LakerMania, NBA Expansion, WBC Lessons, and MBJ’s Moment With Billy Gil and Wesley Morris

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The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by Sam's club. We're also brought to you by the ringer podcast network. We're, I put up two episodes of the three watchables this week. We did to live in Diane L.A. on Monday. And then we did a special mail bag on Wednesday night.

That was a really good one. We did it in honor of CR Month, Chris Ryan and Craig Horlebeck. We're on the mail bag. So if you missed it, go check it out over the weekend. Lots going on in this podcast.

I deliberately waited until tonight Thursday night, because I wanted to watch March madness,

“but there was also some NBA games I wanted to see.”

Charlotte Miami, San Antonio Phoenix, and the Red Hot Lakers in Miami. And it turned out to be a good idea, because a lot of stuff happened. So we're in talk basketball at the top.

Then Billy Gill is coming in to talk about the world baseball classic and what we learned of what we liked and what we didn't like. And then last but not least, our old friend Wesley Morris, we are going to talk about not just the Oscars, but the year in movies in 2025,

and it might be Jordan and a whole bunch of things. So we have basketball, baseball, movies, it's all next. Let's take a break. Pearl Jam and then I'm going to talk basketball. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by Sam's Club.

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A membership is subject to qualifications. Visit Sam's Club.com/yes and for details. All right, so I'm taping this top part of the podcast Thursday night Pacific Time. We just watched a lot of NBA March madness. March madness was really fun.

We had a North Carolina terrible loss for them. We had CNA do trying to do the 1116 thing against Duke. Had a couple other good games. We've lost a couple top lottery picks now. We lost Caleb Wilson already in the North Carolina lost and then sadly we lost AJ.

He was really good today as well. But NBA, so initially I was going to do this gimmick.

Ten things I'm watching heading into the last basically 12 13 games this season.

And the top thing was are the lakers for real question mark. And then the lakers go into Miami. They're down in the in the second quarter. And it just looks like I'm in third game in four nights. They won these two in Houston.

Looks like they're luggage in this game. This is probably a throwaway game. They got in late the night before. And then Luca just goes to another level. Luca ends up with 60 points, Luca, let's see in in March after going 29 and 37, then he

goes 40 31, 38, 34, 36, 43, 39, 37, 37 and then 60 tonight. And look, his stats have been basically around the same for the last couple of years. But it's different when you're watching them. There's a joy and a swagger that he has back. I know he has some some personal stuff going on.

And maybe he's channeling it to the basketball, whatever is happening. He's locked in. He looks great. And there's so much going on with this laker seam.

I hate talking about it because like when I was at ESPN, they would always be like lead

with the lakers, lead with the lakers, no matter what's happening. I thought this laker's team had no chance to do anything. It's basically a three-man team with a bunch of role players. The guys that make sense together, just watching Luca, Reeves, and LeBron all together. It just didn't fit and then something has shifted.

And I've watched their last four games, and tentally including both Houston games, and then this Miami game. The two Houston games are really impressive because they had back to backs in Houston. And you'd normally when that happens, you usually split one of them, either you're there,

And it's just like it's always a disadvantage to the road team.

So the game will last night, which was televised, and it just seemed as Shen Goon was back, and it just seemed like the class, "All right, the lakers already got one, Houston win this one." And last five minutes, I felt watching it in real time. It was like something clicked in my head with the lakers, we were like, "Shit." And these, 'cause I don't like the lakers, as you know, you're watching going, "Shit."

Last five minutes, they have Luca, this is bad, this is bad for the other team. So the lakers have turned this team as long as they can keep it close. For the first 43 minutes, and they have that last five. Now all of a sudden, they have this incredible offensive pair. They have a team that makes a lot more sense around them than it did even three weeks ago.

And you just start to feel like they're going to pull out some of these games,

“or is it team like Houston, who's been bad in crunch time, right?”

No point guard, toilet ball offense, Eme Doke, it looks like he's in a half coma. And you feel like something bad is going to happen with them. You feel the opposite as you're watching the lakers. So what changed? First of all, I think JJ Reddick has to get credit for a lot of this, because you're in this conundrum with your team, where you have this generational offensive pair playing

alongside a guy who wants a new contract, Austin Reeves, who's a really good offensive pair, who potentially be the lead offensive guy on some teams. And then LeBron, one of the greatest parts of all time, not totally willing to accept a super huge role change, which you could feel.

There was a little, little push and pull that was always like, all right, now it's my turn,

and LeBron doing some of the old school stuff. Something is flipped. And I don't know what happened with the communication between the coaches and LeBron. I don't know LeBron, one of the smartest

“basketball players we've ever had. Maybe his super computer brain figured it out.”

He's embraced this different version of himself. And we've seen this version in the past like there was like a not as there was a more offensive version of it in the heat in the middle years, especially that great season when I had the 27 game winning streak when it seemed like he was going to try to shoot 60% for the whole year. And he just like, they didn't have a high use of drape, but whenever they needed them, he could make a play. And he was just so additive everywhere,

and he was rebounding playing defense. And he's kind of moved toward that version a little bit more. Where he doesn't need the ball at, he's figuring out how to affect it when he's off the ball. And then they're doing all these little cheap plays, like he'll take off sometimes, like these in these long passes from eight in a Luca, if the defense is sleeping and they move up, or he'll be like kind of hanging out on the side, which he did in the rocket's game, it was great.

The ramp fell asleep, LeBron stuck in and then cut hard to the basket, Luca gave him a lab. All of a sudden this team makes sense as you're watching it. And it makes sense because

LeBron's embraced, I'm the third best guy in this team. I'm going to have to just figure out how to

affect the game. I don't know what it means, big picture. We talked about this a little on Sunday, and a little bit on Tuesday on the pod, just like the Lakers definitely looked different,

“but what's what's the ceiling? Are they the fourth best team in the West was about conversation?”

But the more you watch Denver, and just something's off with them. And I don't know whether it's like a mild coaching thing, or they just haven't been healthy altogether long enough for what's going on, but all these games they're losing in the last four minutes are like the opposite of the Lakers. They've had 10 horrible losses, which really shouldn't happen when we have Joker. So I don't know, I don't think the Lakers have a chance in hell against San Antonio or OKC. But at the same time,

I went to see San Antonio Monday night, and there's a young team. He saw it in the Phoenix game tonight. You can play junk defenses at them, do weird things, let Wemby score, try to take out everybody else there. All the stuff they're going to try to have to figure out in real time. And Fox is the only major guy they have, who has actually been in real situations offensively. Right? Guys like Castle, the sound like either those guys haven't played in big games or there's

young, Dylan Harper keep going. And I do feel like if it was San Antonio Lakers, which it wouldn't be until round two, because the Lakers are up in the three seed, it would be a fascinating youth first experience series. But just big picture with the Lakers, I do think it's real. I don't think they're at the level of San Antonio, OKC, and maybe they're not even bossed. I'm going to take it back. But that next here at Teams, I pick it a playoff series because they went 4 or 7,

they go 4 and 3 against anybody else. Maybe is LeBron going to stay committed to this. It sure seems like he seems re-energized. And then we talked about this a few weeks ago on the pod about Luca for the point he's at in his career like why hasn't he had more high MVP finishes.

that Denver has been aeropointing sideways or aeropointing down for three months. I mean, the basically been a 500 team since mid December. There's a case now for Luca to be above him

“in above Joker in the MVP race. And I think if I was doing it now, I would have SGA1,”

I would have Wemby 2. And I think Luca versus Joker is a real argument now. And it's funny because

Joker had this historical run to start the season. The first two months he was incredible.

Wemby's had a really, really great two-way run the last couple months. And Shay has moved into this Jordan Kobe game-finisher level. So it's not like all three of them have been great candidates. But what Luca has done offensively and how they built this team around. Another chance to win like 54 or 55 games, which is nuts. Like eight, and you don't know what you're getting from him tonight. Marcus Smart is just going to go two for nine every game,

two for seven, three for nine, two for six. Teams are just going to leave him open down the stretch as a matter. They don't really have a bench. And yet they're going to win 54 or 55. So Luca's

doing his job. And he, he, I had him somewhere first, second team kind of on that bubble with a

“couple of other guys. He's clear first team though. I think we know who four of the first team”

guys are of Cape King come back and get enough games. But Tans are my own question from the beginning. I do think this lake is thing is real. There's a spirit to them. There's a swagger and a competitiveness that you can see when you watch it. They seem aligned. Everybody seems to know what their role is and what they're trying to do. And I think JJ's done a really good job. So on beyond monitoring at this point, I just, I, I assume this is what we're going to see from

them the rest of the year. When be on the spurs had a really important game tonight. And he's, I think they're 22 and they're last 22. They're still a very, very stealth case for him for MVP if they can pass OKC. But they came back from a big deficit. Phoenix played really well. It was what? It's Phoenix has good games against, like they played really well against Boston Monday and I, too, they're really well coached. They're really good at kind of making you do things you

don't want to do and attacking you in unconventional ways. And today they were just throwing a junk defense at San Antonio and seeing if they could handle it. And they couldn't for most of the game. And then near the end, they come back, make a couple plays. Phoenix missed two free throws. Then when be able to ball last 10 seconds, made the MVP jumper to win the game. And it was interesting watching the reaction after, crowds chanting MVP, they do this thing where they bat in the drum,

they made the playoffs for the first time in a couple years. So they made a big deal about that.

The crowds chanting MVP, they interviewed him after the game, his teammates are chanting MVP. He's like already beloved there. And I just thought it was kind of a moment for him where it was like, this is real. We are a really good team. We just beat another playoff team at home. Our guy came through in a real way. I said on Tuesday, he's the best for us on personal year. I don't know if that means he's the best for in the league. But his impact on defense played a play quarter quarter is

similar to the impact SGA has offensively in Joker as offensively. And then you think the stuff he can do offensively, there's a case. So just big big big picture where the Celtics have been rejuvenated with Tatum and just looked like they're the best team in the East, whether they can keep it going, we'll see it. Okay, see, going for back to back. And we know in their healthy, that's going to be the team to beat. San Antonio, as this precocious are the 90 bulls of the 91 bulls,

we'll see Denver as the, I don't want to play that team, but maybe I do better in team with, you know, one of the best players of the century. And then the Lakers, who were in that class with the next in the calves as, and now the pistons, because we don't know

“it's going to have with Kate of like, I think that's a contender, but I want to see more.”

And I can't believe the Lakers are in that class, but I think they are definitely in that second tier. And I think the spurs are in that first tier with OKC. And I think I think Boston's kind of in between that first and second tier. But what we've seen with Tatum, it's been great. All right, a couple more things really quick. The honest situation is just super weird. Probably talk about a more with, with Zach on Sunday, but this has been a soap opera, basically, since the summer,

the trade request, not a trade request. No, I want to stay. Do I want to get traded? No, I want to commit now. And just trying to read the T leaves of this. And now it's gotten to the point where they want to shut it down. They have a chance to get a top eight top nine pick. And he wants to come

The five to ten order in the East, Toronto 39 wins. They're the fifth seed. Atlantis won 11 straight. They're somehow the eight seed. Charlotte who's been a top five team for two and a half months now, at least from advanced metrics. They're still the ten seed. They're two games over 500. They absolutely killed Orlando tonight on Del Curry night, which was great. But the five through ten, how that shakes out and who you do or don't want to play. The only team

you definitely want to play is Philly because they're not going to be, they're just not going to be able to put it all together in time. I don't think I can run one. And I probably want to play Orlando and I probably want to play Miami. Atlanta, the way they look down, I'm not sure it'd be crazy about seeing them and Charlotte. I mean, you watch tonight. Like Charlotte will just be up 25 in the

beginning of the second quarter year. I'm going to happen. So I want to see how that shakes out and

also how that shakes out correspondingly with, um, can the Celtics catch the trade, which I don't think they can. Cade sadly got hurt. He's got the collapse young. They have a four game lead.

“And I think with the schedule, I was I was staring at it, trying to figure out where the Celtics”

catch them. I don't think they can. So Celtics would be the two seats, so they'll play the best play and seed, a play and team, um, and to treat with a one seed and might end up with like Charlotte with Cade coming back from this major injury. So just watch that order there. Um, Tatum trying to get back. Everything where he was as a basketball player in real time, game to game as a Celtics fan has been one of the most compelling things I've seen or a long time.

There was a game Monday night. They're playing Phoenix and it was a classic Phoenix game, right? They're up most of the game. It actually felt a couple times like Phoenix was going to win.

And Jalen was just incredible. And at some point it was just clear like Jalen's going to have to be

the off at a night and Tatum was over on the side. Like he was Sam Houser. And everything was running

“through Jalen at the top of the key. One on one stop for their son picks for him and Tatum was an”

accessory. And that's the way it should have been. And it's not a big deal. I'm not saying like, now it's it's Brown's team anything like that. It was just interesting to see him settle into that for a game. And it made me think like, I don't know, like in the Golden State game Tatum was better. But um, I don't know if it's fair to even ask him to be the guy who could be the off on situations like that. And the Celtics are to have a guy who's been one of the best

office in the league this year. And maybe that's just going to be the setup. But you can see when one guy is going for it. Then the other guy takes over for two minutes like the ceiling of this team. When you combine it with the bench and all the world powers and stuff is really, really, really high. So, um, watching him get it back in real time has been a delight. I'm so happy to just see him playing basketball again. Okay, see you at Celtics March 25 next Wednesday. That's again.

Because what we haven't seen yet is somebody just throw the kitchen sink at this guy and really try to be physical with him and take him out, take him out and maybe even throw a little semi-cheap shots. Okay, so he's your team for all that stuff. So, uh, I wanted to mention that, though, we're scoring the lottery. So there's five teams right now. Indiana's 15 wins. Washington, 15 Brooklyn, 17, Sacramento, 18 Utah, 20. You really want to be in the top three. It's 14% plus of somebody

jumps you stand in top four. Support player draft with a drop off. So just how that all shakes out.

“What kind of tanking we're going to get into as we go down the line. I think is going to be”

pretty compelling, leading us to, uh, to the, the two, the two big topics that people have been, uh, go nuts about this week. One is the on B MVP minimum game number, which kicked in again with Kade, who I think is at 60. Even though he's played 61, I think he only counts for 60. So he'd have to play five more games to be eligible for on BA. I'm a voter. I think it'd be absurd like legitimately absurd to have this season finish it. Mark down all the on BA teams for

posterity. Mark down the MVP voting and Kade's just not involved. It's like he didn't exist in the season. It's absurd. Because we're three fours of the way through the year, they're the one seed. They've completely overachieved for what they're telling us. And he is the number one, number two, number three reasons that's happening. And he's not going to make all on BA now because he got an illegitimate injury. I tweeted today, if, if Silver just said, we've dropped it from 65 to 62.

I don't think anybody would complain. Really what they should have done. It should have been 62 games or 2000 plus minutes. 2000 plus minutes is a lot. Like Maxi, Maxi's at 61 now. Let's say he doesn't

come back with a surf finger. Maxi right now is third in the league in total minutes. But he didn't

wrong. We overreacted. I wish I had made a bigger stink out of it. So you almost have to see it play out with some examples before you know how stupid it is. 2000 plus minutes, 62 games seems totally fair to me. And really like, if you go back and you look at the on BA and then the piece of the only really egregious one was the year after COVID. When in beat, I think he missed 21, played like 51 games, missed 21. It was a 72 game season. And he was playing 30 minutes a game. And I think, I think he played

like 1500 minutes something like that. He finished second MVP. And I think he was a 122nd and minutes played. That's where maybe it gets a little, it's like, all right, maybe maybe that shouldn't be eligible. Now, it was post COVID. It was a weird season. But 2000 plus minutes, 62 plus games,

“one or the other peripheral be both. And you should be eligible. I just don't like this. We're like,”

we're going to have a snapshot of the season. It's not going to capture the season. We might book her as very close to being out. Kowai is almost definitely going to be out now. Max is going to be out. And we're going to end up with at least two really goofy 13 mom B.A.Pours. We'll see what happens. But I'll be complaining. Get ready for me to complain about this a few times. All right, last thing it's tied together. Charlotte had Del Curry night tonight. And

it was really cool. Staff and Seth were there. The family was there. It was great to see the Curry as he's a beloved in Charlotte. He played, he was the first guy I think they drafted. He, he has been announcing games there forever. He's just, the Curry's a royalty in Charlotte. And the bigger thing to me, just watching it, that franchise is had a complete facelift over the last couple years, which we've talked about a couple times. They drafted well.

They changed owners. They got rid of Michael Jordan. And the hard and really good coach, they have an identity. They even have lamella ball, like really engaged. Like he was great tonight. So it can be done. It's my point. Because as we go to the last thing I wanted to quickly talk about here, because expansion, all that stuff broke on Monday. And it broke in a way that made me a little suspicious. Almost like it was being leaked that this

is going to be a possibility because they don't know whether they have the 23 votes yet or not.

They were talking about between $7 or $10 billion per team. So let's go low just for fun.

And we'll say $7.5 billion per team that's $15 billion total. And I'm going to talk about this for five years. I have, I have podcasts from 21 and 22, where I was telling you guys, let's see, I don't think it's going to be the expansion teams. So if it's $7.5 billion per team, that's $500 million cash that would go to each of the 30 teams. They do not have to share

“with the players. And that's why they want to do expansion, or at least some of the teams do,”

because it's just pure flat-out greed. They didn't make enough money from the media deal, obviously, which is some puts $6 million now. They have a chance to make another $500 million. And I've had people say to me, like, hey, Simmons, I thought you, you're the ones saying how deep the league is,

why wouldn't you want expansion? Here's what I don't want expansion. Because we have nine

teams that don't give a shit on you right now on a 30 team league. The last thing we need to do is add two more teams that don't give a shit. They either need to fix. He don't give a shit part about the 82 game season, or they need to relocate two teams and do that as an expansion. I cannot accept as somebody who loves basketball. I cannot accept adding two expansion teams and having 11 tanking teams three seasons from now instead of nine. I just don't see how that's

a good product. I don't see how that helps anybody. And the bottom line is there's 8 to 10 guys who truly matter. Those are the teams that have a chance to win the title. And everybody else is either tread and water over achieving or tanking. We don't need more of that football has figured it out. Because football, you have the quarterbacks are really the only stability for the seven eight best teams. Other than that, you have the salary cap, which is primitive. You have the

schedule and the stuff that can do with the Patriots this year at a fourth place schedule. Next year in their schedule is going to be really hard. They can keep tilting the seesaw against teams. You

“can't do it in the NBA. So to add two teams, I've just seen I'm old enough to add or remember”

when this happened a few times over the course of the league. And it always screws up. It always leads

to have that have knots in a really crazy way. And I would accept it if they put in like the right tanking rules, which they're claiming they do. I want to know what those are first before you do expansion. The other thing is, couldn't we just relocate a couple teams that aren't doing that

that are clearly have been struggling with bad ownership in the places they've been in,

“like a New Orleans, right? Like Memphis Dream and Dream on Green caught out this week because”

basically saying they don't even have like a hotel for the person to stay in. They've been small

market. They just got to their team again. And yet, the Charlotte piece of this is why you can't say like, well, basketball can't work there. Because I would have said that about Charlotte three years ago. So to me, how do you get a team like New Orleans to be confident again and properly owned and not a place where everyone in the league, whether you're a player, an agent, anybody knows that that's one of the worst situations in terms of taking clear

care of the health of players, injuries, all the injury maintenance, all that stuff, like facilities. Everybody knows about New Orleans, right? Memphis is another one that may be from a revenue standpoint

small market. They're okay owned, but is a team that should, if you're just, if we were just

doing this, let's pick 30 cities that should have an MBA team, Seattle would be picked over both of those teams. Like, let's just call it for what it is. So you really have to make the case for me that those teams can succeed before I'm ready to add other teams. And here's the other thing with Vegas. Why is Vegas a good idea? Vegas 30 is four professional teams. Vegas isn't that big of a city. Vegas young people don't, you know, party and drink and gamble the way they used to.

Every story I read is about how Vegas from a tourism standpoint, get a little dicey. They

“made it up, might have overbuilt it a little bit. Why is this like a surefire bed for expansion?”

Seattle 100%. I've been saying Seattle should have a team for 20 years ever since they stole the

team away. Vegas, I'm not sure. Like, do we aid it? We need 32 teams. And be it for adding two teams should Vegas be one of the teams. I still have real questions about this and should we just relocate or relocate? I don't know why I'm emphasizing the read. She would just relocate the franchise that would immediately trip on value or double on value, the moment it moved to Seattle. So my question is, why couldn't you at least explore that side with one of the franchises before you talked about

just adding two other teams? I don't get it. I really want to know more. So this votes coming next week. I'm not convinced they have the 23 votes, but if they do this, it's a money grab. And they can say it's like, more jobs are better. Okay, cool. This is a money grab. This is going to make the league worse. I will plant my flag in that because we are just going to have

“more teams doing all the same shit that we hate now, this tanking stuff. So the only way you can do”

expansion is if it's tied together with some real roles to make these teams actually care about competing and not being an embarrassment. Like the freaking net's the other night down 60 to 24 and half time. Like the wizards give you a baby three to bail. Like nobody wants to see this anymore. So we don't need two more teams doing this. So this is a bigger decision that they have to make they have to decide what are the 30 best cities for the NBA? Do we have 30 cities that can handle

NBA at the highest level? And if we do, maybe we can expand. But now we have to bring in all this tanking stuff to make it possible to expand from a position of strength and not a money grab. So that's my take on expansion. We're going to take a break. We're going to come back. Billy Gill is going to join us to talk about World Baseball Classic and then Wuzzy Morrison I could talk about this. That's next. This episode is brought to you by Micklobe Ultra.

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entry deadlines and prizes and details. All right. The Duke Billy Gillis here. One of our big WBC fans here at the ringer. I got into it. I enjoyed it. I don't really know the protocol, though, of rooting for your country, versus rooting for players on your favorite team. And I was battling the whole time because I was rooting for different red socks guys to do well. While I was a rooting for America, but then I was really happy for Venezuela. It was about

“the least patriotic I felt in a while. You went to some of these games. What was it like?”

It was incredible. So I've gone in past years. It's always been great. I put in bill for

credential requests. I went there as an official representative of the ringer. So I was there going on the field, taking pictures of people, making a presence known so that the baseball community knows we're in the game. We're here to cover this sport. The environment is crazy. It's great, but it's sad because the environment in that stadium is not like that for the next four years. And it won't be like that in any more of those games this year, which is disappointing.

But man, Miami can host a world baseball classic. I have a question for you. Wait, can you hold that thought? Can perform your question to me? Yeah. Is it weird to go to a place that has just a certain set, pretty depressing level of energy? And then all of a sudden you go there and that's fucking awesome. And you're like, I'm in the same place where it's basically sucks.

I'm not used to it being that great because since they built the stadium, the marlins have made the playoffs twice, but have not hosted a home playoff game because one was the weird COVID year where they were on the road. And then they switched it to like three years ago, I think, or two years ago, they made it. But it's that first runs at Wildcard Brown where like the

host city hosts all the games and it's like best of three so don't travel. So there's never

been a playoff game there. But because of the roof, it gets really loud and it's a great environment. But I'm also one that I've become accustomed to smaller crowds. I've become accustomed to the row and front of me will be empty. I can kick my feet up. So it's kind of like when it's too crowded, like it's that's nice. But like I'm ready to get back to my comfort, like I have plenty of space. I don't have to wait that long in concessions. Like I'm good not having a ton of people around me,

you know? Yeah. So I like the energy, but I got my fill. We're good with that energy for a little bit, I think. It felt festive. What was your question for me? It was great. There was live bands going

“around. I don't know how it is that like certain you have to go through security with a clear like”

bag, like in every stadium policy, right? But somehow you can go in with a trombone and you can go in with like a massive drum and you can take in all of these instruments that seemingly could be dangerous weapons. But like a purse that's like 16 inches by 16 is a no go. Like I don't understand a security works. So here's my question to you. And I, it's similar to what you were saying. And I abad American because going into the championship game, I was actively rooting for my

country to lose to Venezuela. So I bet on the Dominican and the semi-finals against US,

because I've always enjoyed the baseball players that have been very good at the Red Sox,

and I didn't really feel that patriotic about it in general. In the finals, I was like, I'm going to roof for America and this one. This would be, I want Roman Anthony do was really excited he did well in the previous game. But as it went along and it was so clear that it meant like a hundred times more to Venezuela. It was hard not to like, that's like, all right, I'm happy for these guys. This is like the greatest sports moment of their lives. It would have meant

“even like one tenth as much to America now. No, that's why Odyssey coming into the game. So I was”

like walk around as asked people like, oh, you're rooting for him. Like, yeah, I want America to win. And last time in the world baseball class of 2023, America also made it to the final. And they lost the Japan and there was a classic situation where Shohei Otani is pitching against Mike Troud. He strikes him out. They end up winning the championship. And it means so much to Japan. I wanted America to win that one. This one, America just had like not the best attitude throughout

the tournament where you had school, coming and going and then he kind of started feeling it. And then in the semi final game where they were playing the Dominican Republic, he drove back from spring training. He pitched the day before in a meaningless spring training game for the Tigers drives back that that day because he wants to be with the team. And there's like this whole article written about how he drove through a rainstorm to get there, which is like, I'm not

applauding this. Like, welcome to Florida. It rains all the time. Like, this wasn't a hurricane. Like, what are we talking about here? But we wanted to applaud him because all of a sudden it seems like between the semi final and the final America kind of figured out, like, hey, this is fun. We should try to want to win this instead of, you know, saying the wrong thing every possible chance they

Venezuela and all that. But earlier in the turn of it, they asked him about it. And he's like, I, you know, I'd rather win the Olympics than the world baseball classics. Like, buddy, like, just keep that one yourself. Just don't say that. And then there's all the players from all the different countries who are all excited and they're saying, even Kieke Hernandez, who was playing for Puerto Rico, has been the five world series. He's one, three. And he's saying winning the

“world baseball classics would be more important, which then caught the iron of Derek Geter, who”

on the broadcast, they say, like, what do you make of all these players that say they'd rather win the world baseball classic than the world series? And he's like, sounds like players that have

never made the world series. It's like, there's, there's plenty who have who are saying this. But

also, like, Derek, you're on the broadcast for the world baseball classic. Like, can we pretend to care just a little bit about this or like, also, you don't have anything to any of these broadcast, just sit out the world baseball classic. Derek, like, we're not going to miss you. It's going to be perfectly fine. So the Americans had kind of, like, not the greatest attitude throughout it. You had the situation with Cal Raleigh and Randy Rosarana, where he didn't want to shake his hand.

And then Josh Nailer, who plays for Canada, decided I want to troll Cal Raleigh and go to try to shake his hand. And then he also didn't shake his hand. And the Mariners seem to be falling apart. There was no injuries or serious injuries in this world baseball classic. But the Mariners, I don't think are going to survive the world baseball classic, even getting all of their

team back healthy because they all seem to hate each other now, even though they'll downplay

the situation. Because they had great chemistry last year. The WBC could have just completely eroded it. Yeah. I mean, Randy Rosarana told Cal Raleigh to, like, shove his handshake comment,

“like, up his ass, which is kind of like, this is going to be awkward. I think when we get back”

and managers are going to have to kind of sort that situation out. So I didn't think that a team was going to fall apart. There wasn't playing in the world baseball classic. But we have to keep an eye on the Mariners now. See what's going on. But overall, I thought great tournament. Here's another thing. By the way, Mark Terrosa might be the worst manager. I think in the history of baseball. Just bring in Miller for the 92, too. What are you doing? He throws one or two. Nobody's touching

him. Just get him in and out of him. What did you do? Did you see they were asking him about it after the game? So in in the press conference after game, they were asking, like, why didn't you bring him in? And he's like, well, I told, you know, I wanted to respect the podgers. It's like, it respect the podgers. Did you see what was happening with Venezuela? Their manager Omar Lopez had three different teams call him and say, hey, you played a semi-final game last night,

do not pitch our pictures back to back nice. Yeah. And he said, you know what? I'm going to pitch four pictures back to back nice. And you guys can deal with it. Because that's exactly what he did. Like four guys that pitch the night before. They did a good against refined with it. They did it to they did it to Whitlock on the American team where he pitched three, three times in five days. Yeah. And his last appearance in the final. So he gave up the winning run. His his his his mouth's

per hour was a little bit down. Big topic with Red Sox fans right now. What just just ready for Whitlock to be in the deal and like, June, because he pitched three and five days. So back to back. I don't even know, Whitlock's a guy on the Red Sox not to make this two MLB centric, but I have wanted to work out for your team for the past like five years. You're really good last year. Yeah. And he's really good last year. But he was going to be a starter and then they eventually moved to

and figured him out. Like in the moment. Yeah, it's not as useful to me. I'd like to when he was like a fifth starter. Yeah. No, he's a reliever going back to the team thing. Yeah. This was one of my issues rooting for America or being in the mindset of I should refer America. This is the country

I live in. Yeah. First off, the world baseball classic has not been around since like 1892,

“like this is a relatively new thing. So it can't be like we have to root for our teams. I think you”

can kind of look over the heart wants, especially in the gambling era. But I was watching like the Dominicanans and the Venezuelans, how they're just reacting to a double in the third inning. And they're they're just going crazy. They're so demonstrative. I've been the dugouts flipping out and our team was basically like, OK, guys, we got him. It felt so. It was a bear. So force and even Bryce Hartford when he hit the game tying home run in the bottom of the eighth when he's coming

around. He did like a saloon. He's like pointing at the flag. Like I don't know why it felt like force and it almost felt like angry patriotism. But when then you see like the Dominicanans and the Venezuelans are playing against each other. They're hugging each other at home play. And it's like competitive, but like they're enjoying it. We're at the American seemed like like forced suit like, well, about the prison. They weren't even like at home plate. They were kind of over on the side.

Like, all right, we'll go greet him. Yeah. Yeah. It was where the Roman Anthony, Roman Anthony is my guy, obviously. He's Red Sox. And he has the big go ahead of Homer in the game before. And it wasn't like if it had happened for the Dominicanans or the Venezuelans, it would have

It bummed me out. The American bath looks felt forced to me too. It was like, well, I see how far

“how high the Venezuelans are throwing it. Let me try to throw it higher. I think overall,”

great tournament. Have you turned on this whatsoever? Are you doing what's interesting? First of all,

weigh in, enjoy it at way more than I thought. The ratings were really good. And I'm not a ratings guy because I don't understand how the ratings just get better for everything every year. It's like a like ESPN every month. It's like, "Hi, it's blank, ever." And just it feels like you can finagle and however you want. Yeah. But anecdotally, people cared about this. People in my life cared about this. Everybody that likes sports that I know feels like they were least monitoring it.

And then the last two USA games, I feel like a lot of people in my life watched it cared. My dad really cared. He was really upset that Anthony made the last out. He was like, "I hope that's not going to be bad for him for the season." I was like, "I could be fine, Dad." Yeah. It was like,

"You'll be playing in like two weeks in real good." You know what? I really love the most was how you

vacillate emotions. I was mostly rooting for America, but when Judge made it out after Harper tied the game. And you could be like, "Alright, Judge, let's go air and finish it off." Like, part of me was like, "I hope he makes it out." Yeah. I hope it becomes a story. You want your enemies to feel, like, it's so weird because like, I don't like Ronald LaCoonia Jr. Because I'm a modelist fan and he's a brave and I find him to be very annoying. But I felt good for him. And they're crying on

the field the whole time. You mentioned the red socks. Did you see the stat where the red socks outfield? So they had like us like all of the countries that hit home run to hit the most home runs throughout the tournament. Yeah. And it's listed like the Dominican Republic hit like

“15 home runs or whatever, 12, 11, whatever it was. And then they had like the U.S. I think have like 11”

or 12. And then just boss and red socks outfielders tend to home runs in the world baseball classic. You guys are over 100. Are over 286 and a half for wins? And I think the red socks are going to be legit good. Like, I think they're plus 300 on Fandoff for the division. The teams like kind of loaded. Yeah. And as long as they don't have any picture injuries or anything weird like that. But the Anthony is the big thing. I mean, that was why his, his home or that he

hit the go ahead home. I was really glad he had that moment. Because we're kind of counting on him to have like the Drake May major jump in year two and a brave two. I thought I thought it was a good showing for them. It's weird to root for the guys on different teams that are your guys and kind of monitoring them. You end up like if it's like a parent with multiple kids on different fields that, you know, some, some, you sports. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One other thing with the world baseball

about it that I, I really liked how it's going to transfer all the stories now about how it transfers to the actual season becomes like its own cottage industry for for media coverage. Because we have fantasy baseball coming with the season starting and just how it how it swings

“your opinions either higher, low. I think it's kind of kind of entertaining. I think in 2017,”

myself and probably everyone else was watching the world baseball classic when the US won was like Marcus Truman might be the greatest pitcher in the history of major league baseball. I need to draft him in the first route. Yeah. I need to draft him right away. And then he has like classic like showman situation where he's like really good one year and then he's like not great the year that you draft him in fantasy. But yeah, people are definitely going to be drafting an an unoverdrafting

certain players based on world baseball classic reforms. I like a break is going to be one of them.

Oh, yeah, for sure. So you mentioned the ratings almost 11 million people watched a championship

game, which is crazy. I think it was up from like seven million or something. The previous championship game. It was the most watched for a baseball classic game ever. Baseball's writing this high coming off of the world series and coming off of the world baseball classic. And I'm a little bit worried that once the regular season starts and everybody goes back to their teams and you lose the excitement that the world baseball classic games had that people were going to like,

oh, like, yeah, we're back we're back to baseball now because you don't have like the playoff intensity. You don't have the world baseball classic intensity. And now it's like, okay, this is game number seven of 162 can't be like playing trumpets and bat flipping and jumping over, you know, the dugout fence every time someone hits a home run. Now we need to get back to like, you know, baseball decorum. You know, I see the point. I just think we're so loaded from a season standpoint

with good teams and huge cities with real baseball tradition players that care about in both leagues, young guys coming up, even like we mentioned the Anthony, but there's a bunch of either rookies or

baseball cards. Like you mentioned last time the Pittsburgh, the 19 year old, the rookie shortsap,

whether he who knows when he'll come up or will he be like a May 1st guy, will he come up? I don't know, but his card was like exploding during the year and it just feels like they have a lot of lot of guys. I hope they don't do the games with the with the rookies where they like wait until now they're not doing it. The red socks are going to do it. The two pictures we have. And I ended it. It's one of the worst rules that we have. They just the extra arbitration year. Yeah,

so it's so dumb. It's terrible. But like like the Dodgers going for a 3P is a real thing. Like judge who's now hitting his mid 30s, you know, and somehow became embattled coming out of this world baseball classic. I saw Mad Dog that a whole thing about it and he is fear that I enjoyed. Like he's he's a he's a real figure that people have opinions. My whole thing is like baseball needed to get back to people in your life just having arguments about different baseball things.

And I felt like we started to lose that a little bit as the sport became more and more stats

and more and more random basically. And now it feels like he talked to people like are the Dodgers

ruining baseball and half the people in my life would have like a real opinion on it. You know,

“do you think Aaron judge? Is it his fault? People have opinions on this. What about Roman Anthony?”

Could he be the next guy for Boston? There's like 30 of these now. Who's the best picture in the American league? We just have good arguments again. And I don't I I feel blessed right as we head into a massive labor short really ever strike. Well, but this is the baseball can't get out of their own way because like they're writing this momentum and they're going to mess this up at the end of the year by having a lockout like 100%. They're going to lock out and it's like why are you guys doing this?

Like why are we trying to ruin a good thing? Just kind of agreed to something figure it out

realize that you can't afford I mean they're not going to miss any time. Even if they have a lockout,

they'll figure it out so that they don't miss any game. If they miss games, it'd be the dumbest thing they could possibly do. Did you see the revenue thing where it was it was talking about the percentage at the bleaks make and they were like 21% 20% 20% and then baseball was like 2.4% because so much of the revenue is being driven by a couple of these teams, so much of the salaries, everything and clearly something's going to shift. But on the other hand, as a TV sport,

we're all worried about it. Now they're able to RSN so as that all shakes out. But it seems like from a right standpoint they're going to be good. I like the fact that Netflix got involved with the World Baseball Classic and these different non-traditional networks are trying to figure out ways to kind of grab a bite of the apple from them. So that's a good thing. It seems like a lot of people want base. So I was a little bit worried last year and like I'm not one that gets into the

TV right situation or cares that much. I'll figure out where to watch the games. But when it was announced that they were going to leave ESPN, I was like, oh, this isn't good. Like again, the Sunday night base, oh, like what's going to happen here? And then like because I'm a weird guy and I like grew up watching ESPN worth the ESPN a little bit and like know the personality, some like, what's going to happen to Tim Kirchon? I'm worried about this.

Where's Kirchon going to go? I don't want to see him. I'm going to be networked. Like I can't,

“my heart can't take that. So, and ESPN's going to have I think weekday games now,”

but then like everyone's going to have games. There's going to be games on apple. There's going to be games on Netflix. I think we do. Yeah, it's almost like a game show trying to figure out who has what game. But I think I think part of that is good though because in theory, each of the networks will be trying to make their one day a week, the most relevant game. So hopefully, then we'll get good presentations and good broadcasts from all of the networks and it's not just kind of like

mailing it in. Hey, here's like a random Wednesday night baseball game. But we also have Sunday night and Tuesday night or whatever. So like we could just throw a fourth team on here and who cares what it actually looks like. We've decided about baseball. I am, too. We've seen this happen in NBA this year with, you know, like NBC's doing that Sunday night game, right? To Rico, they're making it almost like time to go big. Yeah, they're trying to give it the NFL Sunday treatment for NBA and it

feels like a bigger game. Like it feels like they care more. They're sending that everybody there is at the game. Like the studio shows there to Rico's doing it. They have like the John Tash stuff and

“it just feels bigger, which I think what some of these places will do with baseball. I was just looking”

at the world series stuff on Fandel. The top eight teams for odds right now Dodgers, Yankees, Mariners, Metz, Philly's Red Sox, Blue Jay's Cubs. And then the ninth one is Atlanta. These are all like big teams that have tradition and like big fan bases and really good players, right? Seattle's probably the one like non-giant fan base, but they have, you know, Jay Rod, Cal Rally. I really like

is going to be a little different this year because they lost a couple guys. They've had some injuries already, but um, but they were in the world series last year. People know who they are, people know

“who Guerrero is. So I think we're in a good spot, Billy. Baseball might be back. Who knows the ringer.”

The ringer might have to figure out some sort of podcast thing. Wow. I don't know. 11 million people for the world baseball class. It could make you think like shit. There's a bad out there. Yeah, maybe there's maybe people care again. Maybe they care. All right. Billy Gill,

um, how you feeling about uh, you never gave your opinion on BAM's 83 on this podcast. So go quick.

Okay. So BAM's 83, I was in Sweden when it was going on. So it was 3 a.m. but my phone starts blowing up because like I'm in group text and they're like BAM has 72 points right now. So it's like three or four a.m. and I'm like, I wake up to these and like, well, I can't go back to sleep. So I'm trying to sign in to like my fan dual sports network, Florida subscription that I have. Yeah. Of course, because I'm in a different country. It's like then a country code this doesn't allow it. So I'm doing

the old school just following along on my phone. Oh, the big nice. Yeah, the nine seven six lines. So yes. So I'm watching like the ball move like low graphic up and down the court. And I'm like, man, they keep fouling like this is kind of crazy. What's going on here? I saw that you were kind of a defender of BAM's. Oh, I'm a full defender. Yeah. Yeah. We're a lot of people. A lot of people weren't like, yes, stop him. I'm surprised that that Eric's Bolstra did it because it seems like

with their whole like he culture stuff. Like all this seems like beneath the heat to try to do something like this. But I loved it. I mean, obviously I'm biased here because I'm from down here in South Florida. But I loved the fact that they did it. I was thinking that they might do the thing where they take a mountain like, oh, we can't pass Kobe. They're like, oh, yeah. That guy,

“like, we're going to pass right now. It was cool that that they, I think it helped that he was such a”

light guy. Yeah. He's so not that kind of player who would like chase stats and, you know, everybody was supportive of that. It seemed like the most fun random game to go to. It was like real joy in the stands. He got to like 75. They're cutting it. Like, you know, Miami is can kind of come and go as a basketball crowd. People were like, deliciously happy. This was happening. It was really fun to watch. Well, the Wizards are a crap team too. That's like what, like, stop him. Like, like, you guys can

play defense. You can like, why don't you double him? Why don't you take the ball out of his hand? Like, the first quarter, the he'd had like no starters out there except for BAM. It's like, just take him out. Let everybody else be who's, it was a disgrace. And that this was my big case was like, like, the the Wizards. Like, this is we have eight teams tanking. Now we have nine because Milwaukee's trying to tank. So it's almost one third of the league. That's a way more of a disgrace to me than

Miami being like, Bam out of Bios, a great guy, seven the night of his life. Let's see how many

points he can get. I'm never going to be offended by that. I didn't like that that so many like

players and coaches came out and like swaggy p like former players, then just like, I don't respect

“this at all. It's like, shut up. Like, no one cares what you think. Why do you have to ruin this?”

Why do you have to ruin a fun thing here? It is weird though. Like, if you look at the all-time list that then just BAM out of BIO is number two on the list. And that he's not an all-time great of all time, but he's he's not an all-time. But right, you know, I've heard people say that. And if you go to every sport, there's fucking weird things in there. There's people that have had like, you know, four home or four home or games of baseball are like, that guy had four homeers.

Yeah. And in football, same thing where like, uh, I don't know, who member of Flipper Anderson had the receiver record forever. That receiver on the ram. So it was like 330 yards receiving or whatever

it was. And it's never who you think is going to have these records. Um, I think there was some

Kobe stuff for the two. I think people just love Kobe and they kind of want they liked how it was will then Kobe and now BAMs in the middle of it. And he's not a score. But I mean, everybody loves BAM. And it was the night of his life. He had never had 42 points in a game. So I don't know. If if you like sports, it's weird that you wouldn't like that one to me. But anyway, all right, Billy Gill, good luck with the, did you do your fantasy baseball draft yet? My fantasy baseball draft is next

Tuesday. Keepers are in though. So that has been locked and we're moving forward now. We have to turn and keep our smart night. Me and my, my buddy hands shoes, my, my League of Doris partner, my L keeper League. And I can't even tell you the guru history just searching any sort of info. I can find on Joe Boyle of Tampa or Eric Lauer on the Blue Jays deciding whether we want to keep him for three dollars. Do we keep Narvaya? Is it seven as it just googling all his spring?

It's pathetic. It's always the time. How many keepers do you get to have? We have 10. So we have nine

I believe so you can, you can keep like half your team. Well, we have 40 man roster 40 man

roster, including minors and reserves. Yeah. That's insane. I got a belly of the head. You won't believe it. And it's one, it's only one league. It's only a yellow. Yeah. So you're, you're just full of like random crap players. This is why we're talking about whether we want to protect Eric Lauer for three dollars. Oh my god. That is deep. One of, so we don't, we don't do auction. We do like the rounds still. So ours is you can keep four, but it's four, you can only do

it two times. So like you can only keep them twice. Yeah. And it's four rounds higher than you drafted him. The previous year. Yeah. So I went in and I spent and, uh, Stanton got dropped last year when he was injured. So he was just out there. So I picked him up on a flyer. Just put him on my IL. And I was like, I'll play him when he comes back. But also next year, I can use him as a 20th round pick. So I was like, I'm using this for future situation.

So I had John Carlos Stanton, but then the reports are he can't open a bag of chips, which seems impossible. And I'm looking at him like, well, he has three home runs or four home runs already in the spring. So I guess the chip situation has been resolved. He didn't play in the world baseball classic. I could get him in the 20th round. But also, I know he's just going to injure himself

“because that's what he does every year. So I'm going to waste one of my keepers on him. I ended up”

not doing it. So we'll see what happens. The move is always if, if the evidence is, you're going to

really regret that some month from now. I'm kicking yourself. Maybe don't do it. I'm always done by the lack of information in this world we live in now where information is everywhere. Like Twitter, you can't search for anything on Twitter anymore. If I want to find out like Joe Boyle Tampa, give me like the last five days of tweets about him, like fucking pizza comes up. Reddit, not nearly, nobody's starting like a Joe Boyle thread, right? And then you're going to

get our new expecting. No, no. So then yours, you're Googling new stories. And it's like, oh, Joe Boyle's in that one. And it's like just this tiny little tidbit paragraph. It's just not a lot info. They don't care about like the die hards. We need a return to like the true honest to goodness

beat writers and baseball that are there in spring. But they leave their family for a month and a

half. They live in like Lakeland, Florida, wherever their team is situated. And they're like giving us all the information everyone. Now it's just a lot of dispatches three times a day different things about different places. Yeah, we don't have that anymore. Now you just go there. They're hanging out, making contacts or whatever it is, the reporters are doing there. If they're even attending the games, the managers don't even bother giving you actual honest assessments of what's going on with

the players. It's become a travesty that's going on in journalism these days, Bill. Well, fortunately, we have websites that can show us the miles per hour compared to last year and stuff like that, not that I've ever been to those maybe I have. Okay. Are you excited about ABS's debut? We didn't have it in the world baseball class. If we didn't talk about that huge controversy at the end of the U.S. Dominican Republic game, where it was clearly a ball game ends like that Dominicans are eliminated.

“That's what happened in the past five seasons. Half a foot. It ain't the same thing”

having the eating before gets soda. Like it's just a bad strike zone. And American umpire. So someone suspicious there. If he's on the take or what's going on, what's a little weird? All right, Bill ago, uh, you can you can listen slash watch to Billy on the ringer tailgate, a great show that is continued to go during the off season as well as you pop on ringer NFL from time to time and all over the place. Good to see you. Thanks for staying up with me. Hey, thanks for having me.

This segment is brought to you by the all new Audi Q3 made for the ESL. We're about to break down my NBA best in class pyramid. The guys playing well above the rest of the league. We just stayed ringer 100 actually. Um, I just turned to my votes. And I really, really battled with myself about whether I wanted to put Wemby or SGA in the top spot. And I'm not going to tell you what I did, but that top four of Wemby, SGA, Joker and Luca is about as good of a top four with everybody playing

really well at the same time that we've had in a while. So any pyramid would have to start with those four. And then you go down that next level and it's got J. Lam Brown and Donovan Mitchell

“and Kate Cunningham and so on and so on. But I think that would be the top four. And”

it's like the Audi Q3. Those guys that top four I mentioned, they're delivering a level of performance and refinement that puts them in a category of their own. The other fun thing about that four, all of them are so different, right? SGA's he's the guard. Luca, I've no idea what position he is. Joker is like a center, but he's also a point guard and then Wemby is just one of the freaks all time that we've had in the NBA. Those guys do the NBA best in class. They show up and

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Dr. Edgar Vitales-Musley, up then 16g for 0.2€, 22, all the. Good, it's for all. Alright, so coming up with my old friend Wesi Morris, we used to work together at Grainland. He has some podcast called Canemba for the New York Times and we had about to talk about the

Oscars after it happened. So we're coming in right as we went for too long so I cut the first

like seven eight minutes and we went right into when we started talking about Wembyl after another versus center. So here that is right now. I mean, just it's been a long time. It's been 30 years of having this man in our lives and wanting the institutions to acknowledge how great he is at his job. Well, the origins of it could have happened for him and with with there will be blood and he just went against the buzz saw with the country for oh man. Yeah. So the 2008 Oscars

“and sometimes that happens, right? Like center is I think at another year could have could have”

won all the major ones that they were up for. Well, I think that's going to be an except for best actress. That's just point about seventy seventy five, right? I mean, seventy five, the year the movie year for nineteen seventy five at the night at the seventy six academy award. And you know, those five movies, Barry Lyndon, Jaws, dog day afternoon, one flew over the Kuku's nest and National Nashville. I mean, come on and like for those movies are going to lose. And you know,

historically I watch one flew over the Kuku's nest about a year ago. Yeah. And you know, the least I mean, the least impressive of the five and saying that like one flew over the Kuku's nest is fleece to present the movie. Those five movies is a wild thing to say. And yet like that is the one that is perhaps least discussed. I guess like in these last 50 years, it's the one that's

“come up the least often at least in my life. But Milish Forman, he's one of my, I love him. I mean,”

every single movie he made pretty much, especially the Hollywood ones are, you know, chefs kiss. Well, we talk about, uh, this happens in sports too. Sometimes sometimes a category is loaded, sometimes you have an MVP like the NBA and it's like holy shit. A lot of, not a guy's this year. But then we also talk about distance, which is something we've been talking about in this podcast forever, like how we remember it five years from now. Well, we think what we think the right movie one

will we think the right director one and and something like that. This one because it was one battle versus sinners for months and months. And then I felt like Marty Supreme was going to nudge some

some stuff in there because basically because it came out last, um, this something Sean had

talked about about just how late the Oscars were this year. By the time we actually had it, it did feel like a lot of time since all of these movies came out, right? And it probably hurt shallowly the most. But, um, but I do wonder five years from now what we're, what we're going to

“think should one because I think there's people really strongly in both camps. You could feel it”

in the audience for the Oscars. Like it felt like sinners was by far the most popular movie in the room. But that doesn't mean anything. Yeah, every nominee, like, you know, from the the craft folks to, you know, Michael B. Jordan and Ryan Coogler in the movie itself, you could feel, I mean, even that production number, right, when they did, um, I lied to you on this part of the two songs that got performed during the show, you could feel the energy in that room for that performance.

And it's not just because you had people like there were too many great musicians, right, Rafael Sedique and Brittany Howard and Ryan and Gitton and Shaboozi, I'm not putting him in the great musician class yet, but like he's good at a job. Um, you know, Craig Stone, Kingfish, Ingram was up there. Buddy guy didn't even play. He just stood around. Right. It just was, it was, it was extremely impressive just to have those people up there, kind of like,

contributing five seconds of music to this, you know, 90 second operation, but you could feel

in the room that those people were at a, at a concert, right, and they were reacting like they were seeing, you know, the people they were seeing on stage on stage for free. Um, so yeah, I don't, I mean, five, 10, 15, 50 years from now, I will say that one battle after another, and I don't know if this, this feels like it might be true in your life too, Bill, given the amount of time that I know you've talked to least about sinners. And almost certainly one battle after another, you live

in Los Angeles, like a, like a town that has such long, I don't know when to say I'm

you know, who's going to make the next one as studio wise and like, are the movies going to

“make any money? And so I spent, I spent a year in chain, almost a year now talking about sinners.”

I've never had the same conversation twice, and I don't imagine I'm going to have the same

conversation in five years talking about sinners. Um, and one battle after another, I don't know, we should talk about this. I feel like, you know, of all of PTA movies, this is perhaps the most, um, at least in my life. This is the most contested one, and it's the one where the contest for me at least feels like it, um, it just really sucks to have these arguments with people because against each other. Yeah. Well, to pit those two movies against each other, but also the

camp of people who really feel like one battle after another is just really doing black women dirty and as operating on this continuum, you mean, when you and I have talked about this particular or I thought there was the biggest flaw of the film. Question before. Yeah. Um, but see, I,

“the, my thing about what is going on in this movie is, I think it's best mode, and perhaps the”

best way to understand it is like something adjacent to a cartoon, like a political cartoon, right? And the question that I, that I, that I, the thing that excited me so much watching at that

first time, which I'll never ever forget, I just was so exhilarated and watched it in IMAX, and it

looked so good and felt like it weighed 4,000 pounds was the sheer fact of Tiana Taylor as an elemental energy and a physical presence, right? Um, I felt like he was giving a black woman the treatment that he gives these white men in his movies. He was, he invented a character, and you know, you, pension has a lot to do with this time, it's pension to root violent, the movie that's the movie, the book that's movies based on. Um, he came up with a character who is in this, in the

world of this movie, a black woman who has as much weirdness and complication and like wrongness as the white guys do. Yeah. And that, that in the world of Paul Thomas Anderson is a form of, that is, that is equality. But then, undergirding that is this, are these, are these, are these questions of like just American politics, forget like leftist, you know, white supremacist, military, industrial complex, but just like what the fundamental grimy roots of this country are all

lesssoiled there growing in. And without really having to hit that drum too hard after the first 33 minutes, um, you understand what the stakes are and they don't have to be too specific about

what the politics are. I never got hung up on the fact that these people believe in four things

and one of them is freedom from fucking fear. Like, yes, amen. Um, I didn't need, I didn't need more from that because I feel like this is a chase picture. Yeah. Um, you know, chase, a chase infinity picture and chase picture. Um, between, you know, two white men for a black woman. And, you know, let's go back to, you know, that less of 400 year old American story. You know, I mean, I just kind of like the brazenness of it. I liked its disrespect, but I'm also, um, I don't know,

comfortable with, and at this point, um, cure for and really I've absorbed all the critiques of this

“movie in light of the, in the light of the way I just laid out what I think is exciting and exhilarating”

about it because, you know, there is also it's attached to this other history of how black women have been represented in art culture and, you know, American commerce, if we're going back to like, you know, 1865 and before. I thought, but you can be left to work, but there. When I left the theater, my biggest flaw with the movie, which I talked about after was I was just, I was like, that person was a bad person. Mm-hmm. Like, I, I still don't understand why they killed the

people at the bank. Yeah. That was like, that's that cross the line, right? And then, yeah, basically dumps her kid, which is another terrible thing to do. And then there's this letter at the end that we're not even sure she wrote that tries to, why are we sure she wrote that? I know,

letter, so to give the daughter closure, right? Okay. But listen, big picture. This, I thought the same way you did like in the theater, where I was like, this is just fucking cool. I'm just so glad

“there's a movie like this, which is the exact same way I felt about sinners. And I think I think”

the 2026, the big picture when we look back at this on the, on the, on the year is just like, creative IP from scratch, right? Yeah, though. Yes, sinners is literally from scratch. One battle is adapted from a book, but either way, like just too funny or a movie. If you read violent, you're like, how did he find this? Yeah, but I'm saying like at least there was a germ of somebody else's idea, but just like how creative both those movies were. I think I think it's

pretty inspiring. And then you talk about a director that we've been on this three decade Odyssey with, who finally has this moment. And then Kougler, who I would say probably has the highest approval rating of anyone in Hollywood right now. I don't think I've heard one bad thing about him. I really love him. And he'll have his moment at some point. And he'll have his PTA moment. I don't know when it'll be, but he'll be on the stage and people lose their minds. But, but two great ones,

“and now they're kind of linked in some weird way, I think. Yeah, I, I love, I mean, thank you for”

putting it that way, because I do feel like these movies are talking to each other in some way.

And I never felt good about them being pitted against each other. I know that that is the horse

race nature of the way we think about the Academy Awards, but I don't know. I just really feel like the things, the events that unfold in sinners have such like dimensionial, it's dimensionalizing consequences for what happens in one battle after another. Yeah, right? I mean, you are, this is two movies about black people in America. And the forces that are trying to almost literally extinguish an expunge and absorb and, and, and, you know, red white people love or, or for white

people to sort of capitalize off of in the case of sinners. It's just, I don't know. I do feel great that these, these seem like the two movies that put people were most enthusiastic about. And you could feel just in the terms of the way the, the winners broke down. I don't remember exactly how many sinners wound up with versus one battle after another, but they, it feels close to me.

Um, yeah. But, you know, then there, I mean, can you talk about Sean Pen for a second?

Well, there's a lot of stuff to work with with Sean Pen. You know, I talked about with PTA in that, doing basically the triple crown of movie director writing, which is Woody Allen, Robert Benton, James Elbrook's Bong Junho in the comments. And that's the entire list, basically. Right. So you have that. Yeah. You also have Sean Pen moving into three Oscars. Does that Merrill Street to the Lewis? Yeah. Jack Nichols. So

“Katie Hepburn with four. I caught Katie. Um, that's how you roll.”

Now, Hepburn with four, but yeah, that the three Oscar club is is is not large. But you remember, I wrote that. So I did that Oscars piece for ESPN magazine in the late 2000s.

What created the scoring system? Oh, yeah. Okay. Basically, to try to prove that Merrill Street

was by using advanced metrics to prove that Merrill Street was the greatest actor or actress of all time. And the scoring system was best actor, actress one, seven points, nominations three, best supporting Oscar wins three, and then supporting nominations one. Right. And what was interesting about it. So Merrill Street put under the scoring system at 65 and Catherine Hepburn 52 and Jack Nichols in 40. Those were the three biggest. And what was interesting was,

getting to 20 was hard. There was like this weird cutoff of 20, where it was only Nichols in Tracy, Olivier, Dean of the Lewis, Brando, Lemon, Denzel, Dustin Hoffman, 29, Newman, Tenero, Hank, Peter O'Toole, Al Pacino, Leo now with 23, Gary Cooper, Frederick March, Anthony Hopkins, and now Sean Penn with 20. So that's, that's in 20. That's less than 20 actors. And it's yeah, and if you're thinking about, it's way harder to do this with actors than athletes,

be like, who's the greatest? Let's rank them. You can't do it. It's the errors are different up. But it is a nice little list of kind of actors that mattered over the last 100 plus years, right?

it's funny because Sean Penn is probably the least likely to surface in a conversation that isn't among, you know, like, our little, sort of. Right. Well, I also think of the great actors with the other actors. It seems like a lot of people felt like he was one of the guys. And that was the thing, even then the 80s and 90s before he wanted us. Yeah, like that's one of the

best actors we have. And he's always had that. But it felt like it went away the last 10 years.

And he just was hit that pretty weird point of his career. You know, he just made weird choices. He went back to directing these, I mean, I don't think the movies were inherently strange, but I mean, commercially speaking. I mean, he was never really interested in the box office. He was following his instincts. And some of those movies were were just, you know, that Dakota Johnson. Well, he had that one where he was in a sassy. Yeah, he just, like, he kind of didn't

trust this taste anymore. At least I did. It was like, there's new Sean Penn movie. And I'm like, all right, I don't know if I trust that it's going to be good. He does have this side of him that

“kind of wants it. Like, that's the only way you can, I don't know how else you explain. I am Sam,”

right? Um, maybe that we all, we all agree it's okay to laugh at the execution of a thing that is, you know, also excrubel as, as, as storytelling and filmmaking. Well, let's just simple jack and

trap a thunder. It's, it was basically it's ultimate destiny. Right. Right. Such a ridiculous choice

that it had to be parody within a decade. But I mean, it also, it said to me, because all these, all the great actors have that one performance where you're like, it's too much. You've gone too far. You want something too desperately. And sometimes going too far really does take you to the Academy awards and put you one stage with an Oscar in your hand. I'm looking at, I'm looking at you, Mr. Son of a woman out, you know. Um, but that, but that is also a performance that like comes

like, what, 10 years after the one that really breaks him, which is, which is Scarface. He does,

“he goes from, I think, and just as for all, well, he has the great 70s. Yeah, it's cruising”

author author. And then Scarface. And then Scarface. And I think Scarface is the one. I mean, he, Nicholson and Dunnaway all break at the sit like they crap at the same time. Mommy dearest comes out in 82. I want to say Scarface is 82. 83. Yeah. 83 is 83. Yeah. It's 83 Scarface. And then the shining is is that's 80. Yeah. Um, don't forget about the narrow kind of going sideways, too, during all this. But you know, Bill, I have a scandalous feeling about that. I think raging bull is

is him cracking. Yeah. That's the thing that like, I mean, he wins an Oscar for it, but he's not the same after. Well, there's also a actor. There's also massive amounts of cocaine going around in

Hollywood. So anytime I look at any time I look at late 70s through like about 86, I never know what's

going on. Yeah. It explains a lot of choices, a lot of the movies that were being made, a lot of the ups and downs of actors who knows. I just love that though. I mean, and we're not, the thing that we're losing is the, the ability to sort of have this conversation, right? Like, we cannot, I don't know who generationally like Michael B. Jordan wins best actor. Oh, I can't wait to talk about that. But like, what are we, what does the equivalent of talking about a fade down away, Marilyn Streep? I mean,

“in fade down away is just a person who I think was just one of the great 70s actors who like just”

shattered. She went, she went, she didn't go too close to the sun. She flew into the sun, right? And tried to come out the other side of it, tough in mommy dearest and a tough hang by all counts. Yeah. Sure. I think on the set, I think she was pretty tough to handle. And I mean, and then mommy dearest broke it. And then that was it. It got weird. When those cameras rolled, what nobody, more willing to do whatever needed to be done, I still think Chinatown is one of the,

her her performance in Chinatown is the, I don't know, I said this to you before, I feel like I've said this to you before. What is it? Maybe, I just think that that is the greatest psychological performance I think I've ever seen. I mean, maybe Isabel O'Pare and the piano teacher is is close. But Chinatown is just like she knows from the beginning of the performance, what she's acting. But then she has to hold on all of that, you know, she's keeping a secret

from her, the character is keeping a secret from herself. The actor is keeping the character secret while also keeping a secret from us. Nicholson, she has, she so wants to get caught and like unburden

get caught at all of those things are in that performance. Every single scene, it is just the way

“she uses her hands, the fluttering that her mouth does, her eyes, the breath work in the delivery of”

those lines. Oh my god, her death, like just what she looks like dead. Oh my god, it's just, it's just one of the greatest performances of all time period. Well, one that year. Well, she Ellen Burston. Yes, she didn't win that year. That was Ellen Burston. Yeah, Ellen Burston. Yeah, okay. I mean, I love that performance, man. We're probably, we're probably doing that one over again five years later. We've said that gets a redo. But Ellen Burston is great in that movie though. That's a kind of thing

you want to see actors. This Ellen Burston in that movie to me. I don't know how you feel about this.

That's Shalime and Marty Supreme. Oh, explain. What do you mean? Just like a really unpleasant

person trying to live life, right? Like, I don't like that character. I know where she's coming from. I know where she's trying to get to. But she is so abrasive and so hard to, I guess, quote, root for unquote, but the actor is delivering the thing that makes the character human. And the human part is unlike, well, this is a desperate, narcissistic woman whose dreams might not ever come true. And what you're watching Ellen Burston play is just the anger of those dreams failing, but also

like, like loving of this kid and letting this man into her life. But, you know, because this

“Chris Christofferson, you better let him in. But also, what does it mean to have him there?”

Anyway, I don't do you ask her for it? Well, the Oscars loves those kind of characters, right?

Nicholson won with that with his good as to get the same thing. Poor little guy and now I'm starting liking him by the end of this. Like, they love boy. I hate them. I know you do. No, you hate that we've we've discussed in the past. The greatest thing about the Alice movie is that it led to the CBS sitcom Alice with Linda Lavin and big K-back. It's one of the weirdest. Movie versus TV show adaptations we've had. But 75's a good

example, because that was when our colony won for Harry and Tanto and beat Puccino, a godfather part two, which was one of the great performances of the last 60 years. And then, uh, yeah, and then fade out of it as one for Chinatown either. But this is what happens. I do wonder it's a really tough one because that thought Chalamet was great. Marty Supreme. It's also a movie I probably don't ever want to see again. It's it was a one time or for me.

Now, with such things, I've only seen one battle once and I'm not positive. I'll see it again at some point, but I've been racing back to see it, but I've seen centers four times. Interesting. So I don't know whether rewatchability like affects some of the stuff with great movies. Sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it does. But with Marty Supreme, he's so great in it. But I, you know, I thought that movie was, he's just kind of needed to take shower after.

“It was a lot. I think that's why I didn't, I think, you know, something happened with that movie”

and in it's response. And I love it and then response to it. And I think what you're identifying is something like what people felt. You know, I, you know, we did an episode of Cannibal on the reaction to that movie. And part of that conversation that I had with Sasha Wise was just like reading the comments that got filed on Manola Darkis's review of the movie. And, you know, she loved it. And the comments were like, you were out of your mind. That is the least pleasant time I've had

it. I'm movie ever. I didn't finish it. I walked out. He is a reprehensible character. Why are we cheering this asshole? And I think that, you know, it was like one battle with what we talked about earlier with that current. Why am I cheering for this person? Yeah. But the thing about one battle after another is, I'm talking about the Tiana Taylor character. Yeah, but profilia, I mean, profilia is still the mother of Charlaine Swilha. Yeah. So the person you're really rooting for

there is the dot. Yeah. It's Charlaine. So I feel like the thing about the thing that makes Marty supreme great is also the thing that makes people hate it. Well, it's a 1950s ping pong movie set in New York. And, you know, it's heavily Jewish, which I'm sure like affected some people start talking about. Yeah. It's like such a Holocaust flex. It's, it's, and there's some crazy ping pong

that they sold that movie, I think people went thinking it was going to be like a like a cute,

“I think the ping pong confused people. Right. I think people really thought it was going to be like”

the force come. Yeah. Like you're just like doing a tour. Now it's, it was, I get another move that was super creative and had, and in same performance at the center of it, that was like, wow, haven't seen anything like this in a while. I just, I said this at the time, we did a really long rewatchables about centers. I thought, I thought what MBJ didn't that movie. I just couldn't believe how good he was. And I don't want to say I didn't know he had it in him, but I had kind of

reached a point where I wasn't sure he had it in him. And I thought the subtleties between the two twins, though, kind of that 70s macho that he had to have. I thought the accent worked. I thought that ending, which I just, I just loved ending of that movie. And I thought he was so good in that final scene. The epilogue, or the epilogue, I love the epilogue too. But I love the epilogue too. I just thought he was so good. And it was a classic. It was like watching when you have an NBA player who toils away

“for 10 years and finally wins the title. That's how it felt watching it. You know, it was like,”

this is what he put it together. He did it. Yeah. I mean, I, I, that is the metaphor that I used and some, so I, you know, I watched him with Sean and Amanda win that, you know, sag award. Yeah. And, you know, there was that image of him like looking at like, looking down at the floor with his hands on his head. And I don't, just that really stuck with me. And you know, it's like an image that got like that was used to stand in front of the rest of the

acceptance speech. And like as into sort of be a metaphor for how we all felt about him winning, which is like, wow. Well, even having, having landry from Friday night lights and the front row and him doing this, like NBA has been an important part of pop culture for this entire

century. Like you go to how important he was the first season of the wire. He's in Friday night

lights, which was his beloved show that people felt like there's whole generation people felt like they saved it. He's going to get canceled. They saved it. And then he became a big part of the Renaissance. And then, you know, fruit fail, which is a really, I actually watched fruit fail this week. Oh, did you? And I forgot how good it was. I hadn't seen it a while. It's not, it's not a movie. You're going to watch 20 times because it's, it's just so hard. It's so hard to watch. So then

with fruit fail goes right to create resuscitates the rocky franchise. Right. And that was one of those things where, I'm really pretty for these guys with the fruit fail guys. I hope I can't wait, how them on the podcast can't wait to see what's next for these guys. That's like,

“oh, shit, they're doing creed. Like, what's going on? Did you think that was weird at the time?”

I was worried about it. Yeah. I think the same way I feel about the Miami Vicery make and heat too now. Or it's like, I've just like, I hope this works, but are we sure? Yes. I mean, Miami Vicery make. Whoo. It's like, by the way. Well, and he's going to be in that by the way, but it's just like he just has found a way to permeate culture over and over again.

But I never, I, I thought the ship might have sailed on the Oscar for him. It felt like he was

moving into like, kind of where Jamie Foxx ended up in the 2010s like action movies, maybe a couple dramas, maybe some fun cameo's, but could he carry a movie and be a best actor? I didn't know. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I go, what year is that? I mean, I don't want to get hung up on Jamie Foxx, but like the soloist, whatever year of the solo, I guess the soloist is in the 2010s. It was in that great. He had a great 2000, it sort of, he had great 2000s, right? Yeah.

That includes, I think, one of the best performances of the 21st century, which is like, him in the soloist. That's a, and down he is great in that movie too. And it's, you know, Joe Wright at the, at his, at his peak Joe rightness, like Joe Wright. I don't know, that movie is very

moving. If you've never seen the soloist, it's got two slam dunk performances in it, and it's got

such good imaginative filmmaking from Joe Wright. And you know, it came and went. It's one of those movies. It wasn't trying to win any Oscars came out in April or March or something. Well, you know, the thing with MBJ, so the way he hit, and he'd been new impressed for this movie for a fucking year, right? Just a sinner and see, but yeah. But he did a really good job of just kind of played it close to the vest. You don't really, really, he didn't have any damaging

quotes or something. He's just not going to sink anything. He's just not, he's going. He was just,

this was really 100% fair to him, but he, it felt like he's been promoting shit for a year and a half, and he's just been on the present. He's involved with one of the Kardashians, which the people have a feeling about that, the movie was polarizing. Then he had a couple dopey interview moments. And at some point, he hit that really rare fuck that guy. Potentially, which happens sometimes where people kind of go, ah, fuck that guy. But nobody's like that with MBJ, so I do think that

“though it's the opposite. It's the opposite. Actually, I think his humbleness really, I mean,”

at least the perception of his being humble. He's really like that though. Yeah. I mean, I'll never

forget him like that. Whenever he came on your show, when was it, was it before Creed? He came on 2013, he came on. He came to my house in 2015. No, he came the second. I had him three times in like six years. When was the first 2013? He came to the Grandland Studios. Okay. And then I thought, I coached with the celebrity. I'll start DM2 and he was like, we're basically trying to get into the ball, Kevin Hart just was like, but shocker. But he, the, a couple interesting things with him just

growing up. He was Wallace forever. Thank you for a decade. He was Wallace, but he also had the Michael Jordan thing. He was like, Michael Jordan, Michael B. Jordan. So you're not as good as

you. And that Michael Jordan thing really hung over him the first 10 years is career because just

“because of his name, I don't feel like he shed it until fru-fail. I think when the fru-fail thing was”

just incredibly important for him in a whole bunch of different ways. And it's a really important movie. You know, and you think like that movie happens what's seven years before George Floyd, to that whatever, but it was, but it was, but it comes out at the same time, basically as Trayvon Martin. Right. Right. And it just, so it's, it's a pivotal movie for a lot of reasons, but it was pivotal for him because it was like, oh shit, Wallace, Vince from Friday Night

Lights, the guy from Parenthood. Like, you know, it, you know, it, you just didn't know Parenthood. I've got that. But he broke through all of it. And now he's minted. You know, I had a whole little, I really believe this. I don't know if I should be ashamed of myself for like, having this feeling,

but I feel like that B is doing a lot now. And I never think about Michael Jordan. I never think

“that. I don't think about it. I don't think about it at all. I think about that B is being like an”

action verb. You know, like, oh, yeah, it's like a verb. Michael B Jordan. Like, it's just something, it's a sentence to me. Right. And I just, he's such a fun, even, you know, like, you know, I would not have voted for him for best actor. I just wouldn't have because I'm really not, I'm so much less about my feelings when it comes to a vote for it. Uh, I would have gone Wagner mora Timothy Schalame, although I would have probably gone back and forth between Schalame and

Wagner mora in the secret agent. But those would have been my top two options. And I, you know, I know that the Caraprio, you know, I woke up like this. I feel like he kind of can do these things in his sleep of, you know, but he did a version of the same thing in killers of the flower moon, and it was terrible. Right. He was not good in that movie. And he's got such control over the material here in one battle after I also think he's better directed in one battle after another, which is a

while thing to say about smart and screw sazy directing to Caraprio because, you know, that relationship. Right. But I, I just think that the comedy of this movie is what he could lean into. And there's so that the comedy in the one battle after another is so elastic that it just gives all the things that the Caraprio is good at someplace to go. Like, I think that that stretch from when he gets to Sergio San Carlos's, Beniche de Toro's karate studio to the moment that he gets caught

with the taser falling off the roof. And his, the way he performs that being tazed is up there with the, with the, with the quailude crawl from the house to the Lamborghini in Welfa Wall Street. Right. That's just such a good, the physical comedy dimension of how he plays pat slash bob and one battle after another. I'm not going to say it's underrated, but it's a huge

Wagnermore, Timothy Schaleme, probably the Caprio, and then Michael B. Jordan. Because I'm not crazy about Blue Moon. I hate to say it. I do not love that movie. And I feel like Ethan Hawkins kind of like trapped in the gimmick in the shrinking in this, in this short man gimmick. Yeah. Um, I just didn't feel the tragedy in that story, or even like the sadness of it.

Hi, I had Schaleme and BJ basically like 55, 45, and I'm not even sure which way.

“And you're more in your talent. Like, if I, I think I would have voted for Schaleme,”

ultimately, but I would have agonized over it for three weeks. Because I just thought it almost have to, and this isn't fair to do this. What's a harder performance. And both of them were so hard. Hard. Yeah. Those are hard performances. First of all, playing twins that are different, but not two different, but definitely different where you could tell them a part and what some of the choices, Jordan made with that, I thought, or it was, I thought that stood out.

But Schaleme, that's just an insane movie. I don't, I don't know how many actors could have even made that movie work. And that's so I think I think I probably would have landed on Schaleme. I would have loved to see somebody try with Michael B. Jordan. I think Michael B. Jordan might have a Marty Mouser in him somewhere. Maybe. I would love to see him. I would love to like let, but that's a really, I mean, Michael Jordan's, Michael B. Jordan's 39. Timothy Schaleme's 30.

Well, he's a, he's a huge difference. Three Oscar nominations already before 30. It's like about as rare as it gets. I, I do wonder if Schaleme just goes to New Zealand to film a movie. Let's say he's filming June three in freaking Dubai, wherever. And he's just gone the entire promotion season. And I know they needed him to promote this stuff. And that was a big part of the movie itself is that they had to blow this out and do all these like outside the box things to get

people to go see in 1950s, Pinkpot movie. But I do want to work, right? Yeah, I do want to feed just gone like Leo style, where he's just count. Do that and still be with a gender

“Kardashian, though? Is that possible? Maybe not. Maybe that's how that works. It's going”

in Chrome Hearts suits at mixed games. Like this is just, so I don't, but what's happened here now is now he's moved into the, you have to escape the fuck this guy area. And you evolve out of it. And then people are like, oh, I like this guy again. This is the Ben Affleck Argos scenario. Well, okay, this is where I like, this is, this is, this is why I came here. Yeah. Listen, let's just talk about what his life looks like if nothing changes personally,

right? Because on the one hand, this guy is in a really shitty position. He is doing, he is the only person at his level of act or leafy. Doing the thing that we complain, we like plebians complain, nobody doesn't anymore. Nobody gives, nobody's just like telling the public is to go in the other room. Well, I do an interview. Nobody's like just hanging around for some internet content for somebody who needs it. Nobody's promoting stuff the right way. It's like that we talk about

tennis players and golf and golfers this way. Why? These guys are an interesting. They need to be more interesting. And then he is actually interesting and people are like, fuck this guy. Yeah, I just feel like, do you want Taylor Fritz to be your movie star? Or do you want this Timothy Shalame, Taylor Fritz, by the way, for people aren't playing attention as a very sleepy tennis player who's good at his job, but is also something you bounce a basketball.

“Well, what about, what about everybody in the woman's side right now?”

Sabelanka, I mean, I mean, tennis wise are acting wise. tennis wise. I mean, Sabelanka is fun. I mean, she says some crazy shit and she doesn't apologize. Well, sometimes she'll apologize for it. But she speaks her mind. She's, I don't know.

I've never had a Sabelanka conversation with anybody at dinner.

Hey, what do you think of Sabelanka? It's never happened. All right, fair. But I'm just saying, like, if you all want to talk about a conversation, it's very, very clear who's great at her job. Are you to Sabelanka? Is there for you? Have I told you that I'm in the theory, by the way, before I'm in the rough dude, thank you going. Oh, no, go on. That'd be my number one draft pick for a

pro sports thing would free her to come back right now. Oh, man. It would be so compelling. I'd be so into it. What would be more fun? Just come back. Just come back to us. Just come back. Just come back. You know, she could do it. What would be more fun? It would, you know, Tom Brady came back. It would be like, this is terrible. Please don't do this. I'm sorry. I came back. I'd be like,

what time was she playing? But first of all, what an insult to the rest of the field. I'm

right? Like, she does get to the quarter semis and finals of events that she has to create a tennis part of the time. Yes, sure. But you know, where she's not out there doing every day, that Elena Rebecca is doing every day. Four hands for five hours. She's playing tennis every day.

“I know that's what would be so compelling. Anyway, I'm just, I don't, I don't. I can't. Like,”

it's hard enough watching Venus losing the first round five times. So you're still so you're

pro-challama because he's interesting. And I completely agree. But I asked a thank you. I think he was in the limelight for too long. And I'm not the first person to make that point. Sometimes people you can burn people out on your persona. I also don't love the wigger thing that he was on for, you know, getting Marty Supreme World out, right? Like, he was doing that thing that makes everybody, you know, anybody who's attuned to like, you know, our menstrual past, he was very comfortable

sort of fucking with that. And it wasn't in a knowing way. I mean, I guess it was knowing. But it wasn't he was leaning into and not questioning or challenging this thing. He was daring us to notice and comment on it. And that didn't feel great. But at the same time, again, like, he is doing

“he is the kind of star that we say we want to have. And, you know, I think it is polarizing”

in a lot of ways. But, you know, my coffee girl, Chloe, you know, one of the coffee shops that go to New York City, you know, Chloe, nothing is going to break her from her family. I think your Dave trap Chloe, like we knew who this was. Chloe, Chloe, Chloe, a culture. Chloe, a culture coffee. I mean, if y'all know, you know, I mean, the, the, the, the culture on 38th and 6th, like she, there's nothing, she is worried about this relationship with, with, with the, you know,

I'm going into the canner Kardashian family. How can he not be? Is that like a passion of this by son, but like, yeah, so he's dating one of the Kardashians. You'd be like, what's he doing? Why? I mean, but I think that that is part of, I mean, that we know the story that it just doesn't,

it doesn't always end well for the people who go in there. Oh, really? Um.

“Is that what you've been hearing? Listen, I think this is ultimately from a career wise,”

from a career standpoint. This is great for him. Big picture is 20 years from now, we will look back and we'll think, like, this is awesome. You needed, you needed to get punched in the chain a couple times, sapons and sports, the sapons and movies all the time. Um, we've seen the grades, sometimes it's good to get a black eye and have a broken tooth. And then back from it, I really love the way he entered the Dolby auditorium. I don't know if you caught any of the red carpet stuff,

but I don't, I did not see him stop and talk to anybody. Well, he was like, I don't know

what he was talking to. He was walking through his assassination basically. Like, he knew it

could be one of the worst nights of his life. He was going into a roast. He basically had, I'm going to get roasted energy and he looked like Kevin Richardson from the backstory boys. Yeah. You know, but he, he had some real, like, I'm a get rickled. I'm a get rickled energy going in there. He was strolling real hard. He's a great actor and good things will happen to him. Yeah. I, I, I told you, I thought Jesse Buckley had the best performance male or female of the

century and you, you made a noise. You didn't really like that take. I didn't, I mean, you didn't, you weren't in the hand that you just haven't emotional guy. If you met me, stop. I think that, I think the problem that I had with that performance is I just didn't understand why the movie existed. And I sort of felt like it was an acting exercise in search of a reason to beat. I liked it. And then, and then the end comes and like many other people,

although I know a lot of people who who got emotional at the end and were furious that it made them emotional. But the end, the end really works. And you know, I think that it's, it's got to be said, Bill. Like, that is maybe the greatest birth scene. Like, the, I mean, I know that you feel like, also has a really tough one. You feel like it's actually happening. Yeah. That is a really, I don't know how you, there's some things I don't know how you act. And giving birth is just one of

those things where I'm just like, wow. Well, there's also been some really bad versions of it, too, which sure. Sure. But I mean, they usually don't take place in a forest. Hand that hand that for an hour or 20 minutes taking place in a forest for an hour and 20 minutes.

but all of the sudden, but this is, I think you have to, the last 20 to 25 minutes are so good.

You just don't even remember the first hour 20. It's like, it turns into like,

you're like, is this the greatest movie I've ever seen? And you just, you just forgive the rest of it. Bill, so you're saying, you're saying what I'm saying. Yeah. You're just also loving the movie, because I thought it was hour or 20 minutes. So I thought the ending, the whole last stretch was so good. I didn't care that I was mad at the first part. Once she leaves a go to the theater, I'm like, okay. When she said the theater is great. Best Oscars in Memorial Ever,

it took them forever to figure out how to do this. What do you think took them so long? I don't know. I just think I think it took them forever to understand. This is one of the

only parts of the show where everybody's like, I didn't really see that. I didn't really see that.

Oh, I love that person. Like, you could almost put this as an actual TV show. And I think it would get ratings. Okay. So your genius at that sort of thing. I don't know what you're talking to me for right now, when you could be writing a pitch. This is so interesting. Here's a show for the

“year. That's show with the rap writer thing. The only thing they fucked up. And I was so happy they”

did that. And obviously, one of the worst Hollywood stories we've had. They did a great job. Billy Crystal was awesome. Didn't break. He was gonna and he didn't remember because he's a pro. They show all these people from the movies. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like four seconds. Like you bet. I just, I was like, connect. Can we sit with us for five minutes? Like, we know how long that is. And we are next to judge the set. I was been waiting for to see

Daphne's a nigga acting Academy. What are we doing? I want to be all these people. One in a time. I was sad. I just could they like quickly skipped over it. And like Meg Ryan was out there. I don't, I'm not even sure all the people that were out there. I don't even know. I don't know. I don't know. It's a great question. I mean, there was Danny DeVito. I don't, I don't know. Oh, wait, did they do it? Did they do it? Did they do it? No, they didn't.

There's no reason to be. There's no filmography. I thought I saw Fred Savage. I'm like, what's Fred Savage out there? Oh, interesting. Was like patinkin? I don't know. But I don't know. But I thought that was great. I thought they did it really. So they go through half of the morom. And then Rachel McAdams comes out and does like a whole Diane Keaton thing. I'm like, great choice. Good job. Way to talk about some of the best females. They go through that.

Then the end was Streisand, which on the one hand was like, like almost like watching like, you know, one of our parents like try to speak it. It was like, oh, God, I hope this goes well. And obviously she doesn't have the voice anymore. But it was weirdly touching. Because she meant it. Yeah. Because she meant it. I would add Jane found out there with her. I actually,

“I thought Jane found out her should have been together for that. Did you see Jane found her? What she said?”

What? She was joking. But it was one of those. I'm not totally joking. Yeah. I don't know. She was like, I'm a poor move in it. So my Spanish is not good enough to pick up on the nuances of sarcasm. But just see, like she was saying, I read it in in El País. So I'm not sure. I mean, the sarcasm would might have been lost on me. But you know, she found her had to be out there. Yeah. I think she should have, I wonder what happened. I wonder how they asked who they asked.

Oh, yes. And we know what happened. Stries it. It's like, I'm only doing it if it's me. Oh, interesting. I'm not sharing the stage with anyone. It's got to be all. Yeah. I just kind of loved how like she just, she just like woke up and was at the, at the, at the theater, ready to do this. You know what else? I love it. It tied in one of my other favorite things. When somebody was old, um, who had an awesome incredible career. Still carries themselves like they were just as

famous as they were 50 years ago. Yes. And I mean that as a compliment, not an insult. It's, I just,

no, my mom always has this theory. My mom said this theory forever that somebody who is beautiful at

like age 18 carries themselves like that for the rest of their life, the matter what they look like when they're 60. And it's the same thing with famous people. If you hit a level of fame that you're just

“that way, your whole life. Like, I'm sure Fedanaway before she died when I think she's dead.”

No, don't put that out there. Fedanaway life? Yes, she is. I'm sure Fedanaway right now. Do you met her? Would can't be carried yourself like one of the biggest stars in the world? I just think you almost have to buy into it to be that famous. Yes, you're purchasing it. You don't, you don't

show that I was doing where I was just having people along and talking about how old they feel,

you know, Max Linsky had a great show called 70 over 70. And it was just like, like, people of note over the age of 70 talking about what it's like to be the age they are. And I am, like, one

“of the things that comes up on that show is like, how old do you feel you are? And I think a lot”

about like, what is the age that you are going to feel when you're 85 years old? Mine is 32. I have felt 32 since I was 27. And what's yours though? How do I feel right now? No, I mean, how do you watch your spiritual age? Like, what do you 44? How old do you feel as a person? 44? Because I can't play basketball anymore. I mean, I probably could and I would just get hurt. That's a great answer. Like, but when you think of yourself, you think of yourself

as a 44 year old. Yeah, because I'm okay. I'm still, I'm still locked in. Yeah, I mean, I think that Barbara Streisand, I wonder what she would say her agents. Like, I wonder what she would say, she's, is she like the 19 year old girl who got discovered, singing at the most walk in the village? You know, I mean, she was younger than 19, I think. Like, what age, I think that, you know, Jane Fond is also one of these people. How old is Jane Fond

to think she is? I guarantee she feels, she's still probably feels like she's a hot 42 year old. Yeah, I think that she probably is still doing workouts, to work out videos.

“And I think that, like, for movies, I just think it's really important. Like, Denzel,”

I think Denzel still thinks he's 25. Oh, you could see that in the spike movie. Yeah, that was a performance that was he's probably 10 years to old to do and it's like, fuck it. Is there a chain of it? I mean, and it really, it can sometimes go bad, right? It can sometimes ruin movies, but I mean, a lot of the time, it brings out something really interesting and special. I think that's the thing that I love

watching about Denzel now, is that even when the movie is bad or like he is even bad in the movie, he's committed to whatever it is he is decided to do in front of those cameras. And it is youthful and like the youthfulness of it is really powerful. You know, we have a, it's CR month on the rewatch, well, so I'm sorry, you weren't part of it. Or these movies, I just finished to live in

Diane L. A movie, I will tell y'all, y'all are going to kill me. I've never watched it. So I watched,

you know, I mean, one of the great things about the show is, I'll just listen to episode, I mean, I've seen it. I mean, I've seen it. Yeah. I mean, well, now I, that's, this is one of the ones where like I watched it. Couldn't believe I've never seen it. For God, freaking had directed it. Listen to you guys talk about it and was like, I cannot wait to smoke this movie. Well, so next week, we have, uh, we did the nice guys. And one of the things I brought up was Ryan Gosling's,

not to step on three watchables. But we, Brian Gosling's 2016, he is the nice guys in Lala Land. And I was saying how one of the awards I would love to have in the Oscars is just the MVP for the movie here. Like how we do in sports. Yeah. And it could be a movie. It could be director. It could be a writer. It could be anybody. But like who was the most impactful? And it would kind of be shaded toward if you did at least two movies that were consequential in different ways for some

“reason or somebody that just owned the year. So I think for this year, if we did the MVP,”

I think it would be PTA because of what he does, the three awards he went through that movie, which as we discussed, not a long list for that, also gets Sean Penn and Oscar. Another great Leo movie, Jason Finney, he based the money. The money. Yeah. The money that it makes, and we'll continue to make. And then some of the stuff it did for some of the actors in the movie, and then the pretty suit del Toro, gets something out of Taylor. The impact of it on all these

different careers plus how it did, I think he's probably the MVP. But I wanted to talk it out. Yeah. I think, ooh, I like that. I feel like, I think it's hard to argue in that, you know, I don't know when the, I don't know when in like the NBA for instance, when this, when I mean,

it always seems in the NFL that it's just statistics that determine it. It's not like feelings.

Yeah, NBA is weird because NBA is regular season. So I was, I always thought there should be

Who it's basically who owned the year? Well, but what I'm saying is what I'm actually asking is in your evaluation of Paul Tom. I mean, you did not introduce this, so I'm assuming it's in admissible. Yeah. But the idea that the Oscar's have to tie into it somehow. No, it's the opposite. Does there have to be, is there a history that you can take into consideration when making your

“choice, right? Like, do you think about the fact that it's taken PTA this long to get the MVP?”

Um, I think part of it's narrative part of it is even even been one of the three finalists

for an MVP. You're not even like, he's never even been to this dance before and in the way that he's

been there. Yeah. So if you did owe seven, that gets really hard because you could say that they know they lose. That's one of the great performances of all time. Yes, or you could say, yo, the common brothers, this is, their whole career was leading up to this and they've completely resuscitated Josh Berlin. And what they did to have here Bardem and the and create one of the great villains of all time and they core map McCarthy and Tommy Lee Jones,

it's like this exclamation point on his career and there's probably the MVP's in that year. But by the way, this is completely stupid. I'm fully aware. Like, I'm sure there's movie nerds. Like, this is the worst ever, shoot me. Don't do this, I mean, it's a fun idea. Like, kind of hold the ear. I did. Right. I mean, like, there was the year Sandra Bullock was definitely the MVP.

“I think it was the next year, wasn't it? Well, maybe it was like for blind side. 2000. Yeah. I mean,”

she had blind side. But she taught it for things about race. The, for yes, of course. I mean, I can be a better, better, better, better, better, better than this man. I did in Michael Ores,

black mother never really considered all the stuff that movie made me consider before.

But I mean, you know, the proposal and the blind side and the way that, like, it completely kind of changed our understanding of what it was that Sandra Bullock could be in late, like, sort of mid late career. It's a great point. I love not only did you embrace by the, but you came up with an awesome MVP season, the Sandra Bullock to do the rom-com. When the Oscar, she's also caught in the blind side. Like, it's kind of like millfall fame. It's

true. And she really, like, graduated into this, like, different level of whatever and the SaaS and nobody knew she had it in her. That's the thing, right? Like, because the thing that makes, like, her year, for instance, really interesting is that you just didn't think of her at all the ways that you were sort of being allowed to think of her, which is as, well,

“I think the SaaS without having to sort of suffer for it. The sexy SaaS. Right. So we had”

in Gloria's bastards that year and we had a avatar. We had her locker. Catherine Biglow, one picture and director. Yeah, Cameron. That's a, that's a big one. And, and she beat her ex husband, which was the fun one. So she would have gotten, she would definitely have been a, a finalist. She would have been a finalist. Yeah. But I mean, I think that that's Sandra Bullocks. That's not. See, this is a fun exercise, the MVP. Yeah. So I think PTA was the MVP, but I'm going to accept

other. I mean, the other candidates include Couglar. Couglar 100%. Who would have been, like, if it's just, I mean, you could argue with the Couglar. You could argue that the case, part of his case would be the movie we're very back to him 25 years later. Oh. And yeah. That's a good one.

Which is not, he's not the first one that came up with that, but also like what that movie

meant to Warner Brothers to. Right. Yeah. What it meant to Michael B. Jordan. Yeah. It's a good battle. It's a good one. By the way, we mentioned this every time we talked about the Oscars, standing back to when we were growing together. And even we did an Oscars preview. I think was that an ABC or ESPN. I don't, I think it ran on both. That was right for it left. It was right for it left. When we did, we did that whole Oscars preview that year. And there was

reason I brought this up because we were, we had all these like fake goofy awards for it. Yes. That were super fun. They did add the best casting this year, which I enjoyed. And it made me wonder, are we going to start? Because I still feel like best young stars should be an Oscar. And I know, they've talked about this on the big picture too. Like under a certain age, I don't know if Jason Finity, she might be one of those who's a little older than people really. I don't know. Like

with the reason what your cutoff is, is it 16 is your cutoff? No, that's that's you went older

Obviously, you could have the breakthrough star Oscar. Like somebody, but I guess that would be,

“and see that they can get complicated. Like Noah's youep, I think it's Noah's youep, the kid from”

HamNet, he's probably your winner. Would you have pet Oscars or no? Oh, come on Bill, no. Can you imagine like who's who's getting robbed, internal who's some other, some other animal one. Sorry, who to tell you. Who's too much campaigning? All the animals now are CGI anyway. Like I don't even know what the real animal is. You'd have to prove that you used an actual living animal, which then creates all these moral and ethical concerns in your use of the animal.

I don't think it's worth it. So to shallow them, I went and Oscar in the next five years. I mean, it's funny because I was going to ask you how many more Michael B. Jordan, how many more nominations, Michael B. Jordan has? Oh, I think, a couple more. I mean, he said in that stage now, and it, the Oscars does, they do make you earn it a little bit. They had to better round. I mean, Bradley Cooper, think about the people that do not have Academy Awards

after like X number of it. But what would Bradley Cooper want for? I'm not saying he was robbed. I'm just

saying wedding crushers. Although he was, that's like basically a wedding crush. He's supported.

There is this Niki supporting. Oh, there you go. That's, so should there be an Oscar for comedy and should there be an Oscar for horror? Should they just add those? And would you turn the TV off when they were awarded them? Okay. I personally would be, if we are talking about going down this really bad idea route. No, because, you know, it's true. There were no comedies. There were no best picture nominees that were like pure comedies this year for the most part. I mean, really

at all. I mean, K-pop demon hunters is the funniest movie I saw last year, and not nominated

“for any of the top awards. Um, original screenplay. What is wrong with y'all? Um, but I think that”

one of the interesting things to think about is, I thought, I don't want a genre category. That leave the, like, bring back the MTV movie awards for that. But what I fear, I think would be interesting bill is removing the, the genders from the acting headphones. Oh, wow. I think, I think we got to call these people's bluff. See, I don't the industry's bluff. You're losing too much history with that, though. I think you're creating new history. We're creating new history. Yeah, that's that's

a brain breaker for me. I just think we got to try it. We got to try it because because at least that we will know something about this organization, because it's not like, it's the Oscars. It's not like people. I mean, I'm sure there'll be industry people who would hear a statement like this and be like, if you really thought this through, but I'm just saying like, it's not like the Oscars doing it costs

“work. So who would it want if it was just one actor, Oscar? I think Jesse Buckley would. Oh,”

I remember what I was going to say when I brought up that great one thing. Because if you notice, I pivoted beautifully, but I actually, I mean, I thought you remember. No, we've been talking about this for ever since we've been talking about the Oscars, not knowing the votes. And this is a win gold

been thing. He would have been amazing if Shalima lost by like five votes. Can you imagine?

Seniors, I think Seniors probably lost my five. By the time we got to the weekend, everyone thought Seniors was going to win. Yeah, I mean, I'm telling you if they did had another week. I think I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. We could have found we could find out the Frankenstein came in second. Well, there were there were too many words. There were too many words shows in general. I said, this is Sean last week. You mean leading up to the Oscars?

Yeah, too many words. And the Oscars, it was too late. It shouldn't be like right before much madness. That's fucking crazy. But this is February. Let's get the year done and move on. Well, I can tell you what does happen. If you do that, Michael B. Jordan is not a best actor. Yeah. I think people, I think people turned against Marty Supreme. We kind of talked about that. And I also think it took people a second to really understand, including me, honestly,

what it was the Michael B. Jordan was doing for that movie because the movie is so good that it doesn't even need him to be as good as it turns out. He is. Right? Like, you mean band talked about this movie. We made it an instant rewatch. You made it an instant rewatchable. And I, you invited me in band to come talk about it. I, what do we say? Who won the movie? They were only two options. Who won the movie? We said, we said coogler because we said coogler. But partly because of the crazy

deal he did. And just how insane it is that he created this movie from scratch and got people

Like, it's like the degree of difficulty. It was like a nine point nine five. But the Marty Supreme

“degree of difficulty was also high. I was just about to say it did not need Michael B. Jordan”

going here and act a fool to try to get people to come see the movie. Right. Right. The way Marty Supreme needed Timothy Schallemey to do some interesting stuff to try to, to try to, put some butts in some. Well, next year's next year's Oscars is going to be a lot different because the Odyssey is just going to win 27 Oscars that no other movie should come out. This is just going to be the Odyssey across the board winning everything. I'm I'm I'm

saying and moaning and groaning route. You'll do the first guy in the theater.

You'll be the first one about Christopher Nolan. I'm just like, I'm not even opposed. I'm just all right. I don't know. We gotta go. I can't do too long. I know. Um, I know. I love for you to come back on because there's TV stuff we gotta talk about at some point. Okay. We. Are you, what, D. T. L. Yeah, what I saw. D. T. F. Sorry. I saw them. It's fucking weird one. I don't, I don't like what I don't

“like it. I don't like it. It's, we should talk about love story because um, are you watching that?”

Are you kidding? Oh. Am I watching that? Okay. This is my wife's super bowl. I was going to say. She's watching three times each episode. Watch is it? Goes to her mom's house second watch.

Then third watch over the weekend. Oh, my. This is so scary. We're waiting her whole life for the show.

We gotta have, okay, then I want to talk to Carrie because, I mean, I, I, what a wild show. And a wild show to have, I don't know what we can talk about later. But like it's a wild show to have now that the country and the world are falling apart. That we, I don't know, I don't know what this Middle East situation is going to mean for us. It's definitely not, I would say, not promising, not good. But here we all are strong out on a show about two one very famous white person and his girlfriend

and how much she does not want to get sucked into the vacuum of the thing that could probably kill her. Right? Fam and paparazzi, the whole thing plus this family that had a bunch of deaths. Yeah, it just feels like this, I mean, in a, in a completely accidental backhanded way, even more than, you know, he'd arrive a re-solving other problems. This show is really about like this mess that we are in, and I don't even think it knows except it comes from Ryan Murphy's

definitely. Yeah, I guarantee you it doesn't know it. It might not know. Between his and he did

“rivalry, I think this has been my wife's, uh, but favorite TV here. We're, it's only mid-barch.”

The combo those two are ready. If we can keep this pace the rest of the way, I gotta be honest, banged out all three episodes of the Madison with my queen Michelle Fiverr. Yeah. Yeah. It's good one. Okay. You told me to watch it. I will, I will watch it. Well, you love Michelle Fiverr, as much as I do. It just looks like a catalog. No, it's, it's, you'll like it. Listen, we have to support Michelle Fiverr with Paltrow for the rest of the writers.

All right, I just, I, yes, I mean, as you, I mean, I'll do anything for, uh, I would love to bring you on after the last JFK love stories. So, uh, so, mark it in your calendar now. Good to see you, Wesley Morris. Don't forget about Canobal. Uh, that's his podcast. I've been on it.

I've been invited since I've only been on once. You always available. I was ready to go.

Fret not. All right. Good to see you. All right. Now see you. Thank you. Bye. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to Billy and Wesley. Thanks to Gahaudenard Wardo as well. Don't forget to rewatchables one up this week to live in Dinoe and a special mail bag. And the next episode of the rewatchables is going to be the nice guys. Yeah. That's going to be up on Monday night. I'm going to be back on Sunday after Celtics timber wolves. We're going to be live on

Netflix, be in Zacklow, so it should be around 730 Pacific time when we're going live. So, enjoy the weekend. Enjoy the basketball. I will see you on Sunday night. Oh, the way, uh, must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or well, my game problem caught 100 gambler 1 800 by reset call 888 797777 or visit ccpg.org/chat Connecticut or mdgambling help.org and

chusets or call 877 8 hope and why or text hope and why in New York for Louisiana call 877 770 787 867