Smile

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I'll see you on video friend. - Welcome to Stuff You Should Know. - A production of I Heart Radio. - Hey, welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's the chicken.

Here's your two. And this is Stuff You Should Know. - What in the world is it?

I was finally coming here.

And grinning, and when I grin, my teeth come together. Look at a bear trap. - Well, if you're smiling, I bet it's because we are headed up to see everybody on a five nights adults only.

Voyage with virgin voyages. This is October 2nd through 7th from New York City to Vermeuda. We will be doing our live show and we will be joined by our colleagues and our old pals. Stuff they don't want you to know and stuff.

I'm never told you. - That's right. So we are going to be there from October 2nd to 7th. We're going to be on that boat. - To Vermeuda from New York and back.

And you can get more information where Chuck. - At virginvoyages.com/stuff, come on. Hang out with us on a boat. - Very nice, yeah. I think we should specify you shouldn't expect to be able

to get rarer with us because you know we're happily married. - Yeah, that's right. And what happens at sea doesn't just stay at sea that travels back home and you get divorced. - That's right.

“- Yeah, and you have to go to the doctor sometimes too.”

- Yeah, you don't want that. - So we're talking today about smiling. I think it's appropriate that I said I'm happily married because you may actually requested this so long ago. Then I went to our last week and was like,

do you remember what prompted you to request smiling a long time ago? And she's like, I don't remember requesting smiling. So it will forever be a mystery. But I'm glad that we're doing this one

because we've done all sorts of other stuff laughing, discussed the scream, forgiveness. Like there's just this whole aspect of human personality that is just kind of slowly assembling into one great person, you know?

- That's right. And we did an episode in the early days. I think when we were about three years old, we were podcast toddlers on whether or not smiling makes you happy.

So we're gonna recover a bit of that to where the end. - A little. - But we should probably start out by letting everyone know that you use muscles when you smile. It is all muscle movement.

And if you want to compare a smile to like other dumb boring muscles, the reason you can smile and make like weird kind of faces is because you have a lot of fast twitch miles and fibers in your face.

And that's why you can like,

“that's why you can't make a face with your bison.”

- I kind of can, it looks like a messed up face, but it's still somebody would be like, "I see the face in there." It looks a little like Mr. Bill. - No, you can make a kick drum beat

when you flex those babies. - That's what my other one. So like I make Mr. Bill's mouth open and close

- But how do we compare to our primate friends? - Oh, well actually it turns out Chuck, I thought this is quite interesting

“that our primates are actually our primate friends”

are actually more expressive facially because they don't speak. - That's right. - That's the idea behind the whole thing. We do know that primates typically are more expressive

through their faces than humans are and that the idea behind it or the explanation for it is that humans require more slow twitch muscles, the bigger muscles to talk, to move our faces in our mouths to talk, which primates don't have to do.

So we essentially basically are fast twitch muscles

evolved into more slow twitch muscles. But we're still pretty expressive. So don't be too sad. - Yeah, for sure. If you've ever heard people say it takes more muscles

to frown than it does to smile, first of all, lightly slap that person in the face with a feather. Next move along and say, you know what, prove it. Because I looked and I couldn't, first of all, it's a very nuanced thing.

There are a lot of different smiles and a lot of different frowns. - Yeah, that's a big point. - And each of those different ones like, it takes different muscles to make those. So for someone just to sort of flatly say,

it takes 22 muscles to smile and a hundred to frown. That's I couldn't find anything that could verify

that is true or like I guess the message that they're sending

is don't use your muscles. It's better to not use your muscles. - Right, my bother, just smile. Yeah, it's funny, I looked all over too. And all I could find were dentist's websites,

which were pretty competent about that. - That's right, perfect. - Well, four out of five work. - But you said that your smile is great. You said that your smiles all include muscles.

And not just yours, Chuck, but all people's. - That's right. - And it includes a very particular muscle.

“I think one on each side, the Zygomaticus major,”

these actually pull your, the sides of your mouth up. So I guess the Joker, when his face was slashed at somehow made his Zygomaticus major, constantly contracted.

- That's right, I just want to say,

I'm not sure what's wrong with me right now. I realize that I'm stammering, having a lot of trouble. Hopefully my brain will reset while you're talking next now. - I haven't noticed anything, I think you're doing great. So there are actual people who, in boy,

they've done a lot of research on smiling and stuff, as we go, you'll probably be astounded at how much time and money people have put into this kind of thing. But they have done research and actually sort of like, coded the face in the system of muscles.

So they know like what each group does, the facial action, coding system, what is called, the facts, just the facts. - I'm going with faces. Yeah, they couldn't come up with any.

I think it's implied. - Okay. - I'm going to go with just the faces then. - Okay. - So they, like I said, they made various codes for these muscle movements

and assigned names to them, and they know that all smiles involve action unit 12, which is both of those Zygomaticus major muscles contracting. And you know, you said they raised them up, or they also raised them out because you'll see

when you smile, your smile, your mouth gets wider as well. - And the whole world smiles with you. - That's right. But if you're really happy and you're not, and we'll talk about the different kinds of smiles,

like including fake smiles. But if you're really genuinely happy with something and smiling from joy or, you know, being alive, that means your eyes are involved, and that is action unit six.

- Yeah, so a couple of things here. Action unit 12. I think is the pinnacle of band names that we've ever covered. - It's pretty darn good.

- Not only is it a great name. If you dig into what it means, you're talking about smiling. It's the name for smiling, so that's pretty awesome. But it also has a built-in abbreviation,

that's great too, AU12. Maybe even AU12. - Oh yeah, so you've got on a logo or whatever. - I really genuinely think that is the best band name we've ever stumbled upon.

- So did that just unseed frozen poop knife? - I think so. They could go on tour together. - But I mean, we retire this bit. - I don't know Chuck, it's possible.

“- Well, here's the deal. I think if we don't retire it,”

we will just have to mention almost every time from now unlike, but it's no AU12. - Okay, but yes, all the apologies to frozen poop knife,

- Yeah, they just kicked over their kick drum.

- So, I don't know, that was my bicep. - So if you take action unit 12 and action unit six together,

“that's what it's known as the doucheon smile.”

And we definitely talked about de-owned doucheon in our can smiling make you happy episode, right? - Yeah, and in fact, I think we called them doucheon because the translator has spelled that wacky. How?

- Oh, I mean, different things. Kane, K-A-I-N-E. Shane S-H-A-N-E. That's two different names, yeah, it's, you know, go A-I translator, I guess.

- Yeah, but we're gonna go with Guillem doucheon this time, who was a French neurologist. He also was dabbling with electricity.

And photography, I saw that he basically existed

at this neat crossroad of three emergent sciences that were coming out at the same time. This guy put him all the use. And he stimulated people's facial muscles with electricity. And there's an extensive set of photographs

of him doing this to this poor guy. And this guy's making all these weird facial expressions and doucheon is coding all of them. But it's kind of hysterical to think that, like, this guy's not purposely making these.

He's being zapped with electricity. And that's what's making them. Because the correct muscle combination is being zapped right then by doucheon. - Yeah, that's pretty funny stuff.

So he claimed, and this was sort of a,

“and I think people thought this is true for a while,”

was this notion that you can tell a fake smile by the eyes, and that's sort of the dead giveaway. And he may have not reinforced it, but he may have sort of planted that seed when he said that the orbicularisoculari,

which is action unit six that we talked about, the eyes, that would only contract due to the sweet emotions of the soul, which is very nice thing to say. But it turns out that's probably not true. - No, people can, including tyro banks,

can make yourself, or make themselves, I'm sorry, smile with their eyes. But there does seem to be some disagreement on whether that can fully be, ever fully be reproduced voluntarily. And I like to think that it can't be,

that there's still some smile out there that's so genuine that it can't voluntarily be reproduced fully. - Yeah, I think what the deal is is there are some people who are probably so good at the fake smile that you just don't realize it.

- Yeah, be aware of those people. - But both of those things can be true,

“I think what you said is definitely true.”

- Thanks, man. I want to say one other thing about AU6, action unit six. If you go and look at the faces, coatings, or facts, it's just like strips of like the mouth or the eyes or something like that.

And for action unit six, it is a strip of my eyes. It is very clearly somebody took my photo and just cut out the eyes. - Wow. - And it's just showing that it looks exactly like my eyes.

Dude, you should go look. - Simea screenshot, I'm not going to look it up. - Okay, I will eventually. - That's your agreement we came to. - Okay, I think that's fair enough.

- To guys who do research for living, you can't make the other one look anything up. - No, it just sends screenshot. - So if we're talking about evolution, it's a pretty human thing to just be alive in the world

and smile because you're feeling good and having a good day. If you look at something in somebody from the primate kingdom, and you see that teeth, like you've managed in those chimpanzees, bare those teeth, and everyone's like, "Oh, they're so happy."

And that's actually not what they're trying to say to you, and it doesn't mean they're trying to kill you right then either. But it's a sign of submission, apparently.

I don't know, I always, I didn't never took it as they,

they always look stressed out to me, like when I see a chimpanzee bare their teeth like that. - Yeah, I've seen 'em, it depends on, I think it depends on the rest of the face, 'cause I can bring to mind images of chimps doing that.

- The one I bring to mind more is Clyde from every which way, but loose doing that in orangutan. - Yeah, man. - He definitely did that and he didn't seem stressed out, but they definitely played it like he was laughing

or something like that and he surely wasn't. - Yeah, for sure. - One of the things about that though, Chuck, is smiling through submission, that still survived into humans for sure,

like that is something that we do, not just to say like, "You're an alpha, I'm a beta, but also to say like, "Hey, I just want to get along. No stress over here."

- Or, you know, to basically not be tense,

or if an awkward pause comes, both people might kind of smile or something like that. All of that is essentially the same thing as a chimps smiling to signal submission. - Yeah, for sure.

There was a paper in 1979, a pretty classic smiling paper, where these psychologists Robert Kraut and Robert Johnston, they were notating how people reacted, when they went bowling together, and found they were more likely to smile

when just hanging out and talking, than after getting a strike, which that totally tracks, because when you get a strike, you're supposed to have that cool,

you meant to do that. You're not supposed to turn around or go. - Right, for sure. I read a little more about that study,

one participant haste's never smiled,

and another participant, an Amishman named Ishmael smiled almost constantly.

“- Well, I think we might want to talk about a little bit,”

and I know we've covered this before, was Baby Smiling, because it's about one of the cutest darn things in the world, is when you see a little baby smile at you. That does happen very early,

very newborn infants can smile, but those are sort of just random smiles, like they may have farted or something, and they're smiling not because it's funny, they'll learn that a little bit later,

and not because they've lit it on fire, they'll learn that probably in their twin years. - That's dangerous. - Is it really? - I've always heard.

- Why not? - You never lit a fart? - I have, but I just escaped by the skin of my teeth. - It's usually just sort of a random occurrence when a very newborn baby smiles,

about four to six weeks, they start smiling when they wake up, and they see you or hear you as we'll see, but it's still sort of indiscriminate. It seems like the social smiling,

that starts at about six to 12 weeks when they're like, hey, I see Mama Dad or whoever I like to see or I hear their voice, and that makes me happy.

- Exactly, but apparently they're also master manipulators, because they've been found to time their smiles to maximize smiling from their caretaker. So they'll give you a smile, so that you'll smile at them for 30 seconds,

and they'll flash another one, and there you go, you smile and again, they learn to do that like really early. - Yeah, I wonder twins are ever like, hey, watch this. - I kind of know, I'm sure.

Did you see that link I sent you to this,

“they're about the study of baby smiling in you to row?”

- Yeah. - If you want your paper to make the national news, just make it on baby smiles, but this paper from 2022 in the Journal of Psychological Science, they gave pregnant women carrot pills

or kale pills. And when the women ate carrot pills, the babies smiled like 15, 20 minutes later, as it was adjusted and reached them, when they ate kale, the babies grimaced.

- I wonder what they did when they gave them the Reese's Peanut Butter Cup. They just started doing 360s. - Yeah, they started break dancing. - But one other thing about the study, Chuck, one of the co-authors was named Jacqueline Blissett.

- That's funny. - I mean, it's true though, I think it's great. - No, I know, but it's still funny, right? - Oh, okay. - Well, yeah.

I wonder though, if for parents we're like, we'd love Charlie's Angels that much. - I don't get the Charlie's Angels Raph. - Oh, Jacqueline Blissett was the best Charlie's Angel, if you ask me one of the original three.

- She wasn't in Charlie's Angels. - Jacqueline Blissett? - I don't know if you're thinking of Buddy. - All right, now we do need to look something up. You go ahead.

- Oh, okay, oh, go ahead. All right, so I mentioned hearing, and I plan a little seed there that a little infant, baby hearing something could make them smile. And they know this stuff because, you know,

they've done studies on whether smiles are innate or imitative. And so if you're going to do a study like this, you might want to study babies who are can generally blind, and they have found that it really doesn't make a difference. Blind infants start to smile and respond to that voice,

just like sighted babies too. And they did another study of can generally blind athletes at Paralympic Games. And this one was from 23 different cultures, because as we'll see different cultures,

like smiles might mean different things. And had the same, they had the same spontaneous expressions as sighted counterparts sort of across the board. - Yeah, which is pretty awesome. They also found that the children who were studied,

“I don't remember what study this was in,”

but basically they observed children who were given reasons

to basically mask disappointment with a smile. And apparently, and this is for real,

they had them make lists of toys they wanted, and then they gave them a toy that they hadn't asked for. And the kid would mask their disappointment with a little smile,

and they found that sighted and non sighted kids basically

made the same facial expressions in that situation too. - Yeah, amazing. Did you look up Charlie's Angels? - Yeah, I did. I was hoping you would forget.

- Jacqueline Smith. - Oh, yeah. - You got Jacqueline right. - Well, we might just take out the whole thing. - Oh, I can't ever know.

- All right. Well, I guess we'll see. We'll let the listener decide. - I don't know if that's possible. - Well, not decide, but decide how they feel about it.

- Okay. But they won't know about it if we took it out. - Well, but they wouldn't even hear what I just said then either. - No, we should leave this part in and really confuse everybody.

- Oh, man. I brought up cultural differences. Jacqueline Smith is 80 years old. - Oh, how's she doing? - She's doing great.

Hey, listen. I'm not one to comment on people's appearance because I know that's untoward. - Sure. - But Jacqueline Smith does not look like any other 80 year old

that I've ever seen. - She is the best angel. You agree, right? - Yeah, she was my favorite. I think good actor.

“I think I had a pretty big crush on her.”

- Sure. I mean, for sure. I think everybody had a crush on all of the Charlie's angels to some extent. - Yeah, but I'm with you.

I think Jacqueline Smith was definitely the top angel. - Yeah, she was great in the deep too. - Oh, yeah, that's good, movie. I was trying to make a joke. I thought that was Jacqueline Beset who was in the deep.

- Oh, wait. She wasn't the deep. - Yeah. - Oh, boy. - We're going to take that part out too.

- Oh, okay. The Jerry's going to have fun with this one. She's me like, I'm going to pass this one on to Ben. I got stuff going on. - Can't you hear people being like,

get back to smiling? - I know. All right, back to smiling. I mentioned different cultures because, you know,

“there's the idea of like, what if I'm in a different culture?”

And I'd like smile at someone. And that actually means like, I hate what you just fed me or something like that. - Yeah. - So they've done a lot of studying over the years. There's in the '60s.

It was the college named Paul Ekman who did experiments, where they just showed images of faces to different cultures. And then, like, had them pick from a list on what emotion that was.

And he was like, all right, here's what I came up with.

There are six universal facial expressions, only six. Anger, disgust, enjoyment, fear, sadness, and surprise. Later, he said, contempt. All right, there is a seventh. We'll add contempt.

But a lot of people who pick that apart because he was multiple choice. And they're like, it's probably a better study and people have done it since. If you just show them pictures and have them like right down. What that is and not to pick from your list. - All right.

And he also was over their shoulder pointing to the correct answer whenever. - Exactly. But that's not to say that he was wrong. It does turn out that subsequent research and a lot of it has essentially found that, yeah, there's pretty much

universal agreement on what facial expressions mean. There's a lot of disagreement, but for the most part, you're going to find the vast majority. Look at someone smiling and associate that with happiness.

“- Yeah, I think there's some nuance in there depending on where you are.”

Interestingly, they did find that people smile more in countries that have a lot of immigration. As a whole, like countries that are like the United States that are formed from people from all over the world, melting pot. Yeah, like Brazil is another one.

And some researchers have put out, and makes sense to me, that like, yeah, when you have a bunch of people living in a melting pot, people generally want to get along. So they're probably using a smile more than you might in a country where, like, most people are from there.

- Yeah, it's like a non-verbal way of saying, "Hey, friendly, I'm friendly too, great." - Yeah, totally makes sense, I think. - Also, this one, I was unsure about countries with low population densities. They have more room to smile, I don't know.

Or they just have fewer other people to deal with. Those are my two interpretations. - Yeah, I agree. - But like you said, there are some nuance to the whole thing. In East Asia, specifically in Japan and China,

they basically emphasize the eyes.

Like, that's where the smile lay in Action Unit 6, me essentially. And they don't even apparently use the, like, curved line for a smile on their emoticons. It's just the eyes as triangles, basically,

simulating Action Unit 6. - Yeah, that's got a fun. Another thing that smiling conveys, or at least, I don't know if it conveys it, but people take it this way, is they find people not only happier, but more competent

- Sure, give me a smile, baby.

- Yeah, I don't know, don't say that. In 2015, those a study that showed photographs of people with different expressions to 44 different cultures around the world. And they found that, like in China, in Germany, in Egypt, they associated smile with intelligence, but in Japan,

France, and Iran, I guess I'm on that sort of A sound. They thought it meant, or at least they correlated with lower intelligence. - Like, they think you look dippy if you have a big smile in those countries.

- I guess it depends on the person in the smile. - Sure. - Like, cleat as a slack-jawed yokeles, big toothy smile. Like, I could see that. - Yeah.

- And what's interesting, too, is there's different different countries or cultures have agreed at different periods of time, too, as we'll see? - So we take a break?

“- Let's take a break, because I think that was one”

of the best cliffhangers we've ever come up with. - Sure, we'll be right back. (upbeat music) - Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what, we have some big news.

- What's the news, the news? - The news. - We created our own podcast. - Oh, hey, Jonas. - We invented a podcast.

- Well, we didn't invent it. We just contributed to it. - For the first time.

- First people to do podcast.

- Pretty. - Yeah, pretty wide range of podcast. - Podcasting is present. - But this one's extra special. - So how do we actually come up with a name

hey, Jonas, guys? - I honestly don't remember.

“- I think it was on a call about what we should call it.”

And, oh, we were thinking, originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. - Well, this is how you guys remember it going down. - Yes. - I have a very different memory of this.

- We were talking about a thing. A bit for the podcast. We put the call in and say, hey, Jonas, and then I broke down on my little note pad. Hey, Jonas, and offered it up as a potential title.

- Oh, the title. - But thanks. - But thanks for remembering that, guys. - Listen to hey, Jonas, on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

Just listen, we don't care where you hear it. - Why is everyone obsessed with romance right now? - Like everyone. - Your co-worker, who, quote-and-quote, doesn't read, is reading romance.

- Your mom, booktock, the entire internet. - I'm Sanjana Basker. - I'm Tyler McCall. - And this is Radio 831, a romance podcast. The books, the tropes, the adaptations,

the drama, the discourse. - And what all of it says about how we actually love yarn and obsess. - We're going to weathering heights. - Which, for the record, is not a romance novel,

and yet it has haunted the romance genre for 200 years. - We're getting into dark romance. Age gaps. - Certain Russian hockey players. - And sentient objects.

In love, which is a thing. - That's the kind of conversation we're having every episode. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Keith Jumanko seemed like a mild mannered suburban dad.

But secretly, he became someone else. A master of disguise who went on a crime spree. - At the time did it seem like a crazy idea? - It seemed very crazy. - But I felt so desperate that I felt

it was the quickest, easiest way out. - Did you allow yourself to think about

“how would you go wrong and what that might look like?”

- No, I didn't want to manifest that. I want to, I was trying to manifest success. - Every family has its secrets. But what happens when you discover that your dad has been living a double life?

- That is not the look of an innocent. This is going to change my life and my family dynamic forever. Because everything that had existed prior in my reality is now untrue. - Listen to deep cover the family man.

On the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - So, Chuck, we're on to the history part. Shout out to Colin Jones, who wrote a really good article on Aeon.

He was the author of the book "Smile Revolution" Colin in 18th century Paris.

I've never seen it Colin be more useless

than the one Colin Jones put into his book title. But regardless, this Aeon article was super helpful. - Yeah, I mean, are you talking about portrait painting?

but he's basically the progress of smile, the smile being acceptable in western culture. It traces a pretty long heritage, and it's headed ups and downs essentially. - Yeah, like I definitely,

I mean, it makes sense,

but I never knew that portraits being so serious.

Like painted portraits. It was because it's, you can't make it a realistic looking smile. Because smiling again is something ideally that's happening spontaneously. And you can't hold that while you're sitting for a portrait. So that's the reason why all those portraits

for so many hundreds and thousands of years were just more serious looking. - Yeah, because you can just feel like a hurry up. - I know, it's no good. - Yeah, that is pretty interesting too.

I guess we talked about something like that in the orthodontic episode, because I think also there was just like, you just didn't show your teeth like that was just etiquette. There was a manual for boys, an etiquette manual that said,

that decorum forbids you to allow your teeth to be uncovered since nature gave us lips to conceal them. And I saw also that there was this general idea that if you were going to laugh, okay, we'd rather you don't. But if you're going to laugh silently,

and laugh with your mouth closed, and there's a painting from 1624 by Franz Halls called the Laughing Cavalier,

“that if you want to see what that looks like,”

it's that, and it looks like essentially a smug half smile. That's apparently laughing in the 17th century. - Yeah, I mean, if you look at old yearbooks, people didn't start smiling till later. You know, teeth were fairly janky for a while,

and it's theorized that it's just a holdover from the portrait painting days, where if you sat for a portrait, and then later in photography, it's just a more formal sort of thing.

It's not a candid, and so you don't just sit there and flash a big smile. But people started doing that eventually. I did, who helped us with this one? - Olivia, did.

- Yeah, Olivia saw some research that said that early photography too, like long exposures, people couldn't hold a smile, but I kind of called bunk on that. I've seen that online, but by the 1850s and 60s,

it was only a few seconds of exposure, like the cameras were good enough for that. So I think it had more to do with the holdover, but it just wasn't something that people did, like smiling like a dope and a painting

or a picture was just untoward. - Yeah, like you said, smiling like a dope,

basically in Europe for hundreds and hundreds of years,

smiles were associated with you being immature, you being drunk, you being insane, and like that's just, well, that was the way you depicted people, was showing them smiling and like a painting,

and the viewer would know what you were showing was maybe like a patient in an asylum or somebody who was meant to be drunk or something like that.

“That was the only way you would show it.”

And in the United States, at least, it wasn't until the 1930s when people started actually smiling for photographs, and it really took off after that because of advertising, ads for cameras that basically said,

hey, you should smile with a picture. What's your problem? Just go ahead and smile. Don't you know it takes more muscles to frown than to smile? - Yeah. Yeah, they're like, by the new codex,

so you can capture your dower grandmother in all her majesty. - Exactly. But there was, did you mention the U-book study? - No, not a study just in U-books, but in your books, like it took a while for that to catch on.

- Right, yeah, some study basically tracked it.

And then, I guess, I think I said by the 30s, it really started to take off in them by the 50s, this is anecdotal. But just from watching Happy Days, your book photos essentially became big goofy grins.

'Cause just imagine Ralph Malph or Potzi have been like a solemn look in their U-book photo. You can't do it. - Yeah, I mean, I don't have a ton of pictures of my parents growing up,

but I think I do have like the college portraits of their yearbooks and they're both smiling-ish in those. - Yeah, there's a, I have one picture of my parents, I think right before I was born, and they're smiling, it's like a portrait,

they're smiling at each other. - My dad's goofy. - Should we talk about types of smiles? - Sure. - Boy, you really had me on an edge there.

So, Ekman, the guy at the, you know, psychologist that I was talking about, the study a lot about smiles. He talked about identifying a real genuine enjoyment smile because of the eyes, those Duchenne markers.

“And that's what we kind of said early on”

is that a lot of research is found that like the real genuine smiles is in the eyes, but you can still fake that.

Like this is why I'm like,

“I'm holding out hope that there is a smile”

that cannot be voluntarily replicated. Ekman said in a true Duchenne smile, the eye cover fold between your eyebrow and the eyelid or the top of your eyelid. That actually goes downward a little bit.

And then the ends of your eyebrows dip down with it a little bit. You can't do that on your own. You can't do that. Like I'm having to pull my face right now

and make myself do that. - That's right. And so next time you're on a blind date, if you're trying to figure out if they are truly, truly enjoying and smiling,

just stare as hard as you can at the eye cover fold and see what it reveals. - Bring a caliper with you so you can take accurate measurements of the width of the eye cover fold.

- That's right. People have categorized smiles over the years

because they, you know, some are just for joy,

but a lot of smiles have purposes like you were talking about earlier. Like, hey, it's cool here. Like, we just want to get out alive, right? There is the reward smile,

which is very eye-engaged

“and offers the feedback to your conversation partner”

of like, like, hey, I'm liking what you're laying down here. - Yeah, hey, my eyes are up here. - That's right. That's right.

There's affiliate of smiles that show friendliness. These are the ones you'll flash a stranger at the grocery store, you know? - Yeah. - Like, hey, if you're from the side.

- I can sneak up behind you and club you with the giant bottle of wine. - That's right. There's dominant smiles, too, which, you know,

essentially, like, the lip will be lifted a little bit, usually it's asymmetrical. I think it's one of those ones where, like, you just know if you've been smile with the dominant smile, because you just have a bad taste

to your mouth all of a sudden? - For sure. Eggman identified 18 smiles, right? I'm gonna go through all those, but I think we should talk about,

did you want to? - No, I think we should. - We should talk about a couple of them. One of my favorites is the miserable smile. - Yeah.

- It is usually asymmetrical and layered on top. And it usually follows a negative expression. So it's trying to convey, like, you're not trying to hide that you're unhappy, and you're just accepting what's happening.

So I would act that out as the smile like, "Well, I guess this is happening now." - Yes. I would chalk the current raining champ of the miserable smile as far as Hollywood

goes up to the actor. I don't know her name, but she was in, I don't feel at home in this world anymore. She was at the star of that. Don't inflate Leonardo DiCaprio's wife

and don't look up. She's good at that. - Okay. - Have you not seen, I don't feel at home in this world anymore?

- No, was that a movie or a TV show? - It was a movie. It was a indie movie. To be McGuire. Frodo.

- I'm sorry, Frodo. He was in it with her. - Elijah Wood. - Oh, you're Melanie Linsky. She's the best.

- Okay, yes, her. Thank you for coming up with that. That movie is definitely worth seeing. It's a great indie movie. - Yeah, I'll check that out.

I love both of them, especially like her. She's wonderful. She's married to Jason Ritter. - No way. - Yeah, great.

One of the great couples. - Okay, good. - I mean, Hollywood couples. They're usually phonies. They seem pretty real.

- Yeah, because they're always at that miserable smile.

- That's right. What other smiles, Josh? What's your favorite? - Well, miserable smiles, my favorite too. - Okay.

- The embarrassment smile, I think, is kind of funny. - Oh, yeah. - 'Cause it's just so involuntary. Like, if you imagine somebody actually doing this, it's hard to do, and it kind of makes you appreciate what actors do.

Just how hard it is to be a good actor. Because you might be called upon to do an embarrassment smile, where you're embarrassed, and you smile. It's kind of usually like, just barely tilt it up. Your lips are pressed together, and you're looking downward.

Maybe even to the side a little bit. And it's just so quick, and just so you just can't stop yourself. You just do an embarrassment smile, and everybody's like, "Oh, it's okay." Except for that one guy who's got the dominant smile,

because you just showed that you're embarrassed. - Yeah. - And now he knows that you're a mark. - Yeah. - Yeah.

“- That's how those embarrassment smile goes.”

- All right, well, you know what? Let's take a break. And I'm gonna cover my favorite last favorite smile right after this. I know our timing is just all wonky on this, and this 'cause we're having fun.

So we'll be right back with my favorite smile. (upbeat music) Hey, it's us, the Jonas Brothers, and guess what? We have some big news. - What's the news?

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We just contributed to our first people to do podcast.

- Pretty wide range of podcasts, right? - podcast, right? - But this one's extra special. So how do we actually come up with a name, hey, Jonas, guys?

- I honestly don't remember.

“- I think it was on a call about what we should call it.”

And, oh, we were thinking, I'm originally calling it one of the early names of our band before Jonas Brothers. - Well, this is how you guys remember it going down. - Yes. - I have a very different memory of this.

- We were talking about a thing, a bit, for the podcast. We put the call in and say, "Hey, Jonas." And then, "I" broke down on my little note pad. "Hey, Jonas," and offered it up as a potential title. - Oh, the podcast.

- Oh, the podcast. - But thanks for remembering that, guys. - Listen to "Hey, Jonas" on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Just listen, we don't care where you hear it.

- Why is everyone obsessed with romance right now? Like, everyone? - Your co-worker, who, quote-and-quote, doesn't read. - Is reading romance. - Your mom, booktock, the entire internet.

- I'm Sajana Basker. - I'm Tyler McCall. - And this is Radio 831, a romance podcast. The books, the tropes, the adaptations, the drama, the discourse. - And what all of it says about how we actually love,

yarn, and obsess. - We're going to weathering heights.

“- Which, for the record, is not a romance novel.”

- And yet it has hunted the romance genre for 200 years. - We're getting into dark romance. Age gaps. - Certain Russian hockey players. - And sentient objects.

In love, which is a thing. - That's the kind of conversation we're having every episode. Listen to the Radio 831 podcast on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Here's something that should not be as complicated as it is.

Getting a racist tattoo removed. And here's something that should be a whole lot easier than it is. Getting a new one, put up in its place. - As long as you're the politics of race in America, there's going to be a politics of remembering the civil war.

- To get to school, I had to go down Robbyty Lee Boulevard. Get to the groceries store. I had to go down Jefferson Davis Parkway. - If you're in a store in, and you leave out half of what the history is, you're not turning a job.

- I'm a Keela Hughes. In rebel spirits, season two, goes deep on both of those things. The fights, the politics, the people who won, and my personal campaign to add something to the Kentucky State House. That's actually worth the wall space.

- We are more than our bodies. We contain essence. We contain spirit. How do you represent that?

“- They are just fueling a fire that is really catching.”

- You'll see what I mean. Listen to rebel spirits season two. On the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music)

- All right, everybody. I'm just going to call this the William H. Macy, in his office in Fargo, Smile,

when Fran McDormott meets him for the first time.

It's that smile. It's the coordination smile. And the coordination smile indicates cooperation and acknowledgement. Slightly asymmetrical, and it's sort of slight, but Bill Macy and that scene with the, yeah.

We'll just do a lot of count. We'll just shoot those numbers right on over to you. So like he's coordinating, he's showing cooperation, but it's still kind of funny. - Oh, you have a business smile almost.

- He's great at that though, too. - Yeah. And it also has like, I'm just so pathetic. Like, you can't even question me. Like, just overlook me, kind of.

Yeah. You know that movie's 90 minutes long? - Man, we need to get back to that. Anything two hours or over means that the producers did not rain the director in.

- No, I agree. Movies are too bloated now. And if anyone ever makes it like a projector or make an argument that we really need that, I would just say Fargo and walk out of the room.

- Yeah, and that's all you need to say. But yeah, I've been watching some 90s and 80s movies, and they're definitely like 90 minutes. It's all it takes. It's all it should take.

I saw 52 pickup recently. - Oh, who was that? Roy Scheider and Morgot? - Yeah. That's right. That's right. Good movie. - He was all right.

- I love Roy Scheider. - It was much more hardcore than it makes you think

it's going to be in the first like 15 minutes.

- 'Cause you thought it was about cards, and just like throwing a month, playing that game. - It's just an hour and a half of that. - Uh-huh. - I've got one more smile, Chuck.

- All right, let's hear it. - The uncanny smile. - Oh, okay, so you're talking about, they made a whole movie franchise around that. - Yeah, smile, right.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. It was also the ghost family and insidious, the first one. - Yeah.

Jack Nicholson might have been the progenitor

of the whole thing in the shining. When he's got that smile where he's like, - Look here's Johnny. - Yeah. - He's looking like over.

He's looking his chin's down, but his eyes are up, and he's got that crazy smile on his face. - Yeah, it's very unsettling. - It is, that's the uncanny smile,

and it will haunt your dreams. - Okay, I didn't know if he had any signs behind it. - I looked, and I couldn't find anything. The most I could find was that it was contextually wrong.

- Right. - That kind of set our brains on edge from that. And then also, if you really know that you kind of know about the facial coding system, if you look at it, the AU6 is definitely not in effect,

because the eyes are usually staring, - Yeah. - There's this strange grin, and that is not a normal combination.

“- Yeah, I mean, I think what's important,”

there doesn't need to be science, as long as everyone agrees that it's scary for movies. - Mm-hmm. - Yeah. - What else, buddy?

Oh, I think we've reached the best part. - Does smiling make us happy? - Yes. - Yeah, so, like I said, we did a full episode on this,

but that was three years in, and I don't think we were very good at that point, so hopefully this will be better. I was approved by this episode today. - What is that?

- Yeah, right. This was a throwback, wasn't it? - Yeah.

- We should have gone for the second ad break, right,

before we went to the listener mail. - Yeah. - So the idea that smiling makes us feel happier, apparently traces itself back to Darwin. And Darwin was big into smiling.

He saw facial expressions in general, as evidence of vestigial behavior

“that we had from our primary ancestors, right?”

- Yeah. - And there have been tons of studies to find out if that's true, and they've come back with, like, mixed results. Some of them are, like, kind of, maybe,

but others are, like, "Yeah, I don't know about that." - Yeah, it's a tough thing to test, because what they do is, like, they have different methodologies. One of the early ones, I think,

was from 1988, and they said, "You know, they put a pin in your mouth, like sideways, which will, you know, make sort of a fake assimilation of a smile, I guess." - Well, that's if you have the pin sticking

out of your mouth straight between your teeth. - Right. - No, really. - No, no, I thought it was, I thought they would put it sideways,

so it would make your lips out. You're saying they just hold it in your teeth, like a cigarette? - Yes. In the middle of your mouth,

you don't make your smile, and then if you put it, like, in between, like, sideways, that makes your frown. - Huh, not me, buddy. - You got a pin handy?

- Well, I'll do it, and I'll text it to you. - No, no, I'll make your research. - Send me a screenshot. - Well, either way, if you hold that pin between their teeth, they will then ask you questions, like,

are you happy, are you not happy, stuff like that, and, like, look at this thing, does this make you happy? And I guess I suppose to indicate that, like, if your mouth is forced into a smile,

that you'll be happier, that just it doesn't make sense to me.

“- Yeah, that's the study, that's what they study is just,”

like, if you can, if the facial feedback that you're getting, showing that you're smiling, it can happen in the reverse, rather than smiling, because you're happy, if you make yourself smile, can that make you happy, right?

And that one, that first 1988 study, to keep people from knowing that they were being tested about smiling, they told them that they were, they were testing out new methods to help disabled people right, who didn't have arms,

so they were trying to figure out ways to help them right, so that people, that's what they thought they were doing. And then they, they said, here, check out this cartoon. Is this funnier or not? And I guess all of the cartoons were Ziggy,

so everyone thought they were funny, but the people who were making the smiles thought they were funnier than everybody. Wow, all right, that got way more interesting once I knew what they, how they lied.

Yeah, they definitely lied for sure.

Never touched a research.

This one from 2024 has carries a little more weight for me because it's not just sticking up in someone's mouth. A psychologist named Sebastian Corb of University of Essex and did a thing where he ran a little electric current into their, those fast twitch muscles,

which forced like a smile to happen. For just like half a second. And then they assessed whether a, like a digital image of a face looked happy. So apparently when they do those tiny little smiles,

people were more likely to identify a neutral face is happy. Yeah, and the big failing of all of these studies is that they go social psychology at the end. Like, are you happy? Do you feel happy?

Is this comic funny? Is this neutral face happy? And it just becomes so subjective and self-reporting that it's the jury still out, I think.

There's my comedian. Am I making you laugh? What am I clown to? Amused you?

“I just watched that again the other night.”

Uh, what is that? Good fellas? Yeah. I mean, it's still great. Hmm.

You know, it's not great. Is the aviator? Uh, because I mentioned that in the Howard Hughes episode. I just watched the Howard Hughes and Vegas bit. Hmm.

But I had recently seen this course. It was a crazy documentary series and I was like, you know, I should watch all of the aviator. It's not one of his best. No, I know it didn't get a lot of praise.

Yeah. It was two and a half hours long too, wasn't it? It was pretty long. It was not 90 minutes, I'll tell you. Uh, there is one more intervention about smiling.

Make you happy. It's from dialectical behavior therapy, DBT. Okay. And it employs the half smile. And it essentially tells you to make a little smile

that you know you're smiling, but it not that you look like crazy to other people, right? So other people can't really tell. They might see that you might look slightly different. And maybe a little more approachable and

you normally would with a BRF. But it has been shown again anecdotally that it actually does increase your your sense of positivity. I know that sounds hippy-dippy, but I believe it actually works. What's BRF?

Uh, be resting face. No, okay.

I've always heard I never heard it in that order.

Uh, what are you here at us? RBF. Uh, me and I am off today. We're going to edit that part out too. I think you're doing great.

This is a capital episode. Uh, let's see. Oh, there's one other thing too. One more story. Let's hear it.

And again, so it's like called you take it with a green salt, but they found that service employees who have to engage in surface acting, like part of your job is smiling and seeing a happy whether you are not. Uh, tend to be heavier drinkers than people outside of the service industry. That's sad.

It is. And that explains why hotel reception people are constantly blotto. If you've ever noticed when you check in. They are wasted to a person.

“That's why because they're forced to smile.”

That's right. Makes sense. You got anything else, man? I got nothing else. This was this was great, new and improved smiling happiness episode.

It was new. Okay. I guess that means it's time for listener me. [bell ringing] That's right.

Might as well finish this one with a correction, you know. Yeah, I think we should. Hey guys, from 2011.

First I'm correct you're here.

No. I wanted to say we, we love the immense amount of work you put into educating so many people. And so many topics for so long my partner and I are so excited to see your live show in Ottawa, Ontario. Yeah. Capital of the Great White North.

Yeah. It's probably good time to mention. We're going to six different places in Canada in June and July. Mm-hmm. And we're super excited.

We're trying to move some more tickets in a couple of these specifically Montreal. So if you're in and around Montreal, I mean, this is it. This is your shot. We'd love to see you there. Yeah.

Yeah. All right. So, quick email guys about the a minor historical mix up in the hidden bird disaster episode. Um, Josh, one of you stated. Thank you, Chuck.

That the USA's Eddie Rick and Bocker took out German ace, the Red Baron. Yeah. Manfred Bon, Rick Duffin. Right. But that's not the case.

I'm sorry. The Red Baron was killed on April 21, 1918 over the Psalm. He was loaded the ground, chasing and inexperienced Canadian pilot. Lieutenant Wilford May. Canadian Royal Air Force pilot Captain Arthur Roy.

Brown. Drows steeply to defend May and fired at the Baron's Foker Triplane. While Brown was officially credited with the kill. Modern Ballistics, medical exams, and historians favor the theory that the fatal bullet came from Australian ground troops who saw them coming.

Specifically, it's widely believed to have been fired by Sergeant Sedrick Pupkin. Or Gunner's Robert Buuy. And William snowy Evans, as Rick Duffin flew dangerously low over Allied lines. Hmm. As for Eddie Rick and Bocker, he didn't even see active aerial combat until April 1918.

The very month the Red Baron died. So, I mean, I'm not, I'm not a crackpot, right?

“Like, that's what we've been taught all these years that Eddie Rick and Bocker took out the Red Baron, right?”

I have no idea. This isn't like a Jacqueline Beset, Jacqueline Smith type thing. I have no idea, because I'm not steeped in that kind of stuff. Like, if you say Red Baron, I think of Snoopy. I do too.

But I'm saying, like, I've never done any World War I flying ace research.

This was literally taught to me in school as far as I can recall. Well, hey, I believe that. I'm just saying I just don't recall. Well, that's funny. So, I wonder who really did it.

Because Australia's got their people. Canada's got their people. We have our people. Who knows?

Okay, I think that's great.

I'll put my money on snowy too. Sorry, Rick and Bocker. Yeah, and that's anonymous, by the way.

“That was a guy and his partner who were big history buffs.”

I'm not sure why. It was anonymous. There's nothing. I guess they just don't want their namesets. So that's, I guess, we'll see the anonymous people in Ottawa. They'll be out there with sacks over their heads.

Yeah, for sure. Thank you, anonymous. Yeah, that wasn't so controversial.

But okay, we'll definitely always respect your privacy.

We'll respect your privacy, too. If you write to us and you're like, do not read my name. We will never do that. You know what I bet it is? Is they don't want to be out it?

Is going to that show? Because they told their friends so they don't really like that. Wanted to go with them that they weren't going. Oh, out. I'll bet you're right.

Yeah. Or some friend asks them to move or drive into the airport. And they're like, we're going to be out of town. Yeah, we're having a painting party. Let's see.

Well, I guess that's it.

“And if you, oh, like I was saying, if you want to be like anonymous,”

and even if you want to remain anonymous, send us an email. Send it off to [email protected]. Stuff you should know is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, my heart radio visit the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcasts are wherever you listen to your favorite shows.

Hey guys, it's us and the Jonas Brothers, I'm Joe. I'm Kevin. And I'm Nick and guess what? We created our own podcast called Hey Jonas. We invented a podcast.

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