All Songs Considered: Cruelly ranking the best original song Oscar nominees

This episode of All Songs Considered Comes To From The NPR Music Podcast, whe...

Hello, Robin.

“Steven, you're also a host for pop culture happy hour.”

You report on the Billboard charts. I was gonna try to promote some of your stuff.

Like, you really actually do quite a lot of this. It's a lie. I thought this guy was like, didn't actually work here. Yeah, every day I'm like, how is he still here? Does he get a check? Are we paying him for this? You've also been known to write the occasional feature for NPR, including one that you have been doing for a number of years now.

Every year around this time of year, you have been ranking the best song nominees for the Oscars. Yeah, I've been doing this since 2019. Every single year that I've written this feature,

Diane Warren has been nominated. I think she's like not out in the ninth year in a row.

In this category, she is on her ninth year in a row being nominated from her total 17 nominations for Best Original Song. It would be, in a way, it would be more mind-boggling if most of the songs were any good.

“Yo, we're gonna get into on this episode because that's what we're gonna do. We're going to”

in your own words, cruelly, cruelly, cruelly, rank the best song nominees for this year's Oscars. What is it? What do you what your criteria is? Is this like, do you rank these based on just the quality of the song or what you think the chances are that it's going to win?

It's definitely never based on odds of victory, though usually at some point in the article,

I will say, like, expect this one to win. This is the odds on favorite or whatever. But I'm really trying to rank them just in order of quality. And I actually think, this is a pretty good crop of songs. Oh, certainly comes out of the last year. Last year was, I thought, an unusually weak batch. This is an unusually strong batch.

I'm going to just let you rank these and, you know, I'll defer to you.

“I think we're probably going to be mostly an agreement here.”

But let me just, I'll quickly say what the nominees are and then we'll just start with number five and work backwards. You mentioned Diane Warren, her song, "Dear Me," from the relentless documentary. The documentary, "Dion Warren," colon relentless. That's the name of the documentary. I lied to you from sinners. Sweet dreams of joy from Beaver D. That documentary, Golden from Kpop, Demon Hunters, and then Train Dreams from the film, "Train Dreams."

What do you got in number five? It is the song "Dear Me," from the documentary, "Dion Warren," colon relentless, performed by Kesha. You're going to be alright, you'll see. You'll see. Didn't mean it's going to be alright. You're going to be alright. Trust me, all in the pain is all going to change. You might think you can't do it, but you're going to get through this.

It'll all get better, so you'll see. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. You're just one running hide, every day feeling like the whole world's against you. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through.

"Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through.

"Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through.

"Dear Me," "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're goi...

"Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through.

"Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through.

"Dear Me," "Dear Me," "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through.

"Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," I know you feel like nobody understands what you're going through. "Dear Me," "Dear Me," it is staggering. It is staggering the number of songs she's had nominated.

17, 17, and she's never won.

No, she's never won.

“And I will say, in Diane Warren's defense, I think Diane Warren should have won two Academy Awards.”

All right, let's hear it, because I have won. Okay, I think she should have won twice and been nominated roughly five times. Okay. I think I don't want to miss a thing. Should have won over when you believe from Prince of Egypt in the late 90s. I think her song with Lady Gaga till it happens to you,

should have won over the Sam Smith James Bond song. That was 2016, that's the one that I had down. I thought I, of all of the years, that's the one. That was the thick one. It was the strongest song in that field.

It was the most heartfelt song in the field. It was the song that had the most to say in the field. She's a credible performance during the Sam Smith and her performance by Lady Gaga. It is a great song.

The problem is this particular run that Diane Warren has been on ever since,

the song's feel extremely generic. But this is my biggest problem. Mm-hmm.

“She's been writing the same song for like 40 years.”

I'm not dismissing the themes of the songs. They're important. They resonate with people. But it's always we're going to get through this, we're stronger. It's I'm standing with you. I'll rise.

I'll help you a lot of them are like, I will prevail over the obstacle that I face. And very often the lyrics are not much more insightful than you would find on the nearest throw pillow. I will say this.

I'm not a big fan of many of her songs. But I became a fan of her after I watched that documentary. I, she's a pistol. She really, I, I really, she won me over. She, she, that's one word for her.

She's, she is relentless. But you know, all the stuff about her childhood and her relationship with their parents, particularly her mom, that really kind of broke my heart. And I came away from that documentary, really not like in her music anymore than I already did.

But liking her a whole lot more. I did find it illuminating as somebody who ends up having to write about her at this time every single year. I, I appreciated seeing the movie and kind of getting that perspective on it. But listening to these songs in a vacuum,

this is the fifth best out of five. So dare me from Diane Warren in a number five, would you have at number four? Well, now we're getting into songs I really like. [LAUGHTER]

It really does start getting more difficult. Like these next couple and then the next couple. Exactly. It's easier to get in here. What's three or four going to be and then one or two are going to be, is where we might have some

disagreement. Exactly, these, these are interiors. And I don't think there's necessarily a wrong answer if you're ranking.

“Between three and four, I think these are both solid songs.”

The song I went with at number four is the song "Train Dreams." From "Train Dreams," performed by Nick Cave and Bryce Dessner. [MUSIC] I've seen it grizzly because I was walk across an open plane. I heard of a boy called Elvis something.

His voice could drive young girls insane. I've seen a man from a mile away. Shoot a bobcat through the brain, but lately I've been having dream. Crazy dreams I can't explain. A woman standing in the field of flowers, screaming a locomotive train.

Crazy dreams are going for us and I can't begin to tell you how that feels.

[MUSIC]

Seeing an out with twisted antlers, throw-brain lightning across the sky.

“Seeing a man with a broken curse, leap from a bridge and try to fly.”

Seeing a boy was a dog who became a man who forgot to die. Mainly I've been having dreams. Crazy dreams I can't explain. A woman standing in the field of flowers and screaming a locomotive train. Crazy dreams are going for us and I can't begin to tell you how that feels.

[MUSIC]

The space that connects me where I am now, to the place where I'll one day be.

It's measured in the woods that we speak. The strange and wondrous things I've seen. It's measured in truth, it's measured in love. Measured in a tendency to paint. Measured by a girl in a field of flowers.

Screaming dream of a midnight train. This is being going on for years.

Years and years and years and years and years and years and years and years.

I can't begin to tell you how that feels. [MUSIC] [BLANK_AUDIO] [MUSIC] So I had this one at number three, myself.

I actually went back and forth. Did you switch them back and forth? Okay, is number three for you, Verde? Yes. Yeah, so I had these two flipped.

“But what you make your case and I'll tell you what I think.”

One of the criteria that I use when I'm ranking the songs is how is the song incorporated into the movie. And this song absolutely, this is a closing credits song. And that sometimes it provides a little bit of a strike against something as far as the purposes of ranking.

I do appreciate about this song that it is directly expanding on the themes of the film. This is a song that is clearly written in concert with the film and the film maker. This is a movie that is about a life in total. It is about visions of death and kind of an accumulation of a mix of kind of traumas and wonders. And the song is about all of those things and really speaks directly to those things.

Bryce Desner gives it this kind of gorgeous, very Bryce Desnery arrangement. Nick Cave who certainly has an extremely large amount of gravitas as a singer, as a performer, as a lyricist, somebody who has also lived a life full of trauma and wonder invests the song with a lot of, like I said, gravitas. And I think it works very well.

“The only thing that ticked it from number three to number four for me is that it is not”

incorporated and interesting. You're dinging it for that because it is the only one that is just a true kind of, all the other, but almost recitation. Yeah, here it is. Here's the end of the film. It's the credit sequence that we need a song. So they go to Nick Cave and say, well, you write a song about the movie that we can tack on in the end.

I get that. But I guess if the whole point of having a song like that at the end of a movie is to sort of send you out of the theater in a certain headspace. I mean, I would assume the movie has done that, but if you, if you need the song at the end,

Like, here's how you should feel.

The Nick Cave, his voice is perfect for it. It's earthy. It's kind of, it's Oki. It's like, you know, it's like it's it's full of whiskey and age and time. And that's sort of what the movie is. It follows this guy. You mentioned some of the themes, one of the other themes is just the vastness of time, because you follow him from his childhood in the 1800s all the way into old age.

“I think he lives to be in the 80s into the 1960s. And to me, this was a stronger song than what you have.”

Like, yeah, I mean, I've really gone back and forth and as we're discussing and I'm like, maybe I should put it at number three. Because it is a strong song and I will say, I mean, you saw a train dreams, though, that the film as well. I think it's a beautiful film. And it is a film that perfectly nails its final frame, the final frame of the film. Can we, is this a, I don't think, there's no reason to spoil it.

Okay. I mean, it's not a plot, it's not a plot point. It is just a perfect image to sum up that moment. And then you get in that final frame, you are then kind of drifting into the song. That is the perfect way to experience this song. And I think the power of the song is greater

“coming out of that scene than it is as a freestanding video on YouTube.”

So train dreams by Nick Cave. From the film train dreams, you've got that at number four. All right, we're cruelly ranking the best song nominees for the Oscars this year. Steven Thompson here. We've done, let's see, at number five, we had Diane Warren's song "Dear Me" and then at number four, you had train dreams by Nick Cave and Bryce Desner. So that means at number three, you've got sweet dreams of joy from Viva Verdi.

♪ Now, round and round, suddenly swore me ♪ ♪ And I'm pleased in a song ♪ ♪ To tell you ♪

♪ When I never heard of a rhyme ♪

♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of ♪

“♪ And tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪”

♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪

♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪

♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪

♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪

♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪

♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ ♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪

♪ To tell you, I'm always heard of a rhyme ♪ So this is definitely the most left field. So left field.

Entry in this category.

A plus for something totally different.

“And honestly, I was impressed because they released a short list of the 15 kind of candidates for nomination”

while before the nominations come out. And so you can see what songs are eligible for nomination. There are 15 of those songs. And when I was looking over that list, this was the one where I was like, well, there's absolutely no way that's getting nominated. Right.

And then it was. And I'm really glad that it was. I mean, Viva Verdi, the film itself is this very, very slight documentary about a retirement home for musicians in Italy founded by the composer Giuseppe Verdi, who died in 1901. And he wanted to create a place where retired musicians could kind of live without having to worry about anything.

And could mentor young artists.

And the film itself, I don't know if the film contains enough insight to support a feature film.

I think it might work better as a documentary short. But the song in question, which is excerpted about halfway through the film, is an operatic piece composed by Nicholas Pike and performed by Anna Maria Martinez. And it is this kind of lovely, free standing piece that gives you a sense of the emotion and depth and grace of what a piece like this can do. It is a very uplifting piece. It is called Sweet Dreams of Joy.

Um, I think, literally, it's maybe a little coin. But musically, it is really grand and sweeping and beautiful. And I think the story of this film is kind of interesting because the song, this song in question, was released in 2017. Yeah.

“That's how long they've been working on this film.”

Yeah. Because it is absolutely eligible for an Academy Award. It was written for this film. But this movie was largely made so long ago that most of its subjects have died. Yeah.

And so this film is finally coming out.

It's finally come out. You can, you can stream it on a streaming service called Jolt. Yeah. Which is like, are we just naming streaming services after energy drinks from the 90s? Well, there is prime.

You can watch it on search plus. But, you know, it is a very little scene film. And it is a very little heard song. If you go to YouTube and kind of click on the videos for each of these songs. You know, how many times is the video for Golden from Kpop demon hunters been viewed on YouTube versus how many times has the video for sweet dreams of joy?

I know. It is like low five figures. Yeah. If you combine all of the YouTube videos of this song. Well, again, sort of like comparing it to the Diane Warren when you got golden in the mix.

It's just not a fair competition. Everything that you said and just that, I love, I actually don't find it terribly clean. To me, it's like, again, it's more of a mood piece. They do seeing at one point time slipping by in a flow of desire, re-awaken. But more than anything though, it's really capturing just the awe and wonder that you might feel in old age if you're lucky enough to...

Yeah, if you have lived, if you have lived a full life. And so yeah, it absolutely is a song where you take it in the context of the film. It accumulates more power, lyric. Yeah, absolutely. And I did just find, like, man, that song absolutely worked on me.

It created that kind of swell of wonder and joy that you would want a piece of music in this context to bring out. I have some great little bits of wisdom in this film that I wrote down as I was watching it.

“Life is amazing, which you must not lose yourself.”

I love that. Like, it's not a road. It's a maze, right? Here's another one I wrote down. If you keep your mind busy, the body will follow.

Yeah. We're old, but the music inside us is young. So you had it at number three, which brings us to... Now we're taking a gigantic leap. Hugely, pure.

And I've given this so much thought. And I'm betting that you and I don't agree on these two. I bet you're right. Okay, so you tell me what you think is number two. So what I went with at number two, and I agonized over this, because I love not only both of these songs, but both of these films.

At number two, and I will explain myself at number two, is I lied to you from sinners, performed by Miles Caiton, written by Raphael Sadeek and Ludwig Gorinson. So I'm not the one to tell you for a long time. It might hurt you. Hope you don't lose your mind.

I was just a boy, about eight years old. Do me a Bible. What message should be wrote?