Alanis Morissette's "You Oughta Know"

♪ Did you forget about me ♪

♪ Mr. Do, please sedate ♪

“♪ I hate to bug you in the middle of dirt ♪”

♪ It was a slap in the-- ♪ - Duplicity, Mr. Do, please sedate. I don't think I'd ever heard that word before. Like, you know, I'm not pleased to do what it meant. - Oh, yeah. - You know, I've been in life,

like, saying, I think a pop music. - The word duplicity does not show up in tag team. Whoop, there it is. It is shut up. Last year, today, we're talking about a breakup

anthem from one of the best selling albums ever. This album has sold something like 33 million copies and it's been 12 weeks at number one on the charts. What's even crazier is that the artist, a 21-year-old Canadian cigarette songwriter,

was virtually unknown before she blew up. - That's right, Duile, and today, we're going to dig into the magic of the song that introduced her to the world. On the surface, it's just a pop rock tune.

But when you listen closer, this song has elements of electronic, punk, funk, and even alpine, swiss, folk music. We're going to be getting into all that in the stamps. We'll also talk about what happened in that movie theater. We're talking one song, and that song is

"You Want to Know" by Elana Smorset. ♪ Do you love me? ♪ ♪ All the Christ's eyes ♪ ♪ We're gonna chip in your name ♪ ♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ♪

♪ I don't know ♪ Hey, one song listeners, if you love our show, you should check out Trap at all. The podcast where technology meets culture. - Each episode, Tropical Host and Founder

Dan Rinsee digs into the strategy behind the media and technology that drives our attention. You'll hear a tropical explore topics like YouTube's growing influence in music and entertainment.

The never ending saga about TikTok's future

and how AI is shaping the future. - Media is one of the first industries to get disrupted by the tech. It's travel's job to keep you ahead of the latest trends. You can listen to Trap at all wherever you get your podcast.

That's Trap at all, TRAP, ITAL. But what I want to do is not to get a lot of students. The master-by-trap, Trap, Trap, is soft, and the internet. So it's a master-by-trap. - I'm saying, you can say that you're a hero.

- You're a master-by-trap, right? But you don't understand. - Egal, it's a famous trick. It's a very simple way to do this. And if you then work, you'll be able to do it.

- That's right. - Safe. - This way. - You're a master-by-trap. - Now, let's try it out. - I'm back to write it, director. And sometimes, luxuries, anger, management, specialist, the all-eriddle.

- And I'm producer, DJ, songwriter, and music, collegeist, luxury, aka the guy who whispers or sometimes shouts, interpolation. - And this is one song. - The show where we break down the stems and stories

behind iconic songs across genres, and tell you why they deserve one more listen. - You hear these songs?

Like, you've never heard them before,

and you can watch one song on YouTube while you're there, please like and subscribe. - All right, the all-eriddle, when was the first time you heard you out of now?

“- I think like everybody else, I probably”

saw it on MTV, you know, maybe heard it on the radio. But, you know, the first time I ever saw Atlantis, and this was way before jagged a little pill. She was a kid actor on one of my favorite Nickelodeon shows growing up, I used to love you can't do that on television.

- Oh, really? - The show that gave us green slime. - Did you know that I don't know? - I don't know. - I don't know. - The show that gave us green slime, if you didn't know it.

- This is the goat, as far as I'm concerned as far as that cat. - I don't know. - But it's, yeah, I look, I'm dating myself because this show was on Nickelodeon in like the early '80s.

But I used to love it. It was basically a kids version of Saturday Night Live. And why don't we show a clip? Here's a clip of, you can't do that. I'm telling you, with a very young Atlantis.

- Did you give me a burger from across the street to get 'em off your back? - No, I can't not. I gave my bar spurger to get it off my back. I guess we won't be hearing from him anymore.

- Maybe not the greatest moment that you can't do that on television history. But it was a very funny show.

They were always just hanging out, doing kids stuff,

doing kids jokes. If you set the word water, they dump water on you. And if you said, I don't know, they dump green slime on you and the green slime has stayed on Nickelodeon ever since. - I was vaguely aware of this show.

It wasn't quite my demographic. I mean, at the time it came out, I was a little bit older than you, my friend. But when you heard Atlantis more said, and you ought to know on the radio,

did you connect to the same Atlantis right away? - And definitely not, I definitely did not think, oh, that's Atlantis, you can't do that on television. This video though, and this saw they were so, they were just huge hits at the time.

“And I think they kind of remain a quintessential snapshot”

of the '90s and Atlantis, at that time, like her hair wasn't teased. You know what I mean? She was wearing a t-shirt long before Billie Eilish made that cool. It was just everything was completely dressed down.

I guess you could see it was like a little grunge, but it also just felt like the slacker '90s. Like there was no heart-baricuda levels of style. - Yeah, that's nice music video. - Listen, I think one thing that's really interesting

about investigating this song is that it really is a snapshot of 1995,

Musically, because it is sort of post-scrunge,

visually she's able to take advantage of the fact

“that not take advantage in a sort of transatlantic way.”

But we're naturally coming into an era where we've just had grunge. We have sort of early proto-electronica also. This is a moment where we're starting to, because that's an element of this song and this record,

that can easily be forgotten, as much as,

because we think of her powerful vocals and performance

and maybe the band and the early footage with like Taylor Hawkins on drums. They're a rock in band, but in the recording, there's like, there are drum loops and drum machines. So this is sort of like akin to what early garbage.

♪ I'm only happy when it rains ♪ ♪ I'm only happy when it's cold when it rains ♪ - There's some other bands. - Absolutely. - I got up to Shirley Manson, one of my favorites. Let's offer, early nineties, we had like EMF

and like unbelievable. ♪ You're unbelievable ♪ ♪ I'm so glad ♪ ♪ I'm so glad ♪ Right, Jesus, Jones, Stereo and C's.

There's this new experimentation mixing electronic beats and rock guitars and in the pop song format. So when this record comes out, when this song comes out, it's right in the pocket of that.

- It also had just a killer video. Let's take a quick look at the music video for you ought to know. ♪ You gather my name ♪ ♪ And if she had your baby ♪

♪ I'm sure she may burn me ♪ - That's so mad, mother of her. - All those ours are sensitive. She's a very distinct mother of her. - Her, her, her, her, her.

- Well, you're a pirate, yes. I forgot to add to the genre blend. There's a little pirate in there. This is the electronic on the punk funk. - By the way, we're gonna get into this,

but the music in the video is slightly different than the music in the song. That's right, we're gonna talk about how there's a couple of different mixes, but in brief, if you buy the record jagged little pill,

song number three is you ought to know the kind of iconic canonical version, but there's a second mix, which up until COVID basically, the video version used instead of a video version.

So these all of these decades of knowing the song,

I've always a little bit confused

about why are there two different versions. We'll talk about that a little bit later on. - Absolutely. - What about you, Luxury?

“When was the first time you heard you ought to know?”

- I remember I was working at a job I had during school, during college. I was working at this company, and it was, I think, pumping out of the radios that all the programmers were listening to.

I was working at this early internet company basically, in Washington, DC, and when I heard it, it popped off the radio in a way that like, I can sort of remember the pull the car over a moment the way the song is so good that you're like,

"What is this?" And certainly the previous version would've been nervous, and I was like, "Teens beer." I remember hearing that song and being like, "Whoa, pull that car over."

Hold a car over a moment, crank it up. - I'd say that's not a thing anymore. - I feel like I can totally relate to that. I remember the very first time I heard nothing but a G thing. It was, I know exactly where I was driving.

- Right. - And I heard that I was like, "Well, this sounds like nothing I've ever heard before." And I remember, I didn't pull the car over. I think I was actually getting right across some train tracks.

- Sometimes it's a metaphorical pulling up the car, but it's the same thing that you got to stop what you're doing. - Yes.

- And just pay full attention to this incredible song.

- That's a good point, that is a thing that used to be a thing. There's no longer a thing. - I feel like because now you get things from the algorithm. And I don't know, it's just not the same. It's when you know that everybody is listening

to the radio hearing the same thing at the same time. - That's a good point. It felt important, maybe for some reason. - It feels important to feel truly aired. - Yeah, share it.

- And we're in the show Sam Sanders has said, like, you know, we're losing monoculture. And we definitely are because I can totally remember where I was when I heard certain songs for the first time on the radio.

“- I think monoculture is Sam's interpolation, isn't it?”

It's a great word for him to own. Like Bridey Brown with Vulnerability. - I always think of her. - I do that word. - I do that word.

- I do that word. - You should be chunky, but I didn't say that. - You have to bring it back, chunky. - I love that though, a pull over the car moment. And why do you think it was?

What about this song made you want to pull the car? - Well, personally, it was what I liked about the music. I was listening to at the time. It was bringing in elements of, like I heard without knowing at the time that there was a connection

to the span, which we were going into. I heard the Red Hot Chili Peppers and the James Addiction, and the post-grunge, grunge elements. Some of them were sonic, like guitar. Some of them were dynamic.

Like the arrangement was like quiet loud. Like when you talked about with the guitar. - Absolutely. - That was huge enough, but then add another 99% for this insanely good vocal.

The best one of my favorite vocals, literally delivery, the emotions there, the rawness. - That's a melody, she has a great voice. - That's a good voice. - It's a different voice, it's a song.

You know, it reminds me of maybe the first time people heard Mama Cass or Janice Joplin. You know, certain women just explode on the scene and their voices so unique that it immediately becomes that thing that you can like,

doing an impression on them as a solo unique. - Yeah, she does have some distinctive mannerisms in ways of hitting certain like sounds or vowels or consonants, actually, in certain cases. We're going to talk about that when we get to her isolated

Vocals a little bit later.

- Well, yeah, also, I feel like we heard her emotion, right?

“Like, there was a lot of emotion in this song.”

- There's an authenticity that's hard to like pin down. That word does a lot of lifting and it's hard. It doesn't really get to the heart of things. It's like saying the word cool. What does that mean?

But there's an authenticity that you can't necessarily put your finger on, but you know she means it. You know, this is so real. - And it's so relatable, I mean, like, you know, I was just saying it.

- I was just saying it. - Like, this is like, you know, a feminist anthem, but I feel like anybody who's ever felt jilted can relate to it. - I was literally... - They all feel whatever.

- You're speaking my mind, my friend. That was exactly what I was gonna say. It transcends that it's another person. It transcends that other person happens to be female. Like, it's just like, this is my story too.

I'm hearing this song and I can relate to it. - Good, I actually can't relate to it in one sense

because I've never been dumped.

I was never dumped. - Okay. - And here's the fun. - Quite the fun. - You're the fun friend? - Well, no, it's not a, here's where it is where it's going.

- It is where it's going. - It's a good flex. - When I met my wife, we laugh because she's never been dumped. - Okay. - We were like, neither of us has ever been dumped. So, like, clearly, one of us is going to lose eventually.

- Right. - Like, right. - Maybe in death. - If you're part of dies, you're effectively dumped. - It's like the idea, like, one of you married up, but which of you married up.

- I know, I was just like, "Hey, is it?" - Babe, one of us, who's getting better? - Who's getting better? - Who's getting better? - Stroke broken. - Who's gonna get the better deal here?

- It's been 17 years of either one of us has set this face. - By contrast, I have been broken up with and I'm going to list all of those words right now. (laughing) I had just been dumped.

You're actually making me remember. There was a major dumpage that had happened to be dumped. - Just moments earlier when this song came out, because it was not only a dumpage, it was a double dumpage, where it's like the girl that I had been seeing,

started to date my best friend. - Oh. - So, I lost both of those people in one moment. It was a double dump. - I was sorry, my friend. - You're just bringing back an old memory.

(laughing) - So, (beep) (laughing) - But that is her name. - Oh, my gosh.

- I just believed that out. (laughing) - I might use it. - Let's back up a bit. We've gone really far of that direction,

but I think we were both surprised to learn that prior to Jaguar Little Pill, Atlantis had a totally different sound in the early '90s. At the time, she was entertained, she was signed to MCA, and she released two albums for MCA.

Let's watch the video for one of her early singles. Here's two hot. (upbeat music) ♪ I'll do hot, stay up and do cold ♪ ♪ You may get a shout to hot dough ♪

♪ Yeah, I'll do hot, stay up and do cold ♪ ♪ Yeah, I'll do hot, stay up and do cold ♪ - I love this song because I love Paula Abdul. - I know it's for you. - I love Taylor. - I love Taylor.

- It does feel very straight up. (upbeat music) ♪ Stay up now, tell me be a really wanna love me ♪ ♪ For that love ♪ - It's very Paula Abdul meets Taylor Dane,

meets Bobby Brown, maybe. - For those listening, and you really shouldn't just listen,

“you should really watch this on YouTube.”

But for those listening, it styled like Paula Abdul, it's black and white. She's got like the checkerboard, you know, shirt tight around her waist. - It is straight up straight up.

- It's straight up straight up not tell. - I never present. - Yeah, that was, that was the song. - That was actually a dicknight song. - It was dance part.

What did you say that would love to do like a freestyle episode? Like a song that, you know, 'cause that's such a fun genre. I feel like, whether it's freestyle or sort of like early 90s dance pop. - Yeah, definitely a genre that I feel like is kind of left

in the past, but like, there's some gyms in there.

- I'm always, I'm always thinking about letting music play.

Like one, so we have Shannon. (upbeat music) Gotta get some one song, Shannon. - Let's listen to the show. These albums that you did for FCA were not a commercial success.

And by 1992, Lannis was no longer satisfied during the dance pop thing. She was entering her early 20s and her songwriting was moving in a more introspective direction. FCA did not like that at all, so they dropped her.

And this ends up being a blessing in disguise because if that didn't happen, she might not have packed up her bags and moved to Los Angeles. - So just for those of our listeners who aren't aware of how the songwriting process often works in pop circles.

When I moved to LA, I was in a publishing deal, which meant that I was a track person that would be put in a room with a top liner, which is a lyrics and melody specialists. And the two of us would write songs together.

This was my career for about four years. So what Lannis is doing in this moment is exactly that. She has a publishing deal, but no record deal. So there's a publisher who's motivated to have her write songs that they can financially benefit from

when she gets a record deal. And she is in room after room after room, writing song after song and really honing her craft. She talks about that she would write like dozens of songs like she would have a session in the morning

in another session in the afternoon, seven days a week, kind of a work of hollock, but really honing her craft and getting good at writing songs quickly,

“which is really important because when she meets”

one of our unsung heroes of this show, which we will now talk about, it's Glenn Ballard in Los Angeles, the two of them click as a writing duo in these circumstances of just sitting in a room

Trying to get a song out with Anthony Thaud as something.

- I'm just curious 'cause I don't know.

Are they writing, I mean, obviously they're writing songs that she would like to sing, but are they writing songs for other people? - That's an important distinction, you're right. There are circumstances where sometimes you're writing

just to get the song out and who knows who will cut it. Maybe it's for another artist you hope to get it cut

“by a big artist, 'cause that's how you make money,”

but then there are circumstances where there are artists that are themselves writing for other people potentially. This song feels like a me song, I'll keep it for myself. I think in this circumstance is here with Glenn Ballard and Elana Smorset,

they're writing ostensibly for Elana's. Like these are really personal songs, I don't know that there's any thoughts that they'd be trying to, they try to have it cut by a big pop star of the day. - Yeah.

- By a Paula Abduel for it. So a little bit more about Glenn Ballard, we've actually mentioned it before on the show. If you go back to our Michael Jackson Billy Gene episode, one of the songs that didn't make thriller

was a song that Glenn Ballard had written, called Nightline. He was one of Quincy Jones's stable of in-house writers. He worked for Quest. So he wrote a bunch of hits, including "Man in the Mirror"

for Michael Jackson. He wrote Wilson Phillips Hold on. He actually wrote "Four Paul Abduel." Her name has come up three times already, it's just six minutes of this episode.

“So they were put together by a publishing company,”

they clicked, and they wrote together starting in early 1994. As Glenn Ballard tells the story,

the first song was all I really want.

They wrote it and recorded it all in one day, finished at that night, recorded it, played it for the publisher of the next day who liked it. And that was the pattern that they, for the rest of the year, they would get together

and just have these really intense conversations about life, which would turn into lyrics. And then Glenn would go off and work up the music while Alana's would focus on the lyrics and melody, record the song, move on to the next day,

20 songs in 20 days across a few months. So they would meet at his like in Sino-based home studio, which, by the way, in 1994, this is a new ability that you don't have to write down in the next month's studio. Basically, the songwriting process

is starting to become potentially also the recording process. Because one thing that's really interesting about Jagged Little Pill is that it's mostly the demos they made in his home studio in in Sino. And in 1994, we, we take this for granted.

We're so taken for granted.

But it was--

“This is the whole album's in their closet.”

He had an ADAT machine, which is a precursor, not even a laptop. This was sort of earlier digital recording technology. And because he also happened to be simultaneously a guitar player and songwriter, but he was interested in early electronics. Well, talk about it when we get to the sims,

but he's using a Linn 900 and he's using loops. So you have the ability with that two people can make an entire song and entire album, not to mention a hit record. There were overdubs, we'll get into that a little later. But for the most part, this record was made

by two people in a garage with an engineer for some overdubs in Sino, California, in 1994. And in, you know, it feels personal and homemade, so to speak. And what I thought was really interesting is that at some point, she left Los Angeles

and went back to Canada. And he was like, oh, I guess that's the end of this relationship. But then when she came back, he was like, oh, man, she's only gotten better. Yeah, you know, like there's so much like mutual love

at respect between these two artists. 100% - I've got to love their relationship. And again, going back to my experience in the room, I know the feeling of sometimes you get connected with somebody and you really have something.

It's a combination of maybe your musical taste, but also just the rhythm and pace of how you work and how you think and how vulnerable one person can allow the other person to feel. Because it's a very vulnerable thing

to write music together, to have something that isn't quite right yet. And maybe the other person, if you sense that they're impatient, you know what I mean, that can really put a damper on that side. - Oh, absolutely. - Relationship.

- Yeah, I feel like this is almost like the opposite of an impatient relationship. But then, wasn't coming in with some big agenda or trying to shape her and do anything. So, Lannas had the freedom, you know?

She had the freedom to write about whatever it was on her mind. And you can hear all that freedom on jagged little pill. It sounds like hand in my pocket. ♪ On hand in my pocket ♪ ♪ And the others give it a high five ♪

- You learned? ♪ We learned, we learned, we learned, you learned ♪ - Yeah, one of my absolute favorites, head over feet. ♪ We'll be along the fight for, head over feet ♪ - And of course, ironic, let's watch a bit of that iconic,

ironic music video. (laughs) ♪ It's like radio ♪ ♪ Now you're ready, yeah, it's a free ride ♪ - Ah, so good, she's so good.

She is so good. She's such a good artist. It's such a good record. Everything about her is great. I'm like her.

We like talking about people who are great. - I just am so excited. (laughs) I get so into this, yeah. - Those crazys, I didn't even know how much more popular

Ironic has stayed.

It's actually her most stream song. - How ironic. - More than you, don't you think? - Yeah, I do, if you think. - No, but think about it, like if you were alive in the 90s, you would assume you ought to know

way out ahead, but ironic has twice the streams. - Yeah. - It's crazy, it's crazy.

“- But I think that's because people come to it.”

And obviously there's always been that debate

about are these things really ironic or do they just suck? - I think it's a little easier to sing, too. You ought to know it's really hard to sing. It's hard to like belt and hit those notes.

- Yeah. - And you just can't get that emotion, so it's like, why try? But with ironic, that's the, that's the crowd singing. - Yeah, that's the stadium sing along.

- Yeah, this record, I think. - I think you're right. - So in that music video, it's a couple of Atlantis's - Atlanta, I think we can call it. - Atlantis's.

- Atlantis's, you know, there's one driving, there's one in the back seat being whimsical. - Yeah. - But they're all butts, they like each other. - Oh, hang in there.

- It likes all of her different selves. - I don't know where she's driving, but that looks like Canada to me. I think Canada, I think. - Bridget.

- It looks very cool. - Bridget road. - You know what it's funny?

“You're making me think that there's another element”

to her, like the genre blend. Like she has this sort of iconic beat. Like her hair is disabled and the oversized clothes. But there's definitely a post-grunge and musically.

- Oh, she has like almost like dreadlocks too. - There's a pearl jam-iness to the music, I would say. - And in 1995, like that was a few years earlier, it's still happening. There's still a pearl jam right now,

but my point is is that pop music tends to absorb other elements that were once more underground. And by 1995, we are fully absorbed all the urbanism, all the electronic isms, even the punk funk isms of like the chili powder.

- We were talking about this. - And pearl jam-iness. - And relation to this, episode.

And yes, I think the pop music always looks for a co-sign

from the underground, like this is 1995. This is the same year the Mariah Carey does a song with Olderdy Bastard, and that's like getting a sign off for Mootec last time. She's going to hip hop for a co-sign.

I feel like Lannis is going to like... - DeVision and alternative rock. So like this song could have been produced by Butch Big. You know what I mean? Like, you know, who's working with garbage?

- And they're exactly the same time making a very similar kind of sound. It should be said with drum loops and then rock guitars. - Absolutely. - So there's something really interesting about that absorption.

And I don't necessarily, I'm not, I don't know that it was like strategic or a plan. I think it's a very, very chill band. - Lannis, she was probably just into that music. - I think very much so, yeah.

- And she tried, she had done the dance pop thing in her teens and she wanted to do something more authentic, more real. And this is the 90s. So there's a lot of, there's a lot of growling in the 90s. There's a lot of, you know, like, you know, like,

“you know, like, you know, that's what people wanted to hear.”

- But, and also the reason why Nirvana and Pearl Jam and these Grunge bands were so important is 'cause they really did unlock this other available lane of vulnerability and an aggressive music. And so that's another kind of opportunity

that Lannis is like, this is what I want to be doing right now. And I think the writing process from L accounts just unfolded very naturally without any sort of, like, record industry, like strategy. There was a record label to speak of.

- Right. - But this was something that she was naturally drawn to. Or, or I should say, it just came out of her in that way that maybe happened to coincide with what this postgrunge sounded like. - This is also the 90s.

And the 90s is just like, it was such a good time to release really big albums.

Like, I think about Green Day, Duky, Nirvana's never mind.

Like, they're just some really big albums during this period and Jack Little Pill is easily one of the biggest. - Yeah, and it's the end of that chapter, probably in human history, 'cause the monoculture is coming to a close

with the younger ones. - It's like, just a couple years away, yeah. - Yeah, about five years away from the end. But also, Lannis is part of, like, this generation of female artists, and specifically, like,

alternative rock and folk, that they are expressing themselves completely honesty, there's like another level of honesty. And I love it because it's like, artist-like PJ Harvey. ♪ Baby, baby, baby, baby ♪

♪ Anything ♪ - And Tori Amas. ♪ There was a conflate there ♪ - It's a day I need to Franco. ♪ No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no ♪

- Even Tracy Chapman, I would argue. ♪ You got a fast car ♪ ♪ I want to get to money ♪ - Like, these are artists that are, you know, sort of walking so that Lannis can mainstream that sound

and experience all the success. And because of her success, then you have the success of like a garbage, or like an Avera Levine. I'm gonna say Billie Eilish again because again, this is sort of that first lady who is able to just get out

there and just a t-shirt and some comfortable pants and rock out two millions. I mean, like, she's on tour for a long time, like millions of people all over the world coming out to see her and this amazing band perform.

All right, we're gonna take a quick break, but when we get back, we're gonna hear Lannis's raw, isolated vocals. We're going to hear the original dim on,

Excited about that.

And we're gonna find out how two of the red-hot chili peppers

“were the missing links, the song needed.”

When we get back. (dramatic music) - All right, welcome back to one song. So before we get into the stems, we would like to share with you the one song nation, the demo.

(laughs) So bear in mind as you listen to this, that part of the song, we're going to give you a new song, and we're going to give you a new song, and we're going to give you a new song,