9/11: Modern America's Most Important Day

- Everybody, welcome in.

This is next up on Mark Calprin.

Thank you for joining us another week after the holiday weekend. And some great shows this week coming up for you, commemorating two important anniversaries. I'm the editor in Chief of Two Way, your host here and glad to have you.

Some of you might be expecting our eight for 28, look at the top Democrat prospects for the presidential nomination. We usually do that at the beginning of each month, because these two anniversaries 9/11 and the death of Charlie Kirk

were gonna unveil those next week, so we'll see on September 15th, afraid for 28, and appreciate everybody's interest in that,

but I think you'll like this week's shows.

“I think it's important to mark these two anniversaries.”

So that's what we're doing this week, eight for 28, next week. Guess today, two people with great insight into what, September 11th was all about and what it means now for the country, George Pataki, who was the governor of New York during 9/11 and led brilliantly,

and has thought a lot and worked a lot on the issues of the fallout since then. And Victor Davis Hanson, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution, host of Victor Davis Hanson in his own words and a guest previously on the program.

Both of them will join us in just a moment to talk about 9/11, but first, my reported monologue on it. You know, I'm one of the few Americans who was in both Washington and New York on 9/11. 2001, because I flew at 6 AM from New York

before the attacks on the towers and on the Pentagon

“and ended up being a crash in Pennsylvania to Washington DC.”

And while I don't minimize the impact of what happened in Pennsylvania would happen at the Pentagon as a New Yorker, as someone who lives about four miles from Grand Zero,

I've always thought about that day in the context of New York.

And of course, in the context of politics, you can't ignore the reality that the debates over homeland security have raged now for a quarter century over the issues of how both political parties have approached, not just what happened on 9/11,

but homeland security, the border. And then the wars, Afghanistan and Iraq and Iran, that are outgrotes of the need for America to be active around the world to try to keep us from being attacked at home, the need to secure our border.

I have been so proud of the country

“in so many ways, separate from the politics.”

Although, certainly, the divisions in the country have sustained and sustained in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 and in the midterm elections that year. The annual solemn moment on 9/11 in New York City, commemorating what happened, I consider to be really

one of the great civic institutions, civic moments every year as New York, the country and the world, focus on the death of so many innocent souls that day, people who were working in the towers and many who tried, in some cases succeeded,

valiantly in rescuing them. Here's a bit of how the day has been commemorated over the last 25 years. This is S4, please. (singing in foreign language)

- So much good came out of that day, in the world. (singing in foreign language) - In my big brother, James Thomas Waters Jr., who's family, he all stole from the shoot today.

- In my grandfather, Edward Joseph Papa. - So much good came out of that day, in the wake as so much sorrow, and while the political leadership like George Batakki is rightly celebrated for what they did in the immediate aftermath in the years after 9/11.

So many New Yorkers did so much, some just civilians who did so much to try to rescue people and it did out rescue people out of the buildings. And then so many people, obviously the firefighters, the cops.

Obviously the firefighters, the cops, get a lot of attention, but take the folks at Khan Edison, the power company there that did so much to deal with the crisis of the explosions and what that did to create danger,

One of the great miracles of the last 25 years

“is despite the political divisions that slow rebuilding”

with the memorials should look like the physical memorial and how downtown should be rebuilt and kind of tax breaks should be given despite that. Downtown New York around Grand Zero is thriving. More people are living there now, businesses are there.

It's one of the most vibrant parts of New York City. And that took leadership, and that took the hard work of folks from Khan Edison and safety to political leadership to say, yeah, we're going to rebuild.

It's been a struggle, but it's happened, and if you go down there, you'll see it.

And I go back to President Bush,

President Bush, leadership in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 was historic and so vital for the country. Going to a baseball game, speaking to the country in a regular basis, standing up for all Americans to keep this from becoming a moment of an unalloyed bigotry.

Probably the most iconic moment of President Bush when he went down to Grand Zero and grabbed a bull horn. And reacted to the crowd in a way that showed extraordinary leadership skills.

“Here's really, I think one of the most important moments”

of the last 25 years of American leadership, President Bush, at Grand Zero, has asked three please. (crowd cheering)

- I want you all to know that a man in the day,

a man in the day is offensively in prayer for the people to the land of Austria, for the war kosher walk here, for the families of the war. This nation stands with the good people of New York City and the Jersey and Connecticut, as we mourn the loss

of thousands of our citizens. I can hear you! I can hear you. The rest of the world hears you and the people. (crowd cheering)

And the people who are not these families down, while here are all of us soon. (crowd cheering) - The nation, the nation sends its love. In compassion.

- God bless the miracle! - Everybody who is here, thank you for your hard work. Thank you for making the nation proud and they got bless America! (crowd cheering)

- Great moment of unity, and there were others, but there were also moments of division, including some led by President Bush's political operation and the midterms, when he defied history by not losing seats because in large part,

the leveraging of this issue. This issue of protecting the homeland, this issue, of which party better understands how to keep America safe. It is raged for 25 years in the aftermath of this in the aftermath of wars that most Americans have judged

to not been in national interest. And this week, as we head towards another election, many of those same issues are still front and center what is America's role in the world, how to keep America safe at home,

and the connection between what America does in other countries militarily, diplomatically, to have safe Americans are. Thankfully, the homeland has been secure enough that we haven't seen anything like anything close

to like what happened back then, but it is still a political debate and it's still a constant struggle of an apartment of homeland security, created in the aftermath of 9/11

to make sure that Americans are safe, but I am very grateful for the leadership shown by President Bush, by Mayor Giuliani and by our guests coming up, the former Governor of New York Church, Pataki. A lot of memories from that day

and we'll talk about them in the balance of the program and the implications of all that happened for what's happened since and the debates we deal with now. So we'll take a quick break and when we come back, we'll have to reach Pataki.

I want to know what do you think that, what are your memories of 9/11?

“What do you think of the way I frame things up here?”

Send me an email, next up at devilmakeairmedia.com.

Next up at devilmakeairmedia.com.

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The promo code is nextup at takeline.com. (upbeat music) All right, next up, joining me now, very special guest. The former governor of New York State Governor George Pataki. He was the governor during the 9/11 attacks

and helped deal the city in the immediate aftermath and for a long time thereafter in turning what was a horrible nightmare situation for many into something that the city could survive. And the state in the country governor,

welcome, thank you for being here. - Well, thank you, Mark, nice being on with it. - It's just, it's such a big topic for anybody in America, but particularly for us New Yorkers who not only lived at that day, but to this day,

even even this many years later, it's still resonant, not just when people go downtown, but when we think about all the implications. The first thing is, I just love for you to walk people through how you spent in September 11th.

“Where did you wake up and where were you in the towers?”

Where hit and how did you spend the day? - Well, I'm an upstairs, you know,

and I never would stay in the city

that September 10th I did just by some fluke. And I got a call the morning of the 11th by my daughter and said, have you seen that a plane hit the tower? I said no, so she said turn on the television, I was talking with her, and then I saw the second plane hit

and immediately knew we were under attack at that point. Your instinct is you spring into action. You're the leader of the state, we're in a crisis. You have to act, so that's what I did. My troopers were as they always were in the room

and said, we're gonna take you to Albany to the emergency command center of bunker in Albany. They have a helicopter, and for the only time in my 12 years as governor I said no, I'm not gonna bel you this time, I have to stay in the city.

So I went to, I called Mayor Julie. - So where were you when you were talking to your daughter? - I was in a friend's apartment with Libby, my wife. I just stayed over the night before in which neighborhood. - In the Upper East Side.

- Okay, so about four or five miles from Gran Zero. - At most, yeah, four or five miles. So from there I called Mayor Julie, and he told him I was in the city, I was closing the bridges in tunnels,

closing the airspace, activating our emergency command center, calling up the National Guard and whatever he needed. You know, we were there to do. I called President Bush and told him, asked him to close the airspace over in New York,

but he'd already shut the airspace down. And we left it that we'd be in communication that day and whatever was needed either way we would provide. And then I went down to Gran Zero,

“'cause I thought it was important for people”

to see that the governor wasn't hiding in a bunker underground in Albany. The governor was walking the streets of Lower Manhattan, so that it was a side of confidence, optimism, that for all of the horrors, we were gonna get through this.

- So, have what time did you get to Gran Zero and how long did you stay there? - I probably got there maybe 10, 30.

Actually, I went to the office first,

because I had a sign dozens of executive orders. It was an election day, it was primary day. People had been voting for three or four hours. And I had to stop the election, postpone it, until a time when the city had somewhat returned

to normal and other executive orders, taking action. And I was probably around 10, 30 or 11,

And I went first to a hospital,

“maybe three or four blocks from where the towers were.”

And it was just a tough scene, because outside, there were journeys, maybe 2000 journeys waiting, outside the hospital with doctors there for the injured, and nobody was coming. Because very few people were injured.

Either you got out of the towers and you were okay, or you were in the towers and you were killed. So, and at that time, outside, same looks, I think it was, the woman comes up to me, Christie Ferrer.

She was married to the head of the Port Authority, Neil Levin, who I had named, head of the Port Authority, was a friend of mine. She goes, "I've been to hospitals all over. Have you seen Neil?"

And I got, "No, what was he doing?"

And I'll never forget, she says,

he's having breakfast at Windows, in the world, of the world, which are at the top of the tower.

“And I immediately knew that Neil had died,”

but you can't take away someone's last shred of hope. So you just hug them and shed a tear and say, "We'll do everything we can to find him and then move up from there." - What other moments did you have in that first day,

around Grand Zero, that are resonant for you, that you were called? - Undoubtedly, being there that evening, you know, not just within a few blocks with standing at the base of the pile.

We're all the rubbish of the towers, we're with my daughter, Emily, actually.

She was worried to be alone, so I dragged her with me.

And we were there, maybe 50 feet from the burning wreckage, and the air was like something would imagine and harm movie. You saw a flakes of papers and ash, just from river to river, cross the entire scene.

And at the pile itself with a wreckage, you didn't just have smoke, it was still burning. And you could see the flames and on that hot pile, you could see the firefighters trying to save their co-workers. You could see the construction workers,

trying to dig through the robbers as most they could. And it was just a scene out of hell, really, to be honest. But at the same time, New Yorkers were there, Americans were there. They were doing everything they could to try to save lives

at that time. And you couldn't help it, admire among this hard, the courage that people were showing. - Yeah, what were your thoughts about besides dealing with the site, what were your thoughts about security

for New York City and New York State and have vulnerable the country that city might have been in the immediate aftermath?

“- Well, Mark, the great concern was what's gonna happen next?”

You know, are there gonna be other terrorist attacks? Was this an isolated event or not? So we took a lot of steps to do everything we could to protect New Yorkers. We had a meeting with Mueller was head of the FBI,

and he came in like two days later, and he said, "They didn't think there'd be any follow-on attacks because our cater, as Modus operandi, was to do one major thing." So he had hopes for that, and then a lot of people don't realize this,

but we had the anthrax all across New York City. And you didn't know it was that part of a follow-on terrorist chemical attack or simply some crazy person, but it was in the ABC studios, it was a trooper who had been with me in ABC,

had brought it into my offices. We had to take antibiotics and sterilize the office, so it was a challenging time, but the whole way through, you couldn't help, but feel the strength, not just of New York but of America.

I mean, the help we got from all over the country was enormous, and in New York, we lost 343 firefighters. Most of the firefighters were at ground zero, working 18, 20 hours a day,

but we had fire companies from all over the state, come in and go to the fire stations in the Bronx and Queens and upper Manhattan, and it was that type of people rally to help New York get through this horrible moment that really was inspiring in the midst of this horror.

When you think back to pre-9/11 and the precautions that were taken, there was homeland security back then, but not the way it is now. When you think about your own conduct and that of the federal government state local,

where there mistakes made that led to this, that let us vulnerable, that could have been addressed, or this was so improbable compared to what it happened previously. - Well, absolutely, it was a shock that no one certainly, that I knew of had any idea that this could possibly happen,

but the intelligence that came out afterwards,

and there was this wall intentionally in place

between the CIA and the FBI where they wouldn't share information. And there were issues like that at an hindsight, you look at and say that perhaps we could have been more aware and more proactive in preventing it,

“but one of the things that I think was important”

on September 11th is, and the weeks thereafter, nobody was pointing fingers at anybody else. We were in a crisis, we were gonna get through that crisis. And then you can figure out what went wrong, who should have done something differently,

once the immediate disaster was behind us, and we had, I guess, was the keen commission to look into it and they made some positive recommendations, but the fact that at that time, no one was blaming anybody else,

we were standing shoulder to shoulder to get through it. I think that's one of the important reasons that came through so strongly. - I wanna ask you about two other leaders, both of whom you've mentioned,

who played a critical role, as you did,

in rallying the city and the state and the country. One is President Bush, you obviously came and famously spoke in the bold orange and said the people who did this, what you're from us. Talk about, and you've known President,

you knew I had known President Bush for quite some time. Tell us about what you saw in him in his leadership during 9/11 and aftermath. - You know, he did a tremendous job that they before, and in the weeks and months after,

I remember talking, we were talking literally every day, a couple of times every day, and after two or three days, I was down at Ground Zero all the time, and you could sense that sense of mission and urgency was turning into a sense of anger with the workers down there,

as the frustration over not being able to save lives and knowing that so many of their friends or relatives had died, it was becoming anger. - So I remember talking, calling President Bush and saying you should come here.

“You know, I think it would be inspirational,”

and we needed, because we've had a great response, but things can turn ugly quickly when people are frustrated and angry and don't know who to point that anger at. And his security team said no, you can't go.

It's too dangerous, you know, who knows what's up next and the idea that you could be at Lower Manhattan at Ground Zero is just non-sensical, and President Bush overwrote him. He said, I have got to be there. I have got to go to his enduring credit.

He overwrote his security, which I know you don't like to do, and came to New York a few days later. And there was, as you can see from the video, anger where people were angry towards whoever,

and then President Bush got up there and said the people who did this are gonna hear from us. And that changed everything. All of a sudden, the anger was appropriately directed at the terrorists, the people who had attacked us

as opposed to looking inward at who maybe should have done something differently.

“So I think, you know, the video speaks for itself,”

but I think from the emotion of the workers down there, and the people of New York and America, the fact that the President was aware that this was a horrible terrorist attack and that we weren't gonna take it,

that we were gonna respond appropriately to go after those who did this to us. Change the sense among the people in certainly a lower Manhattan, who I was with, in a very, very real way.

And it was an absolutely critical step

and allowing us to get through this move forward. - I bring out Mayor Giuliani, and I say, not an agocity way, but just an effect to it. The two of you did not have the best working relationship before 9/11, lots of tensions, on lots of issues.

And that happens in politics, it happens in life, two people, two ambitious, successful people, don't necessarily get along just because you were kind of of the same political party. How did you two deal?

How did you see his performance? How did you see your relationship having to adapt to the crisis situation? - Well, you're right, not only had we had some touch, but he had actually endorsed my opponent

and flown around the states and I'd be a horrible governor. So we didn't exactly have the closest of relationships, but on that day, we worked extremely well together. And I remember I talked to him in the morning, and any was at a communication for three or four hours

because he had been trapped in a building. But when we talked again at three o'clock, that afternoon, he said, he set up a temporary emergency command center at a building, the old police academy. And I thought for a minute, literally maybe 10 seconds,

and I said, I'll be right down. And I got my entire security team, and we went down there. And from probably 330 on that afternoon, and for the next months, thereafter, the state and the city leadership was in the same building

at the same table. The city officials were on one side, the state officials were on the other side, including Rudy and May and including our key workers.

and they sat at the far end. So I had watched Katrina, where the city blamed the state, the state, blamed the fence, the fence, and the city, and it was a horrific response to a tragedy.

And that wasn't gonna have, we were gonna work together.

And we did, there was never ever a question I thought

you were gonna do this or you were supposed to do that because we were in the same room.

“So it was just, I think that's the most important decision”

I made in my 12 years as governor was to set up a joint response headquarters as opposed to having competing, both actions and media availability. And I said, I think that's one of the reasons we just had a tremendous relationship going forward.

And Rudy was tremendous during that. One of the things he did at a man, anybody was the public communication, you know, 'cause obviously the world was watching this and wondering. And he did a tremendous job laying out where we were,

where we were going to be in the strength of New York. For that he deserves credit. - Yeah, you both did a remarkable job of showing both compassionate strength as to President Bush at a time when the city needed both.

They needed, they needed people who were angry at what had happened and responsive and competent, but also a compassionate, compassionate towards what had happened. One of the great things about the city and its resiliency is the area around where the twin towers were,

thrives today. Not only is there a memorial and the freedom tower, but families are raising kids and there's, it's arriving commerce and all around there. And of course that's where Wall Street is

and that's where so much of the heart of American corporate America is, how did that happen? How did downtown around Grand Zero get rebuilt so quickly and so well? - Well, Mark, I had to say I'm proud of what we did.

Because it was a disaster. It wasn't just the loss of lives was obviously the thing

“that you never forget and it always touches you.”

But every business was going to leave. I got called, literally, hourly from corporate leaders saying we have to leave. We're concentrated in a small area. We're under attack.

The word was, we have to decentralize. We can't all be located so closely together.

We had 20 million square feet of office space destroyed.

Another 10 million damaged. There was no sewer or water electricity. And it was a incredibly difficult challenge. But I knew we could get through it. One, we had great leaders.

And I just tell you one story, if I can, about a marathon-- - Rest. - The American Express, you know, a symbol of this country right across the street from Ground Zero.

Two or three days after the attacks, the head of American Express can't shut up calls me. And he goes, we're having our board meeting Monday and the board wants to leave Lower Manhattan. And he goes, I don't want to do it.

I don't want to give into the terrorists. I want to stay here but I need help. And we had a nice talk. And he said, we're a symbol of America. We need special security.

The city won't provide it. We'll estate. And I said, absolutely, you know, we will make sure whatever security American Express needs to stay across the street from Ground Zero.

We will provide it. And that Monday I got a call from him saying the board had met. And they had just renewed their lease for another 10 years. So it was that type of spirit, but also, I mentioned,

we got $20 billion from President Bush and Congress.

We created in the Senate program. And it was an excellent Senate program. We had we created a special organization to allocate the funds. And I had the idea of having eight based on concentric circles

where the closest to Ground Zero got the highest aid further away they got aid but less aid. And that incentive, that economic incentive plus the knowledge that we were going to rebuild the infrastructure is quickly as possible.

And we were going to create something at Ground Zero itself that would bring millions of people to New York and America. Was something that allowed them to say, OK, we can stay here. Or we can locate here, we can come back, we can grow.

And you look today in, it's really a vibrant, exciting place. I could tell you about Goldman Sachs. How many times they told me, look across the river,

“that building, we on the river, why should we not move across?”

And today their global headquarters is literally 50 yards from the freedom tab. Yeah, it's a beautiful building. And there are many new and beautiful buildings down there that are testament to what you and others did to be able

to make sure people have the courage and the incentives to stay. How old is your oldest grandchild? 14. 14. What are your grandchildren know about 9/11, the older ones? Yeah, that's a very good question.

Yeah.

What would you say to a kid, 14, 13, whatever, a young person who

doesn't have any obviously recollection of it, maybe hasn't learned about it, what are the lessons for young people about what happened on 9/11?

“You know, I think this is a great country.”

And it's a great country, but you have so much freedoms. And even when we're at peace, there are those who not only are happy not to live with those freedoms. But they want to take us away. And they're called terrorists.

And they attack this once, I'm one of the darkest day in American history. And unless we are vigilant and utilize those freedoms, it could happen again. But we're a great country because of those freedoms.

Utilize them, freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, freedom of religion. And there's nothing that can hold us back from getting better every day. When you think about the annual gathering

that's occurred every year, since the attack, I find it to be one of the most moving days of the year, every year. And the ability of the organizers to put the families of those who parish front and center has been just

been brilliant and extraordinary and wonderful. When you've gone over the years, how does it make you feel as you go every year? I'll tell you, Mark, it's a horrible day. And just the memories are not great.

You think the losses, the people we knew, the firefighters, and everyone else, and it just reminds you of the darkness of the hours of that day. And you feel terrible, but then you see the family members. And you think, I have this pain, but it's nothing.

It's absolutely not one thousand of what someone lost their son or daughter or husband or wife feels. And you go from feeling sad yourself to having empathy for those who have suffered so much more than you have. And as you said, it's absolutely appropriate.

It's the right way to do it. No political speeches. The families are front and center. And as difficult as it is, I've been there 24 years in a row,

“and I'll be there again this year, because I think it's important”

that they know that those who had power today and had power then respect what happened and respect them. So it's a moving, difficult day, but it's appropriate to do, because the need to honor the memory of those who we've lost and show respect for the families and the firefighters,

and the other first responders who will be there as well.

Governor George Petakia, accomplished a lot as Governor of New York, but nothing has important really as a leadership piece showed on September 11th and beyond to help reassure the city, the state and the country, but also rebuild a part of America that is unique and symbolically and substantively,

so important to the whole world, really. Governor grateful to you and I appreciate so much you sharing your reflections on this extraordinary anniversary. Thank you. Thank you, and I'll tell you, what you have done to improve the political

dialogue in America is important. Thank you, grateful to you, Governor. That's Governor George Petakia. Next up, the great Victor Davis Hanson will be here to talk more about the lessons of 9/11 Victor Davis Hanson.

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Go to select quote.com/mark today to get started. OK, next up, and joining me now on this 25th year commemorating horrible attack on the United States, Victor Davis Hanson, senior fellow at the Hoover Institution host of the Victor Davis Hanson in his own words podcast with new episodes every Tuesday, Thursday, Friday,

and Saturday, Victor welcome back to next up.

I want to start with a counter conventional wisdom macro premise,

and then we'll drill down on some of it. It was, of course, the conventional wisdom after 9/11 that we change everything about the United States in thinking about it over the last couple of days. I actually think it's changed far less than people had anticipated. What do you think of that thesis?

“I tend to agree that it did. I think it lowered the bar of what we were going to”

do in the Middle East. I think before that there was a general perception

that in the 91 Gulf War, for example, you go in and you go home and you

it was a four-day groundwater and maybe we had a bombing for 30 days, but it was sort of the idea was there was still the Vietnam idea. You don't go in and have a ground war in environments and in atmospheres that are not conducive to our western strengths and firepower. But after 9/11, I think we would not have gone in ever to Afghanistan and Iraq and I don't think we would have probably gone in

to the extent we're dealing with Iran today. So it did lower the bar that and I don't mean that necessarily entirely that it was a misadventure that 20 years in Afghanistan. It didn't end well, but there were things that happened. Everybody was saying after 9/11, it was inevitable we were going to have another

“attack of that magnitude or something like it in the 90s and we didn't. And I think”

part of that was that we did restore deterrence or that we were a little crazy people thought. But for good or for evil, it did in that one aspect make it more likely that we would be prominent in Middle Eastern affairs. Yeah, I agree with you. That reorientation, although of course President Trump and to some extent President Biden have pulled back from that and you can tell

the limits on it. There's literally no more powerful current on the maga right or the progressive

left than saying no more foreign wars. Yeah, so especially what we I guess when they say endless or forever war, it's kind of an exact term, this one he's getting hammered from the writers of for it. I think what they really mean is an optional war of any sort. Yeah, and a war that would seem the expense and blood and treasure is likely to be greater than whatever benefit might might be. Yes. When I say when I say I totally credit your point that for a time that did change.

In of course, we now have a big federal bureaucracy, the Department of Homeland Security. We have more security measures in terms of air travel. When I say the change has been less, I say I give these examples. I can get on any train on the M-track system with no security. I can walk into any mall in America most days with no security. And to extent there's more security at a baseball game or an office building, most that has to do with domestic terrorists, shooters, not a fall out of

9/11. So the homeland is more secure in some ways, but it's not really locked out. But the main thing I'm thinking of is the psyche of America. I don't get the sense that the national psyche was permanently altered by 9/11. It's a hard thing to quantify or even qualify. But what do you think of that thesis that we're really most Americans aren't as conscious of it as I thought they would be? No, they're not. And because we're so far away, a quarter century that a lot of people

have grown up with no knowledge of it. I think if we ask 30% of the population, what happened on 9/11, they wouldn't even know. And they have no world prior to 9/11 to compare it with. But I think that's

“right. I don't think a lot of people feel that I think the only thing that they feel that is”

that whether they don't quite know what happened, but they don't feel that a foreign terrorist organization is going to do that again at that magnitude. Because if they did, we would retaliate. And maybe we wouldn't get on the ground, but we would do something. And a cost to benefit analysis, those potential aggressors would think it would be on wise. And I'm not sure that that was true before. But I think that's the change that I see. That where I think we're actually

more vulnerable to terrorism today, part of that's because of immigration and other types of terrorism, but we're less vulnerable to foreign terrorism. And part of this technology is better

didn't have then AI and things. And we've poured billions, trillions of dollars into,

into fortifying the capacity, at least to use air airplanes. Yes. And a lot of intelligence gathering. On this question of how Americans feel about Saudi Arabia, Saudi Arabia before 9/11,

“very popular. I think said people had a view and in Washington, the Saudis had a lot of consultants,”

everybody loved working for the Saudis. They paid a lot to lobbyists, 9/11, just a massive reversal. And people looked at the Saudis as a dark force. Every president though gets drawn back to them because of oil and because of their dominant position as a purchaser of American military equipment and as a producer of oil. Where is the national psyche now in terms of Saudi Arabia? Would you say it's compared to 24 years ago in the aftermath of 9/11? Well under Trump it's definitely

I think under Biden he on wisely after the involvement of the of the Saudi critic that was killed so I guess dismembered in Turkey. At the embassy, Biden said that they were, I don't know what the right word is, you'll know Mark. We're in a gate or they were somebody we didn't want to deal with. He said that earlier and then when the midterms came and the price of gas went up, he almost

embarrassed himself and he was very obsequious and saying, you know, I didn't mean it basically.

Can you pump more oil? And they said and they said no. And then when Trump came in he had recorded the Saudi government and all the Gulf states and I guess he had this grand idea that they were all going to make money and Israel was going to make money and there's going to be the Abraham Accords on steroids and they all had a common enemy with Iran but that is become problematic

“now. I think because there's starting to be a couple of there's a little bit of suspicion”

that's growing and growing on a multitude of fronts. One after all the criticism of Hunter Biden

for his what all of his entanglements with the Gulf with China, there are members around the

Trump family, some people in the Trump family that are heavily involved both in the Gulf, Jared Kushner but there's a sense that a lot of people are making a lot of money and there's a sense that a lot of you know why we have that sense because they are. Because they are absolutely. I didn't want to make accusations that I can't prove but it seems to me they're make I know a couple of people I won't mention their names that are making a lot of money there

“and I don't I don't think it's good for the Trump administration at all especially after the”

criticism of Hunter but then the other thing is they've been it's starting to come out that got her especially they're giving a lot of money to universities and these middle when when 9/11 took place if you did have a middle eastern program it was underfunded and it was disintegrated in other words it would have a history of Israel history of the Arab world history of Persia but after 9/11 the Saudi money and the Gulf money was such that today these these programs are

enormous and they are not disinterested they are partisan pro and they're mostly specialized in Palestinian issues and a lot of the criticism that we have from academics comes out of those programs and that has that has alarmed a lot of people a lot of people in the Jewish community are rightly alarmed by that and that's new and together with the investments and then I guess the scabb was kind of open you know it was kind of ironic mark because they had been egginess on to do something

about the Iranian threat for years and they said you know we we pay dangled to them they harassed people in the straight once in a while were at their mercy and so then we went over there partly with the assumption that they were going to participate and then you talked to people in the military and they said you know they have 600 combat aircraft French care but F-16s few F-35s they've got some good pilots they've hired some pilots they they're formidable and then when

the actual kinetic part started they were assumed that we were going to do the heavy lifting and it was

the problem would be solved but they didn't really understand Trump you know it's art of the so many art and now they've kind of turned on him and they're saying basically we think you're going to leave and you're going to leave a wounded animal next door to us so we're going to cut

our own deals with them and we always have in the past so if it's a matter of getting 10

missiles into a water distillation plan or an oral we finally are pay them two or three billion a

“year it's cheap so that's what they're doing and there's a Trump the other day said he was going to”

you know bomb Oman because they said they were going to ignore the blockade or something to that sort so I think it's it's angelating but right now I think we're on the descent with in attitudes positive attitudes towards Saudi Arabia in general and maybe in particular I particular Saudi Arabia but all of the states with the exception of the UAE maybe yeah the UAE does seem to be on at least slightly sound or footing with the United States the government and business but you know

you think about 25 years ago the goal was to take a rock from being a sponsor of state terrorism to an ally and and and all of the all of the efforts there were were intended to say okay we're going to take an opportunity here to make this country friendly country same with Afghanistan

“hasn't really worked you know we're friendly or then we were before but but Qatar Saudi”

Oman Afghanistan obviously Iran these are not countries with an affinity for shared interests with the United States these are not people who they they the president this president the next president can find moments to work together but it doesn't seem to me that the 20 during these 25 years of the project was let's build more trust so these are reliable parts of an American defense coalition economic trading block it doesn't seem to me we've made a great deal of progress there

well if we had said the war in Iraq is to remove a genocidal dictator which he was and to create a neutral power that would have a rudimentary consensual system that was better than the alternative but may at times be anti-American than that succeeded but it didn't

“succeed it didn't succeed in a cost of benefit as you mentioned earlier I think one reason though is”

I don't think anybody in two thousand two thousand three two and three when we went to these countries we were hearing peak oil peak oil peak oil and we've got that you know we've got a harvest sugar cane or we've got to do this without but nobody in the right mind ever thought that horizontal drilling and fracking would make us the larger largest producer and now

exporter of oil and natural gas in the world in history we're going to get up to over 14 million

barrels of oil produced and we have the largest natural gas we're supplying your by so in a way it kind of made the Middle East a little bit more we're not so obsequious and I think they resent that I think a lot of American government officials think you know what we don't really need your oil any more your pins do but you're kind of an expense for us we patrol all the choke points of the world but we don't really that's coming up more and more now if you think about we don't need your oil maybe

California does California has fourth largest reserves of oil of any of the states we just don't use it but we don't really need your straight to get oil economy here in the United States we don't need it and the Europeans do so it's in a way it's made our allies more dependent on the golf than ever and us less dependent and that might reflect a little bit of the choices that these that Biden or Trump has when they occasionally blow up at the Saudis or the Omanis or something and then the

other thing is nobody really talks about gutter but Al Jazeera and their relationship with a

ran and their relationship with Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis and their money 50 billion dollars I

think they've given over the last 30 years they're not really a friend of the United States or subversive element and they're played they're two face and we all we're all coming to that conclusion some of us a little earlier than others but it's not it's not a healthy place and there's also people who you know you talked to a lot of people in Middle Eastern studies and I talked to a lot of them

feel that as bad as Iran was it was a check on Westernizing the influence in the Arab world

“and Islam in general that they could make arrangements with Iran to keep them at bay but”

they they kept it check on Israel and they kept it check on the United States in some way and they could balance us off against Iran but the elimination of Iran might end up with a secular westernized show like replacement again that would be hostile to their interest and more favorable to Israel so I don't think they're hearts into this war anymore at all. There are hearts not in the war but their hearts are also not into being friends of the United States and

and the question the question comes up because they don't have the hold on us that they used to

overwhelm. They they they do need things from us and yet even this American president who's a tough guy and doesn't put up with stuff and makes threads even this president acts like they have the power over us. It doesn't seem like they they they they seem to think they have we have much leverage over them. Again and that's that's a disappointing conclusion after 25 years of us trying to reorganize the neighborhood to be less antithetical to America's interests.

“Yeah I think on the plus side I don't think anybody thought we were list if we were talking in”

2002, three, four, five we were all it was a period of declineism. China was going to over reach or take us in GDP they're still 10 trillion behind we're 31 they're 20. If you look at AI if you look at satellite launches space exploration genetic engineering we're our companies are by far ahead of any other China or Europe combined in terms of market capitalization etc so there's a confidence in the United States that aside from all of our natural resources we've

recoup that lead militarily culturally but scientifically as well but what I think you're getting out and I agree with you is I don't think anybody then thought the Republican party would have a renegade group that is actually pro Islam and anti-Israel to the degree they're openly anti-Semitic nor would they would they ever think the hard left would have made an alliance with the Hassan part pikers and Mondami and we'd have cheated to leave, Ilian Omar, El Zaiid all of those people

they were they would have been considered way beyond the pale but partly it's because we've had five million immigrants from the Middle East and they're one of the fastest growing minorities and they're very astute they don't seem to want to assimilate a culturally or integrate to the degree that other groups have and they understand American politics as Ilian Omar and Rashid and these socialist but this this mainstreaming of radical Islam and anti-Semitism and

anti-Israelism and almost pro terrorism when you hear Hassan parker piker talk and then you hear

Tucker talk I don't think I would have never imagined that in the last 20 years 25 years we

end up like that with the major parties and we look at the primaries that seemed to be on every commentators view that democratic socialist were sort of pro I don't know pro Hamas pro Hezbollah but one thing and and everybody was talking about the races and Florida in terms of was this candidate pro Israel or that pro Israel when the Democratic Party in 2002 2001 2003 it was pretty much more as as pro Israel as a Republican. I want to ask you another thing and this is

another thing that even the most learning people of I glued you in that it's difficult to know for sure but I want to know what you know and what your impressions are about this. There are two phrases from Vietnam but one comes from a book when comes from a movie that are that are meant to be ironic

“but I think they're super valuable and thinking about the last 25 years regarding the Middle East”

hearts and minds and best in the brightest. Both meant ironically but we really do need the best in the brightest to deal with these problems and and capturing the hearts and minds are important right after 9/11 we all read the number of people in these in these Gulf countries in Egypt who are under 25 it was extraordinary like half the population was under 25 and people worried that for overall president Bush's outreach the Arab American and Muslim American communities that we were

about to create reaction to September 11th a generation or more of young people Muslims who are

also some young people who love the United States they love our culture they love our freedom but we've created we have created some number inadvertently we've created some number of that how big a problem is that a people in there people who who were teenagers then who are now early middle age in Egypt in Iraq in Iran in Oman Turkey how much do they hate the United

“States? Well I think part of it is they know a lot more about the United States and they have a”

schizophrenic view they want to come here they love Western culture especially the gratification of their appetites music drink women all of that stuff popular culture and yet they feel it's anti-Islamic and so and then the other problem is there's more more people from the Middle East here than ever before there's more I can't believe the number as a person has been 50 years in academia that used to be that Jewish Americans were overrepresented both his students and as faculty in our blue chip

universities but when I visit the Ivy League or I I'm at Stanford I see just the opposite the number of professors who are from the Middle East and are openly anti-Israel and the number of students dwarfs the number of Jewish students are Jewish professors so and what I'm getting at it's a very strange kind of anti-Americanism it's I want to come over here and be professor of Middle Eastern studies at Princeton I want to become over here and work for the Ford Foundation I want to come

over here and run for Congress and yes and yet when they get those positions of influence they're

very hostile and critical of the very country and civilization that they have made a choice to

inhabit and live among and that's that's one question the other thing is when if you look at

“Israel in the last 25 years I first went there in 2005 I think 20 years ago and six or seven times”

I've it's it's it's it's not even recognizable to what it was it's I've never seen a country grow it was growing it was prosperous it was Western but it's it's absolutely stunning in its facilities now it's transportation it's high rises it's hospitals it's research it's water distillation they've got they've solved their water problem they're giving it to their neighbors in Jordan and and their military they have 400 of the top pilots in the world they're they're

redoing F-35s in ways that we can't imagine so I guess the impression is no longer that Israel is a vulnerable state in the Middle East but it is the hub of high tech finance and I think with that it has earned a lot of envy in the United States or maybe benign by some people say well we don't need to help it anymore or it's the overdog now or it can this little tiny country

of ten and a half million at a whim can wipe out the hoothees or it can wipe out a ran or make

“it just so it's a a lot of the hostility I think is the envy and anger that Israel has become so”

powerful and they don't know how to and and I can see that in now in our two parties because when you talk to people and I go through some people in the right that I used to know and you in our exam and their arguments genocide apartheid ethnic cleansing I can find so many more examples of ethnic cleansing around the world our genocide our apartheid or our settler colonialism or people who deserve to be arrested other than Netanyahu coming into New York but they have no

answers for that they've created almost a deductive Pavlovian response response it anything to do with Israel that's the end of the conversation and I think a lot of that comes from

that Israel is so successful now and so powerful and so wealthy and so innovative that it's

shock people yeah and I can't handle it it's very different than than what was true at 9/11 and while there's been some in the in the Arab states the Muslim states there's been some attempt to diversify their economies there's been some efforts to get in tectectic technology you can't look and Iraq would be exhibit a post 9/11 you can't look at any of these places and say they've

repressive places and pretty backwards places when it comes to you know modern Western thought right

yeah absolutely I'm always amused by people who are harsh critics that want to visit

the West Bank or got prior to October 7th or Gaza or some of Lebanon and they all stay at the King David Hotel and they all and then I know a lot of Arab friends of scholars and when

“they've lived in Jordan or Lebanon and I think the head of Hamas when he was in captivity had a”

brain tumor and it was an operable anywhere else but Israel and they operated it out and so so war whatever his name was so it's so far it's comparable to the West but even after saying that when I walk in if I was walking in San Francisco four years ago on hypha there was no comparison hypha work San Francisco was a dystopian nightmare yeah so think about back here we've talked about the hardening of our air system some other security measures leaving that aside and just think that the homeland as we

call it now what good came out of 9/11 for the United States what changes did it inspire that you think were positive I think it reminded us that we we had kind of plunged in whole hog into globalization and we had this naive view that if you could call somebody in Nigeria on your new cell phone technology that that was going to be ecumenical and that when you suddenly were looking at CNN worldwide news or on your laptop and you saw people wearing jeans and

Iran or they were singing American songs or they knew American lyrics in Bolivia that it was brotherhood of humanity and we're and there were people saying this that westernization was globalization they were going to have the fact that you could be in the Amazon basin and have pennant selling and eyeglasses now it was just going to be a much more interconnected a lot of that came

“with the Obama administration and I think one result of that is after 9/11 it came later with the”

Obama administration but after 9/11 slowly there there came the idea that with globalization it was vulnerability and that people could you couldn't you couldn't know who was coming in or what they were saying or you wouldn't know what we were all over the world and people were going to be attacking us the USS Cole or we were much more vulnerable than we had ever been after 9/11 and we didn't really trust the idea that with familiarity came kindness and friendship and mutual cooperation the more

intimate we knew the world the more scary it became which is a positive because it woke us from a slumber that I think so some course gracious when you think about the events of 9/11 and the accounts we have of what happened in the twin towers on the planes in Shanksville what kind of emotions

does that fill you with I have I must confess I get bouts of horror I always think of those people

that were in the top floors of the World Trade Center jumping having to make that decision between being incinerated or jumping and you see those pictures some people were going head first and then the flight and Pennsylvania that crashed and the the Maccarb box cutter hole incident and just or the plane plowing in and killing those people on the Pentagon 3,000 people gone

“like that and then I remember it that was the first time I think I really understood the”

loony left and at the time the new republic was a normal democratic organ and they would have I think it was something like loony watch and they would talk about a major American liberal or leftists who said I think Philip Roth said I was glad I didn't have to see those two

buck teeth of the World Trade Center anymore but there were people who said that and that was the first

time that all of us thought it was so horrific that there would be a uniform reaction of horror and anger and even righteous vengeance but there wasn't there with people that was the first time I had noticed that there were a lot of people in the academic world foundations the the elite media that really felt we had it coming and they were expressing that for the first time and that

the Georgia Senator and he just said Trump's war and I thought no there's American soldiers there

“in plans that they may not agree with a war but that's America's war whether you like it or not”

so that was that was new for me that there would people would be so brass to almost suggest and it was I was reminded out the other day when that quote keeps popping up that has some piquered price of repressed that you know we deserved 9/11 yeah if you think about a class of 16 year old American 16 year old who were not alive on 9/11 and and know about it but but just hastily and they asked you a professor what what what should we know about it which we think about it what

would you tell them well I have children that were very young when 9/11 happened they were born

before but they were there were too young to comprehend it I tried to tell them that anything is possible anytime anywhere by anybody and the only attitude is the ancient Roman idea if you

“want peace prepare for what you have to have military deterrence and intelligence just deterrence”

law enforcement deterrence and you can't you can't you can't be a period of naive it any time that we've done that whether it was in on the eve of World War I but especially in the 30s as we saw from 39 40 41 we thought oh we're not going to get involved or there were

periods that we felt that that taunt was going to change the way the Soviet Union fell and I mean

looked at us felt when the only answer was it had to implode and the same thing I think is there's elements of that right now in both parties that feel that most of the problems that we have a broader or our own making rather than fundamental civilizational fault lines with people who are not liberal minded and they really don't like what we are where the most dominant country in the world the other thing is people again when we get into declineism people by this

juncture 25 years after 9/11 really did believe when they looked at energy and our financial problems

“and technologies that China would be ascendant by now and I think the idea that the United States”

and all of these new technologies as I said AI and robotics and Elon Musk launched more space more satellites last year than the world combined China launched 350 American launches were 3,500 10 times more and the same thing about AI is I just looked at the market capitalization 8 of the top 10 companies are American and it goes like that with finance and software so I don't think anybody 25 years ago thought that we would be this dominant at least in things that we weren't supposed

to be like technology or we might have learned our lesson or militarily and we are and I think it surprised a lot of us that we've kind of had a renaissance or a rebounding. If exists episode of next up it's sponsored by ROW a lot of people here at GLP1 and immediately assume treatment is going to cost a fortune but GLP1 medications may be more affordable and accessible than you realize ROW helps eligible patients find a path to FDA approved GLP1 treatment

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again that's row.co/safety. One more topic because just as we're thinking about 25 years in

has occurred in the last year that explains the significance of his absence. Well two things. One,

“the universities are coming under a lot of assault not just that they're highly politicized. We all”

knew that but that they're not educating people and they suffer from great inflation. They're raising the rate of tuition three times higher than the rate of inflation. The graduates, employers say are not skilled in analytics, math and English. They have a therapeutic DI curriculum and people are saying is it really worth a collective $1.8 trillion in student debt. And Charlie Kirk was way ahead of that. He didn't go to college and yet he went to the Oxford Union and debated

some of the best debaters in the world. I knew him. I talked him once in a while. I visited him and he was a very skilled auto-diadact. He spent hours on online courses, self-enprovement. And he really reminded young people that there's nothing wrong with being a plumber, a electrician, carpenter. And today now we know that these trades pay more than the psych major or the sociology major without the student debt. So that was really unusual that somebody without a college education

would be the foremost presence on a campus, on a conservative side. The other thing he did, which was underappreciated and explains a lot of his successes and getting people registered and to vote, he made the argument that youth are naturally rebellious. And they do, they question authority. And he said, we got to get out of the mode that that is a 60s phenomenon. It's not. It's inherent in human nature. And today's authorities, today's establishment, today's elite are not like it was

“in the 60s. You need to rebel and use that youthful energy and suspicion. But you got to rebel against”

the elite media, the elite universities, the elite entertainment industry, the elite sports ends. They're all dominated. That was his message by leftist liberal elite concerns. So he really

made it fashionable to be a revolutionary, but it was really a counter-revolutionary. And he made

he kept drilling the idea that these people, he was the first person I heard in a popular fashion that was same things years ago with that debate with Hassan Piker. Wait a minute, you're a multi-millionaire and you have a Porsche and you're preaching. So he was trying to tell us that the establishment of this country, the cultural and the sociological establishment is left wing and young people as natural rebels need to join the conservative movement to rebel against it.

And I don't think the Republicans ever fully appreciated that. They appreciated the results, but they were just mystified how you achieve them and they haven't been able to replicate that sense. Well said, ladies and gentlemen, there are a lot of people in the world in America who speak and think and write for a living and talk. But most of them are a lot of similarity,

“a lot of homogeneity that Dr. Davis Hanson is singular and that's why we love having him on.”

Thank you for being here and for walking us through all of that. Very grateful to you. Thank you for having me again, Mark. Dr. Davis Hanson's program is available to you. You can hear him on a regular basis, not just when he stops by here. His program airs on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays and Saturdays. Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday. It's the Victor Davis Hanson in his own words podcast available on YouTube and wherever you get your podcast

grateful to you for being here. All right, that's it for today's program. We'll be back on

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