AI Panic: Dario’s Warning, Trump’s Dismissal, and OpenAI’s IPO Delay

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great with a dedicated bite to me slow when it work as busy C-Terms. (upbeat music) - I'm Inaigarten. I have a new podcast called Happy Hour With Aina.

Each week, I'm inviting a really interesting guest

to join me for a drink and a fun conversation at my kitchen table in New York City. I'll be getting personal with actors, chefs, comedians, musicians, and writers I admire. So grab a snack, pull up a chair, and join us.

You can watch by searching for a happy hour with Aina on YouTube or listen wherever you get your podcasts. Don't we only have more fun? - You have this weird shadow on your face. - Oh, I know, 'cause I'm waiting for it.

I'm just getting something. Let's get her in you, Scott. - We don't need shadows for that. (upbeat music) - Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine

and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Kara Swisher. - And I'm Scott Kalloway. - Scott, I just did an review just to our law for your side piece.

Or you're the hero side piece, really, I think.

“I think that's how I'm going to characterize it now.”

- Tell us about you. You're going to be able to get a better name. - For a book, for a book. - Oh yeah. - Yeah, it's called "I Disagree"

and it's about getting a long, better, even in disagreement. - This is good. - Do often, actually. - Our book would so be called.

- And I was right by camera pressure. - No, no. - You mean, let's rake Scott over the calls for something stupid you said off mic, that my friends are giving me a hard time on?

- Well, why do you keep saying stupid things off mic, on mic? - Stupid is, stupid does, whatever force computes to say. - But Scott, seriously, here's how my day went. - Okay.

- This week, I think I was at a kid thing. Phone rings, mayor of San Francisco. - Uh oh. - Hi. - Sorry, let me just apologize up front.

- Girl, what the fuck? Essentially, he doesn't say talk like that, 'cause Daniel Lurries, the nicest person on the planet. - Yes. - And he's like, hey, Scott said something.

I said, I fucking saw it. He took one block, he took a, he went on the worst block of San Francisco and then decided all of San Francisco's like that. And I said, I heard that fucker.

And he goes, no, no, I see he has a point of view, but we've been working like, he was so... - He was so... - And I was like, don't be reasonable for that asshole. But then I gave him your phone number

and he did he call you, he called you. - So, just some context for the listeners. I was in San Francisco for our Odo, whatever it was we were doing. And I love the Austin proper in Austin, and so I stayed at the San Francisco proper,

which I would describe as dark and dingy, but expensive. And I love San Francisco. I have huge affection for it.

“I think physically it's the most beautiful city”

in the union and my sister and I, I said, let's walk to Café Zunini. I've been there in 25 years. I love that restaurant. We walked, I guess it's about a mile.

When I looked it up, I'm absolutely nice to walk. And quite frankly, it just felt very, very ugly, very dystopian in terms of the number homeless, number of people struggling. And I went on the next day on the podcast,

and I said, look, I said, San Francisco has still has real problems. And I said, I saw hundreds of homeless. And of course, it got clipped, San Francisco still socks, and my sister to her credit, who is more center-right

than I am center-left said, it's gotten better. And she said, we're in a really bad part of town right now. Anyways, I said this, the clip goes viral, because people understandably got offended and pushed back on, you know, douchebag from New York and London,

shit posting San Francisco with a misrepresented sample. And I get a four and five call,

which I never answer if it's unidentified,

but sometimes I pick it up. And I hear Scott, it's Mayor Lourry, oh fuck. I gave him your number, I totally did. I thought for a second, I thought, no, I would give it to him. Sure, Mayor Lourry.

Anyways, he was, the guy could have been more thoughtful. He was like, he wasn't offensive or contradictory. He said, he wanted to know exactly where I walked,

And we had a very thoughtful conversation around the homeless issue,

which every city official will tell you is the most intractable, difficult issue to face. And I asked him to just send me some stats on San Francisco, 'cause he said it is getting better, but just some stats.

Car break-ins, 22 year lows, down 83% between 2017 and 2025. Unsheltered homelessness at lowest level in 15 years. With the fewest encampments on our streets since the city started counting in 2019,

the reset center where law enforcement can bring individuals for using drugs and public is referring 39% of admitted individuals to some form of services, for example, treatment recovery shelter, and getting cops back on the street in under five minutes.

“I think of this as, I mean, first of all,”

this guy is impossible not to like. But I think this is an example of good governance at a state and local level. And what's plagued us is all of these guys and gals see themselves in the next president

and start talking about Israel or start talking about Trump. No, just to what Mayor Luri does and says, the biggest problem right now is crime and homelessness. And I'm gonna attack that, and I'm not gonna offend the other half

by being an ideal log. I'm just gonna focus on operations and being the executive I was elected to be. - Yeah, for those of you who don't know, he had a background with a foundation.

It's very similar to Robin Hood Foundation in San Francisco that he was working on these issues. So he's very familiar with them. The other thing he's been helped in the way other mayors weren't by a spring court ruling

that allowed people to stop the encampments. That was blocked for many, many years so you couldn't do anything. You got sucked up into all these sort of homeless legal industrial complex that stopped you from doing that.

He's improved it a lot and it's because of a wide range of things. But he really is an ideal mayor for the moment in terms of solving things and he has a very even-handed. You know, there'll be controversy around him

as he pushing this as he doing that and everything else because it's a very difficult city to govern. But I appreciate that you talked to him. I was right. - Well, I want to be clear.

It's not fair of me to take 24 hours in an isolated area and make a generalization about San Francisco and you live there.

“And so your senses and I think you just answer my question.”

Your senses, things are distinctly better. - Yes, distinctly. So anyway, I appreciate it. I'm glad that you next time you stay at my house, which is beautiful and Louis will make you pay a kick.

I want to be able to call someone in the elephant about room service and I want to walk around there. I'm just not, I'm not a good house guy. - No, you can yell at Louis. Louis will pretend that it's a hotel.

It's a beautiful house. I have an beautiful section where there are not homeless people. - Now I'm in your house. You have a beautiful home. - Anyway, thank you for talking to him.

- I keep thinking I'm going to like run into Tracy Chapman in the hallway. - She's there, she's near by. - I don't know why. I imagine you being very good friends with her.

- I know her. I know her. I don't know her well. I think she's still in San Francisco. - Yeah, she lives around the corner.

- Yeah, she lives really close to me. Anyway, let's go on for what we're doing.

First, Donald Trump is dismissing AI concerns.

This is the story Scott. We really have to talk about this. Saying any efforts to limit the technology or part of a sick conspiracy against AI and data centers were part of a sick conspiracy Scott.

According to Trump, the only control or guardrails that AI needs is a strong and smart, high IQ president and the USA has that in spades. This comes after Anthropics CEO Darryu Modi published an essay over the weekend calling

on the AI industry to slow the pace of development. He wants independent evaluators to review company safety practices and urgent global effort, including China to create standards and limits. And a rare and convenient show of unity

both Sam Altman of Open Anne, Elon Musk of Grock, are backing Darryu's call for a slowdown. Darryu also spoke out on the face of the nation about wanting the government to be involved in all of this, let's listen.

- Anthropics and I would hope other companies have done everything we can to try to have legitimate oversight mechanisms.

“I think the government and the public need to have a stake.”

And this is why we've supported regulation of the technology. Regulation constrains the private companies. Regulation allows the public and its elected representatives to have a say and limits what the private companies can do. - So will the government get involved?

Let's listen to what Speaker Mike Johnson said on Meet the Press. - I think we've got to have a meaningful regulation that does not smother American innovation. Now the how to solve that equation, no one knows yet.

We're not gonna rush in and pass a piece of legislation that would do harm to the country and put China as an edge. And so we've got to do this carefully, of course. We vote on that tomorrow if we had the solution

and I'll call everybody into session any day, but we have to make sure we're doing it the right way.

I think the first step is to have a meeting

of all the platform providers. I've talked to the president about this and others.

I think we need to do it quickly. - Of course they've been meeting with them for months. They were all the inaugural Mike anyway. And they've been meeting tons. A lot of people are wondering what's called for the slowdown.

Now did they see something or is it just money? David Sachs who has Trump's guru who's been pushing just sort of wild west kind of policies posted. Stop pretending the motivation is to slow down is purely altruistic noting they want to slow down open source.

In this case, I agree with David Sachs, although I think he's been a menace because he's not allowed any reasonable legislation to go through in video CEO, Johnson Wong responded to AF years last week

saying what better way to create a demand than to create a problem will get to open and not going public until next year, which we have said many times. But talk a little bit about this

'cause there's a lot happening here and suddenly all at once, you know, spurred by that anthropic researcher who said it's gonna kill us,

“which I think dot everybody's attention.”

- Well, speaker Johnson's response to this, what feels like existential issue,

was basically to send out a save the date,

to say that we should meet about it and to say that if there was anything that reasonably cut, you know, the very fine or thread the very fine needle of not wanting to get in the way of innovation

and create shareholder value and I can have a growth, which is key to an economy at the same time recognizing the externalities, which is, by the way, is attention we have dealt with for centuries with respect to economic progress versus,

not capturing too many games to shareholders and outsourcing all the problems to the public. That at the end of the day other than keeping the nation safe is what governments do, through thoughtful legislation and local officials.

Do they make that gavel for a man or a leader? Governor Newsom has passed 12 laws attempting to regulate AI. In China, they have laws that say no bot can pretend to be a person for longer than a certain amount of time because they realized in their nation and other nations,

“adults and kids were falling in love with Cersei Lannister.”

They have certain hours that kids cannot use AI. They have all sorts of limits around how AI can be used for information now granted. They're using it for control, right? But they have a lot of regulation and what they--

No, they understand the dangers. They understand the threat. And what do you know, 75% of the Chinese populists optimistic about AI? And we haven't done anything right now

America is engaging in an experiment. It's a following.

We have never in the history of the modern economy

had a trillion dollar industry that is totally unregulated. Totally unregulated. And like he's like, we'll get to it. But it's been 20 years, Mike, in case you're interested in, we've seen the damage done.

Let me just pause at something. One of the things I wrote to a pretty prominent technologist in the Seria, and they said, I was trying to compare it to nuclear proliferation, right? This is a very similar kind of thing.

It should be global. I've been pushing for global standards for years and years with both Democrats and Republicans. And he said, if this was back then, Truman would have nationalized AI at this point.

That's an interesting point. I know. And this was someone who does not believe in a lot of government thing, he goes, we're at the, it needs to be nationalized. Now, Donald Trump saying any efforts are part of a sick

conspiracy, data centers, like do nothing. Is politically, this is like not a good idea, I think. And especially since he's utterly incompetent, he is not the person who is high IQ that can handle. As he is someone that gets bought and paid for by the technology

industry, talk a little bit about the feeling also on the flip side that it's all these companies trying to zone out open source by solidifying. Does they can, if the, if the government passes regulations, they can pay for them as opposed to small startups and things

like that. There's just so much here.

The first is, I'm going to bring a name here.

“Diane Whipple, do you remember that name?”

I don't, but go for it. 33 of former All-American lacrosse player. And in January, 2001, about 25 years ago, she was Maldadath in the hallway of her Pacific Heights building by two Krasa Canario dogs.

Do you remember this? Yes, I lived there then. It was terrifying. Yep. And crazy neighbors with a crazy dog, yeah.

And the neighbors were prosecuted. One is still in jail when died in jail. Because the law decided, if you have these agents, I.E. vicious dogs. And you know they're capable of this.

And they're off leash. And they run into a hallway and they mall someone and kill that person. You are on the hook for this. And now we're seeing a cross the nation

that if parents don't secure their AR15s and they're mentally ill 15 year old gets a hold on one of these things, we're going to prosecute the parents. And this goes to incentives.

of senior level executives claiming, oh no, Frank's out of control

as in Frankenstein is an attempt

“to absolve themselves at the responsibility”

that they own these fucking pit bulls. By the way, pit bulls are lovely dogs. I don't mean to malign pit bulls. Yeah. I don't think there, okay, maybe some of it is concerned fine.

But this is about incentives. You are responsible for these agents and these bots. And while you want to capture the shareholder and the upside of the good things they do, that means you are responsible for the downside.

Correct. The fact that we have nothing resembling the IAEA, we have co-operated multilaterally with-- We have not blown ourselves up. But enemies on nuclear weapons tradeeers

for bio weapons, the first thing that needs to be done

by Trump is he needs to get into a room machine and say, we have a mutually vested interest in no one developing a super virus. We have a mutually vested interest in our youth, not killing themselves.

We have a mutually vested interest, especially China in some level of control of misinformation that enrages people and gets them to start demonizing and going after and lynching people when a rumor gets. There is so much overlap in terms of mutually vested interest

that they could get in a room at talented technologists and diplomats and say, here's a two or three page, called Memal of Understanding around what we are going to do but that incentives need to change. And there needs to be something regarding leadership

and a regulatory body here. And by the way, there are examples of how to do this. And I was thinking about this last night, the model, in my opinion, is the FAA, where the SEC after the 1929 Green Market

saved a review for all models above a certain capability law.

Never going to happen with Trump, just like never.

Well, OK, then that void will be filled by Newsomers, someone else. And I do think this is about to become a campaign issue. This is about to bubble up from data centers to the danger of the models in terms of an election issue. Green Market safety review for models

above a certain capability line before deployment. Mandatory incident reporting, similar to the NTSB, the National Transportation Safety Board. Anything goes wrong.

“You have to file it immediately and make us aware of it.”

And then you fund it with the transaction fee on frontier compute, the way FINRA works. That way taxpayers aren't subsidizing oversight of the richest companies in history. And take in the one thing, every fast moving industry

hates and needs an independent evaluator with, wait for it, subpoena power. Not with Dario's recommending these embedded evaluators. Hey, Susie works for the government. It makes 150 at the view, and she has no real fucking teeth.

But take her out with you tonight to the all hands. Dario is literally asking for this zero teeth, zero juice. Well, they all are like Mike Johnson. Let me just interject Mike Johnson's like, let's get together with the leaders.

Why are they making it? No. Why the fuck are they love meeting those fucking dinners? Have you been invited to one of those Trump dinners? Because we know a lot, and we've been actually accurate.

We have been talking about this issue for years.

“One thing we have to do, and I think we've done a very good job”

here on Pivot of articulating is, people fucking hate you guys. Like let's bring that, let's bring citizens in, let's bring regulators in, let's bring academics and scientists in that do not agree with you and you're a lookout. Bring people that don't have a financial interest in what's going to happen here.

And change the narrative. This is one that's drive me crazy. AI will kill 10% of immunity. No, they won't. The people who make AI will kill like, let's stop talking about AI being,

it's like saying electricity will kill whatever percentage. And they did. No, the bombs in kill 50,000 Japanese we did. We did. That's correct.

Like the bomb is just the tool. And for them to characterize it like, oh, I don't know. Like, who? I don't know how the mistakes were made by whom. And they need to be absolutely liable up to an including jail.

If one of their bots creates a virus and kill people, they need to go to jail. Period. And the fact that they're characterizing is AI will do this. AI will do nothing. They will do something by creating AI.

And that's, and the fact that Trump is in there, he is a bot and paid for corrupt, cemented person. And he should not, we should not put this in his hands in any way whatsoever. He's not just ignorant, he's corrupt. And so it creates this terrible.

We're an out of position as if someone crazy was in charge when nuclear proliferation and the nuclear bomb happened. Can you imagine letting companies figure out whether we should drop the bombs?

Well, okay.

So again, the analogy I've always used is, would we let up and hire

“a raise money from countries in Horowitz and start selling nuclear bombs in a PNG and UAE?”

We wouldn't. However, practically, we're not nationalizing companies that offer this much shareholder value in the innovation. We're just not. Now, and by the way, I just want to correct the record.

I said 50,000 Japanese, 50,000 people died on the initial burst. Somewhere between 150 and 250,000 Japanese died between the explosions and the fallout in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Okay. What are known, known, sir?

Trump's not going to do fucking anything. Nothing. He's going to, he doesn't understand it. The people around him are too old and too incompetent understandies technologies. This would take real work and real effort.

And he's, they're also all in the take. Their view is how do we get a big?

“How do we let these companies make trillions of dollars?”

And we get a Viggy, they're directly or indirectly, hey UAE, you can have GPU chips. If you fund my kids, crypto venture or my son-in-laws golf course. So do you, RFK Jr., he's the head of HHS, he is charged with the nation's health. He oversees something called the CDC, the Center for Disease Control. The greatest threat right now to the control of disease is the possibility that one of

these frontier labs has tools that develop a super virus. If we had anybody resembling a competent head of HHS, they would already have 40 or 50 scientists and technologists sitting in the fucking offices of these companies with full force of law saying, I'm not asking you what I need to see, I am telling you.

And then asking these models before they are allowed to be touched by anybody, how do I make a super virus and see what they say? The CDC should be on site here. Well, this is a guy that just needs to stay for breakfast, it works out in genes and is really quite mentally ill from what I can tell, like in all ways.

Like he has no interest in this, they have no, the people that should have interest in this do not or they're on the take or they are just, they're on the take. This is, I don't know what else to say about this government at this point because this is incredibly, and by the way Mike Johnson, you are actually a representative of the people allegedly and instead you are handing love with Trump, you want to have dinners with

these people and let me tell you the minute you lose the midterms, you're going to be a footnote to these people. They will move along for you because you didn't get them what they wanted. They're not interested in you, they think you're an idiot, I know this for a fact. And your job is to represent the American people, which nobody is representing them here.

And again, let me stress, there's not a 10% chance that I will kill us, there's a 10% chance that these companies and their leaders will kill us. That is what we have to keep saying over and over again. So the known known is the Trump administration will not be effective here nor do they have any desire.

So what could be done?

And I never miss a chance to sell more important than I am.

I'm having dinner with James Melik and tonight, who is the President of the University of California. Before that, he was the President of the University of Texas. This is a-- This is your board meeting.

That's right. Congratulations. Thank you. This is a talented man with very strong political connections with an unbelievable command of education.

This is my idea. He needs to hire Alex Stamos and he needs to assemble a collection of technologists, legal scholars, social scholars, philosophers, and put together what is the largest evaluation committee and blue ribbon panel and immediately offer it up for any frontier model and then get.

“And I think they would sign up, Alden, Amade, Huang, maybe Musk.”

I think they would agree to this thing. I think they are actually at the point where like, if we don't get something resembling a thoughtful, credible committee or evaluation board that serves as a model for regulatory

board, there have never been companies with multi-chilling dollar valuations that are this

vulnerable. I'm sitting here in my hotel room looking at the intersection between Santa Monica and Bolster Boulevard. If it got out that a rogue bot started fucking with the traffic lights and there were some car accidents here, the next day these companies might have to actually shut down.

Yeah. Companies are so, the media is waiting with baited breath for anything, regarding a rogue action here. And can I say, I do again, I cannot stand David Sags. I think he's been a menace here, but he is correct.

The motivation so down is not altruistic. They are trying to solidify their strengths of open source. At the same time that they're warning us, they're trying to protect their businesses. So they can dominate and nobody else can. They're trying to caution a vision, and this I agree with them, that said he's been incredibly

And so just because you say one right thing, David, doesn't mean I think you're not a menace.

“In related news, speaking of money, because money, you have to pay attention to the money”

here. Sam Altman's confirmed that Open A will not go public this year. He told Fortune that given the current safety concerns, this would be an ill-advised moment to take the company public, this is just an excuse, this is, they can't go public. How did I like to play a prediction you made back in February?

I think that what was supposed to be the most anticipated IPO of Open AI in 2026, sometimes this year, early 27, I don't think that's going to happen. I think that, yeah, I think this company is now, is gone into full, I don't call it panic mode, but it feels as if the momentum has a habit of creating more momentum, and I think the momentum is really negative around this company.

Meanwhile, Anthropics really chose a NASDAQ for its IPO, even as it's scared of killing everybody, it is will be going public, which could happen as soon as October. So how does Dario move forward with the IPO if he's so whole concerned, he's so concerned, Scott. And what does this mean for Open AI?

Because these are the two twin, you know, everybody else's peanuts compared to these two. Well, except for Gemini, but that's within Google, but go ahead.

Oh, we're never, we're never ones to feel bad for tech CEOs, but Adario and Sam are

being pulled in a lot of directions right now. They have the society and philosophers and media saying, OK, do you really want to be the

“guys in your late 30s known as the greatest murderers in history?”

Or be the ones that are responsible for hospital systems having the power cut off through a cyber attack that thousands of people die because they can't get their kidney dialysis so the emergency room lights go out. They have, I, I got to believe that unlike Mark Zuckerberg or even Shell Sandberg, I think it's given way more credit for not being psychotic than she should.

I get the sense, I'd like to think these guys are actually concerned for a lot of reasons. Having said that, their job is to get their ABCD ENF round investors who have invested hundreds of billions in their companies of return. And a lot of these guys, the VCs and the employees have already started spending that money.

Housing prices are up 24% in San Francisco. You don't think that all the engineers would open AI have already gone out and started shopping for houses. You don't think that the series see it open AI is counting their money and saying, I have

“this basket of shit in my portfolio and my stake in the B of open AI is going to pay for”

the entire fund and I'm going to be a successful VC finally.

What's your delaying it? What the fuck? No, get out. The guys are being pulled in a lot of different directions and because they've a total lack of leadership of a regulatory body that says, this is what is required to have a safe

frontier model. This is what is required for a company like yours to assess the risk and put out an S1 and actually go public. There are no man's land. There's too much look what's happened in the market.

Just since the kid came out and said, there's a 10% chance of an extinction event. This is what's happened. Softbank is down 15% in video, down 3% core wave, down 9% oracle, down 5. Microsoft Amazon and Alphabet all lower, NASDAQ futures down 1.5 to 2%. These not only open AI in video and anthropic are really fragile right now.

The entire economy is really fragile because Trump has made a giant bet on AI which is responsible for 90% of the capex increase, 72% of the earnings growth are ridiculous amount of the GDP growth. So our economy is now resting on a pillar where a guy showed up a 28 year old showed up and said, oh, by the way, the 40% of the NASDAQ is kind of engaged in this thing that might

be an expected death of 80 million people, if that's just or 800 million if you believe

my 10% calculation. This is such a failure of leadership in governance. There should have been a regulatory body a couple of years ago telling the media. The Doddfather of the iPodism all over the place. The Doddfather of AI right now, hinting, summarized it perfectly.

AI can go one or two ways. There can be a very good AI that helps solve pancreatic cancer, makes people more productive, lowers costs, figures out a way to take care of mom or efficiently extend life, accent call it, there's all sorts, figure out threats of nuclear debt, others, all sorts of wondrous things AI could do.

Good AI, bad AI, I won't even go into the specifics of bad AI. We can all imagine them. But the fork in the road, a big component of the fork in the road is thoughtful leadership and multilateral cooperation of which there is none right now.

This is a cat-powered kid, California Governor Gavin Newson, just signed a package of 13

“bills targeting social media and AI use for kids, creating some of the strongest online protection”

in the country. The bills include a ban on platforms offering addictive features to users under 16 as well.

Stronger safeguards for AI companion chatputs, there's also a penalty of up to a million

dollars per child of a social media company's found negligent and causing harm. Still a high hill to get to these people and signing the bills news and took a victory that for California saying we're going to lead the nation again, the bars pretty damn low. Congress is not going to follow suit on this. Now, I get there's a lot of criticisms of some of these parts of these bills.

They don't go far enough. They go too far. They do this. But you know, this is a patchwork regulatory scheme even if it's California. And so we need to have Congress, Mike Johnson, who is going to be a footnote, by the way,

you won't have your job. If I came fucking Jeffries, you better get on this immediately on the thing because first of all people care about it, you're seeing them express it through data centers. We cannot have these companies making the rules for the rest of us. Let's just be dead fucking clear about that.

One is never worked. Never. Never. Never. The incentive.

Let's get the car makers decide on, you know, who changed seats? Who's that? Ralph Fuckin' Nader by being an asshole. And that's great.

“You need that kind of, and that's what's coming for you people.”

You don't understand how much people hate you, and they feel it. They feel it in their bones. And so stop playing anti-trust games, stop playing trying to solidify by finding an opportunity when you are screwing us.

You're always trying to find an opportunity these companies, I'm going to stop.

We have to move on. Yeah. They hate about that. Popular say it's about the bubble of data centers, so these front tier to these front tier models.

Well, you've really blown it, kids. Let me just say, you've absolutely blown it anyway. Let's get going. Quick break me. Come back.

Mark Carney's power moves. Hey, what's up, guys? It's Babish. And on this week's episode of In The Booth, I'm joined by Chef Cookbook author and Food Network Legend, Alex Quarney Shelley.

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the agiatic era, how AI is changing every day work at netSuite.com/pivot. The guide is free to you at netSuite.com/pivot, netSuite.com/pivot. Scott, we're back, while Donald Trump has been busy stoking the flames of a trade war with Canada. Prime Minister Mark Carney, we love him, he's a handsome man, he's on the rebound working

behind the scenes to pursue a relationship with the EU, he doesn't want to fully commit Canada membership and is asking to be an associate member of the European Union. I love that. Just they're going to date.

Carney has reportedly been speaking to the EU ahead of state about energy, AI, critical

He's scheduled to address the European Parliament later this year in flesh out his vision for our Canada would plug into its 21 trillion dollar EU economy. What do you think? What do you think? You love Mr. Carney, so tell us.

“Yeah, I think he's going to be Times Man of the Year, I think he's going to win a Nobel”

Prize. I think he defines, for us we are dignified. And I think he's decided, effectively what you're going to have is, and this is the opportunity for the next presidential candidate, I get out ahead of us, I would propose an alliance, not only a free trading zone, but a diplomatic alliance between all democracies.

And Carney, but the EU is desperate for, is a leader with some power, because unfortunately, the whole is less than some of its parts, because what they have is 27 veto votes. Other than saying what they don't like, they're really, it's very difficult for them to ban around any sort of serious economic or technology policy, because everyone has this say, and this is a big opportunity, in my opinion, for Canada, basically, to continue in

an effective way to say no that we're not going to be bullied. They have more in common right now with the EU than they have with the US. The US will be big losers here, we're on to the impression that we can bully anybody. We're a third of the world's economy. We just can't do it.

Time out my lunch is I'm having lunch with a guy who runs 150 billion, and he always says,

where's the alpha, where are the ideas? My best idea right now is the following, there's $750 billion, a three-quarters of a trillion dollars of commerce.

“I think every one of those $750 billion is looking for a new provider of those services.”

And I'm going to say to this guy, what European companies are opposed to take a Canadian business away from America? Should Mexico do the same thing? Absolutely. He's already from Mexico.

Quite frankly, I don't think it has the same, that's a correct question or great idea. I would think that with Carnegie trying to cuddle up to the Europeans, that if you're some Finnish manufacturer at ball bearings and Canadian, whatever it is, paper companies are buying his ball bearings from a US manufacturer in Minneapolis, I'd be like, hey, it's going to be a little bit more expensive, but we make pretty good ball bearings in Finland.

I think there is so much into the detriment of American employees, factories, and shareholders. There is so much business that is now up for grabs.

Can I say, Trump always says, we don't need anyone.

I'm like, are we need people? Like, why does he keep saying that? Canada buys more from us than the EU or China. Why does he think we don't need anything? We're just that mentality of like, we don't need them, we have no need, they need us.

This is why we have such an idolatry for business people, and we ship posts our bureaucrats and our diplomats. This is why you need someone who is worked in government as president, not a business person. People are used to kind of raw power and leverage an IP and go fast and break things.

Yeah. That's not how government works, government is alliances and diplomacy and recognizing that if we can get two thirds of the world to cooperate, we're going to win. And that means given, it doesn't mean dominating Canada. And you can't dominate, and you can't actually look at those hoody pictures and you can't

acquire it. Right. It's not an M&H transaction. It's not a real estate transaction. It's diplomacy and cooperation and recognizing in what is probably, we take for granted

one of the greatest evolutions of mankind was people recognizing it's not about conquest. It's about cooperation.

“That's how the Sapiens beat the Nandertals just so you know, they were smaller, they were”

less strong. The Japanese used to, when an airman was shot out in the Pacific and he was sitting there and he was healthy, the Japanese used to kill that person in the sea. It was, they were inhuman to our POWs. When they surrendered, we decided, I know, we're going to tax every American household

and we're going to rebuild this amazing nation and culture.

And we turn them into allies and markets and friends. And friends. Yeah. And what do we do to Canada? Oh, you've been a remarkable friend.

You've hit our diplomats who followed us into Afghanistan. We're going to fuck with you. No. I mean, it's just, it Tim Snyder's coined it best. We are in the midst in witnessing super power suicide.

It is. It's true. But it's one man. It's one man with his attitudes and the rest of them go along with it. I mean, there's a new book up by Jacob Weissburg essentially about cowards who are sticking

with this. That's going to be one of Trump's Trump and he, well, I didn't go down badly in history. But the people around him to me who know better is the ones that I think he is stuck in a, you know, that he thinks he's a good business person, which he hasn't been really

But the people around him and knew better. That's the cycle.

“I'm really interested in talking about going forward after we read ourselves of this person.”

All right. Let's go to quick break. We come back. We'll check in on Mitch McConnell. Today's show is brought to you by Vanguard.

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“When you hear an old Motown song, do you ever think about just how good it makes you feel?”

Well, that was not an accident. I'm Will Anderson, and this week on my Music History Podcast, the Monday Music Club, we're diving into the early years of Motown records and how they crafted hits with factory level precision. With the help of Otis Williams from the legendary temptations, we walk through the entire

creative process and history of the label, it's founder Barry Gordy, and our favorite acts like the Supreme. So if you've ever sung along to Motown songs, and want to know more about the incredible people behind those timeless hits, check out this week's episode, just search for Monday Music Club right now wherever you get your podcasts.

Here's a little preview of the episode.

The first TH had written the song and it was ready to be recorded, but as Otis tells us,

it was originally intended for someone else. When Holland is your Holland Browder, what did I love going? They brought it to the Marvel. That's first. BAM, BAM, BAM.

Where did I? Now I'm winning singing that. So HD is it? Okay fine. Triggered to the Supreme's.

The Supreme wasn't knocked out about it, but I guess he said, well, we've recorded enough. Still, let's try this. They recorded that. That was it. We ended up the charts and they had seven number ones in a row.

So like any good millennial, I have a love-hate relationship with Gen Z. It's the phenomenon rattling millennials. They just look at you. They want something bigger themselves, lifestyles of priority, motivation is being inspired. But regardless of how you feel about Gen Z, it's undeniable that they're changing national

politics. Generation Z is increasingly showing less loyalty to traditional political parties, many now more likely to identify as independent. So what is going on with the kids?

“I think the biggest misconception about Gen Z's politics right now is that all of a sudden”

they're all socialist. That is just not the case. Yeah, yeah. They are embracing candidates who are offering new bold ideas in the absence of those ideas from establishment Democrats.

This week on America, actually, Gen Z researcher, Rachel, Gemfasa, joins us to separate Gen Z facts versus fiction. It's not rocket science, and this is, you know, I keep saying, "Gunkwaters aren't that complicated after all. It's pretty simple."

Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

Scott, we're back, and guess who else is, Mitch McConnell has finally returned to the Senate

after three months away. He came back in a wheelchair looking very frail, but told reporters he's there to finish the farm bill and keep backing Ukraine. He did not take questions, and again, did I say he looked frail? He shouldn't be there.

McConnell was hospitalized soon after a fall spent time in a rehabilitation center and announced the estate meant not any video back in August that he would continue his recovery at home. Meanwhile, McConnell has continued receiving his annual Senate salary of $174,000 during the absence and, of course, free healthcare. Look, as everyone knows, I'm an agent, so take this with a grand assault.

I don't wish him ill, but every point of data says the following. He's alive in the sense that it's hard to still beating, and that is about it. My dad was alive for two years after he turned 93, but he wasn't there. And here's, in this goes again to this larger thing I keep popping on about term limits in age gating.

We age gated on the front end, we should age gated on the back end. The first thing that goes with cognitive decline is your ability to recognize your own cognitive decline.

day she died, she thought nothing wrong with me.

I'm fine. Scott, I'm seeing it in real time with my mom. Literally yesterday, she was like, "I should go to New York and live by myself." And I said, "If you can get out of that chair and walk out the door, you're welcome to it."

I could do it, I'm like, "Well, then do it." That's the kind of conversation. And literally she believes she can do it, even though she actually can't do it. It's an astonishing thing to watch. I have to say, it's so counter-truthful, but she believes it in a weird way.

After my mom and dad got divorced, a dad who wasn't very involved in my life would have

“to spend every other week and with me, he had no fucking idea what to do with me, right?”

So after we saw every feasible movie that came out, we used to go go carting. They had these go-cart tracks in the San Fernando Valley, which was, you know, that's a dream for a nine-year-old boy to go go cart. Oh, yeah. I would love to go and go carting.

It's just today. It's a ton of fun. It's a ton of fun.

And the video games, anyways, it was a ton of fun.

When I took my father's driver's license from him when he was 84, which was a very uncomfortable thing for him, very upsetting. I was in the car with him and I thought, "My dad's going to kill somebody." So I sat him down and I said, "I need your driver's license," and he said, "What are you talking about?"

Anyways, a very uncomfortable moment, three years later, I showed up one week and it said, "What do you want to do?" And he was like, "I know, exactly what I'm going to say. It was his birthday." And he was like, "Remember?

What were you doing?" He was like, "Let's go go carting." My dad thought he could go go carting, three years after I took his driver's license from him. He was willing to get in a go cart.

And let me go to the other side, Joe Biden has metastatic prostate cancer. You know who gets metastatic prostate cancer? 82 year olds. We can have these people in these positions of this much power and consequence. Well, take it to Trump.

Did you see the picture? Barry looked actually lively compared to Trump at that 9/11 thing. This is where we disagree. I actually think Trump is more robust than you get him credit for.

“Because he sleeps on the stage, that's why, because he sleeps in public.”

Did you see the contrast in how the wives hand in hand looking at doryingly, Laura Bush looking at George Bush, like, "Oh, you little tiger." I mean, Michelle, and Michelle and Barack, and Ivanka literally looks like, "Okay." Ivanka, it's in Melania. I'm sorry, Melania.

Brody and slip. Oh, easy, easy thing to make. She literally looks like, "Oh, God, how do I get away from this guy?" And he was sleeping. That picture is, like, the love between these two is, so I'm saying, "Fine, he made

me more of us." But he's too old. He slept during the 9/11, like, "Stop it." Like, we're going to stack rank elderly people. They all suck.

Well, that's the point.

There'll always be an example.

There'll always be a Nelson Mandela, right? My 15-year-old can draw it, but he's not allowed to get a driver's license. And if a 34-year-old mom Donnie is not allowed to run for president, then Mitch McConnell it, or Charles Grassley, or Dianne Feinstein should not be allowed to serve at their age.

Jesus. We have to have term one. It's gotten there. I'm going to say this until the end of fucking time. It's going to happen.

We're going to make it happen. It's like ridiculous. Mitch McConnell, please just go home and just rest. Order minimum.

“If you're going to play baseball, or you have to pass a physical, otherwise they don't”

have to sign your contract. I think every 12 months, in elected official last pass physical, otherwise they don't. To be an airline pilot every year, my brother-in-law's father just passed away, talked about an amazing life. He was a measure.

He was a gunner, and an Emmy-109 measure Schmidt. When the war ended, they said, "Change into civilian clothes and be very clear, ride your bike west." You want to surrender to the Americans, not the Russians. He ended up becoming this world-class physician.

And one of the things he did later in life as a doctor in San Francisco was he was the guy that had to give pilots physicals. And if a pilot doesn't have the gross motor skills and the cognitive skills and the reflexes, they're like, "Sorry, you can't fly." See you later.

But Mitch McConnell, Mitch McConnell can decide, like, you know, how much money we're going to give? One of these people that was close to him said to me, like, "Well, we have to give Ms. Dignit. I go, we don't.

We don't have to. He has his dignity fee leaves." You'd give them more dignity if you went there to retirement at 72. It makes it easier for them to leave. Yeah, my mother's screaming at me yesterday about that and I was like, "Okay, you're staying

right where you are. Doesn't really matter." Like, we're in a tough, we're even very kind actually in doing that. Anyway, one more quick break will be back for wins and fails. Support for this show comes from Clavio.

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After years of rumors, Apple finally launched a folding iPhone.

The iPhone Duo starts at $2,000, making it Apple's most expensive phone ever. Apple's bold attempt at proving that folding phones are finally worth your attention. This week on the Vergecast, we went live from Apple Park with our first look at all the new gadgets. Plus, Lauren Finer explores the tech behind the two-hour marathon, and the story of how big

tech set the agenda for us students are taught to code. Check out the Vergecast wherever you get your podcasts. Port for the show comes from Quince, do you have a favorite thing in your closet? The thing you look forward to breaking out every year, maybe it's your favorite sweater that jeans that go with everything or the bag that goes wherever you do.

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I was very surprised how soft they were, they're made of organic cotton.

“They feel expensive and they aren't, and that's what I liked about them.”

No scratching is. I slept like a baby in them, and I was really happy, and I'm going to buy more sets because there are some of the best sheets I have slept on. Find the fall pieces. You'll reach for most of Quince down low-to-quince app for app exclusive offers.

You go to Quince.com/pivot, get free shipping on your order, and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's QU-I-N-C-E.com/pivot. OK, Scott, wins and fails. I'm going to go first.

Yes. This is a real fail, is this pro-public report that Russian oligarch paid for Donald Trump Jr's wedding. These people have no fucking limits. These people.

Omar Kremlev, who was apparently close to Vladimir Putin, kicked in hundreds of thousands of dollars in wedding expenses.

“These people have no limit to their corruption.”

This is insane. I mean, like Hunter Biden gets in trouble for a laptop and a painting and some dumb Ukraine is stupid, and I agree corrupt, but this is astonishing. Paying for the president's son's wedding from a Kremlin oligarch that is close to Putin. It just seems to me we have well passed anything that even the smell test here.

It stinks to high heaven. And you know, I just -- that was just -- I love pro-publica. They are doing God's work. I have to give them -- they book and lots of stories. By the way, so is the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal recently.

Amazingly good stories about corruption and everything else, and also the New York Times, but this week, particularly the Washington Post and this and Wall Street Journal. My win, of course, is practical magic, too.

I haven't seen it yet, but it killed it at the box office, $46 million is a Santa

Bullock and Nicole Kidman. I am an enormous practical magic fan. It didn't do well when it came out, but it's since become like Hocus-Pocus, a very popular movie, especially among millennial straight ladies, which I am not, but they love it. I love this movie, and I actually, first, I am puning my beautiful wife by saying, of course,

she wouldn't have seen it because she's a movie snob. But she and I watched it on Saturday because we're going to go to see practical magic on -- because another friend of ours that I love, practical magic. And we watched it, and she thought it was delightful. And it is.

It holds up, rather well. Santa Bullock and Nicole Kidman, especially Nicole Kidman, is very funny. They've made it remake. It's doing incredibly well. They're doing a great job on social media.

It was originally directed by Griffin Dunn, who I have a lot of regard for, I don't know who the director is this time, but amazingly thrilled that this did so well, and showed once again certain things can have a renaissance. There's a lot of these movies like this that are coming back and are making apparently a very good movie.

So congratulations to Santa Bullock and Nicole Kidman and practical magic too.

You're killing it at the box office, anyway.

That's my.

“It doesn't -- it doesn't surprise me, the, like, this irreverent light-hearted 90s”

color classic. We're the Owen's family curse is -- imagine your ultimate defense mechanism against bad relationships with a man is literal death sentence for the guy. They die. They die.

They die. It's really good. Oh my god. Aiden Quinn was in it. What happened to him?

He was -- That is the ultimate and ghosting. Yeah. Oh, so adorable. Such a good movie.

And a man will love to. That just wants to. I'm glad you're happy with it. Oh my god. Come on.

It's such a movie that you would be so awkward during I would imagine. They're so cute with a coconut and stalker chaining and by the way, Diane Weister, back again. Amazing. She is. She's one of the best characters in one of my favorite movies, Hannah and her sisters.

I'm so excited to see. We have a whole group of ladies going out to see it next Saturday night and we're very excited. And one of my favorite movies, Hannah and her sisters. I didn't love Hannah and her sisters. I didn't know.

What? No, I didn't. Oh, you got to see it again. I'm not a Woody Allen. Michael Kane, Barbara first.

I love all those actors. I love all those actors. I wasn't.

“And the only thing that made me laugh is one.”

Remember when we talking about this was someone else.

Remember when you went into like the blockbuster or the video star, there was always a porn section.

Right. I would know about that. Yeah. There's always a point. My favorite thing was wandering into the one in DC.

It was an old store. One of those old timey stores. Not the blockbusters, too. And it wanted to the point wandered into the porn section. And there was a movie right there called Hannah Dozer sisters.

That's poor name ever except for Ram bone. Anyway. By the way, Cara, just FYI, nobody wanders into the porn section. There are signs. You know what?

No one acts. Hey, how do I end up here? Paul. That's like my, yeah. That's like catching your son on a porn site.

Yeah. Just happen. I love that porn section. I love that. That was such a good thing.

“It used to be so much better that you had to go into somewhere.”

You know, I don't know. Trust me on this with Cara. It's gotten pretty good. I know. But it's like going in is the whole thing.

The whole. Anyway. Okay. When in fail, please. Okay.

So my win. My win is Newsom's child safety laws. He signed more. Governor Newsom signed more than a dozen online child safety bills Thursday. Which is likely the strongest package of protections for young users in history.

AB 709 bar social media platforms from offering addictive features. Infinite scroll auto play video to users under 16.

It's the first law of its kind in the nation.

SB 1119 requires AI companion chatbot operators to assess the risk of their products posted children document what they find. And hand the results to an independent auditor that also requires age of education. And then it's minor exposure to inappropriate content in restrict say I companies from advertising to kids. It's known as Adams law named for Adam Rain, a California teenager who allegedly committed suicide after receiving directions on how to do so from chat GPT.

Whenever I'm giving advice to young people or professional advice about I really want you to get to get promoted. The way you get promoted is you start doing the job. And you make it just easy. So all they have to do is change your title and compensation. There's no risk to promoting you because you're already doing the job.

And my view and I'll get shit and people call me by whatever. Governor Newsom is already acting like a president. These policies should have been implemented at a federal level. And there's a huge void and he's filling it. And imagine how hard it is for the governor of California when the reason you've begun from being the fifth largest economy in the world to the fourth largest

is a no small part because of tech and he's the one regulating them. It would have been much easier for the governors of Mississippi or of Kansas to pass this legislation because they don't have economically or politically well-connected corporations pushing back on him. And yet he got this done. This is a big win. And this will be potentially a model for much needed overdue federal legislation.

Anyways, my win are these this package of online safety bills from Governor Newsom in California. My fail is essentially, I mean, we've built a trillion dollar industry that is now grading its own homework. Dario emota the guy running anthropic has said publicly don't trust the industry itself to self-regulate. He said it himself. Sam Aldman is telling fortune it's too risky to take open a public right now. When the people who are building and would benefit most from this rocket are telling you not to get in it.

It's not fear mongering. That's data. I mean, this feels pretty serious. We didn't let Boeing certify its own planes or Pfizer approved its own drugs.

It's time for the AIA, the Artificial Intelligence Agency before Congress's answer or Mike Johnson or Speaker Johnson's answer to what do we do is just let schedule a meeting.

“This is an enormous failure of governance.”

The job of government is to prevent the public from a tragedy of the comments, while also balancing that with economic growth. We have aired so far to the side of economic growth that even the actors who stand to benefit most economically are saying,

"Okay, mom and dad, you probably do need to set a bedtime for me. I probably do need to be reminded to eat."

This is gone. There's such a void that CDC needs to be embedded in these organizations.

“So when you have corruption, I think the corruption here is bad.”

I think it's a terrible example. I think what's even worse is the incompetence. And I've said this. This is a mob family running the government. That's the bad news. The worst news is that Michael is running the grift. Some of the grift is actually quite elegant. I respect it in a weird way. Frateau is running the government. The level of incompetence in the lack of any sort of long-term thinking or ability to understand technology or diplomacy or that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts with our allies,

how economically stupid and damaging tariffs are and now to totally ignore the existential risks. Thinking if we ignore the existential risks, the economy will grow faster. No. It's some point. These companies are now incredibly vulnerable to anything happening because the view is no one's home. There's no prison guards here. Yeah. I think you're not worried about AI as much as surviving Donald Trump's incompetence.

“That's a good way to put it. That's what I'm most worried about. Excellent. Excellent ones. I feel you're absolutely right about this.”

We'll see what happens.

By the way, it's always in their self interest. They will take an advantage no matter where they are, including trying to squash competitors.

Anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to NYMag.com/pivot. That's the show. Our second show is Scott coming back. I'm so excited. He's back. Thanks for listening. If it hadn't be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel, we'll be back on Friday. Today's show is produced by Laren Aminzoi, Marcus Taylor Griffin, Todd Wiseman and Christine Driscoll.

Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.