Trump’s Map Makeover, Milo’s Deportation, and Gwyneth’s AI Dinner Drama

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I think it's trickle down kiss assery. I mean, look at how these guys catch Trump's ass, and now we have going to the powtrow kissing their ass, and it's just like shit's rolling downhill. Hi, everyone. This is Pivot from New York Magazine in the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisher, and it's the final week of...

God, three August. My guest today is the co-host of the I've had it podcast, and I hip news and author of the upcoming book, not today fascist. It's, of course, Jennifer, well, take Jennifer. Hi, Cara. How are you? Thanks for having me.

Good. Thank you for being here. You've been on a bit of a roll, even on a bit of a roll.

I'm always getting in trouble.

“I know, in it. Yeah, I'll always, what's your latest step in it?”

What have you done? Well, they really mad at me about the homeschooling. Um, and then recently, a friend sent me a tweet that, because I said, I, I think that Melania was purposeful and intentional in her documentary that she wanted everybody to know that she doesn't sleep with Donald Trump.

Oh, well, this guy clipped up on right-wing media in, at the heartbreak hotel in the comments section, because I think, surely there's nobody left in the cold, and it's like, they do too sleep together. They love each other. At least somebody loves him. Nobody loves you. I mean, they were really defending hardcore. And I'm like, she doesn't sleep with him. Yeah, she doesn't sleep with her. You, you still believe that people have left the cold. I don't believe that at all.

I think they're in it to win it at this point. They're not.

“No, I agree with you. I, I think they're in it to win it. I do.”

Right. What, what, what, how do you, what is the reaction when you do things? Like, this like, today, not today fascists, for example, explain the name of your upcoming book. It's kind of a parent. Okay. So obviously, I grew up in the Bible Belt. And so, uh, in Bible culture, everybody was saying not today, Satan. Right. And so when we did, when we were when I was writing

the book and we were coming up with a title, it's when Stephen Miller was like, you can't call us fascists and we're going to make it, you know, at fighting words or an act of terrorism to call us fascists. And I'm like, I want to put that in the title. I'm going to call them exactly what they are. I'm not going to be in the knee. And so I wanted that front and center in the title, not today fascists. That's an excellent name. But, but we talk, talk about sort of the reaction

to you. Is it cotton warm? Sir, because I was talking about Maggie Heberman. And she was saying that the, the hits again, the hits that Trump does doesn't quite hit it as much as they used to. I mean, she, he just attacked her this week. Well, it depends. Like, right now,

Hassan Piker is really captivating the space where a lot of people would be critical of me.

But right wing media loves to clip me up and go bananas. I recently said, I know what they're really mad at. So I recently said that as a woman who grew up in the Bible Bell, Sharia law or radical Islam is not a threat. Radical Christianity, fundamentalist Christianity is a far bigger threat to women, a far bigger threat to children, a far bigger threat in the United States of America. And they have gone bananas. And they don't get it. They don't understand that, like,

from my vantage point, the Republican politicians in the state of Oklahoma are about taking rights

not leaving anybody behind. But they're really mad about that, because I go after the religious right pretty hard. And that really rills them up. And what do you go back along? What happens when you go back? Because there must be people there who will agree with you on those times. Like, I have a ton of -- Oklahoma City is a city of a million people. It's purple. I have a ton of progressive friends. And I want to say to any of your listeners that are a blue dot in a red state,

you are the toughest liberals, progressives in this country, hands down and you understand, maga, more than all of the consultant class ever could combine. And so I have a ton of just great progressive friends, great Democrat friends, that Democratic friends that throw fundraisers for

politicians and they always lose. But we try. And so there's a great community in Oklahoma City.

But now it looks like some of these states are turning. And Iowa looks like the handsome man is up, right? There's a lot of people that are pushing very hard this time. I know there's all these hopes and dreams to take Texas, or Iowa, or whatever states they happen to be. And again,

“I don't trust polling necessarily. But it looks kind of better than it ever has, correct?”

It does. But I have so much PTSD, Cara, from 2024. You remember the poll in Iowa that you'll come along around. I was like, oh, yeah. And then, you know, we all wake up, you know, it's heartbreak hotel. We're all devastated. And so I am very adamant that we not listen to a poll at all, that we assume that this is uphill barefoot in the snow, the whole way. And I assume that they're

going to try to do all kinds of interference from all always they can. And I just feel like only

we can save us. And the turnout has to be so massive that it's too big to rig and that we send a message to the Supreme Court to those in Congress, to the oligarchs that we are still in power. We are the guardrail. Yeah. It doesn't, doesn't feel like it on the ground. How often do you go back now? You live in New York. You know, correct? I live in New York. Let's see. The last time I was back there was February. So a while. Oh, no, no, no. I went back in June. I went to an Oklahoma City Thunder game.

Oh, good. Okay. And what the mood was, what? Still pro-trop still. He's killing it. It's different. It's weird. It's, you know, when you get into a city like Oklahoma City, it's so spread out. And so there's not like this mood that you can tap into. If you well, my friends that are progressive, you feel the mega policy so much more in a red state. You really feel, because you know, you have an abortion being in all of the politicians are

picking on all the people that you want to protect. But they get hopeful and I always got hopeful

when I, when I live there, that, okay, maybe the worms can turn. But they recently had a gubernatorial race with a Trump backed candidate in the Republican primary runoff. And then kind of a more moderate Republican with a Trump back guy won. Some of my friends were kind of upset. But the crazy, remember our school board guy, Ryan Walters. Oh, yeah. He's gone. There's whole kind of manner of nonsense around him, right? Or something like that. Yeah. He's, that guy's

nuts. Like every time I would get on social media care, he's in his car filming from his car talking

“about porn and gay sex and trans people. And I'm like, what is happening? What's going on here?”

Why are you talking about this? Right. In your car posting it on the internet? Right. Yeah. I found that unusual. But he's gone. Correct. He's gone. Yeah. Yeah. So you're still sort of batting down the fucking hatches, essentially. Like, no, no one shall pass that kind of not today vatches, essentially. Yeah. I do not trust these people. I don't trust the electorate after 2024. And I feel like we have to do reputational brand damage to the Republican brand their liars. Well,

never trickle down. They treat the military like shit. They always have, look no further than the USS Lincoln. All of this notion that they're so fiscally responsible. Look at the $40 trillion in debt. What do we have to show for it? This notion that they are pro-life went every single policy that they undo all the EPA deregulations, the food deregulations, the vaccine, non-sense, leads to deaths. And so I always say the Republican party is a death cult. And we need to do

start decades like they have. They have started decades of propaganda lying to the public about their brand and we need to start undoing it. It's going to take a few political cycles. And so I'm hopeful

“that you see progressive, progressive's winning around the country. I think that's great for the party.”

And I'm hopeful that we can get a democratic party that returns to that of FDR. Are you worried

So I'm kind of mystified by it because we win elections with addition, not subtraction. And so I'm mystified that they aren't more opening of, look, we understand the DSA is organized, we understand that they are winning races. And they're welcome in this tent. And in the districts that the people voted for them, it's so dismissive of democratic voters in places where these DSA candidates won to say they're not a part of the democratic party. Well, that's news to

those voters, isn't it? Isn't that kind of just casting them aside? Magical would never do that.

They would never, ever do that. So I can't understand why. Well, they did, they didn't have a lot of anti-Trumpers, or they would call them rhinos. You know, they did toss out a few, right? Like they did like toss out people, they might have worked with, possibly. And in fact, pillar, not just toss them out, but really attack them. Yeah, I'm just hopeful that I would prefer progressive candidate when, but I'm not so precious about my vote. I would always go vote for

corporate Democrat 12 times out of 10 because that's going to be much better than a Magical Republican. And I know this because I lived in a state where Magical Republicans had a super majority in the education is 50th out of all 50 states. 50th ranked place for women to live in the

United States of America is the state of Oklahoma. And these are Republican policies. These are

“Magical policies. So I don't know. I'm disappointed about that, but I think that some disagreement”

is healthy, but in the run-up to these midterms, like adults, a lot of it centers around of Dulow said, he won. He's a great candidate. He says, I'm not DSA. I'm a capitalist. Well, so does Elizabeth Warren and people still, you know, that was Warren said. That indeed she is, by the way. We need to get, we need to get these people elected in my opinion. All right. We've got a lot to get to. So let's dig in Jennifer. But first, President Trump is messing with

maps again. He signed an executive or a renaming Lake Ontario like America following a breakdown in trade talks between US and Canada, Google Maps has since adopted Lake America for US users while Canadians can still see Lake Ontario and users elsewhere, see both names. On the other hand, Matt Quest has reached the top navigation app in the US after saying it would not change the name

of Lake Ontario. Canada has hit back with a giant Lake Ontario now and always billboard near the

US border. Let's, but listen to a clip of Trump's thought process. I don't know what it would ever. Well, changing the name. So if you think about it, we have a golf, and we have a lake. Now, what we need is a notion. So maybe we'll have to change the name of the Atlantic and or the Pacific. I mean, I don't know what's wrong with them. Apple is weighing the Trump administration said they're going to change its soon. I'm not, that's really depressing if Apple does that

on the same thing. None of these people have to. So should Canada rename Lake Michigan on their maps. I mean, this is ridiculous and stupid, but thoughts, thoughts, Jennifer? I mean,

“pardon me, thinks that the the best way to mess with these people is to stupid, little low,”

and I think it would be hilarious if we're like, okay, we're changing Lake Michigan to Lake Obama on our side. That's what we're going to call it. You know, and just because this is like a step ahead. Exactly. But this is so stupid. I'm not disappointed in him because he disappoints me all day every day. That's just in a ubiquitous part of my life as an American. The Google of it all, just like come on. I did go for Mexico to go for America.

And they did, they need to stop. So did Apple by the way. I know. And it's these, and you told me this once we podcasted together several months ago, and it's stuck with me. I write about it in my book. This quote where you said these tech guys believe in nothing. If Kamala would have won, they would have their pronouns in their bios and a pride flag. And that to me is like, that nihilism is what's feeding all of this. What do you, is there anything to do? I put out a

thing of how to get Google Maps off your phone and to switch your search engine to duck.go or acocias another one or Yahoo, whatever. You can switch to Microsoft and Bing and things like that. You do have limited choices and a lot of these things with mail. You know, you do get locked into these systems where I was trying to show people, you don't have to use Google Maps. You don't have

“to use Apple Maps. Apple is not changing it, but it did change the Gulf of America. You know what I mean?”

They go whatever they call it, the Gulf of whatever the fuck that is. The Gulf of the Gulf. And tipped shit. Right. It's, it's a, what do you think is be, like you can change stuff, but the fact of the matter is the fact that they're doubling down at the end of the rain of Neuro, like he's fiddling, Rome is burning and you're still kissing up to him. Shows, like I'm much of what it shows because some pushback like Disney did around the FCC or some pushback,

These tech people. It's like, why are you such trad wives to this man? Why are you so submissive?

Like, why not stand up for your customers? This guy has a high 20% approval rating. Why not stand up for your customers? If they all wind up together, Zuckerberg and Tim Cook and Basis. And just said, enough. We're done. You're old. You're a dementia duck right now.

“And we have dementia duck. That's what I consider lame duck, dementia duck.”

And they need it, but I don't understand it. The only thing I can relate to is, I don't know how to watch one of these Mormon documentaries. Do you do that in your free time? I do. And so there was this guy. He was, of course, the Colt leader. And all of these husbands that like worship this guy, they're the ones who made all the money. And then they were

giving this guy who was just lazy. Like, here's our wife and here's our daughters. And they were

so submissive to this guy. The money, everything, and I thought, oh my God, that's really what's happening with these manga people, with even the oligarchs. They would just do whatever Trump says. I believe I have heard that Tim Cook likes Donald Trump, like some personally. Like, that's the thing. I've heard it from so many people. I can't believe. I mean, it's interesting

“because I'm pretty, I think the job's families horrified. But I think they're horrified by these”

behaviors. I doubt Steve Jobs. Everyone said, oh, he would have done it. I'm like, you know, he wouldn't know. But he would not this, not this level of, he wasn't a submissive person. So that would have offended him on some level. And he did think about customers and companies like Apple used to think of customers. You're absolutely right. They don't think of customers right now. And I know they're like, you know, you sort of that Michael Jordan quote, you know, Republicans and Democrats,

both by sneakers. I urge people to shift off of Google Maps. I urge people to shift off of Google search. It's very easy. It's very hard to get away from the entire system. I not use Gemini, use Claude, you know, but each of them have a problematic issue. And that's the question is, which do you have more of an issue with? You know, a anthropic fought back against the Trump

“administration. If that's your side, you should do that, you know, and that kind of stuff. And it's”

just as good search, by the way, FYI. I think that the biggest message the electorate needs to send. And I say this in my podcast all the time. It's to the Supreme Court. It's to Republicans and Congress, even people in their own party, if you're a Democrat who haven't fought hard enough for me, they haven't fought hard enough. And also to the all of the tech CEOs, all the Fortune 500 companies, we are your customer. You have nothing without the American consumer. You have nothing.

You don't have all these subsidies Elon Musk without our taxes being paid in. And that's a message that we need to send to now this new extension of the federal government, which is the oligarchy. And we need to send them as crystal clear of a guardrail that we're sending the other powers that be. Yeah, absolutely. Apple does this, which I could completely expect them to do. It's really a really a black eye on the legacy. And, you know, 1984, I was just watching that the

famous commercial. It's just so against all what Apple was about, which is customers and freedom and not being pushed down by the autocrats. It's really quite something to see and grow tasks on many levels and sad to watch. You know, I wrote specifically, Sunder Pachai, who I liked very much, just his behavior. I don't even know this person anymore. What Cara, you've been so inside on all of this. I'm fascinated by the evolution of these people, whether it's the person

you just mentioned or Marka Rubio. Is it, is it, is it? Little Marka, right? Little Marka. Is it that when you go against your intuition and you cave to your worst impulses, does it break you? And because I see all of these people as being broken and having almost a billionaire psychosis. You know, I think they feel like victims. I think they, they can't, they feel like victims. They think they're victims. You know, everyone surprises me. Some people surprise me on the

upside. Some people surprise me. Most of them on the downside. And like there's one person, like I said, it is, but I thought would go completely, like would suck up to Meg if they need to end didn't. Like, I'm sort of like, he wrote me something to this morning and I'm like, "God, he's become such a liberal lesbian. It's fascinating." You know, so it's really, it depends

on the person. But for the most part, it's about money and power and you never know what's going

on inside companies. And in the case of Singapore Chia, suspect he's deeply insecure about his position despite a very good management of the company. He's got Sergei Brenn, the founder, probably breathing down his neck, who's become super maga. And so, you know, when he also,

went to the airport to defend immigrants during that first Trump administration. And I was like, "Hey, Sundar, you're an immigrant. You might want to say something." And he was like, "Well, I'm not from, you know, I'm Muslim." And I'm like, "I don't really care." Like, and we had a lunch,

“and I said, "You should say something." Like, and you just couldn't do it, they're, they're mostly”

faceless, is what I find. And then it's easy to give in and say, shareholder value and the things they could do to us. And we want to fight a sweet defense department stuff. But let me just say, it's only going to go on for so long. And then it's going to be fucking hell to pay. And if you think the Democrats aren't going to take it out on you, you, I think you're, sadly mistaken, because they are, and they should, and I will bother them to do so. Anyway, we're going to

be speaking of leopards at my face. British far-right commentator, Milo Yenopolis, has been deported to the UK after ICE agents arresting him at the New Orleans airport last week. GHS said Milo legally entered the US in 2019, but quote, "choased to overstay his welcome." This is not uncommon, by the way. Milo, first of all, made a name for himself as an editor at Breitbarty later intern for Marjorie Taylor Green. He's also worked for Kanye. What a resume. Milo has been a vocal

supporter of Trump's immigration crackdown calling for the deportation of millions. Very vocaly, and very, I mean, these ironic tweets that he had. Meanwhile, he's the person who got him.

“I think it was correct, Laura Lumer, and it's taking full credit. That tag for the deportation saying”

she reported his immigration status to the ICE and FBI. Between Milo and the tape brothers, were currently fighting extradition to the UK on rape and human trafficking charges. America just exporting. It's far right. Influencer problem across the pond. I mean, what, what did you make of this? Now, he's a backer of Marjorie Taylor Green, who's no longer a backer of Trump, who's no long, who's against Lumer. It's, it's, it's, it's MAGA on MAGA fighting happening here.

But your thoughts on Milo besides couldn't have happened to a nicer guy? Exactly. I, I mean, I, this kind of stuff when you see the people who just went all chips in on being cruel to everybody else and the rules that, you know, apply to everybody else don't apply to me. And then, you know, what they voted for, what they campaigned on happens to them. But an interesting thing about Milo, he's like a non-practicing gay. Yeah. He's, he's a gay man. But he says he's, he's no longer

having gay sex. So just that one will happen with him. So we're, just from that, and that's a accomplishment. We have a nut. We're dealing with a nut here. But I, I just don't ever understand

this, this cultish worship of Donald Trump. I'll just, I will never understand how people

looked at him, just not only physically, but once he opens his mouth longer than three or four minutes and thought, this is a hill on din-on. And it was to the turns of tens of millions of people. But I think there's going to be so much inviting and so much more MAGA on MAGA cannibalism, which I love and find quite delicious. I think, you know, whoever is leaking all of these crazy

“letters from Natalie Harp, the bunny boiler, you know that, remember the maybe, the bunny boiler?”

Of course I do. You know that it's somebody in there that's trying to sabotage the bunny boiler. So I think it's the most toxic work environment. I think the culture, who is your vote for that? The bunny boiler? Leaker? Oh, I kind of think, I'm kind of thinking Steven Miller. Yeah, me too. Yeah. I think it's Steven Miller. I think it's, I think it's Miller, because I think he probably thinks I need to get her out of the way. So I can be the bunny boiler. But you know,

he's always going to look like Steven Miller. Yeah, I think we can do about that enough.

Crunch really into aesthetics, you know. And so, Natalie is a much better looking. Let's be clear. I mean, that's not even close. Right. Yes, still, she's fine. Still, when she's not moving, it's fine. So what do you imagine is going to happen here with all these people? I mean, it seems like there's a Marjorie Taylor green side and a Laura Loomer side, right? That's, and then Megan Kelly's on the outs and so's Tucker. So is a bunch of them. Like,

and then Mark 11, it's somewhere else. So he's fighting Megan, Kelly, Africa. Anyway. What did she got micro penis mark? Yes, that was she remembering? She's keeping it up with you. I was like, that's pretty good girl. I was still thinking you're not, but credit regretted to do.

I think what's happening is we always have to be cautious about what this movement is incubating.

So the tea party incubated maga and magas a million times worse than the tea party. And so what is maga incubating? And on one side, there's a lot of Christian nationalism. So if you look at Pete Heggsess pastor Doug Wilson, complete lunatic hand-made tail, batshit crazy stuff, right? But then if you look at Tucker and Marjorie and Thomas Massey, I've been calling this for a

They know that this guy is completely lost it. And they are starting this America first stuff.

And I'm very fearful of it because in flyover states, like an Oklahoma, it's going to hit hard.

“Because it's like, okay, we're $40 trillion in debt. What do we have to show for it?”

Do we have a bunch of great public transportation? We have great public schools. We have great universities that people can go get a free education with, healthcare. No, we have all of this debt from these wars and from not taxing these billionaires that we cannot afford enough. And so Marjorie and Tucker are doing this whole thing like maga abandoned us. And it's so clever because they're going to keep these triple trumpers like the hardcore

cultists. Oh, Trump got crazy and he abandoned us, but we're still maga because it's such a part of

their identity. I mean, so many people that troll me online, they're like their avatar, is the fight fight fight assassination photo. And so I think that I'm very fearful of this because they're younger, smarter, more the machinations that they are going to have. And the problem that I have with Tucker and Marjorie is I think sometimes they say good things because they agree with us most of the time, but I think at the end of the day, there's a lot of xenophobia, a lot of homophobia,

a lot of Islamophobia, a lot of anti-Semitism, anti-Semitism with all of them. Yeah, absolutely. They hate her. I don't trust them at all. It's not me neither. Some of them was like, you know, oh, I don't know. Some degree, I go, she's still crazy. She's still anti-trant. She's still like, she's appealing. That is true. That is true in that regard because she's saying things that are just sensible. Did you see what she did? So you know this Angie Nixon who's running for Senate and

Florida, Laura Lomar just sent like the most disgraceful racist tweet on the plane. And Marjorie's Hayler Green pops up and takes out Laura Lomar and defends Angie Nixon. And I was just like, okay, well, where has I, has I came defended her, has Chuckles defended her, looking around and crickets from them. And so I just, I'm worried about this next iteration of my dad. She's very appealing. Yeah, she's very, she's very cany. She's a very cany person. And maybe

parts of her have changed, but I don't trust him. Exactly. I don't trust Chuckles. Even when Tucker says, obviously intelligent person, all obviously intelligent people, by the way. You know, the difference is, and I think the point you're making, is most like P-text that there's a moron. He's a, he's a toxic moron. But Marjorie Shellington Green is not. Tucker is not. Massey definitely is not. These are smart, smart, cany people. And mostly people around

Trump right now are morons pretty much. Or he turns them into morons like Scott Best Center. Well, Howard Lopnik is a moron. So it's an interesting, you know, they're much more dangerous in a

different way, or, or powerful. If you, if you were for them, anyway, that's a good point.

Okay, Jennifer, we're going to quick break. We come back when it's Paltrow Pospons a dinner with Sam Alman. Support for the show comes from Upwork. In a world where AI is changing every role in every

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table and answers those customer questions. So your team can get some rest. Go to KLAVIo.com/bestfriends. Jennifer, we're back with more news. I know you like dinner parties, and I know you have like this incredible interior design sense in him business. But Gwyneth Paltrow is postponed a private off-the-record dinner or Hampton's home with open AI CEO Sam Altman after plans leaked and sparked an online backlash, writers and other creatives criticized the dinner as tone-to-f,

although probably would have been exquisite. Given growing fears about AI disrupting the entertainment industry, Paltrow mocked the controversy by posting parody dinner invitations honoring characters like Shrek and Jessica Rabbit. But the real event was postponed with no new

“date announced. Paltrow's venture fund reportedly invested in open AI in 2023. I think that is”

correct. Did you get an invite? I did not. I was not invited. No. What about you? No. I know we're pretty well. But you know it's interesting that she gets, well, she attracts a lot of controversy. Just by opening her mouth, essentially. Sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly. What did you think of this? What did you imagine? I thought this was very much harsh. She was very much into funding. She sort of like a, you know, you could compare her to Ben Affleck or who she dated, by the way.

You can compare it to a lot of these people that just, you know, just do these deals and just don't, they're just deal makers. She does get unnecessarily intact at the same time completely toned up to the moment. Yes. But I see it a little bit more intentional than you do. She had some AI defense contractor on her podcast. And she basically says, you know, my husband's so progressive, he has all the sympathy and he's an amazing person. And then she's like, but I'm a moderate,

I feel nothing. And you know, when you're at that level of star, that if you step and wait into politics, and there's plenty of time that that could have been deleted or edited from the episode, as you and I both know, and it wasn't. And I just don't think that's an accident. And then there was the advertisement she did for the Israeli pinhouse. And now this, and I just think if somebody shows you who they are, believe them. I mean, she's in on, she's in on the oligarchy. But again,

it goes back to the, the one thing that connects us all in order for Gwyneth Paltrow, to be Gwyneth Paltrow. I used to love Gwyneth Paltrow, which all of her movies. I mean, we're the same age, a group, and just thought, God, she's gorgeous. She's such an incredible actress. We're all in this kind of thing together. And we are her customer base, whether it be for films, for Goop, or whatever.

And I just don't see these tech guys as being even remotely our friends. I mean, I've always thought,

since I really started looking into this. It was never the immigrants. I always knew. It was never the immigrants that didn't take people's jobs. It's always these AI bots. And I just think there's Gwyneth Paltrow has, the thing she's done is a little bit too in your face, and it makes me think, she has no idea. She's so removed from what it's, it's like to be a working class American, what it's like to, like, pay for daycare, and then worry about health insurance. And these things

“that people have, she just seems completely out of touch. Yeah, I think, I think she's very smart.”

I smell it. This is not a dumb woman. No, I think she is smart. She's like deeply smart, actually, which is, I know people will push back, is it, but I'm telling you, very clever, and very, you know, I would say, and I'm very good entrepreneur, Goop, whatever you think of Goop,

and a lot of people critical about, I get all the criticisms, by the way, and was she's put her foot

in it, lots and lots and lots and lots of times, like for sure. She certainly attracts that, too, at the same time. But what's interesting about it is, there's a real struggle in Hollywood going on with wanting to embrace and try the AI, because I think it was, what was it? Scorsese, one of them, was like, I'm going to try some stuff, Ben Affleck, Cells and AI company to Netflix, right? You know, there's a little bit of, not a misogyny here. It's just the men do it a lot.

There's a group of people that really want to embrace AI and don't want to take responsibility for it.

And I think that was perfect, and they said, oh, she's being paid. I don't think she's being good.

I think she really does think this. And I once had a conversation with her where she's like, if I, I'm curious or interested in tech, people get mad, so I'm not going to say anything. And then when she did, she got in trouble, and she was right. I thought that was ridiculous. And what's hard here is that, you know, it's this sort of couple things, Hampton's out Alfresco dinner party, Gwyneth Paltrow, Sam. And you put them all together, and it is like,

“let them eat cake moment, right? Exactly. And that's what's missing the narrative.”

Not that she has to necessarily hide her interest in AI, which I think she should have as a business person. She should. But it's more like, can you not, like, I'm curious why she didn't get why this would be a problem. But I don't know. I just think when I put all of those things together, because I do believe she's smart. I agree with you. I think she's a smart person. It's not accidental. These aren't that many missteps. So why do this? Why, why and let it? I mean, I know the invite got out there,

but you don't have to assume it was going to, right? If you were her. Because you would of course, you would, especially Sam Alman. I mean, you know, that he's such a boogey man right now. I mean, it's which speaking of which did you ever watch that Tucker Carlson episode where Tucker, like, asked Sam Alman, if you killed one of his employees, did you see that? Yeah, that was not nice. That was nuts, right? That was nuts. He did not kill him. That was crazy. Yeah, that was crazy.

Honestly, you can tag Sam Alman for the right things. He did not kill people. Let me be clear here. Yeah, so that was just a nutty moment and right wing media that I went. But there is this anger towards people. And when you're sort of acting like a, you know, a French court here, you really, you're not editing yourself by keeping it to yourself, right? Like, why don't I just have a dinner with him and not make it a big deal and not make it a flex and go there and understand their stuff.

“Do a deal with them if you want to and accept the consequences of people thinking about you. But to”

that to me, it's like, I can't figure out why. I mean, she had to know it was popular. Of course she knew. Of course she knew. Then what's the plus? I don't know if it's to kiss ass. I mean, look, I think it's trickle down kiss assery. I mean, look at how these guys kiss Trump's ass. And now we have going to the powtrow kissing their ass. And it's just like shit's rolling downhill at this point. And I think a lot of people that want to be in that world don't get the fundamental

anger that we feel a lot of us, the majority of us, when we see these people that have

incredible wealth because of this country, because of its innovation and all of all of the things

and being an American and doing business in America gives you that they went and kissed the ass of this guy who is indiscriminately an arbitrarily killing American citizens who has built concentration camps, who's dismantling all the stuff that we hold dear, the pond, all the gold, the Lake America, the gold, they completely are so detached from what we're all feeling about this. And I just to me, my interpretation of her during this, it felt very flagrant.

It felt very in your face. Yeah, it was wondering. I think it was the word Al fresco, the god. Would you go if you were invited? I would. I got it this. No, totally. I'd be like skunk, skunk, meat, garden, garden, and we'd get rid of ruin, my reputation. Really? No, I'd be like, "Hi, I'm going to say everything that happened here." I'm keeping none of it to myself. Sometimes people invite, eat things, you know, some of these tech people. Like, you know, I'm completely

indiscreet. And they're like, "Really? You can't just come. I'm like, "You know, I'm going to have to talk about it." So just invite me, folks. I'll come, but I'll completely throw you right under the bus. I will turn the bus. I will report it accurately. What happened there? And I bet the food would have

“been delicious. In any case, I'd rather go with Ina garden. That's what I say. Go with Ina garden. So much”

better than the drinks are better. All right, Jennifer, let's go on a quick break. We come back. We'll be talking to a special guest. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow, none of them talk to each other. That's where Odu comes in. And all in one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory

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After a new year, what is the plan? To find out everything about your father

“by a group of young developers with an interest in the game, he's ready to take the Oularb.”

We'll find out more about it soon. And we'll find out the summer of their lives. Jennifer, we're back. We were talking earlier about having PTSD from the 2020-24 election and worried about the dam's winning this time. Well, we're going to talk to someone who just had a big win. Nearly a year after she was fired by the Washington Post over comments she made on social media following the assassination of Charlie Kirk. Karen Etia has won her fight to get her job back.

At the time, the posts that are comments harmed the paper's reputation and integrity created

safety risks for its staff and violated its social media policy. But last week, an independent

arbitrator ruled that the post did not have sufficient cause to fire Karen. The paper was ordered to reinstate Karen and give her back pay. Meanwhile, Adam O'Neill, the opinion editor who fired Karen announced, and July, he was leaving the post. We're recording this on his final day at the paper. Goodbye, you moron. Anyway, Karen, Etia's joining us now. Welcome, Karen. Thanks, Cara. Super excited to talk to you. I know. So, I told me you were at the post 11 years and we've known

each other quite a few years in my wife worked with you in this section when she was working there. And you were the editor who I had Jamal Khashoggi. Talk about what's happening. You've got your job back, but will you be returning? But the post has not set anything. It's said it respects the arbitration process, but did not elaborate. So, as of today, my team is in touch with the post. I can say now that I am still fully expecting to be reinstated back to my former title and position

and waiting on the Washington Post to sort of comply with that. So, would it comply me,

“let you in the building? Oh, I mean, I think though, but they've let me in the building, all of that.”

But ultimately, you know, I was a columnist. I was a writer at the time of my

wrongful dismissal. I am sure the question on everybody's mind in my mind as well is will I be allowed to write in the Washington Post's opinion section? Right, please. I'm clear, at the moment. I'm clear, so they may not let you write. We will see, Karen, what did you say about Charlie Kirk that they deemed so provocative they had to terminate you? So, actually what I said about it was me about Charlie Kirk in the aftermath of Charlie Kirk. Yes, I was commenting more about

the political discourse that was happening because if people remember there's so many folks who were talking about, I mean, they saw the graphic video and of course, like his death was horrific and violent. But so many people were going to these empty cliches in my opinion about this is not who we are political violence. There's no place here, all of that, which I just tend to find, you know, empty, personally irritating, especially considering that that day and a lot of

people forgot. And there was a school shooting in Colorado literally the same exact time. The couple months earlier was the assassination of Melissa Hortman, the Democratic lawmaker in Minnesota and her husband, dead due to gun violence and due to a white man who shot and killed them and their dog. So for me personally, I was looking at the Charlie Kirk shooting in the context of the reaction of the reaction of and of what America was showing itself to be and in particularly

when it comes to white men who killed people. You're your columnist, right? And what you said was and you could have actually written this, refusing to tear, let me read it, just so people know, refusing to tear my clothes and smear ashes on my face in performative mourning for a white man that a spouse violence is not the same as violence. It seemed, I mean, I get people were upset at the moment, obviously. But would you talk a little bit about why you pushed so hard? Also, why did you

push so hard to do this? I remember you and I talking and I thought when the buyouts were happening

“that maybe you should take them because I thought they were going to target you easily,”

especially with this new guy coming in and you said, "No, I'm going to stick there, Cara." And I admire you for that. And then indeed, that's exactly why they've waited for a moment to get you in some fashion. You know, to this day, I still think about my decision-making process.

"No, I'm not going to give up." Not only, it was beyond just my job. Like, it also was the fact

“that, yes, I was the last black full-time staff columnist left after those buyouts. And I think”

for me, I just wasn't really interested in making things easy. Did I expect that they were going to fire me with this? No, not at all. But, I mean, I think for me, I just felt like, and it's just why I'm in terms of being a martial artist, being, I think it's just a character trait of mine that I wasn't going to give it so easily. So, and I saw that the termination that it was specifically when I saw that they terminated me because they claimed I was disparaging

white men. So, they accused me of being racist against white men and violating their social media policies. I was like, this is absolutely absurd. It's going to be an annoying fight, but there's

no way, there's no way I was not going to fight it. So, what I first saw, the termination letter,

and particularly when they accused me of such a grudious act, they said that I was guilty of Grossman's conduct that I was endangering my colleagues, and also that I was disparaging white men based on the race and gender. I just thought it was so absurd that I couldn't not challenge

“this, no matter how long it would take. A lot of people lost their jobs because of this, and I think”

it's interesting how the pendulum swung from, you know, we're so anti-cancill culture. We have to do away with woke point one. And then when the other side got power, the cancel culture is out of control right now with maggot. They are canceling everybody and everything, and I think you were a part of that, do you have any information about other people like you that lost their jobs that are now

being vindicated for exercising the first amendment? For sure. I mean, we're seeing the settlement

cases in terms of university professors who are getting reinstated, who are getting huge payouts. I mean, I think part of this is, and it's interesting. I mean, this is beyond to me cancel culture. I've been saying this is magas annihilation culture, right? I mean, using whatever sort of weapons they can to come after journalists, academics, even I was hearing about someone who was actually arrested over Charlie Kirk comments. I mean, just a disproportionate response, right? And that

comes from me, particularly because in my case, the Washington Post or whether it's universities, journalism academia, the whole point of our institutions is to we are trained as supposed to sort of take a step back, be objective, collect facts, be above emotion, even for me and my posts. There was a reason why I didn't comment very directly on the breaking news about what was happening in Charlie Kirk. I wasn't speculating about the news or about motives or anything like that,

because that's my training as a journalist, is to wait until the facts come in. And this is the post academia that they succumbed to the hysteria at the very least and at the very worst, being

“accomplices of magas and going after people. So do you think the post can return to what it once was?”

I mean, you brought in Jamal Khashoggi. They just very much a backer of that, as you recall, at the time it was murdered. Do you think they can return to it? Well, he's still at the home. You know, I don't think that. But you know, it's a lot of people have been asking, I mean, about this question of return, can the post go back and you asking me, can I can you go back to the post? And, you know, the way that I think about it and perhaps again, I'm a besieged idealist, but this

is what helps keep me going. Right now I'm wearing red. All right, now this is a color of the deal. The Washington Post Guild that helps that fought for me to get my drawback. I would not have been able to challenge this. It wasn't for the fact that I was a union member, filing of grievance. You know, hiring Jamal Khashoggi. I hired Jamal Khashoggi. I'm saying all that to say, like the Washington Post. Yes, we have management that has been making terrible and reckless decisions,

but I see the post as more than just them. I like I recognize that I'm also going back to people who fought for me, people who saw the some of the news. They're breaking a lot of really breaking a lot of news to Trump administration. You know, people are going after them for recent

reporting on the military and Iran right now. So, you know, I always want to distinguish

any institution that is only as good as the people and as the journalists that I am the Washington

Like, I think the editorial sector, the news section is doing great job. They've broken a lot of really excluding about the Lincoln Memorial, the Kennedy Center, you know, the reflecting pool, but a lot about military right now. The Lincoln, they were way ahead on that. They seem to be poking at Trump from really hard in the news section. In fact, sort of back, you know, I wrote

Matt a note saying, great job. This is amazing. And two of the people that were involved in

your attempted differentiation of administration are gone, will Lewis and Adam. It's kind of interesting. Like, I can't tell what's happening there besides your ability to like cast like something like there's just bad garm up for those two in terms of what happened here and the shift. So, you don't know. I mean, what can I say? I was hoping to be able to say good night and good luck to Adam, but I don't think. Yeah, you don't get to go on the office. I don't get to go

“in the office yet. Yeah. Bye, bye, goodbye, goodbye. But sure. I mean, you know, honestly, I think it's a”

bigger lesson in terms of this whole, this whole political wave that we're seeing. Like, it doesn't pay off to do the bidding of censorship and oppression. You will not be protected. You lose your jobs and your credibility by going against people's rights. And the powerful people still discard you anyway. Yes, I lost my job, but I'm back. That's trick. But over the weekend,

like Donald Trump said NBC's Kristen Welker, it's always a woman he attacks would be reported to

the FCC for a bucrapunishment for comments he didn't like about it. I think she said it was mixed. It was a mixed record. It was it was factually correct. What's your message then to fellow journalists in this moment in terms of that? And I was glad you thought, but I was worried as you know, I was worried for you and said that. Like, they're going to find something Karen. I think a good find that, you know, because I know how these assholes think, right? They're trying to find

any way to attack you. But which message do fellow drones? Because it continues. It doesn't stop. And it's often a woman. It's often a woman of color. Like, you think of Rachel Scott at ABC. You think of, like, Maggie A. Roman, it's not a woman color, but still it's just a Caitlin Collins. It's the same kind of attacks all over the place. I just hope that this is proof of standing your ground if you can. Of course. I mean, I took a very calculated risk. I'm not

“going to pretend that this year wasn't hard. But I think it's another lesson in these”

mostly men are extremely thin skins, right? And I think that the facade of strength and what they're trying to project is is weaker than it really is. And again, thank God that we still have a functioning court system and legal system that allows us to fight back. So I think if anything, it particularly for black women, I think the message and people see my story is like, fight back, suit, make it harder. At the very least, I recognize that I still could lose. I mean, I'm still not

out of the woods. But at the very least, it's a message to stand not just for me, but the folks who are still at the post, the members with the guild, other journalists, that at the very least, you can see that I'm willing to stand up for our profession even when it's tough. Look, Jamacca shall keep died for being able to write. I mean, I'm worried about a job in each chart.

“Let's paint its compared to what true. The journalism is life and death. You know, I'm fighting”

back sometimes you win and when he feels good. Yeah, but what is your first column for the post going to be about? Do you have any idea if they accepted? Yeah, if. I definitely think there's there's a column to be had on fighting back and about, um, about, yeah, about censorship. I mean, I'm free market. Free markets and the personal, you know, fighting for your own liberties. Right. So we'll see. Yeah, that's a brand for what he wants, right? He wants you to write

about liberties and free markets and the ability to say what you want. The marketplace of ideas for markets include unions. Yeah. All of that. Yeah. So we'll just see. All right, Jennifer, give a last question. Yeah. Final question for the layman that consumes news like me. I now, when I'm reading the news and it's aggregated and I see something from CBS. I meet him like, or if I see something from the washing the post, I'm like, uh, and it's tainted this, this type of

um, partisan ownership, distinctly partisan ownership. What do you think that's doing to

journalism and to public trust and journalism? Because I'm a podcaster, but I always say I'm my podcast.

exile from the Washington Post, of course, you know, I joined Substack. Um, I was

writing freely. I saw, uh, how, and even when I was not being invited on table TV, mainstream media, it was the independent media that kept going and kept platforming. So I do think that places, even when I was working that places, like the posts like mainstream media do have an image, a credibility problem and that there are alternative sources of information and ways that people can be courageous outside of that space in ways that they can't be inside, you know, those spaces.

“So I feel like, uh, I feel like, and we're just dealing with a lot more, um, I think podcasters”

and independent, I think you're a part of the news ecosystem. There's always been news anchors.

You don't actually go and gather the news. They read and they determine what is important to their audiences. I mean, it's like someone described it as a town cryers, right? It's a town cryer, too. Yeah, with all those curses and cables. A digital town cryers. So I, I always see this as an ecosystem, but that being said, I mean, mainstream news is not adapting. I mean, not adapting fast enough, actively resisting, changing, and if they want to be relevant in the next six months to a year,

to be honest, um, they're going to have to understand that the voices, you know, like,

carers are like, mine that this is what people come to. People want to be able to trust

people. And so, um, we'll just see, again, like I said, well, they allowed me to maintain a voice

“the post to be continued. They fucking better, Karen. I'm on this now. I think you're a badass. Absolutely.”

Anyway, um, Karen is wonderful. People can find you on Substack and the Washington Post. They better, like, they better sack up Jeff Bezos. Sack up Jeff Bezos. Let Karen have her paste. She's a great voice and we need lots of different ones as we go forward if you believe in that as you say, you do. Anyway, Karen, thank you so much and congratulations. Um, and I really appreciate your fight. Me too. Thank you. Thank you, guys. He's in Karen the best, Jennifer. We're going to take a quick break.

We'll be back for Wins and Fails. Okay, Jen, let's hear some Wins and Fails. All right, Karen, my win is a judge in Texas that said,

“no more bands on drag shows. That's BS. And he said, I have a simple solution for this.”

If you don't like drags, drag queens, drag shows, simply don't go. Which is what I've been saying all along, but to hear a federal judge in Texas say this, I thought that was such a win. It's so simple. I love it. Excellent. And my fail is a bomb squad was deployed in Washington, D.C. Shut down an entire block over a $600 sex toy. Mm-hmm. And I said, they're my player. I mean, was that near your neighborhood? So Karen, my question is, was that yours? It was. That was so, we were laughing

our asses of all that we were like, bomb squad, them were like, text toy. Like, it was like one of these moments of our in the neighborhood, their room was laughing. Yeah, yeah, it was mine. I have to say, it was like, I'm really sorry. D.C. It's already a goal. So let's be a thing. Yeah, let's be a thing. Now, let me spend six hundred dollars on the toys anyway. That was, it was not a fail. That was a win in a weird way. All right, I'll go next. You know, there's so many kind of nice wins. I do,

I'm really loving all this sort of love of Dully Barton, because it makes you feel like good, good America. But I like that the National Airports are going to be named after her. I like that. I know it's a small stupid. It's like, not the biggest deal in the world. Someone said they should change the call sign to triple D. And if you're leaving there, you're departing. You're departing. I just like the whole thing. And, you know, Tennessee's a problem. And so is that governor. But

you just, it was good. But I think more to the point, it sort of spurred me like someone who followed,

She raised $10 million for women and girls. Issues. And then Melinda Gates, French Gates,

“came in and doubled the amount for these women's theories to $20 million. I heard it was”

flawless. It looked fantastically fun. You know, Olivia Rodrigo speaking of celebrities does not have to do this. She could just sing and shut up essentially. She has been outspoken. She's a wonderful artist, by the way. And she really is kind of channeling Dully Barton that regard. Like every time you turn around, there's something else she gave money to. I really liked Olivia Rodrigo did this because there is a cost to a young woman on the upswing in a career. Doing this in Dully Barton did the same

thing with some of her songs about women and girls early in her career. She took a risk by not selling her song to Elvis. She did all kinds of things. So I really appreciated a more to Olivia Rodrigo.

But I'm glad Melinda did this and doubled the amount because she has the means. It's always women

who are doing this thing, whether it's but Mackenzie Scott or Lorraine Powell Jobs. You know, this is who does these things. And I really appreciate it. I just feel like, you know, women have just got to take over. Like someone wrote me like, "Metriarcha has to start like yesterday to some fashion." But it felt really nice in that regard. So those are mine. Okay Jennifer, I'm going to pass the rain to you for a minute before we wrap up. You said you had something you wanted. So all

yours. Yes. So you may remember when you run, I've had it. We play a game called Had it or hit it. Yeah. So I'm going to list if you think it means fuck, right? Hit it means not necessarily fuck. Mind in the gutter carrot. It means that yeah, I'll hit that. It doesn't mean you'll

“fuck it. But it means we could like it. You need to get laid to not carrot.”

Okay, I'm in San Francisco. All right, Cara, I had it or hit it. The bunny boiler Natalie Harp says a strange thing I'm going to say. I am like, I haven't had it yet. I want more. I want to know more. What a strange relationship. Like I want to know more about her and what her, probably is garden variety, weirdo, stalker or kind of thing. But it's really an interesting weird relationship. And it's, you know, years from now, historians will plummet and understand it better.

But I want to know more about what's happening with this young woman. Like what I think is just homeschooled. And then Liberty University. I get it. I get it. But there's lots of people. It didn't end up like this. Like, and I also know it's going to end. That's, that's, I feel like it could, like, to go off the tracks. And I'm kind of here for it. Me too. Yeah, had it, had it, had it, had it, had it, had it, had it, had it, had it, had it, the DSA. You know, it's interesting because my son is kind of DSA adjacent. So I listen to a lot of stuff. He says, I'm, look, I think everyone should do what they want. I don't, I'm not like, I feel,

we had a good discussion about it. And he, you know, went a lot of the stuff is great. A lot of stuff, you know, Medicare for all. I'm caught up for that, you know, $25 minimum wage. I'm for that. Not as many wars. Yes, like, caught the deficit. Sure. Like, I just think sometimes, you know, and compared to the right, it, there's, to me, it's not the same thing. But I do think they need to stop with the sensoriousness. But I think the anti-Semitism is disturbing many times. Often, I saw a Bradley undergetting sort of pilloried. And I don't know if they were DSA people, but I'm, I'm not like in that. I don't think if we tell them,

they shouldn't call trans people names. They shouldn't be doing that. And even if you're angry, it is real. And I do think there's, there's an absolute lane for people who are supportive of Israel and Jewish people in this country and hate not new and that's okay. And shouldn't be attacked for that either. So I, I'm, I had certainly haven't had it with them. But I think, I think, you know, just, if you,

“if you want to convince people, hatred is not the way to go at the same time, some of these ideas are terrific.”

Yeah. Yeah. I saw the thing with, the message, let me just start with this. The message I, overall, get from DSA is one of universal human rights. But I saw, and Bradley Anderson's a friend of mine.

And he's incredible. He is a really, really great person. And I saw that. And I just, I don't like that.

The same with where I saw weiner in San Francisco. I think we need to be really cautious about our message, and I'm not DSA, but the, the, the message that we should all have on the left or center left or far left of universal human rights and making sure that we don't leave anybody behind. Okay. Next up, had it or had it life coaching or life coaches had it, predicated to ridiculous. It's fucking right there. There would be dead in 50 years. I think it's a whole thing. Like, I get it.

It's a whole world. And it's like all the household books. But I'm going to write one of those. I'm going to,

Okay. Here's the last one. Okay. Had it or hit it, cats, cats, the, the musical?

No, the, the, the felines, the animals. The animal, the jellicle ball was amazing.

Jellicle ball was okay. But what about that? I hated the musical cats. Um, uh, cats. I love cats. I have a cat. Yeah. You, how could you not be for cats? I'm four cats. I had cats, but you know, I had cats. I had, I had a cat, which I had cats. I don't get cats. I don't get cats. I don't know. I'm not hitting on ferrets. I mean, my house, where I rose my two older kids. And one, one time my son

“came home from school. I think it was a ferret or like, one of those animals. And I was like,”

out of this house immediately. Um, so I cats and dogs. I love, love, love, love, love, love. Me too. They're great. That's all I have for you. All right. Okay. Um, let me ask you a question. What is your latest last thing? Your name? Like, you have all these named cancels. I like dementia,

duck. I like that. What is your favorite new name? And can you just give people how you, how you

come on? Do they just pop into your head? They just come to me. I get worked up. Yeah. And then I just start going. And then it just the insults just come up. My favorite one lately is the bunny boiler, because it had been a while since I'd used that like when we were younger. And I remember in college when if there was a before cell phones, if you wanted to go, you know, hook up with somebody now you have to go screen scratch. And so would call kind of a bunny boiler or screen scratcher. And then

would also, screen scratcher could graduate to bunny boiler. All right. And so I had used bunny boiler in quite some time when I saw her. I was like, but we have a bunny boiler on her hand.

“But I just, that's one of my favorite maybe. I think Glenn close is phenomenal. It's so good. And”

so I really enjoy the bunny boiler. Well, not ignore me. I won't be ignored, Dan. I won't be ignored Dan. That's right. Oh my god. Oh my god. I got to rewatch that movie because I have a feeling. It's not very nice to win. I have a feeling. Yeah. And now you remember like that a lot of songs, I've listened to a lot of yacht rock. Yeah. It's so rapy. Like I think about this song. She's just 16 years old. Leave her alone. They said, if I could fly, I'll take you up. I'll take you into

the night. It's like talking about a 16 year old. Yeah. Yeah. Same thing. You go back. Go, do yourself ever. Go watch an episode of three's company. You're about the room. You're not going to come. I don't know. I don't know. It's a rape show. It's like, it's a rape show. Anyway, just I sorry founders of it. Just go watch it. It's like, like this, like, very, um, uh, one of my sons was watching it with me and they're like, Mom. And I'm like, I know it was a,

it wasn't bad. Yes, it is. Like it was really any of my anyhow. I appreciate it, Jennifer. We want to hear from you send your questions about business check or whatever's on your mind. Go to nmymeg.com/pivot to submit a question for the show. We're called 85551 Pivot. Okay. That's the show. Thank you so much, Jennifer. You can listen to more from Jennifer on the iPad podcast. And you can pre order her book, not today. Fash is now. When does that come out? October 6th. October 6th. This

is great. And is there a party? Will there be a party? I'm going a little tour for stops. DC, New York, Chicago, and Boston. And so you're going to, I've had it podcast.com and hit a separate ticket. All right. That'll be great. I will, if I am in town, I will be there. But we should do some sort of party for you. Anyway, thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday with one final Scott Free August session. Today's show is

produced by Laira Naman. So we Marcus Taylor Grypton and Todd Weissman, Ernie Andrdott, engineered this episode. Nishod Kurwiz, Fox Media is an executive producer, podcast, make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Fox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.

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