The Odyssey Episode

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“Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of iHeart Radio.”

Hey and welcome to the app that casts. This is Josh. There's Chuck Jerry's here too. We're all wearing breast plates and that means this is Stuff You Should Know. To protect our chest. Yes, I'm also wearing a cod piece, but that's not unusual for me to protect your cod. I know. Why is it called that? They should the day.

What if you dated somebody who referred to that as your cod? Wouldn't you be like, please stop calling it that? Yeah, so do you mind giving me some privacy? I'm in here washing my cod. Right. They would say I'm sorry. I majored in the Canterbury Tales. What a weird way to start the Odyssey.

I know. I know. And you're the one who wrote those lines. So I know this true. Yeah, we're talking about the Odyssey.

“You saw the Odyssey and you were like, how's the Odyssey work? And here we are, right?”

Yeah. I mean, you know, I saw the movie. I thought it was really good. I am no Christopher Nolan fanboy. I'm about 50, 50 with him. Maybe 60, 40 with ones I like. Which ones do you like? Aside from a mental obviously.

Well, I like to a mental. I liked the prestige. I like the Batman movies. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Didn't love. I mean, up in Homer was quote unquote good, I guess.

But it was a bit of a slog for me, and I never wanted to see it again.

I could see that. I think you and I had the same problems with interstellar. Yeah. I did not see Tenet because I heard it was so bad. So yeah, he sort of hit her, missed for me. But I really thought the Odyssey was great.

And it kind of hit me after I saw it. I was like, it's kind of just crazy. This idea, this story that's this old, like one of the oldest stories. Like, can still resonate with an audience in 2026. And like, what is it about that story itself?

And I knew nothing about just the, the Odyssey as a literary piece. And that didn't know much about Homer. Like, that was an English major. But we didn't, I guess I didn't do the classes where we studied this stuff. Well, in your defense, it was written in an ionic, not English, so. Yeah. Good point.

So yeah. I can totally see where you're coming from. That this story has legs, I guess, as how you'd put it. Yeah, it's just kind of fascinating to me as a piece of work. For sure.

And let's talk about this piece of work because there's a lot to talk about. Not just recounting the highlights of the story and spoiling the movie. I guess for anybody who hasn't paid attention over last like 2000 something years. Yeah, if you can't spoil something written in the eighth century, then I'm just sorry.

“Yeah. Yeah. So about almost 3,000 years ago, the 700's BCE, right?”

That's where they think Homer first put this to paper.

But the whole thing, and it's attributed to the Greek poet Homer, who, I guess, this would have been post bronze age. Like, after the Bronze Age collapse, I think, is when Homer was walking around.

which is kind of the prequel to the Odyssey to Homer.

“And they think that it was first written down, like I said, in the 700's, the 8th century BCE,”

but that it was probably around way longer than that. Because the whole thing is set up as a form of oral storytelling. Yeah. I mean, you know, just you mentioned quickly that it was sort of a sequel, or the Iliad was a, did you say prequel? You bet I did.

Well, the Odyssey is 24 books. One book for each letter of the Greek alphabet, but the Iliad that you were talking about talks about Agamemnon's return from the Trojan War,

and then the Odyssey basically covers Odysseus.

His return from the very long delayed return from the Trojan War. And what was your question that you asked before I side-tracked this? Do you remember? I asked you what Christopher Nolan movies you like. Yes, he said the right before this.

That's the last question I remember asking you. Oh, that's okay.

“But I think I know what you said, something about it being an oral tradition that was much older, right?”

Yeah. Yeah, I must have said right. That's right. That was my question. Am I right? I can't believe how good we are at this 18 years in 18 years.

It astounds me sometimes. Masters. I know. It's almost like we're both sleepwalking right now. No, no, no, not sleepwalking.

I'm the phone. So we don't know how closely the Odyssey resembles the story that Homer told in 700, because you were right, it was an oral story. It was an oral tradition. And it was supposed to be told by memorizing it and re-telling it by, you know, from bars,

telling a story to people in a crowd, maybe changing a thing or two.

“You know, the idea is that it's pretty likely that this thing was a little bit like a game of telephone, right?”

Yeah, you know, like as you learned it and you passed it on, you could kind of embellish it in this way. Yeah, you're like, I don't really care that much about the siren. So I'm not going to give them as much play as maybe the guy who taught you how to say this did. And then it really started to take its final shape.

Again, when it was finally put to papyrus.

I want to say pen to paper, but probably quail to the tire. This is how it was first done, right? I love that. That's when it really kind of started to take a solid form. Because now it was like, now you just basically copied it, right?

You didn't have to memorize it or anything like that. But it was far from the only like legend or tail of like Greek culture and Greek heroics and like Greek more lessons and all that, right? But it was just for some reason that I don't think anyone's really put their finger on. It just has resonated throughout the year. So it's the one that we tend to think of when we think of this whole stuff.

It was a cornerstone of Greek culture like this is just part of your indoctrination and of growing up in ancient Greek culture. You'd knew the elite among other things or the Odyssey probably the elite too. Among other things you'd at least heard it probably more than once.

And then finally Plato comes along and he's like, this is all rubbish.

We need to start using our noodles. So he tried to actually ban the Odyssey and it didn't take because people love it that much. That's right. It lived on. You mentioned it was an ionic Greek which is an Asiatic dialect. And it's been gone for more than 2,000 years.

So if you're wondering how we got to the point where Christopher Nolan is working on a screenplay adapted from a 21st century novelized version, I guess. It's sort of a winding road. The first print copy came around in 1488 and it was produced in Italy in that ionic Greek. And then I guess about 100 years later or so or at least in the next century it was finally translated to some European languages. Some actual living languages and then in 1616 we got our first English translation of this epic poem from a British poet named George Chapman.

That's a pretty British name if I've ever heard one. Yeah, for sure. So yeah. So now it starts to come into our awareness, our understanding. And you know, him translating it and then other people translating it from the original, you know, we talked a little bit about just the original oral translations. But when you finally get to like written translations, it also took a bit of a winding road, obviously.

Yeah, because the thing was written originally or created originally to be spoken. And it actually follows a specific meter, like the rhythm that you're supposed to say it in, it's called Homeric hexameter.

And then the three in the three syllable units, these doctels, the first syllable is stressed and then the next two are not stressed.

“So it's like, hi, how are you doing today guy, right? Do you have to sing it?”

I actually, I saw somebody a video of somebody not only reading it in English, but reading it in ionic. Oh, wow. Yeah, and I couldn't tell any difference from somebody just reading it normally, but that's not something that literally translates very well into other languages, including English. So these, the translators basically had to make some big decisions essentially. Yeah, I mean, it's almost like translating the Bible, you know, through the various translations of the Bible over the years.

There was, you know, each time someone's doing that, they're writers that are doing that, so each version's going to be a little bit different. Right.

You know, a language, especially, you know, in the case of a poem, it's going to have a unique rhythm, but people's native tongue have unique rhythm as well, and just where they're from.

There are unique cultural experiences that happen. Some of these trans, late, better than others, I guess. Yeah. And so, you know, you're really, you know, you're not rewriting in, like, I don't think people made up like a ton of stuff out of whole cloth, but making it relevant for the audience that they're writing it for, which would have been in their language for the people in their country, because they wanted them to get something out of it. Yes. Yeah. Most translators have ignored the, there's a joke in one of the books about laying with a goat, and it just does not translate well into modern times.

That's right. Got to leave that with mine. And the other thing is, you know, there's a few things here. You're translating from a dead language, which is a big deal. We already mentioned that they were things meant to be spoken aloud to something red, which is going to change it.

“And then it's just something that's just thousands of years old that you have to make sense. So it's a, it's a hard job.”

Right. It's a hard not-clive for translators of the, uh, to see. That's right. That's what any said. So there, there were some, there's some, like, stand out translations over the years, but the one that everyone's talking about right now is from Emily Wilson. And she, I think that hers in 2017, okay, 2017 is how most people say that. Right.

And she basically, uh, she turned it into English heroic couplets, which is basically a, a, a, a, a, a, a,

T drinking way of saying, like exactly the kind of rhyming pairs that you hear in any modern song. Yeah. And this is the one that Christopher Nolan used specifically to adapt his version of the story on screen. Mm-hmm.

“Um, I think we should probably talk a little bit about the Homeric question because you, you teased earlier the, uh,”

If Homer was really a person and that, it's sort of one of these things where, you know, we don't have any hard facts when it comes to Homer, like everything that we know. Um, historians literary historians have surmised from reading the text like, well, is, it's written in this language. So he's probably from this place that spoke that language. Like stuff that makes sense, though. Yeah. No. There's plenty of stuff that that makes sense. It's more just like a question of like, um, Did he actually exist if he was, uh, a barred if he was a group of people. It's very similar to the, um, Shakespeare question too, for sure, an episode on.

But there, I mean, just, even though everything is a guess that we've kind of compiled from Homer, strictly from, uh, I guess his own writing. I don't think he's referenced in any other like historical text or anything like that. It's just the stuff he's writing about this kind of lines up. And they think that he was probably from Ionia, which is along the west coast of Turkey today, because the whole thing was written in Ionic, and, um, he almost certainly lived during this age that they attributed to.

And they also are, like, it's possible that he might be a known historic blind barred name, uh, Democ, Democ de kiss. Democ de kiss. Yeah. That's the hardest one I think out of this whole article. Yeah, I mean, that's a, uh, that's a character in the Odyssey that, like, a lot of spaces devoted to. So I think there are people who are like, I wonder if this is just a stand-in for him, because boy, there's a lot of stuff in there about this, you know, minor character.

Right. So like, and let me sing the praises about Democ de kiss as cod. Yeah. There's this verse after verse about that. A lot of stuff. Uh, so I also think we should talk before we break about, um, sort of a central concept, because an act to everybody.

Yeah. It's very exciting. I'm very excited.

But we should, uh, a little bit more before we get into that is sort of conceptually what the Odyssey was about in a lot of ways.

Was, uh, homecoming in hospitality, uh, which are no stos and zinna and ancient Greece. And these two things were like really big deals in ancient Greece that figured heavily in, like, their life and culture. Yeah. They're not only, um, like, things that you should do to be like a good host. They're actual, like, rules that you have to follow.

And if you don't, you're actually upsetting Zeus because this is Zeus, the king of the gods. That a real gods god, if you ask other gods. Um, this is his divine law that he's passed down.

“That's how important these, these rules for treating guests are.”

So yeah, that zinna is, uh, is a big deal. And the rules specifically are if you, um, happen up, you know, to hop through town. And you're not going to strain your store. Um, they're supposed to say, come on in. Yeah, I don't need to know anything. Here's some food. Here's some wine. Once you go, I'll draw your hot bath. Sure.

And then we'll get to why you're here. Uh, and also why you're doing this stuff, like, maybe why you're in the bathtub. I'm going to stand century out front with my sword and make sure you stay nice and safe. Yeah, you have to guarantee their protection while they're staying at your home. Yeah, they're like a, uh, heaping help and of hospitality is what you're supposed to offer a stranger according to zinna, right?

Yeah, right? For sure. That figures in so much to the story that essentially entire groups and individuals are characterized by how they treat strangers, how they act as guests, um, how they act as hosts. Like, this is a really important thread that goes through all of the Odyssey, that zinna. Then there's also no stones, right?

Yeah, homecoming. I mean, that's basically what the Odyssey is.

It's about somebody coming home. Uh, and this was a very big deal in Greek society because they were sea fares. They were, um, adventurers and wanders by sea. And so they would go out a lot and coming home was a big deal. They would be separated from their family. They would have these brutal, um, you know, sea journeys.

And so coming home was a very big deal. And so it's no surprise that these two sort of prominent things that figure in Greek culture and society at the time were sort of the two big themes of the Odyssey. Right? If you're in high school and you have a crush on somebody who likes to read the classics, mm-hmm.

“Just go up to him and say, would you like to go to no stoce with me?”

And they will, they'll be putty in your hand after that. That's great. I'd start a movie deck by the way. Just though, everyone knows it's officially happening. Awesome.

How's it going so far? Well, I read, I read chapter one and then I watched that, you know, I mentioned the Rob Delaney podcast. That he's doing with the professor. And so I'm going to do that like in lockstep. So I did that and then I watched their chapter one recap and it's helping a lot.

I like it so far. That's awesome. Yeah. Keep us posted, will you? I will.

So far so good. Okay.

“So that was, I think we covered Xenia and Nostros pretty well.”

And that's probably a pretty good place to break, right? Yeah. Everyone, hold on your hats because act two, we're going to go over these books of the Odyssey. Yeah. Yeah.

If you're service, let's all trust the text with the train. That's us. Two hundred seventy hours with zero complaining. They train under the hood. They train down in the pit.

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On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait for hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B.

I'm Julie Biniero and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first.

I'm on a mission to reclaim the word Solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I try to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smile that that's not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it.

So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita.

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Alright, I'm back with Josh. He's screwed his head back onto his body. Cartoon style. And if you don't know what Chuck's referring to, that means we edited that thing out.

Oh, perhaps you never know.

But we're going to kind of do, like I said, the close notes version of the Odyssey. Spoilers will abound if you haven't seen the film, and you really don't want to know anything about it. Then listen to this chapter, but I think it might help going in to know a little bit about the story if you really don't know anything. And I'll also point out the actors who feature and who they play. How's that?

“I think that's great. Can you also do their voices, maybe?”

No, I can't do any of those voices. You can do a great Matt Damon. How about their maples? You got it, exactly. They actually sounded like Matthew McConaughey trying to do a Matt Damon.

It's sort of dead. Alright, so let's get started Chuck. We start with book one, and actually this kind of covers books one through four. Yeah.

And we find we start the Trojan War has ended 10 years before.

And the Trojan War itself has taken 10 years. So it's been 20 years since our hero, literally the hero of the story, Odysseus. Matt Damon. Yes. Which I'm not, I'm not crazy about that casting. I'm sorry.

There's a lot of people upset about this casting. Yes. I'm not not him, like all kinds of the cast. So everybody's like Matt Damon's fine. So he's been gone for 20 years, and from what I understand,

like this was initially considered a fairly quick errand. The Trojan War started because Paris stole Helen of Troy,

“and now that I think everybody kind of set out to get her back,”

and it turned into this 10-year Trojan War. That's right. Helen of Troy is played by Lupita Nyongo in this film. Mm-hm. And Elon Musk is so mad about that. He's going to make his own AI version that he thinks is more historically accurate.

That's what he said about that. I'm waiting for its IPO. I'm sure it's going to be great. So Matt Damon is Odysseus. He's been gone for those 20 years, like you said.

He has a wife named Penelope, played by Anne Hathaway in this film. And he has a son called Talimicus, who's played by Tom Holland, who you might know more as Spider-Man. Yep. All right.

So where we pick up with them, they are living in their big house. There are many mansion. And there are 100 suitors buying for Odysseus's throne, and the hand of Penelope to Mary. Yeah.

The most villainous in the film, at least, is Antonis played by Robert Pattinson. Oh, but he does a great job. He's great. Backting is really, really good in this entire film.

But these guys are all living there. Kind of really have made themselves at home. Let's just say. And not keeping up there in the Xenia bargain, which is, I don't even know if you mentioned,

as a guest, you're also supposed to be awesome in return. Oh, yeah. We left that out. It was not just incumbent on the host. That's right.

See, they're being pretty terrible. And one of the main things they're doing as suitors, they're just like, "Oh, 100 of them have taken over Odysseus's home." They're, like, really pressing Penelope to be like, "Your husband's dead.

It's been 20 years.

“You need to choose a husband to sit on the throne next to you”

and become King of Ithaca. Who are you going to choose?"

Heming, literally, because she, she says that when she finishes,

“the funeral shroud that she's weaving for Odysseus”

is elderly father, Gary. She will make this decision, right? And then every night after she has woven all day, she goes and undoes the weaving that she did that day,

so that she will never finish.

And this, I guess the suitors are all idiots. And it's working quite well because they still haven't called on, I guess. You know, sometimes when we get emails that are like, I can't believe Josh said

that Odysseus's father's thing was Gary. Didn't he read it or do his research? I wonder if people even know you. I did too. After 18 years, you know?

So bear and desert dry. Like, get with the people. He knows it's not Gary. Chuck, I love how well you know me. Thanks, man.

I mean, you still fold me. So, I guess I shouldn't throw stones. I'm going to take issue with that. You're there's probably 98% of the time you're just like moving on. Not that you don't think it's funny.

Not that you don't get it.

You're just like, we're burning up time here. That's enough of your shenanigans. I'm just going to let that sit. All right. Thanks, Gary.

So Penelope and telemicus are, you know, it's been 20 years. So they're also, they're also losing hope and that's what they're doing. So, I think that's what they're doing.

So, I think that's what they're doing. So, I think that's what they're doing. So, I think that's what they're doing. So, I think that's what they're doing. So, I think that's what they're doing.

So, I think that's what they're doing. So, I think that's what they're doing. So, I think that's what they're doing. So, I think that's what they're doing. So, I think that's what they're doing.

So, I think that's what they're doing. I think it everything. I've read recently that people thought of her as like a neppo baby or something like that. I don't know where that's coming from.

“And I think she's really good at everything I've ever seen her.”

Who were her parents? Are they? I don't know. I'll have to go back and double check that. But I saw somebody reference it.

And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. She's great. Yeah, she's great. And she was also in Spider-Man. The movies.

So, it's a reunion of sorts. Yes, and Benny, I can't remember. He's one of the creators of uncut gyms. And Benny's acting. Yes, he's in this movie.

And he directed Robert Pattinson in Good Time. That's right. He plays Benny's acting plays Agam and Mon. Yeah. Man, look at all this.

Yeah. Go ahead, though. I'm sorry for sidetracking us so badly. Oh, that's okay. So, she says, why don't you go out and see if your dad's still alive.

He goes and meets with John Bernthal from the Walking Dead, who plays King Midaleas in Sparta. And from him learns, hey, your dad's alive.

“He's sort of being held captive, but in the best way you can be held captive on Calipso's island.”

And that's where book five picks up. Right. Calipso is a nymph.

A goddess nymph, who is basically turned Odysseus into a sex toy.

After he washed up on her island after a shipwreck, which will come to later. That's another cool thing about the Odyssey. It's not completely linear. It actually has been around. There's different, like this entire part we're talking about is a flashback as we'll see.

This starting with book five, yeah. Yes. Thank you. And so Calipso falls in love with Odysseus. And she's like, don't forget, I'm a goddess nymph, not just a nymph.

So I can make you stay here. And she does. She holds him captive there. I think something like seven years. And then finally, Athena, who is really chosen Odysseus,

like one of her favorite humans, and really intervenes on his behalf throughout this whole, I guess, Odyssey. She goes to Zeus and is like, you got to get this guy out of Calipso's clutches. And Zeus is like, sure, I'll see what I can do. That's right.

Calipso, by the way, is played by Charlize Theron. So again, he was being held captive as a sex slave for seven years to Charlize Theron. And still wants to leave. He's like my God. It's exhausted.

So he is resumed his journey home to Ithaca. He leaves on a raft. Poseidon is a real jerk throughout this whole story. Really doesn't like Odysseus. So he destroys.

Who plays Poseidon? No one plays Zeus or Poseidon in this. Oh, there they see G.I. No, no, no. He bites your tongue.

He uses very little CGI. Yeah, I heard it's all practical effects. But I don't understand what you mean. They're just off screen. They're not in the movie.

Okay. They're just referenced.

Like Poseidon really did me dirty. Yeah. Okay.

“So he Poseidon wrecks the raft as punishment.”

Because he blinded his son, which was a cyclops. And we'll get to that in a minute. Because that's coming by way of flashback. A little bit later. And Odysseus is shipwrecked once again and taken in by the, I guess, the Fatiins.

And they are showing some theory, Xenia. They are like great host to him. Say, come on into the royal court. Here's everything you need in the way of food and wine and protection. Right.

And the reason we said that book five starts as a flashback. Because Odysseus is being really well taken care of by the Fatiins and the Fatiins king. I guess one night while they're feasting says, hey, man. Tell us your story, what's going on with you, buddy.

And Odysseus basically tells the story of the Odyssey.

Everything he's been through up to that point. And this is kind of, I mean, this is the part where everybody's like, When they talk about the Odyssey, this is the stuff they're talking about, where he's recounting his adventures in flashback to the Fatiins. That's right.

And this is the real flashback.

“I guess, I mean, we sort of misspoke earlier.”

But I think everyone gets it, right? Sure. Okay, great. This is the part where Matt Damon goes, Dude, dude, dude, dude, dude.

Right. So as soon as Odysseus leaves with his big fleet of ships, there are about 600 soldiers. They're all headed home from the war at Troy once again. Athena sends some storms that way, beer the ship's off course.

Athena is mad at this point about war crimes that they committed in the battles when they conquered Troy. Yeah. And they landed the, initially at the land of the lotus eaters, which are, you know, they're eating lotus.

So they're very blissful.

And you know, they're basically sort of doing drugs.

Yeah. And Odysseus's screw is like, this place is awesome. Can we stay here? Yeah, I was curious what that's an allegory for. What drug or whatever.

Whatever. You know? I mean, I guess it was lotus at the time, right? I guess, but I've tried lotus and it doesn't get you messed up. Oh, okay.

But yes, this is what these people were doing. And Odysseus's crew was like, I'm not sure we need to keep going back home. Like, this is pretty great. These lotus are amazing. The lotus eaters are great people.

Let's just stay here. Odysseus has to drag every single one of his men. All 600 of them back to their ships where he ties them up until he finally gets the last one. And it is able to sail again from the land of the lotus eaters. That is far and away the best experience that these guys have and the Odyssey as a whole.

Because the next thing that happens to them is actually the turning point that really brings on everything else. All of their misfortune, they seem to have started and then Odysseus really drives at home on the island of the Cyclops. That's right. Obviously one eyed beasts, cannibalistic even. And they're end up trapped in a cave there.

We mentioned Poseidon's son is the Cyclops that's polyphemous. And he's just eating these guys. If you see the movie, this is an actual puppet.

It is not CGI, which is incredible.

Oh, really? Amazing. Yeah. And Odysseus blinds polyphemous to get everyone out of there out of the cave. And they are able to flee the Cyclops.

And then suffer another attack by a tribe of giant cannibals called... The Lacedragonians. Yeah, nice work. So I just want to go back to... Is it polyphemous or polyphemous?

Polyphemous? I would say polyphemous. Okay. So like you said, he's a son of Poseidon. I read that Odysseus and his men came on to the island of the Cyclops and just started eating all of

polyphemous's sheep. And like basically made terrible guests of themselves. Is that not correct? Well, that I don't know if that's in the movie. I can't remember.

Okay. But either way, I read that it wasn't just completely one-sided that polyphemous was wrong first. At any rate, after they escaped of Lacedragonians, this is another tribe of giants.

“But I believe they're more human-like, right?”

They're not in the movie either. Okay. Well, I think I know about the Odyssey. I know from a little research and then seeing them, maybe. Okay.

Gotcha. So in the book, the Lacedragonians, they come right after the Cyclops. And they are another tribe of giant canables. But from what I saw, they're more human-like, like soldiers, but giant. They eat a bunch of guys.

And after that, there's the shipwreck. And the reason why there's the shipwreck is because polyphemous, son of Poseidon, praise

Odysseus is junk up. That's right. And so they end up on the island of Cersei. He was a goddess sort of in Chandra's sort of portrayed like a sort of witch-like. Yeah.

And she falls in love with Odysseus. She turns the guys, his dudes into pigs. And Odysseus gets a little help from the gods and forces her to turn them back into men. So they can get on with stuff. Yeah, I saw a red that was like the coolest, most disturbing scene in the whole movie.

Is that right? Damien. No, no. It was great. Okay.

So Odysseus ends up getting kind of hooked up by Cersei, who basically says head onto the land of the dead,

“because you're going to get a lot of an important valuable information.”

There he meets Agamemnon there, who was killed in the Iliad. And he meets his mom there, which is nice. And then, most importantly, he meets Tyrecia, who is a prophet of Apollo, who, as a side note, became a woman for seven years, kind of interesting. And then Tyrecia basically says, you really need to make an offer to Poseidon.

Some sort of sacrifice or something, because he's really mad that you blinded polyphemous his son, the Cyclops, and one other thing. This is very important. Do not let anyone eat the sun God's sacred cattle on the island of Helios. You're going to end up on Helios, by the way.

I'm a prophet, so I know. Yeah. So he says, all right, check. Do not eat sacred cattle. Got it.

So before going onto Ithaca Odysseus goes back to Cersei's island, she's like, I'm going to hook you up even further. Here's some beeswax, because you're not going to want to hear that siren song. Sure.

“I'll tell you guys, you need to steer towards Cilla, because as we'll see,”

there's a very narrow sort of passage that's very fraught. Yeah. And she says, go towards Cilla, and not, not corribous, because that's the bad way. And also, by the way, I don't know if anyone's mentioned this, but man, do not eat any of that guy's cattle.

So now the second person to mention this, which suggests,

strongly that they are definitely going to eat the cattle. Yeah. Sure. So after leaving Cersei's island and setting sail, remember, every time they set sail, they're going toward home,

toward Ithaca, and they just keep getting delayed and shipwrecked. And Poseidon's really messing with them as per polyphemous as request. The next challenge that they go to is the sirens, which is why Cersei's, like you said, gave Odysseus earwax. And Odysseus is like, I gotta see what all this is about.

So he gives the earwax to all of his men and says, "Lash me to the mast. I want to hear it, but no matter what I say, while I'm under the spell of the siren song, do not untie me."

Yeah.

And apparently it works out pretty great.

Yeah. He makes it through that. They all survive. And then they reach that straight that Cersei had warmed him about, which has monsters on both sides that's Cilla

and Cribbdis. On the Cilla side, you got a six-headed beast who is going to eat you. On the Cribbdis side, you're going to encounter some massive whirlpools that will destroy your ship like it's going down a toilet.

And so Odysseus is like, alright, she said to steer, to avoid the whirlpool and steal toward that monster toward Cilla. And they do that, and the monster eats a lot of those guys, but Odysseus managed to escape with all,

“but I think like six guys that get eaten.”

Right, which is a pretty good trade-up. It's like a utilitarian lesser of two evils. Right, lose the whole ship to the whirlpool, or lose six guys to Cilla. It's a pretty smart move, honestly.

And if you're like, wow, he really didn't have a good option. That's because cop between Cilla and Cribbdis is the original version of "Cob Between a Rock and a Hard Place." That's where that came from. That's right.

So they eventually landed at Helios, the Sacred Cattle, or everywhere. They've gotten the two warnings by now. And of course, like Josh said, the Odysseus men eat that cattle pretty quickly. And more divine punishment is wrought upon them.

And Zeus, because Helios is like, you got to do something here. Zeus destroys the ship when it departs the island. And at this point now, Odysseus is the only one still living, and he washes a shore to meet Calipso. And that is where the flashback ends.

Right. And then so let's go take a break. And we're going to come back and wrap up the Odyssey and talk a little more about what it means for everybody. All right. We'll be right back.

Summer means wide open spaces in a whole lot of extra miles.

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or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita. On the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Ready to stop, free the judge,

one chance, stop your show again. Okay, Chuck, now we're at the last 12 books, or about his homecoming, his no-stose, which shares the route with nostalgia. And like you said, the Facyans are excellent hosts,

so they get them directly too with the cup. Finally, get them home, but his homecoming is not just him showing up and everything's great. His kingdom is fallen to shreds in the 20 years that he's been gone.

Penelope's been doing everything she can to hold it all together, but she can only do so much. So he's got to disguise himself, which he does as a beggar to kind of get the lay of the land to figure out how to put things right again.

That's right. So in disguise, only his old dog and his childhood nurse, played by John Lequizamo, really recognized him,

but he doesn't sell him out he keeps it a secret. And he is being mistreated at the palace

“by the suitors, of course, who I think we've established”

a big jerks to Lymecus returns from his journey. And he's like, "All right, this is my son." He's a grown-up spider-man now, and when I left him, he was just a little kid. And so I got to at least meet this guy

and reveal myself to him. And he does that. So he reveals himself to his son, at least. He does. And his son's like, "Great.

Let's figure out how to get the house back." And your kingdom and everything. So they get together and start planning how to get everything back. Meanwhile, Penelope's finally like, "Okay, my husband is dead."

And I'm going to hold a contest for all of you suitors. Whoever can shoot an arrow through 12 ax heads in a row, which only Odysseus has been able to do, whoever can do that, I will marry. And so they hold a contest, or she does,

and every single one of the hundred suitors misses. Can't do it. Then Odysseus is the bigger. Is like, "Can I have my try?" And she allows it. And he successfully shoots the arrow through the 12 ax heads.

And she knows that that's Odysseus, but she still has a test for him. That's right. Well, before that, though, the big part of that is being able to string that bow,

because apparently it's just some bow that's so powerful

that no one has ever been able to even string it.

So Odysseus, of course, once he strings that thing, everyone's like, "Oh, is that the dude?" Okay. And then the shooting the arrow through is almost like the cherry on top.

Gotcha. Okay. Yeah. And then, of course, the suitors are like, "Well, if they suspect who he is, or now they know who he is,

a huge battle takes place with Odysseus and telemicus vanquishing is probably the best word for it. All hundred suitors, right? And I'm sure it's very satisfying to see them. I'll get there, do you?

Yeah, they get there, do. And after the battle, Penelope, who is at this point, she's like, "I think that might be my guy."

Like, first of all, he looks just like him, right?

And second of all, he could string that bow, and no one else could. And then he made that shot. So it's just one of those things

“where you have to suspend disbelief a little bit.”

It's an ancient text. You know, because you would think as soon as her husband walks through the door, he'd be like, "Honey, I'm home." And she's like, "Oh my God, it's you."

Sure. But she suspects that it's him and confirms it in this way. In front of Odysseus, she's asked for a servant to move their marital bed.

Like, "Hey, can you move this over here? I'm doing a little redecorating." And Odysseus knows he was like, "You can't move that thing." I carved that bed from a still live olive tree. So that thing is still like literally rooted

to the ground. And I know that it can't be moved. And she's like, "It is him." Yeah. And so they get back together.

It's very sweet, I'm sure. Their telemicus is there. Everything's going really great. Then a civil war breaks out among the suitors' families,

“who are many of them are ready to avenge the death”

of their family members. And before things can get really out of hand, Athena, who's also the goddess of war in addition to wisdom steps in and says, "Stop this war."

That's enough war for now. And everybody lays down their arms

and Odysseus is finally home

and things are back to normal. It's like the end of a Brady bunch episode. Everything's just back to normal. That's right. Except Kazan Oliver's there.

So everyone's kind of wondering where he came from. So we should probably talk a little bit more about just the history. Because I wondered after I saw it. Because again, I hadn't studied this.

So I didn't know a lot about it. I was like, "What about was any of this true? Was there a sort of stand-in for Odysseus and was there even a Trojan war and all this stuff?" And it turns out like probably not, right?

Well, they do think that there was probably a Trojan war. They do think that they've kind of identified Troy. It's a town that's called his Arlic. There's a mountain nearby called that. He's Arlic.

And they're like, "We're pretty sure this is the actual Troy." That was originally discovered in the 19th century by Heinrich Schleeman. And it shows evidence of having been burned and rebuilt time after time after time.

But there's one lever, or layer, layer seven, that they're like this coincides with Homer's time. And they found some things like they found a pile of rocks that they think is slingshot ammunition outside of the city and they're like evidence of war.

So their historian seemed to think that this is probably Troy. And it conceivably gives some backup to the idea that there was a Trojan war and did take place during Homer's time. Right. Whether or not there was a Trojan horse.

There have been some archaeological finds that were pre-auticy that depicted men climbing out of a giant wheel horse. So you might think, like, boom, of course there was. Yeah. But a lot of people think it was probably like symbolic

or maybe a metaphor that Homer adapted. There are definitely routes and paths that they sail that are historically accurate throughout the Mediterranean sea. Right. Although they don't know like the exact path and if that's like a real thing.

But they think that a lot of the stuff like the monsters may be, again, symbolic about sea-faring things

that you had to navigate around, basically.

Like, Silla and Corribedus are the opposing currents of the Strait of Messina or the Syrians or maybe the Sholes along the Mediterranean that are dangerous. Right. Somebody pointed to Mount Etna on Sicily as the Cyclops,

one-eyed Cyclops, which was really destructive. Sure it does. Seems like a stretch to me. But the idea that these are metaphors for navigating conditions

“that you have to look out for makes a lot of sense”

because these stories were told by sea-faring people. So that definitely holds a lot of weight for sure. Yeah. So my initial question is like, why is this thing still interesting to people?

And it's, you know, it's because of the story. Like, it is a truly timeless story because and it has a lot of universal appeal because it's about homecoming and everyone can identify with that kind of thing at one point. You know, a hero's struggle.

Like, that's still a thing.

And, you know, almost every movie. You know, there's coming a badge. There's regret. There's adventure. There's family.

There's good guys and bad guys. It's like a lot of just the tenets of great movie-making are just kind of right there in black and white or, I guess, papyrus and whatever color they printed ink with.

Right. And I think it also goes to show. Like, it touches on values that are so universal but at least, you know, to Western eyes and ears, that we still hold those same values today.

They still make sense to us. They don't seem totally foreign. Yeah. Exactly. What else do you got?

Anything else? Yeah. I mean, there's been adaptations over the years. Beyond this movie, obviously. 1922, the novel Ulysses by James Joyce,

was a big one because Ulysses is the Latin version of Odysseus.

“And that's what he's writing about in that.”

There was a great novel. I haven't read yet, but I want to Margaret Atwood in 2005, wrote a novel called The Penelope Ed. The Penelope Ed? The Penelope Ed, I guess.

Yeah, like the Illyid and Penelope. It's Penelope. She combined those two because it's the Odyssey told from Penelope's point of view. Yeah. That's going to cool.

And then, oh, brother, where are thou? Is obviously an allegory for the Odyssey?

I've never noticed it before.

I've heard that ever since the movie came out and I've never-- I still didn't ever notice it. But I wonder now if I went back and watched it if I would get it. I think so. I mean, it opens with a quote from Homer on screen.

So they clearly tell you what this is. Right. Up front and George Clooney's character's name, Ulysses, which is, again, the Latin version of Odysseus. Okay.

It's their journey home. Sure. Very, you know, sort of plainly.

“Penelope and the movie, his wife's name is Penny, Holly Hunter.”

Okay. There are suitors trying to take her hand that he has to fight. Stay out of world worths. Exactly. There's a blind profit.

That is, you know, there's just a blind profit in the movie.

Just like a blind sear. Right. The Cyclops is Big Dan Tieg, the John Goodman's character. Why is he the Cyclops? Oh, he has a patch over his eye.

That's right. I forgot. Yeah. So he's a Bible salesman. The Syrians are, you know, like very clearly in there.

They're like literally singing at the creek and like they're under their trance. Uh, Cersei and the pigs is more like the toad. They told us you was a toad. Yeah.

So it turns John to turn to a toad instead of a swine in this case. Okay. All right. I guess I'm convinced now. Yeah.

And there's also like a Poseidon's wrath is in there. Uh, there's the song, the suitors and the song when they see man of constant sorrow. It's like it's very kind of directly taken from the Odyssey and only the way that the colon brothers could do something like that.

They're great. They're so great. There's a sequel to right. To the over other where are they? No, to the Odyssey.

Yeah. The telegeny, which is about Odysseus's other son that's not mentioned in the Odyssey, but it's it's supposed to be that he had a son with Cersei's on that island. And they produce the son telegeness and telegeness is not quite as loyal to

his father's telemic is is because he goes home and kills Odysseus and he Mary's Penelope. Telemic is just shrugs and says, okay, well, I guess all Mary's Cersei's to get back at you and they all become immortal. That's right.

They believe it was written by a Greek poet named Yugamon of Syrin. The funny thing about this one is it was actually lost to history. So what we know about the telegeny has his references from other writings about it. So maybe one day if the Odyssey is ever truly lost to history,

that it will listen to this podcast. Oh, yeah. To write the next version. Man, that was amazing. That's it for the Odyssey.

We could turn this into a 20 part series if we wanted to, but we don't. And if you're like, I really like the movie. I really like this episode. There's so much to read about interpreting the Odyssey. That's just super fascinating.

So go forth and multiply your awareness of the Odyssey.

“And then the meantime, everybody, I think it's time for”

Listener Mail. This is about rope. Hey guys, long time listener, I love the rope episode. And I especially enjoyed the history of rope making the explanation of how something. So seemingly simple is actually a pretty ingenious piece of technology. I do think you guys missed a cool opportunity, though.

To talk about rope as a transformative lifting technology.

While sailing ships were undoubtedly critical to connecting the world rope,

especially combined with pulleys.

“It's what allowed us to turn human and animal muscle into something enormously more useful.”

Think about how much of ancient civilization depends on moving very heavy things upward. Simple city walls, aqueducts, bridges, you name it. Rope didn't just rig the ships and build civilizations. Help build the civilizations themselves. Anyway, great episode, guys.

Thanks for making me spend the rest of the day thinking about rope. Not something I expected to do that is from Jonathan. Thanks a lot, Jonathan. You make a great case.

Just like you did chuck with a comparing no brother worth, though, and the Odyssey.

Okay.

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Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. [Music] On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman.

I can wait for hours for the next bus, or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I choose option B. I'm Julie Pignero, and I travel by myself because it's a rare space

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