534 - Think About the Simulation

>> This is exactly right. [MUSIC] >> I'm Michelle McFee. And I've been unraveling the strangest criminal alliance I've ever reported on, a Mormon polygamist and an Armenian businessman.

>> Multi-million dollar house for our ies and Lamborghinis private jets a billion dollar fraud. >> But how long can this alliance last? >> Tell me what you know. Is somebody coming after me?

>> Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the I-Hart Radio Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. >> I'm Bailey Taylor and Mrs. Ikro. This podcast is all about going deeper with the women shaping culture right now. Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work behind it all.

>> As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated.

“So you have to work extra hard in a way that doesn't compromise who you are in your integrity.”

>> Yeah, I like to say I was kind of like the silent ninja. >> Listen to Ikro with Bailey Taylor on the I-Hart Radio Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. >> Sometimes a suspect is found guilty before a verdict is ever read in court. On the wicked words podcast, I talk with the writers who dig deep into the cases that changed history, including Marsha Clark, who went from prosecuting one of the most famous murder

cases to writing crime fiction. It doesn't matter that you didn't take part in the murder. If you were at the scene at all, you're guilty of murder. Every week, the real story is revealed, join us every Monday for new episodes of wicked words.

Listen to wicked words on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. >> When a group of women discover that they've all dated the same prolific con artist. They take matters into their own hands. I vowed, I will be his last target. >> He is not going to get away with this.

He's going to get what he deserves.

>> We always say that trust your girlfriends.

Listen to the girlfriends, trust me babe.

“On the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.”

>> Hello, and welcome to my favorite murder. That's Georgia Hard Start. That's Karen Kilgara. >> No pointing. >> Oh, yeah, sorry.

I was the only one to point to his root. >> Don't you ever stop doing it. >> How are you? I'm good. I'm grateful to have the job of podcasting today.

>> Same. >> Yeah, why specifically today? >> I don't know. It's just a really nice life. >> It has been some time to talk about how it's all.

Don't matter, she's going to be over soon. So how do we celebrate what we have now? That's right.

“I just tell my therapist that when I'm really bomb I think about, if I took a time machine”

back to today, because the apocalypse has happened, I'm going to look at everything and they're like, wow, so lucky to have these things and to be able to talk to these people and to do these, we have a hot dog phone to have freedom to have a hot dog phone. So just pretend you're from the future, yes, which is a dark terrible place. >> Or, you know, we're not or rule of six.

What's that? >> Dark terrible place and five other options. >> Okay, got to do five other options every time. >> Okay. >> My therapist doesn't like this though. She puts her hand up and then goes, this is dark, this is dark terrible times. It also could be natural times.

>> Okay. >> It could be very bright and shiny times. >> Exactly the same. >> It could be like we're all working at Macy's all the time. >> Yeah.

>> Weird but doable. >> I could have a desk job, CB Richard Ellis Investors. >> You could come home and please. >> So quickly, CB Richard Ellis Investors, I can't pay my rent. >> Wait a moment please.

>> Now there's your podcast.

I mean, you've always worked in the voice area, clearly, that's that was your early training.

>> Yeah, and mine was reading aloud in sixth grade, which was my favorite thing to do. >> Oh, you love to be called on. >> Because they would just go up and down the road. There's no way we haven't talked about this. But I would just, I would go pick out the paragraph that would be mine, practice, practice,

not too much, not too little. >> So you didn't know, you didn't listen to what? >> Not a word. >> You didn't do what? >> I was none of my business.

I was on that, my paragraphs. >> That's why that's good. >> And you killed it every time. I was very proud of my reading skills. >> Oh yeah.

>> Nice and smooth. >> No trips. >> Yeah, Janet, every bad thing she did, she fucking. >> She told you to read a real, real good. >> The basics, she covered those basics.

>> Three hats and a cut and a book that you could actually read for yourself.

>> Be birthday.

“>> I just, I just popped a fucking little gift wrapped gift in front of Karen for her birthday.”

>> I'll tell you, listener, it's heavy. It's wrapped in gorgeous, so you wrapping my saw that's from Etsy. I tell them what it is. >> It is a Diet Coke, Ashtray, ladies and gentlemen, it is huge. So beautiful, it looks like hand-painted, but then underneath some clear.

>> It has read the maker on the back. >> Oh, the maker is wear W-A-R-E, your snacks. >> And so she has, you can get that in mind, but obviously it's a potato chip with Chrome fresh and caviar on it. >> Oh, you can get hot dog, you can get.

>> Mine would obviously be. Who are you, who are you Orange County?

>> I don't know, it's just like so, but it's basically looking at something that makes your mouth immediately water or makes your thing go that's my jam.

>> That's your identity, so Diet Coke, a kind of Diet Coke, I saw that and I was like, I have to get that for Karen. It could be a cat jelly, you don't have to ask, you don't have to make up smoking. >> Oh, but I have to, now that you've given me this, you've required it, and I'm going to go right back to the capries, they're thin. >> Oh, sure.

>> They're easy to smoke, ladies and gentlemen, look up, 1980, it's capries cigarettes. >> Oh my God. >> Thank you so much. That's a perfect gift. >> Yeah.

>> Now, I have a gift for you that I realize the last time we talked about birthday gift giving, you were like, it's not my birthday yet, but I was like, oh, just we're going to give each other gift at the same time. >> I like it in between things, because our birthdays are almost a month apart. >> Yeah, so, a month and a decade. >> Yeah, yeah, wow, almost exactly 10 years apart, we're a generation apart. Wow, I think that's the hook at this podcast, no one's caught on.

>> That's true. >> It's like old and young. >> You know what I was thinking about, too, is like the fact that we started this podcast when we barely made each other, so we were getting to know each other at the same time. The audience was getting, got to know us that way if we didn't already know everything about each other.

“It would all be facade. >> Yeah, so I think that's the secret sauce, I hate that term.”

>> Well, should we call it the thousand island dressing of our souls? I agree, and I also think that we kind of knew it, but we also didn't know it. I think we both had that, like we're grabbing hands and jumping off this cliff, which other people wouldn't have done. >> Totally. >> And I think so, there was a feeling of that, just discovering this now, but the feeling of that of like, she's up for this.

>> Right, right, whatever this thing is, just up for it. >> Yeah, I'm game. >> Yeah, thank God, thank God, and that's this podcast. Well, thanks for listening. >> Goodbye, this is our way of saying, we clicked on, we both walked out, that's it, fade to black.

>> Also, just point out that it has been 10 years, but the last time we recorded our episode was almost two hours long, you know. >> So the idea when people are like, aren't you going to run out of stuff, it's like you would think we would. >> Today I'm doing this story that, like, mean some 10 years in and I'm finally doing this story that means so much to me. It's not like, I found the story and like, yeah, another one, it's like they can still be so important and meaningful and should.

>> Unfortunately, there's just a never ending.

>> Yes, there's bad memories of this parade of humans. >> That's right, that's the name of the episode. >> Oh, that's right, I wanted to ask everyone, if they know that we name every episode after some ridiculous thing we say in the episode.

“>> And that's like obvious to everyone, but I was like, what if they don't know that?”

>> So like, you got to find the moment we say the dumbass thing that we named the episode, it's like a little Easter egg. >> Yeah, and then everyone knows. >> And then if you figure it out, we'll send you an Easter egg in the mail, it's the one jelly bean. >> From this last Easter, they smell really bad, but that's your gift, you know. >> You know, when we planned this show, there was all kinds of futuristic technical Easter egg type thinking that we put into it.

>> Totally, we love Easter eggs. >> We're like a video game, but so real. >> I mean, this is a simulation. >> How could it not be?

>> I'll tell you the thing that the physicist said, okay, when I worked on the time travel show and somebody asked that was the first question we asked and he said, it doesn't matter.

>> Come on, that's not what I was expecting. >> Because if it's a simulation, it's so good. >> You're right, we don't know, or we're just catching on. >> But if it's a good enough simulation that we don't know, then that idea that like, I'm stuck in the back rooms. Or whatever people get online about and weird in their head, it's better, it's better than that, go to the beach, and then think about the simulation.

>> Okay. >> Go now. >> Okay. >> Oh, oh, oh, oh, shit, okay, well first, fucking new MFM animated.

>> I haven't watched it yet, have you? >> Neither of us have seen this, and so we thought it'd be fun to show you at the same time as we are seeing it for the first time ourselves.

Our friend Nick Terry, by his own free will, yeah, makes these incredible animations based on some dumb fucking thing that we've said.

>> He's part of it. >> Many so before 78, it's called drama, I mean, let's, if you're not watching it on Netflix, please do. >> Or go look it up. >> And now we're going to watch it for the first time right here. >> It was summer of 2005, and I was eight years old, when we took a family that had been to Yosemite and San Francisco.

While in San Fran, we got a boat tour that took us past Alcatraz, and to some other island close by. >> What is that, Marin?

“>> I don't remember there being a two island stop for the Alcatraz tour, but I've been there.”

>> Alcatraz too. >> It's smaller in a hip-er, and there's a discount.

>> There's an amazing nightlife on Alcatraz too.

>> Okay, my dad was really nervous that I was going to get seasick, so he gave me three Dramamine and we bordered the boy. It turns out that the serving size of Dramamine for an eight-year-old is half a pill, so I was not the fuck out. >> My dad happens to be a fireman, and it says he's retired, now it's so classic. So he walked around the island, Alcatraz, with my sleeping eight-year-old body thrown over his shoulder in a fireman's car. >> So can I just stop here to tell you this, and this is going to be the god dad life thing I will ever tell you,

which is that at night, when we were little, my dad, you could do the fireman's carry, you could do sack of potatoes or you could write a horse to bed. Those are the three ways we got carried to bed. >> You got to pick which one, yeah, that's so cute. >> So fireman's here just bent over his shoulder, sack of potatoes he's holding you by your mind. >> Oh my God, but in the horse, you got on on back, and you put your hand over his mouth to feed the horse and he ran down the hallway and threw you on the bed.

>> Can you do it, can I have that, I know that's all that might be the greatest privilege, yeah, having a firefighter dad.

>> Oh my God, so that's I think this one gets me especially because he just basically, like every fireman's like we're just going to solve this problem.

>> Just back in, okay, so he would occasionally stop and wake me up to eat, I could drink water with my eyes closed. >> My mom and brother took normal pictures and occasionally included me, we can't have birdies, oh, I can see you have a picture. >> Oh my God, oh my God, it's the best picture, too.

“>> The only thing that I actually remember about that day is waking up on a park bench next to a dog wearing sunglasses.”

>> She's awake in it, oh my God, that's her way, she woke up at the end of all that was like, hey, that is the key, yeah, yeah, that's the key. >> See, wow, what a joyful thing to have. >> Completely forgot that we knew what that little girl looked like, that's why the headband was so funny to me. >> It looked like we have an actual photo of her, well that was from Lizzy, originally. >> Lizzy, I hope this is bringing you so much joy.

>> You now have a character in the Nick Terry M. FM animated universe. >> Based off of you as a child, like the real photo of you, God, that's so special, I love it so much. >> So good, I love that so funny. >> I was wondering if your dad was going to throw me over a shoulder, that would have been right. >> Oh, that's right to give you what you wanted, because I was like, can I do it?

>> And Jim's like, no, I only have this one thing, which is the funny interpretation as I saw it. You wrote the horse like kind of like a monkey on his back, so he had your legs in his arms.

“>> Okay, it wasn't, because if you ran down a hallway on your dad's shoulders, I think it's not a limb into the door, but not to criticize after the fact.”

>> Sure, sure. >> Sure, can we add it, can I get that at it soon? >> And if there's a round of now, have this to say, no, Nick Terry, we love you so much, thank you so much. >> Yeah, what a joy, so good, okay, so we do network. >> Yeah, I like podcasts, network, it's the fucking best, only cool people, like you wouldn't even believe it. So it's called exactly right media, here are some highlights.

>> And one of the podcasts that is on this network is called the knife, we love it. Hannah and Pasha continue their unbelievable story of Paul Fonzac, who is kidnapped from a Chicago hospital as a newborn in 1964. In this episode is a dig deeper into his identity and he uncover secrets that completely rewrite the story of his life. >> So wild, yeah, and then over on this podcast, we'll kill you, air in an air in, just keep bringing it. >> How do they think of these things, this time they tackle motion sickness, just to go along with that MFM animated.

>> Right, tell me everything, from boats to planes to the world's grossest historical cares, yes, they break down why our brains and bodies completely betray us and me while traveling. Because you take three pills instead of half, and on this week's, that's messed up.

And their special guest this week is Joker Fisi.

>> Plus, over on ghosted, Ross is joined by drag queen and comedian Juno Burch. And then just really quick, over in the merch corner, the fan favorite married joggers, fuck you, I married, or officially back just in time for wedding seasons. Right, grab a pair for yourself, your partner, or your favorite legally bound murdering outlet at exactly right store dot com. And don't forget, you can watch brand new episodes of my favorite murder and varied bones every week on freaking Netflix.

“>> Here we are, have you seen yourself, have you like been scrolling and just suddenly there's your face?”

Or there's last podcast in the left spaces? >> I came home to my own face because while I was away, my dog sitter put on the podcast video for the dogs. >> Oh my god, right to see if it would help dogs it, we put on reggae because we heard that dogs like chill out reggae. >> Yeah, but I should put my own fucking voice, although the cookie love's been more than me. So I should we should put on his podcast.

>> Yeah, that's right, she's going to be like this bitch is still here. >> Where's my reggae, what to do, tell Bob Marley. >> Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. >> We were God's chosen kingdom on earth. >> He felt destined for greatness.

>> So when a swaggering Armenian businessman had a pulse Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. >> For Ari's Lamborghini's right at Jets meeting the president of Turkey. >> Amishamaki and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracy's I've ever come across.

>> When Jacob met Levant, this went to a billion dollar fraud.

>> But with two kings from entirely different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? >> The largest tax investigation in American history.

“>> You need to tell me what you know is somebody coming after me.”

>> Jacob told Levant, you're ruining my life. >> Listen to kingdom of fraud on the I-Hart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. >> May is mental health awareness month, and your 20s, they can feel like a lot. >> On the psychology of your 20s, podcast, we unpack the anxiety, the overthinking, the heartbreak, the identity crisis, all of it that comes with being in your 20s.

Because if you ever thought, is anybody else feeling this way, they definitely are. >> I feel like my 20s was a process of checking off everything that I was not good at to get to what I was good at. >> Oftentimes we take everything a little bit too seriously and we get lost in things that we later on decide weren't even important to us to begin when there was a large chunk of my 20s that I like was just so wanting to like be out of that phase out of my skin and I just like

really regret not living in the present form. >> Each week we break down the science behind what you're going through and give you real tools to navigate it. Your 20s aren't about having it all figured out. They're about understanding yourself just a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the I-Hart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or whatever you get your podcasts.

>> This season on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler we have some fantastic guests like Amelia Clarke. >> When like young people come up to me and they want to be an actual whatever.

>> My first thing is always, can you think of anything else?

>> Yeah, you can do that. They're big. >> Because for today, do that, Dennis Leary. >> I wake up and I'm hitting him in the head with a water bottle and Bruce Jenner is on the aisle in a karate stance like he's about to attack me like making karate noises. And here's the tie of the Kardashians family over there. Everybody's going. >> And the air marsh is trying to grab my arms and scream.

>> I immediately know that I've been a sleepwalk David O. Yellowwell. >> I love this podcast whether it's therapy or relationships or religion or sex or addiction or you just go straight for the guts. >> Guy Branham. So anyway, Nicole Komen broke up with Keith Irbin. >> Being half of a country couple was always a hat she was going to wear, not like a life she was going to leave. >> Interesting. I like that. Did you practice that on your way?

>> Go. >> [LAUGH] >> Gating moderato from Stranger Things. >> Sanam Moju, Camilla Morone, Carrie Kenny Silver, and more. >> Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. >> Just like great shoes, great books take you places.

“Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget.”

I think any good romance it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. >> I'm Danielle Robe and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club from Hello Sunshine and iHeart podcast.

Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, booktock stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh,

“cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile.”

Listen to bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. >> Brought to you by cotton, the fabric of our lives. >> Okay, you're first. >> I'm first and wow, okay. So I've been studying up and tell like while I put my makeup on to the minute that I left the house. >> Love it. >> When we were in high school, we spent a day or two in history class learning

about Vietnam. >> Right? >> Like, yes. >> The basics. >> Sure. >> Breezed over it, moved on through our lives. This isn't, it sounds like a brag, but it's not. So I was really into the band, dead candidates. And because of that, they sing about a lot of historical stuff. So I was really into that band and then I would go look up the things they were singing about. And one of those things, pot. >> Pot. >> Exactly. I literally was like, "Mom, let's pull pot."

>> Yep. >> Turns out, and the song is called Holiday in Cambodia. So I learned a bunch about it. I was really into Vietnam. I read the book The Killing Fields, watch the movie, and through as a dead Kennedy's music, basically they kind of like made you go, "What is this about? Why would they be singing?" >> Exactly. >> I mean, I would like, they also have a song about it. It was shot in San Francisco.

>> Oh, Harvey Milk. >> Harvey Milk. Like, think just, you learn about shit you wouldn't know. So, Paul Pot. Cambodia, let's start here. Okay. It's a Sunday in late February, 1996. And we're in Los Angeles, China Town. It's about 845 pm, and residents hear something that sounds like firecrackers, then make a horrifying discovery in the garage of a small apartment building. Neighbors find the body of a beloved fixture in Los Angeles's Cambodian community,

and in the Cambodian community worldwide. He had been shot getting out of his car, and what police will ultimately decide was a robbery gone wrong, but this will remain up for debate. The reason for this is that the man who had been killed had been a vocal critic of Cambodia's government and a survivor of the genocidal pull-pot regime, and just to give you some numbers,

that led to the deaths of an estimated 1.5 to 3 million people, which was a quarter of the country's

population. Wow. This might have been a doctor, a forced labor, a refugee, a community advocate, and in a surprise turn, an Oscar-winning actor. In fact, he was the first person of Asian heritage to win the award. Wow. May is a API heritage month, and this is the story of the amazing life, brave actions, and tragic death of Heng Noir. Wow. The main source for the story is a documentary called the killing fields of Dr. Heng S. Noir. Fucking hate recommended enough. It tells you so

“much information. Also, you should watch the killing fields. It's incredible. He plays the Cambodian”

journalist. Right. You know, I'm talking about the main character, basically. So the rest of the sources can be found in the show notes. I've been wondering through the story for so long, but I just wanted to make sure I did it right, and I really want to thank Ali Elkin, my researcher,

for doing such an incredible job of putting this together for me. Nice. Heng Noir is born into a

reasonably well-to-do family in Cambodia. His father has several agricultural businesses, owning both rice fields and lumber yards. He's born in 1940, and his family lives in the countryside. So they are just living this traditional life that their families have for generations in the agricultural business. They're not really far out from Penampen, the capital city, but their life is just kind of a peaceful everyday life. For all of Heng's life, there is some degree of political unrest

in Cambodia. And all of it is stirred up to varying extends by Western colonialism. So he's born under French colonial rule in a land that is still called at the time French Indo-China, which also includes modern-day lives and Vietnam. And throughout his childhood, there's a gorilla effort to overthrow the French colonizers. Heng's family at times has caught up in the middle of this. His parents had been kidnapped for ransom by corrupt members of both sides of this conflict

“on multiple occasions. So that's what everyday life is like. Multiple kidnapping. Yes.”

Poor thing. Part of the reason for this is that Heng's father is ethnically Chinese, and his mother is part of the Cambodian ethnic majority, which is the Khumair. So they are each victimized in turn for different reasons. But this is ultimately a low-level inconvenience in comparison to what happens later in Cambodia's history. As a teenager, Heng moves to Penampen to try to shelter from all this unrest in the countryside. He's very, very smart, like top of his class. He eventually

goes to medical school, and while he's there, he meets a fellow student named Hoi, and she's training to become a teacher, and they fall in love. This is so truncated. Yeah. The documentary is

incredible. Heng becomes a gynecologist, and in this time period, Cambodia becomes independent,

the late '60s and early '70s, the Vietnam War begins, and eventually the United States

“conducts a brutal bonding campaign on parts of Cambodia along the border with Vietnam. And so,”

Ali added this famous quote in the research from Anthony Bourdain, that says, quote, "Once you've

been to Cambodia, you'll never stop wanting to beat Henry Kissinger to death with your bare hands.

You will never again be able to open a newspaper and read about that treacherous, pervericating murderous scumbags, sitting down for a nice chat with Charlie Rose, or attending some black tie affair for a new glossy magazine without choking." Witness what Henry did to Cambodia, the fruits of his genius for statesmanship, and you'll never understand why he's not sitting in the dock at the haig next to Malosevic, and quote, "as in

fucking war crimes." Everybody knows this already, but I just want to say it again, the loss of a mind and a spirit like Anthony Bourdain, where he is a speaker of truth to power in that way. There's not enough guys like that anymore where they're like, "No fuck you and the truth times 20." Yeah, like this might hurt my career, but I'm actually a Palestinian guy. This is actually, yes, exactly. This is what we're supposed to be doing here, totally.

Why are we pretending that this isn't disgusting? Exactly. So, thank you to Ali for including that. So, with this in the background in 1970, when Hang is 30 years old in a practicing physician, and he just has this kind of normal life. He's got friends, he's got family, he's got this girlfriend, he loves, he's a doctor, he has this mentality that everything is fine, and the warring is going to come to a truth, and like so many people just pretends like it's not going to affect him,

and doesn't pay attention to it at all. At this place, this is when Cambodia's government is overthrowed in a coup. So, Cambodia's prime minister is a man named Norodum Sianok, and he had originally been appointed king by the French, and then led Cambodia to independence, then abdicated his position, then was elected by an overwhelming majority. So, people seem pretty happy with this, but then he goes out of town, and there is a coup that is orchestrated by two government officials who are

his opponents, and they only had support from a small minority of Cambonian elites, but some believe they were aided by the Americans, probably true. So, these officials take over, they allow the Americans to invade the southern border with Vietnam to force out North Vietnamese fighters, and the influx of American money into Cambodia, usher's in a time of prosperity for some, including Heng's father, who buys a second lumber mill. But in the countryside, poor and more

rural Cambodians are coalescing their support around Sianok, now in exile in China,

who has always been, he'd always been beloved. He, that people believe that he was appointed

by God or that he was a God, and behind this unlikely ally to the countryside and poorer Cambodians is the leader of Cambodia's Communist Party, Paul Pot. Here we are, here we are. Okay. This group

“becomes the Khumeir Rouge. They are actually ethnically Khumeir, and then Rouge, I think means red, right?”

So, red is communist. Hey. So, in 1975, the Khumeir Rouge under the leadership of Paul Pot, but with the encouragement of Sianok, marches into Panam Pen and deposes the new government. They take over. The regular Cambodians who are there are kind of rejoicing thinking that finally the Khumeir Rouge are going to bring some kind of peace and normality and quickly learn. That's not true. It's a big part of the movie The Killing Fields. Right. So, the Khumeir Rouge

launched a new ultra authoritarian communist regime that they nickname year zero, like shit is over. Everything you thought you knew done gone. The idea is that the country is starting from scratch, and educated people and professionals are specifically targeted to be killed or imprisoned.

So, it basically comes as ultra ultra communist country and lifestyle. All private property is

“outlawed. Every aspect of life is dictated by the Pol Pot regime. There's no such thing as private”

property. There's no money. You can't even have your own cooking utensils and make yourself food. You have to eat in the big groups because everyone is equal. You can't wear glasses, husbands, and wives are separated. Children are separated. It just becomes this present via. There's no money. There are no clocks or calendars. Citizens are just assigned to labor details and non-comers, especially become forced laborers. So, they're all sent out of the big cities

back into the countryside to work in Aliro. No to Georgia. It feels important to mention that this vision of communism is often used as a reason why we shouldn't have any kind of socialized systems,

it can result in similar violence and wiping out of several liberties. Yeah. So, thank you, Ali,

“for noting that. Yeah. You put our thoroughitarianism on really anything. Right. And it turns into”

that exact same thing. So, when all of this had begun, as I said, hang is a doctor. And at that moment that everything gets changed, he is operating on a patient. When the Khmer Rouge stormed the clinic that he's in. One operative holds a gun to his head and asks him if he is the attending physician, which he is. But as I said, any educated professionals are wiped out. So, he lies and says the attending had just stepped out of the room, essentially posing as a lower level clinic staffer,

which saves his life. He can't tell anyone he's a doctor. He's then caught up in a forced evacuation from Penampen and is separated from his girlfriend, Hoi, and his family, separated from everyone. So, hang lies about being a doctor, since educated people are automatically just being killed. Hang, like most other people, is assigned to an agricultural labor detail in which he is required to push a plow through fields. That is a job that livestock would have primarily done. And they

just put people on the like oxen cart to push through the fields. They turned the whole country into

slave labor. Slave labor. Yeah. During this period between 1.5 and 3 million people are killed in

Cambodia through execution, starvation, and disease. Hang is tortured on multiple occasions, usually for stealing food, his he's starving. On one occasion, he's tied to a tree overnight, and he's bitten all over his body by red ants. And on another occasion, he and multiple other forced laborers are put on crucifixes with their bare feet over smootering fires. And he watches as a pregnant woman who's being punished the same way die while this is happening. And in the

documentary, he is interviewed in the states about what happened. That was like, and he gets into some really gory details in front of the audience. And it's just horrible, but it's so incredible that he is brave enough to tell the awful things that they did to people. When they're being punished like this, what was the justification? Do you know like what was the point of putting those people up on crucifixes? Well, they stole food. This is your punishment, but this is also a lesson that

everybody has. Everyone that this is what happens because everyone is equal. They get the same amount of food. If you're stealing food, you think you're better than the government. You think you know more your punish crucifixion. Yeah. Hang eventually does reunite with Hoay who becomes pregnant. There's already not enough food to sustain someone who isn't pregnant and Hoay begins to starve. When she's seven months along, she goes into early labor. And obviously there's no way to get her

any kind of medical attention. There's no medicine. There's no equipment. And here's the thing.

Hang is a trained gynecologist. And he could have operated attempted to save her though he has no save tools or medicine, but the operation would likely kill her. He knew that. She was going to die either way. If he attempted to save her, he would out himself as a doctor. So he couldn't do anything and Hoay dies in his arms and the baby dies too. After Hoay dies, Hang actively tries to get killed. He just does him in the fucking room.

I mean, the guilt, the horror of that, like when you're in a survival situation like that, you're just having to make these calls that are beyond. And I feel like there's so many people like when we learn about Vietnam and Cambodia, it's like that's what their lives were like,

“always they were used to it. And I think people need to remember that that's not the case.”

Like that it's the exact same thing as if that sort of happened to us right now. Like the horror that if you saw a pregnant woman being tortured, it's not like you've been seeing that since you were a child, you're used to it, which I think is sometimes the justification of people's minds that it's like not as bad somehow. I feel like any time that is what's coming out of your mouth. Right. That's what. Yeah. Yeah. You got to take a look. What are you talking about?

What are you talking about? And also just the oppression, that level of extreme and just like oppression as far as the eye can see is such a hopeless, horrible situation to be in. I really don't think I would try to survive. I mean, I really don't think I would. I mean, I thought about it so many times of like, you know, the Holocaust, too. It's like, I don't think I'd be walking. I think I'd be like,

you say that. Right. That's true. You say that. But then remember the guy that basically ran away

from the Nazis and had to keep running for like four months or something. Yeah. Like that's

“a human survival instinct. Yeah. That's what you do. And if you can't get away, you do get away”

and then you keep going. And you build from there. And then you get used to being scared. And then you help other people that are scared. I mean, that's what every immigrant story really is. Seriously, you don't want them when. Yeah. You go through the real shit. And then you come back and help other people go through shit. Right. That's very, very dismissive of an experience. I am too

it's unbelievable. You know, this is going to sound so corny. But like, generational trauma, right? We all know that's a thing that's passed down. But but the fact that we're alive means there was also generational like Hutspa, yeah, meaning as they were traumatized, they stayed alive and kept living and lived long enough to fall in love and have children. And

“that's why we're alive. So we have, we have generational trauma for sure. Yeah. But we also have”

whatever the fuck it was, the Hutspa that kept them alive too. And in perfect source of real gratitude, yeah, for every day. So Huy dies and Hing is over life. He steals food at every opportunity, just trying to get killed, essentially. But somehow he makes it until 1978 when the Vietnamese invade Cambodia. This sets off a decade of warfare between the Khumair Rouge and the Vietnamese. Now that there's the chaos of fighting to distract the Khumair Rouge, Hing has an opportunity

to escape. With a large group, he travels to the Thailand border out of the 200 people that escape with his group, only 17 people make it alive across the Thai border. The only living relative or person he knows at that point is his young niece named Sophia and they escape together. Once in Bangkok, Hing works as a volunteer doctor at a refugee camp. So despite all of these fucking horrors that he's gone through, all this PTSD, he still becomes, he could just, doesn't have to do anything

but survive. But instead, he volunteers to be a doctor at this refugee camp. I bet you there's

part of him that was just like, I finally get to be a doctor that I made for my skills. And like,

“actually do something about this horror that I'm surrounded by. Totally. Hing takes the only thing”

he has is a photo of Huy. And when he escapes, he has a professionally colorized and puts it into a custom gold locket. Where is that around his neck? So she can be close to his heart at all times. And then he and his young niece Sophia move to the United States. Wow. So Hing and Sophia, who's a teenager, now settled in Los Angeles in 1980, almost their entire family in addition to Huy had been killed by the Kumeir Rouge. He trains to take his board so that he can practice medicine and works as a

volunteer with refugees. So right around this time, and this is just, he could have lived the rest of his life out like that. But for some reason, fate intervened and this footnana's thing happens to him. Right around the same time, director Ronald Jaffee is preparing to make the film the killing fields. It's based on the true accounts of two journalists. One, a Cambodian named

“Durth Pran, and one, an American named Sydney, Shanburg. And they had written the book The”

Killing Fields. And so the casting director Pat Golden is working really hard to find the perfect person to play, death. And hasn't had any luck. So she somehow finniggles her way into a Cambodian wedding in order to scout for her actor. Brilliant. Uh-huh. And this is where she discovers Hing. And he is just seems like a really charming, happy person. He's smiling and laughing a lot despite everything that happened to him. He's very outgoing or garious. He says when he was a kid,

he was hyperactive. And he's just really likable. And so something about him catches her eye.

It had never crossed hangs mind to be an actor. In Cambodia, at the time actors are not particularly

well paid or respected. But he decides to go on an addition and just have a good time with it. He's like, here's a weird opportunity to have in my life. Let's do it. And there's a video of his audition. And the man is a survivor of concentration camp. Right. He's just like sure. Yes. And he blows everyone away with his raw emotion. And when you watch the documentary and you watch this audition, you completely get it. And you see that what he did is just took himself back to his actual pain

and the actual things he experienced of the story that he is telling in this movie. It wasn't a hard stretch for him. Yeah, and he's able to do it. And so he's cast in the movie, along with Sam Waterston, our lawn order, you know, the greatest man. The greatest actor ever to live the greatest man ever to live. Here's a photo of them from the killing fields. Look at a young

sample. I know. I know. Damn. It's such an incredible movie. Like I get full metal jacket. But

this is the movie that he should watch. Also just looking at his face, he had to go to a reenactment of a thing he actually lived through. Totally. And he just said he channeled at the whole time. And also he was telling them what it was really like the whole time. Wow. On set, hang has that same access to all his very real emotions and experiences and he's able to consult with the actors who hadn't had direct experiences with the Kumear Rouge. When the movie comes out

in 1984, it bears the brutal truth of the Kumear Rouge regime to the world. And hang is considered a front

Somebody like Robert Duval, John Malchovich. Oh, she has also in this movie, but John Malchovich,

“like one of the greatest train actors of all time. And he wins. And so that year's Oscars are held”

at the Dorothy Chandler Pavilion, which is downtown. And hang in Sofia live in Chinatown. So they're like able to see where they're, they walk home, change their clothes, come back. They're not in that really fucking hell's regret would. Yes. So they vastly underestimate how long it's going to take them to get there and Oscar traffic because we're like, it's five minutes away. One take as long. They just barely make it on time. And they didn't realize that the supporting actor award is the

first presented award that night. So when they're announcing the nominees, they have to put a photo of

them out because he's not even in his seat yet. Like they can't panda his seat. Literally that late. And as he's walking in, his name gets called and he walks straight in and up to the fucking podium. And gives like the speech will make it cry. It's so beautiful. Here's a photo of him winning. Oh, it's just such a beautiful moment. You can tell he's so humbled by this opportunity to show what happened to his people. Yeah. And it's such a representative of like the Oscars is the world,

kind of. Right. And so then it's like the world. Yeah. Yeah. And he brought his niece along. I

“think she was 15 at the time. And she was a tomboy. And he said, "Do her you need to get a dress."”

And she's like, "I don't want to do this." She goes anyways. She's in the documentary. So in his acceptance speech, he says, quote, "This is unbelievable, but so is my entire life. I wish to thank all members of the Motion Picture Academy for this great honor. I think David Putnam, Roland Jaffee, for giving me this chance to act for the first time in the killing fields. And I share this award to my friend, Sam Watterson, Diff-Pran, Sydney Shamburg, and also Pat Goldin,

the casting lady who found me for this role. And I think Warner Brothers for helping me tell the story to the world, let the world know what happened in my country. And I thank God Buddha, that tonight I'm even here." I'm not giving it what it deserves. Well, you're not supposed to do it. That's okay. That's absolutely a little bit. No, but I mean, just everything about that is such a, especially back then when it was like the time of our tours. I mean, I remember seeing the

killing fields on Cisco and Ebert on the weekend, because of course my parents always watch that.

It was like, "Well, that's heavy. I don't think I could watch that. Whatever, why I'm always like, yeah." And that took over the zeitgeist essentially that year and everyone paid attention. Totally. I mean, there were so many incredible movies coming off the time. So the fact that it broke through, it was really says a lot about all of it. Go to Hell, John Malkovich. And that's our message. That's podcast. There's any message. Oh my God. John Malkovich, love you. He's not here. He's not here.

He's not here. He's not here. He's not here. Yeah, but our friend was going to tell him. I'm sure there's apology. I'm on your mind. It's got to be friends with fucking John Malkovich. Oh, we need all those powerful character actors that know each other. Yeah, they must. Come on. Okay, so hang gets more roles, but he also really dedicates himself to telling the world what happened in his country. He uses his famed, get the message and goes on a lot of like talk shows. At this point in

late 80s and through the 90s, no one from the career Rouge has been punished and their predecessors continued to hold power in the Cambodian government. Though the extreme and genocidal policies have been walked back a bit. Polpoc goes into hiding, hang testifies before Congress about his experiences and is an extremely outspoken critic of the Cambodian government. At once speaking engagement, he notes the brutality portrayed in the killing fields then saying quote, the killing

fields isn't bad enough, suffering enough, bloody enough, and quote. He does this work prolifically through the first half of the 90s. He's actively speaking out against the current Cambodian government, which again has vestiges of the old Khumeir Rouge in the wake of the fall of Western Communism. Cambodia is an a period of transition with some unrest, though nothing like what he had seen. And Cienoc is still influential and somehow evades blame for the Khumeir Rouge even though he had

lent his support to it. So this brings us back to the night that hang is killed outside his

“Los Angeles apartment, building in 1996. And this is like I remember hearing about this and it's just”

he's sort of what the things he survived that will never understand and he comes to it's just

like I remember feeling shame that we did this to him after what he survived. Like our country, my city did this to him, you know. So hang had been shot and he's found lying next to his car with his Rolex watch missing, but there's $2,900 in cash undisturbed in his car. And the immediate impression in the news and among hang's neighbors is that he had been targeted by allies of the Cambodian government because of his outspoken criticism. They immediately knew he was

since hang had several business interests in Cambodia, including his family, lumber yard, which he's

“still had. So it's a surprise to everyone when three young men, all Asian-American, in all affiliated”

with a gang, are charged with hang's murder. All three men maintained that they had been about a mile away at the time of hang's death. At trial, prosecutors say that the men had demanded hang's lock it with the picture of Hoi in it that he still wore and that he had refused to give it up and this is why they killed him. That was the prosecution's story. People take issue with its argument because hang's pockets were thought to have been undisturbed and there's $2900 left in his car.

All three men are found guilty on April 18th, 1998. The same day, poll-pot dies in exile in the jungle on the Thai Cambodian border. Wow, yeah. After hang's death, death ran the journalist upon who's story, the killing field's is based, says quote, "He's like a twin with me. He's my co-messenger and right now I'm alone." And quote, "There are no trials from members of the Kumeir Rouge until the early 2010s when the U.N. holds them alongside the Cambodian government.

Three high-ranking officials are sentenced to life in prison. During one of these trials, the official says that hang Norse murder had been ordered by the Kumeir Rouge as retribution for his speaking out against the regime. An organization called the Innocent Center has taken up the case of one of the three men who had been convicted of his murder. After the release of the killing field's hang had said quote, "If I die from now on, okay, this film will go on

for a hundred years." And that is the story of the life and legend of Cambodian American truth teller and hero hang Norse. Wow, you know, I almost did it our LA live show, but I was like,

“it's too heavy. It's so heavy. I mean, but it's incredible. It's like, that's what makes it like,”

all of that and then you walk straight into the Oscars and win. What a life beyond. I mean,

what an incredible life and what a strong person and what a a great example for Asian American

Pacific Islander heritage month? Yes. I mean, it is though. That's a great example of someone who's like been through an absolute governmental nightmare. Basically, the fabric of reality following a part around him, trying to manage his dying and losing everything, not dying, being murdered and then being an immigrant where he just builds and builds and builds and builds. And then comes back to do something about it. Totally. Doesn't just move on with his life.

Incredible. Yeah. So hang Norse. Jacob Kingston grew up in an isolated polygamous sect. We were God's chosen Kingdom on Earth. He felt destined for greatness. So when a swaggering Armenian businessman had a pulse Jacob into an extraordinary world, he doesn't look back. For our easy Lamborghinis, private jets meeting the president of Turkey, Amishamaki and this is one of the most shocking criminal conspiracy's I've ever come across.

When Jacob met Levant, this went to a billion dollar fraud. But with two kings from entirely

different worlds, just how long can their empire survive? The largest tax investigation

“in American history. You need to tell me what you know is somebody coming after me.”

Jacob told Levant, you're ruining my life. Listen to Kingdom of Fraud on the Ayahart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. May is mental health awareness month, and your 20s, they can feel like a lot. On the psychology of your 20s podcast, we unpack the anxiety that overthinking the heartbreak the identity crisis all of it that comes with being in your 20s. Because if you've ever thought, is anybody else feeling this way? They definitely are.

I feel like my 20s was a process of checking off everything that I was not good at to get to what I was good at. Oftentimes, we take everything a little bit too seriously and we get lost in things that we later on decide weren't even important to us to begin when there was a large chunk of my 20s that I was just so wanting to like be out of that phase out of my skin, and I just like really regret not living in the present form. Each week, we break down the

science behind what you're going through and give you real tools to navigate it. Your 20s aren't about having it all figured out. They're about understanding yourself just a little bit better. Listen to the psychology of your 20s on the Ayahart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcasts. This season on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler,

they want to be an actor or whatever. My first thing is always, can you think of anything else?

You can do rather big. Because for today, do that. Dennis Leary. I wake up and I'm hitting him in the head with a water bottle. And Bruce Jenner is on the aisle in a karate stance like he's about to attack me like making karate noises. And his been tired. The Kardashians send me over there. Everybody's going, and the air marsh is trying to grab my arms and screaming. I immediately know that I've been at Sleepwalk. David, oh, yellow, I love this podcast. Whether it's therapy or

relationships or religion or sex or addiction or you just go straight for the guts. Guy, brand-un. So anyway, Nicole Kidman broke up with Keith Urban. Being half of a country couple

was always a hat she was going to wear, not like a life she was going to leave.

“Oh, interesting. I like that. Did you practice that on your way?”

Gaten moderatso from Stranger Things. Sam, I'm Moju, Camilla Morone at Kary Kenny Silver. And more. Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season two podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpride became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years

until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to burden of guilt season two on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, we are going to take a left turn. Please. I don't want to surprise you,

“but this is also based on the dead Kennedy song. That's not true at all. And it's actually maybe”

the complete other end of the spectrum. This story is the main story. If you were a kid in the 90s and in elementary school, a teacher read you a book about a family of pioneers, they're called Dean Bears. Close. It's called Apples to Oregon by a writer named Deborah Hopkinson, and it follows an 1800s Midwestern family in their westward journey. And it is loosely based on the life of a successful horticulturalist who's also known as the Johnny Apple seat of the West.

Oh, yeah. There's the story of his life after all his pioneering days were over in his fruit trees replanted. He went into a different branch of life. He attempted to start what's been described as a doomed quaker sex cult. Oh dear. This is the story of horticulturalist Henderson Lueling.

“Okay. Are you ready? I'm so ready. Okay, main sources used for today's story are”

reporting by Finn JD John from the offbeat Oregon website writing by Heather Aren't Anderson from Portland Monthly and archival editions of the Iowa Journal of History and the Sacramento Bee, your favorite newspaper. And the rest of the sources are in our show notes. So Henderson Lueling story begins in 1809 when he is born to a Quaker family in North Carolina. So this is one of those 1800 stories that there's spotty reporting on some stuff. It's back far enough that it's like

we're pretty sure that he blank blank blank. There's a lot of that kind of story telling his story. It's very prehistoric in that it is like pioneer era life. Right. Not a lot of when you're out on the prairie fighting for your life. Not a lot of diary dripping. Right. Not a lot of daily. There's not a lot of journaling. A lot of sources to find the truth. We needed more scrapbooking back then. Definitely. We're vlogging. Oh my god. Just a vlogging on a nice stone outside of town

down by the river. Okay. So one Henderson is in his teens. He and his family and many other southern Quakers moved to Indiana, likely influenced by the Quaker community's growing opposition to slavery. So they wanted to get out of this south. And when they moved to Indiana, Henderson's father opens a nursery and he and his brothers help run. It's the family business. He helps run it. He will later marry another Carolina born Quaker. Her name is Elizabeth Pressnell and when he's in his 20s,

Henderson opens his own nursery. So this is a story for Janet. Oh my god. My mom and beloved us. She loves a horticulture. Such a horticulture in the 1830s when Henderson is in his 30s because he was born around 1800. He moves west again to eastern Iowa. So this is after the Black Hawk War. And the federal government had forcefully removed both the sock and the Fox tribes

from their land. And now they were actively encouraging white settlers to come and basically settled

settle in Salem, Iowa again. Henderson opens a nursery. He offers high quality seedlings and grafted trees. So I know you know this because your Janet's daughter but grafting is when you take the roots from a strong tree and you attach them to the shoot or a bud from another tree so that the produce is really good fruit. Your Frankensteining fruit trees essentially got it. It's what you did all summer every summer. So as more settlers arrive in Salem, virtually all of them become Henderson's

customers because this is basically like they're settling this land and planting it and he brilliantly

or you know whether or not it was intentional. He's in this business that is always needed. Yeah.

But like no matter what, there's a demand for basically being able to grow your own food. Yeah. So Henderson's grafted trees reliably generates so many cherries, apples, paris, plums and peaches that per one source, quote, the local market could not absorb the yield. Wow. So he's making a possible for everybody to live large. So his business is a massive success and he and Elizabeth take this prosperity and they invested into their home but not in the way that you would think,

not the usual pioneer luxuries, red velvet curtains and soap. Instead, they build trapdoors and hiding places and then offer it as a stop on the underground railroad. Wow. Because they are Quakers. Right. Today that house is on the National Register of Historical Places. Wow. Problem is that when Lou Welling's church learns that they are doing this for the people searching for freedom that way, they do not approve of it. Okay.

Very Joel Austin of them. So Henderson decides that he's going to leave that church and start his own church that is more full-throated in its condemnation of slavery. So at some point in the

“1840s, he opens the doors to his new place called anti-slavery friends. That's what he named”

his church straight forward. Just like put the banner right over the front door, people will come and they did. So now he has a successful business. He has a happy family and he has the glowing

respect of his community. But he wants more as they always do. So he really, guys, got to stop it.

They can't help it. Especially if they read pamphlets, which was the vlogging of the pioneer days. So Henderson reads some pamphlets about the Lewis and Clark expedition that went from 1804 to 1806. I say as if I knew that. And he finds it all very romantic, the adventure and the discovery. More importantly, he learns that despite the fact that the Pacific Northwest has very fertile land, it doesn't have a variety of high quality fruit trees growing there. So instead of settling into

the life that he's built in Iowa, he starts thinking about starting it all over again in the Pacific Northwest. No one can understand why he would want to give up everything and start over in an unfamiliar place for a third time. But to me, there's his trauma right there. He now needs to keep on

“doing it. Yeah, that's how he's in control. But Henderson will tell a friend quote,”

it makes no difference how much a man has around him. If he is not satisfied, he will go off and leave it. So in April of 1847, 39 year old Henderson and his wife and their eight children, along with several other pioneering islands set out in a wagon train for the 2000 mild journey to Oregon. That's too many. Just good, good, good, good thing. Someone's pregnant and make just having

the worst time in the life. Keep going. And it's hot or it's cold. It's middle. You've always

got a bonnet on. Oh, it's cold. So the Lewinling party consists of four wagons total. But Henderson has filled one of those wagons with 700 saplings and grafted trees so he can start his new nursery in Oregon. Author Heather Arn Anderson writes quote, "It was in St. Plan with little chance of success. Everyone mocked him for it. He did it anyway." Those mockers. So the Lewinling family makes the brutal westward journey across the Missouri River over the Rocky Mountains. So they've

got their pioneer wagon. Some of these trees are stretching out of the pioneer wagging like four feet. It's so clunky and so bad for that kind of travel. Yeah. It requires constant upkeep. It's also filled with soil, like the trees are planted in back of the wagon. Right. So it's incredibly heavy. There's genuine concern that Henderson's oxen are going to give out under this wagon's weight. Members of the wagon train repeatedly suggested he ditches nursery wagon. No, it's the

whole point. It's the whole point. But also they're just like, come on. There's trees everywhere,

“which you have to admit it'd be like bringing a big wagon of dirt. Just be like we have to”

bring this good. This is the dirt. This is the Iowa dirt. Henderson is committed and seven months,

Willlamot Valley against all odds, the trees and saplings make it to. I've been there. It's so gorgeous.

“So beautiful. Yeah. That's where all the good stuff is. Yeah. So they settle just south of Portland.”

Henderson immediately gets to work clearing his property of the large fur trees that are on it so that he can lay out his nursery, which will end up being another huge success. And it will be the first grafted tree nursery on the Pacific coast. It seems like I'm really end up being an arborist or something. Yeah. It's just a part of this story. Okay.

Because I'm going to pretend like I am just super into trees. Just pretend like that's always

been my personality all the way up until this point. Definitely. You're a tree influencer. Yeah, everyone knows that. That's when you find out that I've been dating a guy that's really into trees. And then suddenly I am too. That's so hot. Just a big tree guy. I lumbered it. This is sort of a, I don't know, landscaper of some kind. But point of all of this is this man had a career. He also had a very strong spiritual life. He was living in his very settled ways

in many ways. But then in 1851, his 35 year old wife Elizabeth, the mother of his now 10 children. Jesus dies of complications during her 11th pregnancy. Okay. So some speculate that this loss changes him with one the welling family historian writing quote, his life sort of fell apart and he was

adrift without an anchor seeking for something to fill that void and never finding it and quote.

So Henderson willing is grieving, but he is also in the most prosperous era of his life producing and selling sought after trees that helped build up Portland's settler economy. But of course, he wants more. And that's when he learns that down in California's mining towns, there's such a huge demand for reliable high quality fruit trees that people will pay $1, 1850 for an apple tree seedling. But essentially today's seedlings in today's 2020's

“money cost $10. Oh, wow. So that's how blow, you know, it's just basically the seller's market”

in the California mining towns. So Henderson is now in his mid 40s. He sells his organ business to a family member and he heads south in 1854. He winds up in the Bay Area and establishes a major nursery that he names fruit veil in property that has since been absorbed into the city of Oakland. You know, fruit veil station, which is the infamous train station where the shooting took place. So fruit veil was a big part of the city of Oakland's kind of establishment. And Henderson is in the

center of it cultivating hundreds of thousands of fruit trees, apricots, grapes, apples, cherries, all to be planted throughout California. One right up notes, quote, again, Henderson was a no small measure responsible for the beginning of the great fruit industry of another Pacific Coast state. And industry, which has brought more wealth to California than all the gold the state has produced. I grew up in Orange County. I was aware of it as a young child. I mean, everywhere.

Yeah. And it's kind of funny because then when you fly up to the Pacific Northwest,

like one of the first things you hear about are like the Marion berries or the, you know,

like all of that, um, produce and farmland that's in the William Valley. So once he gets to California though, Henderson kind of starts going through a reinvention. He's perfectly middle aged. He's a widow. He's been working his ass off all his life and he's been a quaker, but now he's crossing paths with radical thinkers, including people who are in his own quaker community, but that are now experimenting with new belief systems like the utopian movement, which was the idea that a perfect

society could exist, or the free love movement, which posits that marriage is oppressive and sexist, and its sexual norms should be looser, or the alternative health movements like vegetarianism, where people followed it for both health reasons and moral reasons, where they moralized it. Um, and of course it's the 1850s. So you got to have spiritualism. I was wondering. Yeah. It's right in there. The beliefs that the living can contact the dead. So

there's a ton of overlap in all these ideas. They're all zeitgeistly, particularly in the Bay Area, which even then had a reputation for being open minded. So it's easy to see why loelling finds all of this to be appealing as a fierce abolitionist, the idea of liberating people

“from unjust institutions is important to him, and then the idea of personal liberation is a”

central tenant in the free love movement. He's also kind of a single guy out there like, hey, what about her? What if this was cool? To the average pioneer, vegetarianism might seem weird, but it's a long-held quaker tradition. So it's not weird to him. And of course, Henderson would embrace spiritualism while coping with the death of his wife. And that is kind of the gateway

brought into harmony. But at that point, this is where things go very far away from the Johnny Apple seed kind of folk hero stuff and into stranger terrain. Because now it's the late 1850s, Henderson's in his late 40s. He either starts this group or he links up with this San Francisco based group called the harmonial brotherhood. And there are sources that say he started it,

but it isn't totally clear. But basically, there's no intricate day and day out details of the

harmonial brotherhood. But what we do know is it's made up of about 20 people, men, women, and children, and many of them come from quaker backgrounds. And now they subscribe to a blend of spiritualist utopian and free love beliefs, just like him. And plums. So in the pursuit of personal quote, harmony, they follow strict vegetarian diet. They swear off caffeine. And they favor spiritualism adjacent treatments of the day like hydropathy, which is basically baths, wraps, cold plunges.

“Honestly, it sounds way better than some of the movements and religious fucking evangelicals from”

back then. Hell, yes. It sounds like goop. I mean, I'm a wronger. They're definitely right about a lot of it and kind of write, headed about a lot of it. But what usually happens?

You know, Jim Jones comes along. There's always someone like transition lenses. This is going to

fucking ruin your utopia. So the brotherhood's hydropathy practitioner is a man who is either a spiritualist preacher or a blacksmith, depending on who you're reading, and he also was once a circus performer. So he can do it all. Definitely. The one thing he's not trained as is a formal medical physician, and yet he is referred to as Dr. Tyler or Dr. T. And he's the one that the water treatments are all coming from Dr. T. Okay. So there's an idea that Dr. T kind of started this

group because he's got all the treatments and the things that he's as their spiritual together, he's the one that's like, but I can actually lay some hands on and make some changes. Okay. So the brotherhood shares the dream of men and women living as equals in a state of excellent physical and spiritual health in a free love utopia, entering and exiting relationships at will, or as Heather aren't Anderson, the writer puts it, quote, "an individual's rights

“to bang anyone they fancy." She wrote that. Yes. Because essentially, that's what they're doing.”

Yeah. And doesn't sound like the worst life I've ever heard from this podcast. No, and also, at this time, there were other U.S. based religious groups doing exactly the same thing. Yeah. It's possible that they heard about the own night of community in upstate New York, which was established in the 1840s, and remained as a utopian free love Christian sect for decades, famously manufacturing the kitchenware you might have in your home.

It's fucking right. You covered that, right? No. Actually, I didn't because Marin then writes note to Karen. Oh, night, it could be fun to someday cover. Oh, my god. Do you mean it dips? Okay. But as progressive as a place like San Francisco can be, it's not remote or rural upstate New York. And so the brotherhoods values are far too radical for the average Joe down on

“market street. They realize that to live out their utopian vision, they're going to have to go”

somewhere more isolated, no crying eyes where they can build their new society in peace. It's weird. It is like a footprint like a blueprint for Jim Jones. It follows the trajectory of a cult. Yeah. And so this is where Henderson steps up and steps in. He's the richest member of this brotherhood. And of course, he's willing to sink all of his fruit tree money into this cause. If you think about all the risks he's taken, he's completed multiple cross-country trips

and reinvented himself like three times. So, and it's always worked. Why would he not think he could

do this? So he sells the bulk of his California business and pours his money into a big schooner. He buys the boat himself. And then he buys a 50,000 acre sparsely populated volcanic island off of Honduras. Oh, called Tiger Island. This is so Jim. This is so yeah, people stumble. Yeah, exactly. A lot of people are caught off guard by Henderson's deep entanglement with the harmonial brotherhood. None more than his new wife, Mary, who's been kept out of the loop on this

whole Honduras utopia plan from the beginning. She is not invited. Oh, so she's not in an intern. Yeah, really. So when she learns that her husband is about to abandon her, knowing that she will be left destitute, she tries to have him committed. And that actually is phrased very like it's one to the other, but there's also the chance she has been living with this man who's increasingly wearing transition lenses inside the house. And so she knows maybe something needs to be done.

your ass, but we'll never know. And the thing is, the courts agree with her and the police are

“dispatched to go find him. But Henderson is two steps ahead of everybody. He's gone into hiding”

until October 8th, 1859 when the harmonial brotherhood sooner sets sail out of San Francisco with nine male members, five female ones and six or seven children on board. Goodbye. Bye guys. But Henderson's not on board. He's actually watching the sooner from shore. And once it sails into the bay and then passes the place that the Golden Gate Bridge wants will be, he waits to see if any boats come up and try to arrest anybody on it. Once he sees that that doesn't happen, he gets on to a

smaller boat and under the cover of midnight and moonlight boards the scanner undetected out in the open oceans weren't move pretty cool or incredibly paranoid. So now they're sailing for Honduras, the boats crewed by hired sailors, not members of the harmonial brotherhood. And those sailors quickly realized this is going to be a weird ride and they will later give statements. They're

“the reasons that we know what was happening on this trip. And so their statements to reporters shape”

what we know essentially. For example, living conditions on board are physically miserable with passengers eventually being, quote, more or less covered with vermin. Good. Maybe they didn't know how to stock the ship or pack vegetables. It's so many vegetables. Yeah. Also tensions over food escalate very quickly because their vegetarian, it's a tough reality at sea. Their onboard diet consists mostly of, quote, coarse flour, apparently ground up with chaff, straw and all, and very much

resembling cattle feed. Chaff is that outer husk that you sometimes get stuck in your teeth

like the formula. Oh, oh, oh, yeah. Like the Ody Parsher. Basically, they are starving on this ship.

So then when they stop at ports along the way, some members get caught quote, dietary cheating. Oh, shit. Give me that bacon. Exactly. Buying salted pork and gaming. Because that's exactly what I'd go for. Exactly. You get a big hunk of beef jerky chew on it for nails and nice and just chewing on it. The people who do this are caught red handed and then heated arguments break out among the brethren because not only are you hoarding food, but it's against your beliefs.

Yeah. And it's not hot. So the biggest rift on the ship about food is known as the egg war. And it starts in Wilhaka, Mexico. When a merchant swindles both Dr. T. Anne Henderson, his con involves eight chicken eggs. Basically, Henderson sees him with the eggs. He runs up and says, I'll take all of them. The seller sells him the eight eggs and takes his money and then Henderson runs away to go get a container to put the eggs in. And while he's away, Dr. T walks up and says,

"I want all eight of those eggs." And the guy's like, "Sounds good." That communication. No communication. He sells them a second time and then disappears. When Henderson comes back with his handful of straw or whatever it is that he found to carry the eggs in, he sees Dr. T holding them and they start fighting over which one of them actually owns these eggs. We've all been there. Sure. The great egg war. But with these guys, they can't just work it up. They can't go like,

"Oh, we both were swindled." This is what it's like out on the open seas. Instead, they resent each other for days culminating in an all-hands meeting on the ship. Yeah, that little bitch is both of them. Yeah. And it's like everybody's fighting and it's ruining the cruise for the rest of us. It's ruining the vibes, the vibes are off. The vibes are so off so they have its staff meeting and all-hands meeting on the Lido deck. And Henderson tells the group, "God wants him to have the eggs."

Oh, settled. Who knew? Did they ever say that on Real Housewives? God wants me to have the eggs. So this fight is over. Yeah. But apparently this works. Henderson winds up with the eggs and the only reason we believe it is because at the same meeting, Dr. T. Vows to get revenge over eggs. They haven't even landed on the island yet and things are that bad. So clearly, the two vegetarian free-love alpha males are vying for control over the skinner and the spirit of the group itself.

As they do. As they seem to always want to do, Dr. T. is a blacksmith. Henderson is a rich pioneer.

Who will win? Lay your bets. Uh-huh. Good luck players. It takes some several months to finally arrive at Tiger Island. So several more months of that life and that strife. I have bars. So when the scooners crew is finally cut loose, they run to the reporters,

“describing the journey as a free-love hell. No such thing. I think those words wouldn't go together.”

But hey, and on a boat. And these are sailors. It's the first swingers cruise.

They know all the gossip because they're just like in the background of everything.

“Just not into it. They keep walking into the supply. Galley. Everyone's fucking back there.”

Sorry, don't let your kids listen to this episode. And they also document the hypocrisy among the supposedly liberated group members, mentioning a specific incident in another port in Mexico where a male member of the brotherhood happens to end up at the same stream where the female members are skinny dipping or bathing. I mean, they have been on a boat for months and months. Dr. T shows up and becomes so

I rate that this other man has just seen his wife naked that he quote threatened to break every bone in his body, unquote, so chill. So the blacksmith's turned water doctor seems like maybe not

always okay, or he's like me where when his blood sugar gets low, he threatens to kill him.

Which is the whole time. They're starving. They can't have any sugar.

“Okay. So now California papers are running sneering articles on this harmonious brotherhood utopian journey.”

They're clocking all of it. Meanwhile on Tiger Island, the gang is in rough shape. They're exhausted and they're depleted. They just arrived. Now they have to build the infrastructure needed to start like their little society, but immediately and very sadly something like malaria or yellow fever sweeps through the camp. And the terrible reality sets in for the group that Dr. T's hydropathy treatments are no match for real disease. One of the articles covering this

will document the deaths of a brotherhood member identified only as Mrs. C, just so sad if you think Richie Cunningham's mother dying this way. And they write quote, "They took Mrs. C while raging with the fever, wrapped her in a wet blanket till she perspired profusely, and then through cold water over her, this speedy result was her death."

“And quote, "What a fucked shitty way to go." Horrible. After months eating the worst oatmeal of all time.”

No, what was it all for? For real, just to die far away from home, two members of the harmonial brotherhood, die shortly after arriving at Tiger Island, Tennessee, and another, as many as eight get sick, including Henderson himself, but they recover. But there's only 20 people on this ship. So morale is extraordinarily low, and to make matters worse, the egg related riff between Henderson and Dr. T has not ended. Guys, let it go. We can't eggs, eggs,

precious eggs. Dr. T actually breaks away from the main group with a few loyalists on his side and starts a rival utopian society. Me and my two friends are out of here, and the other side of the island with our eggs. Literally, they go, they move to another side of the island.

They don't get the eggs, though. Soon after, Dr. T gets second ice himself. Oh, so you can't,

there's no room to just be busting off and being mad about eggs. No. The point is not the eggs. God has other plans for you when you're shaping about eggs. Amen. Okay. So from here, the information is spotty because, as I told you, no one's keeping diaries. There are enough scrapbooks from Tiger Island. I want to write down stuff. Well, this is actually dying. Yes. This is, I got weird and high over eating too many vegetables and like having sex whenever I wanted,

which seemed impossible, and now I'm in Honduras, and I don't know what's going on. Maybe my wife is right to put me in a mental institution. Yeah. Oops. Maybe my water treatments don't actually work. This is a musical. Okay. It only took eight months for the hormonal brotherhood's free love experiment on Tiger Island to implode. That's a long freaking time. Yeah. Yeah. What we know for sure is that in July of 1860, Henderson the Welling commissions accrued to sail his sooner back

to California. After this, when the group gets back, they disband for good. They seem to. The entire saga is extremely humiliating for all parties involved because they went out, you know, of course. Yeah. Guns ablazing. I've like, we're out of here. We're going to figure it out. That's right.

Things are going to be so much better at our new life. And this is always what I bring up in my argument

against vegetarianism. Bring the bacon. Bring the bacon. It's the old saying. Bring the bacon. You won't fight so much about the eggs. Also, yeah, because you put your protein difference between the fucking eggs in the bacon, really. It's a focus. Yeah. It's the lens through which it's so humiliating that Henderson loelling lives the rest of his life under a pseudonym. No. Members of his family, meanwhile, carry on his horticultural mantle and continue producing popular crops

on the Pacific coast. His brother Seth is particularly successful becoming famous for cultivating

to loelling LEW, ELL. Just to get away from the like. Yeah. So in 1878 while clearing land with a

control burn for a new nursery in San Jose, California, Henderson loelling dies of a heart attack at the age of 69. So he was starting it all over yet again in San Jose. This is a hard part to hear. He's reportedly found, quote, partially roasted with his clothes beard and the land around him still smoldering. So he got caught on fire and had a heart attack and died. He was control burning, had a heart attack dropped to the ground. Oh, and we're still a control burn. I couldn't get away from

hopefully he died, but let's say he died before their control burn. Oh, god. Oh, yeah. In 1929 while using on a sprout from one of Henderson's organ cherry trees, a writer named O. A Garrett's and

notes, quote, that this little cherry sprout originating at Salem, Iowa should withstand the risks

of transportation across the continent and the hazards of frequent transplanting and still live a towering monument to commemorate the energy and enterprise of a Salem pioneer is to the writer a fact stranger than fiction. And that's the story of the so-called father of the Pacific fruit industry and dirty bird Henderson lolling. Oh, I didn't show you any fucking pictures because it was so that you had the images and the words I didn't need it. I have it all in my mind. I want to see

“some of them. Okay. Here's the book we were talking about. I think I read that as a kid. It seems”

so innocent. Right. We'll just get ready. Okay. Very ill. There's the neck feared. I don't know. Back feared. This is crazy. This is the season of neck fears on my favorite murder. I guess this was like the Benson Boone mustache is today. This neck feared was in 1850 because he'd look fine without it. What are you doing? She's like you put some sheep's wool. It's kind of the wakery. It's wakery. I mean, this seems to be the trend of the time. Okay. What else have we got? Is that the

Scuner? No. I was wondering like a yacht. That's Tiger Island. Great. Okay. Or that's those bears. The Scuner. Okay. That's more what I thought. Still, it's not big and you can only have like really crunchy oatmeal. Oh, God. Rough. So not even big enough for people. If the sailors from this boat are complaining about a free love situation that we're to the Mount, it's everywhere. They were witnessing it front back in center. Whoops. Okay. All holes filled. Oh, that's wlamit valley. I know the wlamit valley.

I know the wlamit valley. When I look at it. All right. Well, that was great. Wow. Yeah. There's all these experiences you can have in life. Yeah. I could go so many different ways. That's all we want people to remember. I wish you. Please stop forgetting the variety of life.

“And enjoy yours because life is like a big cherry. Yeah. It's expensive. Stay sexy.”

I don't get hurt. Goodbye. I'll just do you want to clicky? This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our socio-producer is Tessa Hughes. Our editor is Aristotle Acevedo. This episode was mixed by Lianna Squalachie. Our researchers are Mary McLachian and Ali Alken. Email your hometowns to my favorite murder at gmail.com and follow the show on Instagram at my favorite murder. Listen to my favorite

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