Iran War Oil Shock, Anthropic Sues, and Market Wipeout Warning

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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher. And I'm Scott Gowlin. Scott, do we have a good time in Minneapolis? Oh that was wonderful and thank you to the wonderful people of Minneapolis.

I thought it was great. The community, you know, maybe we got a, not a represent sample. I like that they've got a represent, but the community seems very unified right now. Yeah, absolutely. People drove from New York to Koda.

There was some high. No loose to wherever that is. Or Iowa, we had a lawyer from Iowa come. Yeah, judge. Otherwise, shout out, we know who you are.

There's this wonderful woman who's a lawyer and family court and she communes seven hours a week. And she said that a significant judge, yeah. And she said where her, where her best friends. Yeah. Great.

And people were great. The audience is great. We're again, we had to thank team danger. Raise the whole pile of money, which Scott matched, which was very generous of Scott. And it's going to be over two signaling.

Yeah, that's okay. It was a night. This is the Scott. I like. This is the direction.

This is the direction. It was, this is the way. This is the way. We had a great time. And the audience was great.

We had a great show.

We talked to Governor Walls who looks amazing.

Very handsome. As he's leaving. That's a key. So much better when they leave. Thanks.

You know what I mean? Yeah. That's what.

“That's why we're descending into fascism because Tim Walls should have gone on”

a gov nine months or 14 months earlier. That's a difference between us and fascism. Okay. A GLP one. A decision.

Folks, if you're considering running for Vice President and you're thinking about a GLP one, get on it. The word is now. The word is yesterday. Anyway.

He looks great. We have no idea if he is. Let's just be saying that. But he did so. Come on.

Okay. Fine. The guy who showed up. Yes. Yeah.

Look like the old Tim Walls could eat him. That is true. But let me tell you something. He's running too. He said, "Tell me he was running."

And it goes along with it. It's a whole life set. They're always running.

They're always running for everything.

They're told not all you mean. Exactly. We were running. Yes. He told me about his radish.

You know I started running again. So we had a little chitty chat. The idea of you out running. I don't go outside. I don't go outside.

I don't go outside. I don't like running outside. No. You don't want to try it, ma'am. Yeah.

I love it. I used my little time for myself. There at the time. I love it. I do it three or four times a week.

It's really nice. And actually now I'm hotels. I have to have a nice treadmill. That's it. That's the way it goes.

“That's why I'm abandoning your apartment.”

Anyway. Are you doing okay? You're in New York. We're headed to South by Southwest, right? We got a lot going on.

We got a live pivot. I've got a bunch of things. Prof. G. has a bunch of things. I'm trying to think what else we're doing. Oh, we're launching my show's trailer goes up today for Carousel Schwarz.

Oh, we have a show. It's funny. You haven't talked much about that. You haven't mentioned it. Yeah.

Anyway, Scott is in it and we're going to be going to be debuting the part with Scott in at Southwest where we go to a sound bath essentially. But it comes out today, the trailer. So I'm very excited. And we're going to show it off.

David Ellison. The new king of Hollywood. What did he came up to us? What do we say? We say hi.

All right. We kiss his ass. He's very powerful. We don't kiss his ass.

He's a very, very critical of him.

I don't care. Anyway, we'll be nice too.

“I'll see you on Sunday because I'm going to that big fancy party.”

Which, oh, yes, you are. Oh, go up to him. I dare you to go up to him and give like a full like penis on penis hug. Could you do that? So I'm not a hugger.

I don't know if I noticed that. Yeah, I've noticed that. I try. I'm not a hugger. It's like Alex.

Yeah. Exactly. No, yeah. I dare you to do something really funny. Unless I'm giving you $300, you're doing more than hugging to not touch me.

Anyway, you're going to have a good time at that. That's a lot. It's a lot more than $100, $300. I'm excited. It's going to be great.

Calarico, we may be able to run it to him. So I don't know if you heard, I'm pulling a total care move. I'm interviewing him on stage with just a little bit of a raging matter. Oh, my God. That's great.

Oh, I'm going to come watch that. That's great. I'm so excited. Yes, I have the cast of Audacity, which is a new very hysterical Silicon Valley. Dang in the style of Silicon Valley.

Do you have any questions for Talarico?

For me, my first question could be, if Mary gave birth to Jesus and Jesus is the Lamb

of God, then didn't Mary have a little lamb, little dad, Jeff. I can't go dirty with representatives of Talarico. I like that one. That's good. That's a good one.

He'll laugh. Oh, oh, oh, oh. He's kind of a young fogey in my estimation. He feels like older, even though he looks like he's 12, not kind of things.

“I think what's people at home need to take a shot every time he says the billionaire”

class. Yes, okay. You should do that. One of my definite questions. Yeah.

I'm going to be like, I'm going to start off with the hearing. I have something in common. And that is we both follow hot women on Instagram. This thoughts. Okay.

All right. We're moving on. Sorry, James. Anyway, we've got a lot to get to today. I'm going to dig in.

First, the Warren Iran is sending oil prices on a wild ride this week and creating what the international energy agency says is, quote, the largest supply disruption in the history of the global oil market. Okay. That's kind of something.

As of this recording oil is still very high, slowly coming down from over $100 to barrel after ships were attacked in that Persian Gulf. There's also the tax still going on. Gas prices continue to climb as well. And just remember, it's not just gas prices.

Every price goes up when gas goes up.

The IEAs 32 member countries are releasing a record 400 million barrels of oil from strategic

reserves to counter the chaos, which means we aren't going to feel this yet. I interviewed Senator Warner yesterday, and he was noting that Trump has tried to come market. He keeps trying to do this to bring these oil prices down by words, saying the war is quote, very complete.

Only to later announce, we haven't won enough oil prices also plunged after energy secretary Chris Wright incorrectly posts that U.S. Navy had escorted a tanker through the straight-up or moves. So that was a problem. The post was deleted within minutes was enough to move markets and wipe out million dollar

trades. This is such a taco.

“This is the greatest taco of all, I think.”

And even if the war and Iran and soon returning the straight-up, her moves to typical traffic could take one to three months, we're going to see re-reverations of this ridiculous situation, the way he's handling it and the way he's not, it seems all over the place. And also to add to the kind of mess there, the initial findings of a military investigation and say that U.S. was responsible for that deadly Tomahawk missile strike on the Iranian

elementary school. It's actually causing a lot of strife within maga, by the way, and everywhere else, normal people and maga. The report notes officers likely used outdated information to label the school as a military target, Trump has tried to put the blame on Iran earlier this week, claiming

they also have the Tomahawk, which everyone thought was ridiculous. And when asked about the military report on Wednesday, Trump said he knew nothing about it. We'll get to the photography scandal of the Pentagon, but talk a little bit about what's going on with oil prices and this school, which is just, I feel like we should take responsibility

when we make an error, such a terrible error. But go ahead. I don't reverse order. When you're handling a crisis, and this is a crisis, the death of civilians, especially children, is obviously pretty ugly.

You acknowledge the issue, you take responsibility to try and over-correct, and they've done nothing of the sort. There's in a war and this is a war. This isn't military action. This is a war. There's more. The war he's using now. It's an excursion. Excursion. I went on a bike. Like a field trip. Yeah, exactly. My daughter went on an excursion.

Except you didn't get Congresses approval the day before the day could go on the excursion. Look, this is, you know, it's a tragedy. They just made a bad situation worse. First off, they look incompetent by saying that it might have been a tomahawk from Iran. Iran doesn't have tomahawk. So it looks like, okay, I'm not willing to own up to this. I mean, there's not a good answer,

with military action, this is a, this is a group of people who killed 30,000 of its own people.

War is going to have collateral damage. We screwed up. We take responsibility. These are that following steps we're putting in place to make sure it doesn't happen again and take responsibility for it. And it would have been not over, but it would have been acceptable. Instead, it's like, no, it was a wrong phone. It just doesn't, or I didn't know. Yeah. Oh, that's the same way. It was, it was, it was angry when people asked about it, which is the,

everything wrong in the response and everything wrong in the mistake, but you're right, absolutely. Yeah. And the, the real, I mean, we're just, we're just starting to see. So I was speaking to a kid and, and I said, what, what, you know, where do you want to be in five years? I was asked, do you want to mend that? Where do you want to be in five years? And this kid said, I'd really love to have my own auto repair shop focusing on EVs. I said, okay, well,

“then let's reverse engineer from those things. Like, what kind of skills do you need to acquire?”

What kind of job certification? What kind of capital or money would you need to start something like this? Have a business plan? What kind of real estate would you need? What would be, you know, let's reverse engineer everything you need basics, right? Let's reverse everything engineer everything to today around what you would need to be an owner of an EV repair shop. And he lives in the answer to Alexander Lewis, just the lovely of his job kid. Anyways, we can't even reverse engineer

the tactics because I don't think anyone is really clear yet on what the end game is, what the end goal is. And that is, if they had said, all right, we're going to diminish their launch capability from missiles, it makes all the sense in the world. It's more about the launchers and the missiles because you can bear the missiles under. These are ballistic missiles for people who don't know. We can, we are going to make sure that the streets of Hormos are more secure than they were

previous to this. We're going to work with our Gulf Allies to create a series of mine sweepers and and enforce the border. I mean, and we're going to take out the Navy and we're going to take out the munitions infrastructure that builds this stuff. These are the three boxes we need to check. Can I interject? Since I just interviewed Warner about this, one of the things that they've talked about is going and getting the enriched uranium, but that would actually be

would take as they say boots on the ground and it would be not viable, not feasible, not feasible. Unless we want a lot of Americans to die. Yeah, as is quite frankly, as is regime change. I mean, this regime is sticking pretty strongly. Oh, they're not collapsing. Yeah, yeah, no,

“I think Calshy had the likelihood of regime change at like 10% by the end of March or something like that”

right now. Anyways, but instead, we don't, it's like, okay, and more, you always have to have

plans A prime and plan B because the enemy gets to say in this, but the problem is no, can I identify plan A? No, they ate it. They ate it. They, they, the dog ate my home mark. Can I skip that oil prices? Because I think that's something that's going to people don't recognize. And the idea of trying to calm the market by releasing incorrect information, letting it go, you know, whip saw all of it. And this release of these 4 million barrels is going to

have repercussions later, because that's when the prices will go up these strategic reserves. And with they're trying to do everything possible to pretend we're not going to have a real crisis between the straight and poor moves in this release. And so it has the second order problems. And now Wall Street sort of sloughing it off a little bit. But these are prices

“that are going to reverberate through the system as you have noted. Oh, the biggest loser here”

is obviously the people of Iran who are in the wrong place at the wrong time. There is no bigger loser than the families who lose loved ones. I also think the reputation of the US and what was an opportunity to create much stronger alliances with moderate nations in the Gulf. So big losers, but what people aren't talking about, the countries that import more than 50% of their oil, Japan, South Korea, India, and most of Europe have seen their markets hammered. Absolutely hammered.

Poor countries with no foreign exchange reserves, and dollar-denominated debt can't, you know, are it could be thrust into the IMF or effectively what is bankruptcy. Airlines and hospitality companies all over the world shipping the bunker. And I point at Warner said he's been meeting with airline executives and they said they're

fine for now, but it's going to be $25 million a day extra. I mean, nations who import their oil,

especially who get most of it through the streets of Hormos, they're economy. Basically, their economies are like fuck for the year at a minimum. So this is having, you know, we have obviously the biggest losers by body counter Iran by economic collapse,

Guess who's doing great, Russia. This gives him the, he, he was really on the, on the ropes around

“the million, the million people who've died and also the price of oil. And now he has more money”

to spend while we ignored help from the Ukrainians on drones. And one of the things Warner was pointing out was that fine, we could take out their battleships, but their real problem is all those small fast boats and their drones. They could get just do all manner of damage to us with these small

$50,000 drones and we use a million dollar rocket to take it out. I mean, this is the problem,

is they have an ability to do this. And they've been there, you know, the way Warner described it, these, this country is hard is is hard in force to like hard, the hard-wired. This, this is not then as well. This is Trump lives like he's in some movie, where you just do three bombs, and that's the end of it. But this is a hard-wired 150,000 people in this ruling group. And Iran, and they're not giving up all this money and all this power for, I don't know, it's

a really difficult situation which they didn't think out. But just thinking about the market,

“the winners and losers, the hardest at stock markets, our Middle Eastern markets,”

Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, their stock markets creator. There's a capital flight to safety. I mean,

the ironic thing here is that over the long-term reputation isn't tatters.

We're probably the least damaged because we're energy independent. We produce more energy, we consume. We have two oceans protecting us. Friendly candidate in the north, harmless, harmless Mexico to the south. We still have capital inflows. It's terrible to say, but in a weird way, our markets are probably least damaged by this. Except the cost, they'll be cost for airlines, they'll be cost for truckers. They're going to be cost for home heating. Thank goodness,

it's not winter, right? The dollar's already strengthened. I mean, it's ironic, but when you diminish the entire world, there's a flight to safety and flights to safety, usually benefit the U.S., emerging markets are going to get the shit kicked out. I'm in India, Brazil, South Africa, Mexico,

capital flowing out to the U.S. dollar for safe havens. The U.S. will likely be down 8 to 10%

on a tariff ruling or was down, but it could be down another 10 to 15% and that'll be, I'll talk more about that in our prediction. But you're going to have a pretty big peak to trough, but some of them might just be the air coming out of the bubble. But to your point, the least damaged in the Middle Eastern Saudi Arabia and the UAE, but the big winter here, as you said, is Russia. The oil price bank benefits them. The U.S. is distracted by a ronsome

more Ukraine leverage. And oddly, the the rubble strengthens. So war is literally the agent of unintended consequences. And this is so frustrating because if this had been more like four do and less like a rock and they'd set out a series of achievable objectives, this could have been a win. It could have been the Gulf States coming together. And if they'd said, look, to a couple of European nations and to the Gulf States, a stable Middle East benefits, all of us,

let's all have a series of objectives. And we're going to pay for and executing it's most of this. We could strengthen our alliances. We've been dragged around by Israel here in a lot of ways. It looks

“like it. Let me say I disagree. I think we're very tightly coordinated with Israel right now.”

I talked to Warner, who's in the gang of eight. I'm going to go with him over you. I'm sorry to say that, but you know, I think it was that they were the Senator over scouts. Yes. I think they were going to attack. And we decided to be the senior partner. Like that's rather than create something else. Because what we mean that Iran was going to attack Israel. Israel's attack. No, no, Israel was going to attack Iran. I mean, that's the implication he had.

And Senator Warner feels like we did not have the power to say stop. Well, he doesn't know why we didn't that was one of his questions. He's least surprised. He seemed more more worried. He's usually not a worry word, but he seemed worried about two things. How this was conducted, obviously. And what the real implications are, especially around drones and small boats that could do enormous damage to our battleships and everything else. And also election security.

But one of the weird parts is how the administration has behaved. Donald Trump was dancing last night or golfing, and definitely gets the visuals aren't very good. The defense department has now barred press photographers from Iran. Briefings after publishing photos that he exists staff found quote, unflattering, according to the Washington Post. Hexaz Vanity aside, it's just, they just look like, like, he looks like a fatu is pop and Jay at all times. But in this case, the lack of

seriousness about something that's very serious seems problematic. And it's also causing problems within their own group of maga. There's a real shift. There's a real, like, sort of Tucker Carlson, Megan Kelly, M. T. G. on one side. And then, you know, Mark Levin, Ben Shapiro, all this is a real ugliness. If I wanted over to Twitter, which I shouldn't have done. And the nastiness between them

They're basically, I think one photograph brought, and didn't bring it into the Vietnam War,

but expedited it. And it's that, that's, it's that incredibly dramatic photo of the, of the, the young girl running from an apon bombing. And with the Iraq War, George Bush and the Pentagon, they banned photos of service member coffins because he realized war. So I believe it that it will lose support in the notion that these guys can handle the images of Pete Hexaz and an unflattering. I mean, it's just, uh, it shows your spending, you're allocating your capital

“in the wrong places. That's not, that's not what you should be thinking about or worried about.”

And if you think you can control the imagery of Pete Hexaz, well, okay, just wait, you see the images are going to come out of Iran. And you can already see that the IRGC is quite frankly organizing again and going on an information campaign. They are, and they, they've been very good. Iran in general has been one of the stronger players in those spaces in terms of propaganda and everything else. And so, well, would you say good, you mean effective? I mean, they, they lie like

there's no harm. Of course, but, hello, lots of people. There are lots of governments too. And so, I don't know, I think, I think Iran has said to a new level. They do, but, but they are, when I say good, is they're good at it. They're very, um, they're all throughout all the various social networks. They're very, um, they did one the other day, which I was sort of fascinated by where they put up your president as a pedophile, um, which was interesting. Uh, they just, they've been

at it for a long, long time. And they have used, often when there's stuff that pops up online, it's either Russia or Iran, um, trying to, in extent two, but really Iran has used social media, as one of the small, I mean, it is a smaller country than Russia or less powerful. And it is used social media to its advantage in ways that are really, of course, heinous because it's conspiracy

theories. And you always find them somewhere in, they're at the top, everyone I've ever interviewed

in cyber security, are the top in cyber security issues in propaganda in conspiracy theories. And they have a very well, well, machine throughout the world doing this kind of stuff. So,

“well, when the actual audit of social media has done, I think we're going to find that somewhere between”

10 and 40% of comments in posts. Yeah. On geopolitical accounts or accounts of influencers is going to have originated from either the CCP, the GRU or the RGCC. Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. This is what you do. You see a piece of content. And then you look at the comments to evaluate it's shaped your own view of that content. And when it has a huge impact, you don't even recognize how much impact it has on your views of stuff. Because if someone says, oh, the US will be able

to escort ships through the streets of Formos. I'm just using an example. And then there's just a

ton of stuff saying that'll never happen oil prices are going to be a 200. All right, where's that

comment coming from? And unfortunately, although they could put in places to verify accounts and get rid of fake accounts and fake comments, you know, we just go on these really sensitive

“pages or sensitive opinions and click on who made the comment. And it's someone with three followers.”

Okay, that's not a person. And the question is why would someone be making this comment or what entity would have an interest in these comments? Yeah, we're going to talk about that in a little because there's a major report from the Center for Countering Digital Hate that's really interesting around chat bots. This story is going to continue in every reparations, obviously. We're going to go on a quick break. And when we come back, anthropics sues the Pentagon and

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on this podcast that's indeed.com/podcast terms and conditions apply hiring do it the right way with indeed. Scott, we're back with more news. The White House is reportedly preparing an executive order to formally ban andthropic across the federal government, which is likely illegal. The defense department, CTO, a meal Michael, and let me just say I covered him and he's a

“toting bully. Just said on CNBC that anthropic would quote, "Polute the agency's supply chain."”

We've only done this for foreign companies just so you know, this kind of behavior. All this comes as anthropic is officially suing the Pentagon for labeling a supply chain

risk effectively blacklisting the company from federal contracts. This has never been done

to an American company. Anthropic argues the government overstepped this authority and violated the company's first amendment rights. And now Microsoft is getting in the mix. The company through its support behind Anthropic this week urging the federal court to temporarily block the Pentagon's supply risk designation and amicus brief. Microsoft warned that the unprecedented move would have, quote, "Broad-negative ramifications for the U.S. tech industry and their damn

right." Scott before we go further, I want to play a prediction you made last week. Let's listen. My prediction is no. And that is, Dario Amote has given license and permission to CEO's to saying no. And in the next 30 days, you are going to see a raft of CEOs find their testicles and start saying no to this administration. So you were right, Scott. So let's talk about that. Then saying no, not just Microsoft, 37 AI researchers at OpenA and Google, not the companies in

South also filed a brief supporting Anthropic. I'm going to just very quickly comment what the government's doing here is really unprecedented. It's a disagreement with a company. And instead of just disagreeing and moving on, they are attacking them in the most ridiculous ways trying to make an example of Anthropic and really hurt their business. And for you, I need you all to understand Emil Michaels' role here because these people all have other interests and agendas that

have to do with their previous life in Silicon Valley and their future life in Silicon Valley.

And Emil Michaels always, as I said, been a totem, bullied to powerful men. And this is what

he's doing here. And he's not a player that is in any way neutral. He's not doing things for you and I in this government. He's doing things in his own self-interest if would be my guess.

that are using the federal government to hurt a company that decided not to want to do something.

“And I'm glad Microsoft stood up for them. I think this is the biggest story in tech. And so”

just a quick recap, Anthropic had basically too acid a panic on. And both pretty narrow,

they didn't want a cloud to be used for fully autonomous weapons, meaning AI, not humans, making final lethal targeting decisions, which seems reasonable. And the second one was no use of cloud for mass domestic surveillance of Americans. And the panic I'm responded that it does not intend to use cloud for those purposes, but refused to contractually commit to that, arguing that it can't lead tactical operations by exception. And that legality is the panic I'm response ability.

And then on that, but two and a half weeks ago, Trump posted on true social directing every federal agents to directing every federal agency to immediately seize all use of Anthropic's technology. And then headset designated Anthropic as a supply chain risk. Okay, that is, that's a label

“which was which has been reserved for foreign adversaries. Yeah, I just said that and companies”

leap to the Chinese and Russian government, well, I'm saying it again. Okay. That's right. Okay, the supply chain, the supply chain risk status. First off, that's it. This isn't just the government saying, okay, you don't want to work with us. We don't want to work with you. If they say, if they label them as a supply chain risk, then already 100 plus enterprise companies have reached out to Anthropic and said, we may not be able to use you. A financial services company,

posits negotiations regarding a $15 million contract, a pharmaceutical firm, financial technology

company. I mean, they can't, this really isn't excess. When you're labeled sort of an enemy of state, this is the equivalent of like you're a corporate enemy of state or threat, I say threat. Anthropic has now filed a lawsuit against the Pentagon saying that Congress's procurement laws

“don't authorize black listing a US company overprotected speech. That's what this is. They get,”

they get to work with or not work with who they want. And the supply chain designation is, is just not, it's just not legal. And it sets a dangerous precedent for any American company. They will lose, the government will lose. But it will have an effect. Yes, yes, the government will lose. But it will still have the effect. This is a Trump thing. He creates a real problem, whether it's Anthropic. Companies don't work with them until they figure it out. And then, and then it causes

damage, just like they've done at, you know, when they fire all of voice of America, now they've lost in court and Carrie Lake is an idiot. But it's already caused damage and caused damage to it. And that's the goal is they're going to push it legally as far as they can. And then they'll be stopped. But by the time they're stopped, Anthropic is badly affected. And if you all don't think, this is a Silicon Valley rumble happening here. It's all in the self-interest of private companies

who have an interest in slowing Anthropic down. And if you look at the links between a meal Michael and the rest of these, these clans, they have financial interest in competitors. Just this, yes, they do. And so this is a way that Silicon Valley, the penny, Silicon Valley used to ignore government for the most part. And then the penny drop that they're easy to pay for and that they can do their competition with each other in the federal government

by pretending they're working for us as people or getting spots, putting their, putting their people in the various spots, right? That will cause it. This is a Silicon Valley corporate beef happening. That is what's occurring here. The one that's been most outspoken, I'm trying to connect his financial interest, which I'm sure is driving his rhetoric as David Sachs. David Sachs, Mark Andrews sent, please understand, there are shadow people behind these actions that you need

to pay attention to. And Trump is, you know, sort of a useful idiot. I'm sure they make fun of Trump behind his back. But, you know, it's all in their economic self interest to hurt this company. And they couldn't hurt them by being better. So this is how they're doing it. This is what they're doing. It's what they're doing. But it comes out, this is the, this is the folk from the determines of companies continue to show some background. And by the way, good for Sachs

in Adela, I'm showing some backbone here at, at again, risk. So the, the, the,

cautiously saying that anthropics, the likelihood anthropic wins the case is 72 percent.

In the meantime, companies will say, hey, that side license, we're about to sign with you on the topic. We're just going to wait. We're apologize. This is terrible. We think you're, you're great. But we can't, we can't sign this contract right now. To, to your point, Microsoft and a group of 22 retired senior military officers have filed amicus briefs in support of anthropic and it's lawsuit.

are running towards anthropic downloads of the cloud app, spike more than 75 percent after Trump

“prompted federal agencies to stop using anthropic. And on the flip side, uninstalls of chat”

GPT mobile apps spiked roughly 300 percent. The day after Trump's proclamation. So the, the, the question is who wins in the mind of anthropics board here? The fear and the status that has been created in the enterprise market or consumers running towards a company. They think it's finally showing some backbone. I think it's damaging. I think this is the, this is such a Trump way to do this is create anthropics more enterprise unfortunately. I know create chaos and damage and it's legal,

but do the punch, even if it's like, I'm not a boxer, but if you do like a kidney punch, you do, you hurt the person. And then you're like, oh, did I do that? I didn't know I did that. And you use your minions. And I cannot underscore again what a minion Emil Michael is. To do your dirty work and pretend you're working for the government. The whole thing is such a,

“this is so much a fixed fight. I can't even, you need to, and I think reporters should really”

spend, a lot of people don't know these characters. Again, this was an ex Uber, executive, he's been involved in a lot of stuff and Silicon Valley, but he had to leave Uber under, please go watch, look at our reporting on him many years ago. He had to leave Uber under very difficult circumstances around the rape of a woman in India in an Uber. But just, just go, go, go Google them reporters who are covering this and stop acting like Emil Michael has,

is this clean character. In any case, I'm sure he'll come after me, but it's true. So I'll win on that regard. Anyway, we're going to move on another thing that again Silicon Valley just can't stop stealing, essentially. Grammarly launch an expert review AI feature that gives editing suggestions supposedly inspired by well-known writers in journalist. Casey Newton discovered the tool was

attributing advice to him and others even though they never agreed to participate. The feature

even generated advice under the name of a certain tech journalist, Kara Swisher. They've stopped that now. They've gotten, they pulled back on it apparently, but what an incredible bunch of information and identity thieves. I don't know what to say. Anytime these people can steal, they steal. There's such shop lifters. I don't know your thoughts. Well, it goes back to this mindset.

“And I thought one of the, I think there's looking glasses into people's souls, how they treat”

their pets, how they treat service staff is sort of a, you know, when is their guard down? When they're certain towels, right? And one of the towels that was really frightening when Sam almost asked about the energy consumption of AI, he said, what people don't take into account is the amount of energy it takes in the amount of investment and resources it takes to get a

human to a point where it can make logical decisions and engage in critical thinking. He said,

if you look at how much energy and input and resources it takes to raise a child, so it's that it can get to a point where it can make decisions. AI is better. I found that so nihilistic and so inhuman because what Silicon Valley, or at least some of the individuals, we talk a lot about, don't realize is it, we try and get ROI economically, such that we can make low ROI investments in relationships and people we love. I'm not getting, I am not getting an ROI

back from my children on any sort of economical level. Well, you use a lot of energy. I'm wondering if we should use as much energy for you as we do because. Well, but the, the whole point, the whole shooting match of an economy and relationships and satisfaction and purpose and some sort of spiritual sense of calm and like your life mattered is that you do engage in, you know, productive economic or domestic labor such that you can invest that in other people. And you may

or may not get a return, but the point is the return you get is you're so invested in something that you, your life has meaning. The, the whole point is that you create value such that you can, you can, you can invest that value in relationships and for most people the most rewarding place of investment. We're quite frankly, they don't get anything resembling an economic ROI is in children and to look at it on that level. It's like, okay, you don't understand

what it is to be a mammal or a human and and also the notion that you can spend 50 years of your life professionally working your ass off staying late, starting in the mail room at the Washington Posts, as you did, such that you have a voice or reputation, a twist of phrase, an ability to string words together that compels people to action, it provides insight and then they can come in

It is like, if I type in, give me five jokes on this or give me a view on the oil price and I put

in my voice, it does a really good job because what it's doing is stealing from everything I have ever written set or done. That is correct. And so the music industry did this correctly, it said, okay, if we're a KROQ, which is awesome, the best registration of the 90s in Los Angeles and they play a bunch of English beat or Tom Petty or Lloyd Cole and the Commosions or RM, they track how much they're playing and then they send them a royalty. And what these guys want to

do is they want to leverage your years, decades of discipline, schooling, certification, risk taking, time away from your family, but they don't want to pay for it. And they see everything, I mean,

“that's, I think, a felony, but what is double homicide from a mentality standpoint is that”

these people really look at relationships and humans on an economic basis. I just, when I saw that

I thought, I thought, this guy is not, he just had a kid. Well, I'm not going to, I'm not going to speak to his children, but what he's going to find out, and this is what I would I tell other dads. This is dark comment. It was a dark comment. I'm like, don't make the mistake I made and think that right away, your kid's going to be super into the shit you're into and you're going to get all these hallmark moments despite what insurance commercials would tell you, you're going to have

to invest more in this child in every way. And that's the point, because at some point what you realize is that that over investment and other people gives you purpose and value. Let me just say,

they think everything is for the taking and for them. I just, this is just another example,

“this, what was happening at the defense department. Oh, we have an up on anthropic. Oh, anything they”

can take, they take and they just continue to prove, you know, they keep not meeting my low expectations for them already. And this is kind of an interesting thing. We're searches from the center for countering digital hate, which has been attacked in all that, and it's, and it's found or been attacked legally by Elon Musk. And the federal government now in his, at his behest, they're keeping going, though, they don't care. Tested 10 major AI chat bots have found out eight out of 10 were willing

to help plant a violent attacks like school shootings, bombings, or assassinations, researchers posed as a 13 year old boys as their tumbo is showing how easily miners could get guidance on weapons, locations, and strategies. Only anthropics, clawed, and snapshots, my AI consistently refused to assist in planning attacks, and only clawed attempted to sway the users. Deepseek wish the user happy and safe shooting. And on that note, a lot of you have been writing in about a story

in Canada earlier this year. In 18 year old, I'm an open fire at a school in, in tumblr ridge, British Columbia, killing eight people. Let's listen to a clip from a listener. I am calling because it seems to be that there is a connection now between the shooter and chat GPT. The shooter was flagged by chat GPT several months ago regarding some of their behavior online. Chat GPT didn't report it, which is one of the reasons why I am leaving this

message to see what your thoughts are on that. Open A is now being sued by the parent, the child, who is injured in the shooting. I, as you know, I've been at this for years, especially around kids, but it's jumped into people. The most recent one of the most recent shootings. It was this suicide was like an adult was, was changed by these chat bots. I cannot, let's call them chat bots when an adorable word for synthetic beings. Who don't, who don't, they're not bound by legal,

like if you're a lawyer and you did this, you go to jail. If you're an analyst, if you're a, you know, psychologist and you did this, you'd go to jail. If you were a person and you did this, you would go to jail. Like all of the people go to jail. They're willing to assist in violent attacks and they're not doing anything to reign it in. And it's not just kids. It's, it's everything. And again, the only one that is doing the right thing is clawed. And so, and this is anthropic. This is the

“company. I'm not doing an ad for clawed here, but they have at least some, and I think they should be”

regulated too. But I can't tell you how incandescent I am about the way these people try to take every bit for themselves. And they do not care the damage they are creating. And I, I'm going to keep talking about this until Congress steps in and does something about it. You don't work for those rich people. You do not work for them. You, and I'm with Dental Rico enough with these people. So, go ahead. Well, I think it's important to draw distinction between potentially creating some

digital platform. I think that's a separate study that needs to be done. And without the interference

of the mass of money and lies and, and owned, bought research that these, these terms will do. I think this is different. I think this is whether the federal government needs to put in place laws and incentives such that if a private organization or corporation receives information that this person might be on the verge of committing an active violence, if they have a responsibility to report it to the authorities immediately. And I think they do. I'm not a privacy

person. I'm not suggesting we go to minority report where we arrest them before they've committed the crime. But at, at my school or, or so, my school in Florida where my kids went at another school,

and we, we also shared information when I was involved with the school about these very

difficult situations. A kid was drawing very, um, disturbing images of gun violence. And so, the school felt like it had an obligation to report it. And then the FBI went to the house and the FBI said, "Are there any guns in the house?" And I think that was the right thing to do. You're right. That's, and if you notice, there was a video that went viral on SNAP, a teacher put out a SNAP saying that she wanted to kill these kids. And it immediately, the cops showed up and said,

“"Did you put, did you say this? Are you having any sort of mental issue right now? You need to go home?"”

And we need to understand what is going on with you, and if you have access to guns before we let you back into a school. And the same is true here that if you are going to monetize this type of information and you understand it, so you can interpret it so well that you can create a prompt that keeps them on another second, another minute, or serves them the exactly right auto insurance ad. Then exchange for that economic benefit and what is clearly demonstrated ability to know what's

going on with that person. If you see any evidence that that person might be capable of creating this type of crime, you have an obligation. You bartenders the bar, if a bartender continues to serve people alcohol, observing that that person is really drunk. And then that person gets an

car and kills someone. The bar is liable. Very good analogy. So if they have such incredible targeting,

such unbelievable information, they can clearly tell that, okay, this individual is getting maps and identification and information is basically digitally casing. This is worried some, we should investigate. It's what you're saying. A school, then immediately a message goes out to the local authorities saying, "Here is exactly what this person said. We have a judge involved. You get the order and boom, they're in the house asking this person questions. I'm not saying

they arrest them. I haven't done anything yet." They would argue, this is surveillance, but of course, they don't mind selling surveillance. They're surveillance. I know, I know that the thing is, you know, I'm just saying a human being in this situation would be arrested or liable, right?

“People are giving, I agree. You should separate the two, but they're related, Scott. It's the same”

mentality of let us extract all the good stuff, let us not protect anybody, and we are not liable for what we're doing. You know, more than once called them cigarette companies, it's worse than a cigarette company. They were just selling cigarettes and using Joe Campbell. That sucks. But this is something demanded. I think they're demanded that they think this is okay, and that they don't say to themselves, should we really, is this the way we want to make our money? We want to make our money by poisoning

children's minds. We want to make our money by letting people who are mentally disabled, become more so, and then giving them a plan. I agree, but they're giving people plans. And if you're going to give people plans on how to shoot a school, you have a responsibility to say, you might want to check this out, please. I get, but for the purposes of remedies,

“I think you need to separate the two. Character AI may, in fact, be leading people into a state”

of psychosis where they believe the right thing to do is to find their stepfather's gun and kill themselves because they're going to get to hang out with Daenerys and in the afterlife. That is shifting their psychological state. My understanding of this, the shooter here was that she was already in an awful psychological state and was using chatGPT as a tool to execute violence. Both require some sort of regulation, responsibility, and action.

that the character AI can lead people to, which, by the way, has an average usage time of 75 minutes versus AI at like 13 or 15. At the same time, if these organizations can very easily use the same technology to not only alert them at the right moment to serve them an ad for a dating app or for a crypto currency trading platform to say, this person is clearly going through something and potentially a threat to the community and others, they have a responsibility to immediately notify the authority.

All right, we're going to finish up, but they don't have a community responsibility. One of the things

that always struck me when you think they don't have a community. They don't feel like they

“like, no, I'm saying they should. I think the agreement here. I think they never did is the point”

I was going to make. When they were building their headquarters, I remember Twitter building its headquarters and they had the most beautiful cafeteria. I don't know if you've ever been there, but it was. I would. I've never been invited to Twitter's cafeteria. This was pre-Elon and I was thinking pre-lon pre-lon. I was thinking they don't care about all the businesses around. Like, you know what I mean? They kept the people captive and this beautiful everything is here.

Don't go anywhere and that they don't give a fuck about San Francisco. They just want to be here, but they didn't care about the surrounding delis. They didn't care about people going out in the street and creating a street life. They didn't back the, you know, they don't have to back the

opera, but they didn't back any civic organizations ever. And I was always like, "Huh,

what a group of people. They don't really care about anything but themselves." Like, I remember

“being struck by that cafeteria and thinking they really could give a fuck. And it was the same. It's”

the same idea. They could give a fuck about our government. They could give a fuck about all these things except for what's in their interests. And so I could go on. I'm going to, I'm moving into, I'm speaking of psychosis. I'm moving into one. Hey, it comes from under one sort of basic algorithm. And that is all corporate. You could argue the big tech is worse than most. But generally speaking, it's safe to assume that all corporations care about its shareholder value and earnings.

And getting to those earnings within the confines of the law. What it unfortunately is different nowadays. I don't think that's changed. I think general motors would still be pouring mercury into the river if there wasn't. I would agree. It wasn't an EPA. The failure of the glitch in the matrix is that we used to have checks and balance in the form of leadership that prevented a tragedy to comments. But because of citizens united now, the only thing that elected officials care about

is getting reelected. And the only thing you need to get reelected is more money than the next person. And Silicon Valley is connected to dots here. And it said, we can compromise, inch by inch, their ability to regulate us and prevent a tragedy to comments by throwing money at them. And now billionaires, the 900 billionaires in the United States are responsible for

“19 percent of the park given. I know. Was that number? So I think you should have”

toleracle about this. I'm sorry. You should let him talk about this issue. I mean, ultimately, it's, this is not a good situation for all of us. And they, someone came up to me the other day

and who had been critical of my book being too hard on Silicon Valley, burn book. And they said,

"I have to apologize. You weren't hard enough." And I was like, "You're absolutely right." But anyway, all right Scott, let's go on a quick break. We come back. What Barry Diller is saying about CNN? Support for this show comes from Indeed. If you're looking to hire top to your talent with expertise in your field, Indeed says they can help. Indeed, sponsored jobs gives your job the best chance at standing out. In grants you access to quality candidates who can drive the results you need.

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organic yogurt near you. Scott we're back with more news. Barry Diller is speaking out about wanting to buy CNN and what he would do with it in a new interview. Diller says CNN hasn't been managed offline. Has enormous potential to influence. He says he told one of other CEO David Zazoff all this. Let's listen. We're at Stonyfield. I don't think you're programming. I don't think it's being optimally programmed. I don't think it's competitive. Not

by the way, the facts support that. Meaning that it's ratings have declined. It's revenue has declined. It's still quite profitable but how would you alter it? Oh, in every way, look, feel and see everyone. And I mean, I hope I get the chance. I don't think I will but I hope I do. I'm not sure when this was but I texted him. He said it's not happening. He said not that now that the Ellison's have it and he's quite correctly and I happen to know this. They're going to combine

CNN and CBS. He doesn't think he has a chance. I would love to work for Barry Diller. He's much more conservative than I am. But I would certainly love, he's such a good programmer. He's such an interesting thing. He does love journalism even if he gets mad at it. Sometimes he's someone I appreciate in that regard. And it would, I wrote a message and you please, and he's like, there's no way. So I can knock this one out of the water. He can't do it. Unless

please, Ellison, sell it to Barry Diller. Please, that would be great. So any thoughts? I mean, I would

“love to see Barry Diller partner with Jev Socker and a private equity firm. And I think there's more”

greater likely than people believe that the Ellison's might say. This is too big a headache. We might just sell a combined CBS and CNN to someone else because I think that I'm not sure it may be I'm being naive here. I'm not sure there is Mac Avaleena's people think about trying to control the world. I don't know, but maybe they have some grand vision, probably integrated into TikTok. But I can't imagine. Their Ellison is as smart as he is. He isn't going to say,

this is going to be more headache than it's worth. Yeah, they wanted the studios. I agree, they're not quite in Mac Avaleena. They, they, they're just opportunistic. I would say. I, you know, David Ellison was, was democratic. You hear the third richest man in the world by focusing on economics. And I think that anyways, I think there's a shot. I think it makes a lot of money. Diller is correct. It makes a lot of margins. But I did some analysis here because I just wanted to show

you, like, one talk about some numbers of cable, which I spent a decent amount of time last night on AI looking at ratings and viewership. And essentially what I did was just to give you a sense

for the ecosystem. And also, I never missed a chance to make pivot look good.

It is good. I looked at gross viewership. That is the number or listenership. That's the number of people who watch a program. And then see it on YouTube or on social or download the audio and listen to it. And actually, listens are more valuable than views because it's a more intimate experience.

“And that's why that's why you get higher CPMs on podcasts right now. Then you get on cable TV.”

CPM is the cost per thousand viewers and advertisers willing to pay. So let's look at gross viewership. The number of times someone or the number of people that watch the program, see it on YouTube

Time. Fox News during Prime Time averages 2.1 million in gross viewership. This is staggering.

CNN, 660,000. Fox is kicking the shit out of CNN. Pivot's gross viewership is 375,000. CMBC is 252,000. Now, that's a bit of a misnomer. It's important. But what advertisers care about. They don't care about kids. They don't care about seniors. They care about people age 25 to 54 who are buying kids, houses, and cars, and in their mating years. This is a single pivot, not two together with the week, right? This is this is one show. One show. Not a week or two a week.

But go ahead. Yes. This is one show. So in the core demo, that's adults 25 to 54. Let me start here, which will explain that number. Let's look at the median view or age. Fox News, the median is 69. CNN at 67. CMBC at 63. Pivot, the median age is 42. What do you do? So,

“which leads you to believe, as you should, that the number of the percentage of viewers in the”

core demographic for these institutions or for the cable guys in CMBC is somewhere between 20 30%. For Pivot, it's 70%. Meaning the number of people listening or watching these program. Listening to or watching these programs in the core demo that advertisers care about. CMBC gets 63,000 people on average watching their programming who are in the core demo. CNN gets 135,000. Fox gets 1097,000 and Pivot gets 233,000. So we're getting more people in the core demo and then

which leads to the following. Our average CPM, according to Ray Chow, ultimate nice guy and new father from box. We get a CPM of $45. The word I've heard from CNN is they get between 13 and 17 dollars. I don't know what Fox gets. So just to give you a sense. Oh, and let's talk about median household income. And cost of doing business. But go ahead. Yeah. You want to reach wealthy people.

“wealthy people are now responsible for 50% of consumer spending that more discretionary income. Right?”

Fox News, the average household of the median household that comes is $60,000. CNN 65, CMBC 85, pivot 150 because you get a very tech heavy high paid audience. So it's pretty obvious why cable news Fox is actually doing pretty well. But people news as a whole is dying. It's literally dying. So Barry Diller saying he wants a new look and a new feel. What I would suggest is unless you can pick it up at distressed pricing and consolidated with a bunch of other stuff,

I think Barry's falling into the same trap that a lot of people follow into. And that is nostalgia is not a strategy. I don't think there's any, I don't think there's any coming back. Really interesting. They're too expensive. I mean, you didn't even

“figure in costs. Dark costs are basement compared to all their funds. Oh, the gross margins?”

Yeah. I mean, then it gets, it goes from ugly to worse. Yeah. What's interesting is there, it's still a great brand. And I agree with you about the romanticism. He happens to be even today at his, he's much older. He's still the best programmer. Yeah. He's, he's a legend in the world of media.

But not just that. I've never seen him think like, oh, I did. So it's John Malone. And he hasn't

been able to figure it out. I agree. I agree. But I'm just saying, I wouldn't like just say, oh, he's just being romantic. I've had discussions with him. He's got some great ideas. And I agree. It's a real problem. It's a, I would spin it off and see what Zucker and Diller could do, because both of them, very good. They have a lot of ideas and bringing people who have great ideas. And what would you do with it? If they said, here is this, this is what you have, Scott.

What would you do with it? I know you have not just in a bathroom at the television. I know that, but I, it's an interesting, I think, it's what he knows best. And it would be interesting. I think he would be an interesting owner. He says it's not happening. But, but it's nice that he's

bringing it up. I think. Well, the second. And by the way, speaking of our demo of our young demo,

42 means there's a lot of people on the very young side. He loves the young man named Evan last night. I was going into this party for Hank Paulson. It was like, I love pivot. Say hi to Scott. Now's like, and Amanda was like, that is a very young person. I get stopped by very young people, very old people, middle, most much in the middle, and very different people. And I really,

different fans. But you're right. In age, thing is important. All kinds of stuff. Anyway,

very good luck. All right. We're not going to be buying it. And I won't go off on my craziness like I did with the post. All right, Scott. One more quick break will be back for predictions. Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough. So why make it harder? With it doesn't different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odo, it's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform

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Okay, Scott, let's hear a prediction. One thing, I predict we're going to have a great time

“itself by Southwest. Alright, that's my prediction. That's what you're predicting. Always.”

Alright, so my prediction is essentially, I think the markets this year are going to go down. I think we're, I think we're on the precipice of like a 10 trillion dollar wipe out. Wow. Really. Oh, yeah. Tell all. Well, not, and by the way, I got this wrong all the time. This is enough financial advice, but I don't think it's from Iran. It's from what comes after Iran. And this is, this is the chain reaction here. I don't think oil is going to, I think oil is

not going to be at 150 bucks, but it's going to be, it's going to be sustainably higher. It's going to be elevated through the rest of the year. And inflation in some markets reignites. The Fed can't cut rates. They're trapped to inspire the economy because they're worried about inflation. I think corporate earnings are really impaired. It's consumer stop spending. Because some of them will be paying five bucks a gallon for gas, and the 401k will start to decline. And Q2 earnings season becomes

bad. And then what CEOs do when things are sort of bad is they throw in the kitchen sink. And they'll make it look like a bloodbath just to get all the bad shit out. But the real contagion

“here is going to be from emerging markets. I think there's a decent chance that Pakistan and”

Egypt default. And as well as Sri Lankan Bangalore Dash, dollar-denominated debt, very energy-dependent, very fragile economies. Because they all, they all, there's this domino effect in those markets, because they can't afford oil imports. And their dollar-denominated debt just becomes unpayable. And then the real downward spiral starts, European banks holding that emerging market debt, started announcing right downs. Foreign banks, Deutsche Bank, BMP, Paribah,

all hugely exposed, credit spreads blow out. And we get, sort of, not this to the same extent, but we get an O8 style, which bank is next moment. Except this time, it's happening while the U.S. is fighting a war we started for no reason. It's an excursion Scott, excursion. Well, that's a mistake here. It should have been a special, it should have been a military combat

by August, the narrative shifts from transitory, war shock to Holy Shit, we may have broken the global financial system. The S&P is off 20 to 40% from its peak. Bitcoin goes to like 30,000.

“And, you know, and quite frankly, the only thing that probably goes up is can goods and ammunition”

and Chevron. Well, that's a scenario. Happy South by South West. But it's going to start, the predictions are falling. It's going to start. The contagion is going to start an emerging markets that can't afford oil and their debt is dollar-denominated. It's just a toxic cocktail.

Very accurate projection I have to say. So, the problem is we've shot so many bullets with our debt

in printing money that the ECB and the Federal Reserve doesn't have the same firepower to try and lift us out of this. So, in other words, it could be like an OH shock, but the problem is we have less ammunition for a bailout. Yeah, with the tariffs, with the debt, with everything. I mean, you know, one of the things that... Did you hear James Carvel saying, "I don't have enough joint range of incendiary. I want more." I, you know, I'm so furious at this fucker he was screaming.

This... What he has done here with this Iran. And it all, as you have noted many times,

“links back to Epstein, I guess, right? It links back to this guy. Is the guy in every room?”

In every room, I think you're absolutely right. This everything is motivated by either people want to get before while the get-ins good or for themselves, or an unhealthy need to hold on to power in a demented way. Like, I remember when Elon said that one time, if Democrats, it's an existential crisis

for the world of Democrats, when actually, as I always say, every accusation is a confession.

We're in an existential crisis because of these greedy fucks, and because of the need to hold on to power over everything, and it's going to... It has reverberations around the world. There's some really interesting tax proposals. Senator Booker proposed, basically, a tax holiday for young people, which I love. Not that expensive because young people don't make them much money. We need to level up young people who are 24% less wealthy than they were 40 years ago versus old people or 72%

wealthier. And then, for the first time, I saw a wealth tax that could potentially make sense, but instead of going after billionaires, they should be going after anybody,

or everybody that say has a well, more than call it, $100 million. You get no happiness,

your kids who get no incremental happiness from inheriting that much money. Yeah, we're helping you. Billionaires, we're helping you lift your wallets. And it should be annual, and it should be small enough, such that people don't have to liquidate assets. Or move to Florida, like... Yeah,

“it has to be federal. Starboxes, you have to get federal. It has to be federal. You're absolutely right.”

That's great. Okay. All right. We're going to talk about that. That's going to be one of our big topics itself by Southwest. Anyway, because you have, we'll have just interviewed baby Jesus. Anyway, uh... Call the baby Jesus. Call the baby Jesus on. I dare you. Peanus hugs, baby Jesus. That's nice. It's awesome. Austin, you can't find three wise men in a virgin. Ah, very good. You know what's coming. You know what's coming. We just heard from the

Calarico team and that he has a scheduling conflict. Yeah. We, anyway, we want to hear from you, stop with the jokes, send us your questions about business tech, or whatever's on your mind, go to nymag.com/pivot, to submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, I'm going to get serious for a second. Monday, I published a story that I think I'm the most proud of anything I've done on a very long time. I sat down with three

Epstein survivors who've been pushing for more transparency on on with Karen switcher's survivor Liz Stein, who's also a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, said her desire to help her younger self fuels her advocacy work. Let's listen to a clip. It would be irresponsible of me to have this position and to not use it so that others did not feel loneliness because if I could go back and tell myself anything, it would be to tell someone and if they don't listen, tell someone else

and just keep telling until people listen to you. And even if you feel like they don't be proud of yourself because you at least were able to sit in your uncomfortable truth when other people weren't. And that's really what feels me doing this advocacy being the person that I wish was there for me when I needed them. Well, this is a great show. They actually got to talk a lot about it. Often you can get these shorter interviews. It was really very moving.

I just listen to it. I know everyone goes, oh good, Dennis. Now you can hit the emotion in the

And you know, it was in a lot of, I've gotten a lot of feedback that's been, I really appreciate,

but it was all these women. They were astonishing. It's nothing to do with me, but I let them talk

“and you should listen to what they have to say, as she said. Anyway, that's the show. Thanks for”

listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week. Today's show was produced by Laren Naman to my Marcus and Taylor Griffin.

Earlier, I tried to introduce this episode of Manoma Rano, edited the video. Thanks

also to Drew Brows, me, Severa, and Dentalon. This shot, Karwa, is VoxMedia's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you for listening to

“Pivot from New York Magazine in VoxMedia. You can subscribe to the magazine in my Mac.com/pod.”

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