The Shoe Thrower

So you wait, you're listening?

“This is Radio Lab, I'm Latif Dosser, and today we have a story from our reporter Sara Cari.”

Okay, so a couple of months ago, I got in the studio to do this interview that I'd been trying to make happen for close to a year. Hi, Sara. Can you hear me? Yes. I'd been trying to connect with this Iraqi guy in Baghdad. Hold on.

I can't hear it. Things were not really going to plan, so we are waiting. It turns out my interview was taking his time having a little tea after his lunch, and then after about 45 minutes, he shows up. Yeah, I'll end. I'll end on the other. Okay, for Highlight.

Oh, Sara, did you speak Arabic? You don't speak Arabic? Only a little bit. We fumble through, mostly me, doing the fumbling. Sure, sure.

With the help of... Sara O' Mace, your Iraqi journalist, Mace Al-Bayat. Yes, she is. I don't know, but then... We have one hour, right, Sara?

So I was hoping to talk to you for longer, because I want to get lots of details about your life and tell your story and I don't want to miss any details. Okay, I hope you have another question or a new question. Yeah, every new question. It's pretty clear that he was sick of talking about the one thing that I really wanted to ask him about. If you're feeling frustrated, just tell him.

Don't worry, I will tell you. Which is why? Well, okay, so maybe let's just start with... Introduce yourself and tell me why you're famous. Anna, it's me, Munta Thara Zaydi.

My name is Munta Thara Zaydi. Well, Anna, I'm... Ah, permit Zoj Ahliti. Anna, Jordi Tebeliyobosh. And I threw my shoes at George W. Bush.

Oh, yeah. Do you remember him?

“Yeah, I remember that guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.”

Okay, well, just in case, pretty one who doesn't remember, let me just do a quick refresher. Okay, yeah. It's December 14, 2008. More than five years into the war in Iraq. And George W. Bush makes a surprise visit to Baghdad, where he's giving a press conference.

Thank you for your kind invitation. Next to him is Norial Ameliki, the Prime Minister of Iraq. And I'm looking forward to some food. Now officially, Bush is there to sign an agreement, shake some hands. Leaving the next present with a stable foundation for the future.

As he's on his way out at the end of a second term.

But he's also clearly trying to make this point. War is not open. That in his eyes. But with the conclusion of these agreements, it is decisively, on his way to being one.

The war has been a success. Hmm. At the end, he says, "Thank you." In Arabic. And he's looking at his ear.

“So you see this guy just sort of pops out of the crowd”

and I'm nowhere and throws a shoe and George Bush dodges it. And then he throws a second one, and Maliki tries to swipe that one out of the way. Yeah. And then it was just chaos. And he's tackled to the ground.

They're dragging him out. And then the other left. It's so quick. I know, it's so quick. And it blows up, I mean.

It's so ordinary things. To play.

You know, it's basically top of the news across the globe.

George, double a bushpad. Muntazar Al-Jadina Pekat had you. And the clip. And the clip. And the shoe, the shoe, the shoe.

It's all over the internet. Paul at the shoe heard around the world. He's really as viral as something can be in 2008. Yeah. But even today, I feel like with most people, if you're like,

"Hey, that shoe throw a guy." They're like, "Oh." Yeah. I remember it feeling silly. Right.

I mean, definitely there were some, like, how dare he kind of reactions, but generally. Oh. Oh. Here in the U.S.

It's slightly painful. He was as much like late night show fodder as it was news. Shoot me once. She's on you. And for so many people.

She would be twice. Their main reaction was like-- Pretty quick. Move in pretty quick. George W. Bush was weirdly agile there.

Like props to him. He was quick on his feet. I remember that. And he did a little side-to-side.

Looks like we finally found something.

President Bush is good at dodgeball. And you know, for me, when this happened,

I was growing up in a very Muslim immigrant community, going to Islamic school. In this post-9/11 war on terror era, very aware of how so many people had died in Iraq. Right.

And like a lot of people, I had a very intuitive understanding of the anger and frustration that this guy was expressing. But at the same time, I'll admit. I just sort of thought he was like a random crazy guy.

“You know, I think there was that much to it.”

Yeah. Yeah. It feels like a rash move made in anger. But fast forward to today with everything that is happening in the world right now.

And things that the US is contributing to in Gaza, in Lebanon,

and now in Iran, it feels like we're in another never-ending sort of out-of-control war.

Very unpopular war. Very unpopular right. I just find myself flashing back to that era. Yeah. And specifically to that guy.

And so, a while back, I just looked him up. And the first thing I learned was that he was a journalist, like an Iraqi journalist. Oh, I didn't know that. Same.

And suddenly, I was like, oh, okay, like this act of throwing a shoe. I mean, it's not what anybody is supposed to do. But it's especially not what journalists are supposed to do. Right. Right.

You know, like even for us, like we're not supposed to protest or advocate or even express opinions or emotions that could be seen as political.

It's like literally in our job description here.

Right. Exactly. And the reason is we want people to trust what we say, the coverage we do, that we're not spinning it in one way or another. We don't have a thumb on the scale.

Right. No, totally. So I guess to see him not just like express his opinion, but to actually throw something at the president. Yeah.

I just kept thinking like, what exactly got him to that point. You know, what happened there? And what does he think of that moment now? I can smoking some cigars.

“I think so as long as you stay close to the mic.”

My smoke without two voice. Okay. Okay. And once we sort of got warmed up, actually it's one interview turned into several.

Like we ended up talking for it. I think something like eight hours. Wow. And there was so much about month other what happened that I had. And I think most people have no clue about.

And also this act at the center of it. This act of throwing the shoe. The more I learned about it, the more it became really layered and fascinating. And weirdly kind of perfect.

Okay. Just to back up a little here, when did you decide to become a journalist? And why did you want to become a journalist? Yeah.

I don't know what to do.

“I'm not sure if I can become a journalist.”

He grew up with big imagination. Monthly there says that growing up as a kid in Iraq. His mom would read to him every night before bed. Which was very inspiring to him. And he fell in love with stories and books.

He used to visit any neighbors or any family members who have a library and he would just read. He could talk. All of the books that he can lay his hands on. And in particular, as he got older. And Saddam Hussein was at the height of his dictatorship.

He started to read. The work of journalist. And political poets. Who wrote about the plight of ordinary people under repression. Then in 1990 Saddam Hussein invades Kuwait.

And in reaction to the U.S. and its allies. Together with many other nations, high-ordered and embargo. Play sanctions on Iraq. The stakes are high.

Iraq is already a rich and powerful country.

And of course, the impact of that. It's mostly felt by the people of Iraq. It was like a cancer. I think your bones eating yourself. By some estimates.

Over half a million children died. Oh, my father was just 14 years old at the time. He had three brothers and three sisters and his mother. He started lining up at construction sites just looking for any job that he could get. He would work from the morning till the evening.

And all of the income he will get out of it is literally to buy two bags of bread. Who was? And then? I fellow citizens. 9/11 happens.

At this hour. Torsally bush. American and coalition forces are in the early stages of military operations.

wasn't true. Right. Decides to invade Iraq. A disarm Iraq. To free its people.

“And to defend the world from grave danger.”

One thought, "Can you tell me about some of your memories of when the invasion started?" And how old were you when that happened? Hmm. Gun. I'm going to talk to him.

He was a 24-year-old. He was a 24-year-old.

The first memory of the invasion for him.

It was when he was in a bus. And he saw a convoy. Of the American soldiers in Hong Kong. And one of the American soldiers. He got out of his Hong Kong.

In the middle of the traffic. And he actually pissed on a car. And his colleagues were laughing. Hmm. He told me that in that moment, he could feel.

Chart. Be Hajj Milkarte. Al-Kadime Elena. As he put it, the disaster that was coming their way. They didn't come to liberate them.

They came to piss on people.

“And this feeling started to come over him.”

Sar Andi. Manfilaal. Al-Kalemi. He has the duty to write about what's happening. Like, I want to become a journalist.

Hmm. Because he felt that journalists actually have this very real power. Yeah. He has the right to write about it. He has the right to write about it.

He has the right to write about it. He has the right to write about it. He said this thing to me.

Very long in the lines of that saying that journalists write the first draft of history.

Yeah. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

“They are the people that set the record on things.”

Eventually, he ends up at a TV station called Al-Baghdadiya. And he starts reporting on all the ways that the invasion is unleashing as he put it. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

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They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

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They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things.

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They are the people that set the record on things. They are the people that set the record on things. The way he was writing the story itself, it was very emotional. The final image was like a group photo of Sahara with her friends. So he said, this is the picture of Sahara.

to build democracy? Everyone was crying.

“Now one note I want to make here is that while I have been able to independently confirm”

many of the broad strokes of Sahara story, I actually haven't been able to track down

with others' own report on her. The book that the archives are really hard to track down, all these years later, which means that for a few of the specific details that you just heard, we only have monthuthers account to go off of. However, from all of my sources familiar with this time period in Iraq,

stories like Sahara were far from the exceptional case. Because what we know today, what is now well documented about the Iraq war, is that the United States military caused widespread harm to civilians. There were rampant abuses of power, like U.S. forces doing arbitrary raids, stealing, arresting civilians on mass, committing torture, and sexual violence,

and indiscriminate killing. The estimates of senseless civilian deaths go into the hundreds of thousands.

But to this day, we don't actually know the full extent of the civilian loss of life.

“To go back to another, what we do know is that a couple of days after the Sahara story came out.”

He was in the street and stopped by him and said, "Get in our car or it's going to get nasty." So he actually got kidnapped. They put him in a small room. They wanted monthuthers to be quiet and not speak again. Like no more publishing stories like the one about Sahara.

He believed it probably was someone from the Iraqi government who was connected at that time with the Americans. And I should point out that now it's also well documented that the U.S. forces were actively shutting down news reports and reporters who were trying to get these kinds of stories out into the world. A couple months later, American soldiers actually took him into custody. They raided his home and they detained him.

Why? No.

The shameful part of it was they took him in his pajamas.

It was in the pajamas as well.

“In your mind was the arrest also connected to your reporting?”

I don't know. I don't know why. But as this was happening to him, the way he was seeing the Iraq war covered in the news around the world. He felt so upside down, like even before the invasion started.

George W. Bush, he said, "The Iraqis are going to welcome the American soldiers with roses and everybody will be happy." Full disclosure, I haven't been able to find evidence of this exact moment. It's actually possible that it wasn't Bush, but it was some other administration official. I mean Dick Cheney said something like they're going to welcome us as liberators, you know?

Yeah, yeah. So that rhetoric was definitely really prevalent at the time. And weirdly enough, this specific image of Iraqi's greeting Americans with flowers or roses is a thing that a lot of people I've talked to actually do remember hearing.

Yeah. It was heavily marketed by the American media, but also the Western media. What does that mean? You feel? I had to cool what I mean.

When month of our heard it, he said, "You really wanted to kind of say this is not happening. People are not welcoming the American soldiers with roses." I mean, I can imagine how galling would be. It's your job to tell the story of your country of what's actually happening

and not only is no one listening, like insult to injury. The story that is being told is dead wrong. Exactly. Exactly. And with all of these things piling up, it wasn't long before he hit a breaking point.

Mm-hmm. If you're close to Thania, you learn candidacy Median to slow down. It happened one day when he was reporting on the bombing of a house. I just thought Rabat, she had her back then. And Apache worked there and tried the house.

And as he was looking into the rubble, he saw... A rigid kebir da kribe. Then elderly man. I was in the station. Wearing the Iraqi discharge of the white row.

In the middle of the wires and the concrete. All of his intestines went out. Ah. They get AD or Argil at Falt Island. And they had to look out.

Trapped under the collapsed roof.

Mm-hmm.

“And after he submitted the footage to the TV station.”

In Harit. And he had the breakdown. The layout up. And he couldn't stop crying. He was so broken at that time.

The thing that hit him was that despite the fact that he was reporting all of these stories. He could feel that no one was listening. No one can. No one can. No one can.

Maybe people would read about it within Iraq. Maybe Maximum would go in the Arab world. Yeah. Yeah. But the outside world, like Europe and America.

These stories were not reaching.

People's pain is not being heard. I really wanted all of this world to hear. And understand the pain that people are going through. So finally, one day. I thought they were not going to play with my mom.

I was in the tech shower. Nice. And I talked to myself. Like, what do I do? I need to do something.

Yes. And that is when the idea pops into his head. Ah, the idea is, say, you're gonna build head up. I should throw a shoe at church will be Bush. Yes.

And I'm here. He had it. Okay. That's a great idea. Okay.

Coolium of a Kirby here. And I kept thinking about it every single day. Coolium. And every day. When I was going to work.

Coolium. I see him on TV. I say, I swear. As soon as I see you, I'm going to throw my shoe at you. I'm going to throw my shoe at you.

I'm going to throw my shoe at you. I'm going to throw my shoe at you. I'm going to throw my shoe at you. I'm going to throw my shoe at you. I don't think, I don't think I fully understand.

“Like, how did you even get the idea to throw a shoe?”

Like, I understand you were angry and you were, you know, all this was building up over a long period of time. But where does the idea to throw a shoe come from? My mind. My, my, even.

I mean, she'll play me. That loosely translates to mischief, by the way. No, but there's so many ways to do something, right? Like, you could have screamed at him. You could have waived a flag.

You could have asked him a really pointed question. You could have demanded that he apologize. Well, why shoe? Exactly. That's, that's good point. Elisaba Boa had gotten a talent to the Shibla Arabi.

I want to speak Arabic to explain my idea. Exactly. Sure. Elisaba Boa is a key reason. The ultimate gift that you can give in the Arab culture.

The whole world is roses. So it's a huge thing. And that is why, one of her, he said, "I wanted to do something completely." The opposite of roses. The opposite of that is actually what people wear in their feet,

which is the shoe. And you know, this is a thing in Muslim culture. But probably a lot of cultures around the world. You know, shoes are unclean. And bring them into the house, especially in Arab cultures.

It's an insult to show someone the bottom of your shoes.

“It's like here's what I think of you. You're exactly.”

You know? For our culture, it's by far the most degrading things to do to somebody. For example, our mothers then use the slippers on our children. In our culture, and maybe in your culture as well. Definitely.

Of a shallow up in. Of a shallow up in. So that is where it came from. And month ago, our mother also told me, you know, "Look, during the occupation." There were two types of resistance in Iraq.

One which was the armed resistance. Like militias that had cropped up fighting the American troops. And then on the other hand, you had the intellectual resistance. And I felt that I want to be part of the intellectual resistance. And hence why I decided to throw the shoe.

I mean, during a shoe is not intellectual resistance. Like did you realize you were crossing a line beyond just intellectual resistance into something else? You cannot put yourself in my shoe. To know what happened in my mind in this moment.

And I'm actually stunned by your reaction. Really?

I just told you that half a million children have been killed.

Many people have suffered for years and years.

It's okay, it's kind of like...

No, it's not that. It's not that. Let me just translate for you. It's not that I don't think.

“I just want to say, "It's not that. It's not that I don't think."”

I'm not obliged to kind of get a reaction. According to your Western standard. And he's paying... Let me just please let me finish because it's actually... He's like a lot.

He said, "Yes, I am a journalist." And I couldn't figure out who I am, but I swear. I've been documenting a lot.

Whether it's video, audio, written pieces, no one has listened, no one has done.

Anything, no one was prosecuted. The Americans did not even get my stories. I wanted people to once stop and pause and ask, "Who is the hara?" What happened to Iraqis? Who are the people who were suffering?

By this action, which was very intentional action... I made the word "ask the question." Why this shoe was thrown? Hence why it's been almost 18 years. And he's still doing all of these interviews

to tell the world why he threw a shoe. If anyone doing just a question that could embarrass the American president, this is not going to be enough. Because that question would be washed away. No, I totally understand.

And with other... The reason I'm asking so many questions about this is because

“this is why I wanted to talk to you, honestly.”

Like, the reason I thought of you... One night, almost two years ago, I was reading the news about Leza, and I was feeling so angry. And I was like, "In bed, I was trying to go to sleep."

Okay. And I was just so so angry. And I'm a journalist. I was like... And I don't know if you had this, but here in the US,

there's a lot of pressure on journalists. Like, "Oh, stay neutral. Just say the facts. Don't say how you actually feel. Don't say anything political, because then people will think that you're biased.

I was feeling like... I was feeling like being a journalist was having handcuffs on. Like, "I can't say that this is something horrible that's happening." And I swear to God, "I don't know why, but in this moment, I thought of you.

I thought of what you did." And that's why I want to understand where that idea came from. There's so many different options you had, and you picked one specific option, right?

Which is, I'm going to throw a shoe. And some moments, I actually thought, "Maybe I should be like an armed resistance." For example, one time I was called by someone who told me that American soldiers raided the house,

and then they raped his wife and his sisters. So I went there, and I talked to the women, who were weeping, and they covered their faces because of the shame. The tears were wetting their veil.

I was very angry. And actually, as soon as I walked out from the house, I saw a Humvee, and Americans were standing just outside that Humvee, smoking and laughing and joking. That's true story.

“And I thought, "Oh, honestly, if I could have a weapon,”

I probably would have killed them." Why did you decide not to do that? "Lan, jereme li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li li". It is for me, these crimes that I've seen and I've covered, it's not enough to prosecute one soldier,

or like kill one soldier, or all couple of them. At the end of the day, those are just people who are following the command.

The most important thing is to go to the head of the snake,

the person who's giving the orders, and who actually allowed and enabled this disaster to happen. When you were thinking about what to do to George W. Bush, did you think of any other options? Did you think of throwing anything worse than a shoe?

he will become a hero.

He will be celebrated as a victim and as a martyr.

It's so interesting because it's like, you had to find the perfect sweet spot between the two options. One is the completely nonviolent option, which is like keep reporting or something. Ask a really tough question or something.

And then the other side is like do something that's actually violent. And this is like somewhere in the middle, and I find that very interesting. It's not quite violent, although maybe, I don't know, maybe it's more on the violent side,

but it's somewhere in between the two options. Sure thing, Sahe, Arokum and Namethalan Barresconi.

“It's interesting, do you say about that fine line between?”

Violent and nonviolent. So for example, Bosconi... Sylvia Barresconi is Italy and Prime Minister in 2009. Someone is a vase.

A vase at him is actually a small statue, but anyway.

Oh, this is after you. 2009. December, maybe. Yeah. Ok.

And he ended up bleeding. Oh. Do you see this structure? I can't see it too clearly. Can you describe it?

Ok, wait a minute. Le Barresconi, who you are in in Varba. It's of the Italian Prime Minister and his face is full of blood. Barresconi, did they say you? Despite him being a corrupt Prime Minister,

people were sympathising by him because he bled.

I'm not out of no and mama.

Even I was sympathising with the fact that as an old man, he was bleeding. I can't believe it. To me, it's hard to... It's kind of hard to swallow.

Ok, so tell me. What happens next in the story? It sounds like you have this idea in like 2005. I think.

“Which is like three years before you actually do it, right?”

Yes. What happens in the meantime? Hmm. No. Ok, now I'll tell you how to use your vocabulary.

I keep chasing, but in multiple occasions. Oh, really? And I tried to attend his press conference multiple times. And I did not succeed. I even won time.

I wanted to go to a firm shape in order to attend the press conference in Egypt in Egypt. Yes. And it didn't happen. And so I kept pursuing him. And pursuing George W. Bush, like, how did you do that?

How did you figure out where he was going to be and try to track him down? You know, I am a journalist. So every single time, I know there's a press conference. I tried to follow it. And interesting, you know.

I don't know what to do. I don't know. That incident. That when I threw the shoe at him, I didn't even know he was going to be there. No way.

Yes. Wait. Ok, so. That's interest to story. Once I was told me that in December of 2008, one day he's at work in the book that the end is room.

It's the end of the day. Time for him to get up to go home. Great class. Class. That's enough.

By six o'clock, one of his colleagues turns to him and says, We need someone like one correspondent and two cameraman to go to cover a press conference. Like, can you go cover this? Because George W. Bush is going to be there. What do you think? What's your reaction?

I'm shocked. I'm free. He asked his colleague to repeat himself. Like, are you sure? And then he turns to this other reporter.

“And I said, you need to go with the two cameraman.”

Like, you didn't want to go initially, my mother? No. No, no. Really? Yeah. In fact, my mother told me the next thing that he did was...

He got in his car and he went home. Huh? Now, of course, we all know how the day is going to end. But the dramatic story of how it all actually goes down is coming after the break. This episode is supported by Better Help.

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You know, I know somewhere. He's got a little support, but seriously, if a friend or loved one comes to you, seeming a little more overwhelmed or blue or scared than usual. Why not encourage them to seek help? Praise them for doing it.

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Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade. Tussling over politics and policy, when she worked in the White House, and I reported on it. And now we're friends and colleagues, and don't our podcasts. Clock it. We are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

Clock it is where we talk about what we see in here in the news, so you can start to clock it too. Clock it with Simone and Eugene. All episodes are available now. Hey, I'm Latif. This is Radio Lab, and we are back with Sara Curry.

Yeah. So when we left off, month-other had just found out that George Bush was going to be at a press conference in Baghdad.

And instead of volunteering to go cover it, he high-tailed it back home.

Oh, Raqadat Ilab, it meant Zidi. But that it had I. And I run home, because I was wearing... a brand-new shoes. I bought it from Beirut, Lebanon.

You didn't want to throw it. I want to get the dirtiest and the ugliest one.

“Tanian had a carrot mule, how couldn't I be happy, man?”

And it was that, actually. Shahedat Ma'am, I can hear him in May. I covered many massacres. Alisarat. Hmm.

By the Americans before. He's so he's really thought this through. Oh, yeah. Like, every last detail. What did the shoes look like?

The ones you picked out? Uh... [clears throat] Bethlehem Heather Mori. It was a very comfortable one.

And it was quite heavy. Nice. [chuckles] Heather, at the Beirut. It was kind of like medical shoe, you know?

And like an orthopedic type of shoe, like... Yes. Mishhtiri Minmasov. I bought it from Egypt. Okay.

What color? Black. Okay. But size, you want to know the size? What size?

My shoes. Same number of George W. Bush president. Same size. How did you know that? He's 43.

President of United States. [chuckles] 43. Oh, your size is 43 and he's the 43rd president. That's why you're trying to say?

[chuckles] Okay. I mean, Bob was so fat of Ansarat, so I don't know. It was completely echo incident. Anyway, as he was driving over to the press conference,

on the other side, he just stopped for a second.

[chuckles] [speaking in foreign language] Right on the banks of the Tigris River. Hmm. [speaking in foreign language]

It was sunset. So I stood by the river. [speaking in foreign language] And I was just staring at the river at the sunset and I saw to myself.

[speaking in foreign language] This would be the last sunset I would ever see. [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] There's going to be a secret service there.

Like, there's a good chance I get shot and don't make it out alive. So he's willing to die to do this. Yeah. [speaking in foreign language]

“Were you thinking through a game plan in your mind?”

[speaking in foreign language] It was very simple. I just wanted to throw my shoe at him, and that's it. Can you just walk me through what happened step by step? Are you curious?

I'm very curious. [laughing] I think you know the answer to that question. Yes. So here goes.

[speaking in foreign language]

[speaking in foreign language] That was an area where most of the... [speaking in foreign language] It's where the Americans were based pretty locked down. [speaking in foreign language]

When I pass all of the checkpoints, I saw my colleagues there from the Barbaragia devastation.

“And they were kind of like, oh, okay, you came after all?”

[speaking in foreign language] I'm coming here as a citizen. I'm just coming here to watch. And he handed them his press credentials, his ID, and when he entered the press conference.

[speaking in foreign language] Somehow. [speaking in foreign language]

He was the first person in there.

[speaking in foreign language] He looked around. [speaking in foreign language] The whole was quite massive. [speaking in foreign language]

I saw all of the Iraqi American flags, podium. [speaking in foreign language] I saw the red carpet. [speaking in foreign language] In the rows of chairs, he was trying to figure out where to sit.

[speaking in foreign language] In the beginning, he went and sat on the first row. But then he thought, if I can just throw my shoe at him, then I'll actually better be little bit behind. Why? Because that was too close.

[speaking in foreign language]

“Because if I was on the front row and I throw the shoe,”

then I will be shot dead straight away. [speaking in foreign language] But if I, on the third row,

there was think before shooting at me.

As people were filing in, [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] He could feel his body catching up to the reality of what he was about to do.

[speaking in foreign language] The excitement fear. [speaking in foreign language] And then right before they all took their seats, some guards came in.

And they were giving us all of these orders. And it was quite degrading. [speaking in foreign language] And when he went up to get searched, [speaking in foreign language]

There was this one guard who was wearing-- [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] And the pilot won. He was extremely rude.

After he was done searching somebody.

[speaking in foreign language] He will literally smack them on their bottoms. [speaking in foreign language] And say, "Oh, he go." [speaking in foreign language]

[speaking in foreign language] And with other at this point, it was so amped up, you know, that if he got this guy, he just didn't even know how he was going to react.

[speaking in foreign language] Thankfully, I ended up getting searched by the other guy. And when he's getting searched-- [speaking in foreign language] And when he put them back on--

[speaking in foreign language] Because I wanted to be able to take them off easily. [speaking in foreign language] I was laughing inside because I thought-- [speaking in foreign language]

If only you knew that this is my actual weapon. [speaking in foreign language] Yeah. Wow. Okay.

[speaking in foreign language] It was time. [speaking in foreign language] Thank you for your kind invitation. [speaking in foreign language]

[speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

“He was just thinking that the only thing”

that the president is going to ace is this truth. [speaking in foreign language] When George Bush is giving the speech, are you listening to what he's saying? No, no, I don't know what he said.

I'm in another world. [speaking in foreign language] I was reciting Quran. [speaking in foreign language] I was trying to do the whole ceremonies

as if like I am leaving this world. Oh wow. He told me it felt like-- [speaking in foreign language] Like a very nasty flu.

And in this feverish haze, he heard this-- [speaking in foreign language] And this voice in his head was saying-- Like, look at your life. [speaking in foreign language]

Your chief correspondent, your own program. [speaking in foreign language] You have a house, you have a car. Your future is wide open. [speaking in foreign language]

Do you really have to do this? [speaking in foreign language] Okay. And I almost backed off, and I saw-- [speaking in foreign language]

What am I doing? [speaking in foreign language] But suddenly--

It was like he woke up.

[speaking in foreign language]

“And then I was hoping for myself and saying--”

If I back off now-- [speaking in foreign language] I would call myself a coward. Every day for the rest of my life. [speaking in foreign language]

If I lose myself respect, I don't care if-- [speaking in foreign language] And so-- [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

[speaking in foreign language] Clearly, there's a way to be one. [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

[speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

[speaking in foreign language]

[speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] This is my good bike this year, your dog. [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

“I never thought actually of saying that--”

but I just said it that moment. Oh, you didn't plan to say that? No, no, no. I bet then. How bad of an insult is it to call someone a dog?

Is it a very bad insult? Yes. [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

And-- [speaking in foreign language] When he saw-- I-- I-- I-- I-- I-- [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

I could see his space when completely pale, very pale. [speaking in foreign language] And he froze. [speaking in foreign language] And then--

[speaking in foreign language] I threw the shoe at him. And he-- he bent forward. [speaking in foreign language] And the shoe came up off him.

[speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] He was taking the other shoe.

Yeah, was that always the plan to throw both shoes--

[speaking in foreign language] My original plan was just one shoe. [speaking in foreign language] Because I thought that as soon as I'm gonna stand up and as throw one shoe, I'm gonna be shot dead.

But then-- [speaking in foreign language] When I threw the first one, and there was nothing. [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

[speaking in foreign language] So I threw the second one.

“Were you surprised at how quickly he-- he dodged the shoes?”

[speaking in foreign language] I was mainly focusing on my own actions. [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] And I kept releasing all of the anger

from all of the stories that I've covered. [speaking in foreign language] All of the anger that I was building up inside me for years and years. [speaking in foreign language] Wearing him and his father.

[speaking in foreign language] And I kept saying that this is all of the Iraqis, the FKIL, to their brain, to the affected. [speaking in foreign language] So I managed to actually--

[speaking in foreign language] really is all of that in one time. [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

[speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language] [speaking in foreign language]

[speaking in foreign language] Then I was taken by the security of the Iraqi Prime Minister. [speaking in foreign language] We'll be back with the rest of the story after this quick break. [speaking in foreign language]

This episode is supported by Better Help. Hey there, Lulu here. So apparently every year, Better Help does a survey called the state of the stigma report where they survey over 2,000 Americans trying to figure out how people feel about seeking mental health support.

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why not get professional help for what's going on on the inside of the head? You know, I don't know somewhere. He's got a little support, but seriously, if a friend or loved one comes to you, seeming a little more overwhelmed or blue or scared than usual, why not encourage them to seek help?

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Simone Sanders Townsend and I have known each other for more than a decade, Tussling over politics and policy, when she worked in the White House and I reported on it. And now we're friends and colleagues, and don't our podcast, clock it.

We are positioning ourselves at the intersection of culture and politics.

Clock it is where we talk about what we see in here in the news, so you

know what we see. All episodes are available now. All right, so we ended with you getting tackled to the ground. For most people, obviously, this is the end of the story, but firm and what we see here.

The body guards gathered on me.

“They broke my teeth, they punched me in the eye.”

And then they were shouting, oh, he's a terrorist, he's a terrorist. And Iraqi court sentenced him to three years in prison. (speaking in foreign language) He claims he was tortured pretty horrifically. Doused with cold water, shocked with electricity, beaten with iron bars.

(speaking in foreign language)

Malik is a staff, kept telling me that people are resentful about what I did

and that people hated me. (speaking in foreign language) They took me in the police system's confinement, and they locked me there for three months. Three months, oh my goodness. (speaking in foreign language)

Every single day was way longer than any day's that ever was spent in my entire life. On one of these days, Mant Heather was sitting in his cell. (speaking in foreign language) I just looked at my cell's door.

(speaking in foreign language)

“Which had two holes only, so there was barely any light coming from it.”

(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) She came and she sat on the bed.

(speaking in foreign language) I knew it was the her mother gave me some of her pictures when I was reporting on the story. (speaking in foreign language) And she just looked at me.

(speaking in foreign language) And then she disappeared. (speaking in foreign language) I was just surprised. (speaking in foreign language)

He knows that this might be sound like he was crazy, but this is actually what happened. He told me the next thing he remembered was two officers entering his cell. (speaking in foreign language)

(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) And they were asking me why I threw the shoe towards the bush. (speaking in foreign language) It's because they killed the hera.

(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language)

About what was going on while he was in prison. Because outside, the shoe throw struck a nerve. (speaking in foreign language) In the days after his arrest, people in multiple cities in Iraq

poured out into the streets. In the news footage, you can see sees of people waving shoes in the air. (speaking in foreign language) And not just in Iraq or in Middle East.

(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language)

(speaking in foreign language)

of these American activists throwing shoes

“at an effigy of bush in front of the White House.”

(speaking in foreign language) But, back to my mother. (speaking in foreign language) After nine months in prison, he ended up getting released. (speaking in foreign language)

And by this point, like, a monument had been put up in his honor. One country had offered him a middle and another country had offered him a citizenship. I'm pretty sure several people

have also offered their daughters hand in marriage to him. No way. Yeah, someone in Saudi Arabia

reportedly bid $10 million for the shoes.

Oh, my God. Although those allegedly were destroyed. Wow. And with others, impact on the culture, didn't even end there.

(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) In the few years following, (speaking in foreign language) There's many people used the shoes.

(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language)

“There's a rash of copycat shoe throwings at world leaders.”

Really? (speaking in foreign language) You have so yet again this one directed at Prime Minister of India.

(speaking in foreign language)

Prime Minister of Australia. (speaking in foreign language) Hillary Clinton was one I didn't even know about. What was that a bat? That's somebody throwing something at me.

And like truly, I'm not even joking. This is scratching the surface. There's a great Wikipedia entry of all the different shoe throwings. (upbeat music)

And I actually didn't realize that there was this much of a response to the shoe at the time until I started reporting on this, which did make me wonder, like before month other,

there was so much protest against the Iraq war already. Like what was it about this act that made it take on a life of its own? And you know, there are the obvious reasons like the high profileness of it.

The fact that it was like directly at George O'Bush,

the symbolism of the shoe that we talked about earlier. The fact that there were so many cameras in the room in this era where things kind of newly could go viral. Even just the timing of it all. Like coming at this moment in the war

where people were sick of what was going on. So it does seem like this perfect storm of things. But I do still find myself thinking back to the conversation that month other and I had earlier. About that Goldilocks space between violence

and nonviolence. It's really something I don't think I ever thought about or even had the words for it before I talked to him. Yeah, I'm just curious how you would describe that or what kind of name you would give that.

Yeah. So I went looking for somebody who could help me think through it. Like what's the label we put on the shoe box? I actually don't even know how to articulate it.

Well, quasi nonviolence methods that include the use of very low levels of I'm not really sure what the term would be. Yeah. But I think there is that niche space.

So this is Jamila Recube. I am the Executive Director of the Albert Einstein's institution, which is an organization that studies and promotes the use of nonviolence action in conflict. And she says that niche space actually does have a rich history. There is this long history of people throwing objects

at political leaders and invaders at occupiers. There's things like throwing eggs. Tomatoes, probably. Tomatoes, potatoes, potato. Potatoes somehow feels more violent than eggs.

Intimators. You know what? That's a tricky one. I think turnips. There's historical presidents for turnips. It goes back to ancient Rome.

No. Where people disagreed with the policies of a particular governor and actually through turnips at him. That sounds painful. Yeah.

The heavy roub vegetables. Yeah, that sounds more painful for sure. Yes. Exactly. And lots of modern day examples come to mind too.

Right about like pie throwing glitter. Oh, glitter. I mean, it's really hard to get off your skin.

“Did someone throw milk shake at someone at some point?”

Yes. Yeah. Nigel Frost. Right. The far right leader in the UK.

Actually important to note here also is the case of someone throwing the sandwich. Oh, I feel like I heard that one. That was in DC. Is that right? Yes.

Border Patrol. Okay. All of these Jamila says is it's a very memorable moment. The sheer spectacle of it. But also it shows that you can be anywhere at any time.

No matter how powerful you are.

Yeah.

“Because like one thing I think about with the shoe throw is how it”

ever so briefly flattens the hierarchy between one thought and George will be bush. You know? They're no longer a citizen and a president or whatever. It's like it's just like a dude throwing a shoe and dude dodging a shoe.

Right, exactly. It's just like all the roles fall away. Which one you consider that one of them has the might of the world's most powerful military behind them. And the other is a disenfranchised journalist in a war torn country.

It's kind of an extraordinary thing that they could even find themselves on the same plane. Yeah. Although I will say it didn't come without a cost because when with other tried to get back to his life as a journalist. I cannot find any devastation to work with them.

He couldn't find anyone to hire him. Why not? Because there are more more devastation in middle east. Friends with American and friends with the Iraqi government. He claimed that in order to avoid upsetting either the Iraqi government or the American government.

All of these Iraqi channels basically blacklisted him.

Which, you know, is a claim that's very hard to prove. But from multiple journalists that I've talked to, who knew the media landscape around this time, it's definitely plausible. But do you think part of it is that they stop taking you seriously as a journalist that they didn't trust you to, I don't know, be neutral and not be an activist?

I mean, it was clear that many journalists were genuinely upset by what he did. Even if you just go back to the first moments after the shoot throw. The other journalists in the room, that day, specifically some of the Iraqi journalists, were immediately apologizing directly to Bush. Journalists here were very apologetic.

They were, you know, they were said, this doesn't represent the Iraqi people,

“but that's what happens in free societies where people try to draw attention to themselves.”

When I sew it, I felt embarrassed that a journalist would have done something like that. So this is Mace O'Bayat. You've heard her already translating my conversations with month other. She is an Iraqi British journalist, because this is just what I'm professional. I mean, I don't think to a journalist can disagree about that.

I actually called her up after we were done with all of our interviews with month other. I think it was just hitting me that you, you have been through a lot of the same stuff as month other. Yeah. Like him, she was on the ground. I'm in where month other was.

I've been in the greens reporting on the invasion as it was happening for multiple international news outlets. And even though she wasn't one of the Iraqi journalists in the room that day, she told me that when she saw it, I was, I was shocked about it. No one's saying could have done that. I guess he had told me a little bit more about when I reached out to you and said,

"Oh, I want to interview this guy, I don't know what 18 years later. What did you think? What did you think of as your reaction to that?" I was surprised because like out of all of the stories on Iraq, he would not come to my mind.

I feel like there's so much more to say. What? Why him? I was genuinely surprised by your quest. But going through the interview, I got why you were interested in him.

And you know what? It actually put him in a different light.

“How so? How did it put him in a different light for you?”

Because I always thought that it was just someone who was absolutely crazy

and that it was spontaneous that this happened. But when I heard the story and heard about it, it's a thought process behind it. It took me back in time. I had a big flashback.

Back in 2008, Mason had been reporting on the Iraq War for five years. Like in a quiet day, it would be probably 50 people killed. And she was reporting those numbers day in and day out. But she says, she starts to notice that as the years were on, it became less and less sexy.

Obviously, you know, other things happen in the world. Fair enough. And then instead of taking a headline, it became the second big story, the third big story. And then suddenly it became page three.

So she said, in some sense, she understood how, on the other felt. Because even though people were seeing her reports, they just didn't have the same power anymore.

And I understand it.

I work in the news business.

I understand how people are wired. It's like, okay, we know about this.

“What's the difference between what happened last month”

and what's happening today? Nothing. People move on. It's a number. It's statistics.

It's a figure. But to me, they are not numbers. They are people. I probably even know their names. Or people might be related one way or another to them.

So when I had the interview with you and him, I got his frustration. I got one. He's like, no one cares. And he just wanted to grab attention.

It changed my mind about him. I respected him more as a person who actually really wanted to make a big statement. Do you have a sense that, like, I mean, obviously he was expressing a lot of his personal anger

and frustration. It seems very clear that he inspired other protests. But did him throwing the shoe have a real, measurable impact? Like any rock on the war or whatever?

Yeah. So yeah. I mean, just deeply obsessed with the effectiveness question. When I called Jamila, I actually asked her that also. And it was interesting to watch her brain work through it.

I think that it's more interesting how it fit into the larger puzzle of what's happening in the rest of society.

“She said, what you need to do is look at the shoe throw”

in the context of the larger struggle. In this case, the anti-occupation struggle. And ask, how did this act affect, not just George Bush and mother, how did this act affect all the characters involved in this struggle?

Yes. So like, for example, the military did it make it more difficult for them to carry out their policies, their military operations. Did it persuade them in any way? Yeah.

Or say, like, the people of Iraq, what impact did it have on ordinary Iraqis? Did it empower them for Iraqi journalists? Did it make it harder for journalists to do their job in the future?

Or even for people outside of Iraq, did it bring more people to the cause? So I'm curious. These, I mean, I don't know the answer to any of this. And honestly, I don't know either.

I mean, in some cases, it felt hard to know definitively how a certain group was affected. On balance, I just came out of the conversation feeling like, it's just hard to imagine how, you know, this one moment changed all that much.

But it did precisely what it's set out to do, which is undermine the narrative that Iraqis were welcoming US forces as liberators. Jamila reminded me that, you know,

ending the occupation was never the goal of the shoe throw.

It was always about getting people to pay attention. And in that sense, it's hard to deny the legacy of this thing. You know, I have more than a hundred key followers in the Twitter, there's many people from America, okay? Yeah.

From America, he said, "We need you, American need you. We will have an appeal of shoes at your disposal. Please come through the government. Here's shoes. Every time the American people,

the police come to Trump." No, I know, and I feel like I see this on the internet.

“Remember that dude that through his shoes at George W. Bush?”

Like, every couple of days, someone thinks of you. Yes. I'm a big fan of so many comedians, but the funniest thing that's ever happened on television in my life was that... Someone thinks of you, someone re-enhacks this shoe throw on social media.

Oh, that's funny. Someone just sent me a picture of someone on the Instagram that made a ring, etched into the ring, is like a panorama of those who are throwing the shoe. Wow. People are still thinking about and referencing this moment.

Is it on George W. Bush's Wikipedia page? Oh, good question. I wonder if that is enough of this. I mean, I will say, like, it is one of the things that George W. Bush still gets asked about. It's a very good subject.

It's a very good subject. Like, I just found a clip of George W. Bush going on Jimmy Kimmel just a few years ago.

And the first thing that Jimmy Kimmel asks him about is this clip.

Yeah. You were very good reflexes. And my guess is that Laura had done that before? Yeah. Oh, it is on George W. Bush's Wikipedia page.

Yeah, here's what it says.

Is it a section? It's not a subheading. It's like a subheading. Yeah, but it's like a little, it's like a little section. This is 2008 Baghdad shoe throwing incident.

The word shoe comes up 14 times on this page. It's in multiple places on the Wikipedia page. So like, you know, one could argue it has become a small part of the legacy of George W. Bush. Yeah. And even beyond that, honestly, I mean, the most powerful thing to me about the shoe

throw is that it's this funny looking Trojan horse where initially you're like, oh, ha ha. That was crazy. Boom. Next thing you know, we're talking about messed up stuff that happened in Iraq. Yeah.

“To me, that's what journalism is supposed to do.”

It's supposed to create an opening to talk about these things. Especially in a world where I don't think most of us Americans, at least, are eager to revisit all of the dark stuff that our country did during that time. I'm sorry Sarah Bob, I think I'm going to have to go by now. You have to go.

Okay. Back in the interview with month other by this time,

we were in our third sitting Mace had to go.

Many of them, are you okay taking over? I mean, we can try when they give it a try and we'll see how those. Yeah, yeah. That'd be great. In my producer, in Baghdad,

you can enjoy that to go over for translation might have to share earbuds. Now, medium, it so happens in addition to helping me report parts of this story is a documentary filmmaker who is making a film about month other. I think at one point he said to me, it's a shame. I wasn't like a caterpillar, like a caterpillar with 40 pairs of shoes.

I would have just kept throwing them like one after the other. And when she first met him back in 2018, he'd gone from trying to find a job as a journalist to trying to run for Parliament in Iraq. Can you tell me about him running for office? Yeah.

So there was a day when I was in Iraq and I went to a market and I was just pulling people off the street.

“And I just said, like, hey, did you know that until that is they these running for Parliament?”

What do you think about that?

I remember there was one woman that was like, it's like a rough translation of a phrase which she's like, I would carry him and his shoes on my head, which is like an honor statement. She said, if I have a son, I'm going to name him one to other. So when others reputation did get him a lot of attention in the election,

but I think the shoe throw only took him so far because come election day. He did get some votes, but not enough to win the seat. On some level, it does feel like for a lot of the world, the image of him did just get paused on him throwing the shoe. How about now?

What are you doing these days? What's happening in your day-to-day life? I'm just to write something in social media about the corrections. I'm full of the news for the dumb drum, but what happened in our love?

It is a lot of political commentating cooking at home. Playing the piano, which he does a lot, lighting candles, his favorite songs are "Guardina" and "Vinilla". And I'm studying now. Today, I have a new specialized in the interior design.

Interior design. In the university. Oh wow. Yes. What makes you want to do that?

I have more skills. It seems like he's also left the door open to maybe running for office again, but yeah, I would say the shoe throw was, it didn't improve his life in the way I think a lot of people expected. No, the thing I want to know is, like, "Do you miss being a journalist?"

Yes. In the doors? The doors? What did you say? I don't know.

There's a lot of these. It's the doors. He's trying to say it's worth it. It's worth it? Yes.

Why was it worth it? The news to happen, Moldo, but he... The text he paid was worth it for what he did, even though he lost a lot, for example, like working in the field of media, which he loves even up until this day.

Yeah. This makes me think about... So as I was telling you yesterday, and the other, the reason I wanted to talk to you is because I've been having all of this anger and frustration

about things that are happening in the world that I feel like I can't change. And I don't know what to do with it. You know? Yes, I get to you.

You get me? I get to you. If you do like me, maybe you will... You will without a job.

“Yeah, if you want to career change, you know what to do.”

I get to you. I don't know. If I'm being honest with myself, I do wonder sometimes if I should continue being a journalist, or maybe I should leave journalism

and go do something else, like be an activist, or work in politics, or, you know, something different. No, don't leave journalism.

I don't want you to leave your work, but your work should be for a cause,

“and you can help to support in one way or another.”

Monthly, it told me he still thinks that journalists do actually have real power to cause change, especially in today's world, and especially in the U.S.

Talking about you in the third person,

he said, yes, because she has more freedom and speech, more freedom of movement, more freedom of influence. And there is a difference because you're in the heart of decision making in America. The thing he said to me was like, look,

within the constraints of my life, I was trying to figure out what worked for me, how I could make a difference. (speaking in foreign language) - Eventually, I did think of something.

- Essentially, he was like, you're in very different circumstances. Everybody's case is different. Find something that works for you, the way that throwing a shoe worked for me, but I guess the thing I was wondering

as much as anything else was when he found that thing

and did it, did it work for him,

did it actually help him as a person? When we were talking before, you were telling me about the anger and the frustration that was building up inside of you. Like that you had about Zahra

or seeing that bombing. I guess I just want to know,

“did throwing the shoe help with any of those feelings?”

(speaking in foreign language) - Yes, of course, it was an expression of my feelings. He told me he does still, of course, carry around a lot of those memories from the war. (speaking in foreign language)

- When I think of Zahra, I feel grief. I was thinking the other day when I was talking to you, if she was alive, she could be a student today or married or something.

But at the same time, he told me this other story too. (speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) - She told me that when I threw the shoe,

she felt like I got, the literal translation would be like, I got my daughter's rights, but I think it's like, I guess it would be the equivalent of her.

(speaking in foreign language) - It's something along lines of justice revenge. (speaking in foreign language) - Okay, I think that's all the questions that I have.

(speaking in foreign language) (speaking in foreign language) - Yeah, I think so. I can say, you just say your name, and all everyone is right.

(upbeat music) - This episode was reported by Zahra Kari with help from Mariam Duitar. Translation by Mesal Baya and Mariam Duitar. It was produced by Zahra Kari.

Sound design contributed by Zahra Kari with mixing from Jeremy Bloom. In fact, checking by Emily Krieger and Hibba L.O.R. Bonnie.

“- If you want to know more about mediums work,”

believe me when I say her documentary about Muntather,

it's gonna be amazing, keep an eye out for it.

Or, Macy's incredible journalism about Iraq. I will link to both of those, and their social media in the episode description. - Special thanks also to Usmat Khan and Mustafa Selim. If you like this episode and want to hear more,

deep dives into the Bush era war on terror, check out our episode 60 Words, or our series, The Other Lattef. To find those search for 60 Words, radio lab, or the other Lattef radio lab,

on your favorite streaming platform. Okay, and just before we go, if you liked what you heard, you want more, you want in on that sweet sweet radio lab, bonus content, you are in luck.

We have a newsletter, usually comes out on Saturdays. There's all kinds of things in that newsletter. Recommendations from the staff. Just random things we like that don't fit in a podcast format, like one thing we loved

that we put in there was a rejection letter. We received from Ver. Herzog, that was especially floored and hilarious. Stuff we have coming up, like the live show that corresponded

to Dr. Vier Mitra, an executive editor, soren Wheeler, just did together. Yeah, it's just fun stuff.

Hmm, hmm. Hi, I'm John Colt, and I'm from Brooklyn,

and here's the staff credits.

“Waiting lab is hosted by Lumi Miller and Lattef Master.”

Soren Wheeler is our executive editor. Saras Fambat is our executive director. Our managing editor is Pat Walters. Dylan Keef is our director of Sound Design.

Our staff employees, Jeremy Bloom,

W Harry Vultima, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Cindy Nyanem Sambandan, Matthew Tint, Mona McGalper,

Anna McHueen, Alex Niesen, Saracari, Natalya Romeras, Joana Stranger,

and Lisa Vizza, Arya Wack, Molly Webster, and Jessica Young,

with help from Gabby Santos,

and Maya Apobi Miller. Our staff checkers are Norville Blidia, Harry Elkins, Rachel Griss, Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger,

Nothing Middleton, and Sophie Samae.

“Leadership Support for Radio Lab Science Programming”

is provided by the Simmons Foundation, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational Support for Radio Lab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. [MUSIC PLAYING]