From Bit Parts to Two Emmy Nods: Jeff Hiller’s Long Road to Success

Um, and I don't need to play the romantic lead, and my times those are really boring parts. Hi everyone, from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. This is on with Keroswisher, and I'm Keroswisher. My guest today is actor and comedian Jeff Heller.

After years of playing Bitrolls as a stereotypical sassy gay man, Heller finally got his big break in his mid-40s.

It came from the HBO comedy drama "Somebody Somewhere." Heller played Joel, the compassionate best friend, to series star Bridget Everett's character Sam.

“Do you remember that time we came to my house, and we did Zumba?”

It's like the only time we ever did it with me? And he was sitting in the garage, and he said, "You don't know if I should get on this ride, because you weren't sure if you were friendship material." Yeah, it rings about. Do you think about that all the time?

God, I'm glad you're listening to you. The role Ern Hiller has first Emmy Award last year for outstanding supporting actor in a comedy series. He's up for another Emmy this year, it's for his guest appearance in the Apple TV show "Plerobis," which is one of my favorite shows. He has a recurring role in another big Apple TV show right now, Widows Bay, which was recently picked up for a second season.

I really like character actors in general.

I think, actually, Widows Bay is right with amazing character actors, and I just find them to be the most...

“I think important and poignant people that don't get attention, and they're often really stick with you long after.”

Their roles go away. So, let's get to my conversation with Jeff Hiller, our expert question comes from actor and producer Ali Wentworth, whom Jeff has worked worth in the past. She cast him in her sitcom "Night Cap." Don't go anywhere.

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Jeff, thank you for coming on on. Thank you for having me on on.

“On on, that's how I did it. That's how it works here.”

So, congratulations on your second M8 nomination. You've talked about how shocking your first nomination was last year after decades of just trying to make a living as an actor. How did number two compare? Are you one of those happy to be nominated types? Or are you just like, give me that fucking Emmy right now? Okay, I know it's cheesy, and I know this answer is like, "Come on, you're lying."

But I swear to you, I truly believe that I am just happy to be in the conversation at all, because I got to tell you, for a long, long time, I was like, you know, tempting and teaching improv. And just the idea that I get to be an actor at all is such a thrill for me. Also, it's like, I'm pretty sure I'm not going to win this one.

But I am just sort of like, "Wait, who's your biggest company? You're up against Coleman Domingo again?"

“Coleman Domingo, yeah, Jonathan Price. I mean, you know, it's like,”

and it's also, like, my role in Plurvis was, you know, I just went and seen, it was a very good scene. It was just one scene. It was an excellent scene. I was like, "What happened?" And yeah, it's such a spectacular show. Talk about that idea of being an actor, I know a lot of actors, and it's really difficult to keep going in general. I know, and you do sort of think like, last year when I won an Emmy, I was like, "Oh,

everything's fine now. It's all going to be fine." But it's like, "No, that's still a slog. It's still got to, like, you know, audition, and, you know, trying to fit your weird peg into a

square hole." So yeah, it's always hard. But it's a lot easier when you have a look.

Yes, absolutely. Emmy award winning. So you manage Chilean roles into a big breakout TV show that are getting a lot of talk, which is Plurvis and Widow's Bay. And your Emmy nomination for Plurvis, as you just noted, is for a guest appearance, your character, Larry, has to break it to race, e-horns character, a romance novels named Carol that her late wife didn't like her books. The idea behind the show is that everyone on Earth except Carol and a few others are now part of

the hype mind. They share one mind. Talk a little bit about it because I think it's all about AI, because of course I'm a tech person. I'm like, this is AI for all of us, because it's so psychophantic. It's got all the characters. I know the author has said, "No, it is not, but I don't care."

“That's what art is, right? Yes, exactly. Talk about this character.”

Well, when I auditioned, they were very secretive about what the hook of the show was. And so they told me, you know, just pretend that you really love her, your her father. You're talking about her dead mother. I wasn't a part of a hive mind talking about her dead life. So it was a little confusing. And at one point, he said something and I said, you mean like I know her, like, like I really know her or I know her, like I science fiction, he kind of know her. And he's like,

science fiction. Right, right, right, right. So, you know, the audition was complicated. And then when I got there, I went through, you know, a fitting and they gave me this weird, all these different bicycle uniforms. And I was like, what is this show? And it wasn't until Ray texted me to say, "Hey, would you like to come over to my place on Sunday?" Her one day off, you know, she just that Saturday had been in LA because she was in the bad boys movie and she needed to be the fifth

premiere. And so on her one day off from this incredibly intense shoot she invited me over to her house. And the writer, Alice and Tauok and the directors at Nathan, has sat down and just talked me through this thing, which you just explained. Actually, quite. Thank you. Well, very quickly and efficiently. And but of course I had like so many more questions. And the big takeaway was that my love for her is genuine and they really wanted me to have genuine love for her.

And so that was really my sort of guy post. Do you like my books? Oh, we love your books. What do you love about them? Everything. Your books are an expression of you. We love you. Need you to be more specific. Character arcs. Plot turns. Yes. Yes. We love the character arcs and the plot turns. Which ones? All of them. So it was a difficult actually acting exercise, but it was great. And the director said, she shot it like a play. And it's a seven and a half minute scene. And

Alice and was like, this never happens to TV. Let's just let it breathe and enjoy it. And it was

rain. I kind of nerd it out. Actors. Yeah. Exactly. But you had a shift, the conception of the character on the spot, right? Because you're speaking for everyone in some way. Exactly. And that was the big takeaway is that we all feel this way. But it was also just like knowing all of the words. Like even though you all have the same mind, if you have a list, you'll still have a list post thing. If you have a limp, you'll still have a limp. That kind of a thing. So I didn't

have to worry about like, I don't know, matching pitch or timber or anything. But just this idea of a nap moment we were so in love with her because it was kind of before she had done bad things to us. Right. Right. Before she had. And we'll continue to do so. It seems like that was the finest end to a season that I thought it was perfect. It was actually perfect.

“But standing out and just a short roll is really remarkable. Actually, I still remember that”

scene between there were several scenes like that, including when she talks about wanting to

also making him part of the hive? I mean, it was it was super complicated and there was, I mean,

there was just so many questions about like, but am I allowed to be this way or that way? And they were very patient. Right. But because I was just sort of landing and immediately shooting as a guest are, is want to do. The big thing was about just feeling showing how much I love her and how this information I know will disappoint her. But I can't lie. And so I have to very gently tell her this truth that I don't think she's going to want to hear. And in fact, she doesn't want to hear.

And I love that. And I love that. That idea of of finding out your partner isn't wild about your, uh, your work is so juicy. Yeah. Because that movie, um, you hurt my feelings that Nicole halftime, halftime, halftime movie that's so good about that exact topic. Yeah. Yes. So I was really into that concept and also into this concept of this hive mind, loving her, I'm wanting to protect her, but not being able to lie. No, not not tell the truth about what's happening.

If asked, if asked, because there's, there's a lot of omission by the, yeah, by omission. Yeah, now, which is what AI does by the way, FYI, they own hit things. Well, I mean, that's going to

“have said he's very, very much like there was no AI and made it. No, I think it's made in it.”

I think he's depicted it actually quite beautifully without maybe meaning to it is the idea

of sick of and see truthfulness, but not, but sort of anodine at the same time. It's never that

interesting, you know, it's always sort of mid, you know, there's nothing that's not mid that doesn't come out of AI and some fashion. Anyway, you did, you did not do a mid job. So one of the other ones, you said you have all these character actors, you have a recurring role in the show Widow's Bay. It's mostly a horror show about people who live on this mysterious island in New England, but a lot of ways, it's also a workplace comedy. And you play a character who's sort of a

functionary in the government. It's not clear what your job is, but you work for the mayor. You are good friends with the show's creator Katie is a dip-old. She also was a writer and coper who's for another great workplace comedy parks in REC. Talk about the comedy role on Widow's

“Bay and why it's important in a horror show like this. Well, the thing about Katie dip-old”

is that this is, I mean, it's, it's very interesting that it's plurbus and Widow's Bay, they're both on Apple and they're both by these very specific minds, these minds that are very unlike anyone else. And because I've known Katie for 24 years, I know her quite well. And the one thing I know about her is that she loves comedy writing and she loves horror movies. And she loves them. And she loves horror movies. I could see nine movies in that this last episode. Yeah, exactly. And she's

so versed in all of that. And so when I got the script, I was like, oh my god, this is both funny and scary. And that's so impressive. It's very difficult to do lots of people have tried it a lot of times. It doesn't work, the threading that needle, whatever, walking that line, how many metaphors can I throw at this? Try to balance that is really difficult. And so I sent in an audition and I didn't tell her I sent in an audition because I thought, I'm not going to be weird.

She's my friend, I don't want to. And I'll say why you have friends, but go ahead, come on. Oh, shit, you just changed my life. She saw it anyway. And and said, yeah, yeah, this is great. It's not going to work at all. You'd have to do it really differently. Right, right. Because I was a little wrong character. Yes, exactly. And she also said, it's a very tiny role. I completely get it if you don't want to do it. But I'd love to have you there,

but it's a very small role. He's going to die in episode, whatever I can't remember what episode it was. And I said, I would love to do it because I would love to get health insurance. I did it. And then it turned out to be this great show. They let me improvise a little bit here

“and there. And my role gradually got a little bit bigger until they finally said, do you mind?”

If we don't kill you off, which that happened even before I was nominated for an Emmy. So I don't know. They can't kill you off. I won't give away any spoilers, but your character,

Dale seems poised to have a much bigger role in the second season. He's the only one who knows

the island's dark secret of which there are many, by the way. How do you where do you see yourself headed with Dale? Dale is a minor role. I was like, where is he? And then you're sitting in a

ever did. Yeah, he's a best. Has she been waiting forever for that role? I feel like this is

“the perfect role for this woman. It really is. Yeah. And she got nominated for an Emmy, too,”

and she showed it. She was, you know, so exciting. But like, she also has had this incredible career. She was like the daytime hulker on my name is Oral, and she was in some of those delshore movies

and always been around. When she was born, she was so great. She had this amazing tender movie

kind of love song that was so great. I mean, she is like my dream character after me. So where do you see Dale going in this season? I mean, I could give you, they haven't told me a thing and they're not contractually obligated to bring me back. I might just be like, on the ferry, dying. But wait, were you born there? Can you leave? I don't know. I guess we don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I could leave. I don't know. Maybe I'm just on the ferry. And I don't even get the dying thing.

“Right, that's true. But I, you know, the secret. Yeah. I think that fact that he knows this secret”

is going to play into something. And I really hope that he, I would love to see him get some sort of

a horror movie episode that, that paradise, a horror movie that we, my dream, I tell us that the sorority on a podcast, sorry. I'm going to be, but my dream is that it would be a Rose Mary's baby situation. It's okay if you said another podcast, we're bigger. That is true actually. Why Rose Mary's baby? Because it's campy and the idea that like this like lame, you know, like spacey guy who doesn't even know that he should buy premium when he's a DJ goes home and he's like cruel to his twin brother.

Right, right, right, right, right, right. No, a dead bird or whatever. Yeah, yeah, it's true. You could do that.

I was thinking you were the Ruth. Oh, Ruth Gordon. Yeah. It's just Tannis Ruth. That's Mary.

Yeah. I'll do that too. Well, that. Well, then you could also be pregnant and you could be pregnant. How would you describe it for people who haven't seen it? I would call it, I called it aggressively quarky to someone, the other day. Aggressively. If you don't like our candy. Daddy's coming home, you know,

“that the games come on. It's true. It's it's a very own world and I think the big thing is it tries to”

be genuinely hilarious and genuinely scary. And I think it's successful at that. So you're in two different shows of blurbers in this, and although they're similar, they have a similar vibe. Why do you think people are liking these shows? Right. They also like writer Dye, which is kind of ridiculous and fun, you know. But what and please, I recommend it to everybody. It's so ridiculous and fantastic. I haven't seen it yet. I can't wait now. A lot of Hannah Wattington kicking ass. So it's fine.

Well, I do love her. Yeah. But what do you think is resonating with people right now with these kind of unusual severances in that sort of show? Yes. Well, I think it's, um, these are dark worlds, but it's not like our dark worlds. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's like we can figure it out. We can pull apart the the lore and figure out this mystery. Whereas we don't have that kind of control in our own life because there's, there's, I mean, every time you open the New York Times, it's like,

yeah, what? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It would be really nice to be able to drive someone in a boat out to the periphery and then they just explode. That would be great. It would really would be. We'll be back in a minute. Support for this show comes from Quince. A nice linen set lets you get away with a lot of outfit repetitions in the summer. You could wear the same one to a layback barbecue or upscale seaside

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ingredients are back by over 35,000 research publications. You can't fit the amount of nutrients groans does into one daily gummy which is why it comes in a pack. Say 52% off with the code [email protected]. That's code KaraKRAGRUNS.co. Let's talk a little bit about the industry and your break in it. Before your recent

“success is said, a lot of bit parts is sort of the stereotypical sassy gay man and your memoir”

came out last year. You're right, quote, "If you're obviously gay but not hot, your roles are limited, you just play the bitchy gay." Now you have more establishment, Emmy, talk a little bit about this because I assume you get more range now or perhaps not. Somewhat. Yeah, I think I get to audition for things that I wouldn't have been able to audition for before. But I think, you know, at the end of the day, I look like I look and you can't

plug me into just anything. No one's going to cast me as a romantic lead and I don't need to play the romantic, not times those are really boring parts. But, you know, it takes a while to convince other people that you would successfully play something that you haven't successfully played previously. Now you told the Hollywood Reporter back in May that despite winning this ending last year, you hadn't worked all in 2026. Is that still the case? Yeah, I regret saying

that makes me sound so pitiful, but yeah. Yeah, I was talking about the industry, not specifically about me, but yeah, yeah. That is still true, yes. But, well, a lot of friends of mine who are well known has had hard time. Yeah, it's just, you know, all of the, you know, all of these conglomerations that are merging with other conglomerations. I know that that's maybe up in the air

“now, but I just feel like, you know, the latest one, not all of them. But I think that there's just”

a lot less content happening, especially post strike. I think people realize like the streaming method. It isn't really a way to make money. And so they don't, they don't know the way forward yet. And, and so that means just a lot less work. And I'm so grateful that what is big

got a second season in that, hopefully they've written themselves into a corner to bring me back.

But, yeah, it's been, it's been surprisingly dry. Talk a little bit from an actor's point of view. I write a lot about the consolidation from a business point of view and where it's going. But, what is it like for actors like yourself when you're looking at these right now, the big story is the paramount Warner Brothers discovery. The federal

happening. And then on top of that, there's AI that people are talking about, whether it hasn't

“really gone anywhere yet. So far, Tilly Norwood is not killing it. I love her, though. She's so”

great. She's really good. She's so interesting. How do you think about it as an actor? Now, just as a working actor, because a lot of people hear from, you know, the studios or the production companies or what is Netflix think and this and that. How do you, as an actor, think about what's happening? I mean, just because it affects me, you know, rather directly, especially as someone who's, you know, Nicole Kidman is probably okay. Yeah. She's still in the theater and no one will

go with her in those ads if you know it's hard-breaking, but it's a good place like that. I mean,

it's always alone in that they have like, could you not have a friend that you can't take to

you? She doesn't want anybody to distract from her sparkly suit. She's Jewish. She is going to sat and like, not even. Anyway, I went saw the purge all by myself in a movie theater and I thought this is cool. Oh, that's a movie to go to alone actually. Exactly. Yeah. Um, I, so it's, I find it, you know, kind of scary. And when we were striking in 2023, you know, AI was a big part of that

“and I worry because I think what you're saying right now is true. Like, it is very mid-currently.”

I don't know that in the future, people won't, you know, we talk about, we're okay with mid. Right. Right. Right. That people won't accept it. You mean audiences? Yes, exactly. And, and, you know, that's a little scary. And, you know, kind of makes me feel like a, oh, coal miner or something where I'm like, oh, no, my, in this dying industry. Right. Right. And when you look at the mergers, now mergers have happened before, they've happened lots of times. But how does it actually

impact working actors like yourself? What are you all talking about? Well, the big thing is that across the board, no matter if you have one and a word or not, people are saying, there's no money. There's no money. We cannot pay you anything more than the bare minimum that the union says we're allowed to pay you. And a lot of times that bare minimum, you know, you can't support yourself of not because a lot of, like, characters like myself, we're working three, four days a year.

Not, not now. Like, now I have what is bare, what have you, but like, most of the time, three or four days of a year of work is good, is like a great year for just normal actor. And you would often, if you got a commercial or something that the residuals would last you for the entire year and you might not have to have a temp job for that year. And that's just not, this is just not a possibility at all. And on top of that, of course, I know I'm saying stuff

that everybody's heard at million times, but like rent is so high. And we all have to live in these major cities where the rent is even higher than the rent in other cities. And so it just makes

it so that you can't be, you can just never get ahead financially. You can never feel safe financially.

And it's terrifying. I mean, like, even just like pilot season, there used to be a pilot season. And even if you've got a pilot in the pilot, it didn't get picked up. You made enough money from that pilot that you would be able to not work for a long time. And it's like you get six episodes. And the next one, we're going to film in two years. We're used to being 22 episodes every year. Right. Yeah. It's funny that even winning an Emmy doesn't insulate you from this, but I have a

lot of friends who want to meet. And it's they say the exact same thing and you're sort of surprised. One of my friends has just got a regular broadcast show. And she was like, it's 22 episodes. I don't know what to do, right, rather than six, six to eight. And I really treat me sexy. Get yourself a mon order,

“some one of those. I know. I want to. Yeah, you have to vote. You would be good as a quirky.”

Now, I did play a computer tech on law and order criminal intent. Do you do? Okay. Yeah, but I got cast and I was a recurring role, but I got cast in the last season.

Oh, the last one. I shot my first episode. And the next day they announced it was canceled.

Right. Right. Now the alarm orders go to the moon. Now it's true. But we are very happy for Mariska. We are. She's my lover. I know. She's great. I like your whole jam right now. It's happening with her. But you have talking about finding success in actual later in your life. And like 40s, it was a subhead of your memoir, actress of a certain age. My 20 year trail to overnight success, which I loved the title. Talk about that. Talk about what and what advice would you give to someone

and fair. I definitely don't subscribe to the idea that if I did it, you can too. Like, I got lucky. I got so lucky. I'm fully aware that I got lucky. And I often think like if somebody's like, it's not worth it for me anymore. I want to quit. I'm like, I support you. Don't get an apartment with laundry in it. How fun. You know, it is. HVAC. That's the way to go. I know what, you know, think there'll be robots doing that eventually or not. Eventually, but you'll be dead by that

“time to don't worry. Okay. Maybe I'll go get an HVAC. Yeah. So I think my advice would be”

two things. One, don't compare yourself to other actors because it's always, it always ends up

crappy. And also you never know what's happening beyond the deadline article. And to the other thing would be even if you're not getting paid or getting awards, your art is just as valuable as anyone else. Because I think so for so often, I thought like, oh, I wasn't a good actor because that wasn't full time. And I think that's kind of bullshit. Yeah. I know I recently interviewed Mark Marron. He's talked about getting this big great later in life too,

which was a bit podcasting. In fact, he said he didn't think he'd be able to handle the fame if he found it earlier in his life. How do you think about that? I have heard him talk about that.

And you know, he also had to get sober and stuff like that. And I think I could have handled it fine.

I'm pretty bored. But they break you head was an HBO show, somebody somewhere, which is a wonderful show. You play Joel, a compassionate best friend to Bridget Everett's character Sam. Last year, as we noted you won the Emmy for outstanding supporting actor in a comedy series, the show ended in 2024. But talk about that character of Joel and how you envisioned it. Because it's a very touching relationship. I mean, it's a relationship show, obviously,

but that's the key relationship in it. Right. So when I got the role, when I read the pilot, I was so shocked because he talks about being involved in the church. And he talks about

being obsessed with Bridget and about being like not very popular in high school. And

I just kept thinking like, oh, this is just like me, because I grew up in the church. And I was obsessed with actual Bridget. And I remember I took to this class from Marcy Phillips, who's the casting for ABC. And it was a class on how to become a series regular. And she was like,

“you need to find a role that's kind of like you. And I thought like, they don't write roles like me.”

Right. They don't. No, because this is a very specific middle class life in a small Midwest town. It's about grief. It's about chosen family quite a bit. And they don't have fancy jobs or live in big modern houses. Joel drives an old deal at the Saber and dreams of owning a Vitamix. Do you think how does moved away from telling those kind of stories? They used to be quite prevalent if you think. Are you thinking? Yeah. I feel like it's such an anomaly that we even got

that show on the air. Well, Rosanne, there was a bunch before she left behind. Yeah, there was a bunch. There were a bunch. I guess this Rosanne, yeah. And the end like the middle and things like that. That's true. They were all very much family sitcoms. And I don't know of any other show that's so focused on chosen family that this one is. Well, you'd have to say friends, even if you don't like that show. Oh, thank you so much. That is kind of about chosen families. Yeah. It's a bunch of

straight people in New York with a fantastic apartment, but that's different. But it's still let's face it. What this show really did that was different is it cast fuggos, right? It caused people that aren't

“gorgeous. Okay. And I think it was so rare that they did that. And it's the definitely art”

know of it now. I know that for a fact. Yeah. And I think it's just that's kind of there's some, there's like a house, I'm going to say there's a beauty in that. But there is. There's like a representation matters. And it's nice to see people who aren't a double zero and have, you know, yeah. And they're solidly middle class. They're not rich enough. They're not rich enough. They're not, um, yeah. And their problems are relatable. And in the same way that like people, I mean,

people love widows Bay and and Clurbus way more than they love somebody somewhere. But I think in the same way that like seeing this world that is so different than ours is kind of a relief. I think there is also a truth in seeing a world that is attainable. Right. It is actually a really beautiful thing to be able to see and have. Yeah. The show also challenges viewers expectations of what life and the world Midwest can look like, right? We have images of that that are probably

straight people who love him. Um, it's really interesting to, as you say, someone like yourself.

Um, it does challenge our perceptions of what people's lives are like. I mean, I have a cousin who lives in a rural area and goes to church. He's gay. You know what I mean? A very similar kind of yeah. I see. And that's, I was my thing, too, is like, I knew that person so well. Even if I wasn't exactly that person, I kind of got to church every Sunday and I don't live in the Midwest. I live in New York City. But I still, I knew, I don't know, 10 versions of that person from my time growing

up in Texas. And I went to school at a Lutheran College in Sagan, Texas and I knew so many out or like, you know, glass closet out, gay folks, both men and women who found their community in their

church. But I never seen it portrayed in media ever, not even in a novel. And it also, it wasn't playing

it like his Christianity was a joke and it wasn't, it didn't just fall into this idea of like, with the news, paints, Christians as in general, which, you know, they were definitely those people who are sort of right-winged. But it's clear that Joel is a part of a progressive church. They're handing out toiletry kits in one episode. They're blessing animals and another one. These are, this is not the easy depiction of a, of a church that's just, you know,

kill the gaze. Right. Yeah. No, and also challenges the idea that all gay people live outside of cities live in fear and in the closet, which is interesting. I was just this week in Traverse City, visiting Peepoo to Judge and Chassan. Wow. Yeah, it was interesting. Of course, they just had a very terrible thing happen in front of kids. But it was really interesting and I was like, why do you live here? Like, why aren't you in? Where do you go? You know what I mean? It was really,

and they were sitting there. Oh, that's not being an asshole, Cara. Essentially. But it was, you know, they, they love it there because they have kids and it's better for kids and they have family around them. And they definitely deal with, you know, a lot of things they don't love, they are at the same time. They have a lot of support too. And so it's sort of this, you know, one would assume them and you step off a plane and some are like that. You're going to get a very

“different, you know, or if you're fearful as gay person. Right. And I think that I don't think the”

show was trying to say that like, um, there's never like a microaggressions or, or, or, like certainly

misgendering happens all the time. But that happens all the time in New York for Murray. So, um, yeah, yeah, but I do think that because so many, when I would do press for people would be like, tell us about this fantasy, this fantasy of queer people and cancers. And we went to cancers, Bridget's actually from Manhattan, Kansas, and we went there and we met, I mean, you know, we met a lot of, you know, mostly straight folks. But there were like a lot of queer folks that came out,

and you know, of course, they came out specifically for the queer show. But um, they're even like, a shop that's owned there by a trans man. And I guess what I'm trying to say is, that is the case, you know, people live where people live. We'll be back in a minute. Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough, and you don't need to make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. One for sales, another for

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“I want to zero in a little bit to talk about faith in the church because in your memoir you”

write really beautifully about church and growing up in it. It was a place of belonging for you and an escape from bullying you experienced in school even considered becoming a pastor, which was really interesting. You still can, by the way. This is M-e-thing, this workout. It's a hard work. It's a hard work. It's a hard work. It's a hard work. It's a hard work. It's a hard work. It's a hard work. It's a hard work. It's a hard work. It's a hard work.

Although you'd make more money with age-ficed. Your relationship with religion got more complicated as you got older and came out and you no longer tend. Talk a little bit about that because that was a thing of moving part of the book I found. I grew Catholic and I had been in a Catholic church since I was confirmed which I did for my grandmother. But now with this new pope I'm like I kind of like it. It draws you in in a way. Talk a little bit about your views and how you think

about it now. When I was growing up the church was the place that helped poor people specifically poor people. It was all about helping people. It wasn't just poor people. It was about helping

people who were in need. It was a huge part of it. The first and foremost part of it. It wasn't

about rules or saying you're living in a way that is not right. It was about helping people. We had the food bank. We had the clothing bank. There was a rental assistance program there. And so for me

“when I hear a church I think there are so many folks that hear a church and are like”

I don't want to have any part of that. But because I grew up in this slightly progressive church I think of it as community and I think of it as being beautifully sacrificial and helpful and kindness. And so I don't have those negative associations with the church that a lot of people do. And like you said this new pope? Even the last pope was pretty good too. Yeah. And he's a free pope for this. Free pope. American pope making everything cool. But I also feel, you know,

you know, all of these really cool progressive nuns too. And I work, I did after college, I did this, I call that a Christian commune. That's a little tongue and cheek. But where we were actively, you know, boots on the ground, helping folks. And that is the church I choose to believe in. That that that that actively helps people. And is good for the world rather than just this current church that gets all the press that's about like just I don't know, hating on people

just period. I was going to say I was going to list some people, but there's a lot of people. They're focused on Jametel Rico this week. Right. That particular branch of the church. They struggle. It's going to lead you into whatever women's bathrooms. I fascinated by how they're using trans and gender. But that that's it. We're seeing young people return to the church in

ways. My son is started going to church. I never brought him into a church. Wow. What kind of

catholic catholic catholic catholic catholic? Yeah, he's going to Eastern Orthodox now. I'm like, no, we're not doing this. We're not doing this. You know, the food is excellent during the festivals, but no, but he can do what he wants. I have a lot of gold leaf in there. It's pretty. I tell them I go to a service with him, but I think it's community is what he's looking for. And the positive role that

church like communities forever. It's one of the plot points in somebody somewhere, actually,

“but historically we're born out of exclusion from mainstream society. How do you look at it?”

How do you create spaces without asking people to be someone they're not? Well, God, I don't know,

I'm a great question. I don't know if I have a good answer. I think... Well, first of all, I'm not,

the one way I'm really not like Joel is I'm not someone who creates spaces for people. I'm a joiner, not a leader, hardcore. But I do think what I have a gift for is I listen. I listen a lot more than I think most, I was going to say most actors, but I think most people, I think I listen more than most people. And I think that is a gift for creating community is acknowledging the other members of the community. The bar is low. Yeah. Yeah. Are you interested in this push towards the church,

you know, that the belonging the church can provide and creating those spaces? I mean, I get it, like it's all about community. And I think community is absolutely necessary. And I think that I think you just have to be careful that you're finding your community in a space that supports you rather than hurts you. And because I do feel like I could totally fall for a cult. I have to really be. I have to really be. Oh, wow. Okay. I have to really be able to look out for that. I

think all successful sitcoms are about creating a community of and some, and what it was bet you have your group of weirdos just like the office or something like that where there's something about that. And you're right. You're right. It is all about finding family. And that's what,

“that's what I think probably life is a kind of about, right? Yeah. In a lot of ways. So every episode”

we get a question from an outside expert. Here is yours. Hi. I'm Ali Wentworth. And I first met

Jeff Hiller when I cast him in my show nightcap. And he was brilliant. Jeff is the warmest, most insightful, optimistic human being I've ever met. So my question for you, Jeff is, what keeps you up at night? It could be macro, like what's happening around the world. It could be micro, like you have too many mice in your apartment. But what causes Jeff Hiller in Somnia? Mice in my apartment. Yeah. I know. I mean, I think it depends on the night. But I will say,

I sleep pretty well. Yeah. Okay. Pretty good at sleeping. I was at last night. I was up worried about my sister because my sister just had to put her dog down. And I couldn't

“sleep thinking about that. And I think that's probably, I think if we say macro or micro,”

I think I do tend to focus on individuals and people hurting. I will, like, I'm constantly thinking about children in Iran and Palestine. And children in war zones, children or in, I just, I don't know why I'm not worried about the old ladies. I guess I'm worried about them too. But I just think I do think about kids all the time who are just by bad luck of being born in a place that's full of turmoil. I think about that a lot. That is a worthy thing to worry about. That is a worthy

thing to worry about. I mean, but what does worry get you? You got to start doing stuff, right? Well, no. Worries okay. Worries, it's okay to be just worry. Yeah. Yeah. It means you're a lot of

actually. Which is always. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you. Yeah. I sleep well too,

oddly enough. Oh, my god, I'll deal with it tomorrow. Yeah, that is sort of, yeah. I'm always like that asshole. I'm going to sleep now. I recently interviewed the left-emlady Mel Robbins, you know, her left-em. But she has an out. She has let me, which I have to point out to people. She has, they, she doesn't let them. She, that's me. Wait, but do you think that the, are you saying? I think she's saying let them and it's very appealing. It's like, yeah, it's all let it go. But then,

she has a thing that says let me, which is what is my action going to be. I see. You see, it's an out. Because let them be an asshole, but let me take a stick and hit them. We see what I mean. So it's the same thing. You're not really letting them argue. So, and that's really, that's really where you went, huh? Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. That's not where I would go. No, really interesting. What would seek someone else be in? This is just a problem. I'm Carol. I'm Carol. I'm Carol. I'm Carol. You're Carol.

Yeah. Adam Bond. Adam Bond. What we're going to be doing the Adam Bond? Anyway, let's not end on that. Carol is blowing up the world. Because I know, I also want to know,

You really do. They're always sort of looking on the right side of things. It's from you, presumably,

it's also from the writers, obviously, but you get picked for those roles. And I do talk a lot on the show about the need for people to find hope right now because a lot of it can feel overwhelming. So I'd like to end by asking you what, you know, gives you hope right now. This is sort of a controversial

“answer because I think a lot of people don't find hope in this, but I find that the younger generation,”

the folks that I'm interacting with. Every older generation, because like when I'm Gen X and I remember all of the, like, slacker on the cover of time and all that business, so every generation

gets shit from the previous one. But I just keep finding young people who don't want to put

up with people who are hoarding wealth and who are not down with being loose with their language, who are wanting to be respectful of people. And I, I find that to be hopeful for the future. I would agree with young people. I do, I have a lot of kids and two of my older kids are like that. And everyone's like, are you overwhelmed? I'm like, no, because of them, not because of you,

“you know, like, not you, in particular, whoever I'm talking to. I mean, you people 25 to 50”

need to go away and let the people under 25 run everything because they're very, it's a very exciting time for them in a lot of ways, with the way they're voting, the way they're talking about things and the politicians that are attracted to also is really, it's really interesting. It's giving everyone else the, you know, the rash, but if I find it very hopeful in some ways. Me too. Yeah, absolutely. Anyway, keep doing your wonderful characters. I'm excited for Dale to have a big role.

And they do. And what's your name, Dale? Also Dale, right? Yeah, Dale Dickies. She plays, puts her characters in the rosemary, rosemary, which is a great name, by the way. But I hope you two

“have a spin-off. That's my whole goal. It's the two of you have a spin-off and some eye. I think you”

get on a boat and start like wander to another island in some space. Start our own island. Start your own island. She'll leave it all following me. Toys, you know, island, which were, in fact, all the gay characters and all those kids, things, if you think. Sure, I saw that little swoop. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. But good luck with next season. And thank you. Amazing job. Thank you.

Today's show is produced by Michelle Aloy, Catherine Millsop, Madeleine Leplant, Dooby, Meghan Bernie, and Kaylin Lynch. The shot her way is voxmedia's executive producer of podcast. Special thanks to Catherine Barnard, Dave Shaw, and Julia Sharp Levine. Our engineers are Fernando Aruda and Rekwanda and our theme music is by Tracodemics. If you're already following this show, you're sleeping well. If not, you're eating Taco Bell

and you're okay with mid. Go wherever you listen to podcast search for on with Keroswisher and hit follow. Thanks for listening to on with Keroswisher from podium media, New York Magazine, the voxmedia podcast network, and us will be back on Thursday with more. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other.

That's where Odu comes in, and all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing,

all in one powerful platform, no messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs and best of all,

no spreadsheets. Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odio.com/box. That's odio.com/box.