1195: The Hidden Gems of Western Scotland with Jim Hartsell

>> The right club, the right club today.

[MUSIC] >> That is better than most. How about you? That is better than most. Better than most.

[MUSIC] >> It's back anything different. >> Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the No-Langapotcast.

“Solid here we have a conversation coming shortly.”

TC and I chat with our good friend, Jim Hartsel. He's got a book out as called a round of Scottish courses. Jim is a true pioneer in terms of Americans that have gone over to Scotland, made a ton of friends, uncovered and found some hidden gems of golf courses that are off the beaten trail and just different than

what you're going to find on a top 100 list. This is the hidden gems of Western Scotland with one of the most season travelers that we've known and just do the we just delight in talking to every time. We're going to see a lot of these courses up coming in our tour saw

season this fall. So be sure to check that out. This episode is also brought to you by Titelist. The number one ball in golf. You can go to Titelist.com and explore what combination of

flight, spin and feel is right for your game with that. We're going to get right into the show. Our conversation with Jim Hartsel. >> Alright ladies and gentlemen, Jim Hartsel. The illustrious Jim Hartsel, our legend.

How are you sir? >> I'm honored to be back on with you guys. I'm doing well. I didn't know if you'd let me out after the state draft and you had Alabama in the bottom 10, but Neil came through and saved

Bama from complete oblivion. I had Neil a beer the next time I see him. But now that by the way, that was so much fun. That was that one. Yeah, I'm doing great.

Man, just trying to get the book out there. Taking about my next trip to Scotland and just happy to be talking to you guys again. >> You mentioned the book around the Scottish courses. If I may, it's an optimistic, fun, energetic romp

through just some oft overlooked destinations in Scotland. And I think the journey itself. It's kind of wrapping in 25, 30, 40 years of Scottish golf trips into one thing. And I loved reading it.

It's one of my favorites. >> Just for the list or say, Jim, can you give a little

“background of who you are or what your pedigree is?”

I think you've got a pretty decent pedigree here to write a book about Scottish golf here. People will hear why here shortly, but you hear that accent. You hear from Alabama. And the story of Jim Hartsell and the relationships you've

formed in the country of Scotland is it's just a great.

It always makes me smile.

It's a incredible journey you've been on in that country. >> Well, yes. I mean, I fell in love with it. I've written about this a good bit when I was a kid. I've just watching to open with my dad.

It was his favorite tournament. And it became my favorite tournament back then. You know, you could only watch. I think ABC showed it. It would only come on like the 12th hole on the Sunday.

And you did show Saturday and Sunday, but it'd be from the 12th hole on. I fell in love with it. And the one I remember, and this is in both of my last two books, is the 77 open at Turnberry.

And I know you guys have watched videos of that. And the course was just completely baked out.

“I would remember thinking, man, this is the way golf has”

got to be supposed to be played. And I cannot explain why other than it just was very interesting to be. And it's kind of shots they were playing. And I was only nine or 10 years old.

But I was already hooked on golf. And that just did it for me and my dad. He said, we're going to go one year. We're going to do this sometime. And it was another when I got out of graduated from college.

We planned the trip. He let me plan it. It was in 1994. The first year I went. And we went down.

And I've told this a lot. But I'd read Michael Bamberg's book to the links land. I went down to Macrehanis stayed for a week. Then branched out from there to the oak horse and car news to you. And all of the bigger places.

But I just I met some people in that trip. And that sort of became friends and got me. I joined Macrehanis the next year. It started going. And I just it just developed from there.

So yeah, you know, it's amazing.

I mean, I've got some really you met some of these people. I mean, I've got some really good friends over there. I hardly have to pay for anything when I go over there. People let me stay. They let me stay at their house.

You know, they, I mean, I, they, you know, basically I just got to get a car and a way to get over there. And I'm pretty much taken care of. And it's amazing for somebody from the group. And, you know, outside of Birmingham, Alabama and now lives in a small town in North Alabama. And it just, but it's something I love and the country.

I love the country as much as a golf and the people are just.

The people, you know, you just saw this in the World Cup where they just pretty much took over the World Cup when they came over here. They just, they're just, they're just wonderful. So your book, like, you know, it's all over Scotland.

“But I think the feels like your spiritual home of sorts is out on the West Coast.”

And especially the, you know, mole of Kindtire. And then just the exploration that that being on the West Coast, for all these islands and the outer heavardies and the wee islands and all of that entails.

Like, just, how did you, I guess going to macro-handish that first time and then to

Don Averty, how did that blossom over the next 15, 20 years? Like, you know, going from that first trip to your return trips? Yeah, that's a good question because I love that that's my favorite area. The West Coast and the, and the heavardies, the islands. And we went, we went to macro-handish.

I, I, I, I would, a gentleman introduced me to the Narrowdy, which I wrote about in the book. I just fell in love with it. And I said, you know, this is where I'm, I'm going to come here no matter what I do from now on. As you know, you guys know, this once you get hooked on this, you just think about going back as, as soon as you get home.

I mean, you get off the plane and you're like, you're tired, but then the next morning, you're like, okay, what, when can we go back?

“I think it was, you know, it was the second trip where I was, you know,”

Me, trying, you know, I've talked a lot over the years. I love the logistics of stuff and I love, like, you know, the planning of it.

And so I was, that second trip.

I was thinking, well, hey, if it's set of driving all the way down, can tire around lock lumband and down through the kilpid and all that stuff, which takes about three and a half hours. You can take, you can take a little ferry over to Aaron and just skip, and then drive around Aaron and take another ferry over.

So I knew nothing about Aaron. I was just looking at the ferry stuff and I, and I do nothing about Schiskin. I don't even think people, people didn't even talk about Schiskin back then. But I, I looked it up and I saw that there's a 12-hole course. So I told my dad, I said, look, we're going to spend one night.

We're going instead of driving all the way down. We're going to hop over to Aaron and we're going to play this course Schiskin. And then we're just going to get the ferry and go. I said it'll take a day. We stayed at the hotel there.

Like the one in black waterfoot.

“I can't, I can't think, I think of the name of it now.”

But it, um, and I just thought, man, this is incredible.

And it was just, unlike anything I'd ever played. It reminded me. And I think, you know, you know, you know, you have said that 12 holes is probably the perfect amount. And, you know, I was a lot younger than. But now as I've gotten older, I think 12 holes is pretty good amount.

But I just, I just, I fell in love with it. And it was just by accident because I was honestly just trying to find a shortcut. Which it's a great shortcut. If you don't want to drive as much because once you get off there at, um, I think you guys just took this ferry. Once you get off it coin, it gets about a nice hour, 50 minutes or maybe a 50 minute drive.

Down to the narrowed in macaroni. So that's kind of how I, I found it by accident. And I just started going there and, um, and branching out from there. I mean, I eventually started going out to some of the other islands. And I mean, the golf on these places is so wild and rough.

And I just, I just love it. So I would say it's, it came about through the logistics part of it. Just trying to figure out how to get from one place or another. And then maybe in a map, pre-looking at maps and collecting all these old golf monthly. And the back would have a little article about some hidden.

They would call it hidden gym of the month and be an article about caradale or, you know, mockery. I don't, I love, you know, stuff that you just don't. Back then you didn't hear about. I mean, obviously they're wasn't Twitter and they're wasn't Instagram. And there wasn't really even stuff posted don't line then.

So it was just, you got magazines and kind of collected articles. And I think you, I've showed you some of my scrapbooks where I collected all this stuff over the year. You know, so that's kind of how it started. So I'd 94. And then what was the next trip back after 94?

Uh, 96. We was two years away back. Yeah, I've probably been 20 over 20 times now. I had a little stretch there when my kids were, were really young. Where I, I didn't get to go for two or three years.

And I've been able to just luckily with my work and stuff. I've been able to figure out a way to get over there. And especially, you know, the last six, seven years. I've been going twice a year. I've been lucky enough to be able to do that.

And, you know, it's just something that's become a part of my life. And I just sort of planned it all year. Like I said, when I got back in April, I just missed you guys, not my much. And I started thinking about going back in August.

How do you balance going to the places?

Because I struggle with this a lot. Balance going to the places that you've come to love. And you know, you're going to have a great time at with the exploration and the curiosity and wanting to go somewhere new. And, and not, not over indexing on one of the other.

“Yeah, what is new to you at this point, you know, what, what happened?”

Well, yeah, it's, you know, Scotland has 520 golf courses, I think. That, that, that number is under dispute, but it's about that much. So I think I've played 110, 108. So I'm, there's still stuff out there, believe it or not. I've played pretty much everything I want to, I say that.

I've not been up to shit. I've not been up to shit one. I want to get up to shit one sometime. But I, you know, it's really just, I try, and it's a good point. A question, trying because it's hard. Because I want to go to Aaron and I want to spend a few days on Aaron.

I want to go to the narrative and see my friends and play in an open, a competition or two. So I've got to do that. And, but I've got to wear now. I make sure I have at least one new course and one new place in the trip. If it works out that I can get more fine, but I'm, I just try to find one that I haven't played.

I'm trying to, you know, you've, you've given me this grand telly hotel that I've not stayed at, which is up in your pit locker. I'm going to go stay there and I'm going to try to play. And I don't know if this is going to, I'm going to be able to pull this off.

But I've never played in Michael Bamberg's book, the six-hole course,

out in the free that's the kind of the homemade course that's up in the hills there. And I've, I've written to out in the free recently to see if I could get out there. And I'm going to try to do that. That's going to be my new. And if I can't do that, I'll probably pick up one.

There's like one or two in the airs for that I haven't played, believe it or not. So yeah, I try to, it's a tough, I, and I look. I've, I've been lucky to go to all these areas many times. But you know, you do have things that you love. And I just, I can't, I have to spend a few days at the narrowity.

And I have to spend a few days at, on air. And you guys have been to air and heat's magical. I mean, it just, you know, it's just another world all together. And so, but I do, I, I do want to have at least one. And sometimes more, but at least one new one that I can add to the lift.

And it just really depends. It'll be from something you've told me or another friend. I get messages from people, please come here. If you can, we'd love to have you. I'd love to host you.

But, you know, I've been able to get to just about every area, except like Shetland and Orcney way, way up there. I mean, that's basically, that's basically a Norway. Did you teach y'all know? I mean.

We were at Tane. And they were having the Orcney golf club.

“And I think Eris Kay would, like, Eris Kay doesn't have a course, but there's a club.”

And they were, they were playing a match against one another. I'm like, man, hard still needs to be at this at this dinner. Because these are his people. So I love being out on those islands, so people are so friendly. And, you know, there's just, you just been out to him recently.

I mean, there's just, you're almost alone on the earth when you're playing some of these places. It's just incredible, but yeah, but yeah, I try to, I still look for new things.

I'll take roads that I've never been on.

I mean, which can be dangerous in Scotland. You know, you think you're taking a shortcut. And all of a sudden, you're on a one lane road for 40 miles. And, you know, with passing places. But I've learned how to, fortunately, I can drive pretty well over there.

And, you know, but it can be intimidating if you're not used to it. Yeah. Well, what, I mean, what is it about the west coast specifically? Both, both air sure, air in, can tire all these islands that really speaks to you even more so than, you know, like you have a great appreciation for Eastlow, the end and five and the highlands.

“But what is it about the west coast that pulls at you?”

I think it's the landscape and just the wildness of the courses. And just, you know, donarity and so wild and macrohannishes. I mean, press week, which is just one of the greatest courses on earth. And it's just, I wish they could still somehow have the open there. It's just, it's the landscape.

It's, it's so unusual. And the history too, drawn. I mean, you know, I think the history of the west coast of Scotland has gotten started on the west coast. I mean, you know, people came over on boats from Ireland. And, you know, settled in around Kilmorton, Glenn, you know, over 5,000 years ago.

And the last several years, I spent so much time going to these historic sites.

It's just mind blowing. And like when you're out walking around Kilmorton, Glenn or one of these other sort of ancient sites on air and or wherever. It's just, it's very, I mean, I, you guys know me, you've read my writing. I get a little bit spiritual about stuff. But it is very spiritual feeling to be in some of these places.

It's hard to describe throughout there when the sun's going down or in the morning or whenever it might be. That was originally what it was and then just the people were so welcoming. And they are all over Scotland. And look, I'm not trying to say there. But there's something about being down at the narrative on air and that people just literally will do anything for you to make sure you have a good time.

And so that's kind of what drew me to it. And the golf is just fabulous.

“I mean, you, I think you guys would admit the golf is different than the East Coast.”

The courses are, especially in contire and the islands. They're rough around the edges. You know, they're, they're, they're quirky, which I love. I mean, for us, is probably the most quirky championship course in the world and I'd dearly love it. I mean, I just think it's brilliant.

So that, that's part of it, too. Yeah. Solid, you talk about done cavity because I think that's where. But like, I think when you're talking about planning a trip to the West Coast. I mean, Jim, I don't want to put words in your mouth.

But it sounds like Aaron and Aaron done cavity and then up to Mcerhand. I was like, that's, that's the center of the maze. You can play a round or two in air, sure. And then branch out and explore from there. But that's the non-negotiable.

That's like the tier one. And solid, you're point from like some of our other pods that we've done on planning Scottish golf trips. Of like, I think the tier one in, in, like, on the West Coast is different from the tier one. It's, it's a spiritual subject. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a, it's hard. This is one of the harder, harder pods to do, I guess, with like, if we're going to title this, how to plan a trip to Western Scotland, we're going to have somebody here that's been,

I don't know how many times, 30 plus times. And done this.

And if you're, if you've never been to Western Scotland to play golf,

I don't recommend you start at Caradale and the outer hemmorys and Mcerhand. You know, Mcerhand's maybe, but like that, you know, you're probably going to start somewhere on the airs your coast. So if, if you're, for reference, that's going to include the true, uh, trueness is, is, is like the, the staple there, true and turnberry are the,

you know, the top of the class there. They're the open road of courses there. They're the, you know, the courses that are, are most widely known in that area. You kind of get a little lower than that. You have Western gales.

Presswick, of course, the history there. Presswick has changed a ton, uh, you know, over the years. But it's, it's a incredible history at that club. But it's not still maintained like an open road. A course is from an infrastructure standpoint.

And then, uh, there's two courses to turnberry.

There's Robert DeBruce is the second course there.

And there's, I mean, you teach, you probably have, I have no more about the, the depth right around that area than I do, uh, from there. I've only played kind of mostly those courses, uh, from there. But from that, that kind of hub of the west coast, within shouting distance. And if you're going to only base yourself in the west.

And you are looking for some adventure from there. You can head down that basically ferry over, like you've said to the Isle of Aaron, uh, which, if you're not looking at a map, how that works. structurally, basically the, the western coast of the mainland is, is where you will find

“true and, and turnberry and press-wicked and, and the city of air, a, why are there?”

Uh, but how it works west of there across the Firth of Clyde is the Isle of Aaron. And then from that Isle, farther west is the mole of can tire. Uh, the entire peninsula, uh, which like the route to drive there to Jim's point. You know, he's kind of looking for a shortcut to get there. The route to drive there from true and is a disaster.

I mean, you got to go way up through lock-loman and the, and the, and the trossics national park up, I'm saying that right. It looks like all the way around to get onto this little peninsula. Or you could take the ferry route, put your car on the ferry and drive around Aaron and get down to Campbelltown and, uh, you got a book at beforehand.

Like you got a book away. Yeah. Yeah. It's the ferry. It's the ferry.

Yeah. Yeah. So if you have the appetite to get weird, you know, and to explore and to drive and to travel and to get to some more remote parts, uh, there's no better place to do that.

“Um, I think that's that that comes from, uh, but the same time.”

Like, I think, well, some of the best feedback we've ever heard from people is when they, they mess just after going to colon or after going to, you know, I wouldn't say bror as far off the beaten path as, as maybe as it was 10 years ago or so. But, uh, you know, I, I wouldn't ever gone here for wasn't for you. You know, I, you know, I, I'll be able to know about the main courses.

But if you're looking for a, a golf experience, that's that's the whole thing to

with like, I get, you know, I have one friend in mind always when I, when I think about

Barney or should I play this?

And he doesn't listen to any of our content.

“And I'm like, that's how a lot of people think about the trip that just looking to play”

all of the best courses. And I, I try to get people and I know the T.C. You're even better than, about this than I am, and Jim, you're the, you're the poster boy for this of like the point of traveling to another country to play golf isn't entirely to play all of the top courses on on the list there.

And I, when I go to a new region, I want to do that. So I'm, I'm guilty of this as well. But, ex, there's, there's the recent, the recent tour sauce season that we shot and that people are going to see this fall is just re, it's just re, it's almost reimagining golf is how I would describe it Jim.

It, because we walked off whiteing Bay on the Alvarian and just said like, there was, there was not one, 420 yard dog leg left par four with bunkers on both sides of the fairway. Like that's, that's how a lot of golf in America is. And there wasn't one of those holes.

And at no point was I like, oh, this isn't real golf as I'm playing it. And the entire, I guess, the thesis, I guess, of this episode and a lot of the encouragement we're going to give here is like, go experience what you might call weird golf, but that's just golf to a lot of people in that area. And that is, there's a whole culture around these places and the game in this country

that we just have a continually growing appreciation for. And into your point, Jim, you're 30 plus years into doing this. You're still discovering new places, trying new places and, and, and experiencing the depth of that culture. And I'm sure we'll get into this a little bit later, but

widening Bay, my God, you know. I don't even know how to talk about it. It's hard to talk about, I mean, you know, I was so happy when, when you guys were playing and trying to know where text and a lot over the months and, towards the end of it, I said, man, you've got to go to

widening Bay and he's like, yeah, I'm going to figure it out. And when I found out you guys were going, I, I just knew you'd love it. I mean, it's not, I can't think of anything else really to compare it to. I mean, it's, but it's, as you say, what a wonderful golf club and friendly people and just a, so much fun.

“So many different shots you have to play.”

It doesn't matter. And I know I sound like a broken record about this stuff. But it's got nine par fours and nine par threes. I mean, that's ridiculous. It's just, and, and the whole, the 12th and the 15th.

Some of those holes, the 8th. I mean, you're talking about all world. I'm, I'm, I'm trying not to curse on this on your podcast. You can pause away. Some of the fucking best holes you're ever going to see in your life.

I mean, the 8th, the first time I played the 8th, I was like, oh, my God.

I think I even texted you a picture, John. And then, you know, the 12th and the 15th, when you come over the, the hill and you see the first and the Holy Island. You have, you play in the shots you can play. I mean, you can drive the green or, you know,

I don't know, it's just, and it's, again, it's, I don't even know what lighting bay is. 40, probably 4800 yards or, I don't even something like that. Maybe 5,000. I don't know.

“But yeah, yeah, I just, that kind of stuff, man.”

I get so excited about it. And, and I, and I just, I'm so happy that you guys got to do that this time. But yeah, there's a lot of that on the West. There's more of that on the West Coast than there is on the east.

And that's not meant to be a slight, but it's all over Scotland. And it's, and again, it's, you could sit in the club at House at Widing Bay for an hour after you're done. Have a sandwich and a beer and talk about what your favorite whole was and you're going to have two or three members come up to you.

And I don't know, it's, it's everything I love about golf. And, you know, just even get into the, find in the club house. You, you think you're driving through a, I mean, you don't even know where you're going. You think you're driving into somebody's backyard or something.

I mean, yeah. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's not. I mean, but I, it's the kind of stuff that I'd dearly love about golf.

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Check out Robac and stop laying up. Robac.com. Code NLU. Back to the pod. I have undying faith and trust in the both of you.

But going down that road a little bit. A teeny tiny bit. I was like, where are TC and Jim taking us today? Where are we going? What are we doing here today?

My faith was. The faith that trust was, you know, justified here by, by within a couple of holes very quickly.

“But the pulley up was just like, whoa, what do we do it here today?”

But yeah, I think even on air and like you can get, you know, you can get, like, either shiskin, quarry, whiting bay we just talked about. Real quick, TC. Can I just, I want to butt this in of,

if you read Jim's book, you figure this out pretty quickly. But I'll say like, we are afforded all of us here. Listening to this and all of us that, you know, have got to experience some of this and are able to share the tales from it is the great fortune we have.

You mentioned this Jim of the Twitter and Instagram and the sharing of this. Like, when you showed up at Whiting Bay for the first time,

you did not, I imagine you've never seen a picture of it.

I imagine maybe you had, maybe it's probably word of mouth of, you know, in a kind of a secret network. You're getting of that. But all that to say like, we're very fortunate all of you to be able to hear the tales and the places that Jim has been that are worth going.

Because that was something that was not afforded to you other than, you know, you're a little cutouts from your magazines back in the 90s. Like, it's just, it's very, very cool to have this kind of in sort of way and just a couple easy easy to reach places for that could forever be referred to. Yeah, I mean, that's the great thing about social media.

I mean, I've just a lot of these places and, you know, I've been on Twitter for since it started and, you know, get messages from people, hey, I really love for you to come by here. This is, you'd love this place.

“I mean, that's what happened with, with an everfall, you know, just for one.”

I mean, just, well, you know, who I think maybe, I don't think you met Trump, but his maybe correspondent with, he was the club captain.

Several years ago, he sent me a message on Twitter.

He said, I love your writing, I love your books. You understand, Scott is golf. I'd love for you to come by here sometimes to any way you can work it in. And I was, I'm one of the trying to get back to the airport. One trip, I went up there and I'm like, God, oh, my, this is magical.

I mean, and nobody knows about it. Nobody comes by here. And so, that's kind of, yes, I mean, I find out through people just contact me or, you know, now, of course, you know, I mean, I'm so crazy. I'm, I'll get on Google maps and just, it just looks like a golf course.

And just try to, I mean, seriously, I did find an area of Scotland and you'll find one. And you said, man, that looks interesting. What's the topography, like, and so I've done a lot of that. And, but people I've met have been, you know, Widing Bay Greg several years ago.

I mean, I hadn't, it's, I didn't play Widing Bay to probably honestly, I have to admit probably four or five years ago. And Greg Greg said, hey, I was playing Sheskin and Corey every time I came over and mockery Bay and other little course I love. And he said, man, you oughta go to Widing Bay.

It's right down your alley. He said, you know, you love it. And I went and, of course, he was right. I mean, after that, what is that? Number three, the little part three up the hill, the greens about the size of a hub cap.

I mean, it should, I just started laughing. I'm like, okay, I understand. So, yeah, I mean, it's just word of mouth. And, you know, that's, that's one of the things about this book. I, these places need visitors to survive.

You know, Aberfoli needs visitors to survive. More so than the places on air and even. That's part of my mission is as much as I love writing about these places. I won't people to find out about them and take a little side trip to Aberfoli or take over the Widing Bay if you're going to go to Erin.

But it's just, it comes from all, and I can't, I can't go to all the places people.

“I ask, I know you guys are, I know you must get email after email, man.”

Could you guys please come by here on tour solace? And I know it's hard. You want to, you want to help people. You can't do everything. And, you know, but, you know, every once in a while, if you can work one in,

it turns out to be something you love. And, you know, I'd like to try to help them. So, well, we heard stories when we were over on Erin. If you, you're going to go search for lost golf courses out there. Good.

What? Yes. How do you do this? Well, I love there's some good stuff in the book about that, too. Like, you just sit there at this, at this lady's kitchen table.

Well, Greg, you know, Greg, I mean, he stops.

We're going up this dirt road in Pernmill, which is sort of halfway between La Cranza and Sheskin. And just single track dirt road through farm land. You know, we're in the order we go. And we come.

The road just goes right between these two houses. It's like literally the houses are like on the edge of the road. And this old lady's looking out her front door. And Greg says, how don't stop? I'm going to ask her where the golf course was.

And she's looking at us like we're kind of half crazy. But she says, yes, it's just right up here. And you'll see the old golf house, just another few hundred yards. But yeah, that I'm fascinated. I sort of call it golf course archeology.

Just, you know, Aaron had 12 courses in-- You can debate the dates. But in the early 1900s, there were 12 courses on this island. And I just got in my mind. I want to go to the site of all these courses.

I want to write about it and try to find out what they were like. And so I started several years ago when I started. I had the idea for this book. I started trying to collect photos of these old places. And they really don't exist except on old postcards.

And so that became the original idea for the book. Or the imagery in the book was collecting these old postcards. I mean, the only place in the world that you're going to find a photo of Permil golf course, which closed and probably existed from 1895 until 1940.

“And I think the war pretty much did it in.”

You're going to find it in a couple of these postcards that were made for tourism. So I started collecting that. And then when I was several years ago, Greg took me. We spent a day. Jake was with me, my son.

Greg took us around to these sites. We got, I got him, he got permission from the farmers. You know, they're all farmland now, probably owned. And it's just fascinating. You can see how great these places would have been.

And I don't know. Like the one week Cory Cravey, we spent trying. You would just literally die if you saw the side of this place. I mean, it's, it's in, it's like a cross between Chiskin and Widing Bay. And we, the farmer let us go down.

And we, we tried to, we actually recreated one of the photos. From the, this postcard from 1920 or so. We got Jake to stand where this guy was.

And it's, it's amazing to, I, I just, to me, that's fun.

I don't know why I just, I guess some of my architecture background. And just trying to, but it's also the fact that this tiny little island had 12 golf courses. And y'all been around, y'all been there. That's, that's ridiculous. I mean, the fact that they've got, they've got seven now.

It's still ridiculous. And that chapter was one of my favorites in the book going to these sites.

“And I'm still, honestly, I've, that, I'm thinking my next book.”

I may expand that chapter into a full-blown book. I've got people that I've met over there that are looking for other stuff. That they, they know people that might have stuff in their attic or whatnot. And it's just, it's just fun to try to, because these were good golf courses. And they were, they were, they were clubs.

And, and, and the, the war did a, the, the, what happened was in the, when the war started. They, they, the golf courses were closed. The government took them over for, um, plant crops, whatever you want to call it.

And, um, they never, some of them never came back.

They just didn't recover. And that's, and that's really what happened to the ones on air and they're not there anymore. I mean, even air and like it's, it's somewhere, I've been there. I guess four times now. I thought when I went with you, Jim, you know, like, oh, man, this is such a cool place.

You know, probably not going to be back here for, I might be back here once more in my life. I've been in three times since in the last four years. And it's, but even air and it's one of those things where it's like, we drove past lamb lash five times on this last trip. And I still haven't played lamb lash or I still haven't played.

You know, Macre Bay or I haven't played La Cranza. And it's, you would love a Cranza. Yeah, I mean, yeah. But it's one of those things of like, there's just so many layers here to the West Coast, to where like, it's like, you could spend a lifetime taking fairies and just,

and just go in, you know, like, there's, like, there's just so, there's so much depth,

“I think, and there's so many, it's truly a quest for a lifetime.”

And then that's before you even get, get too far out. And there's all these other, I mean, shit, even one of the, the, um, what is it, Great Cumbra, Millport? Millport, right? Yeah, the little course there.

And like, that's a, but a 10 minute ferry off the mainland. 10 minute ferry over to the island. The town is the little town of Millport is great. And it's a James Raid course that literally has, is untouched from since 1910

Incredible. I've got to do that. I mean, you, and you don't, you don't hear about those kind of places. And, and find a, a braid course like that, that nobody has done anything to it. It's literally the way he laid it out.

It's, it's just, it's like, I think I've called Aaron, a living history museum of golf or a Scottish golf.

“And that's what it is to me because you got so much variety.”

You've got links, golf, it's just, you've got hillside golf at Liding Bay. You've got Glenn Valley golf at Corey, which is just unbelievable. Brodic is kind of parkland, but on the water. And it's just all there. And it's all up and down.

It's all over Scotland, but it's especially all up and down the West Coast.

And like you say, you can always find something, something new and different.

And that's where I think, I think, I think on our trip like even, even for me, it was, hey, we're not playing all links golf. We're playing a bunch of mountain golf or, you know, parkland stuff. And, and Sally, like, I'll, I'll even, you know, just like how, how good that variety was, how, how much, how much of a perk and a feature that was not a bug.

Yeah, I mean, what I love about playing links golf is a lot of things I love about it, but it's, you know, creativity required in shots, less something less than the aerial game, obstacles in, in weird places, funny bounces, having to use some creativity. Not think it is much about your golf swing and thinking about how the land is going to affect the shot. There's creative ways of getting a ball into a certain place and making sure it's moving the right direction

when it does land. All that is present in a lot of these places, right? You don't have to be by the sea for that. It's, it's sometimes not as firm. But then, you know, you find certain patches that Corey that you don't expect to be firm

and sure enough, like, a little punch driver on a little short part four. And it runs all the way over the green because it's just if you hit the right trajectory, you're going to get the features of the land and, and do all these things. And that, I just, I get there and I just start picturing all these different shots, all the different clubs I can use.

And I don't think about is this, you know, seven iron going to, you know, land 188 or 182, like I do when I go play golf, you know, outside my door here in Jacksonville.

So, again, it gets to that like dude, yeah, if I was going for the first time,

well, what I want people to go experience, go experience length golf, but if you're looking to get past the, you know, the breadth and depth of those offerings, there's a lot, a lot to be found and explored and experienced. And some of these places too, like, I think, and not specifically, you know, somebody's kind of off the beaten pad,

places that are hard to get to, maybe not as much. But it's hard to play 36 holes in a day, like it turned very enthroned. Like, you're just not going to do that.

“That's how I'm getting old back. It's expensive. It's expensive. It's hard.”

It's hard. Something like, you know, we played what, the place just getting winding bay on the same day. Is that, do I have that right? Like, yeah, and that didn't feel like too much at all. It was just against 12 holes. Witing bay was a walk and it's 18 holes.

But it's, you know, par 63 and it's not, there's something to like, the days are long. And if you're looking to knock off a couple different experience that knock off the wrong phrase, if you're going, if you're looking to go and joy, some golf in a couple different places,

experiencing two places in one day that aren't going to kill you, might be a better day than experiencing one top great 18 holes, 7,000 yard golf course. I agree with that. I mean, those, as much as I love train and turnberry and these,

these, these courses are hard and they will, they will beat you up and I look, I think people should play them and, and I'm not trying to discourage that. They're, they're, they're brilliant. But, you know, you, it, it wears you down and you can't,

like you said, you can't do 36.

I mean, you know, I've always said,

like I'll do this when I go over in a few weeks. And you know, I'm, I'm in my 50s. I mean, I play, I walk Korean shisken as 21 holes. I'm not sure there's a better day of golf than that, honestly, in the world.

At, you know, 21 holes, the morning at core, the afternoon, have lunch at shisken, go into the, the pub there at the hotel after after you're done at shisken. And you're, you're sad, and you're not, and you feel,

“I think I've written about this and I've talked to you about this,”

trying, you almost feel energized after that. I don't know how to explain it. You know what I mean? You, you, you, you, you, you, you, you feel like, man, I'm just, I'm energized. I just, I don't know, you're, it, it gives you energy.

It doesn't, it doesn't take it away. And, and, and, and, I don't know, it's just, um, I totally agree. And, and just back real quick, I used to be a little bit of a snob in the early years about,

I've just played in Link's courses. Why am I going to come here and not play a Link's course? I mean, but I finally realized, I went to Glen Eagles when you're, and played the Queen's course, and I'm, oh my god,

what am I, what have I been denied myself here? You know, you've got these places, the boat of garden, these, the, the, the, just brilliant gallery. Yeah, yeah, but, just the stuff is just crazy good.

I've, I've, I've, I've, I've default to the Link's stuff as well,

“but there's so much variety there in the mountain golf,”

and the Heathling golf, and, um, you know, so, yeah, I, I don't, don't be, don't be discouraged by the course, not being on the ocean, because, you know, your level, the views, it's, say,

somewhere like, boat of garden, or just, just be on, be on the leaf. So, and, and, and, and, before you just spend the hour before, I mean, some of the pictures you took it hour before, I mean, they're, they're some of the best photos

I've ever seen you, that you've taken to be quite honest. That was, that was the fourth golf course I played that day, and I went out thinking, all right, I'm gonna have a little look around here, and, you know, I mean,

it's, it's in the foothills of the trussics there, and, and it's, it's a big walk,

and I remember texting Jim on like the second holes,

like, oh, yeah, okay, now I see why, and that's not even up, you know, up the hill yet, and then I get up to five, six, seven, and I'm like, holy shit Jim, you under sold this place.

Yeah, you took a picture on the fifth, that I just, it looked like it could be on the cover of, you know, golfers journal or something, I mean, that was just with my level. I know, I know, I know, I know,

“I know, I know, I know, that's what I'm saying.”

It's ridiculous, and I don't even know what it is now, 20 pounds, 25, I don't know. But yeah, that was the only person on the course too, and it's, you know, the sun's going down and you're looking out towards

the clock moment and all that stuff, but Jim, I think like the thing that, and this comes through and you're writing a lot, and that's why I love this book so much, is because you, it's about the journey,

and it's about like the act of traveling,

not necessarily the act of getting to a destination

or, you know, playing this place and checking the blocks, it's like, no, like, hey, I came on this trip to play this golf course, and here's the six other golf courses I played along the way, that I wasn't even expecting to play,

and I think that there's something about the DunAverty's and the, you know, the shiskins or the Aberfoils that, they're not going to beat you up, and they allow you to have the energy to go travel,

and to, you know, like Jim, when we went to Isle of Seal, of course, or, you know, stopping through open, or like, I mean, some of these places where I have a plan, but you're just like,

you're, you're so energized and you're so excited to explore and, and for the drive, and for the little sandwich places along the way, or little pubs, because you feel like, you know, like, you're not,

“I think when you're playing the big championship”

36 whole days,

there's just not a lot of energy for other stuff.

You gotta, you gotta, you gotta leave that in. I mean, you know, you've got to do that. I mean, you know, you're a bit of a foodie, but, you know, the food is wonderful in Scotland. I mean, that, that green seafood hut,

in open, that I know you've been to, that we've been to, it's right. I mean, the stuff is just come out of the water, an hour before you eat it, probably. I mean, it's just, and it's wonderful.

It's just a little shack on the near the ferry terminal, and yeah, you could spend a day walking around open and just sitting and looking at stuff. And so yeah, I mean, I, you, give yourself, that's part of my,

I try to, in both of my books, like even when revelation comes, that was one of the blessings of that trip where I was over there for such a long time. Was I didn't really have a schedule? I mean, I just, I would get up and I would, you know,

I would be going, like, okay, I'd have a destination, like, I'm, I'm going up to Dernas, but I've got, along the way, what am I going to see on the way to Dernas? And if I saw a sign, like I saw a sign for

I was sky, I think on that trip, and went over there and played the course, the Dernas, how course they're, this wonderful, you know, so just, if you're able, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it just,

you know, it's, you know, it's, if you're lucky enough to be able, and I, granted, I'm not going to say it was, luck was involved, but just, because there was a terrible reason I went over there for the trip,

but I was, I was fortunate to be able to stay for so long, and I really just did what I wanted, and I would go find, I'd see a sign, and I knew there was a golf course, I mean, gear lock,

and I didn't plan to go to gear lock, or lock Aaron, or I was just on the way to Dernas, and I didn't really plan to play Rey and Wick. I was just on the way from Dernas down to Brora,

but I'm like, okay, and I didn't even have, you know, that's the beauty of going at certain times of the year, as you don't have to,

and other, you don't have to plan to far ahead, and also a lot of these places, you can just, you can just drive up on the day and play. You don't have to ride the ladder.

You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder.

You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder.

You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder. You don't have to ride the ladder.

You don't have to ride the ladder.

You know? The day I played Ray golf course, which is a wonderful braid course. Almost to John Agroats. I saw one other guy on the course.

He got played through me on the second hole.

We're third hole. I remember talking to him for a minute. Didn't see another cell out there. And this is a fabulous golf course. I mean, it's a James braid.

Another one of these braids. It's really untouched. And there's an experience to be found in these places. And a lot of it, you know, like you say, I mean, it takes a lot of the pressure off the travel part of it too.

“Because, you know, y'all know, you have to, you have to book, turnberry and train in the oak.”

You have to book these things. You're a year ahead of time at least. And a lot of these places you can just say, you can just show up and play. I mean, as much as the neighborhood gets a lot more play now. I looked at the T sheet, though, and there was just, you could, you could have played any, almost any time.

So, yeah. Let's kind of work our way out from the coast.

Let's go up and down the air shirt coast, even down to.

We can include, you know, the stuff a little bit farther south of there as well. And then kind of work our way out. We've talked a lot about Aaron. We've talked a little bit more about Kindtire. And then we can talk kind of work our way out to the northwest and talk about all these other.

All these other places along the way. Because I think it's, it's one of those things. Like if somebody's going to do, like, I feel like we're giving people ingredients for a trip. All right, here's, you know, here's your stock. Here's your base for, uh, air shirt.

You know, whether it's, uh, so like, like Jim, what's your, let's say you were just going to air shirt. What, what are your, can't miss non negotiables. Press wick be in the top of the list there. Press wick would be the top. And probably Western gales.

And um, there's a public course in hair called air brallow that I really like. I would add that it's just to get, so you can kind of see a true public course. I like Barassie. You know, I would, I would think about playing Barassie, but you've got so much there. Box odd and, um, a box, a box odd couple of those made my, made my eclectic or my dreamy scene.

I saw that, I saw that. I was happy, I was proud of you for that. But there's just so much there, but I mean, to me, you got to play press wick. The train, I would say the, the train public courses are great. Uh, lock green and, um, what is the other one?

Darly, I think the other one's called. Uh, so you can, now they are so popular and they're so booked up. But you can get a tea time. You can get off there. Uh, but I would say press wick.

You have to play in Western gales. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, yeah. It's hard.

It's going to be like, it'll be up a little bit, especially if the wind's up. It is hard. You know, train.

“I think train is moved up honestly in my estimation over the years.”

It used to have kind of a reputation of this tower. You know, place. I don't see it that way. I think the last open, the last couple of open. I think it's, I think it's solidified as place as far as I'm concerned and the road.

But I, yeah, I think you had to start with press. And, oh, I don't hate to leave this. That's the same necklace to it. I was going to, that's what I mean. Press that's same necklace is great.

And I've got some good, I've met some wonderful people there. It is a historic club. And it's got some great golf holes. And it's not very expensive. I think it's, it's probably 70 pounds to play.

Uh, it's, it's a, it's a brilliant golf course. So I didn't, I'm glad I, I was about to say that. But press the same necklace. And then you can't go wrong. I mean, you, you want to add, um, you know,

the turnberry, you know, it's hard to play. Turnberry is so expensive. But, um, you know, um, there's another course. Well, you can, we're getting kind of out of the range. But, you know, further down pork patrick and strong rare,

or not that far past turnberry. You could almost, you could almost work them in. Um, I love that. Those are more headlands, like more kind of down the coast, uh, St. Medan's pork patrick.

Yeah, more kind of. They are up on the, yeah. Yes, they are more headlands, um, strong rare is kind of a mixture of headlands and sort of Heathland.

And it's a, it's braids last course. But that little area, if you can get down there and play, uh, St. Medan and, and strong rare and pork patrick, like attack that on to the being an air sure, um, it's not, I mean, it's not more than an hour or an hour,

hour and a half drive to get down there and pork patrick is a stunning little seaside town. Um, so that, that, that was a place that, uh,

“I, I think after I left to you that when we went,”

five or six years ago, uh, or half an hour,

whenever we did the film, basically about three or three years ago now,

at the on air and I went down to pork patrick and loved it. Um, so yeah, there's just, it's a cliche, but you can't, it's hard to go wrong,

but I would, I would never skip press.

That would be the one that if I was going to be an air sure, I just, I just wouldn't skip press. Press week, such a welcoming club. You know, so friendly.

“I think it's going to be, you know, it's this,”

historic, um, you know, kind of blue blood place and you think, and, and I found me, you're filled to be the same thing, like you show up and like, you truly are a member for the day and they, like, it's just a wonderful dining room with that big window looking out. And it's, it's just a really hospitable group of people.

And a hundred percent. So friendly and for such a historic club, I mean, well, they treat everybody this way, but I mean, I've, I've been treated so well there over the years and I've got a couple of, I've got a really good friend who's one of the main caddies there who has been great to me.

And I just love it because I like the, I love the history, but the holes are great and the courses, and always such pristine condition. I mean, I'm not a huge condition person, but I, when somebody has a course so spotless and perfect,

I take my hat off to them. I mean, it's, it's, it's perfect links condition. It's a golf macabre. You can't, but, you know, start with press. Thank you.

If you play press week, I think you understand golf. Yeah. Like you understand how it developed and why it developed and brings it back to the soul that we're talking about it on our positive day. We think that they should have a, a women's open up press week.

The coolest thing ever. So they've had, they didn't have to British amateur there within the last 15 years.

“Maybe, I think that was the last big thing they had with British ham.”

You know, you've been out there, they added some teas. I mean, they've made it as long as they can, you know, even with these teas, these ridiculous teas. I put in a few places. I think it's still 68, 6900, the most.

And the ball row. I mean, it just, you, the ball just rolls forever and ever and ever. If you're, if you're going, then the right direction. You could hit a, I mean, I, I have hit, I have hit literally a 450 yard drive at press week on the 13th.

I mean, on the 12th, the par five and I, I'm not making this up. I mean, it was just dead downwind and I just nailed it. It got up in the jet stream and my catty, he jumped up and he said, he said, he said, you're not going to believe where this ball is going to end up.

And I think that that car five is five, 40 or five, 50. And I'm not a, I don't know, man. But I, I had a wedge into it. I mean, I think now, yeah, granted, if you're playing the other direction,

you're going to, you're going to be lucky to reach the green in five shots. But that's just, that to me is, and that's just the fun of playing in Scotland. I mean, you just got to laugh at all. You got to take what the conditions give you.

That could be anything. And we were denied it in April. We had hail blowing sideways. And then the sun came out. And then it was rain.

And then the wind was blowing 25 miles an hour. And we were just laughing the whole time. And, you know, you just got a, if you're, if you're not able to withstand that kind of thing, then you don't need to, you don't need to go over play.

You need to stay here and play. Need never play. Yeah. Yeah.

What, all right, so Barassie, I've never played there.

“I've heard, it can be polarizing because there's a lot of dog legs, right?”

Mm-hmm. It's got, they rerouted some of it. And it's, well, it's got, it's got 27 holes. The original nine, which I love. And I can't think of what they call that original nine now.

I'm not hillside, something. But, and it's, but they, they combined, at some point they did read it some of it and combined it with some of the other 18. It reminds me it's got some holes. It's got some holes by the railway, just like terrain.

What's the railway, how will it train 11 maybe? Uh, yeah. Uh, they, there's a couple of holes like that that are really good. I, I like Barassie, and I have to admit I'm, I get, I get influenced by just how friendly people are sometimes.

The club is so friendly and the general manager there is a great guy. And he's, really proud of the experience. That's why it is. Yeah, it is. Yeah, it's why you travel, right?

Yeah, it's not just about the golf course. Well, they've got a Walker Cup room there. They have, there's been four Walker Cup players that were members at Barassie. You'll love this pool of trying Gordon Sherry was, was one of them.

The, the great Scott who never quite made it.

Um, I try, I can't think of it. But he, he's the one that jumps to mind. He got it. One that's got his amateur maybe in 95 or something and then just kind of faded out. But, um, or when the British amateur.

Um, and, but anyway, they've got a great sort of history there. I, I, I, I love it. I, I think it's got, it reminds me of train. It's not, um, it's got some quirky holes too. And, but I, I probably lean toward more just because of how friendly the, the people are there.

What about Glasgow Gales?

I was to Western Gales. I never played that one.

I have not played that one.

“I have to admit, um, it's one of the few in airship that I have not played.”

I have heard nothing but good things about it. But it's a fairly traditional club from what I understand. I've talked to people that have played it. But, um, I have not played that one. I, um, probably need to get by there.

And then Sally, I know you've played done Donald. I've never played it. I've watched it a lot on the, uh, you know, whether the women's Scottish or, or, you know, kind of who.

Just, what Kyle Phillips, right?

Kyle Phillips. Yeah. It's a, it's a fine golf course.

“Again, kind of just flies in the spirit of almost everything we've talked about for the last 55 minutes of.”

Yeah. It's not overly showy. It's, it's not, um, it's just, um, yeah, it's not contrived. It's not contrived. It's not contrived.

It's not a bad golf course. It's just not, it's really, really, really, really hard to execute. Um, and that's where I would say, like, castle stewards in the class of its own in terms of, like, blending a, a modern links course into the natural Scottish landscape. Like, it castles to what feels modern and it's not in this region to be clear.

Uh, but everything else has just kind of felt like a weird made for Americans kind of experience. And that, I, it's just so hard to recommend something like that when I feel like you're truly missing out on the purpose of traveling to Scotland when you end up at some of these places. Well, you know, King's Barnes, I still think clears the bar for me, like it is, um, I know it's not your favorite TC, but, um, Dundonald is not in the same category as King's Barnes if you ask me.

Like, it's all scenery. Yeah, it falls woefully short of, of King's Barnes to the point where, um, when somebody has done Donald,

I get a lot of emails and questions from friends and whatnot of, here's our 188 always has done Donald on it.

And I, I feel bad, like, for the people at Dundonald when I say, like, I, it's like, I would sub something else it. I, if I was you, I would do something different. You're going to have a more memorable experience, uh, probably doing something that's a little bit off the beaten path. Well, I'll tell you along those lines.

“I mean, I've played King's Barnes two weeks after it opened, I believe it or not.”

And I just, uh, I'm not, I don't lean toward those courses, but I, I understand people that love them and I respect that. I'm really excited for our mutual friend, uh, Rob Collins doing the new, the new street course at Donnick. I, I want to see what Rob does with something like that. I mean, you've, you've hit the nail on the head.

I saw, it's, it's hard to, one of the hardest things is to make something look old or like it's supposed to be there. It's takes a really special talent. Um, and I think Rob can pull it off. I don't know what he's, I know they're working on it. And, but I'll be, I'll be excited to get up there to see how, because, you know, when you do these new courses,

I mean, even Mac Dunes, which a lot of people love and I, and I like, um, I, I, it's probably unfair criticism, but it's, it's hard to make them feel like Donnick already does or, or Mac or Hannish does or, um, you know, or press. It's just, and maybe that's just the fact that something that's been there 130 years is going to be, you know, it's just going to be, it's just going to be different, you know, but it'd be interesting. I'll be, I can't wait to see what Rob does up there and I can't wait to get up there and.

And I've not played Dornick in a few years, but I want to play his his new course whenever it gets done. It's, it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's, you know, a lot of the cork that comes from these gold courses is just like, well, yeah, what do you, of course it's a blind shot. We didn't have like, bulldozers to move the, you know, but now if you do it. You're kind of like, are you been a little too cute? Like, yeah, we have the ability to kind of do what we want now and it's just a charm factor of that's that's just a challenge doing a modern course really, it's not.

It's, yeah, it's, it's hard to execute that when, yeah. As much as I love, like, I love blind shots, like, I love the fourth hole at the narrowity, but if somebody tried to build the fourth hole at the narrowity, now that people would say they're out of their mind, they'd tell you're crazy. You're, you're, this is a joke. What are you doing? But, but when you're there, you're like, man, this is just, this is pure fun. I mean, it's just, you know, and, and it's, and you stand up there when you get on top of that,

and you're like, this is perfect. This is a perfect grain site, but it's also hard to create a lot of those places, you know, were laid out where they found the grain sites and they just worked out from there, you know, like, this is a great place to put a grain. Now, let's figure out where we can, how we can get to it and do not have a grain site. So, you know, there's a lot of things we can do, but, you know, it's just, it's no matter how good of an architect, you are, you can't recreate something that's a natural occurrence. It just, you can try and some people are successful at it, you know, Rob's been successful at it. Other architects have, but it's still a different, it's like, again, like the fourth of the ninth of the gravity with this, this grain down in this sort of natural punchbow.

All right, let's, we've talked a lot about Aaron, I feel like we've covered down on Aaron and our, our videos, you know, with you, the Torah sauce videos, like there's plenty, I think there's plenty to go on with Aaron, it's only, it's only a 55 minute hour long ferry ride over there, like people, I would encourage people, like it's, it sounds, like it sounds, and then when, when you're over there, it feels like going to, like you're in Hawaii or something like that, like it's, it's on the right.

“Like you're in Hawaii or something like that, like it's, it's on the edge of the earth, again, it's, it's less than an hour ferry ride to get over there.”

So when you guys proposed this trip, it was like, right, we land and the same day we're taking a ferry, it was like, it seemed like too much on paper and experience it was like, oh, like I can go play golf right now. You know, when we did, okay, it was not, it was nothing, honestly. Yeah, so, and so, all right, so going like skipping over Aaron, because we've, we've talked a lot about that, taking the ferry into clown egg or even if you're just going to take the ferry into Campbell town.

Let's, let's talk about, Dunaverty, Mcerhandish, Mcdones, Caradale, G, like basically the stuff there on the mole of can tire and then we'll move outward from there.

Jim, it's not, you know, like between Mcerhandish, Dunaverty, it's like that's, I mean, Sally, like that was a perfect 36-hole day for you guys, like it was, it was on the back end of a lot of travel and everything and you guys got down to Dunaverty and we're like, oh my gosh. Yeah, I mean, Mcerhandish, full length golf course, going to beat you up a little bit, you know, tough golf course, 18-hole full, you know, not, not 7,000 yards, but in the sixes easily, like traditional golf in the way that we typically think about it.

You get to Dunaverty and it's a par 60, remind me, 66, something like that. 66, 66, 66, 1 par 5 under 5,000 yards and it was, it was awesome, like it was such a great 36-hole day. We got there thinking maybe we'll play a few holes, we'll play 11 holes, we'll mess around with our own routing. We kind of really didn't even, you know, say this out loud to each other, but I think we were just all like, oh, I think we're playing all 18 here today because this is just an awesome night for it and it, I don't know, man, I feel like I've said this in a lot of different, you know, content we've done recently, but there's just something to like a 280-yard simple par four that is fun for everyone.

I am almost exactly scratch golfer right now and like there's a challenge to be had in that for me and as soon as I teed off on that golfer, I'm like, oh my dad would love this place, like he would love it, like we would have so much fun there and like the our experiences would be very different together at McRahanish in terms of like love of that golf course. But like, did I ever do I, none of the people I like and respect would not like this. It's just so fun to just hit random shots and get out of your own brain on how far a ball is supposed to go and like the natural use of the terrain and just the beauty of that place, it was everything you describe it to be and it led to one of the most, you know, we hit the jackpot on weather, but it led to one of the most special nights of golf that just a night.

“It's up in my top 10 of like I will never forget like the images of that night.”

You listen, I love the place, it's my favorite place in the world and I was so nervous that you guys were not going to get to play.

You were a bit like three o'clock in the morning, that's the guess. Well, I knew that you were playing McRahanish and I know McRahanish can be hard, especially when the wind's blowing and it's a tough golf course. And I'm like, man, they're going to be too tired to go to the, the narrow thing. I knew you guys were going to be relaxed.

You're going to the hotel, they're going to get in the hotel, have two tenants and just, and not get up.

I was very too Jim. I was on the area out to Barry.

“And so I, I think I even texted you, Salio, before you left, you said something like, well, we may just play the first few holes.”

And I think I said, you've got to play at least get out to 11, try to play all 18 if you can. And I knew you would love it. It's just brilliant golf and it's beautiful in the shots that you play. You talk about these short-power floors. I'm going to get, I'm going to get like a preacher here for a minute, but, you know, you, they're 280 or 260 or there's part three, which is harder than some of the power floors. But if you look at this, and I've played these holes so much now, I know the strategy of them.

If you hit the right side of the mound, you're going to roll on down to the green, like the ninth.

I mean, if you, just, there's so much, you know, even for somebody that's a great player like you guys are,

“you get on that 11t and you think, well, what am I going to, is there still strategy involved in it?”

Because I've got to fly this mound or I've got to land it here to get it to run down on the green or drivers really too much. So I try to hit a two or three iron or a hybrid or something. I don't know, the variety there is just endless and it does not beat you up. I mean, it's not easy. I mean, by any means, I mean, I think I played in a lot of competitions there. And, you know, you know, something 68 is a good score, you know, 68 will usually, usually win.

One thing they've done in the last few years, and I'm David McBrain, who you guys met and Toronto met a wonderful, wonderful man who's been the Greens. The Greens, they call him the Greens convener for about 25 or 30 years. And he's just, he's got some new equipment. He's cut back some of the rough to the point where it's still a penalty,

but you can find your ball and I've had this discussion with David a few years ago.

He's like, you know, why do we want people to lose a ball on every hell?

I said, that's no fun for anybody. So now they've cut some of the rough down to where you can get in there and find your ball and hack it out, or maybe if you get lucky, even advance it. And, but yeah, the fairways are wide enough and the wind changes direction. You've got so much direction on the hole, the so much variety on the holes,

punchbow greens, just, I knew you'd love it, and I got, in fact, every one of the guys that were there, Neil and big, even Ben and, and they all texted me separately. And Cody, Cody did too, just individualized man this place. Thank you for making us make sure we maybe y'all picked up on the fact that I was getting nervous at Joe weren't going to play.

I don't know. But I'm so glad I was so relieved, and I think I texted you, you may have been on the ferry to Harris or somewhere, but you said they loved it. And I said, yeah, I've heard from all of them individually. So yeah, I think you can see why I've built it up so much over the years.

And it's just a very unique place and go off in the people, the clubhouse. It's just everything about it, it's perfect for me.

“That's why I've written about it so much.”

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was this place a place I'd recommend to somebody, or a place that I'm like, you are missing out if you don't go. And it's like, I think you're missing out if you don't go, which is a high bar to clear in terms of like recommending a golf course. It would be like, I would suggest people to,

yes, if you're too tired, and it's six o'clock at night, and you haven't even to go, go do it, go do it. You will not regret it. It is, you know, you'll see pictures of it later, and we'll have regretted not being able to experience it.

It'll energize you. Love to play it again. Yeah, it's kind of, I could see why you loved to play it on repeat too, because it was like, I felt this way for watching when revelation comes. I'm just like, oh, that's a golf course I gotta go see.

Like, those shots look so fun, and I don't even know what the whole is there, but that's a shot I want to hit, and it was, I would think about that place a while. I think there's something with like, like, let's say you're a good player, and like, man, like, all right, like, I really want to break par, or I really want it, like, I want to see how good I can shoot,

and like, that's such an interesting, like, going and playing offense on a course like that. There's some little spots that can just trip you up, and it's such a good mental exercise of getting the ball. The dance. That's all we have left it.

Yeah. How about the dance? You can make a turn on the moon. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think, I think you were one under,

when we came into that whole one day and wound up walking off with a tin, I think, on the whole, it just, I don't know. I'm very biased about it, but I, it's, when I will say this, where else have you been that it's like, don't have any.

I mean, there's, you know, it's just, there's nothing really like it. And, you know, it was laid out in 1889 by the original members. I mean, it wasn't an architect that laid it out. It was just, it was local men, you know, people from Cameltown that farmers and stuff.

And I think they knew what they were doing.

“And I remember I'll never forget when we drove in there,”

trying to first trip a few years ago.

and you just literally just started laughing.

And just like, I can't believe this. You know, we're driving between the green and the river. And this is, this is just a real hoe. I'm like, yes. And it just, we're else if you see a hoe like that,

that has a river right in front of the green. And it's just, I don't know. I love it. I never get tired of it. I play when I go over there.

And when I go this time, I'll play every day. And, you know, I may even play 36 one day. Cause I, you know, there's a couple of climbs out there. You know, climbing up the 12th and climbing up the hill.

Yeah, that's a tough climb up 12.

But it's not, it's not hard to walk. I would say in the big scheme of things. It's just got, it's got a couple of climbs that are, that get you. But you can, you can handle that in a, in a round. So, um, yeah, um, I can't say enough about it.

I've written about it just to the point that people probably get tired of it. But I just, I find something new every time. I mean, I've just, I'm thinking of another story about it. And there's just so much, and the members are just, they've, they've treated me like family.

And, um, I can't wait to be back in a few weeks. Hmm. Well, the, um, in, I think, Mcerhandish Mcerhandish Dunes have talked about that. I mean, like, how would you, you guys have both played Mcerhandish Dunes.

I have not. How would you, something that up? It sounds like it's gotten better over the years as well. Like they've, they've gotten good work.

“I, I just, I think it's a good golf course.”

I, it just, uh, some of the walks, and I understand why they had to lay it out the way they did. But some of the walks from tea to grain just are so disheartening. Um, and maybe that's not a fair criticism, but when you've played Mcerhandish, and every tea is literally two steps from the, the other, the next grain,

you're like, you get on some of those hoes of Mcerhandish. You're like, "God, I'm not even, when, when are we going to get there?" But it's, look, it's beautiful, and it's got some really cool grains. I'll, you, you're a much better player than me. It's a, it's a very hard golf course.

I, I think. I, I experienced it on, you know, the, it was a, I did the double-debt Mcerhandish in Mcerhandish Mcerhandish, Mcerhandish in Mcerhandish in Mcerhandish Mcdoons back in 2017, and I had kind of a tough weather day when I did it.

And I wish I, I wish my memory was stronger in it other than, I remember it being pretty heavily criticized at the time. And I remember having fun.

“I remember like, you know, I think the sun came out when I was out there,”

and it, uh, to your point, I've looked at it back on, on the maps and the gym, and it is like, yeah, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, they're, I assume it's SSI, or SS, SI related reasons as to why, you know, you know, the, the, the, the, the teetigreen walks are bigger than they are, and it feels, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's a little manufactured.

The greens are crazy, and it's just a, it's a different, you know, not just a traditional laid out Scottish links, but like, it's not, it's not the castle course, right? It's, it's, it's a different, it's a, it's a different brand of, of DMK, uh, then, then that, and I, I, I, I would recommend it.

I mean, I, it's a, it's a strong golf course if you ask me. At, to your exact point, it is not a traditional, easy walk. Uh, here's, here's, you know, that, that is part of, I think it's a totally fair criticism, Jim. I think that's, that's part of the charm of these golf courses. It was like, yeah. Hey, the origin of the game used to be, you teed up the ball

within two club links of the whole of the actual cup prior, like then, eventually we ended up with teaboxes and moving away from it, but like, big walks to teaboxes are not a natural thing when it comes to, the game of golf when it comes to the history of it. And, uh, the farther we drift away

“from that, I, the worse off we are, because I think golf has meant to be like,”

just go, you know, hit it, find it, hit it again and keep moving to keep rolling. Yeah, it's, that's the thing about it. It's just, you know, a lot of these places we're talking about. I mean, hell, you hit over the, the next tey, you hit over the green and just played in some cases. And I love that when you're walking, especially, it just, the rhythm of that is just fun.

And, uh, it gets, but I, I'm, I'm like you, I always tell people to,

people ask me, and I say, yeah, play it. Uh, now I would play Macaranis three times to one for Mac, I mean, that's just me. But I definitely people, and the people are very, very friendly that run the course. And it's, it's worth it to do it. And they're, you know, they're building allegedly another 18. I've, I've been out to the site and a lot of it's kind of

and farm land will be interesting to see how that one turns out. There's not as much as doing land left, but it's supposedly it's, what they've been talking about it for five or six years, but I heard recently that they're starting to get a little bit more movement. I think having some more critical mass down in that area, it would only help, right? And yeah, camel towns cool. Like, it's just,

I don't know, it's just an interesting, like, you got the big runway there. And, and, you know, you're what 20 miles to Northern Ireland across the water. But it's just a crazy kind of, just piece of geography. And then, so Jim,

It's just, it's kind of like, a little bit more rustic than, you know,

it's more headland, more rustic. You get the views out to Aaron, but, like, and it's a tough drive up from camel town, but it's also, like,

“I think if you're making that drive and you have a spare two or three hours,”

it's not to be missed. Now, everybody that I've sent to Caradale has loved it. It's very quirky. It's a kind of stuff I love. I think the day that you and I played there, you said something to the effect of this is one of the most fun rounds of golf. I've ever played in my life when we got, when we got done, you know, that first hole is just straight up hill par three. And then when you get up on that second T,

looking down, the second hole is just brilliant. And you're looking straight out to Aaron, and across the hill brand and sound. And it's just one after another. And it's these weird greens that are kind of cut into the side of hills, and kind of like Cory has a couple. And, you know, the six hole we've talked about, you and I've talked about, I've written a story about the,

well, it's in the book. A lot of it's about the six hole. One of the best holes you'll ever play, and just this crazy green that you just busted out life. And when you saw it, when we were there, and you're just like, I can't,

this is just incredible. And like you said at the time, I mean,

nobody would, nobody in the right mind would build something like that. But that's the way it's been for 120 years. And, you know, they've had the same greens keeper for 42 years, Robert. But it's a little, and he takes care of it by himself. It's a little bit, I would even say it's a little bit more rustic than our good bit more than denarity. But I love it, and people that go there, love it. And, you know, if you're,

if you're the kind of guy that gets caught up on having greens that are 10, 11 on the step meter, and this is not for you. I mean, you just turned this podcast off. You should not be in our 50s. Yeah, yeah, it's not for you.

It's a different kind of golf. It's one that I love. And I think it, I think it's still a, a challenge. I mean, it's still, you're still, you're still, you still have to get the ball in the hole. I mean, and so,

but yes, I always tell people to try to get my caradale either on your way.

It's, I think it's probably 35 minutes, 40 minutes up from Campbelltown up the, one of the wildiest roads in the universe. But it won't be much traffic, it's the best good part of it. But I think, yeah, I think when we took that trip for the, for the film, when Revelation comes, I, I got, I came way thinking it was one of your favorite places. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Just some of the strongest holes on the trip, I thought. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

“I think so, I, Gia, is that one, have you been there?”

Or is that? I have. I have. I would go over and eat at the Boat House restaurant. It's right on the water. It's, it may even have a Michelin star. I don't, if it doesn't, it ought to have one. You would, and then play, this is, it's a very rustic nine-hole course. There's a guy that takes care of it when he has time.

But I enjoyed it. I thought it was fun. It's got some couple of good holes. And you're playing golf on a island in Scotland. So, but I would not, that would not be one that I would build a trip around. But if you had to have, if you, if you were going, I would recommend going over to, the problem with going over to Gia is

the fairy is so weird. The fairy is so weird. Like it, the last fairy is like, you can't even, I think the last fairy leaves at six o'clock or five, thirty coming back. So, even if you're going there to eat, you've got to eat a late lunch, kind of late tea, yeah, yeah.

“So, that's what, now you can't stay out there. There's a hotel or two,”

but, and I love the little island, but that's not one that I, I don't, I don't even, I don't put it in the caratale. Yeah. Toe of, of things, and all. And then, I look, like, you're staring out at Ila, Jura from, you know, from McRahanish there. And you got the peaks and all of that.

It blows my mind that there's only one golf course on Ila. And that's the last thing. Yeah, there used to be more. There, I think there was three at one point and two of them closed. The same sort of story as Aaron. The mockery, I've played the old course three or four times and loved it.

It had 18 or 19 blind shots. I've not played the new. They, they, they, breed did it completely in within the last six or seven years, I think. And everybody that I've talked to that's been out there. Loves it and says it's great. And I'm sure it is. I think they got rid of some of the blind stuff, but it's,

I have to talk to somebody recently that had been out there and loved it. You know, it's the, the, there's seven to, there's seven whiskey to stories out there. I believe that's right. So it's a great place to go and spend a day or two to play the course.

Things to do and just the way the, the craftsmanship that goes in

to making this stuff. I'm fascinated by anything that people spend so much time trying to perfect and, and it's an art form. I love and I, so I love taking those tours. And so I think it's, I definitely think it's worth going out there. I've not, as again, I've not played what I'm calling the new course,

but everybody that I've talked to loves it. And I loved the old one was one of my favorites. I thought it was, it was just one of the most bizarre things in the world, but they, they've, they've, they've softened it up a good bit in terms of the corkiness from what I understand. And then, we're not going to talk about Art Finn

on this one. It's going to be, of course, Art Finn. Art Finn just missed, it just missed out on my top 18 in the book, trying just, I had it on the list, but just couldn't quite, I think, you know, a four, four months of your mortgage payment for around a golf, it's a little bit, a little bit too much for me.

Collin say is out that, that way.

That is one I love. That's pretty far of feel. It's a lot like I don't know. Yeah. You got to be pretty good. You got to stay a couple of nights if you're going out there, because the ferries, I think the ferries only runs.

“Well, you have to because the ferries doesn't go every day.”

It's like a Tuesday and Thursday maybe. I can't, but I love the course reminds me of Iona. It's that kind of very similar type of course. And I wrote about it a lot in when the revolution comes. But if you're, if you're looking for an adventure,

I'd go at, I'd love, the Collins say hotel. You would dearly love it. I know how you are about hotels.

It's got, I think it's got eight rooms.

The restaurant, they just cook whatever they've called that night, you know, oysters and, you know, blanket stains and what muscles, what not. Wonderful little place and you sit kind of sit out in the back garden and eat your dinner, looking out at the water. So I love Collins.

But that, that is a commitment of that's at least a, that's almost, honestly, that's almost a three day commitment to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're at that part of the plot. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And yeah, Iona, we talked about, I mean, that's probably a two day commitment to do. It's getting out, you know, getting out all the way there. It's a couple ferries from open or, you know, I guess if you're on the island mall,

um, you know, out there, but yeah, like some of these islands, there's not that, you know, there's just not that much golf they're so remote and they're pretty vast, you know. Yeah, I mean, I don't know, I love and I know you love it. You know, we did it or we sort of did it in the day.

We, we, we, we crashed the car. But, um, you know, it's, you can, we just, we just, we, we, we, we, we didn't crash, we got a flat tire. I mean, it just, um, every time I go by the quick fit and open, I think about you, honestly, I just, I usually post a picture

that says quick fit, the official tire distributor of no lying up. [laughter] But, um, it's, the roads going down. I mean, thinly, McDonald, our mutual friend will tell you. I mean, the roads are just terrible.

“So you have to, we were even, even that,”

I, I, I won't belabor that, sort of. But, you know, we were even trying to look out for pot holes. Like, we were, I, I was, I was on the lookout for them, and I didn't see this one. And it just, they're just, they're just right on the edge of the road. And they're almost, they'll just destroy your car.

So you got to, that's part of it, too. I mean, you got to, um, you got to, you got to take that into account, you know. This is the perfect time to tell you about our friends at East Sand's Golf. East Sand's helped bridge the gap between playing the most famous courses, like real dream and discovering the hidden gems of Western Scotland that can make a golf trip

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You know, opens kind of the center of the, you know, kind of like the gateway out to a lot of these last islands we'll talk about. Just, you know, then back to the Isle of Harris, South US, all of those.

I like I've driven by Glenn Crutton before from the home of, of Bobby McIntyre and his dad's the green keeper there.

I've never played it and Glenn Crutton.

Yeah. It's, it's a tough little golf course. It's very tight. It's very hilly. You can see why Bob plays the way he does.

You can see why he's very, he controls his driver really well. At least from what, what it looks like to me because you got to there. I mean, it's, it's extremely tight. It's got some good holes. It's not my favorite, but it's, because it's really hard to walk.

I mean, it's, it's so hard to walk. Um, you know, it's not one of those courses I see. I'm like, oh, I want to play there. It's like, yeah.

Okay. That looks, that was tough.

No. But when you see some of the holes, like there's a couple of the par threes. They're just stunning, but to get to them. I don't know. But no, I, then the clubs very friendly.

Um, you know, but it's, um, it's worth stopping by there and having a beer

“and play and if you want to, but just be prepared that, um, like if you were asking me,”

I tell people to play, I'll seal before going crazy. I love I'll seal. Which is not an old golf course either. They're, they're out, what? 80s or 90s.

Yeah, it was the late 80s and, um, laid out by local guys. But wonderful sort of Heathland, uh, lock side, uh, bass side course. Um, you know, 'cause you've 10 pounds to play. I think it's all day. It's 15.

Um, so that's just, it's just more as a little bit more fun. I mean, it's a little bit more fun to me. And it's easy to walk. I mean, you could walk at twice or not. So you wouldn't feel anything.

You'd be, you'd be, you know. Well, let's go out from, uh, let's go. Let's, let's just take the big ferry out from, from open to, you know, pass pass by, uh, I love mall and, and call and rum and hiring all that and go out to, uh,

like I played Barra finally.

It was, it was another one that was laid out in the early 90s. They're not really like, um, I was expecting it to be more like Ayona, as far as just that, that, you know, that kind of loomy, macarure soil. And, you know, and it, and it, and it wasn't. It was more of just more of a mud, uh, rocky kind of, you know, spectacular little golf course.

“But I think Askernish was worth the trip in and of itself out to Southwest and, you know,”

Aresca and all of that, I think. Um, it was, I was expecting it to be a lot more, uh, just found. I guess of, of, founds not the right word. I was expecting to be a lot more like, I had to squint to see the golf course. And it was in really good shape and much more, um, just, like, it was, it was much more defined

than I was anticipating it being. The, the greens at Askernish are some of the most fun wildest greens I've ever played in my life. I don't know how you feel about it, but they're just crazy. And you can play off my own and just into punch bowls. And I, I love Askernish.

I mean, if you're asking if it's worth the effort to get out there a hundred percent of days, I agree with you. Uh, it's, it's, it's just a very unique place. And if you're going out, I know you guys didn't, I don't think you all, you have to have time to get up to Iowa Harris, but um, you drive up.

Um, you get, there's one fairy up around, um, I can't think of the little island like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can take a cross there and go play out of Harris, which I do think is in my book. And that's Askernish and I'll have Harris are both in the book and I already in my top favorites. Um, it's worth going out there and spending a couple of nine hundred percent worth trying to figure out how to do that.

And um, yeah, we talked about the ferries a little bit. You just got to be, you just got to roll with the part with a little bit. You got to, you got to.

“That's the only thing that I can say about it.”

Yeah, because like we, like our, our fairy, we were supposed to go back from, uh, from, was that lock boys Dale back into my leg. Yeah, and that ended the ball thrusters were broken on the boat. And so we ended up, they changed it the day before and we ended up going into into week on the island sky. Which turned out to be, I mean, one of the greatest drives I've ever taken in my life. But, you know, I was looking at it. I was like, all right, you know, maybe we can just drive up to, you know,

drive up to Harris and play, I love Harris and then storn away and then take the ferry from storn away over to you. Yeah, you know, over to, um, all up pool, right? Yeah, because all up pool and then, like, I think there's all this stuff that's up in the highlands on the west side of the highlands. That is probably more, like, it's more in the western Isles than it is in the highlands, because it takes so long to get there from adornic or, or,

I agree, I think gear lock, dernas, that stuff, although it's classified as the highlands.

To me, it feels more like part of the western Isles. I agree with you. Like the time that I played dernas and gear lock, I came over on that ferry that you're talking about. And it was just a better way. It was a nice way to kind of get to that place without, because those, those, that corner of Scotland is, is the roads are pretty bad.

“I mean, I don't mind doing it. I think it's fun, but if you're, if you're nervous, driver, you, is, you better hang out when you start going up there,”

because it's, you're talking 50, 60, 70 miles. I'm very, very narrow, narrow, single lane, single track roads. And the only saving grace up there is generally, you can see far enough ahead when you can see when somebody's coming.

And so you can, you know, you can, you'll, you'll almost always have a passing place that you can get into.

And you don't feel trapped like if you're coming over a hill and a big camper van or bus is coming straight out to you. But yeah, that, those places are remote, during the passing gear. I've, I've got them in my, my 19th hole chapter. I love both of them. They, they were two of the courses that when I was doing the final list, I actually wrote chapters for both of those, and just didn't, they didn't quite make it when all my final cut and so I love them. And, but yeah, that, I would, I always sort of tell people to try to combine it. I do what you said.

Like, if you're going to take that trip, go over, go from open or over to, to take the ferry over to play Askernish, drive up to Harris.

Stornaway has a pretty good course up there that people have not played, but I've driven up about past it and it looks fun. And then take that ferry across and then play those places. You're talking about, then come down, maybe around down to, I don't want to, I'm not, yeah, don't want to can borrow, but that's to me is a, it's almost a better, although I love these red drive and you see so much great stuff on these roads. If you're, if you're nervous about the driving, that's a little bit better method to do.

“And then I think there's some stuff in your book that's, you know, there's some stuff on the East Coast, but there's some stuff up that we didn't really cover up in the Highlands or Highlands of Jason that, you know,”

we've talked about it during that's a little bit, but covecy and hope and are to that, I'm ashamed that I haven't been to covecy yet and I'm dying to get there and, you know, lossy mouth right down the road, but yeah, covecy is one of one. Covecy is one of why it's almost like, I almost compare it to the sweetest cove of Scotland in a way, it's just in the way that it's sort of, this can do, is this guy and his wife built his course, Andy is a, he was a golf course contractor builder, but he, they got this land and decided to build his course and,

you can read about it in the book, but the day we went there, it was that was taking our own that trip and we had already played Frasierberg and Colon, and y'all know it didn't work that day, and we were leaving, we were leaving the Colon parking lot and I have to give Jake credit for this, I was tired, because Frasierberg is a hard course and it's hard to walk and, but we were with George Clark, a mutual friend of all of ours and, well, George, where are you off to now and, and Jake said, well, we're going to go play Covecy and I said, I don't know Jake, he said, "Dad, we've got to do it, I'll give him credit." He said, "I've looked at these pictures, just you've got to do it."

And it was about another 45, 50 minute drive. Yeah, and so we get there at 7 o'clock, Angela, who had a little trailer out there, she'd saw us drive up and, and I tell the story in the book, but, you know, she said, "You've got time, nobody's out, you'll be around in an hour and ten minutes." And she goes, "But you've got to eat," you know, and y'all know how it is over there. Eight thirties like the last service, you know. She got to eat, you've got to eat, I'll book you something, and lost him out.

So she booked our dinner while we were out playing, and we got Covecy on this, the golden hour, the greatest golden hour I've ever seen, bar none. And I'll put this up against stuff I've seen. Sweetness Cove, do an aridimacker hand.

“Yeah, it's just, it was just, like, I look back at the pictures now, honestly, and they do not look real.”

They, they look like they're fake, and the place, they, Andy did such a wonderful job fitting it into this hidden. It's just, you've got to, y'all, both of y'all got to go, but, you sort of, you drive down this sort of narrow lane, single road, down through doors, you can't see anything.

And it's right on the edge of the water, and it's just, people that go there dearly love it.

I mean, they, Andy, they came, they've been so great supporting the book. He actually came to one of my book signings and got to talk to him for a while, and they're just doing. People are finding out about it, and it's, you know, it's, it's, I don't know what it is now, 25 pounds, you know, which is nothing. And it's just, it's just stunning, I mean, whole after, oh, it's got, it's got a couple of holes like Colin, you're hitting over a, like the 13th of Colin, we're hitting over the rock. There's, there's one like that.

“It's only other place I've seen with that kind of whole, well, I guess I don't know, maybe has one similar to it, but that's what it is, and it's just, it's just a great little golf course, and it's pure fun.”

The pro at Nayer and who y'all might, might know Michael McCallan loves it, and he goes and plays there all the time. I mean, Michael will text me, like that's what he does for fun, as he goes, he's the pro at Nayer and he goes and plays cobsy. So think about that, I mean, and he, and so they're just coming up, and they're coming up out of nowhere. Hope, and you mentioned, I love hope, and did you get to there on this trip or not?

No, no, and it's like, I want to go play, I've never done Fraserborough, I've never done Lassie mouth, and then I want to go cobsy,

Hopeman, up to Dernas, and you know, go play Ray and Wick, and those, just got to the side. Well, Hopeman is, I highly recommend Hopeman, very friendly, 18th of course. Wonderful, the back nine is the best, I mean, I would put the back nine well over the front, but there's so many great holds on the back nine.

“I think it's 40, 50 pound range, and people are welcome you there.”

It's got one of the greatest par threes called the pre-shock, I hope I pronounced that right. It's the 12th and you're hitting down straight down to this over this gorse covered hillside to this green, it's down by the ocean.

I've sent you some photos of it, it's just, you've probably seen it, it's just, it's a one off kind of whole, I've never seen another one quite like it.

And to me, I'll play a corsus for one hoe, I don't know how y'all are, but if it's something that good, and I'm not saying that Hopeman is only one hoe because the corsus is really good, I love it. But it's, that's the hoe that you would put up against any, I don't any list in the world, you know. What, all right, let's land this plane a little bit, we, I did want to ask you about the night in the book that you're playing the, playing the old course, and, you know, it's, it's, it's pitch black, it's basically completely dark when you're, when you're finishing up and just pretty spiritually evening.

It was, you know, I had not been there, I had not played it in 20 years, I've played it a lot when I was younger, and I love the old, I mean the old, I always say it's in a class, you can't really rank the old course to me, it just sort of. I, maybe that's a cop out, but I always, when people ask me to rank courses, I just say I'm not ranking the old course because I just feel like it's something that's on its own, we got around, we were, we were the, I forget what they call these times, they call them, not evening times, but.

You know, you how they call stuff twilight golf and you, you're not guaranteed to finish, we were, we were the last group that finished, and you know, I really wanted to finish because Jake was there and he was having so much fun, I mean, this just tells you everything about Jake, he was playing with Persimmons and just playing great, and the ball was rolling up, and like it only does at the old course, and we were having so much fun, we got paired up with. A guy from Tidalist that you know, trying or for, or was it cal, anyway, randomly got paired up and we had some great caddies and it was just, we all had some good holes, we had some birdies, but I was really.

“As we got around to like the 14th and we remember walking past Hellbunker and I'm like we're not going to finish, there's just no way we're going to finish, it was just, it was, it was twilight at that point.”

In fact, the guy David that was with us, who are hosted us, he quit playing him, he said, look, I want you guys to finish, I'm not going to play anymore, which was a wonderful gesture. And when we came up to 18th that we literally, it was just lit by the town lights, I mean, it was the light coming across from the old and from the houses down the right side, but we finished and it was completely dark when we, when we got done and they had. I couldn't believe they did this, I was right about it in the book, but they had made this flag of destroying that Jordan had done when he was nine years old and they put it on the 18th hole at the oak horse.

And it really just, I had, I had to run and catch our friend in the car park and tell him how much I appreciated it and, you know, there's really, you guys have played there a good bit, I mean, there's just, it's again it's sort of to play it and it was a, and the other thing really probably the reason we were able to finish was it was a very clear day. We had some residual light up until the very end there, but you know it's funny, you can play that 18th hole in the dark, I mean, there's enough light.

You know, enough light coming around, but we were the last group to finish and I'm so glad we did it, we, it was just wonderful and Jake still talks about it and you know, I just, I'm so thankful to the, the links trust for really helping us do that because, you know, it's, as you all know, it's just hard to get on and you know, so David, David Connor, I mean, we're indebted to him for helping us. Yeah.

But like, you know, Torres saw a season two, it's like he basically arranged that.

What a nice man, you know, just a good, just a good man and a credit to golf in Scotland.

“So, well, he told me, and I think I've got this in the book.”

He said, you know, it made me realize how special this place is where I work and how much it means to people around the world. And he said it just really hit me that, you know, that some kid in Alabama was dreaming about playing the old course when he was nine years old and I just, I don't know, I just, they, they have. Even when they, as long as they've got people like that, taking care of the place, they're going to be fine. And, you know, I like the way they're doing the ballots and stuff now, some people don't like it.

It's fine as far as I'm concerned. I mean, it's fair, you know. But, yeah, it's, it had been 20 years and it was really, I got out there and I'm like, man, this is just so much fun. It's such a fun course to play.

And it is, and the funny thing is, it's one that, you know, I'm a 15 handicapped and I've never felt scared to play the old course with that's the right word.

It's playable, you know what I mean? It's playable for people. So, Jim and fortunately, I've got to drop great chat with you. I'm going to let you guys keep going because I know you guys could go for probably another hour if not. So, but thank you. Always great talking to you, my friend. Yeah, good to see you. So, I do a British radio. It's open championship weeks.

Yeah, I have a reason to swing in. What, I, a couple of quick hitters for you. I think you have your top 100 holes list in Scotland. How much turnover is there on that after each trip? Well, I do. I'm glad you asked that. I do keep up with it.

And there's a little bit. And what I found is there's a lot of, like whole shift around. I've moved the six, it's just going up to second now.

“I think I had it fourth or fifth before. I can't remember, but I've moved it up to second.”

I've added the 12th and 15th, the Widing Bay in there, which I just think are all world Scottish brilliant golf holes. So it does. I mean, if I, if I find one that I really sort of moved by or like this is really great, then I'll, I'll spend a little bit more time on it when I'm there and maybe take a few more photos and try to understand the whole a little bit better. And then I'll, so I do, I do keep it updated and I, it does usually when I play a new, like, meal port. I added a hole for meal port after I played there. I believe the 11th and, you know, so it does.

It does change and gets updated and, you know, you find things that are a little bit better and that you like a little bit better. But also it just, what's within there change is like I just, I've really just become such a fan of the six that she's just can now and it just keeps moving up. And I know you said you're going to persevere next, but anywhere that you haven't played that you're, that's just screaming at you. That's pulling it, you know, it's like. The only one that I feel like I, for me that I've just got to get to is,

Walsai, if I'm pronouncing that right up in Shetland, I've really wanted to play that and I've just never, it's such a long.

“I think it's a nine hour ferry trip from Aberdeen or somewhere to get it up there.”

I don't know if I'll be able to do that one, I would love, that's, that's one that I've had on my list. There's one or two, that that's probably the biggest one. I mean, I've not played, there's a course on, I'll have call that I've not played.

you've got to time it because the ferry only goes on Tuesday and Thursday or something. So you've got to go, it's not, it's not just to go out there and back kind of thing, but there's a couple like little ones on the island that I still haven't gotten. But I've been pretty much everywhere.

It's just now finding places that I really have never, have never heard about, you know, one way or another

and just seeing what I find. But that one up in Shetland, I've always wanted to do and I've heard from people that it's a really good golf course. Really good links, course.

“Are you, are you ever pulled into say England or Ireland or that sort of thing or, or is Scotland?”

Scotland, the final frontier for you and there's just something that keeps pulling you back with the people. I think it's, it's probably the latter. I just can't give it up and I love it and I've kind of made it my life's work, if you will, for writing. But I am thinking about, you know, I've played Bergdale and lift them and I played St. George's Hill one year, which was just incredible.

I happened to be timed it when I was going to plan to London. And I, yeah, I mean, I've played, I played all the courses in Ireland and they're great. I did take one trip and it really a long trip and played almost everywhere with my dad there about, it's been about 15 years ago now. So I've done that. I do want to, I'm thinking about doing a little bit more in England just because England has so many great golf courses.

Really places that I need to play. But you know, Stephen Proctor, who I do the podcast with, that you guys so generously sponsor force is writing a biography of Bernard Darwin. And he's going to be over there in next April and he's going to be playing all of Darwin's courses like Abu Dhabi and Wales and walking in brand-caster and all these places that, you know, that Darwin loved. And I'm thinking about at least joining Stephen for two or three days and playing a couple of those places. I feel like I, I do feel like I've missed some stuff in England.

When you look at the courses in England, you see a lot of really really good stuff and, and Wales too.

I mean, some of the stuff in Wales. I mean, the links in the sky, I've always wanted to play.

We're all Saint David's of Harlic, I've always wanted to play. Abu Dhabi's, you know, my list for ever. So if I, I'm made try to go to Abu Dhabi next year and then work in a couple of days.

“I think you see what to do with Liverpool or, you know, go over for B or Wallace.”

Yeah, but, but really, I just, I love being in Scotland and I just, I don't see myself changing much from that. I don't know if I should. I guess I, I current open rota rankings. Do you have a strong opinion on, you know, like this, it's your favorite tournament. It's open week. This whole, this portal come out after the fact, but do you have a very definitive open rota, you know, kind of rankings list. Yeah, I, I do. I think, I, I wanted to treat a little bit. I think Mirfield and the O course are tied at the top.

I think the O course is my favorite place where the open's played. I think Mirfield is probably one of the greatest golf courses in the world as far as a test for players. It's just brilliant. And so I, those two would be at the top. I hope the RNA goes back. Carnasty, I would have second. I think Carnasty is a fantastic open course. I love it. I think it's just every time they have it there, it's just, you're on your edge of your seat watching, it's great.

“This one might surprise you a little bit. I, my third one, if you, if you let me have the code number one, would be lithium. I think lithium is vastly, vastly underrated.”

I'm with it. It's such a great golf course. I've played it a couple times. I love it. It's just the strategy is just over the top.

I hope they go back. I know there's always their challenges, but they're going back.

They're going back. Oh, that's right, they did mention it. They did finally say they would. I mean, you've been hearing for the last years. Oh, the infrastructure is too much. Can't do it. I mean, if they can have the opening train, truly, they can have it in lithium. I mean, then I would probably go to turnberry and train. I, you know, I haven't played turnberry since the changes have been made. I've played it a couple of times. You'll back before and I loved it. I thought it was great. And you, of course, some of the greatest opens of all time. I've got a story in the book about the 2009 open. It's one of my favorites. I've ever done.

So turnberry and train would be there, then I'd go to Berkdale, probably who we like and I'm just trying to figure out, I don't, I don't like some of the changes they made to who we like for the open. I've got to be fair about it.

It was wet. It was wet and that's, you know, when it's wet, it just takes all the fun out of it.

That's of course that needs the conditions to cooperate. It's so brilliant when it's dry and firm and fast. The strategy really comes out of it, but yeah, I agree. And then I would have St. George's last, which is probably not fair, but it's the only one of these that I have not ever played. And it looks, I would probably love it if I went there. So it's just kind of default that I like these other ones better and it kind of wants up at the end. I, well, I left out port rush that I forgot, I always forget port rush.

“The port rush would be up in the turnberry train range for me. I think it's a solid place.”

I wish, I wish they would have the open at Roll County down. I don't know how you feel about it, but I never think.

Okay, well, you would have a fit if you went there. It's just everything that we love about golf on that scale on a scale that could actually. They could actually have the open there. I think they had the seniors open there. Well, a long time ago when it may have been the last time Nicholas ever played in it. And so I thought they were kind of testing it out for the open, but they still, I would love that. I think that would be a great place to have it. I know they've talked about port barnic. They've talked about, you know, I'm for, I'm for adding, if you know, I'm all for trying that if they want to, but I do think it needs to go back to your field. I mean, your field's just yeah.

The one there, you know, when Nicholas and one, I could watch that kind of golf, not stop. I mean, I just the ball just rolling ever ever and you just every shot is life or death on the green and so yeah.

But that's kind of my ranking. Okay. I'm largely aligned with you. And it's, yeah, it's no slight to port rush or.

We're also in Georgia because I know they're brilliant golf courses and I just don't think that it brings out what I want to see out of the pros like from it. It's more aerial than it is on the ground.

“Grand conditions have to cooperate for it to be on the ground at a birthday or late, but this week we're going to see it, right?”

All right, most cherished piece of feedback you've gotten on the book. Well, when I was, when I did the book launch in denacity, some of the members, some of the things they said to me was very moving. I must have had 15 or 20 people that came up to me and said, thank you for everything you've written about this place. Thank you for doing this book. I've read, I've read part of it and then the read to the library part. It's just captures everything that's special about this place. I mean, it's really kind of emotional hearing that from them. And then you know, I got.

I've been able to give me an honorary life membership and from the story in the book, which I thought was as far as I'm concerned was one of the best honors I've ever had and golf. And then I've gotten so many messages trying I love getting these emails and DMs from people and it makes the writing worthwhile, but you know, mutual friend of ours. I don't name him, but he's well connected in the golf industry. He sent me a long message one night and he said, you know, I've had this book. He said, I've been, I'm a paraphrase. What he said, he said, I've just been trying to find a quiet time when I won't be distracted.

And I want it. I don't want it to end. I will read a chapter and think about when I'm going to have, when can I go back and read it again. He said, it's just, he said, it's one of the best things you've written and he said, you know, it makes me want to go to all these places when I, when I get these messages from people that, and I get, I get them all the time from people that are at the naivety or shishkin or Cory. And they'll send me a picture of the book while they're out there playing and they might have taken it with them. That means is a world to me.

I mean, I, you know, I, you know, this isn't going to make the New York Times best sell or list because we're not, you know, back nine presses and set up on that like that. But, you know, it's, it's getting to the people that want to read it and the people that love this kind of golf like yourself, you know, you and I are very much alike.

“You know, we knew that from the first time we met at Sweden's Co. I think we talked for 10 minutes and, you know, gosh, we liked the exact same exact same thing.”

You know, and, but it, when I hear from people that have gone to these places and how much they loved it. That means everything to me because, you know, like we said, a lot of these places like Aberpool. If they need visitors and so when I hear from, I've heard from four or five people that have gone by over this year.

And so I love that. If I've been able to help a little bit, that's the reward from the writing and, you know, getting people to, experience these places in the way that I, that I write about them in the book, which is, it's the fun of these kind of trips. And I think it's kind of what we've been kind of the theme of this whole podcast. It's a little bit different kind of trip than maybe a traditional one.

But it's, you're going to, you're going to be rewarded with some memories that you just, that are, that are, that are, that you'll never forget.

“Yeah, no, I think it's, it's, like, I love the table of contents in the book because it's such a, it sums up that notion of wandering, right?”

Not all wander, not all who wander or lost. And I think that the book feels like a really good, just wander and great surprises and, you know, it's both a wander geographically around Scotland, but also a wander from a time perspective through 35 years of your life of, you know, engulf and wandering through different phases of your life and different, different emotions and different people along the way and, you know, all of that adding up to something that's much larger than itself.

And, and Jim, I can say too, like, our, I mean, you've changed my life in a pretty drastic way.

“Yeah, just, I think, many of my favorite memories come from either playing places with you or people I've met because of you or through you who are now the, you know, cherished friends or even, you know, us planning out this tour sauce season.”

It's like, I'm, I'm hopeful that the, that the tail on this between your book and, you know, our videos is going to, you know, be quite a long one because it's, so, I mean, trying to think about people's people like Greg McCray and you and McKinnon, I mean, think about these people that we've met to golf and there's two of the nicest gentlemen, I mean, I, you couldn't find two nice for people and on the planet, I mean, Greg will do anything for you. I mean, I'm going back over to play with Greg on the air and team and these matches that Link's diary is having and he's just become a great friend and it's all through golf and,

you know, I remember when we were doing that when Revelation comes trip, I dropped you off at the ferry, it brought it. And, you know, it was kind of an emotional, I mean, I could tell how much you had loved going to these places and it was very emotional moment there when, you know,

“and I think I said, I hope we can do this again sometime and, you know, I hope you can help carry on the, the love of these kind of places like Korean shisken and”

the narrative and so I always, you know, when you text to me that you were going over early for your tour sauce and the places you were going, I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what I would do.

And, you know, I can't wait to go to the Grand Telly and, and you're going to have to give your, tell your man, I'm coming so that can take care of me. You know, I love that part of it just as much fun in the hotel that, you know, we didn't mention the core hotel which you and I both dearly love and, you know, places like that are half the fun. I mean, you think about when we were doing that film and we would sit in the core at night and just spend three hours at dinner and, I mean, there's really nothing better in life than that as far as,

yeah, having fun and traveling and stuff. So, you know, the book, I hope, get to that across to people. I mean, it's, we're still trying to get it out there. You know, you can get it. It's, it's in the, we bookshop and core, which I think you guys just visited recently and it's in the Dunnaverty shop. You can get it from back nine pressed dot com back back the number nine pressed dot com. I have to get that in there. And it's on, you can get it on Amazon and we'll get that in the, in the show notes as well and everything, but yeah, we got to get you in the, we got to get you in the bookstore and St Andrews and the, you know, the, like some of those, you know, legendary kind of golf bookstore's right.

We need to and I don't know why, as, as I, you and I were talking off air. I mean, there, we do have a UK distributor now back nine does. So the book can, you can get it. I mean, Tony at the, we bookshop, I ordered 20 or 25 copies, which I'm going to sign for, he sold some of them, but I'm going to sign the rest in a couple of weeks when I'm over there. And so you can get it, but it needs to be in toppings and St Andrews, it needs to be in. Open and waterstones and it needs to be in, and there's so many nice little independent book shops in Scotland. I mean, and for that matter, it needs to be in the square books in Oxford, Mississippi and, you know, you know, you think that something like that, you know, because it's, that's the kind of, that's the kind of book it is. I mean, people, I think Schuskin has had 30 copies and they sold every one of them.

Yep. You know, so I think getting it out in the world, yeah, kind of like, oh, it's, it's one that you would just pick up on the shelf and be, oh, you know what, like that looks, it looks interesting. Let me dive in here. And it's like, it's like a portal into a separate universe, almost. Well, part of it, something I'm really happy about, like, when you see it sitting in like that, she's can shop or into an empty, and I'm obviously biased because I wrote the book.

But it's what you look at, you know, man, that looks, that cover looks interesting, you know, what is that? And we wanted it. We kind of, the whole thing was kind of designed around sort of a retro.

20s and 30s feel to it with these old postcards and photographs and the cover, which is up, which is one of these colorized postcards of shiskin from the 20s. And so I'm so happy with that, it's one of the things when you see it, you just, you pick it up and once you, like you said, you see that table of contents, y'all, this looks interesting. And so we're still early days. I'm, I'm hopeful, you know, we'll, we'll submit it for a couple of awards and see what happens and to keep trying to get it out there. And, you know, I'll keep posting, I think everybody that, you know, follows me on Twitter and Instagram that's been supportive of it. You know, Greg is through Aaron golf and William at Aberfall. I mean, they've done so much to kind of promote it. And, you know, that's really, that's, that's been a huge help.

And it's so still keep doing that. And you guys, of course, has been great to me. And, you know, just, that whole time you're own the trip, I almost felt like I was there with y'all, because I just, I was so, like, so invested in how much, I mean, I knew in my heart that you'd love writing by, and I knew in my heart that they'd love to now, but you never know until people get there. So you're always, you know, you, you probably, you probably experience this.

When you recommend something pretty strongly, I mean, you're putting a bit of yourself totally.

“I don't know a lot. You know what I mean? So you're kind of, you're kind of putting yourself in a position of, okay, I've sort of guaranteed this, what if they don't like it?”

So yeah, when I, when I started getting the text messages and, you know, I went by when I was over in April, I took Greg, let's go by and look at the house in Widing Bay where they're going to be staying.

And I just wanted to see kind of what the view was going to, but y'all had a great view there, and, or it was, it was Lamla, was it Widing Bay or Lamla?

Lamla, Lamla, yeah, yeah. So, but yeah, I've, you guys have been great, and I can't wait to see this tour sauce when it comes out, you know, I just, it's all the places I love and I do really hope that you and I get to do it one more time over there. You know, if not on air and at the narrowly somewhere, we, we cross again and I'm sure we will, but it's been a, it's been a pleasure and I'm like you, some of the, the memories of that trip and that first, that trip with the film was done. And I still get the so many messages about that film and people have come to the book through the film and it's just one of the best things that came out of that, and it had such a great understanding of what that book was about.

“And so it's still to this day up, I get messages about it. So, I, you know, I think it's been since that came out since I was on with you guys, and I just, you know, thank you for supporting the book and supporting my riding and.”

He just really means a lot to me. Well, I think the, um, just going back to your point about recommendations, like it's one thing to recommend a restaurant that's down the street or addition. The day or two, to get there and everything, I think like even me, like I was on, I was on Askernish when we went, when the guys went to.

“I got there to put my thumb on the scale or to guide them through this place. And I think there's something even more powerful when somebody gets, you know, like understands the.”

A place or an experience when you're not there, it speaks for itself, and I think that that's where like, you know, those guys text me after the fact and I mean shit, I plan this whole trip, you know, a whole trip is basically a. Continuing to pull on the threads that are in this book, both literally and figuratively, and I think that. Those experiences resonating with the guys and then reaching out to you is just an affirmation of, you know, what you're about.

And then I was thinking, you know, traditionally, and I've been a, I've been a follower of you guys from the beginning, I've listened to almost every podcast.

“Traditionally, this isn't been saw, this has not been saw this type of thing, I mean, unfairness, I mean totally.”

So I was thinking, I was thinking, he's not going to, he's not going to like the narrative, and then to get this message from him that this is one of the best, I think it said this is one of the best rounds of golf from my life or something like that.

And, you know, they sent me a photo from the 11th, where the bench Jordan's bench is and then I heard from Ben and Cody, who were filming, they weren't even playing.

And, you know, and your brother and Randy, you know, both sent me just this, this place is so great, thank you for pushing it on us, thank you for, you know, helping us, you know, meet people here.

“And so that is, I think I texted you that night after everything I said, I said, my life's work has not been in vain.”

Yeah, that was exactly it.

So yeah, but man, thank you so much for doing this, yeah. Well, yeah, with that, everybody go by, go by Jim's book, and yeah, your regular contributor in Link's diary and go listen to your podcast with you and Stephen as well, I think it's, yeah, it's just everything golf's about, I think, is you personify so thanks Jim. Thanks, cheers my friend.