Rob Scheer on Foster Care, Family, and Breaking the Cycle

- True story media. - Hello, it's Andrea and today we are sharing a conversation with Rob Shier. Rob is the founder and CEO of Comfort Cases,

“a non-profit that provides backpacks filled with essential items”

to children entering foster care. This non-profit was inspired by Rob's own experiences with foster care as a child and leader as a parent. Rob and his husband race adopted five children from foster care and later founded Comfort Cases

to help provide dignity and support to children entering the system. Since then, the organization has distributed more

than a quarter million cases to youth

in foster care across the US and UK. Rob is the author of the memoir of Forever Family, fostering change one tile at a time, a TEDx speaker and a national advocate for foster care reform.

We are so grateful to Rob and all of the other guests we've spoken to recently who have shared their perspectives on these complex systems and how we can make them work better for the children that they're meant to serve.

We are learning a lot in real time over here and if you have ideas that you'd like to share, perspectives you think we're missing or folks you think we should talk to,

“please do hit us up at [email protected].”

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We'll be right back with my conversation with Rob Shier. Naturally, on the out-of-an-rast event with her ways of tango and rast. Kids eat free! Now, we're going to get to know our restaurant,

and our restaurant, and our kids, a kid's box, with a hand-fledged, famous, famous, and a surprise. On all the online events, infos, hotel names and restaurants, D.E.

"Pour Shmack, top-best of these, so-called... "Of course, on the out-of-an-rast event of her ways of tango and rast. "Broady and our super-summer event, "Lack-a-re-curry-bossed with pommes for no $7.99. "You're right, only $7.99.

"There, low-end-sign-the-pouser. "I'm not intending the out-of-an-rast event. "Info-Satai-Nama on the out-of-sign-the-E." "Well, hi, Rob.

“"Could you just introduce yourself to our listeners?”

"Tell us who you are in what you do?" "Yeah, my name is Rob Shmack, and I have the greatest job in the world. I'm a dad. I'm a dad. "You know, Andrea, most people when they're growing up,

they think about things like being doctors, while you're social workers, I got a kid who, when I remember when he thought he's going to be on the NBA. But for me, I grew up only wanted to be a dad. "So, when people ask me what do I do,

"I think my number one goal is to make tomorrow better "than it is today for our kids." - You do some other things as well, though. - Yeah. - You are your an author.

You are the founder of non-profit. - Yeah. - And yes. - We will get into all of that. We have been having these very far-reaching conversations

on the show about child welfare. And really just how to handle this problem of when children are not safe and cared for in their homes and how to make those decisions, what the best ways to deal with those issues are.

And these are unbelievably complex problems societally very nuanced. And so we really appreciate talking to people who have lived it and you have an especially helpful perspective because you've lived it.

Your children have lived it. A lot of the people that you work with have lived it. And so I'm just so excited to talk to you. And I wonder if you could just start by telling us about your own history,

which you wrote about so beautifully in your book.

And how, you know, we always like to ask people

who are survivors of abuse, which you are. What do you wish had happened? - First of all, thank you so much again for this platform and giving so many people a voice that so many times we don't feel that we have.

But I also want people to understand is that so many times we're making decision based on kids that people are making it based on a file. People are making it based on what they heard and their destroying families.

First of all, let's all start with understanding that. But when it comes to abuse and removing a child for me, my story is different, Andrea. My story is different, but it's like some of my kids. I'm the youngest to 10 kids.

Foster care was already in my vocabulary as a little boy

had already started falling to the wayside. In society, we stick the F word in front of kids. And we automatically know where they're heading. And they're heading less than our other kids. And that's the way my brothers and sisters were going.

That's the way they expected me to go. That's the way we expect one child every two minutes, 700 a day to go less than. What did I want? I wish somebody would have just when they did rescue me,

would have stayed with me and made sure that I aged out as an adult with a net. I aged out at 18 Andrea and I was handed a trash bag as a senior in high school and became homeless. So you explained to me what system that we have

in the United States it has up to day in 2026. We still allow kids to aid out of a system that we supposedly protect them and take care of them and let them become homeless. Don't give them any net.

Don't give them any financial stuff. Nothing. I don't think you're listeners in society realize how bad it is for kids in the system. And if we could kind of go back even before that

to where you are growing up in a house where there's abuse, where there's neglect, where you are really not with parents who are providing a safe and loving home.

“And I think one of the things I always come back to as a core value”

of myself and of the show is that I believe that children deserve to be safe and loved in their homes. And I think that can look like a lot of different things as you have experienced. So for you, when you are in that situation,

you're born to parents that for probably their own very complicated reasons.

And I think I always want to talk about these things,

just grounded in everyone's humanities, right? And everyone's humanity. So for their own complicated reasons, your parents were not safe parents. And so can you talk us through a little bit about how you

got to a better situation, which then ended up not being as permanent. But it did provide, you know, it sounds like some long-term support. So you had a situation where there was a neighbor, talk us through that sort of transition. - Of course, I write so vividly about it.

And by the way, foster care, the definition of foster care is when children do not live with their family of origin. And back in the '80s and the '70s, it wasn't uncommon for a kid to come into the system and go to neighbors and people got knocked on the doors

to say, hey, can you take that neighbor kid? It wasn't uncommon, especially in the south where, you know, I lived in that rural area considered rural area. But for me, as I said, my parents were not the parents it should have had 10 kids, but I want people to understand.

My parents were not a product of their environment. They were not a product of all that crap that people wanted lay on them. My parents were a product of choices. My mother chose to be married six times.

My mother chose to bring to kid 10 kids in this world. My mother chose to neglect us. Abuse us, allow men to come into the house and rape my sisters and rape me and my brothers. My mother allowed that from the choices that she made.

So, for me, I went to a neighbor. I went to a neighbor who treated me as I was less than clean their house, watch their kids.

They never took a picture of me.

They never let me have a birthday party.

“They never took me to camp, to any that, but guess what?”

They fed me. And they put a roof on my head. And for all of your listeners, most of you would say, be grateful. Well, let me tell you something, I'm a kid.

And I deserve to have the same thing my neighbors had, which was birthday parties and got to go to camp and had people don't over them in their graduation. Nobody clapped for me when I crossed that stage. Okay, so those are all the things that the system had done

for me to create this. They did nothing. They took me from one hell to another hell. And there were many nights when I was with those people that those strangers, I used to sit at night's injury

and I would cry and I would cry because I wanted to feel the cigarette of my father so bad. Because, by the way, even though he put those cigarettes out on me in his 59, I still see those scars, at least he was there. Well, and you know, something that we've talked about a lot

is that even when children are abused, they still love and are attached to their parents most of the time. And that is such a hard thing.

“Because I think what we always want to acknowledge, right?”

And you use the term, you know, sort of the destruction of families

and I think like we always want to acknowledge like,

I definitely think there are circumstances where children need to be taken out of the home high think that a child's right to be safe and loved supersedes any rights that a parent should have. I do not think children are the property of their parents, right?

And yet we also recognize that that's necessarily going to be traumatic as well.

how do we put the children really at the center of that conversation?

And so you sort of had a little bit of maybe not quite out of the frying pan into the fire, but like out of the frying pan into like an adjacent frying pan.

“If you can look back, what would an ideal intervention have looked like?”

I'm sure this is something you've thought about a lot. What would child Rob have on it? For me, I'm going to tell you there should have been no one ever allowed my parents to have any kids in their home. Simple as that.

From the moment that CPS started looking into our family and seeing the incess that was going on in the family, it was a nightmare. And as a man now looking back, those even those 12 years that I was in that, my brothers and sisters were in their 20s and had to experience it all that time.

For me, I just had experience that health for 12 years. But I want people to also understand is that if there is abuse in any situation, we do not stand and say, "Oh, let's think about it."

“I would say the one time I'll never forget this.”

I was think I was about 10 years old. I had marks on me as usual.

And I'll never forget this neighbor saying,

"Well, Robert Terry, what did you do?" Yeah. And I mean, this is in the 70s, right? So this is a very different moment in our understanding of abuse and neglect. And what is and is not okay in terms of corporal punishment or discipline. Like, I think something that I always want people to appreciate is.

And then I have really come to appreciate. I've looked back on these timelines of the battered child syndrome being in the very late 60s. And some of these reforms that capped on these kind of mandatory reporting laws, really only coming about in the 70s, and that our conception of there are things that parents should not do to their children and their situations where we should intervene and get the kids out,

is very new, a very new.

“And you know, and I think in some ways then it's sort of not maybe surprising that we don't have”

it all figured out yet. But I wonder like being so close and having so many touch points with this system. Do you think that we've made meaningful progress since then, as imperfect as it is? I'm sorry. This is so, wow. I have people asked me this all the time and they want me to sit there and stand on the sideline and say, oh, look at all the much we've done. Oh, I don't. I mean, I want your honest answer. Yeah. No, I get it.

All right. Yeah. I mean, I don't get the phone calls to do certain things because I'm not a yes person. And I'm not a person. It's going to sit here and blow smoke up your ass. We are failing every single day with our children in child welfare, every single day, every single day that we continue to allow kids to enter a system that is not supporting them, that we continue to muddy the water with abuse cases and neglect cases. And by the way, there are

two different things. Two different things. We are doing a disservice to these kids. I'm sorry to say it. We're doing more damage and leaving the kids in their homes from the records that we're seeing in the statistics that we're seeing. We got into better Andrea. So you pointed to a couple of things there. There's a lot of complexity in the data around these things, right? Because I remember

first hearing, and you know, is then these conversations with Dr. Jessica Price, who I think you

may know as well. And so she's an abolitionist in Florida. Her book is brilliant. And she's, we had a great conversation because this was a sort of funny way of meeting. When I was covering the Kualsky case, Court TV, they put me on with Dr. Price as sort of a, I think they meant us to be a point counterpoint. And I was like, oh no, no, this is not someone that I disagree with. And so I invited her on on the show. And you know, when she first told me this, the statistics of like 76% of

removals are happening because of neglect. And so I think there is a, you know, and we've had abolitionists on the show. And again, I just, I love having these conversations because I think the more we can tease these out, the better we'll go forward. And it's so, this isn't arena where the data can be notoriously difficult to parse. Because we've seen a lot of cases. And we've talked to a lot of survivors. I'm sure you've seen this as well. But who are sent back and sent back

and sent back. And a lot of parents who are, it is abuse of cases. And you know, the, the cases we focus on the show, we have this somewhat narrow focus in this whole ecosystem, which is that we are talking about cases that involve the medical systems. So these are either, you know, a bunch of my proxy cases, which we talked about a lot, which almost no hope of getting a accountability and separation in those cases. And then we've talked a lot about abuse of head trauma, right?

So we're talking about parents whose abuse has put their children in the hospital and is life threatening. And so many of those people have gotten their kids back and not been held criminally accountable. So yeah, help me understand kind of these other stories that you're seeing. Again, you're still looking at a very large number of kids coming in the system because of abuse.

shaking baby syndrome and three broken ribs. By the way, he was considered a boomerang kid. A

boomerang kid is when a mother abuses a kid. The social worker takes it. And she does all of her classes. She did freaking four months of parenting classes. They give the kid back what is she do? She ends up breaking three of the kids' ribs and then taking a razor blade and carving initials and the her boyfriend's initials in the baby. We're seeing those cases all the time injury that we have to address. So yes, those cases are happening. But I am telling you that the

majority of the time that we're having and wasting in child welfare where we could be working on those cases, which we need to stop sending those kids back. We're focused on the wrong thing, which is those kids of neglect, which by the way, let's also look at some statistics. Those kids of neglect, you and I both know that half of those kids are going to turn into abuse cases. Nobody wants to talk about that. So what I'm saying is that we've got to start focusing on where

we need to truly correct the system, which is protecting the kids who are truly being abused within the system, protecting the kids who are coming in the system because of the hands of a parent. And then allowing those parents to get a slap on the wrist, give the kid back and the kid

“gets abused again. It's a very difficult balance. And I think where I come down, which is so”

interesting and talking to people who are especially like talk to people who are in the abolitionist space where I do not consider myself a child welfare abolitionist. But I am sort of like I don't spend a lot of time defending the system that we have because it's also failed my family and failed so many other survivors that I know. And so it's like sort of, well, if it's not working for either thing, then it's time to revisit. But before we kind of get into that, one of the things

that like, I really wanted to ground this in human stories, in addition to sort of looking at

these big picture things. I always like to ask people because you are very resilient and I think

a lot of people would consider you a successful person and you are able to go on and have a partner and a family and a life. And what do you think helped that? And what are the things that like, especially, you know, you right, right really movingly in your book about a couple of either like older friends or family friends who became kind of parental figures. And I always like to talk about those things because we recognize that there are so many situations that are happening right

now today where people are going to have children in their lives who don't have an ideal home life. And so many survivors have told me these stories about like that one teacher, that one person,

“and like I think people kind of routinely underestimate what a difference that can make.”

One act of kindness that can truly change. I'm going to tell you a story, Andrea, that it's not in my book and I don't know if you've been able to find it in all the social

media. But in 2019 my life was amazing. I have four incredible kids at that time. I have an amazing

husband who for 21 years I have bass in the love of my husband. But I didn't think I was missing anything until I walked into a high school. And a young boy walked up to me and he had asked me if I could sign his book. And I said of course, you know, what is your name? And he said his name was Alex. And I said Alex, so much you tell me something about yourself. You know, because Andrew, you and I know we all have a story and he said, I don't have anything. And I was like, Alex,

we all have a story and he's like, no, he's like my story is like yours. He's like I've been in foster care since I was five. I've been in 11 homes six schools. I am 18 years old and I'm getting ready to age out and it would be homeless like you. Andrea, I looked at this young boy and I saw myself. I saw myself. I saw this green eyed boy standing there with no hope. I saw this boy who everybody had given up on him. Nobody had believed in him. And I don't know how why this hit me.

And I said to him, I handed in my business card and I said, Alex, it doesn't have to go this way. And he's like, no, Mr. Shear, I fall into the cracks of child welfare. I looked over the principal and she had a tear going down her eyes. She said, Mr. Shear, Alex has a 3.6 and we don't know what to do.

“I remember I looked at that principal and I said, please have him call me. I said, Alex, I got”

to go give another talk. But I want you to call me. We're going to figure this out. I went home that night. I told the reason the kids about guys, I met this kid. He's in foster care. He's 18 years old. I just like this just to spark about this boy. And I remember my son, McCye, was like, dad, if he calls invite him to our house for dinner and sure enough, he called me the next day and I had invited him to our house for dinner. I picked him up on that Saturday. I brought him back.

The reason I decided to go out to dinner with the kids and we were sitting in a Mexican restaurant. We eat at all the time in our little town that we live in and my daughter and my sons were

you can order anything off the menus and my dad's don't care. And he was like, I can order anything.

And he's like, I'm getting the shrimp fajitas and if I don't need them all, I never get in trouble.

“At that moment, my daughter looked at this young boy and she said, Alex, have you been to guapo?”

That young boy looked at my kids and said, I don't remember the last time somebody took me to a restaurant. Now mind you, my kids came from foster care. They arrived in my home and under the age of four, they didn't know what it was like not to eat at a restaurant. But I will tell you as a father, I did my job because I saw the empathy flow out of my kids eyes as we ate there, went to David busters. We dropped this kid off at his foster parents house. I get in the car and I'm just like,

emotionally, I'm everywhere. And I am thinking about the young Robert who was aging out of the system and and I know I'm getting emotional because it's been six years, but this day has not changed how I feel about this young boy who entered my life that day. And I remember as I got in the car and it was quiet and the kids said, Daddy, we have to do something for Alex. And I was like, guys, I know I don't know what to do. And my kids said, we have to bring them home. And I was like,

what? And I looked at reason, reason was like, what's one more kid? My husband and I were the very first couple in the state of Maryland, to petition the courts to have a kid from foster care live with us without a stipend. As I stood in that courtroom three months after meeting this young man, I remember the judge said to me, Mr. Sheer, why would you do this? And I said to the judge, as I say to your viewers, every single child in this country deserves to be loved unconditionally,

they need to know that someone is there rooting them on every single step they make. And as I looked at my son, he was crying and he looked at me and he said, pops, you've changed my life. I looked at my son and I said, no, you're changing my life. And I only have one regret.

“And the judge said, Mr. Sheer, what is your regret? I think it's welcome to kindergarten.”

But now I get to walk with him for the rest of his life. Andrea, this young boy, year after that, we were in COVID. And my son walked up to me and he said, pops, would you adopt me? And I said, why? I said, Alex, should I go in anywhere? He said, no, I want to have the same last name as my sister and my brothers. And as you and data, Andrea, that doesn't tell you where I get my grit. Why my why is? Is because there are thousands of Alex's out there. And I want people to look at

those Alex's, like, I look at my son and know that tomorrow. My tomorrow is so bright because he's my leader. I am a busy working mom with a four year old and a seven year old. Neither of whom want to go to bed on time because it is summer and the sun is still up. So in short,

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I just got back from doing some reporting in the field with my producer Mariah and I noticed that she was sporting a very cute bag and what you know, it was the Italian leather hand woven convertible crossbody from Quincy. This bag easily looks like it could cost $500 but it is in fact $96 from Quincy. I've actually been buying this bag for a while online and after seeing it in real life, I had to go get one for myself. Mariah also told me she was sporting a pair of Quincy's black 100% European

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Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to Quincy.com/believe for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Quincy.com/believe for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quincy.com/believe. You can find that information in our show notes and remember the shopping our sponsors is a great way to support the show. One of my questions for you, I think it's sort of become a common theme with a lot of people that we talk to who have

situations of abuse in their background and that a lot of this comes back up for them when they become parents. When you become a parent inevitably and you know like I I had a really lovely childhood my situation is with my sibling but it was her becoming a parent that brought all of that trauma so I certainly like relived a lot when I was pregnant with my first child that's sort of how I got into this arena and so I wonder like for you and I think it's so interesting when we talk about

for foster parenting and foster to adopt and adoptive parenting it's even a more intentional choice

“right when you're two men you have to make a very intentional choice to become parents not going”

to have an accidentally so like as you were facing that big change in your life like how did you as a person who did not have you know of a father that was a good example obviously like how did you figure out how to be the dad that you wanted to be like what did that look like for you you know making making that transition because you were also like we're both also were older parents right I had my kids at 36 and 40 it's you you are yeah so we're it's same age right so it's like

you had a lot of life before then I think there's no bigger life change than becoming a parent so like how did you prepare to take that on and like what were maybe some of the expected challenges and then what maybe what were some like unexpected challenges so I will tell you that I walked into this blind I walked into this only wanting to be a parent I walked into this

wanting to be a dad to one kid that was it I had an amazing career in the dot com world

we were very financially stable my husband had just gotten his masters as an interior design working it in a top rated firm got that dual income no kids lifestyle right we it oh my gosh it was crazy so we had bought a brownstone in DC we had gutted it recently we had restored it Reese being an interior designer you couldn't even imagine was like a music our first two kids arrived um they were two and four and they arrived that first night and I

“remember when they handed McCoy to Reese and I wrote about this in my book I was angry with”

Reese I was pissed because he bonded immediately with McCoy and he just had this like it just flowed out of him out of be a parent and how to be a good dad and how to be nurturing and I was like stumbling and I was like what if I drop him and what if he pisses me off and I get angry and yell at him like my foster father yelled at me or what if you know all of those things and then I saw the trash bag and then I thought about that and then the social worker

and how she spoke to me I thought about how they spoke to Mike let me tell you I doubled my therapy up at that point and I had been doing therapy by the way I've been doing therapy since I was in my 20s because I couldn't be where I met today without therapy and dealing with all my trauma

but the problem is I had packed all that away thinking I had dealt with it but when those kids arrived

it all changed so yeah I have to say I give my husband the credit in the world for helping me be the man I am today if you read my book it's a love story to Reese but I also think my father and my father-in-law gone past the wake a couple years ago but he was so gentle and so kind to me about knowing where I had come from and not having the foundation that Reese had had and so he helped me with that but now I'm going to say something my kids are now older and I've

seen how we've built that foundation with our kids you know my daughter she's 22 years old and she just said to me just the other day her sister her biological sister had come to visit and let me tell you our adoptions different than most people's adoptions because I can tell you my

kids never look at me and say why'd you keep me from my family why'd you take no you know my kids

no my kids know about their journey because they also know at the end of the day was about choices and so I choose to have their family a part of our table and so anyway my daughter said to me that the day she said aren't you glad that I broke the cycle and I said cycle what's the cycle did you break she says I'm 22 no kids educated and she says aren't you proud I said

have to be because I knew you would do this because I know that you're proud of yourself that is about what to be proud of yeah I know that's but that's beautiful can you tell it can you tell us about about Roger because I really love that story in the book you know I've never talked about Roger in any interview and all the interviews I've done since this book came out no one has asked me that question who well I wanted a family I wanted a mom and a dad I wanted that so bad I craved it even

to this day and when I met Roger it was that person I needed he was older than me black guy lived in DC rompio man I remember he was like I don't need any more friends especially some white dude and I was like what the hell I'm gonna make you like me and I go and I did so much he became my

pops and I remember I bought him his very first car he never owned a new car and I remember I

took him and I was like pick out whatever you was like I can get whatever it just gave me so much joy to see the joy and Roger and as the years went by and I moved a man and he lived with me to care of me I felt like he took care of me I had a partner and it was very abusive and Roger used to say to me you got to leave him you got and he would say to me when I die you promised me you would leave him and I wouldn't leave him because I didn't want to disrupt Roger's life you know Roger was he had

moved out of DC we moved him to the suburbs he was living the best life he could ever live and I didn't want his life to be changed so I took the beatings and the abuse says my mother did

“as my sisters did because I thought that that's what was supposed to be I thought it was okay”

for men to hit me because I didn't deserve more than that and let me tell you I was in my early thirties and I was still allowing a man to hit me but Roger he knew there was something more so when Roger died he died in my arms I regretted and get to meet my kids I regret that he didn't get to meet Reese because he would have loved Reese he would have said this is what I waited for

because Reese has never raised his voice he never raises hand he Reese has taught me so much

about a relationship but yeah Roger he built the foundation for me to be this dad that I am I loved reading that part of the book and and I think my father also had not ideal parents and he talks to this day about some of these family friends that he saw a lot right who just he felt like they actually saw him and like saw him for who he was and sort of saw that potential

“and saw just their humanity and his humanity and I think like there's so much that we talk”

about with these systems that feels so you know it can feel bleak right that these these issues are so overwhelming and difficult to solve and we're doing so many things that are unhelpful and the way it's being talked about in so many spaces is unhelpful but I think it's like I talk to a lot of people who are in some kind of situation where there's a child that is being medically abused who's in their life and they can't they've reported and nothing's happened and they don't know what to do and

it's like just even being that person to sort of reinforce that that child is more than the story they're being told about themselves I think with all abuse there's this sort of element of there's there's a message that you're not a human unto yourself that you're not worthy and I think with much hasn't by proxy it it comes out in this like they're just their illness they're just they're vehicle for their parent to get what they want and I think that's that's abuse kind of

large that that's also true and so I think like just I just have this really strong belief that if we just start treating children like human beings more that that that's like a step in the right direction first of all we have to admit my our generation and the generations of before us have

gotten him wrong they always say investing a child you investing their future that's bullshit

you invest in a child you invest in my future they're my leader of tomorrow okay but the problem that I'm seeing within society is that we have this tunnel vision so much with families with kids just need one acting caring adult that's it one adult to watch over them to care about them to protect them to love them and by the way I've said this to many people you don't have to know

“someone to love someone and that's what a kid needs that adult is going to make sure that”

that abuse isn't happening you made a common earlier Andrea and I'm going to go back to it about the one acts of kindness you know it's that adult that acts of kindness I had that throughout my life you know I think about it now you don't think about when you're a kid I didn't think about I will never forget it when I was writing the one we were John and I were writing the book he was asking the same questions you were asking about come on there had to be and it was that

teacher Mrs. Bowley wrote about her in the book the teacher who when I was homeless she always seemed to have extra food at lunchtime and I remember I was a senior in high school and when you were

grades I was able to my senior year I only had to take two classes to graduate English and

“history I think it was but because I was the homeless kid I'll be damned if I was leaving school so”

I took five elective classes and they were all Mrs. Bowley's class she allowed me to be in her

class all of the electives and so she would bring food and she would always give me that look

across the room that I needed so now fast forward 2018 my book comes out my publicist comes to me and they say you're going on a book tour and I was like oh okay yeah and they said first stop minasses for junior and I said bull crap and they said you were going back to your hometown I said you realize I have not been back to that town since I'm 18 years old I didn't know if I could take that I didn't bring my biological sister I flew her in my husband our kids we drive

my agent flies in from New York I walk in and I pull up we put first we pull up and there's a line and I say what is this and they were like we're here to see you I was like what the hell you know I go in I'm goosebumps I sit down at this table and I'm signing away and all of a sudden I

hear you know Robert I always knew you would amount to something and I looked up Andrea and there was

Mrs. Bowley she was crying I get up behind the desk I'm crying we're hugging I mean this is a woman in her 70s now by the way I thought she was so much older than me well you know when when you meet someone when you're a kid and they're an adult you're just like I'm a kid and that person's old and that cover person could be like 25 or they could be like 47 or they could be 65 and you're just like you have no concept of I would just like I love to ask my kids how old they think people are it's

reliably hilarious yeah anyway she didn't have social media or anything so somebody from the school ended up writing her a letter and telling her about me and that I wrote about her in my book and so anyway so she came to surprise me but what the thing is is that she did get me over that hump and throughout my life there's been people who have done those acts of kindness to help me get to where I'm at today and it still happens the other thing that I really wanted I thought you have

such an interesting perspective on is you know we've been sort of talking about these various sort of sides of the coin that some of these this rhetoric is coming from and when we talk about this like real parents rights absolutism right there's a group of people that what they're

advocating for is even stronger constitutional protections for parents to basically do whatever

short of death to their children and that there should be no place for state intervention that there should be no place for doctors or teachers or anyone in the community to intervene right and now

“this is obviously it's an extreme but there's a continuum what I think is strong and a little bit”

more mainstream is this idea of like what a family is right mom dad X number of biological children that's a family and then that's something that she'd be preserved at all costs and anything that we do to sort of have the state intervene in the family right and it's like not very long ago that women were seen as sort of part of this right you had these coverture laws where like one generation one and a half generations ago approximately you know it's like oh you don't need rights

you're married you you have your husband to make the decisions for you right I think like you have such a unique take on like having an on traditional family I love to get this kind of expansive conversation and we we weren't you know one of the things we were talking about with our abolitionist guest was that it wasn't also wasn't very long ago in history that black people were not considered a family right they did not they were not considered to have these same legal rights

to be married to have children to have rights over their children so that this has been a very narrow slice of people that sort of the rights to their children has been applied to and so I wonder from your perspective like how would you sort of push back on people that that say well kids should be with their biological parents kind of no matter what first of all you say that it's it's only extreme cases but you and I know that extreme cases turn into more and more and more

if we do not keep an eye on them oh yeah and that is what's happening and the extreme is consuming us all yeah exactly and so once again when children are a property we got to stop this

“and we got to make the policy makers the lawmakers that's the only way things happen the policy”

makers the lawmakers have to understand that children even at a young age have the wherewithal to know the right path that they need to go down so we got to continue to stop this and you just made a comment about medical and so to me that's not a good act that's abuse it is abuse when you do not take your kid to a doctor we could get in this conversation and about vaccine I think that's abuse I think it is absolute abuse when you can take a child and have a child be

are you think we have a history we know what's right and when we give people voices change

makes it better when we give people voices the outcome is better children deserve the same outcome

“yeah and I think you've come up through a unique time becoming a parent because I think it's”

it might be easy for the youngs to forget not that not that we do not still deal with a lot of homophobia in this country but like how much worse it was 20 years ago 25 years ago 30 years ago 15 years ago when recent I were adopting our kids and I had to hire somebody to testify that I wasn't gonna turn my kids gay then we had to hire somebody to testify that because my kids were black and we were white we weren't gonna turn them white now what did that look like

and actually we've had we've had somebody talking because one of our cases involved a translational adoption that was not a good situation unfortunately in this in this case but how did you guys navigate kind of that challenge because you talk about that a little in the book and sort of in keeping your kids in touch with their family members where it was safe and possible and like how do you kind of navigate that particular sort of unique challenge we still have to

navigate it by the way and my kids are now 17 through 25 but you know as I've said to Alex my white son he is my only white kid we parent him differently than my boys my black boys so much of that is a society driven but the thing that I want people to know though in recent I've experienced this there is a lot of hatred out there there is a lot of it but I'm gonna have to say and I've asked our kids this and just recently my 17 year old son was being interviewed and they asked him

have you ever dealt with any hatred because of your gay dad's my 17 year old black son said no one has ever said anything to me that's a relief because by the way Andrea I've got females I've gotten the phone calls I've gotten the comments in public so I know it's still out there but I have to say this younger generation they're doing it differently than we did it

“I think that that is such a marker program because I see that too with the younger”

like Gen Z and younger it's like which is so beautiful that they just like my like my kids are

little too right it's like they would never think it was weird for like a boy to be with but

they're just it's just not even like and not even in a way where they're like trying to be progressive right it's like no they just don't they don't care it does not it does not compute for them and I think it's like looking at you know because I'm 44 and it's like looking at how much different things were you know and I was a kid in the 80s when I was a teenager in the 90s in the odd's like what what was sort of just like acceptable like people just like calling each other

gay as a slur like just it's just not even on their radar and I think that that's kind of like when you know the real progress is made when they don't even know their sort of we're supposed to be thinking about it I'm gonna tell you so I've even heard the kids I've had I've heard one of my kids which kind of shocked the living day lights out of me one of my kids somebody said to them something about partners or something and they said no my dad's are married so they get it they you

know might I have to let your viewers know that even though we had to hire those botanized study experts and stuff our kids now recent I looked at each other the other day and we were like what the hell did we do wrong not one of our kids like showtunes not one of them hit her so what you're telling me Rob is you did try to make them just like a little bit didn't take but it didn't take

“even might you know you have to accept your straight kids Rob you just you have to like you have”

to accept that they're straight. I remember when my daughter was chosen as the American girl this century and they were making a doll out for her and oh my god I mean I had like being a yeah being a kid of the 80s I'm like I can't imagine a bigger honor it's like we're so American girl doll piled. I get to tell you the quick story then so I'd been on TV or something they had seen my daughter um heard something about it and Mattel reaches out to CAA I'm wrapped with them and they

reached out and said hey we'd like to interview your daughter for the American girl magazine and so I was like well I gotta tell you my daughter doesn't have one of those dolls we tried to get her to get

one of those dolls and knew you are can she didn't want one so we've never pushed it mind you my

daughter is a girly girl she just never was into dolls anyway so they come out they interview my daughter they go back I don't hear anything for months all of a sudden I get this FedEx and I open it up and it's a copy of the American girl magazine and there's my daughter and she had been chosen in the Christmas edition and it talked about her and our non-profit comfort cases giving backpacks instead of trash bags and and she has a picture of me and her on this chair and then her and her

trism magazine comes out and we're just an awe you know and all of a sudden the hate comes out

“people are just attacking me mind you I'm in the dot com were of I had not experienced being in the”

media yet I'd only been dabbling in a little bit of TV and I mean we're talking major hate the million moms group comes after me and they proceed to start boycotting metal well let me tell you something that was a big plus for me because we'll be Goldberg found out about it and the next thing you know I'm on the view how they strike and defected you a view Ellen everybody's talking about the shears and this girl who has just been the heart of everything fast forward my daughter turned

16 metal reaches out and says we did a vote and your daughter has been chosen with Marissa

Hargity Haggerty I always have a name wrong um as the Ameri- from lawn order SVU and Jerry Seinfeld's wife

the three of them had been chosen as American people of the century and so they were making three dolls after these three my daughter had an adult go to my daughter and I'm like oh my yeah they're making it a Maya doll after you and she's like okay and I was like they want you to come to New York and cut the ribbon of the new American girl man she's like you did tell them I still don't have one of those dolls I said oh my I know I said they were making it all she says I'll only go

if they write this charity a check so it's not enough writing a ten thousand dollar check the Comfort cases my daughter goes up she cuts the ribbon they handle this beautiful doll the Maya doll looks just like her she comes home it's in the bottom of her closet so anyway that's the story of kids trying to grow where they're gonna be in life let me tell you kids are resilient

kids are amazing and that generation god they are so getting it right they don't have a crap

because me help us give us hope and by the way let me tell you something else that I think there's hope with I do believe that we're gonna start seeing these statistics go down because we're gonna start seeing that we're not normalizing abuse when we're talking about a piece of head trauma this

“last season it it really I think it's so important to again just like sort of a step one that we're”

still in from you know the battered child syndrome medical paper on words right is really just like dragging this into the light because what has struck me you know I've covered all these media stories where parents said they've been falsely accused of abuse and then you look at the evidence in the case and it just doesn't it doesn't add up and it's more likely that that you know they were either given a case plan or they you know or they just pled to a lesser charge or

something but not that they were falsely accused not that a doctor just made it up just because right and it was grounds right right and so what I think about sometimes with those parents that are in those situations and there's a range right we looked at some perpetrators that had long histories of islands that had long histories of domestic abuse that were more I think what we sort of typically think of like that's a violent person and they were violent with their

child and then there were other stories including you know we talked to a mom who is raising

who as a child who's a survivor of abuse of head trauma as a baby and her husband had never been

violent and never done anything that she would have thought he would be this person and the reality of abuse of head trauma right it happens with most often with kids that are two months old and four months old it's crying it's stressed it's lack of sleep it's a bunch of compounding factors and it might be someone who's violent and should never be around kids again it might be someone

“who has a moment and I think it is that kind of case by case thing but none of it is helped”

by denying its existence and I agree with you and the thing the problem that I see with all of that is yes people do have those moments I mean I have a son who came to me because of one of those moments mind by you she was 12 but you know that's a whole different other story but but the thing is it's how we approach it it's how we're dealing with it and the thing is is that if we continue to keep denying it to me that is where victims have a big issue from what I've experienced my talking

with is that the denial they just want to they want the chapter to close but they can't close it when people don't accept it and admit that it happened and now I'll give you my parents the same situation I remember I was on my fourth suicide attempt and because I wanted to end my life because I couldn't deal with all the abuse that I had dealt with because I couldn't deal with it and for me mine was about forgiving you know I just so angry like you know my community had failed me my parents had

failed me my foster parents had failed me and I was so angry that it took me to forgive my parents I didn't forgive them for them to rest easier in that ground or wherever the hell they were going but I did that because I needed to figure a way to get the power back for me and that for me was

made some bad decisions I got with Billy and it was a hell and you know I don't know Andrea at

59 I'm still dealing with it and I'm not going to sit here and say that I don't and by the way you said something those moments that we have when you're somebody like me that has so much baggage that sometimes you even an elevator doesn't have enough room for it you still worry about those moments my son one of my middle sons 19 just recently did something that didn't expect one of my kids to ever do broke the trust broke the and I remember I just remember just

it hadn't been long ago that this all happened but my anger level got to such a level because I was so just I could have seen where somebody could have been that moment but at the same time I checked

“myself and I think that that's what we need to do as victims as realize it when we get to that level”

you need to check yourself give yourself grace but then walk away because so many times as a young

person you didn't have the opportunity to walk away so you had to be in that abuse now you get to make the choice and that choice you gotta walk away robbed you think that part of this is that we're just not honest enough about how difficult parenting is thank you thank you you're the Andrea I'm telling you you and I were meant to talk because it is it's it's it's fucking difficult it is hard it's not rewarding like people all say it is there are moments that are very dark and times

you constantly questioning yourself and then they make the mistake and then you beat yourself up because you're like how do they make that mistake when I set them up for success you have to

realize their humans and you have to also give them grace so yeah it's it's a double at its sword a

“double at sword yeah and you know I think like yes adults are in charge of their own emotions”

and their own coping mechanisms and they are responsible for their actions and as I'm reading some of these stories about how abuse of head trauma takes place or these other kind of physical abuse cases in particular and sometimes it is as parent where you're just like it's not that they're not accountable for what they did but you just thought man if that parent just could have walked out of the room if they felt like they could leave if they felt like you know if that mom felt

like she could hand it off to her partner safely for a night if she could go get a night sleep it's so different than much hasn't by proxy abuse in that way where you're just like oh there are things where this person it's like they didn't have to go down that road and become that person and it is such a it's a tragedy for the abuser too you know to have become the person

“that does that to a baby to become the person who does that it's a child and I think it's the”

theory but I think that's part of what's behind some of this like then the person goes to the media and they'll sue the hospital and they have to do all of this because they're running away from what they did and if we had you know you were sort of talking about like this community aspect and I think that's something that the abolitionists talk about a lot as well right like what if we had and I look at this last case that we covered on one of the last cases we covered on the show

and I was like well what if that mom had really high quality day care that she could take her kids do for free and she would not have had to leave them with this boyfriend and the fact is like things like child care and medicine they are runously expensive in this country and I think like we're just you know and even the neglect aspect right it's like we were talking to a foster care pediatrician and she was talking about you know some of the some of the situation she's seen kids coming out of you

know where it's just like places where you would not and that might be because their parents need help we should be looking for those opportunities where the parent could be helped by resources and then also drawing the line where that's not the problem and it's so complicated. Here's it is complicated but but but guess what it's worth it it's worth it for us to get it right for the kids Nelson Mandela said it so clearly each and every one of us are judged in society by the way we

treat our children think about that kids in foster care they don't belong to you they don't belong to me they belong to us. I think all kids belong to all of us that's kind of a you know like I and if that I have to give you that you know I'll take them all I'll take them all I mean they don't all have to go live in your house Rob you. I promise free so I wouldn't bring all many more kids. I just think again with in society that we have got to get back to the root cause of what

deteriorating within the family and I am all for let's getting in there and let's foster the family. Yeah yeah it's again like it's it's so complicated and I think what you said about the sort of the Nelson Mandela quote and sort of this idea of like I'm grateful that this work is

children you know so my kids are little they're um my daughter will be eight in the fall and my

son just turned four and so you know especially my daughter right it's their first like she's going

into second grade it's like she's just getting more and more out in the world and it's so special to see and it's given me this appreciation for all of these other adults that are going to be in my kids life and other people and that they she's have gonna have her own relationships that like don't directly involve me and I really think about like what I want for my kids I mean obviously they're my children and and I have it an academic or I talk to you from Brazil who is fascinating

who sort of gave me this reframe of like what if we thought about children as people that we have a duty towards rather than rights over and I just loved that reframe and I kind of think like

that also at a community level right like I think the kids in my daughter's school

are also my you know not to be like oh they're all my children but like they're also my responsibility and the teachers responsibility and the neighbors responsibility and the doctors who are seeing these children it's like that there's a shared responsibility because I think that can only ever

“benefit kids now obviously as a parent you have to decide like right who or the right adults to”

have in your kids I it's not that there's no gatekeeping there but it's like my children are human beings they've been human beings since the day they were born and they've been their own human beings since the day where they were born and like they are members of a community not just my household you know yes and by the way they're going to be inviting you to parts of their

community so I have one daughter I for boys and I've said this so many times there is never been a

greater gift than being a father to a girl it is a feeling within my heart that I have never felt before I tell people men especially if you ever have an opportunity to be a father to a girl I'm telling there's no other feeling and I've raised my daughter as a princess because she will be a queen one day and I also remind already an American girl to all of the centuries she's on her way she's on her way and and I remind people women actually rule this world men just can't get out of the

way to make sure it happens so I don't know about that Rob but well sure I don't feel like that right now in 2020 sex but I'll take your word for it maybe it's the long trajectory the very very long

“trajectory I don't think so either but you know again I think that if we all realize what you know”

children are not property that I feel that if we could change anything we need to change the fact where we don't there used to be that I was bringing this up the elders used to say you know children is supposed to be seen and not heard that generation we grew up in that generation this generation bullshit they want kids to be heard they want kids to have a voice and I think that we need to stand next to this generation helping them mold this new future that they see because they're cleaning

up a lot of shit we did and so I think that if we start supporting them that's where we're going to see a difference well this has been so great Rob so before I want to give you a chance to talk about your work with comfort cases but is there anything that I should have asked you that I did not ask you I think you asked me everything and I loved it you asked me things that I didn't know I was going to share and I loved it so I I wear the shirt be a good human I I try to live what I say

“is that you know it's so important that we are good humans to each other that's how we make tomorrow”

brighter and when it comes to comfort cases I just wanted to teach my kids that your legacy is about what you give and not what you take and I wanted my kids to walk by my dash and say that my dash for my dad my his dash didn't just shine he did he did what he said he was going to do and most people heard the story of the dash we all have it whether you're rich poor white black gaze straight every person in this world are going to be receiving the same thing and that's a dash

the year you live your dash the year you die that dash I won't mind to be bright I wanted to shine so bright that my kids are like my dad he did it he did it so with comfort cases I want kids to know that I see them that a trash bag was designed for trash not children's clothing and that if we pick the low hanging fruit from the tree our tree grows taller and every child deserves to know that in society they have a place at the table and in my society they have a voice

nobody should believe me is produced and hosted by me Andrea Zamma our editor is greatest drama quest and our senior producer is Mariah Gossett and administrative support from Nola Karmuch

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