The Gondolier

And I want to play you an episode today that we first put out in 2017.

And the reason is because I still think about this story all the time. It was both a real challenge and a joy to work on, because it's the story of a person who had to face off against literally the entire world. And against our most ingrained ways of seeing the world and each other all just to be who they really are. That person is named Alex High.

And in this episode, we meet Alex sort of in the middle of that struggle. And as you'll hear in the show, it doesn't end at the end of the story. So I got to hold Alex to find out what happened next. So if you stick around for the end, you'll hear Alex telling me about a whole second act

“to this story, which honestly I found very moving.”

But first, I'm just going to play you the original piece, which is called the Gondolier. >> Yeah, you wait, you're the same. >> No. >> Okay. >> No. >> You're listening to Radio Lab. >> Radio from WNY. >> WNY. >> Hey, hey, hey. >> Why? >> Hey, I'm Jada Bumran. >> I'm Robert Crowwich. >> This is Radio Lab. >> Today we have the story of just how hard it can be to be who you

actually are. When it seems like the entire world is doing it's best to make you who you actually aren't. >> Well, I guess I could, I mean, this could be too many details. But the story starts for us with reporter David Conrad. So for me, it was back in late 2014. I was living in Philadelphia as a grad student. >> And it's a time David was lying for jobs. And one of the jobs he was applying for was at a radio show that was doing the series

about international women's issues. And so I had this on my mind, and I was taking a bus to the university, and I just overheard somebody talking about their recent trip to Venice. And of course, the classic tourist thing to do when you go to Venice is to take a ride on the canal boats, the Gondolas. You know, go down the canal. Maybe someone sings to the famous song. It's very romantic. In a case, the person sitting on the bus next to David was telling their

friend that they had taken a Gondola ride with this first ever woman Gondolaire in Venice.

“>> Yeah, and then we were like poking around and we realized, like, how?”

>> But how did this become a wee? >> No, who are you? >> I'm Kristen. >> Kristen Clark also a journalist, radio producer. And she and David are partners and collaborators. >> I mean, and this is, it was interesting, he's like, we realized, like, how big a deal it is to be a female Gondolaire? This is like, it's like a 900-year-old tradition. >> 900 here. >> Yeah.

>> All men. >> Yeah, all men. And it's always passed, father, son, father, son, or, like,

uncle, nephew, down the line. >> So this is, like, this has been no ladies, now, no ladies, then no ladies, ever. >> Yeah, it is 900 years. >> Yeah, just think about that for a second. Almost a thousand years of all men, men, men, men, men, men, men, and then one day, you get a woman. >> Right. >> As a headline, woman breaks through 900-year-old glass ceiling. >> I thought that sounds like a good pitch. >> Are you kidding? It sounds like God kissed you in those days. >> Yeah, exactly.

It sounded like the perfect empowerment story, I guess. >> Yeah, and so we're kind of just, like, googling it. And, like, it's all over the media. >> Seems like every outlet from the Guardian to the New York Times to the Financial Times to the Cedar Rapids Gazette, to the New York Times, made it all the way to Cedar Rapids. >> Yeah, to newspapers and Germany and China and Australia. And, they all, all the articles laid out the same basic story. It was this Algerian woman from Germany,

named Alex Hay, showed up in Venice 20 years ago, got around a Gondolares association that never

wanted to see a woman become a Gondolares, and eventually became the first ever female Gondolares Venice, the whole thing, of course, sparking this giant gender war. But, that was sort of it. Pretty much the headline and a picture was the story. Many of the articles didn't actually have all that many quotes from Alex. And so, for me, it sounded like a great simple opportunity to go back and tell a deeper story. >> Yeah, just like, who is this person? Why would somebody be so

hell bent on getting into this club that just so clearly does not want them? >> Yeah. >> So, we email Alex. >> Just, we're interested in your story. We're wondering if you might be willing to spend a few days with us this summer, and I was hoping it would just be like, yes, I'm happy to meet with you for a couple hours, and that would have been great. But, we got an email

“back right away that said, "If you come, do this story, you have to spend a week with me."”

>> A week? >> Yeah. And then, there are all these questions about who we were as journalists,

and like one of the suburbs in Marguerri, even though it's cheaper, like you have to be in the city.

I want to hear these sounds at this time. I have a vision for things. >> Did you have the sense that there was something a little odd? >> Yeah. >> And, I mean, the message was definitely, I want to tell a different story. Did you have any idea what that meant? >> No idea. >> But, I had that, I could wait in my head. >> All right, so we flew to the Venice airport,

took a bus to city center. >> I was really fast. >> We stepped off the bus, and you could smell the salt in there from the Grand Canal, and it was kind of raining a little bit, it was around midnight. >> We're kind of, you know, getting our bearings, grabbing our bags, and we, we look up and across the parking lot. There's Alex. >> Standing under a lamp post, just leaning against it with a cigarette, smoke kind of curling up into the light of the street lamp.

“>> Short hair. Dark, it was slicks back. Do you think you were in a Fellini movie?”

>> Honestly, I didn't know what to think. This person was legit under a lamp, smoking. >> I was so quick. >> Up close, Alex looked taller than I expected. The strong build, kind of a face that was a little weathered, like someone who works outside all day on the water. >> I was finishing quite late, so when you call it, I just finished. >> Oh, perfect.

>> I almost have light. >> It was long. It was, you know, we flew to Moscow first, which is.

>> And since it was late, we made a plan with Alex to meet up at 545pm the next day. On the steps of La Finice Opera House. >> Okay, beautiful to go Opera House. >> Yeah. >> I was rushing out to find you, so I left all the mess in the Gondola. So anyway, the plan was to go out on a Gondola ride. >> Which was one of Alex's demands in that first email. So we walk around the corner to where the Gondola is parked. And the boat is just like shining.

>> So the Gondola was made for three people. >> Lone, narrow, jet black. >> This was where the noble couple was sitting. >> Antique cushions golden trim. >> And over there there was the servant sitting. >> Alex had had about 12 years. >> Was already quite an old boat when they got it. >> Yeah, had a name. >> This is called Pegasus. >> Pegasus. >> Can you choose it? >> Yes, yes, of course.

“>> All right, so, if you want to come in, please, hold step. >> So we climb into the boat.”

>> Perfect. >> And Alex stands at the back, holding the ore, and we're down sitting in the lower seats, kind of just like pointing the microphone up. >> Alex, I know you were just telling us how annoying it is. And it was not pictures, so okay, if I take photographs of my ones in the line. >> No.

>> You came here to study it first? >> No, it's not about us it.

And it was pretty much immediately clear that it was not going to be an easy interview. >> You came in when you studied, I know I know what I was wondering. >> Right, right. >> You need to do a lot of taxes. >> Yeah, we had a notebook full of questions and things that we had pulled from all these articles we had read, not pretty quickly became useless. >> So what I was asking was, is you didn't come? >> And whenever I asked

about being the first female Gondalier, you know, the first woman in 900 years to do this. >> Oh, it's an old stall. >> What's that? >> You can't really read that everywhere on the net. I mean, so, you know, such an over and over and over and over and over and over, it's all set, right. Why would I need to repeat things to what it's already done? >> This is really frequent journalism problem. Like you become boring to the person you're interviewing, you start flailing. >> Exactly.

“And we were, we were like, you don't have anything wrong. Why are we here? What do you do?”

>> You know, we just thought maybe we should just be quiet, probably. We are about to make the night as dark. I haven't received in a 30-foot boat. >> We moved away from the tourist centers of the city and into these smaller canals. And as we go around these tight turns, Alex would sing out to let the other boats know that we were

because you cannot hear the gunner arriving. >> You know, we go under these beautiful artways.

“Passed hidden gardens. >> You don't necessarily need ice in order to appreciate a gondola tour.”

>> Every channel has a different song. >> Here are some gems, you have a little bird singing. >> Sometimes they fly in your face. >> So this is a beautiful entrance here to show you. >> At one point our gondola cuts through this rectangle of light, shining from an open kitchen door. It was nice. I mean, this side of Venice was unexpected and really beautiful, but the whole time we

were sitting on our no-pads and we were definitely quietly panicking.

>> Well, you know what I mean? >> Yeah, I didn't know this at the time, but >> I thought there's some, you know, I was like, well, there may be a little too young.

“>> I think Alex was testing us. >> It may be a little bit too, oh yeah.”

They don't have enough experience, maybe, that was my concern. But I like the enthusiasm, and I like the, uh, there was an honesty which I liked. >> Did you ever figure out what you were being saw stout for, or what was going on there? >> For sure not on the boat, but we, we actually made plans to go out to dinner that night. >> And considering how the boat ride went, we thought at this point we should return the square one

and leave the recorder at home and just try and have a conversation. >> Anyway, we sit down outside and very few people in the restaurant were the only table outside. They had to open. >> And when we got there too, we should say we met Alex's girlfriend, right? >> Yeah, and we're making, think we're just kind of making small talk. And yeah, it turns out, Alex's girlfriend is a photographer, and she'd done this photo essay of Alex.

And the photos are really striking. Like one of them, Alex is just like drowning under the water. There's one that's just like Alex's back as to the camera. >> This ripped and muscular back. >> Yeah, like arms played, like looking out the window over the city of Venice. >> Venice is loan defender. >> It's just like so badass and like kind of like superhero style. So we were chatting about the photos and asking Alex girlfriend, like, you know, tell me a little bit

more about what inspired you to take these photos. And you know, like small talk, friendly stuff. And she kind of was like, you know, it's just, it's so strange, you know, we thought, we thought it was so clear. We, like the photos were so like they emphasized every masculine quality on Alex's body. We, you know, in our artist statement, you know, we used all of the male forms in Italian, you know, like Louie, which means he instead of Le, which means she, but everybody at the photo exhibit

was like, oh, must have been a typo or you made a mistake. And she was like, which is funny because I'm Italian, so I should know. And I was like, oh, pronouns, Louie, he, Alex, she used he. He, Alex is a he is Alex trends, like, oh my gosh, Alex is a transgender man.

“Wow. What did you, what does that mean to you in that moment?”

What I thought that meant was Alex was probably born in a body that he didn't identify with. I mean, mine was, I didn't think transgender, I didn't think, I thought Alex is a guy. Of course, Alex is a guy. Really? Yeah, I wasn't surprised. No, I wasn't that surprised. I mean, I wasn't, I'm not saying that the, the pronoun is an actress. I mean, I would say that like flipping into he, not a thing. Like, like it was like Alex is, Alex is a he. Alex is he. He is sitting at the table with us.

Alex and his girlfriend very quickly. It was like him. I'm looking at him. And then I start thinking about the story that we had come here to tell that was about all of the women things that she had

done. Her, her, her, her woman hero heroine. First female in 900 years, international symbol of

female power. You start thinking about that. And it's like, those things are really hard to square in your head. This real person is also these stories and how did that happen. What has it been like for 20

which is not what you would expect at all. The fatal shooting of a teenager at a protest in Seattle

“has gone unsolved for six years. This is open in your face to how are there no answers.”

Our investigation has uncovered new evidence and witnesses who say they've never talked to police.

Did police ever call you? Not once. Listen to Weakey Bus Safe, a new true crime series on the Embedded Podcast from NPR. Hey, I'm Chad, I'm Ron. I'm Robert Crowwich. This is Radio Lab. And today we're telling the story of Alex. Hey, the first ever female gone dolier. Someone who seemingly broke through this 900 year old gender barrier and made headlines all over the world along the way, except turns out Alex is in a woman. And after who knows how many articles about Alex,

this is the first time that he's telling his story to the public. And so we should probably stop

for a second and talk about pronouns because this is really important for many transgender people. In moments when Alex was publicly understood as a woman and was getting international press for it, we've decided with Alex a permission to only use his name or his title of first female gone dolier. While some of the people interviewed for the story were unaware of the Alex's transgender and do use female pronouns or do refer to him as a woman. We, when we're talking about

him, we will only use male pronouns. So after that dinner, we made plans for the next day.

“On his motorboat, he would just take us to a quiet spot and we would talk. What's the agreement?”

On the water. On the water. Stop it, pasta, et la la. Okay, and how does that begin? A lot of false starts. So after getting some of the basics out of the way, Alex kind of started at the beginning. Well, you know, it's a long story. I was born to a transgender. This is in Germany. Alex tells us he was born with a female body but at a pretty early age, new himself to be a little boy. I knew already before I went to school with three years I was standing on the toilet to be inside.

Alex says that, you know, for him, he had the sense even when he was three that there should just be something on his body that wasn't there. Yeah, I don't know. I was praying for a penis every night. My parents knew about it. His parents were actually both doctors. They knew, but they, they were not supportive. You know, I heard them, you know, they were talking about all the weird stuff I did. How you'd rip the arms off of his barbees? Culling them like, you know, with a black pencil and

like destroying them and, or the way Alex dressed himself. When there was a swimming lesson in the school, I was there. I only was little pants or you call them a basood for four boys. And, you know, I was of course very aggressive as a child. A lot of fights. You know, I got quite, I was quite violent as a kid. So now I can laugh about this, but you know, it was a drama at home. It was a drama. The constant, uh, try of my mother to get this behavior out of me. Alex is pretty early on as

parents basically gave up on him. The ignored me as much as they could in which was, you know,

in a way it was saving me because I could wear whatever I wanted. I could do whatever I wanted. And then when Alex was 10, a little brother was born. And, uh, that was a shock. That was a terrible shock because, um, basically it confirmed that my mother wanted

“desperately, at boy, but she didn't accept me as her son. That's what it was.”

Alex said basically, you know, that was the first time he saw what, like, like, it should look like basically when a parent loves their kid.

huge, um, district called Pauly, where they have all the prostitutes and, you know, all the bad things. And that's exactly where I went. Some people kind of took him under their wing and got a job kind of figured out how to take care of himself. I got lucky, but I know also very unlucky stories,

“but I got lucky. Did he ever think about transitioning to a male body?”

He says he thought about it at one point, but in the 80s when I was 15, the opportunities you have had to become a man were very, very, um, poor. In particular, if you wanted to go down the road of surgery, what I can remember from my family was constant talks about how operations went wrong, how they went wrong and what went wrong. And so, for me to go in a hospital to do an operation, this is not going to happen. And of course, many transgender people don't end up having surgery.

But anyway, after Hamburg, at some point, Alex fell into filmmaking and ended up in San Francisco working in, in the film industry. And so, in 1886, he got involved in a production that sent him a broad to go scope out locations for a film that was going to be shot in Venice.

“So, shows up in Venice in 1886. How old is he around at this point? Well, 29, I think.”

Oh, so he's older. He's not a kid at this point. Originally, he's just supposed to say a few days. Kind of just enough time to do some research and scope things out. But somewhere along the way, he sees these guys growing their boats down the canal. And, uh, for reasons, he can't entirely explain who's just transfixed. I was fascinated by this kind of boat and I was fascinated by the rolling style that you roll forward. So, you actually see where you're going. So, I was just

fascinated and I just wanted to try it out myself. Eventually, um, Alex ends up actually meeting a gauntal ear and asks, like, do you think I could do this? And he actually ended up down at the gauntal station as an apprentice. Um, do they ask you? Do they ask you why you wanted to study? Uh, I remember the first day. I was introduced by the head boss of the group. Okay. So,

this is Alex. She's going to be all mascot because they saw Alex as a woman. And there are never

better woman gauntal ear. And most of them saw it for sure. This was like a kind of a joke. There was a very old man who later said, now we have a gauntal ear with tits. For the first several months, Alex has he basically just picked up after the guys. You were the bus boy for everybody. So, you needed to clean their boats and to ship out the water like 10, 20 times a day. He says it's really back-breaking, grueling work. For somebody that everybody, everybody sees as a woman,

you think this would be like the worst place on earth. But, you know, actually... Those first,

those first months in the city, just kind of with the boys, dirty jokes. I saw this is great.

Alex knew all the gauntal ear's nicknames, walked and talked and acted like them and cursed in the same way. And he says he felt like he was part of this tradition of, you know, learning from these old guys who work mentors to him. It was really like maybe the best time of my life. It was like his home. And then the trouble began. It started with the journalists. This is reporter Consuelo Turin. We met and the noisy cafe.

So, let's start it in 1996. With the translator. When Consuelo was a collaborator of the Nuava Venetia, she was a cub reporter in Venice, working for a very politically progressive newspaper. And she was

“out looking for her big story. And she runs into her, how do they encounter each other?”

Consuelo saw Alex at one of the gauntal ear stations. And she was like... Whoa, it's obviously, this is struck her attention. It looked to her like there was this woman growing among men. And like, seeming to kind of blend right in. Consuelo was attracted by this vision, unusual vision for Venice. So she observed her,

"Nisumpia tate di agilio." She said, "I camped out for like a whole morning and basically just

watched Alex's behavior." But... Alex didn't want to talk. I can't talk about it.

Consuelo said, "Listen, I recognize that you don't want to talk to me, that you're apprehensive, and that this might be difficult." And I get that this might even damage your reputation with the other gauntal ears. But... This is an important story. You're a pioneer. I can't ignore you. And so Consuelo said, "The two options. I'm going to write the story no matter what. So you can either talk to me,

“and we can do the story together or I can write what I think."”

That was the alpha. I can't go out now. And she said, "It will." And why wasn't Consuelo persuaded that she should wait? Well, they were journalists coming from all over the place. I think the story was going to get out there and somebody was going to write it.

And Alex never stopped and was like, "Listen, Consuelo, whoever,

let me just tell you the real story." The way out of this is to speak and yet he stays quiet. Right. Do you have a sense why? I mean, so just to kind of give like some like data points that might be helpful and understanding kind of where we were. So we're talking in 1887. Just to give you like a corollary thing, where we were in our discourse around LGBT issues, was like Ellen DeGeneres, I think that year. This is so hard, but I came out on her show.

“I think I've realized that I am, I can't even say the word. Why can't I say the word?”

And like shortly after it was canceled. Caitlyn Jenner was just a few years ago. Like we didn't even really have a grip on what transgender was. That wasn't a conversation that we were having in public. Can you imagine what it would be like to be like, "Guys, guys, guys, don't worry, though. I'm actually a man." That wouldn't have gone over so well with the dudes at the Gondola station. Yeah, yeah. So what ended up happening after Consuelo and Alex had the show down about the article?

Well, a couple of days later, Alex is on the way to the Gondola station. I found it in the newspaper shop. The headline. Hey, woman is challenging the Gondolaers. So I was like, "Oh my God, it's going to be hell." So it's in the newspaper stand. Alex shows up at the Gondolaers station. And of course,

“there's a big hello. A big unfriendly hello. Yeah, just like, "Oh, hello, Gondolaera."”

So it's boys that got really, really angry. They were like, "Well, we do everything to teach you well." And, you know, "No, you're challenging us." Alex has a lot of the Gondolaers stop talking to him. They wouldn't even let him wash their boats. And then, you know, of course, the ones who said, "Ah, I told you in the beginning of the bird." Told you she was just going to blabbed to the press. "Well, man, is that a good thing? I did it, did it, did it, did it on the whole thing?"

You know, "What's like a little spoon becoming a huge, huge sink?"

By the way, this is right. This is coming right before Alex is about to take the very first exam.

There's actually a series of exams. And it gets a little complicated, but eventually, anybody who wants to be a Gondolaer has to take this rowing test. And by all accounts, Alex was, "Good. Like we talked to the guy who is the head of the Gondolaer's Association at that time." Alex, "I." This guy, Fulvio Scarpo, was like, "Yeah, Alex, for me is more good the other man Gondolaers." And this is the head of the Gild? Yeah, and we also talked to this legendary

rower named Frank Ocrea. Alex is better than most of the guys. So anyway, Alex takes the test, and I feel the exam, which wouldn't have been, that by itself wouldn't have been such a big deal because a whole bunch of people failed the

first exam. But the thing was, there was a feeling that like something deeply unfair was happening.

According to Consuelo, a lot of people started to think, maybe the fix was in. Alex has suspiciously pretty much all the people that passed were sons of Gondolaers or from Gondolaer families. So then I got angry. I got a lawyer. Alex thought this was going to bring attention to how corrupt the license practices, how corrupt the association is. I wanted that the exam is repeated for everybody. And this lawyer was negotiating and the Gondolaer's

Association was like, "If we let everyone retake the test, that will basically be admitting that we favor certain families over other families." That was exactly what I wanted, but it's not

according to Alex where his story just gets hijacked. According to Alex, without telling him, the lawyer, together with the Gondolaer's Association, dug up this old law that says, "Because Alex is a woman." I mean, he's not, he's a man, but they thought he was a woman. And this law says that as a woman, he had the right to take the test again. This time with women judges

in the boat. When she came back and said, "Okay, here's what we're going to do." Do you remember

what you said? I was pissed. I was very upset that was not what I wanted. That's nothing to do with

“man or woman. Do you think she was your champion because she identified with you?”

Yeah, for sure. It was not my story. It's her story. But, unfortunately, for Alex, as soon as the lawyer did that, it became everyone's story. Oh yeah, because the press there ran with it. In the next two months, every paper in town was right in about it. I spend it by a Gondolaer's examination and an exam that I'm using the exam. That Gondolaer banned from foreign. Then, the story went global. Germat catches her crap in her feet to become thanks for

woman Gondolaer. Sexists sink first female Gondolaer. Good. Gondolaer fights a male tradition.

Feel the Gondolaer blames. Show them this. And then things escalate into a full-blown gender battle.

The Gondolaers are of course super pissed because of all this press that they're getting. We talked to a couple of key, like Gondolaer guys. I like Sandra. Hi. What? No.

“They have some thoughts and feelings about it. She had to press a test. She didn't.”

It's a disaster. Alex, is it one point? Things got so bad. That the small one of them was saying you know, I'm gonna wait for you in a small and street and with a knife and kill you. I'm gonna so I grabbed the guy and I said, "Where's your knife?" I'm here. Get it out, you know? Do it. That was one episode. There are many others. So on the one side Alex said he has Gondolaer's wanting to knife him on the other. There was terrible because then feminism kicked in and

Alex said he had all these women rushing into save him. Where do you want me to lie? Because they thought he was a sheep. We read in the paper that she had tried to take the test and had failed. And had called fouls saying that the Venetians were main and you know, sexist and wouldn't let women become Gondolaers. This is Jane Kapperel. She was active in the community of Venetian women rowers at the time. What women, by the way, like there aren't any? Well, so there weren't

any women Gondolaers at that time, but there's a whole community of female rowers. They have teams and they race. I've been doing Venetian wine for over 20 years. And being a female rower in Venice was very difficult. Elena, this woman rower I was talking to. That's the week I was with my rowing partners. It was like, I'm routinely when I'm out on the water, like old men yell at me and saying, "Hey, what are you doing? Return back home in the kitchen, cooking or cleaning your house.

Why are you here?" "Don't you know, you're just a contorno. You're just a side dish." They both told me when it comes to racing. There's a big discrepancy in the prize money. The men are getting like four times as much prize money as the women. We are now trying to convince the city of Venice who gives prices that we are like men. We are not less than them. We are all these women who have been, you know, incrementally busting their ass to try to be taken

seriously in the sport. We are here. We can do this. And when I saw this press about Alex fighting the Gondolaers, they reached out. I sent one of the other considerate as down to speak to her. You know, come to our club and come and work with us and help us out. Help us teach people. You've got your back. But she wasn't interested. No, of course not.

Because Alex, there are two problems. First of all, you cannot compare the Gondolaers

with the racing rows. There are two different styles of rowing. And second of all, the sense I got was that it was kind of like, I don't want to row with you. You guys all wear matching white skirts, like not my thing. So I remember there was a lot of resentment

“for a woman. How can you be one of us in this battle for the equality?”

Some people listen to me and then they are convinced that I'm a feminist, that I am one of them, and I'm not. And all of this comes to a head in October of 2004. When Alex has to retake the test, in this time with champion women rowers in the boat, judging them, there was a lot of pressure. Everything about this test is supposed to be a secret. The location of the test, the path that Alex is going to row, I've had no clue where we're going to go.

But suspiciously, as Alex stepped into the boat, he noticed that there was a huge crowd lined up all the way down the canal. Gondolaers and their friends, and they're shouting and yelling.

They cannot imagine the hate.

He had female rowers in the boat glaring at him. There's press lined up along the entire way.

“Plus, the truth is plus everybody. It was full of people. I felt like I'm in a ring.”

I tried to block it all out because I needed to do it next time. I wanted to do a good performance. And I wasn't able. It was one of the worst days of my entire life. I really don't, I don't wish that to nobody, that was real hell.

The fatal shooting of a teenager at a protest in Seattle has gone unsolved for six years. This is open in your face to how are there no answers.

Our investigation has uncovered new evidence and witnesses who say they've never talked to police.

Did police ever call you? Not once.

“Listen to Weakey Bus Safe, a new true crime series on the embedded podcast from NPR.”

Hey, I'm Jada Bumran. I'm Robert Crowwich. This is Radio Happen. We're turned out to a story from a Christian Clark and David Conrad about Alex Hay, transgender man who became somehow the first female gondoliera in nine hundred and twenty-three years and thus an international feminist hero sensation.

And so we now find Alex being painted by everybody in town in colors that he doesn't particularly agree with. Yeah, and what's interesting according to Kristen's just how easy it is to do that to someone. Okay, so I'll tell you, as we were doing the interviewing and the reporting, I'm like, I'm feeling like I have a good grip on Alex's story. I'm feeling like, "Oh man, I know what it feels like to be inside of a narrative that feels really

ikky." And so I feel like I'm kind of getting it and I'm like understanding the full Alex and like it's about all of these other things that have nothing to do with gender. So Alex's story isn't about gender at all. And for me that made sense because I was like in my life, gender has been a box. Like even even when you're in the right, even when you're in the right box,

gender is a box and it can feel shitty to be in that box. And so I was like yeah, let's bust open those boxes together. We're going to show, you know, we're going to show people who you are, Alex.

But then we would have these moments where I would be like, "Hmm, wait a second."

Like one night when we were in Venice, we were like trying to park our boat on the way to a restaurant and like this guy is like trying to parallel park his boat and Alex is kind of sitting there like chuckling at him. And you can hear like David chuckling in the background. And so the two of them were like, you know, joking about it. And then Alex says like he drives like a woman. Like an old lady.

And I was like, you know, and the kind of rolled my eyes at it. But then later at the dinner, he was like, he was like, you know, though, like, I don't really think that like a real woman could do this job. And you use like all like much about it. Yeah, I remember you were shocked that there was

“saying such a much of thing. I remember that. No, of course, you are very right.”

Woman can do everything. But this job, this is going to be very tough because this is a real cool community. And it's just very cool and rough. But when you said that, I got so I was like, I was so frustrated. And it was because I think I was attached to the idea of like it being equal, you know? I mean, I was, I was just like super confused. Like, I don't know. I just, I just want to know, is it? No, it's not telling me what you want to do. I don't know. I'll admit, in the moment,

I asked a kind of clumsy question. Do you feel, but it was because you seem to be almost like prodding me, you know, having fun and winking at David and do you feel like you're fundamentally on a different team from me? Okay. I am on David's team, but you can't see that because you identify with me.

When I'm in a group of women, for example, and they start to talk, I feel uncomfortable. The check things they have. I call it chicken check. It's not really my cup of tea. You know, I like it. It can amuse me. But the minute, they think that I am one of them, it doesn't amuse me anymore. And I feel uncomfortable. I don't, I'm a little alien there. Because they think I am one of them, and I'm not. When I'm with the boys, I feel comfortable. If it is a nice group of boys,

which I like, then we have the same type of humor and the same stupid jokes about women.

“For Alex, I think what was really striking is that whatever it is that makes him feel comfortable”

being seen as a man, but not as a woman, it runs very deep. For me, there is a difference between men and women. Not everybody, or even every transgender person, would feel this way. But the way that he sees it, if there were no differences, there would be no wish to do transition, and there would be no ton sexuality, and it's like that. If it would be the same, it wouldn't. Yeah. So you were seeing him as a gender doesn't matter, kind of icon, and he was saying actually it does matter.

Yeah. Can I just ask a simpler question? When, when does he actually become the first female

Gondolera? Well, so Alex couldn't get one of these 400 or so special Gondolera's licenses because he failed the test. But in 2005, I opened up my own business. He figured out that if he partners up with businesses in town like hotels, he can actually row for them privately. At the time, I was looking at all the laws, and I found that it was possible to open up my own business was out having a license, so I did. And so for years, he was just kind of doing this quietly.

Alexandra, she's a not a Gondolera. She's not a Gondolera. She works for a hotel. Some of the Gondolera's began to notice that Alex was rowing passengers without a license, and of course, they didn't like it. She didn't pass a test. Saying like, you can't do that. She's not part of our theme. Does not have a driver's license. You have to be a member of this

“organization. You have to have a specific license in order to practice. What do we can say?”

She's not a Gondolera driver. I got some threats, verbal threats, and damaging the Gondolera, and things like that. All kinds of stupid little boys should. So when they understood they cannot

threaten me this way, then they pressured City Hall to change the law. City Hall, basically,

said like you can't row, you can't row a Gondolera with tourists in it, without a license. And the law passed and was signed and it became the real law. Yeah. And so one day Alex is out on his boat and he just gets pulled over and basically he's told you're breaking this new law. And so I wanted to defend myself. So we went on trial in court. It was Alex. His one lawyer, City Hall and the Gondolera Association, there are four lawyers, four lawyers.

“I thought, you know, this is a lost case any already. But City Hall lost.”

City Hall fights back. Case goes to the highest court in the land. They're lost again. In front of a court with me a little stranger from out of nowhere. Now, technically the decision just said hotels can provide for their customers the way that they need do. So if they want to hire a chauffeur who happens to row in a Gondola, they can do that.

But what that actually meant was that now, for the first time, Alex could be considered a Gondolera.

That was a huge deal, massive. Along the canals, a woman powers against the time. Woman takes on Vinny's Gondolera Carthel. So this is where we get all of those articles we read before we came to Venice. The story went all over the world. And every single one, the message was the same. We have our first woman Gondolera.

Oh, Torna Teljellia, Nina. So that was something it was unstoppable. I could not go in there and excuse me.

Alex at this point in 2007 doesn't have any other income except for being able to market himself through hotels and eventually online. And so, of course, I need to have a website. People are actively seeking out this person who has broken the gender barrier and become the

first female Gondolera in Venice.

So it would have been stupid to try to go against all this. Was already written. So Alex decides to make his email, his Facebook page, and his website. All Prima Gondolera, or the first female Gondolera. I'm wondering if creating a website with that name, did that feel like you taking control of that

“narrative or was that narrative taking control of your decision on that website?”

It's nothing to do with what I've wanted. It's a label. I cannot change a label who has 20 years of history. Shut up! Alex told us he was talking to his therapist one day at this transgender center they have in your Venice. And she said, "You are like in the cage. This is like a cage for you. You can't get really out of this."

It's a difficult situation. It's a very difficult situation. But, um, I'm tired. By the time we met Alex, he'd been living almost 10 years like this.

“You know, just kind of between these two stories. At night, out to his close friends,”

but by day, giving these tours as the first female Gondolera in Venice. And every few months, every new tour season these headlines would just regenerate. First female Gondolera, first female Gondolera, first female Gondolera. And when we left Venice, that's kind of where we left him. Kind of hanging in the middle of that.

And the impression that we got is maybe that's just going to be how it always is for him.

With that? It's quite a while. We didn't see each other. So. Fast forward six months. We get an email from Alex. He says he's in San Francisco. Things have been happening in your life. Yeah, he had some news. Well, you know, I remember when we were sitting,

when we were last talking in Venice, and we were sitting on the terrace,

“I remember that I was already in, I knew there was something coming.”

But I wasn't sure what it was. It was very difficult here. I was kind of depressed, which, you know, I'm not, I'm not a depressed person, usually. And so I was hanging out. I was not moving much. I was hanging out on my sofa and I was trying to think. And I was more and more every day. I was unhappy about people telling me

that I was she and not that he. I don't know why I got completely intolerant. Before I was like, I don't care what they say to me. I care that they're nice. And now I was less like, I can't hear this anymore. It was so wrong. Alex was about to turn 50 at this point. And it turns out that part of what was happening was that he was beginning to go through

the early stages of menopause. I was hot, I was tired, sweat, breaking out for nothing. After fighting with the gondoleers, fighting with the feminists, this was like a final insult. So I have this idea that moments might help with how I feel. I start to take the testosterone that was on the 7th of November, which after six hours,

I get the first smile on my face in Nielia, yeah. I felt good. And the mood swings, they stopped

Yeah. So I'm like, I knew me because I was looking in the mirror every day and I was like,

Some people wait like two years or three years before they start to do a surgery.

“I wanted to do it now because for me, it was something like now or never.”

So now I'm here in San Francisco. I've had top surgery on the 24th. That's about, yeah, for days ago. And I wanted to start this year with the body which is confirming me.

People see me as the first woman and gondoleer and that means something for many people.

It's not fair to them, so, you know, I need to. I needed to say something. I changed on the Facebook side, I changed the name. No, it's Alexei Gondola Twos. And I did already a statement on my, on my old website that was a statement. It says, Dear guests, colleagues and friends, after holding myself back for three decades, it's time for me to depart from my wrong body. I am not changing who I am. I am becoming who I am.

And is he back in Venice now? Yeah. Yeah. And do any sense of what that's going to mean for

his job or his life? I have no idea. I have no clue. I don't know how my voice is going to be, in a month, it should drop. I have no idea how my face is going to look in my body. It's going to look in three years, three years, oh no, we all leave it as a surprise. Oh, y'all. Oh, y'all. Oh, y'all. No idea. That's Gary. Oh, y'all. Oh, y'all.

Thanks to report as Kristen Clarke and David Conrad also thanks to Alexis Unger and Summer and of course a huge thanks to Alex for sharing a very difficult story with us. Are you worried about what the responses might be to it? Oh my god, David, I'm a warrior.

“You think this is boring me? I've been to a war as I guess. I remember like when we were sitting”

out on the balcony, you had said something like I don't want to do another battle. Exactly. But I don't want to do another battle, but if I have to I will. Because I hope that it can at least help one person out there. Hey, there's Sorn here again. So we released that episode in 2017. Now, of course, it's 2026 and when we last heard heard from Alex, we left him really in the middle of a moment of change. And in the years since, we didn't hear much from him, but I have found

myself thinking about him all the time. And I know other people on the staff have, too. And then we heard that he'd written a book, which is actually being released here in the U.S.

Today, the day this episode comes out, which is June 26. And we're going to get to that in a second.

But we didn't really know anything about how his transition went for him, both professionally and personally. So I decided best thing I should do is just get a hold of him. Yes. Nine years has been. I don't know where to begin, but maybe. Exactly. That's the problem because it's nine years and a lot of things happened. Turns out Alex has been through this sort of

“honestly mythic journey starting where we left off in 2017, just as he's getting back to Venice”

after his time in San Francisco. He's starting a physical transformation, but it was at the very beginning and we weren't sure how that would affect his business. No business was really wonderful

fun at work. I think I read that you were having like celebrity people wanting to come ride your boat. Yes. Well, I've had that before, but then, you know, also because I felt so comfortable

finally in my body, not too honest. To me, how that is pushing you forward in a very happy spot.

And so I was in a very good place. And it was was the body matching comfort level like was that immediate or did it take time? Well, takes time. That's why you have this period, which is called puberty, where you basically have a second one that is demanding, you know, obviously when you have a certain age, you do not want to get silly anymore and do silly stuff and think silly things, but that is exactly what happens because you need to basically reconsider everything once more.

From the colors you like, from the food you like, from your sexuality, you know, everything.

That's kind of amazing. Yeah, it's just a pretty amazing period of time. What's happening at

the same time to your relationships? How is it affecting the way you were relating to other people?

“I remember one going to be passing by and saying, hey, Alex, you need to cure this cold you have.”

I mean, you have this four weeks now. You need to cure the cold. Because of the voice. Because of the voice. I was cracking up because that was very funny. I mean, do you most people know what you're doing or nobody even knows? Well, nobody really knew because I didn't tell anybody, you know, I was just letting people guess. But then, you know,

obviously once somebody understood it, the whole city, you know, was like a wildfire. And so then

I got, you know, funny questions. Very, how you call it questions. You don't want to hear it. And you don't want to answer to it. But as I was the only out transgender at the time, obviously, you know, people asked me all kinds of questions about it. Is it an awkward, but friendly curiosity or sort of like a, no, it's just perfect. Okay. Yes. Unfortunately, most of the time, obviously there were also some nice questions and two interests.

But that was maybe a 5% of it. The rest was being very interested in a very preferred way. If I'm myself thinking back and being very interested in your relationship to the other going to the layers, like before everything went bad with the test and the women, rosers, the lawsuits, that group of men, you described it as a very happy community, a happy home, a happy place, and was obviously felt like something that got taken from you. But I don't know if

there were parts of it that you kept. That question now becomes a little bit complicated. I was

“very surprised. That's what work and how does it work and is it longer than what I have and so on”

and so forth. So, you know, that was quite interested. Yeah. The business is okay. People are being perverts. Well, the business is so wonderful. The business couldn't have been better, really couldn't. So I was really on my way up to the very top and then I got stopped by the police in the 18th of October in 2019 and I thought it was like a normal procedure of controlling something or whatnot. But then I understood that they want to confiscate the gondola. But they didn't

told me why. So that's what happened. My gondola got taken away for me and that for me was like if you are a musician, you do not take the instrument away. But it was not only the instrument they were taking away. They were taking away the music as well and the right to play on another instrument. It was like there was nothing or the sudden zero. This was Pegasus. That was Pegasus, yes.

“He is now property of the state of Italy since 2019. And but like why why did this happen?”

I didn't know at the time what was happening and why it was happening. We weren't able to confirm what exactly went down with Alex's boat. But according to Alex, I found out years later, years later I found out that there was no reason whatsoever to do this except for transphobia. Just discrimination and hate. Exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, I needed to leave because the situation became harsh,

of the Gondola. The association failed very great. Like, you know, they were proud. Yes.

“In boldened. Yes, exactly. It was becoming an unbelievable situation because everywhere I was”

going by foot or by motorboat, I got screamed at and pointed on and my friends were getting concerned that this may be gonna escalate into physical violence. I mean, as we know from so many examples, it's a very real threat. Right. I wasn't really afraid of them being physical violent because they are such cowards. However, it was for me unbearable to be in Venice and not be capable of working. And so, you know, this was like just a losing game for me. So, I decided to leave

Venice. So, I cancelled my apartment, my bank accounts, everything. I cancelled everything and I sold everything and I went to Switzerland for a while and then COVID kicked in. No, my God.

“And basically, I was drifting being without a proper home for six years. I didn't want to”

return to Germany that was for me like to go backwards, which I hate to do. But somehow, there was no other option at the certain point because I spent all the savings I've had in those five years or four years and then I needed to go back into my country where I was born and where I have the passport from and asked the government for support. And that was not an easy thing to do. That was another very shameful idea and I've done that only and exclusively after there was no

other possibility or solution. But I couldn't find housing and I couldn't find a job. It was like

I was stuck in the mud for six years. I will always be a boundary air in the sense of

you're once a boundary air, you're always a boundary air because it is not a job but it is a hand craft and it's so few people in the world who are doing that. It's something so unique. You cannot just leave that away. All of this needs to be cancelled and forgotten. That was very difficult to let go. That was the most difficult thing and the second most difficult thing was Berlin because I did not like Berlin and from Venice which is very tiny to come into a big city which is quite

ugly on the first sight at least. That was very difficult to swallow for me and so I got the

press and didn't leave the house for quite a while and then you know I needed to wake up from that. But it was incredibly difficult because I really was in such a black hall and I couldn't find my way out. I didn't saw and light. I didn't ask for help and that was the most cruel thing I've ever done to myself. You know what I mean? In the end it was not the enemy. It was my sir. I destroyed myself. By not fighting back. Yeah, I've felt I was tired. I was tired. Obviously you ask yourself

what did I do wrong? Did I do anything which provoked the somehow? You think there is a partially a fault somewhere. You did something wrong somewhere. As far as this wouldn't have happened. You cannot imagine that people are so evil that they destroy your existence only because they hate you. I mean that it's hard to believe and so I was searching my own fault in all this. What let you or help you or push you to climb out? Good question. If you remember the last time

we talked I said that I am a warrior and then whatever happens I'm gonna fight back and so you know

“there was this little tiny little very low voice knocking and saying hey you need to get the hell”

out of the situation you are hurting yourself. Get your stuff together and find a way to snap out of

there and I did. What was your first move to start writing to start leaving the apartment to start?

I needed to start moving my body somehow just a little bit you know a shoulder foot or just to stand up and to sit down again. I was so tired and then when I got better my health really

ah hello I'm here too and collapsed. Very difficult situation which I do not wish to nobody

“because to snap out of this kind of depression and misfortune is nearly impossible. But at some”

point you do start creating like writing as humor maybe thinking about film again. Yeah you know when I lost my existence the first thing I was doing I knew I needed to stay in motion. So I made a small film which was quite successful for what it was but it didn't work out the way I wanted it to work out because of COVID. It was ignored in Germany but it's shown now next weekend in Hamburg at the short film festival really. For the very first time so it has still a premiere status

and they are like four years late but you know who cares so that's gonna be a funny because I studied

visual communication in Hamburg and it's shown in the cinema I always dream that I wanted to show

“a movie there. I just got goosebumps. That is one of those magic crazy things which happened.”

That's a nice return. Yes. What's the name of the film? Vini Etienne that's a Venetian saying it means I shall come again and so I was doing that little film and I was writing the book in the COVID time. I felt time. So I was writing this thing on my iPad was two fingers because you know I'm not going to hear. I'm not a IT engineer or an author or what not. So I was writing this was two fingers on my iPad and all this was not going anywhere. There was nothing coming

out of what I was doing and I couldn't find a proper job when I came to Berlin for me my life was over and it was very interesting because Berlin was from day one very very kind to me. I've got support from people I didn't know and I've got some job proposals and you know things were moving in a better direction but I was not ready for it. I was like you know I just want to die because I didn't want to go back to Germany. It took me years to understand that Berlin

is how can I say it's softer than you think it is. There's a lot of love here, there's a lot of community here and there are so many different worlds here. Are you now happy in Berlin? Now I am happy in Berlin and that this kind of new in the sense I'm like I'm driving around you know in Berlin and I'm like hello there's not too bad or you know where I before I was like oh my god this is unbearable it's so ugly and now I'm like oh it's not so bad come on they are beautiful places here don't get

me wrong they're beautiful parts and sections here but obviously after Venice everything is ugly yeah do you still want to go back? I knew that question would come

“yes I would I would two to row no no I I think I'm physically not capable anymore to do that”

because I was really really sick and it is quite a wonder that I'm still alive however Venice is so much more for me than they're going to be hearing it's my hometown this is where I belong yeah I understand that however Berlin was so kind even when I was rejecting Berlin Berlin was not giving up on me and I I have a big thank you in my heart for Berlin because Berlin really saved me and then the book when does the book come the book it's coming out in New York

on the 26th of June I feel it feels good it makes me happy to hear this arc of life for you

I can only tell people never give up I really hope that the world is going to come together

and that the change is coming and that we move away from this hate because hate is absurd and so stupid and so unnecessary there's space for everybody and I don't understand why this intolerance needs to happen and I do not need to tell you that the transgender community is affected harshly and deeply and extremely by it I'm sure that hope I just wonder why I need to

because I became who I am and I paid an extremely high price for it I nearly lost myself in it

“and I think that is something which I hope will not ever have me again to somebody else in my position”

one final note just a few days before we put this episode up Alex was traveling to New York City

to have a release party for his book and he told me that he was pulled aside by border control

interrogated and actually detained for a while in New Jersey and he had to go back to Berlin

“where he is again now big big thanks to Alex for giving us his time once again for being”

so open and honest and direct is always a pleasure talking to him you can order Alex's book

on the Pegasus Publisher's website is called The Gondoleer by Alex High that's H.A.I. definitely go check it out one last note if you're transgender and living in the US and you're

“struggling or you need community or support or resources always remember that you can call the”

trans lifeline at 877-565-8860 I'm Storm Wheeler this is Ray Lab thanks for listening hi I'm Gabby I'm from the Bay Area California and here are the staff credits ready Lab is hosted by Lulu Miller and Lettiff Nasser soren Wheeler is our executive editor Sarah Sandback is our executive director our managing editor is Pat Walters Dylan Keith is our director of sound design our staff includes Jeremy Bloom

W Harry Fortuna David Gabel Maria Paz Gutierrez Sindu Nena Sambundan Matt Kielty Mona Maudgalker Alex Niesin Sarah Carrey Natalia Ramirez Rebecca Rand Joanna Strogetz Anisa Vizza Aryan Wack Molly Webster and Jessica Young with help from Gabby Santis and Maya Applebee Milamid our fact checkers are Diane Kelly Emily Krieger Natalie Middleton Angelie Mercado and Sophie Semai Hi I'm Daniel from Madrid leadership support from Razolat Science Programming is provided by

the Simon Foundation and the John Turbulent Foundation foundation of support from ready Lab was provided by the Alfred P. Islam Foundation