Big Apple in 1982. So I know, big fan of New York City, something about it I love. If it was a different life, I'd live in New York City. Does the energy? Yeah, I think I love that energy.

I'm kind of a workaholic and so like, something about it just gets me pumped up. So this New York City, 1980s, is where Theresa Hawk, young Chaw, is living like most starving artists in this city. She's trying to make a name for herself or at least she was.

“But in October of that year, things were finally starting to look up for Theresa.”

After many years of hustling and having a love-hate relationship with New York, Theresa is finally fighting her stride in the Big City. She's just published her book and she's about to prove that she has a lot of talent to share with the world. But Theresa's journey to get to this point had not been easy. In fact, the entire 31 years of her life had been one challenge after another,

which is actually kind of what makes her story so incredibly moving. See, backing up, Theresa wasn't originally born in the States. She was born in Busan, South Korea in 1951, right in the midst of the Korean War. And then finally around 1962, the family immigrated to the states with the help of the Catholic Church.

“And Theresa, along with her five siblings and parents, first settled in Hawaii when she was around 12,”

before eventually moving north to San Francisco.

And Theresa had always been a bit shy, quiet, and reserved back in Korea.

But in the States, she really started to come out of her shell and thrive. Theresa not only learned English, but French as well. And through these three languages, Theresa really learned how to express herself. So after high school, she actually chose to pursue the dreams her parents never got to themselves, with her mother and aspiring writer and her father and aspiring painter, Theresa fell in love with both.

And while her parents were professional teachers of their crafts, Theresa went out and actually lived them. Now, Theresa's mother was incredibly supportive of those pursuits, but her father not so much. He understood how hard it was to try and make a living through art. But nonetheless, Theresa followed her heart, and after a brief stint at the University of San Francisco, she transferred to UC Berkeley, where she studied for two bachelor's and a master's degree over the years in literature and visual arts.

She fell into a tight knit group of artists and poets, which was actually how she found her way to her future husband, Richard Barnes, they met in a Berkeley drawing class.

But despite living the All-American life, Theresa never lost sight of where she came from.

UC Berkeley was a breeding ground for many grassroots efforts. People who were trying to bring more global attention to the importance of human rights and diversity, and Theresa, as one of the few Asian-American students on campus, found purpose and pride in supporting this sociopolitical change. But her preferred form of self-expression was never through protest, as you might guess it was through her writing and her art.

She wanted to move out of the Bay Area and follow many of her friends as well as her boyfriend, Richard,

“who was an aspiring photographer at the time to New York City.”

And it was there in the 1980s that Theresa felt her dreams were within reach. I feel like anything in that industry, like photography, videography, trying to be a producer actor, anything in art is extremely difficult. Oh, so true. I mean, like, trying to become a famous actor, trying to become a like, we're now in our known producer, videographer, whatever it is, it's a go right. Yeah, especially in somewhere as big in New York City, 100%.

So she was surrounded by a progressive like-minded community in Theresa felt like she could stay true to her work in New York.

“But life in 1980s, New York was an exactly glamorous, especially for starving artists who were trying to find their way.”

The crime rate at this point was high financial opportunities were low, and yet there were a lot of construction projects completely changing the landscape of the city. Some of them under the purview of organized crime, which had a stronghold over New York at the time. Still, it was this vast and loose lifestyle that drew Theresa and Richard in. And when Theresa arrived in New York in August of 1980, she got a job working as an editor and a writer for the tan and press. And then by 1981, she began teaching a video art class at Elizabeth Sutton College while also working in the design department at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.

Yeah.

“So it's a lot of work, again, like you said, she's grinding, but Theresa never let it slow her down.”

And she didn't let it get in the way of her relationship with Richard, either.

In May of 1982, they finally tied the knot. But after two years in New York, Theresa had kind of formed this love hate relationship with this city.

She wrote how "having to sacrifice her own ethics and morals to survive in New York was, quote, an all honesty disgusting." Though I wonder if Theresa felt like that was starting to change or at least pay off by the fall of 1982. So by late October, after these long years in New York, Theresa was finally catching her big break. The publishing company she used to work for agreed to publish the book that Theresa had spent years working on. It was called "Dictate." It was a genre-bending collection of poems and photography collages that tell the story of different women, both fictional and real.

From the Greek goddess's Persephone and Demeter to Joan of Arc, to a Korean Revolutionary named Yugwansun, to Theresa's own mother, and even herself, needless to say the book was niche and edgy and had already received plenty of buzz even before its publishing date. The themes focused on everything from finding a voice to patriotism to exile and identity. There was one later write-up I found from January of 1996 that really contextualized the book for me. It said, "The book enlarges the notion of what a book even is, because it is forming as we watch, listen, read, because it is fragile, fierce and indelible."

Now, of course, Theresa knew it would take some time, even if the book took off before she could eventually quit her day job and become an author. Though she was excited nonetheless, it was absolutely worth celebrating. So, on the morning of November 5th, 1982, 31-year-old Theresa kissed her husband Richard goodbye at their apartments on 247 Elizabeth Street in Soho. She went to work for what she believed would be just another day at the Metropolitan Museum of Art on the Upper East Side. Now, meanwhile, Richard spent the day working on the project that he was getting paid for.

Photographing the renovations on the book building in Lower Manhattan, just a block or two from their apartment. And the two had plans to meet up later after work when Theresa was done with her shift. So, she told Richard, "Okay, after work, I'll just come to your office at the book building."

She tells him, "But first, I do need to run an errand."

So, after leaving the Met around 3pm, Theresa goes to Lower Manhattan and close to the puck building to meet up with a gallery owner named Kenji Fujita.

So, sometime before 5pm, Theresa walked out of the gallery onto the New York City streets. In a red beret, gloves and a leather coat, hearing a red shopping bag from the Met. And she headed in the direction of the puck building, obviously ready to meet up with her husband for a celebratory drink and dinner.

So, this should have only been a 15 minute walk, but 5pm came and went and Richard said she never showed up.

So, he did wait a bit and eventually figured, "Okay, maybe I just missed her, maybe something came up." So, he decides to head back to their apartment, only Theresa wasn't there either. So, he called a few of their friends to see if anyone had heard from or saw Theresa, but he had no luck. That's like my worst nightmare. Like just thinking your spouse or significant other someone you love is should be home in like 10-15 minutes. Well, they've gone a car crash, whether they got Kenji knows is something tragic. It's like okay, they're an adult, so maybe they're just talking or like you're not sitting here going worst case scenario, but you're also nervous.

I feel like I go worst case scenario.

“I also think it's important to remember that nowadays, if something like, if plans change, we expect someone to get a hold of us right away, like a text, even a call, but...”

It's a good point. In the '80s, before like having someone on demand, their communication on demand, if you were like having to find a phone and make sure the other person was near the phone you were calling,

it was probably a lot more normal till just not here from someone and be like, "Yeah, I'll hear from them when I see them next. Something must have came up."

It's such an interesting concept because obviously we have different age ranges of all over the list of the podcast, but yeah, I guess I grew up in a time where, yeah, I mean around high school, everyone, I mean not everyone, people started getting phones, you know? And yeah, you just told people, "Hey, I'm late. Hey, what's happening now? It's just... it's what you expect." But things like an elementary school, you make plans with your friend that day, like, let's play. And then you call after school, but their parents already had plans, and so they picked them up and left, the house, and you're calling their phone.

You're not thinking, "Oh my gosh, my little friend got kidnapped. You're thinking, "Oh, they're not home. I'll ask her tomorrow. I see a good way." You're not having a home phone, like, we don't have a home phone, but I grew up with a home phone. Yeah, that's crazy. So I remember my number. I did too, actually.

I had to tell her my friends.

“So Richard is like, she's obviously not here. She probably got caught up, so I'm just going to go out and get drinks,”

and she'll probably be back later at the house. It's eighties, there's no cell phones. I'm just trading, but this isn't enough to alarm him yet. However, when Richard got home later that night, and Theresa still wasn't home, that's when he panicked. Yeah. Little did he know.

There was a crime scene already underway, only a few blocks away from their apartment. So let me rewind the clock just a little bit, but this same day, around 715 pm that night. While he's getting drinks with his friends at the bar, hoping that Theresa will be home when he gets there,

“someone calls the police to say that they had just found the body of a woman.”

Lying in a parking lot on Elizabeth's street in Soho. Now when investigators arrive, they see that her pants and her underwear are pulled down around her knees. Oh my gosh. Her scarf and belts are wrapped around her neck, and she's missing a shoe. She appears to have been beaten on the back of the head. Oh my.

By what they're presuming to be a baseball bat. Holy. But one thing is for certain, this woman is no longer alive. So police categorize this as a dump job, meaning somebody left the body here, but the crime appears to have taken place somewhere else, and they also can't find this woman's identification.

All they can tell is that she's late 20s to early 30s and she's Asian, which is why they give her the name Asian Jane Doe. But there's something else they know about her. It looks like she fought back because her hands do have some injuries, including one on her ring finger,

And at the same time, the medical examiner is coming to some of their own conclusions.

“Like the fact that this Jane Doe was killed within just a few hours of her body being found,”

and that while she had injuries to her head, her actual cause of death was likely strangulation. Consistent with the scarf and belt that was found around her neck. Now, police have no idea what they are in for at this point. With no idea, they don't know if this woman is even from New York, or if she's just a tourist who's visiting. They're thinking this is going to be a tough one to crack. We're going to need to go through fingerprint databases, probably comb through tons of dental records,

which is a daunting task in New York City, and we'll only bring results if she lives there. Though after a few hours, it becomes clear that police actually won't need to do any of that. Because around 2 a.m. that night, Richard Barnes arrives at the police station near his apartment and says, I just, that is so sickening. I go to the police station and then they have to look at you and go. We just found a body and he just found her body.

Like we found your wife's dead body.

“He shows up to the station at 2 a.m. and says, hey, I'm looking for my missing wife.”

Richard tells the police about his day. He's like, we were supposed to meet up with Teresa at the Park Building.

We were supposed to go to dinner together, but she never showed.

He thought that she had just gotten caught up at work. She couldn't get a hold of him. So he went and got some drinks with friends, but when he returned home later and she still wasn't there. Well, now he is here at the police station. So they asked Richard if he remembers what his wife was wearing when she'd left the house that morning. And then they actually show him a polaroid of the body.

They had found that night from the crime scene. No, like, I, I, I, I mean, I guess it's your quickest way. But that would just be absolutely horrific. Richard sees the polaroid and that's when their Jane Doe is officially identity as Teresa. At 6 a.m. that morning, now November 6,

Richard has to make the worst phone call of his life. He dials Teresa's brother, John, and tells him, hey, your sister has been found murdered and cold blood. But just because Richard reported Teresa missing doesn't necessarily mean he's off police's radar. As we know, one of the first people police try to eliminate is a spouse or someone close to the victim. And as they dig a bit, they find that Richard and Teresa were having some ups and downs.

Mostly due to the financial strains of their chosen careers. There were even a few times where they broke up completely over it.

But they always made up and got back together again.

They also found it a bit strange that Richard would have gone out with friends rather than just wait at home or even go to his wife's workplace to see if she was still there. But ultimately, there's really not a whole lot this stands out about Richard. Richard, for starters, things were starting to look up for the couple, again, both professionally and financially. Richard told the police how Teresa had just published her first book a few days ago.

And it seemed like it was going to be a big one. It was really going to help her career. He doesn't have any defensive marks or wounds on his hands that would indicate that he had been in a violent struggle recently. Plus, his account seemed to line up with what other detectives are finding. And Teresa was seen at work that afternoon and left around three.

And then she was confirmed to be at that gallery meeting Kenji afterwards before leaving some time between 430 and 5.

From there, she was on her way to the puck building to meet Richard and then never showed.

“So, they're wondering was she intercepted by someone?”

Did she take an unusual path that she'd been stalked? There's a lot of questions, including a new one that Richard actually brings to the detectives attention. Teresa was missing some personal items when her body was found. That day, you remember, she was wearing a red beret in gloves and carrying a red bag from the met. But those items weren't found at the crime scene and then there's also the matter of the missing wedding ring.

Why would a husband still his own wife's ring if he killed her? So after a day or so, Richard wasn't looking good as a suspect in this case, and police hadn't necessarily ruled them out entirely, but they did use the tip he gave them about Teresa's missing clothing. And with that, they went looking for the sight of Teresa's attack, hoping it would be nearby, hoping to find more clues. Now, police feel confident that Teresa wasn't murdered in the parking lot she was found in for two good reasons.

And two, the timing of Teresa's death had to have been sometime between 4.30 and 7.15 pm, which means a lot of people were out on the streets of New York walking.

I was going to say this seems like a time that we don't get murdered. Right. I mean, it was midnight or 2am. Yeah, you're in a parking lot that's it's open, like it's not a closed off parking lot would have been really hard to pull off a murder in that busy of an area.

So the next natural place for them to look is this spot that Teresa was obviously walking towards the puck building to meet her husband.

“Now remember, Richard was photographing the renovations the building was undergoing at the time, which meant a lot of construction and presumably not a ton of people walking around inside the building.”

So a day or so later, search teams are actually dispatched to the puck building, along with K9 units. And shockingly, one of the dogs does pick up a scent in a basement area. And from there, it leads them to the pump room where the dog starts having an even bigger reaction, exactly how it is supposed to when it's confirming a scent. But the investigators don't find anything of no in this basement, like yes, this is where she was heading, but there's no evidence must have been a false alarm. So instead, they decide to pursue another angle.

“It began looking for the missing ring that was taken from Teresa's finger. So detectives fan out all across the city, going to pawn shops inside hustlers on the street, looking for her ring, thinking whoever took it was most likely going to sell it.”

And it's a pretty unique piece of jewelry, it's a silver band with a black stone between two red ones. It was the opposite of Richards, which had a red stone with two small black ones. It was custom made, it should be easy to spot, plus they actually have a photo of the ring, which should have helped too. But unfortunately, after visiting place after place, police find nothing of note. However, on Monday, November 8, a lot of the workers who had been off for the weekends start returning to the puck building.

And so the police show up and begin asking them questions to see, hey, did you see her like did she ever actually make it to the building? Did you see anything unusual that night anything around the building? And that's when this plumber named Peter.

“I think I have something you're going to want to hear. And he says it's not going to be an easy thing for Peter to do, but it's the right thing for him to do, because he tells police he thinks he knows who killed Teresa.”

Yeah, he says it's his roommate slash rather than the whole way. So this is what Peter, the plumber, tells the detectives. Look, I live in Brooklyn with my wife and her 31 year old brother and you know, this guy's been having a hard time lately. He's been in and out of jail. So I helped him get a job here.

And he was recently promoted to a security guard, but he says Friday night, his brother-in-law came home acting really weird. His name is Joey Santa.

And when he got back to the apartment, Joey started banging on the door while the wife was in the bath saying, hey, can I use your bath water before you drain it? Now, this is Joey's sister Kathy. So it's a little weird to want to use anyone's bath water, let alone your own sisters, but he was kind of a strange guy to begin with. They kind of just brush it off. However, there's something else off about Joey that night, according to Peter. He's wearing a ring they had never seen before. And apparently Kathy his sister even said something to him about it that, hey, that ring looks kind of feminine.

And when police get the details from both Peter and his wife Kathy, they both describe the ring the same way. It was a black stone with two red ones on either side. How does it work? And maybe you don't know the answer to this, but I'm sure one of the listeners will. And I assume I know what the answer is. Yeah, I mean, if you, if something is stolen, it turned into a pawn shop. They buy it. If the police come in before that's resolved to somebody else, I'm pretty sure the pawn shop has to give it up. And they just lose the money, correct?

I think so because I think it's like crime scene evidence. When are often that happens that like punch or if you like need a warrant for it? Yeah, I don't know. Or if you just have to give it to police.

They're like most people would just give it to police because probably if they're like I don't want to.

Like this is was used in a murder, you're really going to be like, huh? So would you just like imagine you pay like two grand or something for something? And then you don't get to resell it. Yeah, you just don't get it. Yeah, maybe they buy it. I don't think so. The police, but here you go. They call their boss. Hey, but I'm going to need you to make some room in the budget.

“It's a thousand bucks. You know, yeah, I think they have to give it to you. Okay, crazy. So this is what he's talking police like, yeah, that's the same ring.”

This is huge for police, right? They go to the place where she was supposedly going. And a guy comes forward saying, hey, my brother-in-law is the security guard. He was acting weird and he had this ring and it ends up being the same description.

So police looked deeper into Joey and they find a couple other details that raised red flags.

Like the fact that Joey was seeing carrying around a red met bag that Friday. Again, this is just like the one. Teresa was missing when her body was found. And also that he was supposed to go to work the following day on Saturday, but he knows showed. Nor did he come back to the apartment later that weekend to sleep. But what he did do was steal about a thousand dollars worth of jewelry and belongings from his sister and brother-in-law and then took off.

So obviously, when Peter goes to work on Monday and detectives are there saying, hey, a girl went missing on her way here and then turned up dead in a parking lot.

“He's like, oh, yeah, so my brother-in-law, who actually just stole from me in my wife, was here that night, was acting weird and has taken off and is basically on the run.”

Plus, the timeline of Joey's day that past Friday starts to kind of plug a lot of holes. Joey's boss says that around 3pm that day, he gave Joey the keys to a van. It was being used in the renovation project and he told Joey, you wanted him to help clean out the van before his shift ended. So apparently he did. And then at 5pm, Joey punched out. And this is the exact same time that Teresa was heading to the building expecting to meet her husband. But at 545pm, Joey actually came back to the building and returned the keys to the manager.

This was 45 minutes of Joey clocking out, but then coming back that he's not accounted for. It's interesting that you don't think of that. Like he doesn't think of that when he's about ready to commit this crime. Maybe he didn't know that Teresa was headed to the puck building. And so he didn't even think that police would ever tie her back to this building if he dumped her body somewhere. Yeah, maybe that's true.

You know what? I mean, the only reason police even went to the puck building in the first place is that they knew this was her final destination, where she was heading.

Maybe it was just how it happened, yeah. This is about 45 minutes of Joey's time that's unaccounted for her. Plenty of time for him to do something Teresa per her body in the van, take her around the corner and then leave her in the parking lot. Oh, and even more damning, a witness said the following day they spoke to Joey who noticed that he had scratches and bruises on his arms. And you know what Joey told this witness that he'd gotten into a fight with an unhoused person that night before in the building.

And that he hit him on the head with his nightstick and injured him badly. He said, he actually thought he killed the guy. So an ambulance was called to take him to the hospital. But when police follow up with this whole story about Joey, who's their prime suspect, how to get these scratches. It's an entire lie. There was no ambulance. Especially that night.

“Things to lie about. Do you not think the police know?”

They could figure out where the ambulance is going to go. I rely about almost killing someone as your cover. Oh, my gosh. That's an idiot. None of this is looking good for Joey Sansa, especially the fact that he's now on the run. His brother-in-law and sister, who he lives with are like completely torn against him.

They're like, yep, he had the ring. He's at the, here you go. But when police look into his record, they find some terrifying details that might actually hint at a motive. Turns out Joey has an extensive rap sheet, being a series of sexual assaults from the time that he had spent living in Florida. One was a 67-year-old woman.

Oh, my gosh. He sexually assaulted after breaking into her apartment randomly at 4am. I just, I don't understand. And we cover so many cases like this. They have these insane, I almost had a resumes.

These insane rap sheets, these past of just criminal offense after, criminal offense and they're just walking around doing whatever they want. Also, I don't understand. I don't know where this is coming from.

Like, yes.

“A random victim, that feels one tiny step away from murder to me.”

100% like you don't know this person, you weren't in an opportunity with this person.

You went out of your way to not only break into a home, which is hard enough, but break into a home to rape someone. Oh, man. I just, like, that is so much. It is so close to just murdering someone.

It's just horrible because it's like, saw that one coming. Like, saw this coming. Yeah. So this 67-year-old woman, when she talks to police, she goes the guy was actually polite and claimed that he had asked her

if he could quote, "make love to her." And then he stole a person to jewelry boxes from her home. And then again, this is a pattern because another victim was a 21-year-old female whose apartment he broke into between 930 and 10pm one night. She also told police that he was oddly polite,

said he wanted to make love to her while he held a gun to her head. And then-- Oh, my, what is happening right now? We're still going.

The third victim he attacked while she was taking out her trash

in broad daylight at 130pm. Dude, you're just, you know what? A lot of you know my stance on this. And, Peyton, I disagreed on different things. But get him out of here.

Get him out of here. It's absolutely ridiculous. If you are going to be like this in a society, why are you allowed to live in this society? Why?

Oh, he's going to be reformed. Yeah, he was way reformed. Super reformed. Mm-hmm. I don't know, like, three times.

Like, come on, how many mistakes do, like, how many times until it's like, okay, fine, they're not going to change. And it almost-- Like how many chances do we need to give somebody? It almost feels like this unsaid thing of like where we can almost

use our brains and logically tell the difference between someone who could be reformed in someone who couldn't. Like, I don't know. It's like, unsaid. There's no black and white.

There's no boundaries. But it's almost like you can look at someone and be like zero champ. This guy who broke into three random women and sexually assaulted them just randomly for fun.

I don't know. That feels, again, like escalation. This feels like on paper. This guy is going to escalate to murder. Insane.

It blows my mind. And there's a lot more I can say about it. But hold it in. Hold it in. Okay.

So this victim, the third one that he attacked in broad daylight,

while she was taking her trash out. Yeah. He actually tried to take her wedding ring. She fought him. And won.

So the whole wedding ring thing. He's already done it with one. And he attempted to. And then as we know, this woman, who he's the number one suspect in Theresa, her wedding ring was missing.

So after learning about Joie's past, obviously police are like, we have our guy. I mean, like, how do you? Yeah.

“Anyways, the only thing that's really missing at this point”

is the scene where the crime occurred. This is something that wasn't discovered until a month later. This was when Theresa's family came to town. So around December, Theresa's father, James, and her brother, John, came to New York to speak with detective's in person.

And believing that Theresa probably died in the puck building, they actually decided they wanted to just go look around for themselves. So they go down to the basement and they're looking around when they notice that this one part of the building has a bunch of columns. And they're each marked with a number,

710, 711, 712. Now this strikes John as odd. Because he remembers something his mother said to him right after Theresa died. Again, this is all Theresa's family. Theresa's mother had said to her son, John, Theresa's brother.

That Theresa had came to her in a dream and said to her mother, "I am here and then showed her three number 7s." So like, 777. Okay. Obviously, the mom didn't, she didn't feel like she'd had some premonition.

She was just like, "What an odd thing for my daughter to have been murdered." And then I just so visually saw her dream and she's telling me where she is. And so when they go to this building and they see these columns, 710, 711, 712,

“John is immediately like, "Wait, is this weird that this is where we believe that she was murdered?”

And now there's these three 7s?" It had just been something that stuck with the family, but now was just eerie to John. Especially when a few moments later, John and James are walking through this construction area

There was blood caked all around it and her missing boot and gloves were found lying not to far away.

So this happened to just be one section of a room that was under construction that police seemed to miss. So Theresa's family obviously calls the police and like, "Hey, did you actually search this building because we just found like the rest of her items?" And after processing this new additional crime scene, you feel they have more than enough to move in on Joey because they now believe they found the room where the crime happened. Problem is, they still don't know where he is.

Not until six months later, why do you think they find him six months later in Florida? You sexually assaulted somebody else. He's in Florida, six months later, gets caught for another sexual assault.

“Here's the thing is that I don't know how much need to stress how often this happens.”

Yeah. Like this is not some like, "Oh, this is just like a one-off. No, this happens so much." Oh, not a lot of it. Oh, much.

Which is why I'm saying it's like an unsaid client like, like this type of perpetrator who chooses random victims to sexually assault and beat and hurt and steal from. How many times can you see the pattern before it's like, "Hey, this specific perpetrator has a harder time being reformed than other criminals." I mean, I'm pretty sure statistically sexual assault is the hardest crime to reform

as far as like results of getting out of prison. It is the most reaccured crime from a previous offender. But it's just like, "Oh my gosh, this specific type of pattern we see over and over and over again

where it finally escalates to murder."

Yeah. Yeah. It's just, and I get it. I know you can't.

“It's hard knowing something could be prevented granted.”

You could say that about anything. Well, also you can't just look at someone and be like, "We're guessing that in the future that's so hard to..." Yeah, man, I get it. But...

But also... You're not a hair. You're a dangerous society. I mean, we have a society, we have rules. We all follow.

So, we can't follow them then. Goodbye. So, he's picked up and when the police in Florida hear that he's actually a suspect in a murder up in New York City and he's been on the run and they've been looking for him.

They let the New York detectives know.

“They fly down in March of 1983 with the one thing they believe might trip up”

Joey. And it was a picture of the ring he stole from Teresa. And the moment the police show it to him, he gets all wide-eyed and he's like, "How did you get that? How did you even know about this?" And then he whispers something to his attorney and they shut down the interview.

He doesn't say anything else. So, police are just based on his reaction. He knew this ring. Like, that was enough for us to know that he's our guy. So, they went back to New York to build their case.

And Joey Sansa confessed to several accounts of sexual assault back in Florida. And then he was later convicted of 12 counts total. And sentenced to prison for those crimes in Florida. And meanwhile, Teresa's case is getting ready to go to trial in New York. And in October of 1984, Joey who's brought to a New York courtroom for the murder of Teresa Chaw.

And while he was convicted, that ruling was actually eventually thrown out by the New York Supreme Court due to quote in admissible evidence. They claimed that the prosecution had defied the Molano rule. So he didn't get it. Which is free because of what?

This rule basically says you can't show evidence of a defendant's prior crime

to show their propensity for committing the one they're on trial for. And if you've seen this, we see this happen actually in a lot of it. That is the might be the dumbest rule I've ever heard of. And I know they're trying to avoid judging somebody. Well, someone's past meaning that this is their present.

I get it if it's like, you did something bad. It's not like, holy. We see it all the time. I've got to gather my thoughts because that blew my mind and we're not know that was. For instance, serial killers like Ted Bundy.

He's getting charged in Florida. They won't bring up his crimes in Utah and Florida. They won't be like, also he killed all these people in Utah. That'll be like any of these. That is one of the craziest things I've ever heard.

And I don't know if that's like across the board or state to state.

aren't admissible in court for a crime. I might understand the difference. Like you're getting a divorce or, you know, it's something that's. You still a candy bar from a store. I don't know.

You know what I'm saying? Like low level petty crimes or cases that aren't extreme. But to do it, where we've been sexually assaulted, killed, rape, like hidden app. Are we just going to ignore psychology?

And the past also that that that if someone has a pattern. That is definitely a precursor.

Like if there's two people sitting here and one has never committed murder.

And the other one has sexually assaulted three women. And they're both up on trial for someone who's been sexually assaulted and murdered. Who are you going to pick someone? I need a, I need an attorney. I need someone to explain why.

Because they're trying to avoid prejudice. Okay, but give me a good reason because. Because you're going to have to give me a good reason because this is this is crazy. I don't know if you give me a good reason. It actually is frustrating.

Give me a good example. And if your examples are like petty crimes, okay, then change the law to where it's. If it's something petty or something that's not extreme, then sure. Can't bring it up. But if we're dealing with killings and canapings, rape, assaults, then I don't care.

Bring up whatever you want.

“I'm batch. I'm not. I like here's the thing.”

Am I the only one mind blowing right now by that? Okay. Well, say someone armed, robbed. Armed robbery. Okay. A store didn't hurt anyone. Okay.

Took the cash got caught. Okay. Years later is on trial for murdered. Do you bring up that armed robbery? I'm saying.

Do you? You should be able to but you can. But it's gotten interesting. Like there's no. For sure.

Because in my mind, it's this, right? I think everything starts bone escalates, right? With what, I mean, this happens a lot in. Yes. So here's a good example is common sense.

Triangle law is child sex trafficking, right? It's happened a lot where it'll start with something. I say small, but something that maybe is not is. Your perpetrator.

On the lottery isn't going to its first crime.

Right. Then you'll do it. Then you'll maybe assault somebody. Then maybe you've raped somebody. Then maybe you've done something else.

“Then it also didn't your sleeping with children, right?”

Like it has the link. Right. Yeah. Yeah, raping children. So it's like I.

And that's usually how it goes for majority of these crimes. I mean, you even look at someone like Ted Bundy. He started by. That's not out. That's just cycle.

Let's just psychology. I just don't understand why this is. That's our humanist. I'm just trying to understand it. So someone cleared up for me.

Someone leaving in my comments DM me. I don't care. Well, you already know. It's because the law. No, but I can't think of a good.

Like I can't think of a good reason. Because we work so hard for our courts in our law to be fair. And so this is something that they say in order to be fair to every offender, we leave the past and the past usually. Yeah, I just don't get.

That's not clocking. It's not clocking in my head. And I feel like I could argue with someone all day about this. Anyways, they had testimony from Joey's sexual assault survivors in Florida. Yeah.

So they considered a mistrial.

So Joey's second trial was also considered a mistrial.

And then finally, in his third court proceeding in 1987, there was a new witness. And it was Joey's girlfriend back at the time of the murder. She said, Joey had called her after the crime and said, I really screwed up. And I killed someone. There was also some new evidence like a pair of boots from Joey's apartment back then

that had traces of blood that was the same type as Theresa's. And this time, the verdict sticks. So even though it takes three trials to get it right, Joey's found guilty of second remurder and sexual assault. Okay, so he still found guilty.

I was going to ride. I was getting it. Well, you can retry for a mistrial. How's it related to fight somebody?

“And honestly, the idea of a mistrial is well and good.”

Yes. Because there are times where someone doesn't get a fair trial. Yeah. And we should be able to. For sure.

And I'm very much in agreeing with getting a fair trial. I think that's extremely important. You're just arguing what's fair. Yes. I'm just arguing.

I don't think that that makes it unfair. After five years in and out of court rooms, Theresa finally had the justice. She deserved. Following Theresa's death, her book went out of print temporarily. Though in 1997, with education of Asian American studies becoming more popular, her book was actually brought back to print.

And since then, her book has become a required reading for a lot of college courses on both Asian American and feminist studies.

It is a metaphor of what the world lost and saying goodbye to Theresa too soon and it reads.

Quote. The ink spills thickest before it runs dry before it stops writing at all.

And that is the case of Theresa Chau.

Traject.

“I mean, I think it's part of the reason I hate you crying.”

It's just so sad and tragic that he's living her life. Going home, lightly senseless crime. She dies for family lost people or like a significant other.

It just goes the dominant effect is never ending and I hate that.

I hate that.

“I think it is so hard to hear about cases through crime cases with victims who are killed at random.”

Yeah. Not that like it's any less tragic. It is it's just harder for our brains to fathom that someone can walk up to someone they don't know and commit sexual assault and murder. Yeah. It's just hard to understand.

“Alright you guys, that was our case for this week and we will see you next time with another one.”

I love it. And I hate it. Goodbye. [BLANK_AUDIO]