Lindsey Graham's Bloody Legacy

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You can get 50% off your new system by visiting simply safe dot com slash crooked That's half off. It's simply safe dot com slash crooked. There is no safe. Like simply safe this summer America Celebrated is 250th birthday, but if you actually sit down and read the declaration of independence You'll notice something wild buried right near the end is a brutal rant about and this is a direct quote Mercilis Indian savages as it turns out relations with native nations weren't just a footnote in the American Revolution

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We're gonna talk about the Democrats new 2028 primary calendar which puts South Carolina first and has already set off a debate About who that helps. We'll also talk about one Democratic leader who seems beyond help DNC chair Ken Martin The subject of not one not two but three leak field stories about the party's financial crisis Then we'll cover Trump's trip to Michigan in the big Senate race there as well as the latest with the Iran War and The biggest bombing of the weekend the president's performance at the rescheduled White House Corresponded Steiner

Finally been with their stop by the studio to talk about the DNC drama. There was constant gubernatorial primary drama

And his brand new drama free book. This is the plan All right guys, let's start with the biggest news from over the weekend that will impact the outcome of the 2028 presidential election We have a new primary calendar. It's here on Friday the DNC's rules and bylaws committee voted to make South Carolina the first primary state on January 22nd, 2028

It will tentatively be followed by Nevada on February 1st New Hampshire a week after that new Mexico a week after that Michigan the next week and finally Virginia on February 29th before a bunch of other states vote in early March on super Tuesday The new calendar still has to be approved by the full DNC, which we'll meet next month But there's already one potential stumbling block New Hampshire has a law that requires the state to go at least one week earlier than any other state primary

The DNC's proposed solution is for the New Hampshire Democratic Party to fund and hold its own primary That separate from the official state primary But it doesn't sound like New Hampshire Democratic leaders are on board with that plan just yet What were Republican leaders or Republican leaders right there's also been some grumbling from a few progressive activists. No They're putting so I say a few because access is like

Progressives upset with South Carolina, and then it's like a jack-up and op-ed and like one comment from his son-piker But there's a few progressive activists. Yeah, yes, it was because I did my diligence I started reading them like, okay, this headline is great Anyway, there's been some grumbling the putting South Carolina first gives an advantage to more moderate establishment candidates But we'll get into all of this before we get into what we think about the proposed calendar

You guys want to talk about why this is such a big deal and how much you think the early state calendar matters

And this didn't work. This is the things we got. Yeah, we probably shouldn't have rigged it for him to only be revealed like four or five days later

“But anyway so much for Iowa. I mean, yeah, I was gone. I mean, I think that early state calendar and its totality”

Just could not be more important. It's the whole ball game From the Obama perspective like Obama's not the nominee if he doesn't when Iowa And because it gave us huge momentum and it made people over the country believe that he could win But also it taught us how to organize and we put in place those organizing practices in all the future caucus states and Mopped up delegates against Hillary Clinton as we went forward

So kept paying out dividends during that long drawn out awful primary process The order will also determine, you know what policy areas could highlight it like for example I will be first meant that we talked about ethanol probably far too much for far too long. That will now

We may never talk about it again. May not be as big of an issue

We know of New Mexico with southern border state. We'll see if immigration is more salient this time around and Michigan We'll probably hear about autos and unions in Virginia Maybe dozes in issue again, right? You have a lot of government employees in northern Virginia But also gives more power to different demographics and you know types of voters older voters white voters black voters Right, so that's a bit of a part of the conversation that we'll get into in a minute

But I do think like Figuring this out is essential and it really does help in harm specific candidates

“So I'm just a counter point. I don't know that I agree with that. So I think you're right the schedule in early”

2008 was very important in part because Iowa was was perfect for Barack Obama to prove that Despite being a black candidate, he could put together a coalition of white voters that were hyper-engaged and You built a great upper Organization on the ground had Hillary not had a surprising win in New Hampshire It probably would have been over sooner

But that allowed the race to go back and forth. What it's interesting is the way the race ultimately goes back and forth It was told as a momentum and and narrative but a reality it was Often more about the demographics of the voters in each state kind of ricoching back and forth as like the fundamental dynamics of the race Didn't ship on the other side you have Joe Biden becoming the nominee. He loses in Iowa, he loses in New Hampshire, but he says wait for South Carolina. He's able to overcome

Those early losses because they had set expectations and He comes out of South Carolina with so much momentum that he's able to clean up on super Tuesday and become The nominee so I do think it it's important to me

What I think is the most important is where the actual swing states fall in the schedule right where Michigan is for example

But sometimes I think we get into this idea of the order of states mattering when in reality It's a partly about the order, but also about managing expectations and How campaigns fair over the the the next few contests. It can win no, but I don't know if it's like a as Such an order it's new states to I mean like let's say if it was instead of South Carolina and Nevada in New Hampshire was Texas Oklahoma Arizona Like that's sort of what I'm getting. Yeah, having these new states in there will just changes the issues in demographics

Yeah, there's two factors there's order and then there's states But right, you know, I do think I I think you can make an argument that order doesn't matter as much as Everyone thinks it does I think then the which states the composition of the states in the early windows

“It's hugely important. Yeah, that's what I was getting especially tallity of them and especially now that there are five I think you”

You're probably going to have a slower momentum build over time But if you have five states in the early window before super Tuesday and the two last states are very big states like Michigan and Virginia Both of which are also going to be competitive states in the general election especially Michigan You are going to know a lot by the time super Tuesday rolls around about who can put together a campaign that could win Almost any demographic group in any region of the country and like I I find it hard and unless now we

Democrats Award delegates in each of these states proportionally unlike Republicans do a lot of winter take all states So they might who knows they might change that for 28 as well and they're side So you could see a situation Super Tuesday and beyond where it's like in Obama and Hillary fighting note a delegate battle, but

I tend to think that having five states go and that many that many states in that many votes in that period of time It's going to pretty much tell you who's the who's helped me by the time you get the super Tuesday right right they all like by the time you get through those early states you've been in White or states you've been in Latino states you've been to state with a bigger African American population By the time you get to Michigan you have

Some like sort of prominent urban areas that have been you know strongholds for Democrats You've gotten a good sense of the entire picture could you achieve that same thing if you did swap in a Texas in Oklahoma

Hyper-engaged Democrats in the same way that say like an Iowa would in the past whatever

“I think the part of the reason South Carolina was able to place such a big rule in 2020 is Biden said explicitly wait for South Carolina”

You can't become a democrat you will not be a there will not be a democratic president who doesn't have strong support among African Americans And then he wins so handily in that state that kind of proves that case and he kind of is able to march on to the nomination after Yeah, in terms of how much it matters though like You got to imagine every single campaign and waiting

Is after Friday's announcement is like now finally starting to plan they're strategy

I mean like it is everything for a campaign knowing God states go first in order Like every decision is made around that where you travel what operatives you hire like yeah And also there were people are talking about waiting until after the midterms figure this out I was like what are you talking about you can't possibly do yeah when I saw that some of the

Progressives were like sort of and I had the same thing So who's actually upset about this but you know Oh South Carolina is a boon to more moderate candidates well, that's sort of about what you're saying about the African American electorate not being as far to the left as Some like the more sort of the wider part of the of of of the democratic base

But now for the first time you might have instead of candidates spending six months in

You know Iowa People spending months and months and months in South Carolina and it's like well that's a great opportunity for the left to prove that they can appeal Beyond their sort of online and sort of more Lestiverse audience with Iowa and Hampshire finally being dethroned as the first two contests

“How do you guys think that changes the race and strategy of these campaigns?”

Well, it's just we're pointing at the both states actually have laws on the books Mandating their place in the order the the Iowa blog says the caucuses have to be held at least eight days before any other primary or caucus Iowa officials currently want a punt on that fight until after the midterms or whatever reason But we'll see what they do. I kind of understand don't think they're gonna fight it New Hampshire's gonna go down swinging in part because you have a Republican governor who is not gonna agree to move it

I don't think the faith of the primary so then they're gonna be asked to pay for a party funded primary And if they don't I mean there's real consequences. I mean the if a state party refuses to abide by the rules The penalties are now they lose all their delegates at the 20 28 convention That's up from losing 50% of your delegates and they have to pay a $270,000 fine and lose DNC membership voting rights until the fine is paid off So that's pretty serious for them and there's penalties for the candidates

And worse for the candidates you lose all your delegates from the entire early state nominating window and you're prohibited from Dispaving in DNC rule like I did this. I mean, so New Hampshire's gonna put on a party run a separate party run primary or else They are just going to take themselves out of the early state one do all together That those are the only two options because no one's gonna deal with these penalties

“The state of New Hampshire the candidates and so I think what they're all grumbling about right now”

And what I thought like Kathy Sullivan who is a former Hampshire Democratic party chairwoman because I had asked about the Sun Twitter into your pledge Like what we have we're trying to spend money to elect two members of Congress in 2026 and a senator to to house members and a senator we're in now We're gonna need all this money to put on a primary like that is a big undertaking So I'm sure maybe some of this will be bargaining to try to get some money from the DNC which we'll get to

Just to just to put on the primary, but that is a big it's you know, it's a big deal There's a possibility if New Hampshire bows out because they don't have the money They don't want to do this the only other Northeastern state that applied that would slide into that slot is Delaware Which is kind of interesting Do you guys like where the DNC landed on this group of states in this particular order?

I would have liked more swing states, but look, my I am not maybe like I just I have so much PTSD from 2007 2008 where the the calendar was treated as being this very very important thing

When in reality the experience of working for Hillary Clinton in that period was she would always do do well enough that she could justify going to the next contest

But not so well as to change the dynamics of the race and to me I'm glad like I'm glad Michigan's there. I think it is actually good That you no longer have this situation where the first two contests that it draws so much attention in time for so long are these very white Places that don't reflect the broader democratic electorate But beyond that I do think like in the end part of the strategy is where you compete, but also part of it is just

How you tell a story about where and when you're going to do best So I look I'm I'm sad to see I will go because I know all the downsides of caucuses We've talked about them, but there is it forces you to invest in organizing it forces you it incentivizes a nicer brand of politics because you want to be your opponent's second choice for reasons We don't have to get into so I think that we'll be missing that

I actually I reset to a bunch of people who worked in politics just to like get their opinions on what they'd seen and their responses range from

It's impossible to know yet because a new Hampshire to this is going to boom around boomerang back on us and be a disaster What was the argument for that that it's just going to be messy new Hampshire is going to screw everything up Once we get to Northern Virginia you're going to have like DC You know media markets spend people like making a big determination and it will just Kind of be a mess and who to hell knows about what new Mexico did whatever like you just one person's opinion

I I feel my personal take was I feel like the DNC and the RBC did a pretty good job of navigating a very Challenging process. I don't think the new Hampshire piece is solved in any way share performance

“I think we're whistling past the graveyard on that and that's something is going to have to give there”

The What do you mean like I just I think new Hampshire is going to fuck around They don't have the money to pay for this party run process and the Republican governor is not going to move the state So I just I don't know what's going to happen here I think can you end up with a primary where just the demo the candidates don't

Participate right me You'll buy one new Hampshire with a right in and head to delegates. Did it right think it was like that? No, but that's it's it's either they find the money to put on the primary or they're out There's no other up like but the you know I'm saying like that's and it's just it's going to be up to them to figure out if they can get the money Or you have the DNC threats work no major candidates actually go there

But they're super packs muck around in New Hampshire and stage right in efforts So they can show strength and they get new cycles at it right so there's all these weird ways that they kind of mess around So who knows on South Carolina? I mean I think South Carolina being first I agree with you like South Carolina first isn't like a massive change I think it's a reflection that black voters are the base of the party. They're half of the primary electorate there

I think the talk about you always hear from South Carolina people is

We have the track record of actually picking the nominee with who we vote for and like that's true But that's because they went the field was win-oed and then it gets to South Carolina So they voted for you know South Carolina voters picked Obama Clinton and Biden My guest is South Carolina will now just kind of be the win-a-war. It will be the filter function that Iowa and New Hampshire were I do agree it's a real bummer that it's just it's not a background state

Like you do all this organizing in these early states and then the candidates never go back to them Yeah, yeah, I agree that and and look the reason that is is because The laws already in the books and if you look for other states with heavy populations of black voters to go first

“You have to find a state with a Democratic perspective”

They can move the primary date and it's a whole month

So I I sort of feel the same because of that South Carolina but I think they did I think four South Carolina going first

They did a really good job of then balancing out the rest of the calendar Because you have I mean there's they have diversity all kinds of diversity right racial diversity Geographic diversity ideological diversity I also like that the first four states are small states And so the kind of retail campaigning that you got an Iowa New Hampshire and this will be true of Delaware takes New Hampshire spot You get so you'll have South Carolina, which is a relatively small state Nevada

Same thing at New Mexico which is a brand new to this process, which is pretty small I just don't know what to think of that one yet. It's New Mexico's interesting so you have in that state New Mexico's overall voting eligible population is 45% Hispanic that is the largest percentage of any state in the country They also have a significant Native American population That's the first time that we have an early state with a pretty significant Native American population

Like you said time it's a border state, which I think is great. We have a democratic tri-factor there So they should be able to move that no problem It is more non-college The voters there than some of the other states, which I also think is helpful because you're going to want to prove that you can win non-college voters and not just Not just highly college educated voters. You get a new like you get a new Hampshire. Yeah, what is the different function?

Then like in their theory that Nevada plays versus New Mexico's matter also has a big Latino population it is compared to other states lower percentage of college voters also has Las Vegas Which is a huge importance Center for unions, right? Is that like like what is the different like what is the other than just this is how it shook out? And we I'm glad I liked having Nevada early when we were there That was one of the last trips we took before COVID look I was on record or saying this last time

But boy am I happy will be spending lots of time and it will have no choice I'm just gonna wait for the go so what is what is in there? What is the theory of the different role in New Mexico versus Nevada plays New Mexico's a border state? Yeah, and I don't even know if there's a theory of the being different what I took it as is

North devout and South Carolina were battling for first and

You know that South Carolina party chair was like well if Nevada goes first what does that say to black voters?

“If they don't matter as much and I think you pointed to me love it. So does that mean the reverse is true then?”

Right. And so now by having two states with significant Latino populations and Nevada also has a Significant black population as well not as much as South Carolina but it does Then you get then you basically have two states in the early window that have pretty heavy Latino

South Carolina Nevada New Mexico these are states that are not that cold in November December January that is cool

“That's what we want. Yeah, it's just gonna be New Hampshire and I guess Michigan”

Right, and we'll be cold too. Okay, very cool What do you guys make of the like the South Carolina Disadvantages progressives a progressive candidate? I think it's probably right. I mean the the South Carolina Democratic primary electorate. It's older more moderate than Iowa New Hampshire or over Nevada About 40% of South Carolina Democratic primary voters were college graduates

About half identified as liberal which is less than earlier content. This is I think 2020 Exables they're more likely to be working class more likely to go to church once a week older Biden one South Carolina 2020 because he won with black voters, but he did especially well with black voters over 60 He and Bernie actually have been tied with black voters under 30 so I do think it's likely to be demographically Set up to be more moderate like as we were saying before like if you're saying that you think South Carolina

Is a way to put a roadblock in front of progressives you are saying that a Black electorate is a roadblock in front of

“Progressive now I think the the point that would be made in responses is as Tommy said a generational thing”

Not a demographic thing, but of course it's it's both and We have seen like you know You see this in Michigan playing out that One of a duals challenges is trying to kind of build support in the black community and I I feel like This is an opportunity for

the left if they want to start building A bigger coalition that can win in contest like this right like because South Carolina that is where Bernie goes down In 2020 like if that's that that is that is the test and it may not happen this election you're right It may be harder because of this but but also the same time even if if South Carolina was third fourth or fifth

This test was always there that the candidate that that wins black voters is gonna be the nominee

Well, this is where I think that the order Matters may be less or at least can cut both ways because let's say South Carolina is Does advantage more moderate candidates well then you know so a fifth of South Carolina primary voters describe themselves as very liberal which

Relatively low and then you go to Nevada in a third of voters there describe themselves as very liberal so like if you're a progressive lefty candidate and you don't do well in South Carolina You hang on and you go to Nevada you go to New Hampshire or Delaware You go to you try you know like so there's there's basically there's a state on the map In that early window for any kind of ideological flavor or you know a different kind of voter

That you can get so I I don't worry as much about that I wouldn't worry if I was a progressive candidate or if I was in South Michigan candidate on like the order in that way What one under discussed change that was Nevada going from a caucus date to a primary state Which I think it'll make it legally to disadvantage progressive potentially because there's you know some progressive's tend to organize well in these caucus states and unions tend to do

better than You didn't tend to do really well in caucus states. It's just interesting to see how that kind of cuts. I don't know yet. Oh, yeah The fact that there's no caucus just means it's disadvantaging. I mean that that's yet progressive do better in caucuses for sure But even without the caucus in Nevada will have like a more liberal primary like for sure in South Carolina

Dan made an argument in his Saturday message box the South Carolina going first massively advantages

Kamala Harris what did you guys think about that so I saw that I thought huh that's interesting from Dan and then I I went back and looked at The South Carolina polling from before Kamala and did her campaign and she drops out in the end of 2019 before any votes are cast but in the closing Weeks of the year There were polls that had our somewhere between say five to 12% I think she sort of like ticking down a bit as we

got closer and so I don't know I thought it was like like maybe that's true right apart of the reason she entered her campaign when she did is she just wasn't gaining traction even in a state like Yeah, what do you think so I mean I think you know, but basically the argument is that Black voters are half the electorate in South Carolina that Kamala Harris has the most support from black voters by far in polls

It's just 69% favorability with black voters plus 22 You're right that like her her presidential run in 2020 did not end well in South Carolina or any state But that was just a bad campaign that didn't end well for her and I think four years of being VP probably changed a lot of things

“I think certainly it like what does it make her the front runner?”

Yes But being the front runners double edged sword because the early states are not necessarily about winning all the early states about expectations management and exceeding expectations in the early states and

It puts a big old bullseye in your back and the media looks for

Better more interesting stories to tell for them. I this what I thought and it's like as soon as South Carolina is over Now you've got four other states for that month including two very big ones at the end and Does anyone think that the media is like no matter how good of a campaign she's running is going to be like? Yeah, it's the Kamala Harris front runner story all through February like that's just not going to happen

Right it goes from like oh wow South Carolina advantages Kamala Harris too Kamala Harris is the only candidate that has a state if she loses it's over That's right that's definitely true. Well, and the the other thing we haven't talked about is if West more runs or Rough y'all warnock like she's not the only black candidate that might run for president and then you could have

Black candidates splitting votes

“You could have and then you know it's interesting like the two things that you need to know before starting to think about how the race is going to go”

Fang your strategy is the campaign one is the early state calendar which is now locked two is the composition of the fields Because you need to know who's running who's going to split what vote how they're going to like that that part We don't know yet, but like there is a situation to where if it's just Kamala Harris She's the only but black candidate running and she's doing really well with black voters in South Carolina Then because the state is

More moderate overall and you have a bunch of white moderates running aside from except from Kamala Harris Then they're all splitting a vote and then maybe the progressive candidate or two does even better So just imagine example like you've got we have no idea

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I just think like you know some kind of like Pete Buttigieg who is historically had a really hard time with black voters

Like it's probably now to disadvantage for any Sanders or he to run again was probably a bit of a disadvantage For the reasons we just discussed a lot of the conventional wisdom is also that AOC came out of this new primary process

“Helped because she does well with Latinos and with labor. We'll see if she runs. We'll see if that's true”

But I mostly with you guys that like a lot of the early attempts to kind of You know handicap this race are just silly. We don't know we're just going to look yeah Run brand scene who digs into these demographics and that's the better than most He said that though the one through line for all of the states is the candidate Who's going to be able to do best with black voters and white college educated

Voters as well is probably going to do the best because aside from Nevada and New Mexico You don't have a lot of states with non college big non college populations and he was like, you know last last candidate Who have done that to bring that coalition together is Barack Obama, right? It's the the white lives in the black Democrats So we'll see Pots of America is brought you by magic spoon we love magic spoon. It says here to mention the macros

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dot com slash crooked to say 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain that's Squarespace dot com slash crooked Speaking of the DNC seems like Ken Martin had a bad Sunday The New York Times notice and the ballwork all-ran stories about what the times calls the troubled broke Democratic Party the time story was Certainly the newsiest and most damning for Martin it includes a story about him throwing his phone at the desk of a junior staffer

Which resulted in a formal HR complaint and another where Martin freaked out on a call about the party's finances because he thought his staff was planning a coup And they were like no, we're just talking about the money. Wow, no coup. Sounds like it's a usual loader. I leave it Pretending to me But the real me to the story is the party's financial struggles under Martin which are quite real

We already knew that the DNC is $2 million in debt after taking out a $15 million loan and more than a hundred million dollars behind the RNC in fundraising

But apparently the situation is so bad the DNC is asking vendors not to invoice them until after the midterms And for the first time the DNC will not be transferring any money to the house and Senate committees to help them win the midterms According to the times quote party officials are now reckoning with the fact that they must begin to repay 1.66 million dollars of the loans principle per month starting in January. Otherwise pretty nice building

“But we share this something where it happened to it. What you guys make of these stories did anything in the make you more worried than you already were?”

Can I just read a great entry in one of my favorite parts of an insider story like this which is a leak about leaks quote it pisses me off when I see leaks out of this building Mr. Martin said according to four people it heard the remarks adding no more I don't know that's that kind of leaked that reporters like it's gonna go in so funny the no more it's just a brutal thing leaks about leaks I love I love so I reset some of the DNC staff can Martin's defenders I can offer that perspective

I don't know if you guys want to start with reflections on the story. No, no, you can't you will reflect after you're okay So what they would say is what we're in Bernstein over in Bernstein we're in Bernstein a veto over here. Okay, and thank you for doing the work I'm grateful to a one phone call you woodward in this building So they would point out that through June of twenty twenty six the DNC raised more money than the DNC did in the entire 2017 2018 cycle. They love that talking a comparable period yeah when Democrats did not hold the White House

They also argued they have more cash on hand the DNC did in 2019 so their argument is basically the media narrative is that this is like some historic disaster when in fact like There's recent precedent that they're actually have been proved upon they would also say like let's look at the Investments or we're making the DNC gave a hundred thousand dollars to the Mississippi Democratic Party Right before a special election that broke a Republican super majority obviously good thing

The DNC gave money to South Carolina and after the first time in 50 years South Carolina recruited to Canada It to run in every state house race state wide race and congressional race So that there's some of a talking point where Can sub-stack about this where he's like we'd 90% of the races we've over performed or won I think that's taking credit for the political environments and people being mad at Donald Trump

But you know it's evidence right it's results matter Now I also talk to some people who worked in the DNC in that period that twenty seven twenty-eight thing period for Tom Perez

“And they'll say the thing you have to remember is that everyone hated the DNC in 2017 because they blame them for”

Hillary losing and they blame them for Bernie getting screwed So money wasn't really coming to the door That was positive yes, yes, they walked into the building with

$17 million in debt the major fundraising team had been laid off so they were you have a standing start

And at least $30 million of Ken's fundraising total was Combo Harris raising money to retire her own debt So I think those people also can see like yeah that 2017 2018 period fundraising wasn't good But comparing to the Not good period is still bad Also they still in that election did transfer money to the House and Senate committees, which they're not going to do this year

Well, it's also hey In this game that we're losing we actually have more goals than the previous team so well You're not playing against the DNC from 2018 you're playing against the Republicans in twenty twenty six

“So the last point I think I just make in response to the can too is like”

Okay, you're telling us you've raised all this money, but you're still two million in debt like that's

Suggest mismanagement in this spending you know what I mean it's like a double the talking points a double-edged door Yeah, that's my my feeling about it which is like before a sort of diving into all these stories like oh There's a massive fundraising problem at the DNC were being out raised by a huge amount and then you read the defense it's like well actually You know it's we're out of power, but they're the raised the fundraising is actually Comparable if not better

Okay, can wear it all the money go out and then the test is if you really are going to say that we've been

Well, then it's incumbent upon you to show how that's going to benefit Democrats in the midterms and beyond

“And then you think well hold on that was the strategy where so right now democratic candidates have been out raising Republican candidates”

the Are in the Republican house committee and the Republican Senate committee are out raising not not to the same degree as the DNC

But are out raising the candidate committees and the the RNC has over a hundred million dollars more on hand than the DNC does now before the Supreme Court ruled that

The party parties could spend at the same lower rate as candidates. There's an argument to say you know what the DNC should raise money Get it out the door for building infrastructure Focus fundraising for the candidates those candidates can then buy ads at a cheaper rate than the parties but that advantage is now gone that doesn't exist anymore and so They have more money in their super packs their their candidate their candidate committees have more money and the RNC has more money

And all of that is just puts puts the Republicans at a huge advantage for buying ads over the Democrats and so then you say well That is the stat like regardless of what money went out the door like that is the situation right now So what do you do to get out of the hole the answer isn't to point to how much worse it could have in or how much different it is like we are behind how do you close that gap

Yeah, and doesn't seem like there's any answers on that from the from the DNC and it's not like they are

Sort of denying any of the stories You didn't throw the phone it's slid next to someone else who didn't know the phone Rufus Gipper who we all know Rufus He was the Obama campaign. He was He was the finance director of the DNC

He worked there for eight years. He wrote the subject today. He loves the place He worked he was the finance director on Obama's reelect on Biden's reelect So he's been around for a long time. He didn't have a dog in the fight on Ken versus Ben or anything else But he said in his subject post the DNC is spiraling towards irrelevance

And that Ken Martin is a good man with good intentions but simply not meeting this critical moment and his

Germanship is beyond saving and wait till that email goes out where he says to everybody come into that big DNC meeting One slice of pizza per person That's all we can do right now. No seconds license at this meeting. I want to work just can't we can't out of for it I once worked on a campaign where our paychecks were delayed until the next year to make like the FEC report look better So we had more cash on the end and by the way, it didn't

Suggest a healthy campaign and the things were going well, but then a reporter called and asked one of our spokespeople If staff had been asked to delay their paychecks to make our FEC report look better and the this black said no Because we just been told then we would not be getting paid over Christmas. We were not asked. So yeah, that was

“Memory lane. I mean, I think the question I was like what can be done about this because we're all in this situation together”

Or all you know like we all need the the DNC to be successful in a democratic party to be successful You know, there is a scenario We were talking to someone where once we have a nominee the nominee of the party installs their person to the DNC and You know tries to go around can and raises all the money, but you know between now and getting an nominee We need to figure like the party needs to figure something out unlike how to raise the money that we're going to need

Especially with the Supreme Court decision as you said love it where now the democratic national committee It's going to be really really important for them to have a ton of money before there's even a nominee This is a crisis. You know, like this is the terrible fundraising and the off-tops you report and the interview with you This is all compounded into a crisis of confidence with DNC leadership and it is just not going to improve and it's time to make a change I think and I think

Chuck Schumer and Hawking Jeffery's need to go to Ken Martin and say We got to do something different here and they need to get someone else in there that just has confidence of big donors of parties, etc

“And yeah, I like we just can't overstate how important this Supreme Court ruling is”

in terms of erasing the democratic party Advantage that we used to have because small dollars would flow to our candidates who would get preferential rates on ad buys and then You'd have Republicans super PACs having to spend ten times the same amount for the same ad now that advantage is gone Yep, and we are that just makes a hole even deeper and so like like if I'm Chuck Schumer like you're trying to win a cent of majority if you're Hawking Jefferies You're trying to become speaker. This is existential for well for me be on those two because for them

It's like you know the midterms are in a couple of months there with it's that ship is sailed Every Democrat running for president every one of these campaigns. It is in their interest to like Back together on this to like all go to these I don't think ship is sale for the midterms I think you could get a new person in tomorrow who could bring like a bunch of big donors to send a message and raise

Yes, but then why not just send the money right to the DSC and the D triple C There's no need to give the DNC money before the midterm sure this again like I'm trying taking Ken's work Like I read your long stop stack, but if you look at like the like what his claim is then there's actually is a fair amount of money coming in And so what I don't understand is like there's this sort of like hand-dwinging Oh, there's nothing we can do before November if if you're if there's this little amount of money on hand

But like what's something like 8.6 million is coming in every month at the lead like

Why can't there be a change in priorities where you kind of do a do say from this point forward We are going to be devoting these resources towards winning in November and This is the amount that's going to be directed towards this as opposed to whatever kind of a longer term kind of money

“That's going out the door for month is like that's what I don't that's what I came away. I was confused by there's just this is a vicious cycle and you know”

Wickler was As as usual very generous and kind of want to over Ken Martin, but you know when there are stories like these It just deepens the problem because now who's going to want to give money to the DNC after reading stories like this right? Like and so it's a it's a vicious cycle I did think one more funny moment from the New York Times story is he's like he's got this staff meeting and he's trying to like like

Everyone up and he says my success is your success so the weaker I am the weaker all of you are Which is true? Which is a weird thing to say to your staff That seems so inspiring. I don't know that's the best pop talk I've ever heard. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think it's a get through like The other thing to is any like if you're a presidential candidate starting next year and they're like What do you think it can Martin you would just like when you know

The present will choose a new DNC chair right like we will have a better you know They're all gonna say they're gonna choose a new DNC chair. So it's just like it moves that up. Let's get this get through the winter and swap this guy Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just like when when we swapped

“Combo for Biden. I think the DNC raised like a billion dollars in a hundred days”

You know, there's a lot they could do this trip. We were to make a change. I think you know what it in Ken's Substack he says we must communicate and organize year round while one of the things that we learned in this New York Times story is that after the Repotative American interview Ken has only done like one local TV hit so I'm not saying he's our people in eerie He's very full now It is it is primarily a fundraising job right we don't expect him out doing to be out doing message events

But Rufus Kiffer than his substeck made the point that when the DNC chair does a lot of TV That gets shared that could seem by donors and makes them want to donate and be involved and kind of like keeps you in the mix And then also you have like the DNC's got a lot of great stuff and they must feel beyond Demoralized and they're supposed to be doing yeah, and it's like you're around you know research in comms and digital on Republicans they're doing mobilization. They have this big like creator program

You know the RBC that rules committee just did a really good job on the calendar and You need more hype reels for Ken And just like creators I just feel bad for this team of people not just because the phones are flying but because like you feel like your your work is getting Integrated in the news all the time and you don't have the leadership you need and you know

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So Michigan's in the early state line up because it remains one of the most critical swing states and this false Senate race there

It's going to be one of the most hotly contested the primary already is hotly contested Trump would there on Monday to tour a GM facility in a pair alongside Mike Rogers the Republican nominee for Senate who will face off against Either Abdul Elsaid or Haley Stevens though neither were mentioned during Trump's speech He did however go hard at the DSA wing of the party If they're siding with the radical left communists taking over the party, they want in other words the normal socialists who can destroy a country to

Then not going fast up communism is the greatest threat to our country in history including Even World War one World War two Pearl Harbor or nine eleven. I mean what this is a serious threat in that order world world World War one World War two Pearl Harbor nine eleven. I was like the normal socialists and he kind of said he's like the normal socialists Who could also destroy the country normally. He got enough for get that that's important to hit this cold war fever dream nonsense very weird

“I was kind of surprised the Trump held back from mentioning the Senate race. What do you guys think that's about?”

I think he's suddenly a stickler for the hatch Act. It was an official event Yeah, I don't I don't know either my Rogers like are they a I thought they would be I thought he would hit a duel I thought it was a well, yeah, I mean that I do want to fight with Trump right now right presumably Democrats would love to watch I'll do it will be in a fight with Trump right now, so maybe the idea would be if you if you pick this fight You're gonna take attention into the race and

But they kind of want to do it to come out of the things. I don't know well that that's the thing right like you what you'll hear from Haley Steven supporters That the Republicans want to face the duel because they think he's weaker that we're so you think they would elevate him in this moment Right for the primary it's weird that they didn't I don't know why I mean it could just be because Trump is dumb and forgot his name and like you know It's supposed to do it at a communist right and there is some evidence to that that they do want that because Mike Rogers was like

There was a recording of Mike Rogers on a call with the others saying like I think it's a dual wearing good shape And so you know there is evidence for that, but they remarkably disciplined from from Donald Trump there Or maybe it wasn't discipline maybe you just forgot. Maybe doesn't care. Right. Or is there any is there any argument that Trump and Rogers think if they

“Probably pick a fight with a dual it helps Haley Steven. Is there any can you make that argument like that's why I mean Rogers has a behind the scenes in the kind of kind of”

To try to be like I'm excited about a duel, which is a perfect thing to help Haley Steven is not a public fight Yeah, I don't know I don't know they also might be thinking that if he was Steven's wins You know, they want to they want to they want to label them both as communists right? They don't want to do right if you're not trying to keep treatment. Yeah, right Haley Steven's wins are not going to be like, oh, we really wanted to you know like they're going to act like she's as left wing as possible

Right, that's what they do meanwhile Abdul who is you know we're all supporting in the race was quoted in playbook on Monday morning Telling donors on a private call on these private calls. These dooms you got to you got to get these dooms They're not that private No kidding

So he was telling donors that a private call that all the money and political power being used against him makes him look like David against Goliath Presumably meaning both Haley Steven's and a pack

What do you guys think of his assessment of things?

I mean like I say this with love for Abdul, but I thought it was not good. You know like my first argument would be

You got to win the general election first and then talk about this stuff like you're spiking the football on the 30-yard line Let's win the primary it was win the general then you can maybe talk about 20-28 if you want Also, I'm sure what happened was you started pump up

“donors and supporters, but you have to know this stuff is gonna leak it always leaks and the ogre comment is getting taken out of”

Contacts like people are suggesting we said oh we have started I didn't mention that he said This will help me put an ogre on a pike right which is about John Fetterman People are suggesting he was comparing Haley Steven to an ogre. It does not sound like he was doing that in any way But also don't call John Fetterman in ogre. You know it's not helpful I think it kind of plays into this belief along a lot of Democrats that the left wing of the party is far more focused on

Going after moderate Democrats than Republicans. Let's I to find John Fetterman very frustrating on a lot of issues But he's an elected Democrat Senator in a swing state. Let's beat the Republicans first and talk about that And I think my other just like big picture comment for Abdul is Take every sentence where you say I in replace it with we this campaign is not about you and what you're gonna do in 28 or Whatever it's about the movement. It's about what we are gonna do to make people's lives better

The issues we're gonna elevate like the way you're gonna fight for Michigan. I just think it was It was not good. Yeah, this is the second interview or this is the second sort of first with an interview This was a week recording but the second time we've gotten sort of

“This sort of tone for me that Semaphore interview. I think was at that at a similar level of like I don't know”

It's at the costility and Grandiosity to it but also it's Punditree and as a rule if you're a candidate and you're doing Punditree

That is a mistake that is if you think of always the gross gaps always with the donors with the donors every hundred three with the donors

That's the worst set is this that's where happens all the time. That's where Mitt Romney says 52 percent Barack Obama says bitter guns and religion like that like Hillary. I think deplorables was a classic was that was Yeah, yeah, so so it's a common trap That you're sort of like analyzing the electorate and if you're doing that as a candidate by the way Which is something he understands in his interviews where he's actually very like he he

didn't interview with Dasha Burns and even she was like my god drawn message throughout this entire thing we kind of let's lose when I think he thinks he's in Private the other part of it too though is like it's got to be frustrating because we're campaigning and say these demons who's getting all this attention

For having this aweshocks pure Michigan thing and then a pack's dropping like 30 million dollars on their idea like put a sort of salad in it as fucking hands

We'll see we'll see what the ads are yeah I think for progressive candidates that tend to do well Have a sunnier disposition there is they do express anger of course, but there's a sunnier disposition and what would have dual has nailed is The liberal patriotism and we saw that with the when the protester jacling Like you know interrupted one of his events and he talked in the basically they shattered him out with the ush

“And right it will give the speech so he's got he's got that part down, but you can't be also you have to look you have to be happy all the time”

And not be and not be hostile to your opponents Like there is something deeper than this is not about Abdul there is a like A bad face critique From the left that takes I think what is largely a true argument about the influence of money and politics and by the way It's just for saying like what's happening in Michigan is fucking crazy

This is the biggest outside spend by a pack ever it's 30 maybe on any Senate race ever as in a primary All being dumped on his head like that is what is on television and the ad like that there's two ads that are going around That are like that are just like the really manipulative to like say that like a dual is bad for women Right taking some quotes out of context, but at the same time like when Whitmer endorses Haley Stevens it's because she's bought and sold right and like I don't believe Gretchen Whitmer is bought and sold and I don't think most Democrats and Michigan believe

Creature Whitmer is in bought and so yeah Uh, you shouldn't shoot back Haley Stevens cuz she probably thinks Haley Stevens is a better chance of winning That's it. It doesn't help you probably to attack in pretty personal terms of very popular Democrat in the state You're trying to represent and my guess, you know, there's probably some old bad blood there from 2018 when they ran against each other But it's a winner and when I'm doing this got to each hit that's the whole of this that's running from all six

And like so like when Abdul is asked in that interview about like whether he identifies as a socialist He says I don't identify like like what and he he actually won't answer where he disagrees with Bernie and AOC and he says like I just don't Identifies a socialist. I like appreciate some version of I appreciate capitalism I'm sorry. I'm just going to be a nuanced guy. I'm a nuanced guy right but that nuance doesn't like especially I get why in the heat of a primary but like

You know when like you say the root of our housing problem is is corporate money when the root of

I get why it's a valuable way of simplifying what's happening. But I think we it starts to feel

I don't know like Like like turning this race into like a black and white mannequin struggle

“Which is what comes off in these private conversations?”

Yeah, so Trump also used the Michigan appearance to provide an update on his uh on again off again or in Iran Which suddenly appears to be off again after Trump threatened a massive attack last week U.S. officials told reporters that the shrinking supply of air defense systems was at least partly Responsible for the pause which Trump of course blamed on Biden We also find out this weekend that the forced service members who recently died in the Iran war are no longer

Listed in the Pentagon's casualty count for the Iran war Instead the Pentagon moved the tally of their deaths to a new section Generically called overseas operations casualties They also updated the number of injuries to over 600

Here's what Trump had to say about the war on the flight to Michigan and at his event there

Well, Iran took a beating over the last 14 days And they asked us very nicely Please stop

“Let's beat and that's what we are right now to what happens”

When the fuel comes down which it did for a little while Then they didn't behave and I had to go back and now they're behaving again. You know, it's like playing a banjo Is it like playing a banjo? It's like what in what way is the Iran war like playing the banjo? I think I know what that is tell me. I think that what he is thinking of is the song that goes back and forth from the film deliverance

But a bum bum bum bum bum bum bum but a bum bum bum bum bum bum bum bum

In the film deliverance. I know I know that that is what I think still struggling with I've worked because it's a back and forth It's gonna slow like a pig in this one. I think I think I think I think I think it's us I don't know tell me what's what do you think? What's what's going on right now? I mean we're losing the war the the straight of her moves was once uncontested and now it's contested and I think in the long run

Iran Geographic you guys might have noticed on a map. It's that's where it is straight of her moves. I feel like they have the upper hand there The New York Times reported that American intelligence agencies believe that Iran's new supreme leader

“Mushta Bahamane is far more interested than his father in acquiring a nuclear weapon. Do you know under why so that's good?”

That's not what JD events said. I thought that they were becoming friends. Yeah, the father. It's worn off Nuke's there was a phatua against them obviously the people question that but many unless thought it was a genuine sentiment and now there's quite an argument for getting a nuclear weapon. I think the long term impact of the war as is is like just it's gonna be sporadic economic disruption for a very long time potentially and that increases the likelihood of U.S. Service members getting killed or wounded the same coast for civilians in Iran by the way

and anyone living in the Gulf you know in a base where the Iranians are firing out and you people are getting killed all the time It is led there's just growing instability. I mean you're now noticing like the Houthis rebels are getting involved in the war We're before they had not there's these reports that the Saudis of the Emirates are directly engaging with Iran and firing missiles or you know bombs into their territory. So it's just that the war is metastasizing and growing It's wildly expensive, you know, we have

Hexeth and others going to Congress and they want a 1.5 trillion dollar Pentagon budget next year. I mean that's insane And the munitions issue is a really big long-term problem that we can't fix like There's all these interceptor missiles. There's the fads system. There's the Patriots stockpile that's down by half There's all these air to air missiles that are running low. There's the T-Wam or Tomahawk so it would be like There's all these war games of a well US war with China where you run out of Tomahawk missiles in like a week

With the full stockpile and now we're way down on those and in many cases these cost millions and millions of dollars each and they They can take as long as 2030 to replenish them. So it just feels like everything He's done has sort of made our posture weaker both in the Gulf and vis-a-vis China which trump ran on telling us was the big geostrategic problem going forward and now one of the political problems of any war which is US service members dying and being injured now they're handling that by just deciding to

Do some creative accounting where they hide the deaths from us for as long as they can or the injuries or the Now they're listing that listing them is overseas operations casualties is Dispicable. Yeah, it really is the like the options of well he can Escalate right it's actually it's sort of mirrors what happens in our domestic politics where Trump's has Trump has to

Like threaten greater and greater chaos for the markets to take him seriously And so the markets have to respond more forcefully and we're going to get him to Back off whatever the latest threat is be a tariffs or some other economic policy that would be Destructive going after the Fed and so now he has to threaten this new

Because he has to because the only he has to ratchet up the threat because That's I guess all he has in terms of trying to get some control over Over Iran and get them to sort of relent on the straight of our moves so that's one dangerous path The other is some kind of

Increasing sanctions economic crackdown right like due to sort of try to squeeze around that way and then finally it's like

Just saying We did it but even that option

“Which is I think something we were oh, well, he should just declare victory and walk away”

That's not really available anymore because yeah that the Iran will continue to control the straight of her moves The the fake outcome where he says we got a better deal than Obama had even if it's worse is not available anymore Because we've been so thoroughly sort of bodied by their ability to control the straight I think this this the way they change the reporting of casualties Is all about trying to get around the warp powers act by saying the old war ended and this is a new war I think But but it also sounds like they weren't really updating casualties in a timely manner and then for the standard way

Like there were reporters kind of watching the website where this is reported out and seeing it kind of bump around less We go up and down and they're like what does happening even now the numbers aren't all in agreement like you don't have it We don't have like a straight forward answer the total of the two conflicts operation epic fury and then whatever They're calling overseas operations in 18 dead 624 wounded and so they've also they've really not been very transparent about What those the wounded number mean. Yeah. They're like oh, it's mostly minor concussions that they went back to work

But you know traumatic brain injuries from a you know a Ballistic missile exploding near you. It's a big deal and it also it's part and parcel to the Pentagon Covering up the cost of the war. It's just not being transparent like I you know I have friends who are still in the military or people who are overseas will be like you know They're shutting down you can no longer take photos on some of these bases

These they're just so destroyed that they're basically rendered unusable people had to be evacuated from some of these places like the the cost of Base is just being like you know unop inoperable for many years to come now It's not really been like fully calculated. Yeah, Greg set going front of the Senate and saying this war cost 35

Billion dollars, but we need 80 billion right now in an emergency and then you're like well

“Why do we don't you already have 80 billion in cash?”

And he's like no, no, no, I've already decided what that's going for and we have to do this because Biden spent all of our money on whoa and it's like that may work in a fox news him with a fucker You talking a bunch of woke up All right speaking of bombs on Friday the White House Correspondence Association held its rescheduled dinner after a gunman interrupted the event back in April It was a smaller venue with a smaller crowd and more security, but Trump basically gave the speech he'd originally planned on giving and boy

Did he crush it the other day a senator? I knew got a tax of great guy from his wife And she said when you get home, I want to have you immediately come up to stairs and Make love to me and he said I can't do both You know at the you know In other words, haha, can't go with the stairs and take it. Does anybody get that? Why thought that was actually pretty good?

“That was actually the only thing I thought was good in this whole freaking stupid speech that they wrote”

That was the only good one and that went down with not exactly great laughter Oh, thank you. No, I know the words you can't go up the stairs So we'll look at the term limits. Does anybody understand is that we will have thing on sloppy Chris Christie one of the sloppiest human beings you've ever made fighting I would say I could mention the governor of Chicago, but I'm gonna mention instead during Adler

And they're fighting for a big piece of cheesecake big fat piece of cheesecake. Good. I'll wrote that line Barack Hussein Obama hosted it. Do you know who that is? And he hit me hard and I have watched this clip thousands of times they keep playing it because they think that was evening I decided to run for president. It was not he actually showed a picture of the White House Where the big Trump on top like I put a sign and you know, I'm sorry to do in that when you think about it, right now

We have all said previously that Trump can be genuinely funny

That was so bad that I almost started feeling sorry for Donald Trump which has never happened

But like that was incredibly painful especially the the sex up the stairs joke when he goes and then he's like Oh, that was one of the better jokes and then one more time He's like because it's like the third explanation of the joke. Did you see that he stole that joke to? Yeah, from Brad Brad Paysley, Leary. Well, it's a classic bushbell joke, and it could have worked. The reason I didn't work is he We've done many of these speeches. You're trying to get it. It's a it's a you're doing stand up 10 15 minutes

Senator's being old. He's described how much he hates half the people in the room Called Don Lemon Dunn. He said Adam Shiva's an ugly fat-head. He hates Colbert compared Caitlyn Collins to Dylan Mulvaney

“Colz Josh Jossie unhirable right if you want to pull it to her right in the word”

And then he's like anyway anyway, boy your senators are old these days Right, so of course, but at the time you get to that part like they've been sitting there for 45 minutes

It's brutal. He's never read the speed. This is the other thing. It's like you've got a

I know he he thinks that he's a genius and can just go off script whenever you got a practice to speech like that Can you imagine Trump like practicing jokes? No, I can't but he had like one good Barry Wise joke He had a couple like well structured jokes that he even the Barry Wise joke, which was good He didn't like he didn't deliver it well like he could have delivered it in the funnier way But also, I think it was in the prepared remarks. There's like a like a portion of his stump about Gavin Newsom and California

That he seemed to be reading off the teleprompter and it and so like he says horrible things about Elon Omar like he just goes into his sort of vicious and cool mean spirited Rit thing and so the whole like he doesn't he goes pokes a little bit of fun at himself here and there But like of course

“There's not gonna be people laughing it deeply uncomfortable to be an event that's supposed to be light-hearted”

And you just like go for the juggernaut like you would it a rally just like you're not built for this because you're such a fucking asshole

You know the comedy seller at 11 p.m. You're in front of the most over sensitive people you can find in you're being so me By the way, didn't Jerry now alert like hit the GLP ones a couple years ago and he's lost a ton of weight Yeah, yeah, he's the red thing made no sense and he did he he when he talked about Pritzker the governor of Chicago He did he mentioned that as well too. He's like he's actually looking better. He's looking better He's just a dick is really the problem, but it started kind of magnanimous because like he did this whole bit of the top about how like the last dinner was bad

And celebrated the you know the cops who kept everybody safe and said how that they had to you know They wouldn't let the the show get canceled because that lets the shooter win and then just went into this Tyrate and when you looked at the all the cuts to the audience when you watch the whole thing It was like It's just silent and also I know there's there was a room full of journalists. They don't like Trump

But like all of his administration all of his people were there no one was laughing Yeah, the just like the funniest thing was when he got the laugh there and said I thought that was the best joke in the bunch Yeah, it were the whole thing is very ugly right because he's going after Katelyn Collins and all these journalists And this really personal and sort of obviously misogynist way and then you have Like the the the the like reporters on the desk kind of like trying to like laugh and they're

It the whole thing was ugly and so then you have like New York Times reporters like Peter Baker being like we should Read this dinner, which is they're on their high horse about the fucking dinner because they haven't gone forever and are glad for that

“This is the credit. Yeah, but yeah, what did anyone expect from him was he going to learn this time?”

Obviously, this is who he is and what do you want to say by the like he says once he had two jokes about Katelyn Collins One was

Suggesting she looked like Dillon Mulvaney what she just said, but then also being like Katelyn Collins never smiles

He says that to her all the time at press conferences every time she asked him a tough question He's like, what's your problem? You're pretty girl smile. He's the sexist old man and like he doesn't do that It's part of a comedy bed. It's part of his like stump deflection routine for hard questions like he's just a shithead. Yeah. He's a shithead might be time to retire The dinner's not the course of the dinner will now that we've moved it to the the the the former Trump hotel

Now the world of the story of smaller, so they may have a hard edge for the ballroom being Well, we knock down the arch in ways to get the gold leaf off the White House and we restore independence of the Department of Justice At the bottom of that list, we can decide what we want to do with what happened to the White House cars class problem for sure I just probably though Remaining rump state of media

Didn't stick around for the mentalist had to say I didn't didn't catch a nose He didn't he did give he did do the joke which was if you're such a mentalist, how come you didn't know the shooting was coming out the joke everyone made the night of the shooting Yeah Is this still funny a couple months later? No, they work. I look crazy. All right when we come back Ben Wichler Potta America's brought to you by time summer adds up fast a trip here dinner there a couple concerts a visit to an amusement park

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Chime is a fintech not a bank banking services and time card provided by chimes bank partners qualifying direct deposits required terms and limits apply go to chime.com/disclosures for details Been with her. Welcome back to the show. It's great to be with you. Congrats on the new studio. Thank you. This is pretty sweet pretty fancy All right, so I want to get to the book But first I have to take advantage of the Entirely coincidental but highly opportune timings of you being here and ask about the

Messy gubernatorial primary in your beloved state and the messy leadership situation at the DNC Which you ran to be chair of I know you well. You are far too wise in generous to shit on Ken Martin I've got that covered But I really want your your honest thoughts on the DNC's financial situation Ken's argument is That a party is not a savings account the he chose to spend early on

Organizers and technology and state party infrastructure and that's also like more or less your argument The argument you make in the book

But of course the party is now two million dollars in debt while the RNC's sitting on

28.5 million dollars in cash So do you buy his defense that that's just the cost of investing early?

“So I agree that you should invest early and the goal what you want is to be able to do both”

You want to be able to both have the money to invest in in places that will take years to You know be able to build the power to win statewide, but their state lettuce that raises everywhere where we can win And you also want to have the ability to invest in the places where elections are closest and highest stakes and then you tip those over the top and I think the challenge right now is there's Not quite enough money to do either the other thing that's new in this moment is the U.S. Supreme Court ruling

That allows parties to invest in an unlimited support for federal candidates was constant had a version of that

That was started under Scott Walker. We call it the Scott Walker loophole and it is the way that we beat Elon Musk and you know

Who outspends us dramatically is that the democratic party was constant was able to raise money and then transfer it to our candidate Who got a lower rate for TV ads than the super back ads that that Elon Musk was funding in our state We also had a you know better message better candidate and didn't have Elon Musk hanging around our neck But the And huge grassroots organizing talk about that in the book

But right now that means that national committees could do a ton more if they have the money to be able to do it to support candidates in the places Especially for candidates who don't have huge fundraising abilities on their own But who have totally winnable seats and who if they have the the funds to get their message out can win and places that are maybe You're off the national radar So this is a time when having more funds at the DNC having more funds of the other national committees makes it enormous difference and I

What I want is you know for Ken and for the DNC to be as successful as possible

“I think there's a huge opportunity in this election”

Including a lot of places right now where Republicans aren't investing and don't realize how mad voters are so Yeah, if I wait the magic wand There's a flood of money that comes in and we're able to to invest in you know winning sometimes in Squeakers in a whole bunch of places that expand the map and Safe guard the future of American democracy

Well, yeah, so That's what you just said I mean you raised and spent $63 million dollars and $2024 for the Wisconsin Democratic Party. That's right

Which is a little more than the entire Democratic National Committee has raised so far in 2026 is the honest answer here that spending early only works if you can also raise and the raising is the failure here

“I I mean there's I think there's a lot of puzzle pieces here. I think that right now”

There's a kind of like Vista circle where there's negative new cycles that then make it hard to go out and say this is a good time to invest And I think that start changing when people see oh, yeah If I donate here, it's gonna have a big impact on making making things better and winning elections and I think that's You know, maybe that that change starts right here in the pot

Maybe but whatever whatever it is like we can't As long as we're in circular firing squad mode and not You know pointing to to where we need to like throw our shoulders against the wheel to save the country It's very hard to get out of that cycle and also like the election is 99 days away There's a huge opportunity to like flood the zone in the places where elections are likely to be

Titus and where a push can make the difference and I will add that that is not just House and Senate races like at all levels. There's gonna be state legislative contest that have enormous significance One thing in a I think the New York Times story was about the DNC helping Mississippi break the Republican Supermajority at the state level That I love like that was a hundred thousand dollar investment played a role in sure there are a ton of other people involved as well But breaking Republican Supermajorities in deep red states can have a enormous impact on the future of things like redistricting

Look at the whole map of how power is built in wielding this country

The right keeps using its power to rig everything so that only a handful of people can write the rules for all of us But if you can unreg the system often at the state and local level those races are often much less expensive and have huge up ballot consequences

“And I think it is it is good to think as a party about how to fight at all those levels. It wants in the interest of fixing things”

What would you do about the money situation if you were in Ken's position right now? I would Which I'm sure Ken is also working on I try to raise more money so that you have more money to invest in the various things and that to me The the biggest thing is being able to lay out if you invest here is how we're gonna be able to win more fights that that folks care about there's often you know when people think about the correcting influence of money in politics, which

You know, you only have to look at the news to see the corrupting influence of money in politics Yeah, but very often it's about policies that particular candidates or elected officials hold parties are not where people who want to Change policy. It's not where they give especially when there's not a democratic president What parties do is they help create infrastructure for victories or losses and so the way to raise money for the democratic party It's fundamentally to to instill trust to demonstrate the results that come from those investments and I

For all the kind of debate about the 50 states strategy. I think one of the things that is really helpful is when you see what's being done In particular states with those investments that actually generate to like troll victory and then it makes you enthusiastic about investing

“And I think there's a lot of stories like that that I would love to”

I'd love to see more of and hear more about I think about you know some of the state parties that are doing amazing work like North Carolina

there's this huge focus on Like local organizing that's going to affect things like the state supreme court race on the country's not thinking about the North Carolina State Supreme Court But the only reason Republicans have a majority in the U.S. House right now is because Republicans want a state supreme court race there in 2020 by four hundred one votes one one hundredth of one percent of all the votes cast in the state

But that put in place chief justice who drove the jury mandering they gave the National Republicans their house majority at this moment and there's a supreme court race there this November And need it or all this up for reelection if she wins they could win a majority Democrats could win a majority by 2028 and that could lead to the Dejury mandering of that state and you know effect the the future of America and democracy and

Those are the kinds of things that state parties specializing and supporting state parties to do that kind of work has a huge effect I you know I'm partial to my own state of Wisconsin, which we can all agree is the best state But it's also a place where our state party has been deeply involved in state lettuce that of races My role races states supreme court elections this fall We have a chance to win both chambers of the state legislature and across the country

Most people I I regret to admit are not thinking about the Wisconsin state legislative battle of 2026, but that fight could dictator proof was constant before 2028 we were the closest state in the country to having the election overturned after 2020 We know Trump is going to try to pull something next time he is in danger of losing power

“You you locked down democracy at the state level or rather unreg democracy at the state level that is the best way to defend”

National elections going forward and those are the kinds of races that you know have supporting state parties right now And the DNC is doing a lot of supporting state parties can have a huge effect on so I I look at the you know it is very painful to read the stories that are unfolding everyone experiences that I'm sure everyone within the DNC is you know, not not thrilled about those stories on folding But there are giant opportunities that are right there where a small investment can make a huge outsides impact because

Donald Trump's I have saw on is not on those races, but we can put our eye on the ball and we can win and we can fight yeah I think I'm most worried about is Like the DNC doesn't play the biggest role in the midterms regardless, right the other party of committees do and the state parties do Certainly play a big role in the 2028 race and especially with that Supreme Court decision now we'll play a big role because people can donate now much more to the DNC and I can help the campaign directly and

The stories are awful to read no one wants that we all want to Democrat party to be successful in the DNC to be successful I think what strikes me is that because they're coming from Inside the DNC and the DNC members It makes me think that Those are people who also don't want bad press, but are at this point like

I'm talk I'd rather talk and have the bad stories and try to fix the situation than continue to see this unfold and I just thought today Rufus Gifford, I'm true in a Rufus who Finance director of the DNC has been finance director work there for eight years loves the place You know said today that the DNC is quote spiraling towards irrelevance and so they can is a good man with good intentions

It's simply not meeting this critical moment

Do you agree? I am the guy who lost the election for DNC chair and I am the last person you want to be armchair quarterback

But the same you know kind of strategy that he and I both think is really critical to winning elections at every level

So I you know, I don't want to be in the middle of this. I hear you not running for DNC myself like I My goal is to spread a message to a much wider number of people about what everyone can I have a chapter in my book about the democratic party with the title. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to Something many you know people feel it very moments and at all levels and the argument that I make is that the democratic party However you feel about it

It's actually has a door that is wide up and shockingly open and it is easier to join the democratic party In whatever state people live in then to join the Benevolent order of the Elx or like it even the old the 20th century social civic organizations

“There's not some set of boxes that you have to check you can get involved and then you can you can”

Revitalize the party where you are you can turn it into a vessel for organizing and fighting and I talk to people who are like running for county Parties here all across the country who are mad about the way things are going right now and then they realize Hey, if I get a bunch of people together and we get involved We can just like take over around here and then we can start working to flip the city councils and we can win judicial races We can flip take legislative seats. There are so many blue states where there are people in offices

They are not using them to have the biggest impact that they could and there are so many places in red states where there's very little democratic party organization But you can you if you build enough power you can push through and you can make huge change and then in purple states It is shocking how few votes wind up tipping the entire thing So if if anyone who's frustrated about the democratic party you right now Become the democratic party and build a kind of party that you want to be part of like it is is just right there and it is a

It's a vessel for organizing that I'm like everything else It exists everywhere in every county in every community and if we can if we can make it stronger and we can make it a

“Body that fights for things that benefit everyone then I think it has a huge change on the whole future of the country”

Your book is Excellent it is is tailor made for our audience. So I hope everyone buys it Okay, called this is the plan give us the cliff note version of what the plan is sure so plan starts with you not just you John, but you the reader viewer listener And the thing that each of us can do I have a chapter called unleash your super power, which is about Both the kind of art and science and practice of organizing of getting people together to do something they wouldn't otherwise do

So I dig in to how to have the biggest effect with your with your volunteer hours if you can chip in money The kinds of stuff that makes the biggest difference and then I map out drawing on the story of how we Unraged our state legislative mass and Wisconsin, which is this huge multi-year fight that took a bunch of different offices I traced out what we can do nationwide to unreg our system which right now pretty clearly is a system where a handful of far-right billionaires Right through rules for everyone else to enrich themselves and all of our expense. So how do we do that?

step one

In twenty twenty six, let's absolutely fight for house and senate majorities, but the states are the most critical battlefield because

Especially if we win trifect Democratic trifectas in the battleground states a you can you can pass laws in those states That prevent Trump from being able to steal the twenty twenty eight election Elections are run by the states. So this is you know if you have people who refuse to play along with coup attempts It makes all the difference in the world You can also defame the electoral college. There's this law called the national popular vote interstate compact which is a long nerdy name for an

Amazing bill

“That has been passed already in 18 states the nitvic nips that's what I call it. I came up with a way to pronounce the and the unpronounceable acronym”

That's great because every time I say I didn't even I've never said the acronym and I'm always like a National compact something voter. Yeah, maybe rhymes with lipstick nitvic. We got a spread nitvic across the country If we if no other thing happens if we all be able to find a way to stay nitpicked and I will not be satisfied with the impact of the book, but I'll be happy. So That is a bill that if we pass it through the states where Democrats can win trifectas in

2026 you can you can make it so that whoever wins the national popular vote wins the presidential election

Because states decide where they put their electoral college votes. It is very very close to actually happening and basically

So it's like a back door way of Eliminating the electoral college because the constitution gives states the power the ultimate power to decide how they Assign their electors so the state legislatures can decide we're going to assign our electors to the winner of The national popular vote And then that way you can kind of go around the electoral college. That's exactly it. So I was actually talking to Heather Cox Richardson

It read you know historian about this and she was pointing out to me that originally Overwhelmingly states gave their electoral college votes on a proportional basis the way that like Nebraska and Maine still do And then a few states realize starting with Thomas Jefferson and Virginia that if you made his state Go for whoever won the majority

The only way to get back to a proportional system is if all of is if enough states decided jump together

So this is what special about this laws that it only takes effect When enough states have passed the law to choose the next president Which means that you know you're not like you're going to throw away your vote or delete your power Until the moment when everyone holds hands jumps together and then all two 70 plus electoral college votes Of states that have passed this law go to whoever wins the national popular vote and then it transforms this country like we end

The the era of swing states and states every person's ballot counts the same the fight for voting right flaws in every state suddenly effect the whole national picture It's you know it would be complicated and and messy, but also glorious and I want it so bad. I love it I've thought about it for a while now and I've been like keeping track of how close we're getting to like the So close. Yeah, we're pretty close now

Are you worried about the legal challenges or that like whether it survives legal challenges because there's a few

There's a few argument legal arguments about like why it might be tricky to pull off and one of the more practical ones is that like It wouldn't get challenged until Like in the midst of an election so it has provisions in and about like how to be able to withdraw from it and so forth

“Yeah, it's been like scrutinized in a whole bunch of different ways and I think it's I looks legally signed to me”

I'm not I'm not a lawyer myself. I will say Even if it is completely legally legit I say that this Supreme Court might find some basis so much just strike it down So that goes to another thing. Are you for the book? There you go. So yeah step one we've been the states We start moving in Nipfix through the state through more state legislatures

We need 48 more electoral college votes to be able to put it into effect So when trifectes and Wisconsin Michigan Pennsylvania Nevada Arizona New Hampshire Boom more than enough like for all college votes great. Let's add Alaska while we're at it. Yeah But then 2028 comes along and we we Existentially have to win presidency house and U.S. Senate and

I think ideally we win a majority of the house delegations in a majority of states so that if Trump Once again tries to mess with the electoral college if it's still in place in the way that it is right now That and the election goes to a vote in the house of house delegations that the elections not overturned through another coup attempts which How close to rate of a majority of house delegations are far we are far right now We ran right now

Republicans have 30 house delegation majorities okay and we have two elections cycles to be able to change that and so That is totally doable and you can borrow. It's not crazy far. It's not crazy. Yeah and there are enough states where we where we can absolutely be able to To win it means organizing in places like Alaska where from 1 by 14 percentage points But is now obviously unpopular and Mary Paltola could win the Senate race we can win the house race We could win the governorship there we could have

Multi party coalition in the legislature Like Iowa we could win a majority of the house seats as well as the governorship the attorney general's race the the U.S. Senate race like There are there are ways that we can flip House delegation majorities that also by the way make life better for people in those states and when U.S. Senate majorities So big map big battlefield lots to do and my argument to people is work where you are to improve policies

Build organized locally and then choose some places maybe one place where elections are really close It could be adopting a house district it could be deciding to you know adopt a state legislative chamber And pour yourself get a group of friends together pour yourself into making a difference in that place too This is boat safe America's adopt a state project. There you go pioneering in this regard if you do that for a couple hours a month Then you know add up enough months and you can have a gigantic impact especially if you you know find a way to make it fun with your friends

Maybe involving alcohol or you know some kind of beverage like there's lots of there's lots of ways to do this they can

“Feel really good when you win this is one of the reasons I think we have so many volunteers and Wisconsin is we've found”

We lean into so many different fights people have the experience of being part of winning something often something very close over and over

And it feels incredible to like stay up late watch their turns come in and realize that you help make the difference in a

Nailbider election that changes everything so best feeling in the world best feeling if you're political nerd. Yeah, I mean If you're not it'll make it'll it'll be a pretty good it'll turn you into blood It's landslides are great like they love those too, but the like if we're winning landslides then our maps not big enough You know, I mean like there's so many places where One more push can get us over the edge and let's do those places too. So

28 we win the federal threat fact that we get through whatever cool attempt that is that Donald Trump tries to pull and we thank goodness that we elected pro democracy mayors and governors and attorneys general who fought back against whatever Trump shenanigans turn out to be We have a new president they do an inaugural address to great speech they have an even bigger crowd than Trump's 2016 inaugural We're thrilled and then and this is a big and then

We we have to actually abolish the filibuster and pass fundamental democracy reform to unreg the American system of government

“And that that is I go sort of level by level of the American political system in the book and who's working on it?”

Where we need to win to be able to change it, but my argument that all kind of rolls up to the plan and this is the plan

Add states to the unbalanced the U.S. Senate we have to reform the U.S. Supreme Court

“I think term limits is the most most interesting option if if the U.S. Supreme Court decides that”

Congress doesn't have the power to do that then he certainly has the power to expand the number of justices So there's another option there too right we have to have some combination of a national jury-mandering ban And doubling the size of the house. I'm really interested in proportional representation for U.S. House members with multi-member districts These are ideas that a lot of people don't know about right now are right about them in the book There's like lots of countries that do this in the American history these things have happened before

But the system right now where we've got it the voting rights act where we we can have the country completely rigged after each census and even in between the census So most House districts voters have no real say where Republicans have a structural advantage in the U.S. Senate plus A filibuster that only blocks things the Democrats might want to do essentially it allows tax cuts for rich people and Confirmations to Supreme Court justices and then this imperial presidency chosen through the electoral college

That Congress can't act to do anything about because of the filibuster and the courts won't do anything because they have a hammer lock in the U.S. Supreme Court It just doesn't work it doesn't work to have a country that has a huge diversity of views in which our structures are built to Ratchet things just to the right and so what we've experienced this century Is more than any other time in American history a series of change elections where people are fed up and they vote for change

And when Republicans come they're like not found like that The Republicans screaming up and when Democrats come in a whole bunch of the stuff that they campaign on they can't do because the system is is set up to block it the U.S. Supreme

“Court strikes it down the Senate filibuster blocks it and so a lot of people feel and I think rightly”

But the economic system is not working for them that like basic things like being able to get health care or child care They vote for people who say that they're gonna deliver it and then it doesn't come through and If you ask yourself why that is it is generally not that Democrats have a failure of nerve to you know To vote for the thing they want the house passes these things over and over again It's because we have a system that is rigged against delivering for regular people and so

This is the plan maps up the plan to change that in a way that We've changed how the government functions over and over throughout history and then about a half century ago We stopped we stopped the minimum in the Constitution we stopped adding states We stopped changing how yeah Senator elected we stopped changing the size of the house. We stopped changing the size of the Supreme Court All those things used to change regularly and

We've been stuck in this kind of failure mode where the change that people are vote for organized for a cryout for

“Never comes and I think at this time to change”

The delivery vehicle for change itself and restore the vision of The best traditions of our country in the best moments in the the founding of this country, which is a system of government That actually adapts to be able to respond to the crises and needs of the time where the right of the people as You know as it says in the declaration of independence to make their government actually work is is made real So I don't know if people realize or remember because now it was all of five years ago

How close we were in 21 to getting rid of the filibuster to pass the John Lewis voting rights act. Yeah It was just mansion in cinema We're the only Democrats not willing to remove the filibuster They're both gone yeah

Cinema was replaced with Gaia go who's totally favorite of that. Yep, so just need it We basically need a 51 vote majority and hopefully if we elect some some of these new senators and some of these top states they'll be there as well You bring up the 2030 then becomes a pretty important year not to get too far. However ourselves But it's part of the plan because we do all these things in 28 One part of your plan is to for Democrats to survive the 2030 backlash

We know there's always a backlash after the trip factor. There was in 2010 that you know there could be in 2030

If this all comes to pass and I wonder what you think about because you're right there and you have the stat in the book that there've been more Sort of change elections like party switching power in the last however many years Then they'll have been like all throughout history is like last couple decades 2000 We've had more chance in the White House the U.S. House and the U.S. Senate than any other time in history and I wonder like

Is there sometimes I wonder this too is there evidence that delivering Actual change tangible change that that improves people's lives Makes them satisfied enough to not vote for change again considering that you know Biden passed quite a bit in his first couple years He passed the similar checks aside from those yeah the climate investments everything that was in the the bill back Better bill that was more long-term investments

Do you think that an addition to those democracy reforms in 28 Democrats need to pass legislation that like improves people's lives?

Absolutely like within those first two years. Yes, that's the whole thing so

I want to respond kind of at three level sure all right level one at the micro level

Discussion of is that when Biden came in the emergency measures to deal with the COVID pandemic the Expanded unemployment insurance the childcare tax credit there was a set of things that dramatically increased the kind of

Disposable income for especially like the bottom third economically of the country

And it was incredibly popular at that time And then it all went away and so even though it is true that like wages grew from the bottom up in the in the Biden economy For a ton of Americans especially the people who we were having the toughest luck in the economy They they got a bunch of help and then suddenly the carpet was yanked that from under them and at the same time as prices were rising So their experience was that their their

Wages their income went down at the same time as prices were going up and those are the exact voters Who went for Trump for the first time in either of our lives and people under earning less than $50,000 a year voted Republican in the 2024 presidential election So I actually think we sort of have a counter example like we have an example for ourselves of if people are experiencing material pain Then they will vote for change

That part we know that part we know we kind of saw that right and and around the world in every country the governing Party went up losing ground in developed democracies in 2024 as I as I right and prices inflation Cost of living was the biggest issue everywhere, but we actually were doing the doing something serious about it and then we stopped and that was

“There was some policy design choices in there that I you know, I think we should rethink how we how we think about that stuff in the future”

So that's kind of micro level the second level is The I was once talking to a administration official who said When you propose a policy it's popular when it's being passed it's unpopular when it's being implemented It's unpopular but when the other side tries to take it away becomes popular again And before they say it was perfect example, right and

You know the battle like a bunch of different policies that have been good for people have this quality and To me the the goal of politics you win in order to be able to Like past policies that make people's lives better so It is you know, it might not be that there's an immediate policy reward and especially policies that take a while to actually like implement and get them going It might be that you are kind of creating something that the other side can't take away that creates an enduring

For people and I think that the ACA is proven to be an enormous help for Democrats 2018 Republicans try to take it away and it was the number one issue and once again Republicans cutting Medicaid spending that was you know expanded through the ACA it is an explosive issue that helps Democrats right now So I do think that there's even if it takes a couple cycles I do think there's like a pretty clear path that you can draw towards if you do stuff to help people

Then the party that tries to scrap it takes a price and if we are the party that keeps doing the good things then the Rubble against trying to scrap it have a price but the last thing There's this the very macro level this concept in political science of political orders which is Essentially what's not controversial in a period of time is the thing that tells you the most about that period so after The New Deal there was Eisenhower came in and he did not try to rip up the New Deal

The political order for decades was That the New Deal programs and the sort of set of economic guarantees Those were beyond politics and we're Reagan through Reagan exactly and then came the neoliberal ordering and Reagan and Reagan You know you're new investing in deregulation and a bunch of stuff that is you know still raging through American politics And a lot of that stuff wasn't contested both parties were kind of fighting on that terrain

“The the really big goal is to build a new political order and I think what we want is a political order for the future where”

Which party you know wins might change hands? But that certain things are actually built in to me things that start with Ensuring that nobody is like going broke because they get sick or nobody is unable to afford a place to live There's an economic guarantees and then the second well there's three things I want one is Like make the economy actually work for working people and I think union rights and

You know and the way our social insurance program for her to critical elements of that there's a bunch of others

The second thing is some rights and freedoms that like need to be guaranteed and protected by the federal government that are Absolutely under assault right now in a way that is has been you know shocking they're trying to repeal the civil rights movement and You know and so much else and it's like any group that has achieved Freedom and equality in this country as being targeted by this administration and a lot of this stuff was nonpartisan low-stake stuff that the both parties agreed in a different moment that they were you know bipartisan

Majority's love the public is still bipartisan majority for reproductive freedom

“They there was a period you remember when Republicans attacked trans people in North Carolina”

And really like a giant uproar this idea that attacking trans people is is this great popular Regist you for Republicans doesn't need to be that way the public

Is not always naturally inflamed about you know whether gender identity should be a political battlefield

for most of Yeah, there are periods when the fight over this basic question of whether we'll have majority rule in this country

Isn't really up for grabs every election and one reason why we keep telling ourselves that the next election is the most important election of our lifetimes is

Because we keep having this This the question of whether it will be the last free election in America ever has right I'd like to get a little bit away from the precipice and

“That leaves tons of stuff that we can contest and I think the you know the a natural access that makes sense is the kind of like”

What is you know this kind of size of government roll of government in public life that there's lots of different issues that Divide most Republicans from most Democrats that we can argue over and I think having competitive pressure Pushed as both parties to try to figure out how to govern more effectively. I think like excellence in public service and government is produced more when they're Electrical stakes and you might lose power if you don't do a good job. Yeah, all those things are good But building a political order where these kind of like you don't feel as though the the ground might

Crack open beneath you and and swallow not every elections like a mannequin struggle. Yeah, I would like

I like to turn down the stakes a little bit and you know

Then we can you can I don't know if it would be helpful for the political podcasting business if if fun yeah I'll take this right okay the trick speed of high stakes. I know that you're staying neutral in the primary in Wisconsin in the Governors race until the bitter end. I know you're not neutral in wanting a democratic governor In that state who will be responsible for among other things Certifying the presidential result in 2028

Is that a reason for primary voters and Wisconsin to think about electability differently this year than they normally would

“I think that Wisconsin voters think about electability a lot”

We have over and over Experience yeah What happens when we lose? It's not be good. We've had the Wisconsin I argue in the book Wisconsin is like a mini version of what the country's going through right now

Because we had our authoritarian breakthrough came and Scott Walker won in 2010 and then tried to rigor political system

And you know defund schools and public services and smashed unions all this stuff the same way Donald Trump has done on a national level now So we have experienced our own state level You know authoritarian moment the same way lots of states in the south have continued to experience it And I think there's a big debate about you know what is the electable right now? Who's going to vote? How do you energize people And then this like trade off of like what do you get when you win?

What is the issue that motivates you all that is like legitimate grounds for Having a debate and for for people making the different arguments Wisconsin has this great tradition I write about in the book is the birthplace of the progressive movement Capital people aggressive movement and one of the reforms of the progressive movement that started in Wisconsin's left the nation is Directed primaries to choose your nominee where the people decide who the nominee will be

And the party when the democratic party was constant which I used to chair and I'm a advisor to the new chair Different members I think doing a killer job very hard job one of the party's core commitments in our Constitution is that the party itself Doesn't put it's time on the scale even if elected officials and public you know citizens and groups and unions Everybody does their different endorsements the party is neutral in the primary so that voters can decide to They want their nominee to be and then the party can play a role of saying to everybody hey

Like even though that was tough and you know messaging complicated We're gonna like put that behind us. We're gonna unite. We're gonna do everything we can to shoot through concrete and win the general election

“And that that is my own role and the spite and that's what I invite everyone to do”

There's no confident that no matter who wins the primary that I mean you know all these candidates personally Do you think that all of them like could could definitely beat on Tiffany? I think that there's a path with each of these candidates and I think that what that path looks like is actually a little different with the different candidates And they are building the coalitions around them based on their approach to campaigning and they're They're arguments they're making the positions that they have and their own stories and

And the the thing that would cause us to lose is if we lose the nerve to say that we can win If if Democrats decide after that after the primary that oh well, I guess we're not gonna win then they will not win But if they say you know what this is a state where over and over 13 times since 2000 We've had elections that come down to one percentage point or less and it like Donating that extra buck like knocking on that extra door calling that extra friend could be the thing that tips the entire state

If we bring that kind of will to the race I think that any of the candidates can beat Tom Tiffany and Wisconsin could be a thriving democracy for the future last question what is your thought process like As you consider potentially running in the state that you love in Wisconsin

Well, I love the living shit out of my state. I just think Wisconsin is the greatest state And I I will think about you know what I do in the future in the future. I think my my just obsession right now is

Remember and those will come probably down to a couple hundred votes in a and a few different communities around the state like it is

“It has been the work of years to unreg our state legislative maps to get to this point where we we have a shot at winning”

Majorities in both legislative chambers and next year could be a blooming of democracy and and workers rights and Ability of folks to get health care all this stuff if we can win the trifecta in Wisconsin in the next 99 days

So I'm I have this book. I want to spread the gospel of like rolling up recently was getting involved

I want to make sure that people see The the kind of hope that we've experienced in my state by building this kind of permanent campaign on a year-round basis I want more places to do that and then I'm gonna just throw myself into with everything I've got into the fight in my state

Then I'll figure out what's next. Well, I've said this on the pod when you're not here that

Is a is a democrat in a citizen I want to do to be DNC chair

“Because I think it would have been good for the party and good for the country as your friend”

sort of glad you're not But when it comes to running for office in Wisconsin as a citizen and democrat and your friend I would love you. I would love to see you to run one of these days. So I'm think about it honored by the sentiment We need more than Whickler in the America, so let's let's zero in or what all of us can do Right now that is that is my message that is the plan man. This is the plan. That's he's on message

“That's why we love the fight Ben Whickler. Thanks so much. Thanks so much in”

That's our show for today. Thanks to Ben Whickler for coming on. Dan and I will be back with a new episode on Friday. Pods of America is a cricket media production. Our show is produced by Austin Fisher, Saul Rubin, McKenna Roberts and Ferris Safari with Reed Charlene, Elijah Cone and Adrian Hill. Our team includes Matt DeGroat, Ben Hefcoat, Jordan Cantor, Charlotte Landis, Carol Pelevi, David Tolz, Mia Kelman, Ryan Young, and Naomi Single. Our staff is probably unionized with the

the writer's guild of America East.