Rewind with Karen & Georgia - 108: King of Police

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of Guild Season 3 podcast.

This is a story about a horrendous situation that destroyed two families. It's a scorched earth war that shows just how far someone will go to get what they want. Cindy said, I had to choose between the truth and my family, and I had to choose the truth. Listen to Season 3, a burden of Guild on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast.

The trail weekly is back with brand new stories, from threatening text messages disturbing a small Midwestern town. It was from a unknown number. Who else is getting these messages?

“Why did it start with us to long cons and stolen identities?”

Who lies about being this sick? This was the last time I ever believed the word she said. Listen to betrayal weekly on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On August 4, 1962, Marilyn Monroe died, then the rumors started and she died again.

And now, we're going to set the record straight and learn about the way Marilyn Monroe

actually died, the third way.

I'm Jake Brennan, and on my podcast Hollywood Land, I revisit some of the biggest stories from Hollywood history, separating the myths people want to believe from the reality underneath them. Hollywood Land is part of the exactly right network, listening to new episodes every Monday on the I-Hart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

To rewind with Karen and Georgia, this is that show where we look back on our old episodes from 2018 with new insights, case updates, and pop culture references. Today we're rewinding to episode 108, which we named King of Police. This episode originally came out February 15th, 2018. So let's listen to the intro of episode 108.

Hello. Hi, and welcome to my favorite, Emirator, the podcast that tells you, it's just things

talking tons of random terrible things without curse words.

That's right. This is an all-Christian podcast, a child friendly, a child friendly, religious based. We've got fucking railroad, or what are they called, trains going by in the background. Ghost trains? We don't believe in evolution.

Something you could want in a podcast, wow, that trains loud. Do you know how I got into an Uber the other day? There was this rock music playing, and I was like, okay, rock music, great, and then it was like, the lyrics were like, oh, fuck. You're just trying to sell me hard on Jesus' age, and you were like, hava, nagila.

I've had that a couple of times in Uber where I feel like people are like, they're trying to work, they're trying to make a dollar, but they're also like, kill tubers with one stone and be spreading the word of our Lord. I wonder if there's like a cult of, you know, Jesus' people who are like, this is how we're going to get people on as we're going to, yeah, Uber, and play pretty good rock music.

Pretty good. Passable. Yeah, so funny. I did Dave Holmes Friday, 40 last Friday.

“I got a lot of Chris Fairbanks of Do you need a ride and he said, it's first, I can't remember”

how it came up, but he goes, have you read that thing where you, you start to hear a song and you really like it, and then you realize it's Christian and then you realize you're like a hypocrite for not liking it. Kind of what happened. Well, I don't want to hear about how he lifts you up and you raise your, you're talking

in the air. He lifts you, like 30 dancing style, like he's just wheyzing. No one puts Jesus in a corner. Boom. And the podcast.

Boom. Good fly out. Fuck all y'all. Hey, can I do? Can I read this?

Cause fine. I've been exposed as being obsessed with bowling. Fine. I don't care anymore. Why are we bold yet?

I know we've had at least two days. So someone sent us a picture of the bowling socks I was talking about last on the Minnesota. Mm-hmm. The Minnesota.

Um, exactly as I described, three bowling pins, a red bowling ball, and what looks like puffs of air at the bottom?

“Do you think that's the speed of the ball that he knows?”

Cause it's like, it's like the, it's almost like a bomb goes off on your ankles.

And they're, um, these ones, uh, it says, this is for a hard start that's you, Georgia.

Thank you. Oh, cause this is Instagram. Okay. My favorite murder, I believe I got the mission bowling club. Is that in San Francisco?

It is. Gray wing. This is from Gray wing on Instagram. San Francisco. Um, PS, my grandmother is in the bowling hall of fame.

Oh, what? I'm so proud of it, Grandma. Who is she? We've pleased, send us more information. That's more information.

Gray wing, G-R-E-Y, W-I-N-G, San Francisco, California. If you could please send us a very concise book report, three to five paragraphs about your grandmother. With photographs from when she was playing bowling and as an elderly woman, what if it's both?

Oh my gosh. She started young and went all the way into her, to, to modern day.

I want to know what she carried in her purse on a regular basis.

Oh, the thing, though, that's, she's not just a great boulder. She is of the greatest boulders. Uh-huh. And you know San Francisco, I mean, that's where my people are from. Yeah.

“That's what I'm so passionate about bowling.”

It's not like they have a shortage of good boulders, so that means she was really fucking good. That's right. It's what everyone's like up there. It matters.

Uh, we're, we're going to go bowling, San. Oh, today is Valentine's Day. Oh, yeah. Happy Valentine's Day, everybody. Thank you.

Well, yesterday was Valentine's Day based on the one this podcast is going on. Based on the reality, you people live in. Right. Not the one. So we're currently drinking coffee and whiskey in.

That's right. We're having such a Valentine's Day party. Steven's drinking coffee out of a cat mug, which is his lifelong dream. Right. I'm drinking a coffee out of an FBI mug.

No, sorry, LA County corner mug, which is my dream. George is having some nice whiskey on ice. Out of a vintage, fucking tumbler mug, tumbler glass. Yeah, it looks like something that would absolutely have been left on my grandmother's nightstand.

Definitely. And then in the background, there is a train that has not, there hasn't been a train that's come by here in 25 years. Oh, we're living in our lives. Um, I wanted to tell you that after 20 year hiatus, I am again, reading

stranger beside me. Oh, really? Yeah. What brought you back to us? Zac Efron?

Well, people want to hear it, people want to talk about that. We have talked about it. I know, but there's more photos now. Okay. And as now that I'm reading it and like in it, I see the photos and I'm like, I know

when that was like supposed to have happened and good. My plan did Ted Bundy go through a weightlifting phase. That's the question I have because the first photo I saw. I really think he's too cut. He's insanely cut for from what I, in my limited, as we all know, extremely limited

research, he, Ted Bundy always seemed like kind of a skinny little professorial type.

“I think it's like a skinny, but like, what is it, you know, like a tennis player, sinewy,”

sinewy. This is why you wanted Gary, Sunnis, Sunnis, maybe we just happened to him. Is it Sunnis or you're just saying that? Because he's saying that. Is there someone you said he wanted to play him before this whole Ephron?

It's not Gary Sunnis. It's not Gary Sunnis. Um, who was it? Yep. Steven.

Come on, Steven. What? You kept your hands up like you don't work here. It's kind of a bitch. Steven.

Steven, you had one job. You had one job with Gary. Remember? Every word I say. It's not Gary Sunnis?

No. It's Gary Sunnis. It's, oh, I don't know what you mean. It looks like that. Ted Bundy.

Who would you want to play? Let's start over. Who do you think she played Ted Bundy? Not that Ephron.

“Let me stroke my mind early in visible beer.”

It's, uh, forget it. Edit this out. No, this is no. Steven says no. This is Steven's like, you don't decide.

He looks like Bill Pullman. Okay. I remember this. And I remember when it hit me. I was like, I'm a fucking casting genius.

You were. And he's in the movie. It's not Chris Pine. Is he? No.

Okay. Oh, no. It's Michael Sun, one Jack, Michael Sunnis. Drake and Mirror. There are people who have been screaming at their mouth.

I know. Michelle. Thank you. Gary and Greg. So similar.

You were right there with that J. I mean, but the four letter were him and J. Greg and Mirror is the, with dark hair. Because his eyes are little. He's good looking classically.

But his eyes are just enough close together. That you are suspicious of his. A agenda. Is this train circling the apartment? I think the train is coming for us.

Okay. Good. It's. We're tied on the trap right now. It's the 1980s.

We haven't been our rent. Steven is throwing his mustache. As he watches us tied to the track. Oh, good. Buster Keaton's here.

Oh, great. You know, I'm having. Now, of course, I'm having Ted Bundy Nightmares. Okay. And then because you're in that book.

And I keep saying stop reading the store. Just stop reading the store. And I can't put it down. It's so good. It's so good.

And it's also so dated and Anne rule.

Like, she should never have died because she just needs to keep updating this book.

It's the idea. Like, when she tells that story, the idea that she was the single mother who was trying. It was the working for the police department. But it was also trying to be a freelance writer. And she's like, what are the fucking chances?

What are the chances? And she's, but she's also volunteering at night. Like, what about us? And then she volunteers next to pretty much want it. Secondly, to like, again, or Dharma. Like, maybe, maybe, Dharma.

Gacy. But one, like, yeah, no.

“I think everyone, I think Ted Bundy was relatable to everyone because he was hot.”

Yes, he was so tricky. He was the ultimate, like, wolf and sheep's clothes. Totally. He was, he was trying to see them. I believe that he could have done it for so many years.

But when it was like, it's, we've found a man in a gold Volkswagen book. She called the, her friends at the detective agency. I was like, just looking at my friend. I know this is weird. Yeah.

Like, she even turned him in. And she was like, I don't, it can't be. It can't be him, but could you look because she was like, I can't deny, right? Right.

He was stacking up facts. Right. But still, it's not him. I know it's not him. And I, yeah.

Uh, that's the classic sociopath. Like, or psychopath? We didn't know it. Well, we, I was in boring. Uh, they, you know, they didn't know it at the time.

That that was a thing that even though someone doesn't look like a fucking murderer. Or act like it. No one, those people don't act like murderers. Yeah. Oh, now we know.

Well, so that movie is coming out of with Zac Efron. I hope he kills it. I'm looking forward to it. I think he will. I think he looks like him.

Enough.

“And the other thing that she keeps talking about.”

Is that, uh, he was like a shapeshifter that he looked different all the fucking time.

Which is why he was so hard to pin down is that he kind of always changed his look.

That's right. In fact, you can, if you look it up online, and I'm sure everyone that's most of the people listening have already seen this, but there is a collage of his mug shots. And you can see how the way they couldn't, like when he went from Seattle to Utah. And it's not even like a beard or not a beard.

It's just this look and his face. Yeah, he's got so different and that's the spookiest part. Yeah. And then by the time he gets to Florida, he's just a fucking maniac. Can you say that, Efron?

Man, what a fucking role. Yeah, I think he can do it. Oh, what a dream. Well, so there's this, there's this dog. He just can't.

Can I just say this? Yeah. He can't. I hope he knows. And if they're still shooting and he can hear me.

Mm-hmm. Don't smile with your eyes. Yeah. Because that's it. You got to go dead zone.

Totally. With those crazy eyes. Totally.

He's like, he's like, one of the reasons he's like a Disney star is because he's one of those 12 year old boys that would wink at a grown woman.

Yeah. It's a, it's a specific type of paper. He's a, he's a, he's a Ryan. Um, like, make. But.

Let's do this again. Oh, my god. He's a Ryan. Let's do it some more. The one everyone loves.

I don't like them. See them? Ryan's secrets. No. What?

Are you fucking kidding me? Steven. He's the one. You know the one one. Who was in drive?

Drive, right? Ryan Gosling. Yes. He's a Gosling. You were almost fired.

Oh. He's a Gosling. Seekrest. God damn it. Um.

Steven out. [laughs] Oh, a job. That's how you fire Steven. What?

That's how Ryan Seekrest fires people. Joanne out of accounting. Oh, Joanne. Joanne out. She did her best.

She tried. But someone knows something.

“Some things season four started loving it.”

David Reagan. I love something. Someone knows something. She's so good. This new one is about.

I love something. Something. This new one is about. This dude who gets sent this bomb. Explodes in his fucking hands.

Dies. Still hasn't been solved. It was like 1996. What? It goes back to fucking figure out what happened.

It's super good. And I'm really angry because they didn't drop all the episodes at once. Oh. That's a great way. Which is so smart.

But there's nothing more than having the way. But I hate it. That's great. Yeah, it's good now. Does he crunch down in in country lanes?

He fucking does his signature crunching towards the door from his car. Beautiful. He does. It's his thing. It's his signature.

I see him in my mind as I listen to him do that. And it's such a delightful and yet also incredibly upsetting movie.

Yeah. It's such a documentary filmmaker thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. You know?

It's so exciting that there's a love season. Hello. That's all I have to say. And we are back. So much Jesus.

So much Christian talk. We love it. We really do. What was last time you went bowling? Oh.

Recently. It's a thing I do when I go home a lot. Oh, okay. I love bowling. I do too until I get halfway through.

And then I'm like, this is because I'm not good at it. So like once you know you're not going to get over a hundred ever. Right. You know? But those shoes are so cute.

“I think it's like just a repetitive action and something to do.”

The keeps you from like standing around. Making awkward small talk.

I always kind of love that.

That's a good point. And it usually turns into something else. It might, you know, in the town where it's like now we're going to go to the buck horn. Yeah. That makes total sense.

I always go bowling or someone asked me to go. It's like, yeah. It's so fun. I was just talking about that. How I love.

I really want to do a weekly thing that repeats every week no matter what. Where it's like a thing you can always do that people will always be there. Whether it's like Majong or bowling or just like a dinner or something. Where you're just kind of like it's just the. The gathering itself is kind of like the practice.

Yeah. That's such an old lady thing to say. No, you've always like that. The like game night, you know? Yes, exactly.

Right. I never do it. She liked that. I know a book club.

I'm always threatening to fucking start a book club.

But the club is like homework club. Like you can't tell me what to do. Even though I agree to it. Maybe it was what I do the first voice. Like out there.

I've never, I've never been to a book club in my life. I've only seen them on the screen. I think it's really funny. I've never been invited to a book. I don't think they exist.

I don't think they exist in real life. I think people are fucking lying to us. I don't think they exist for girls like you and me. I think that's what it is. They're just like maybe next time.

Yeah. We're reading something way about your pay. People who will do the reading. Not by about the book in the group. Not get drunk first.

Not yell at people during the book. Not tell them they're wrong. No. That's very good point. I only say that because in the 90s we started a cold reading kind of scene class.

And it was just a bunch of comics who didn't want to be so bad at auditioning. But the majority of us would just get super drunk during the class. And then the people who started it got really bad. Oh my god. How do you try to work here?

We're like we're having fun. It's our class now. Bitch.

“Oh, just remember when everything was someone knows something.”

I love someone knows something. It's so comforting. So he's not eight seasons out now. Yeah. That's amazing.

He's Canadian, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's CBC. You can rely on the Canadians to come through.

Yeah. I turned out they have a lot of true crime. You guys. We think they're all innocent. And like, you know, like polite.

The preppy cousin of us. But no. They've got some shit on their shoes. Well, maple syrup and pie, how are you? They don't say that.

Don't they? All right. Well, so should we get into your story? You're crazy. Oh, you're crazy.

Sorry. This is so bad. All right.

“Let's listen to Karen's story about Matthew Hoffman and the 2010 tree murders.”

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guild season three podcast. This is a story about a horrendous situation that destroyed two families. It started more than seven years ago. When Cindy and Kenny were two forty-somethings

who had just gotten engaged days later. They walked into a scorched earth war. They never saw coming. Turn it on. Put your hands behind your back.

The cops gave it to my house and threw me the jail. And to Cindy's surprise, her fiance Kenny was charged with abuse in one of her children.

I never once doubted Kenny.

And I always doubted the accusation. On season three, a burden of guild, you'll hear a story about the length someone will go to in order to get what they want. This case has got to be one of the most despicable.

Listen to season three, a burden of guild, on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so this was a story that I wanted to do. When we were in Columbus.

Okay, but it's too awful. Good. So I'm going to go back. I know that these days, I've been doing lots of slightly off

kilter, lighter, whatever types of stories.

This is a fucking awful awful and recent murder. And you can't tell them why you can't do it at live shows.

Well, in live shows, well, first of all, we have to have stuff

that we can talk about and riff about. And like, and connect over and kind of go like, wait, what did you just say? Yeah. And when it's a, especially if it's a recent murder,

if children are involved, if it's unsolved, if it's, you know, just if it's, if it's just relentless horror. If it hits, to close the home. Yeah. Yeah, they're, you just don't want to, that's horrible.

“Yeah. And also, I think, everyone together, I mean,”

we've had times where we've talked about really hard stuff, but then, but it can't just be that way the whole time. So, but when I was looking this up, I was on, I was like, I think it might be worth it. Because there's an element to this that is so fascinating.

It's, it kind of transcends the horror of what happened. Well, I think we should do whatever we want when it's you and I. Yeah, right? And then there's Steven, but it live shows it's hard to do. Really horror.

Yeah.

Yeah, just like, look, I mean, there is an interesting element

to like, grieving with 2,000 people at a time. Yeah. Not in their body, yeah. Real. Okay.

It's just hard. But so I can just tell you this. Okay. As I tell me. I'm just going to tell you this.

No one else is listening. Steven, please put those headphones on more.

“So this is, this happened in Mount Vernon, Ohio, last November.”

Holy, like, as in four months ago? Four months ago. November, December, January. Oh, shit. Four fucking months ago.

Happy 2018, by the way. I can't even say that. It's Valentine's Day. Happy Valentine's Day. And then upcoming presidents day.

So on November 10th of last year, when Tina Hermann didn't show up for work at dairy queen, her boss goes over to her house to check and see what's going on. And when he gets there, he finds it littered with beer cans and covered in blood.

It was actually described as looking like a horror movie inside the house. Oh, God. So, of course, he immediately calls the police. Tina is not in the house. Her 13-year-old daughter's not in the house.

Her 11-year-old son's not in the house. And her friend, whose car is in the driveway, is not in the house. So immediately, the police start a mass of manhunt. There's people walking around on foot in the air, like the whole area goes crazy. The next night, Tina Hermann's pickup truck is found near the Kenyan College campus.

They actually, when they found the pickup truck, they did a lockdown on the school. Because they thought maybe the guy was nearby. Oh, shit. The police interview people that are walking around the area.

They don't find anything suspicious. Back at Tina Hermann's house, the police are processing the scene. They find Walmart bags with her seat. A Walmart bag with her seat inside. And the receipt shows purchasing of garbage bags and a large heavy duty tarp.

Never good. Not fully all the police are like, you know what? I remember the chapter in school. Bad fucking news. So they go to that Walmart that's on the receipt.

They check their surveillance video, the time they receive. And on it, they clearly shows a young, not very young, but a young brown-haired man. Probably in his early thirties buying these items at the store. And on the video, they can also see when he leaves. They see him drive by in his Yaris.

So Yaris, who is not expecting that, that's right. There are a lot of people drive Yaris's, probably. And this guy was one of them. So he, it's all like right there on the day. So the cops go to the DMV.

They search the records. They cross-check whatever Yaris is. They go to all the Yaris cars. Check Yaris. They arrest all of them for bad taste.

I'm joking. Oh my god. On slot of Yaris. I know it's a good car. How dare you?

I bought this with my own money. Although I have to tell you, my friend Tisha and I, we bought, I bought my Honda fit at the same time. She bought her Yaris. And she was trying to style between the two.

And I was always like, you got to go with this Honda fit.

“And she was like, no, I think I'm going to go with the Yaris.”

And I was just like, I felt so like, it was like smug. You see, like, versus USC. And she was like, goodbye. Yeah. You're not.

We're not on the same team anymore. Wow. I haven't spoken to her. That's amazing. That's amazing.

Oh, my shit. That's so deep. This Yaris shit goes with me. Okay. So they find out through the DMV records and his driver's license.

This man is Matthew Hoffman. He's a 30-year-old unemployed tree tremor. Then once they see the pictures, one of the officers goes, I fucking talked to that guy up at the college when we found the truck. No.

Yes. Like, one of the people he questioned, he was right nearby.

We're doing that. Sure. The trip. Right? Circle the.

Circle the troops.

“Circle the wagons is what most cops say when they think they have a person.”

Gather the wagons. Circle the troops. Gather our friends. And let us go out together and fight crime. Yes.

So they fucking send the swat team to this guy's house.

And so this basically takes four days.

So four days after the family's found missing, the cops kick his, I don't know how it happened. Kick it. The cops kick down the fucking door. Yeah.

Matthew Hoffman is sleeping on the couch inside in the living room. And are you ready? No. Your face looks unhappy. Well, it's just, it's not horrifying.

But it's this. They find the entire living room is filled with leaves. What? Here's pile of leaves. Well, heems.

Leaves. Um, piled so high that the police feared bodies might be buried underneath them. What the fuck? So many fucking leaves. Mount Vernon Police Detective Craig Fini told the Columbus dispatch.

So much runs through your mind. What if somebody's hiding under that pile?

“Or in this case, I thought, what if that's where he's hiding the bodies?”

What the fuck? Leaves. Leaves. They walked down the hall to the bathroom. No, don't do it.

You want to pull up these pictures? No. Uh-huh. This is how I found this story. And I'd stop me so cold.

I was just like, what in the fuck are we doing? Oh, my God. Oh, my God. So this is the bathroom. No, no.

I'm showing you the picture. The walls of the bathroom are lined with plastic shopping bags filled with leaves. And it looks insulated. It looks like insulation like before you put on the drywall. You put bags of leaves.

And thank you. Thank you. And of like, perfectly filled bags of leaves. Perfectly spaced, perfectly hung. Each one right up the same width, same depth of, you know,

it's not like sloppy bags of leaves hung on the wall. What the hiles of leaves hung the ground? I never heard of this. Because it just happened, I think. Oh, and so that's, yeah.

So just, it's, it's, it's not even light. It's just leaves. Legitum. It's not dirt. And it's not gravel.

It's just leaves. And there isn't that something that's absolutely from like a David Fincher made. Yeah, because it's one of those things where it's like, it doesn't mean anything, but it's so creepy.

Yes. As it is. It just like the moths and signs the land. Right. Where you're like, it's just moths.

It's just big of a deal. People collect insects. I guess. I mean, you know, a bit. They're a touch.

Yeah. But when that moth lands next to her. And when she's like, "Now you hear your phone, please?"

Um, I always have to get one of those in there.

Okay. So, uh, finally they go down into the basement. They do. And there's a door closed and it's barricaded with this big sewing machine cabinet thing.

When they break down a door, they get inside. They find Tina Hermann's 13-year-old daughter Alive. Ah. She's bound and gagged. And she's laying on a makeshift bed of leaves.

Still loves leaves. I mean, it's so, and it's this dank creepy basement, obviously. She's been raped. And she was wearing a plastic bag with holes cut for legs like a diaper. Ah.

So creepy. Oh my God. He's arrested to take an antica. How are you? The fuck did I not see this?

I don't know. Twitter's algorithms are really disappointing me. I mean, I was so, like, this was one of those ones. Or I was just like, I don't know.

“I think it's where I think this is the kind of thing that people that are interested”

to crime. When you hear a story where you're like, "Sorry, what are we doing? Like, what is this?" But I wasn't Columbus with you. And I was like, looking up Columbus murders to do for the show.

And I didn't fucking see this. Right. Okay, go on. I mean, I feel like it was breaking news. Most of the articles that I found to tell you about this were, they were waiting for,

like, basically, once they found the girl, they still didn't know where the family was.

And they still didn't know. They were like, we still have three people missing. Thank God. She's well. And just so you guys know, they did print her name when they first reported on the story.

Then when they realized she was a sexual assault victim, they stopped printing her name. So that's why I'm not saying her name. So they're questioning Matthew Hoffman. He's not saying anything. They said that this reporter that was writing this,

these stories are from the Columbus dispatch and also from the Denver Post. But they say there's hours of footage of police trying to question him and him just not saying a word. And then finally, he tells the police that he wants to confess because he has a bad dream about being at a food processing plan. Oh, no.

He opened up a trash bag at the food processing plan. And he saw a cut-up body parts.

“And he got a not an stomach and it all quote unquote came back to him.”

And so finally, he confesses to the murder of Tina Herman, her 11-year-old son, Cody, and her friend Stephanie Sprang, who's car was in her driveway.

He tells police that he waited in the woods across the street from Tina Herman's house. The night before he was up in a tree, leaves unemployed tree trimmer. He's got a tree issue. He's up in a tree, he watches the house on night at nine in the morning. He sees Tina Herman leave the house.

So he thinks the house is empty. And the garage door doesn't go down all the way. So he sees his, this is his chance to slip in. He goes into the house. He, he, he, he, he had a police.

Do we know how, or is this going to come up like how he knew who they were? Or he just, it's just a random. Well, he had already been arrested once before for burglarizing a house by slipping into an open garage door. Okay. So when he told police he actually had only gone in to burglarize the house.

They believed that it was basically an interrupted burglarie. Because he had done it once before and only burgled the house. Okay. And there's other, continuing circumstances in his life that are different on this one. But basically, Tina and her friend Stephanie came back to the house and interrupted him an hour after he broke in.

And so he stabbed them both to death. Holy shit. Yes. And then he's dismembering their bodies and the kids come home from school. So he stabs the 11-year-old boy to death in the doorway.

The 13-year-old daughter runs to her room. He grabs her. He ties her up with an electric fan cord. And he puts her in his truck. Or in his, it's, it's really weird because he did this thing where he had a Jeep.

But then he also used Tina's truck. Right.

“And that's why he's the one that left it at the college.”

Right. He had gone on foot back somewhere and he was walking back. Should drive the truck back to her house. And that's when the cops started talking to her. So he had the whole--

And he could play it cool. They didn't even suspect him. Yes. So something is fucking wrong with this dude. That's the old psychopath.

They don't get nervous. They don't. They can look somebody in the eye and be like, yeah. I'm, I'm just here on the bike path, chilling out. Yeah.

So what had happened is he put these dismembered bodies. And the little girl-- they don't think that the girl saw the house. Like, maybe she was blindfolded or something. Because she didn't know anything about her. Or was going up rather or dead?

No. She didn't know. She just knew she was kidnapped. Baby. So he dropped her off at his house.

Put her in that basement. Um, then left. He drove to the co-cosing. I'm sure I'm saying it wrong. The co-cosing wildlife area.

Uh, which was apparently he's a big outdoorsman. And he, uh, like, went there a lot. And camped out a lot. And, you know, like, trees a lot. Um, he, with a rope, uh, and pulley system.

Hmm. He pulled their body parts up and put them into a 60 foot hollow tree. What? And hid them there. So holy shit.

That, like, when we cross my mind? Yes. No, no, no, no. It's like, it's, it's beyond the perfect and most in, like, obscure hiding place. The police were, like, if we didn't make the deal.

Yeah. Because he said, I'll tell you where the bodies are. If you don't give me the death penalty.

The police were, like, if we didn't do that, we would have never found these bodies.

That was my mind. Because I have this, you know, this, in mind of, like, What, like, where are all the, like, there are over the whole globe. There are bodies hidden in crazy forests and weird places. Yeah.

That wouldn't even fucking cross my mind. Now I have a whole, another fucking thing to worry about. Well, and also, because it's up so high. That, like, it's all this premeditation. It's this plan.

It's this, like, everything about it.

“And then it also makes me go, like, oh, who put Bella in the witch on?”

Yeah. It's that weird, like, the tree thing. It's real. Oh, God. Now I have a whole, another thing to worry about.

Yeah. It's so crazy.

We were going to lump it right into just the forest issue that we always do.

We always do. So I let under that. Yeah. It's just not going to be buried this time. Right.

Right. Basically, he planned to then, once he went and picked that truck up, he was going to take it back to her house, burn the house down. And, like, get rid of all the evidence. That was his plan.

Mm-hmm. And then he told police that he also planned to, he said he was really nice to the daughter,

He was going to, he, they played video games.

They read books. They watched movies. Mm-hmm.

“He gave her hamburgers, blah, blah, blah.”

And then he was just going to let her eventually let her run away. She'd be home by Christmas. This is what he told the fucking police. Like, he had this whole fantasy that he was actually really good. He was a good guy.

And he was really good. And he didn't want to do these things. But he was putting this in. What a fucking dick. Well, and also just mental illness gone beyond that.

Just untreated, terrible, you know, whatever. So, essentially, so they have, of course, these newspapers have interviewed the neighbors.

And they, this guy has so many neighbors.

It's amazing. They all have something to say. One of the neighbors said there's only two trees near this guy's house. So, she's, neighbor, Jeanette Callenberg said he can't have possibly got that many leaves from that tree.

So he asked all leaves in here from somewhere. Do we know what the deal with the leaves are? I mean, he's just obsessed with them. Yes. It's like, there was a, they did interview.

“And I think this is from the, the Columbus dispatch.”

They interviewed a guy named Dr. Angie Barrel, who is the director of the New York Center for nearest psychology and forensic behavioral science. So that guy says you would have to talk to this guy to understand what the connection is.

But it's clear that this guy is mentally ill. Beyond what we associate with normal serial killers or murderers or psychopaths. Because normally serial killers are not technically mentally ill. They have these character disturbances. But they know what's happening and they know that they're doing wrong.

They like it. And that's part of the reason they're doing, they get pleasure and gratification from how the terrible things they're doing. And the torture that they're inflicting on other people. He thinks that this guy had some other thing happening

and there was like obviously lots of other issues in hand. God, it's so fucking nuts. So the neighbor, let's see. So Jeanette said, we, I don't know if those leads could have come from because there's new trees around here.

Then a, a neighbor named Henderson Butcher says that Matthew Hoffman was friendly. But he used to play around the trees a lot around there a lot. He'd throw ropes up in the trees and had like a hammock up in there.

So in some part of the neighborhood that did have trees, he would go in and be in them all the time. Okay, fine. Right. Don't find that.

Fine. That's fine. Just go do that. Yeah. A lot of people like trees.

Donna Davis, D.A. W. N.A. My favorite spelling of Donna ever. It's all the good 70s names combined into one name. She was another next driver and she said that she told her children to stay indoors when Matthew Hoffman was outside.

Let's show. Yeah. And she said that he had moved in alone a year before. And that his girlfriend had lived with him temporarily. And then she moved out a month before the murders.

And she said, she, this is what she said to the Denver Post. He'd sit up and listen to us up in a tree. He had a hammock and he would just sit there and listen to us. Oh, my God. She was just different.

He was very different. Oh, my God. She said that he walked to foundation park almost every day. And was a, quote, nature person who collected leaves. So I guess foundation park was the park nearby that the other neighbors talking about.

Yeah. And he would just go up in there. Also, his house was in foreclosure. And it had been started in January.

“So he was, I think, at the end of, like, a serious, probably psychotic break.”

Yeah. He makes that huge confession. And oh, he also killed the fucking family dog. No. Yeah.

So once he makes the confession. And he said he asked the investigator. If I write down the location of the bodies. He hadn't given away the location yet. And he said, if I write these down, will, can I then make a fake attempt to escape?

And you shoot me. And the, and the cop was like, no, we're not going to do it that way. And so then he wouldn't talk. He wouldn't tell them where the bodies were for two full days. And then he finally, he finally told them that whole story that I just told you.

And the police, of course, when they saw, we're just like, yeah, we had to,

we had to make this deal with them because we would have never known.

Sure. So in the end, Matthew Hoppin, Hoffman, pled guilty to 10 felonies, including aggravated murder and rape. And he was given a life sentence without the possibility of parole. And the Knox County prosecutor John Thatcher said,

It has to rank in Ohio history as one of the worst homicide cases ever. My favorite murder history, too. I mean, dude.

“So like, I thought those leaves would like have something about like the,”

he buried the bodies and had to put the leaves somewhere. Well, it's not just right. It's just he's, but that psychiatrist that they talked. You said, you know, obviously, this is all, it's his, he has a some kind of a delusion and some kind of obsession.

So in his mind, somewhere in his mind, and he would be the only person I'd be able to explain what that connection is. But right now, there's nobody that can say, oh, he did trees, because murder because of trees. But like just coming upon a picture of a living room filled with fucking leaves.

The bathroom is more troubling to me. I've just perfect bags lined up and like whatever is stapled to the wall. It's almost like inverted hoarders.

Like the same feeling I had the first time I saw hoarders.

But it's organized and only leaves. Yeah. And on the wall. And then you gotta be like, what happened? What's going on?

Tell me everything now. Yes. Meanwhile, it's a grown man that climbs and plays in trees. So like, bought it, but was able to buy a house and have a girlfriend. And like, how, I don't, it's so crazy.

And plan the disposal of bodies in a really smart way. Yes. Well, yes, because once he was in it, it was like, that is the truth. Like, that, um, that cycle, just that gave that earth, psychiatrist for whatever was that gave the difference. It's like, yes, he was mentally a little clearly.

But he also knew what he did was wrong, covered it up. Like, yes, he, he had, there was something going on.

But you can't, he, it's the insanity defense.

I don't think could apply because he, he covered up and hit those bodies. And hit a girl and hit a girl. Yeah. And right to fucking girl, like, you know, this wasn't some kind of like, I went all over the plate.

This isn't like Richard Chase that, yeah,

“Sacramento vampire where you're like, what the fuck are you doing?”

Yeah. Yeah. God damn it. Anyway, that's the Matthew Hoffman case of Mount Vernon. Jesus.

I don't know how I would have acted on stage to this. Well, I mean, it would have felt like that. It's like, like, we're just like, oh, man, well, mine isn't much happier. Okay, but it's, but it's interesting. Okay, good.

All right. That's all we need for you. People. You're not. What?

What? This is our job. Okay. Oh, that's a dark one. We are back, Karen.

Do you have any updates?

“Only that Matthew Hoffman is still serving his life sentence”

at Toledo Correctional Institution. And he remains ineligible for parole. And that's it. Wow. Yeah.

All right. This is an episode where we both just do terrible stories. That's right. Let's go right into Georgia's. It's the story about Little Gregory.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season three podcast. This is a story about a horrendous situation that destroyed two families. It started more than seven years ago when Cindy and Kenny were two 40 somethings who had just gotten engaged.

Days later, they walked into a scorched earth war they never saw coming.

Turn up, let your hands find your back. The cops give it to my house and threw me the jail. And to Cindy's surprise, her fiance Kenny was charged with abuse in one of her children. I never once doubted Kenny. And I always doubted the accusation.

On season three of burden of guilt, you'll hear a story about the length someone will go to in order to get what they want. This case has got to be one of the most despicable. Listen to season three of burden of guilt on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Paperlandier fans. Carry Brown seen in Fred Armison here. The dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form. We're launching pod landier AO rewatch. Our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of portlandier together.

Breaking down sketches, going deep on our iconic characters and pulling back the curtain on how it all got made. And we'll also be joined by the people who helped to bring it all to life. guest stars, collaborators and friends, including director Jonathan Christle, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician, any man and many more.

Kyle is going for it. You fully improvised, not just words, but a song about it. I thought you were all going to write a song. I remember you thinking about it. Listen to pod landier, AO rewatch on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers.

And this week we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of. Millie Bobby Brown.

“We talk about her new movie and all the home's three family life and all the amazing things”

she has going on right now. Plus we find out what she really feels about the strange things in it. You have over 60 animals. I don't know whether number 60 and I've really got to figure that out. There have been plenty of sheep in my bed.

It's a big bed. Literally sleeping in the bed. Listen to hey Jonas on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, well this is when I hadn't ever heard of. Okay.

Even though it's basically the like the French jambine.

Oh, have you heard of this one? Madeleine McCann? No. It's the French Madeleine McCann. Okay, natural French citizen. That's English. Right.

It's the, it's the Madeleine McCann jambine. All falsé. In French. God. French bread.

French dressing. With a side of French.

“This is Le Faire Dipitite Gregory or the case of little Gregory.”

Oh, yeah. Okay. Already awful. It's one of France's most high profile murders. So in 1981, in the small village of near volon in eastern France.

26-year-old John Marie Wilman is promoted to form in at the car parts factory, where he works.

So after his promotion, he is on Marie and his wife Christine, his 24. Like so young, right? Yeah, start receiving threatening anonymous phone calls from a person. Who knows a shit ton about their family. And he calls himself the Raven.

Oh, no. Yeah. What is? Yeah. So this person is calling threatening.

He has a, this person is a horse voice or it's a woman disguising her voice. I listened to one of the recordings from way back when and it sounds like a fucking woman to me. For sure. Was it super creepy? Yeah.

It's not even creepy. They're having a conversation. Oh, no. All right. So the person is angry with John Marie. Once John Marie had been promoted, they think he's putting on airs.

He's caught a lot of money. He's not joining the union. And so a lot of the articles about this in like every video is in French. Sure. So it's really hard to get information.

I have to do a lot of Google translation bullshit. So some of it might be off like the Raven thing. It's called the Crow and a lot of different like translations. Which is a totally different horrible death. Yeah.

Yeah.

So I always ask me for French stuff because I took,

I took all the way up through French too. So the long. The long is the long. It's the longest. Right.

There's some fucked up things there. Okay. Okay. So they're pissed off at John Marie. The villains, they alert the police and they begin recording the phone calls.

And so at that point the phone calls stop and instead threatening letters start coming.

“Do you think the Raven knew the phone calls are being recorded?”

Yeah. Because it sounds like someone who was close to the family. Oh, okay. Maybe even do like a mole. Yeah.

That's totally a mole. So the threatening letters start coming in. These rambling letters written in quote long handed and low class slang. Oh. The letters are signed the Raven and say such things as "I'll have all your hides."

And I hate you so much. The day you die, I will spit on your grave. And it sent to the whole family. Like, you know, the grandparents and all these things. God.

So a window of the house is broken in the Hillman house while Christine is at home alone with a couple's young son named Gregory. And also all the tires are slashed on the family cars. So someone is threatening them and it's a small town and the person is a lot about them. The harassment goes on for three years.

Whoa. Without the villains or the police having any idea who was behind it. And then on October 16th, 1984, at around 5.30 pm, Christine, who's inside doing some ironing, goes out to bring Gregory in.

He's four years old at this point. And she had left him outside to play in the sand beside their house. And he's not there. Oh, God. I don't know if it's worse.

She gets in her car to drive around the small town looking for him thinking maybe he just wandered off. But at that point, John Marie's brother receives a call at work from an unidentified person telling him, "I have taken the boy." So a search begins, but by 9/3 that same night, Gregory is found in the Valon river for miles from his home.

Oh, God. Yeah.

So little Gregory, he's the sweet boy.

“There's this photo of him in the same way that the photo of John Penae looking on smiley and beautiful.”

He's known to us for ages. This photo of Gregory is the same thing. He's sweet, smiling boy with messy curly hair, little four-year-old. He's found bound hand and foot. He's fully dressed. There's a photo taken at the scene by a journalist.

It's a roped firefighter holding in his arms and like taking Gregory out of the river. He's fully dressed in his blue anorac, dark green velvet trousers, and his like beanie still on his head. Oh. And it's published in the press the next day and it traumatizes all of France,

and everyone becomes obsessed with this case. Yeah. So he's dead. Did I say that? Yeah, I mean.

Yeah. Okay. The next day, Christine and John Marie received an anonymous letter that says, "To John Marie address to him, I hope you die of grief, boss." Your money can't give you back your sign.

Here is my revenge. You stupid bastard. Holy fuck. In the same way that the John Benefuckin letter was, it's so similar, right? Oh.

Remember? Yes.

“But that was a ransom, a fake ransom letter.”

Right. But it was like, your money can't help you. Yeah. That's true. That's right. Like, I'm jealous of your pictures. Okay.

So the investigation doesn't fucking start. Well, the lead investigator put on the case. He's the only investigating magistrate in the district. He's 32-year-old John Michele Lambert.

It's his very first investigation.

No. 32. Can you, I wouldn't trust a 32-year-old to watch my fucking purse for five minutes. Dude.

Sorry, Steven. How do you? Thirty. Five. Wait a second. My wallet's gone. Steven.

No, that's too young. Too young. You need experience, people. Yeah. It's a big fucking different.

“You need people when it's a important thing.”

People have to know what they're doing. They have to have experience. They can't be in a state if I need to prove myself. That's exactly right. That's right.

It's less like, I don't know what I'm doing. Then I don't know what I'm doing. And I need to act like I know what I'm doing. Yes. So I'm going to fucking overdo it.

I can't listen. That's exactly what happens. You can't help me. Oh, yo, yo. What's the same thing with the John Bernay?

When they sent the young and experienced cops on Christmas fucking day. All right. So. Thirty-two year old John Michelle Lambert. First investigation.

First of all, he fails to secure the crime scene.

And he also doesn't order full autopsy. So the autopsy has been criticized forever because it was incomplete and sloppy. So they don't know. There's no bruises on the body. Pathologist attribute the death to drowning and contact with the cold water.

They're not totally sure. They disagree whether he had been drowned in the river or in tap water. Because the water and his lungs contain none of the microscopic organisms that one would find in a river. Oh, that's awful. I know, but they didn't do it.

But Lambert was like. Kind of trying to spare the parents by not making them over autopsy poor Gregory. It doesn't work. Oh, no. Unfortunately.

I mean, ultimately. Yeah. So from the beginning, suspicion falls on the family of John Marie, the father. His parents, brothers, aunts, uncles and cousins all live nearby. And when John Marie is promoted to form and way back when some of the family members had been unhappy about it.

So they think the person who was writing letters, the Raven and the killer might be part of this family. Out of like jealousy. Yeah. Basically. And he has a big family that all lives in this area.

So police force hundreds of 140 members of thevilleman family to take handwriting and dictation test to compare them to the letters and phone calls that have been going on. Wow. 140. Wow. They copied pages of the writing, including the text of the last message from the Raven.

And after a month after Gregory's murder, the 15 year old sister-in-law of John Marie's cousin. So John Marie, the dad of Gregory, his cousin, his name is Bernard Lourouche. His cousin's sister-in-law. This is confusing. His 15 years old sister.

She's just like, nerdy, red-headed, 15-year-old. Totally early '80s. Like, no, maybe a derand around shirt on. But like, no makeup. She's not like, yeah, I'm crack or whatever.

Can you jack it? I see her. Yeah. A comb holding one side of her hair. Yeah, but like, really nerdy comb.

Yeah. Uh, a math comb. You know. Yeah, it's a ruler. Uh-huh.

She says she's 15-year-old. She comes forward and tells investigators that the cousin, her brother-in-law, who's married

Oh, wow.

She tells them that the day Gregory was killed.

She had been picked up by Bernard from high school and taken to the Wilman's house. They picked up Gregory and headed for the river. And then they parked in Bernard went off with him and came back alone. Wow. So she's fucking pinning it on her sister's husband.

Okay. Is this, like, smiley, big, boisterous look in mustache-y-o, messy '80s hair, dude. Okay. Played by, like, a young, um,

what's his rosanne's husband on rosanne? John Goodman? Like, a young, John Goodman. I was thinking Vincent's an Afriel. No.

Okay. More jovial. Okay. Looking. Okay.

Got it. Yeah. Yeah. Good time guy. Totally.

Got it.

“But, like, why are you smiling in appropriately in this photograph?”

Oh. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, there's a photograph of the, the cousin, his wife, and his wife's, and, uh, the young, her name's Mirial Boyle.

There's a photograph of the three of them. And I just want to know if it's taken before or after the murder, because it's inappropriately smiling and creepy. Okay. You know what I mean?

Yes. French people are screaming there what they think about really happened and I want to know they're like I really was supposed to smile like this is way right so why are you smiling okay? I knew I used to work with an over-smiler who actually I'm positive was a so-so because they don't know when it's appropriate So they just do it the whole time right and they it's this thing of it's almost like that weird hypnosis kind of thing

March just like yes everything's fine like I'm trying to control you with their mouth Right with their teeth they learn that people they learn that people mimic things so they just

Fucking do it. Yeah, like here. This is friends friends. See? Yes. He was like someone always trying to show you that they're

Happy and smiley right they're covering something and you know inherently but you're like but they seem so happy Yeah, I have to mimic what they're doing because They're setting the state this they're setting the tone of the room which is right we love everything and then when you get older and Stop giving a shit about anything you realize like you don't have to do that like when I stop when I stop being that way Which I am inherently like a person who will mimic a person's happiness because I'm just uncomfortable that way

Yeah, and I don't do it then I'm like oh, this isn't right. Yeah, I don't want to be here

“It's well because it's like what is that why is this person trying to control me this hard?”

Like what is what do they not want me to be paying attention to right? I mean this is that photograph In a nutshell from the 80s okay with a mustache Steven Um Okay, French Steven Uh-huh

We We okay, blah blah blah blah so she says that blah blah and then okay, so Bernard the Skyburnard the cousin and John Marie and played together as children so they're from the same clan

It's like a clan where the family it's almost like Fargo that second season when they're like yeah

The big crime fight crime being family. The crime. They didn't fight crime. They primed But they had grown apart over the years and Bernard was an unkempt often perfane man with a mustache and He and his wife they also had a four-year-old child, but he was had a learning disability Okay, so they both had four-year-old children, but Gregory was this beautiful smiling happy baby That everyone loved and John Marie had been promoted. He was getting all this money. His dad was in charge of

The plant will meanwhile Bernard seemed to have a shitty fucking life right so They didn't socialize anymore was John Marie Christine, but so he wouldn't have known about the family a lot Enough to write these raven letters, but one of John Marie's brothers was good friends with the rush. So he would have known. Okay That did it a he didn't like the film the villains

“blah blah blah blah. Okay, so at so so this chick murals like my fucking brother-in-law to that on 15 what's up?”

Yeah, at the spot where Maryel said They had stopped the investigators find a it's a vile of Insulin and a syringe. They find on the ground. Okay They make the investigators think that Gregory had been put into a hypoglycemic coma before being thrown into the river

Okay, so that made him unable to so he unable to Do any right and he was also tied up. Yeah, so But but there had been no toxicology report because the autopsy wasn't dumb correctly So they didn't know they didn't look for needle marks anything like that and so Maryel says she wasn't aware of what her uncle was doing. She had just been sitting in the car

But it turns out that Maryel's mother Janine was a diabetic and that Maryel was her insulin injector. Oh

But then why would she find go to the cops and say he did it like if she's involved?

“That's a great question. So why would she do it? No, it's why would she do it anyway?”

There's a lot of questions here. Yeah, I mean, like that's the first and she's 15 of those and as an adult and knows there's right and wrong

And your fucking bullshit fights with families don't matter Yeah, because that's such a huge it's such a stretch from I hate my rich cousin who gets everything To I'm going to kill a child. I like not even kill your cousin But to take away the child is such a I want you to suffer specifically. Yes, the most crazy. It's so awful right so Um

They test spring arts handwriting and experts say he had written two of the poison pen letters Including the one sent the day after the murder. So they say it's it's Bernard it matches it matches him

And this is in the time where they knew nothing about handwriting analysis like that's back in the zodiac times

“Or they're like that's not him. It's almost like it's in a time when they thought they knew everything about handwriting analysis and now”

We know that they know nothing about handwriting you know anything opposite where they're like you can tell everything from that Yeah, no, no, no, no, no, you can't do that right you're making all kinds of insane assumptions Exactly, and you sound really fucking smart. Yeah, right so Bernard is arrested and then Mirio gets the the 15 year old gets sent back to her family's house and a couple days later retracts her entire statement What everyone is like your miracle like was bullied by her family and to retracting that statement

Oh, everyone thinks that okay How do you turn on the family? How dare you on the brother and law this you know there's like insane like family like going back probably hundreds of years with in this small Community with this family right are these families And against the prosecutors advice Lamber the police investigating 31 year old dude, so the police investigator even though

The public prosecutors like don't fucking do this they let Bernard go Because she retracts her statement and they're like well then let's let her go but then that's it

“Well, there's it cuz then there's no evidence that he's involved. Well, they were saying there's other evidence right so why was he held?”

Who you okay on the day of his release John Marie Gregory's dad In front of a bunch of journalists vows that he would kill his cousin Bernard of course He did right he vows to kill Bernard Two journalists to journalists. Oh, the lorosh family tries to get police protection but the police are like nope. Oh no

You can't have it. Oh, and so true to his fucking word On March 29th John Marie wait outside his cousin's house and when he gets home pulls up he fucking approaches his cousin Bernard and shoots him with a hunting rifle. Oh fuck Bernard dies Oh my god, but hasn't dies Goodbye John goodman. He's out of the picture. John goodman. John goodman. Jean goodman. Jean. Good mom instead. It's like it fucking

John Ramsey had shot you know his bot. It's just insane. Yes. These steps people are taking Also, it seems like reverse police work where it's like let them go don't investigate like don't get details going Yeah, like everything is it feels like arrest someone now quickly and then let him go and then try this and it's just like Amping everyone up. Yes, and especially small town like anywhere in the world like a folder. Yeah, you know exactly Small town life where everyone knows everyone's business and they're gossip and they're pressure

Exactly, so Bernard dies. John Marie immediately trends himself in and he sent him to five years for the killing whoa. Yeah, meanwhile Lambert the police dude is like I know who fucking did this. I'll tell you who fucking did this and he starts to build a case against Gregory's mother Christine whoa For the murder of her son at this point she's six months pregnant too. Let's add that in for fun

Because this is a fucking lifetime movie. Yes. He's saying that the mother killed her son. Uh-huh. Okay This 33 year old

Second press or investigator

He's been 31 32 in 33 year old. The same. Everyone knows. Well time is passing. Okay, so three locals Who worked with Christine's tour that they saw her at the post office on the day before Gregory's death when the

You know like they're saying they saw her male the revenge letter. They're saying they saw her the day the

“Revenge letter was mailed at the post office. Okay, all right”

Graphologists argued that there was an 80% chance that she was the letter's author So again with the fucking John Beney ransom letter right and we're all like right but then they'd already said that he But he signed they said yeah Yeah, they already said that the cousin was right if they're just changing it per the st. Okay And string that was identical to

What was used to tie up Gregory is Found in the seller of the the Wilman's home. Oh, no, but it's like

The bag I could have taken it there. That's the that's the one string they sell in this village sure

Also in the Ravens letters he accuses Christine of killing Gregory So they start to believe what the fucking Raven is saying Because Gregory had been conceived so it's their saying Christina had been knocked up with Gregory in an extra marital affair

“And that's why she killed her son, which ultimately wasn't true”

Proving to be intro that's fucked up. Yeah, because then they're just floating salacious shit that people love to repeat and keep in mind this whole time If you were alive during the jambine rmsy Investigation it is the the fucking media is going out of their fucking minds. Yeah, you know front page Jigalossi bullshit and every grocery store. I don't know what they have in France. That's equivalent to that It's going on everyone is eating it up and all these crazy

Theories are being you know just thrown it out. Yeah, I think it's a they have one big magazine called pachy match And It's just pictures of people smoking and then terrible stories like that. That's what it is. Yeah, it's there Yeah, Christine is and Christine ends up getting charged with the murder of her son No fucking way. Oh, because it's this guy's idea. Yeah, yeah, he's the the lambs

They have a king of police He's a French king of police. He is the king so the king of police lamber Charges Christine with or this murder of her son based on this evidence Places are in a pre trial detention in July of 1985 in protest. She goes on a fucking 11-day hunger strike and is released And it isn't until sorry that works. I guess she's pregnant

“Oh, no, yeah, so she's released and it isn't until but they also I think didn't have been”

And like anything to hold her on right cut to 1993 it isn't until 1993 when the case is taken over by Another investigating judge finally someone has hopefully over 50 Murray Simon for real that she's cleared So between 1985 and 1993 people are speculating whether or not it's her Constantly and he and Murray Simon is like Does some fucking you know judging magic thing sprinkle something on her that's like she's never allowed to be fucking tried for this again

Like oh good makes it so she can never be brought up as a suspect again. Yeah, just pretty amazing

Folks like is not double jeopardy No, because she had never been brought to trial. Oh, but he was just saying like this is now put to rest Yeah, you can't break her up as a fucking suspect again It's pretty decent. Yeah, the mother of the dead child. Right. Yeah, and like photos of her man Like at this time our heartbreaking. There's a lot of photos going on and it's so 80s and so sad

Okay, and then in 2000 the year 2000 you've heard of it The case is reopened when Christine's family demands that DNA tests are carried out on the fucking stamps that are in the fucking letters Yes, yes, yes, unfortunately And there's hundreds of these letters Three separate traces of DNA are found but none of them are identified

What for some reason none of these fucking okay? Not much happens until this past June of 2017 whoa yeah, okay, we're both fucking we're all about this fucking episode. I love it. So in June 32 years after Gregory's murder 32 years No one has been taken into custody for the murder since 1985 when his mother was fucking taken in the custody

So no one has even been a suspect Three people in connection with the case are taken into custody. Whoa. Okay, ready for this. Yes, so Okay, the ant uncle of John Marie Gregory's father and Bernard the dead cousin Jacqueline Jacob she's 72 and her husband Marcel is 71 are arrested. No fucking way fucking old people

They were like in their 40s at the time

So okay, it's so fucking confusing. So Marcel Jacob the the husband the dude is one of the younger brothers of okay, it's basically John Marie's

dead married Marcel's sister Okay, it's Gregory's great-am uncle got it. Okay They're charged with kidnapping and confinement but not the murder saying they were responsible for the murder of Gregory since he would not have died unless he had first been kidnapped. So they think fucking this chick Jacqueline who's now 72 is the fucking mastermind

And this whole entire thing and made Bernard Made was the letterwriter and the woman. It sounds like a woman. She's the raven. Yeah, she's the raven But they're all involved in all hit this family and the day of Bernard actually did the murder But she was like the distraction and the mastermind Wow, this is like the second season of Fargo. Yeah, I mean totally like it really is

“Because also it's just that like what for what are you doing?”

Like what is this plan totally and why the kid yeah? It's such a Sick it's like to hurt as much as possible Also question our Albert and Monique Villman the parental grandparents of Gregory 86 and 85 years old So Gregory's fucking grandparents on his father's side on jolly shell side or question as well Okay, like everyone hated john

Marie and we're in on this Even his own parent. They're I mean they're questioned. Wow So the charges against the great and an uncle Follow a modern handwriting and like a modern think god handwriting and linguistic analysis of some 2000 letters of the raven letters and voice recordings that lead police to conclude that the authors are a man

Okay More than a hundred witnesses are also interviewed some 12,000 pieces of evidence run through and advanced artificial intelligence program called anacrim Which sounds fucking so cool that locates potential suspects a given moments and uncover is inconsistent Season statements and alibis how it's I think it's basically like this person says I was there and this person said You were like it's and the pings are from here and puts them all together and it's like whatever they're saying isn't true

There's no way they could have been there because it's basically based on like how we're digitally and Kind of in some way recorded at all time. I don't even think that at that point

“I think it's just based on statements. Who's in here who said you were there you said you were here?”

Oh, that makes sense because they're they're talking to so many people so it's like them all together and they're like this person Wasn't where they said they were based on everyone's testimony and it's scary part scariest part about anacrim Is that they're also those robots that can open doors now? Did you see that video today? Yes, there's a that bothered me so much It bothered me all day long like I didn't watch more than him walking because it looked like a spider It looks like a spider and then there was a part where it turns before it opens the door with a creepy clunk vacuum cleaner

tube no and it does this like click-click where it moves really fast to one side and it's so unnatural Like it looks very animal like and then it goes click-click and you're like oh, what are we? I don't even know what this is. It's like we want the end days to come. Yeah, we're forcing it quick Yeah, it's like we're begging it and creating the end days. Yeah, it's like some some really Smart guy that loves robots and computers. Yeah, also watched the Terminator too many times

And he's like we got to make this happen. But he never saw the beginning of the Terminator like the first scene in the boardroom

Right, this all looks great and he didn't watch the romantic parts because I argued that the Terminator the first one is one of the most romantic movies of all time It's pretty beautiful. Yeah, God and he goes to see his wife and sees her gardening. Is that the right movie? I think yes when he goes and he walks by before he knows like he's he's something and he's like that Yeah, also just you gotta love a guy that keeps a picture with him of the girl that he loves Can I just tell you that term? I don't know a year it came out of him, but it was way too early for me to watch it and that scene in the boardroom in the beginning

When the Terminator just kills everyone it was so traumatic for me. I bet Yeah, no, that's it's terrible. It's it's this horrifying amazing amazing movie so good though Can I tell you a quick can I just do a quick sidebar of Valentine's Day always Valentine's Day that just reminded me the picture thing just reminded me we have family friends named the mull keenes. This is my one of my dad's best friends is Kevin Gary and his sister Marilyn mull keen

“Is the woman remember that high school picture I showed you where I'm leaning against a ladder and I have the almost a unit brow”

always where you look like one of Kelly bondies best friends

You look like Kelly bondies like why Kelly by me got into trouble. That's right. I'm her smoking friend. Yes

And so she took Christine's senior portrait. She took mine. She took everybody. She's like a really great photographer And when we were I can't remember where we were one time She told me the story of how her and her husband Tom like got together They were it like childhood he was friends with her With Kevin and with their the boys and they're in the Gary family. They were all on vacation at the Russian river

“I think the boys were like 14 or 13 and she was like 11 or 12 and I tell the story because Marilyn died in”

November of cancer and it makes me super sad because I hadn't seen her in a long time And she's truly one of the coolest she was like one of those cool people of your parents friends We're like, oh, I want to talk to her. She's like, I want to tell you how it is because no one else is yes like she really was legit RAD lady and I'm very sad that she's passed away

But but I still have this story and I love it so much so she is a 12-year-old girl Is watching these boys play and rough house and they all they they all grabbed Tom and Who was like you know or older brother's cute friend and they're about to throw him into the Russian river and so he pulls his wallet out of his back pocket And he tosses it to Marilyn He goes hold that for me as they throw him into the water and she catches it and it falls open in her hands

“And he has a picture of her in his wallet and they were married for 51 years”

And that is my favorite that's just a little sidebar valentine's day story. It's my favorite love story of like When you are a 12-year-old girl and they're like a boy. The idea that a boy would have your school picture in his wallet Like you're the girl like like love and then actually they actually end up married crush the crush you have a 12-year-old

will never it's just never

It never burns that break never again because it's so innocent and it's also so like idealistic like you you know It's like when you're 12-year-old you don't pick bad boys you pick like yeah It's like oh, he's nice or like he said something nice to me Right, or he has freckles or some stupid some dumb shit or he's just in the living room Sometimes it's that but I love I mean to me like my brother. Oh, that's my favorite valentine's story

I just sidebarged you so hard. Sorry, but that was beautiful. Oh, he got good. I love it Let's get back. Okay, the Jacob's alibi so it the amicrons like people pop Machine and and the the old folks the Jacob's alibi or quote unconfirmed and unsubstantiated So amicrons like hell fucking now. Oh You lying we'll fucking lies we need an acrimine an acrimine when you're in your 40s you're fucking lying

“Also arrested this fucking mural bowl remember her the fucking little red 15-year-old”

She's arrested this point for complicity and murder and non-report of a crime

So they're like you knew more than you were saying at the time yeah, and we're finally getting down to cases

However, so she goes on a hunger strike again for a few days Whatever a month after They're arrested Let's go back remember remember John Michel Lambert the 30 whatever the fuck-year-old Constigator he got taken off of the case. Yeah in July of 2017

Just a few months ago. He's 65 years old. He's found dead in his apartment from suicide. Why a plastic bag over his head By 1987 He had been replaced by Marie so as we said and Marie's right at the time in his personal notebooks That Lambert had an intellectual disorder and he said I am in the midst of a miscarriage of dust justice and all its horror

about the accusations against Gregory's mother In his suicide note Lambert proclaims his search and T about the innocence of Bernard But he says he no longer has the strength to fight so at this point he still thinks

That I don't know the mother is responsible or whatever the whatever who whatever he thinks that Bernard is not

Not guilty right he can't let go of his own first instinctual theory right yeah

We also learned several other letters have been sent since the restart of the investigation in June Prosecutor has been threatened with death by the Raven what the Ravens bath letters are still being fucking written holy shit by 2014 nearly 3,000 press articles about 50 You know papers TV movie and 15 books have been have been made about this case and it's still ongoing and so we will

The affair of the petite Gregory

“Okay, so little Gregory that is so heavy. How will we never heard that? I've never heard any of that. I must have seen it late night”

in one of those listy things that you never heard of and saw this photo of the sweet little boy

But this he's so French and cute and sweet messy little hair and horrible. It's just awful and also just that it sounds like things are so bad so entrenched that people have just went insane like they were surrounded by their family and their competition and there are small town bullshit. Well, it's like you look at this story like how could this have happened and then this happened and it's so insane and they're like well the same thing happened when you're on banana

I'm still fucking casting aspersions and being like it was the brother of course it was this her it was that and then the mom dies of cancer and I'm still like maybe she had something to do with it or let her let her let her look like her handwriting and yeah we're doing the exact same thing because you want some fucking clarity yeah just want so much a step forward and go yes all this other shit has happened

it's the same with Jack the Ripper but you just want someone to come and go we finally have the one

we have who did is the answer the answer clean clear you know not involving 17 relatives or

“whatever just like who fucking whose plan was this and who did it. Well I think and fucking French”

people please let me know whatever one thinks because I have no way of knowing if everyone's like no what are you talking about everyone knew this person was an involved right that I'm saying is guilty I have no way you know I can't give my opinion because I can't fucking understand videos like I'm just gonna have what's going on for that like literally there's like five articles in English and like two videos that you can put subtitles on you know faster but I'm speed of a

hundred of asking they're like no I don't understand any of it but I want to know I know

so well that would be amazing if people actually have the like insider scoop of here's what

we think yeah I think whatever one thinks is that the that this great eminacle the great ant especially is like the TV is fucking matriarch of the family who plan the whole thing including

“alibi's and Bernard did it fuck but your own family it's just dark I mean yeah I think it's just”

like this anger jealousy situation oh you ending this was showing me this bowling socks again because everything is sad and awful and it's the only light we have in our lives what if I hold up a bowling sock every time things go so so dark into the human existence of all I want is a bowling socks even look at it Steven look at the bowling socks even was really bent over his really bent over just now for feeling his French feelings and then we just have to remember

these bowling socks just feelings are stronger than regular feelings God damn that's awful I know okay we're back are there updates for this story yes so in 2017 charges filed against Jaclyn and Marcel Jacob and Miriel Bull were dropped within a year due to legal technicalities in June of 2017 Miriel's cousin Patrick Fever told police that in 1984 her family had physically abused Miriel to get her to recant her testimony against Bernard Miriel has denied this in a

cues Patrick of lying in 2018 she published breaking the silence of book detailing her involvement in the case in it she maintains her innocence and doubles down that the police coerced her into implicating Bernard in January 2020 a French appeals court declared Miriel's 1984 detention by police to be unconstitutional and because of this statement's Miriel had made well in custody had to be removed from the case file statement she made well not in custody however like her

initial allegations against Bernard remain in it in April 2020 Monique Wilman Gregory's grandmother died from COVID-19 she was 88 during the 2017 investigation investigators alleged that Monique was the author of the threatening letter sent to Judge Maurice Simon in 1990 in October 2025 Jaclyn under mounting police suspicion that she too authored some of the anonymous letters was formally indicted on related conspiracy charges and as of the latest reporting a French appeals court is

expected to decide this month July 2026 whether these charges should be dismissed over statual limitations concerns and among the documentaries on this case are 2018's The Curse of the Volange which is French and a 2019 documentary who killed little Gregory from Netflix and a dramatization of the case aired as a six episode French mini series in 2021 entitled

know and that is new we were trying to change it up a little bit I'm Nancy Glass host of the burden of guild season three podcast this is a story about a horrendous situation that destroyed two families it started more than seven years ago when Cindy and Kenny were two 40 somethings

who had just gotten engaged days later they walked into a scorched earth war they never saw coming

turn but your hands find your back the cops given a house and threw me the jail and to Cindy's surprise her fiance Kenny was charged with abuse in one of her children I never once doubted Kenny and I always doubted the accusation on season three of burden of guild you'll hear a story about the length someone will go to in order to get what they want this case has got to be one of the most despicable listen to season three of burden of guild on the iHeart Radio app apple podcasts

or wherever you get your podcasts on boxing day 2018 joy Morgan was last seen our secretive church six weeks later she's reported missing I'm Charlie Brinkhouse cuff and after years of investigating joy's case I need to know what really happened to joy this is the missing sister the true story of a woman betrayed by those she trusted most listen to the missing sister on the iHeart Radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts I'm Stephanie Young the hit podcast

love trapped is back with new updates in the case of Laura Owens this is CR 2025 state versus Laura

“Owens I think she really believes that she still hasn't out I'm quite confident that they're”

up to something we're following the case live as the criminal charges finally come to a conclusion

trust us when we tell you as the victims of Laura Owens she will not stop listen to love trapped on the iHeart Radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts okay so we're gonna end this differently right now right you and I were talking about how I just don't want to keep fucking we end the episode with thing that makes us happy and I'm just gonna keep saying my cats or that my back doesn't hurt and I'm fucking sick of myself all right so like we're gonna save

this for like what are you gonna eat a read a thing or like brought a thing I have a thing okay great I tried to actually do something great and I have a recommendation that made that makes me really happy so like after this episode go watch this thing I'm gonna tell you about because this is the worst so great so this is all new we're getting a shot it's basically we take the beginning and we're putting it at the end yeah because we decided we front-loaded we front-load everything with

everything we love and are excited about and then we drain ourselves with horror yeah and then it's like what do you like well and then we're staring at each other going what why haven't you gone to the movie you don't you guys don't know that half the time at the end when we have to say

“I think we're happy about we have to make saving cutout 10 minutes have us going um I don't know”

okay I don't know because it's just so depressing it's depressing but also I think that we are afraid to overly plan we just want to have this be at the most natural conversation possible I don't like the planning planning of like anytime I come with something in my pocket it feels

fake and clunky yeah so I always think like when we get there something is gonna pop into my head

it makes you know what I love and then but then you're like I love hash browns you're like I just talked about a dead kid yes it feels terrible it's not enough it's never enough no this is why Elvis me I was at the end of every episode yeah it's because when we did an episode once and we were like how do we end this I was like oh shit let's do like let's have Elvis me oh yes let's just start

“talking about something else yeah tirely let's have something okay so that's what we're gonna do”

mine is you want me to go first sure it's not that great do it it's just a good thing that I like the same with mine okay there's this Netflix show movie it's a Netflix movie it's a horror comedy about vampire roommates called what we do in the shadow yes girl do you know it yes oh it's the greatest it is so good I have had the hardest time not talking to you about it it's not domain from fucking flight of the concord to make them it and is it taking what Tiki I don't

know how to pronounce like a name I panic when I see it I go with Titi like what Titi look it's stealing your hired again at a law rate it'll all right it is so perfect it's basically just like oh my it's perfection restarty it has like hilarious where where rules not swear rules yeah it's

look at one more true crime any thing like I really hit a wall and then I went randomly my DVR

“recorded flight of the concord which is also never rerun and like all you need to do is binge watch”

fight of the Concords and you'll be happy. I went straight to iTunes and bought both seasons or

sourced season. Yeah. Whatever it is. Yeah. Because I was like, wait a second. I haven't watched this

over and over for the rest of my life and be happy. It's the best show ever. I'm the hip hop of Potomest. My life is our bottomless. And then nothing. It's a little best. There's nothing better. There's nothing. Maybe he did. Maybe he did what? He maybe did what? He maybe did. He maybe did. He did. Also, those posters behind Restarby in the New Zealand office and Ben Buster's office or wherever there's the best. It's perfection. It's New Zealand. New Zealand. New Zealand in the shadows is an extension

of that. Yes. And I think they're going to bring it to this place. We call America. And Brie-Makeet here. Yes. But it's going to be Germaine and Taika who's so cute. The other thing is, I want to live in there because they're all hot. They're so hot. All the vampires, except for the really old one. Please go watch it. It's the best show you've ever seen in your fucking life. Yeah. If you haven't, it's so goddamn delay. So that may be really fucking happy. I'm going to watch it over and over again. I told

you the time I got to meet the flight of the Concrets. I open for them. When I very first started standup again after I hadn't done it for five years, one of my very first sets was opening for the flight of the Concrets in Denver. Well, they were like in their like the shit. It was the

“height. I think the show was still on. Yeah. I think it was like maybe their last set. They're like touring”

a ship. I ate it in a way. Or that one. What? Are you doing music? No, no, no. I was trying to put a comedy set back together. And one of the main problems was that the microphone was the mic cord was twisted around the mic stand, probably one hundred and fifty times. Like there was no way I was getting the mic off the mic stand. So I just stand up like working Steven Wright and deliver not set up punch jokes like conversational shit. It was awful. I got a terrible review in one of their like local

videos. They said it should have been Christian show because she's on the show and she's a Denver. It's like local. Yeah. It was a horseshoe. But all that aside horrible. Christian show. I love you. That's horrible. Look, I did it because I wanted to be around those guys and meet them. No, you're going to reason why you shouldn't have done it. But except for that I didn't have an act. But they were so lovely and German Clement. Like in my opinion, we don't have to go on and on about this.

“And we certainly don't have to debate it. But German's hotter than the others. I think Brett McKenzie”

is the hottest technically. Yes. But then we like a big guy. Well, also when German Clement walks toward you to say hello. Thank you for opening the show for us. A wind kicks up indoors and his hair blew back. There was a thing that happened where I was standing there like, what in the living fuck is coming toward me right now? I was a vampire. I also like his mom's seen his David Bowie

impressions. Yes. He'll just never. There's nobody ever. It's listen. Vince doesn't listen. It's podcast.

Look and listen. My husband doesn't listen. It's podcast. So it's fine. So letter fly. And there was we went to our watching it together. And I kept on and I kept almost saying because the guy that they turned into. Yes. That was amazing. They're so hot. Yeah, I couldn't do. It's weird too. It's weird as American girls, I think, to see hot guys that are acting like sweet and innocent. Yeah. It's such a strange knot of my era anyway. Combination. And then they had like,

I'm just going to keep talking about it. They had like, they had um, special effects that it was a slow, budget movie. And then these insane special vampire effects. Yes. I'm going to watch it tonight. They just did it perfectly. I was like a realistic, dark, you series. Oh, almost. But I know it's so perfect. It's called, I wrote on the people who we darkness. That's not it. That is actually a really good book about a Japanese serial killer. Go listen to that.

But it's actually called what we do in the shadows. That's right. It's different things. Yes. It's similar. Okay. My thing is, I love it. Now that's my thing too. It's that's great. I'm just a support. I see lotion in your hands. Well, because we were given. Oh, yeah. When we went to, I believe this was in either Atlanta or Nashville. So this was a couple trips ago. So I'm sorry

that I don't. It's like, as I always say someone pointed out to me on Twitter that I'm always like,

sorry, I don't remember your name. Sorry. Don't, whatever. It was Kim. But um, I'm trying to look

bag from some people. And I lost the fucking car. Yeah. But it's from a company called LoveHeal's

Thistle Farm. Oh, yeah. And so this is a company that's in Nashville, Tennessee where they make

“hand lotion and soaps and all this stuff. I think it's, there's a lip balm. Lip, we got lip balm,”

hand lotion. This amazing. Like, I can't stop using it, body butter. Give it everyone listen because there's a, there's a thing and you and I started crying. When are you read that? Like, literally crying in the green or room when we saw this. All of the products from LoveHeal's, the soul farms are made by women survivors. So these are women who, um, these are women who get these jobs because they have been either, they just get out of jail or they were, they are

had to leave their homes because of domestic violence issues so they're going to live at this place. Yep. And they get this career and they get a job and they get, and they make these amazing

beautiful products. My hands are always dry. There's, I have a ritual before every show. I put on

hand lotion and if I don't do it, I get, I get a little bit weird it out. Oh, everyone's well.

“And I'm meant in your mouth. I'm meant in my mouth. I'm meant in the mouth. And I'm”

meant in the mouth. And I'm meant in your mouth. I'm, hand lotion. This is my new hand lotion. It's the best. Because it's not greasy and it, and it's, it's curing all of my super dry cuticle. It's amazing. I am feeling it. So it's actually an amazing product that like smells good and really, really works. And also when you buy it, you're supporting these people who are trying to get out of a bad situation. You don't just want to go, yeah, like they're, yeah,

they feel like they have a purpose. Yeah, that's beautiful. And it's, they're making, they're making a product that could be in fucking Sephora. I like, I like this so much better than the fact that Mimi, who's sitting right here, truly does make me happy. But I don't need to repeat that every fucking episode. Look, sometimes it's hard. That's hard. I love that. Okay, let's do that

“room now on. That's a good one. Well, also we get so many and you guys, we talk, when we meet you”

and you get into us, we talk to you about it. But we are inundated with amazing, beautiful gifts.

It's incredible. Thoughtful, hilarious, brilliant, creative, artistic. It's so fun and delicious. It's hard to, we're all sort of traveling. So there was something stuff in our bag. Like, I looked around my house because I had actually the card that were that described in detail. Everything gets missed. Yeah, I'm just a sloppy mess. So I'm like, I finally grabbed up this thing where I'm like, well, at least this isn't my person. I have this information. We're so lucky. People have been

so kind to us and also fucking lucky. Yeah, thank you guys. Yeah, and so be kind to these people. We will post, I will find that thing and then we'll have Stephen Grace that this will form because it truly is side from anything else. It's a great product. We should have a, okay, we'll talk about later. Uh, make some plans on this. We should make some plans. Um, that I love that. This is so much better. Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah, yeah. It just takes five minutes of thinking.

That's all we need to do. That's so exhausting. We're gonna get there something. We should make a podcast about it. We should, we should hire a team of secretaries. Um, no offense, Stephen. And we're back. Okay, so renaming this episode. It was originally titled "Ting of Police, a great name and in itself. But if we were renaming it today, what would we call it?" On slot of Yaris. Yeah, I mean love. And Ryan Macbuff. We gotta be Ryan Macbuff. Ryan Macbuff is so good.

It's so hilarious. But then so does nobody puts Jesus in the corner. So good. French feelings are stronger. Of course. That's perfect. Those are good. Okay, that was this week's episode of Rewind. We're gonna say goodbye from the podloft in 2018. But thank you all for listening. Yes. You guys are fucking angels. Thanks for being outfield in the end field. You know, we appreciate it. You guys are like ghost baseball players in a cornfield. We built it. We look outside and you came.

Georgia right as she said. We built it. She pushed her moves together. We built it. I love grabbing my tits. Um, thank you guys. Stay sexy. And don't care, murder. Good bye. Yeah. Oh, that's one cookie. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season three podcast. This is a story about a horrendous situation that destroyed two families. It's a scorched earth war that shows just how far someone will go to get what they want. Cindy said, I had to choose between the truth and my family.

Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. The trail weekly is back with brand new stories

“from threatening text messages disturbing a small Midwestern town. It was from a unknown number.”

Who else is getting these messages? Why did it start with us to long cons and stolen

identities? Who lies about being this sick? This was the last time I ever believed to where she said.

“Listen to betrayal weekly on the i-hart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.”

On August 4th, 1962, Marilyn Monroe died. Then the rumors started and she died again.

And now we're going to set the record straight and learn about the way Marilyn Monroe actually

“died. The third way. I'm Jake Brennan and on my podcast Hollywood land, I revisit some of the”

biggest stories from Hollywood history, separating the myths people want to believe from the reality underneath them. Hollywood land is part of the exactly right network. Listen to new episodes every Monday on the i-hart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.