Russell Westbrook’s One-of-One Career With Kirk Goldsberry, Plus College Football and Coaches With Van Lathan and Chris Ryan

We put up two rewatchables last week.

We did the Italian job.

“We did about last night and then on Monday, we have the re-speed.”

We are doing speed again. We did it. It was a really, really good episode. Misha on Fantasy and Chris Ryan, the OGs. We did this.

I'm very early on in the rewatchables run. So now we did it again with way, way, way more categories. And that is coming for you on Monday. I'm not sure if I'm going to have two more podcasts or three this week. I'm going to have at least one positive with two.

So stay tuned. And then after this week, I'm going to go hard in the football. I've been very careful this year. I've been trying not to do too much NFL before we got close to the season.

Because I felt like I did too many segments last year and I basically gave you all my

takes for the season before I did the preview with Sal. So Sal and I talked about it and Sal and those guys are breaking down on ringer wise guys, which you can watch down on YouTube and Twitch and Spotify. They've been breaking down division by division and Sal has been hosting it and staring up, but being very careful about giving too much away.

So when we do our giant extravaganza on Thursday the 27th, a two-part or AFC NFC. I'll hopefully have some very first, I have some hot NFL takes this year. I'm really trying to save them for toward the end of August. So on this podcast, Russell Westbrook retired. I had to break out the old Book of Basketball pyramid breakdown format that we did for a few

guys.

“If you remember and you can find all those by the way in the Book of Basketball podcast feed.”

Wanted to deep dive on Russell Westbrook's career. The strangest career of any top hundred guy ever and we're going to explain all the reasons good and bad. Why? I'm probably a little more of a defender than most of us, but he is so much fun to talk about.

So Kirk and I did a bunch of that. And then I had Van and Chris when they were here the other day. We talked about coaching and a whole bunch of college football stuff and after we did rewatchables, we just kind of kept the cameras on and went. So I was saving that for the Sunday podcast.

So that is going to be the podcast. We're going to take a break, Pearl Jam. And then Kirk Goldberg and I, on the career of Russell Westbrook. This episode is brought to you by one of my best friends in life and if I'll Sunday take it, man, I missed it.

Kickoffs coming. Yeah, we're getting close. We're within a month. With NFL Sunday taking YouTube TV, you get every game every Sunday, all in one place and it's magnificent.

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games and YouTube TV for local national games. YouTube TV required terms or shirts that embargoes apply, commercially used, excluded no refunds. All right, Kurt Goldberg is here, my old grant land teammate. There's nothing going on.

It's mid-August. There's some baseball stuff that hasn't really got an instrument yet. There's football preseason. We had a basketball event that happened. It was not the basketball fan.

Russell Westbrook, surprisingly retired. And I figured this would be a good time to dust off my old book of basketball gimmick. But before we do that, breakdown of Westbrook's career, before we do that, is there any NBA

“thing that interests you right now or is this full hibernation mode for you?”

No, I have an idea for you coming on for your podcast, but I think we should save it for the end. Let's do rust, dude. Okay, let's dive into rust. You're going to save your thoughts until we get going.

I'm going to use the book of basketball format that I used when I did this, and I think 2019 2020. I'm going to read something at the top. Now I wrote this in 2012. It was a piece of a column, but I was amazed how it has held up for Westbrook.

Who retired last week who played 18 years in the NBA, and who I think it's fair to say was probably the most discussed argue about player of the entire Grantland ringer era, Grantland formed June 2011. I think people had the most takes one way or the other.

to grow.

We're going to go on to that.

But this is what I wrote after game four of the 2012 finals, which Oklahoma City lost, they fell behind Miami three games to one, if you remember, Westbrook did not have a good game three. It was awesome in game four. It was 20 for 32, it was all over the place, and just it was one of the more electric

losing finals performances. We had the last 20 years. This is a piece of the column I wrote. He's been the most polarizing player of the 2012 finals, no small feet considering the second most polarizing basketball player of all time happens to play for the other team.

Just in there, Kirk, because I had LeBron as second most polarizing at the time, no longer in the top 20. I don't feel like he's polarizing at all, right? No, people forget that LeBron James was the most hated athlete in America when he first got to Miami.

I swear to God, they gave me an interview for him in 2013, and part because people hated LeBron James when he went or took his talents to Miami for sure.

“So much is he ever going to, is it ever going to happen for him?”

Does he have an inside him?

So he was second at the time, I wrote that, will it will always be the first most polarizing

basketball player of all time. Anyway, Westbrook's detractors don't ever expect him to find the right balance between competitive and reckless. They believe he's a shooting guard, masquerading, as a point guard, like a better version of Steve Francis that he takes too many shots away from the more efficient Kevin Durant

that Oklahoma City cannot win the title until they swap them out for a true point guard for the parentheses, say Region Rondo. This was another conversation we're having in 2000, they need a more of a pure point guard to set up Kitty. Westbrook's defenders accept his faults because they're a small part of the greater

good. He brings so many unique things to the table, fills the stat sheet and so many different ways, competes so freaking hard every game, and remains such a good nature teammate. They're fine with any collateral damage. The 2012 zombie sonics, this is when he's come to the zombie sonics, made the finals

partly because they're relentlessly young and relentlessly athletic.

“That's Westbrook in a nutshell, you love those teams, right?”

Those 2012. Well, I was a spurs fan, and that spurs team, they beat was one of his crowning achievements, remember how hot that spurs team, oh yeah, they won 20 some games into the playoff somewhere, where two games up in that series, and then hardened Westbrook and Durant, Baca, put them away.

Yeah, we've got some crazy team. Yeah. All right. Here's the rest of whatever.

In game three, a semi-neudered Westbrook, carefully tipped out through the first two and

half quarters, ratcheted things up after Durant's fourth foul, played poorly, and earned a conspicuous quote, "rest" from Scott Brooks. That was a dangerous moment for Oklahoma City, not just for this series, but long term, something that he has pants, Jeff Enga, and he caught while announcing the game. Remember when Jeff Enga and he used to be on the Westbrook games, Ms. Hostess.

When Ben Gunney coached in Houston, he came to regret how he handled Francis, a similarly explosive guard who struggled with his competitiveness, reckless calibration, instead of embracing the electric qualities that made Francis special. He steered Francis toward being more of a pure point guard inadvertently compromising his game.

You didn't need to translate it to figure out why Ben Gunney brought this up during game three of the 2012 finals, not time for a name drop. I actually ran into Ben Gunney outside of Miami Hotel on Monday night, one day before the biggest game of Westbrook's young life, used to stay at the Mandarin Oriental, or ESP and things.

It was great. Nice to meet you. I brought up his Francis comparison and through out one of my hair brand theories at him, the 10% theory, even the best NBA players have holes in a best case scenario, they're tapping into about 90% of their total potential with the holes representing the other

10%. We can either dwell on the 90% or we could dwell on the 10% and some holes are less glaring than others.

“Do you believe in this theory, just in general, for stars, everybody has a 10%?”

Yeah, everybody has a flaw. Everybody. Ron James, well, I wrote, for instance, Larry Bird's biggest hole was his inability to defend quicker forwards without help, same for Dirk and Witzky. You could hide that specific hole on the right team with the right coaches, the right

teammates, and even the right matchups, but something like Region Rondo's shaky jump shot or the Botox face that afflicted Carl Malone in crunch time, well, there's this case of the 10% flashing, like a neon sign. Again, some holes are more glaring than others, but everyone has holes. Well, Kurt Goldberg just said, on Oklahoma City, it's tougher to see Kevin Durant's 10%.

He's not strong enough yet to prevent defenders like Shane Baddie from pounding him, 25 feet from the basket and then denying him the ball and he's not a consistently good enough to funder yet. Now, he kind of fixed that, right? Feeling he got better at both of those things.

which permeates everything he does good and bad. You notice when Westbrook shoots 27 times, you notice when he bricks and elfated three in a huge spot and you notice when he's bowling someone over for a charge because he thought he could dunk over three guys and still, as I mentioned in Van Gundi, Westbrook does so many positive things that those 10% plays are something of attacks for the overall Westbrook

package, right? Van Gundi agreed wholeheartedly, he believed Oklahoma City needed to win or lose this series in their own terms, not some idealistic media driven belief about how they should be playing.

Westbrook will never be John Stockton and ain't happening.

We both wanted to see Westbrook be Westbrook again, one of the league's most fearless competitors, someone who brings a ton of things to the table and takes a few things off to. Now, I wrote that in June 2012 and that became his career. He took some stuff off, he brought a ton of stuff on. He never totally figured it out, he never won a title.

That was the only final game he won in game three, never got back.

“And yet I think now is the years past and especially as a bench guy Kirk, the last few”

years where he was never the right fit on the right team as a bench guy. He came close a couple times, but the flaw, the 10% started to feel like a 30%. I'm going to give you my pyramid rank and lately, I still feel like he's one of the top 60 players ever. I also don't think there's ever been a career like it like it. So let's start there, is there another guy you think in the top 75 top 100 that remotely

resembles this bizarre Russell Westbrook career? I mean, I deal to you, but when you talk about the triple doubles, two names immediately come to mind, right, is Oscar and magic, magic is on a whole different level. In my opinion, is one of the greatest players of all time, the greatest point card of all time, in my opinion, if it's not Steph and Curry, I think I'd still give it the magic

called me crazy, but the combination of the counting stats, the triple double for the

“whole season, one in MVP, two scoring titles and assist title, I believe. I mean, just”

from accounting stats perspective, it's an all time great, great run. And the other thing is like, who would have thought when you're writing that column in 2012 Bill Simmons? That was the only time we'd see this dude in the finals. It's almost like this spurs team we're watching in 2026, if you would said, "Oh, that was the only time Dylan Harper made the finals," or Stefan Castle or Victor Weminiam, and we had that team pegged like we have

this spurs team pegged. They were going to be around for a long time, but ultimately, statistically

he's a very unique player, and I'm sure there's a lot we'll get into with the advanced stuff. But the stats we have that allow us to compare apples to apples back to Oscar Robertson, that's the, that's the compound plan that. Yeah, he's, I tweeted this out today. There's only three players ever that have done 25,000 points, 7,000 rebounds in 7,000 assists in their career, and it's him and Oscar in LeBron. But then if you go backwards,

they're also the only guys who've done this with 20,000 points, 7,000 rebounds, 7,000

“assists. If you drop it to six and six, the number goes to eight, but that's how like rare”

the career totals are. And I think the counting stats, I think he's going to be a really hard guy to figure out 50 years from now when people are just trying to study clips and basketball reference. He played 18 years, nine all star. He was the 2017 MVP as you mentioned. Top 4 MVP three times, second first team on Bay twice, fifth, five times second on NBA and second third, including that Houston season, which I forgot he made 13 of all on B.A. in the lockout season.

He was the second best guy in a finals runner up in those 2012 playoffs 23, five and six, 28 percent from three, 37 games, which will be a recurring theme for this pot. His four-year peak was 27, 9 and 10 triple double three straight years in the 14 and 16 playoffs, which were the other two times OKC came really close. He was 26, 7, and 10 assists for 37 games, 30 percent from three. And after KD left, he lost nine of his last 11 playoffsers. So I'll start here. The big question

after everything we laid out. Would you want to play on his team?

Now, the answer is mostly yes, but it's a really interesting question because that's one of the

number one ways I was trying to measure all these dudes against each other way back when. Like this is why it's unfair to use stats with Duncan because everyone from Missouri love the guy, love being a teammate. He didn't care about counting stats. He just wanted to win. He won 72% of his

And it didn't matter who was on his team. The team just won and won and won. Would you want to be and wrestle with, but stay? I don't think so. I know that sounds harsh. You and I have talked about this for years, but egalitarianism that sort of evolved with with pop of itchers spurs and then curse warriors that really made the game beautiful and free flowing throughout the 2010s. That was the style that captivated me. And then there's the tension with other teammates. Obviously,

I'm not an NBA player, but you look at some of the teammates, including LeBron James, pretty recently that we're like, I don't think so. So it definitely has to be at least one of the reasons that I went to. Right. Two of the, yeah, two of the greatest players of my lifetime.

“We're like, I can walk away from this relationship. Also, I think I played with them too. And that”

was another one where he was like, I think I'm good. What would your answer be to that question,

Bill Simmons? I think there's two different things. First of all, would I want to play in a

steam? I think I would have in the first eight, nine years, even though he would have been frustrating in times. Yeah. Because here's where he gets in-house, swatched him for your watch, and it's like one of those last rest of the fenders. Wasp are played so fucking hard all the time. Yeah. That I don't know how you would have wanted to play with somebody like that day to day. Now, the question is, could you win a title with that? You know, you, I'm sure there was at least a small piece of the

Tatum Brad thing and and Brown leaving that Tatum after nine years. Maybe he was good with playing with J. L. Brown. Like, I'm sure the longer you play with somebody, you start getting more and more annoyed by certain things. But the competitiveness that he had and the relentlessness and the fact

that he was basically, he could play 80 games, 40 minutes a game in the playoffs. He was balls to

“the wall. He never seemed to get tired ever. I think I could have talked myself into it. The bigger”

question is, if you're a GM or somebody running a team, would this have been one of the two guys you would want to build around for 15 years? And I think it's really interesting that in the later part of his career, when OKC got good again and he's beloved and OKC and pressed he loved him and defended him the most. There was a world where he could have brought him in in 24 or 2526 and they didn't. So that now that's role-play arrests. It's a different version of him. But it's also

not nothing, right? Yeah, that's great. That's right up there with the Katie, the LeBron. There's a lot of smoke there. I will say this because Russ is ultimately a hard player to pin down. You already said he's enigmatic. But I will say this is a ticket purchasing spectator of ProBaskeball. This dude is electric. One of the few guys, if you're watching a game in person or even on TV, you can just tell this guy's intensity is higher than anybody else in the game. And that was

entertainment. Ultimately, ProBaskeball's ridiculous format entertainment where we have to pay $1,000 sometimes to go see these games. Yeah. He gave you your money's worth and I think that we can't

forget that. Like he was a spectacle. It wasn't always smart. It wasn't always analytically correct.

But to your point about his competitiveness is ferocity. You wrote beautifully in your 50 shades of Westbroke column about his transition energy, like just going vertically attacking the teeth of a defense. You got your money's worth. He was a hell of a fun guide to watch play hoops. Yeah, I wrote. So the MVP season, which we'll get into a bunch. But I wrote this about a month before the end of this season. His night tonight relentlessness was unlike anything

that's ever happened in the league. Who played harder for six straight months than Russell Westbroke just did? Did you ever see Resska tired? Did you see him sweat? Did you see him breathing heavily? Have you ever seen a basketball star or the bottomless stamina tank? This wasn't an MVP season. This was performance art. Russell Westbroke gave more shifts than anyone in the history of

“shifts. And I think I think that's accurate. And that's why I enjoyed the MVP season as crazy as it was.”

And I almost think the answer with the GM is like, if he's my number two, I might be able to win a title, right? Okay, so he almost did. And they were right there in 14. They were right there in 16. Very close. And I don't think he was the reason they didn't win. I don't, I also don't think he pushed on the other way either. But if I had to have a 49 win team where he was the only, we're, I could only have one good player. There's only a handful of

guys who could have carried a team like that. And that was kind of his superpower and why he sucked up to evaluate. Because he's on that like Kobe Lebron, the best guys who could have been like, I'm just dragging these guys to 48 wins. He could do it if he wanted to.

times. He would put you, I put the team on the shoulders and just go. And I love he grew up watching Kobe, right? And that later, a Kobe, you could see that in his game. Like, fuck, fuck it. I'm doing

myself like this defiance, which is another word that always comes up with him is this just defiant

attitude. Like, I will, I will win this game. And like I said, that's where I rest. There was no player in the mid-2010s, pre-curry that I was more excited to just watch play basketball, forget the analytics for a little bit. Just to be around it, it was a show. And that's, let's really what this business is about. Yeah, his greatest strength was also his biggest weakness, which is he really always thought he was the best guy in the court. Yeah, always. It didn't

matter who was on there. And by the way, the other player's kind of regarded him as like that dude's all over the map, but that guy's pretty good, man. And that, athletically, there was a moment. I remember writing about it the time the lockout era, that lockout weird lockout season, the 66 game season. When this new wave of young talent was just really starting to arrive. Right. Rose was there. Rose, Westbrook, Chris Paul, Durran. And hard in, you could see the seeds for

Kawaii, there was something there, but this was this whole generation of athletes that had

now arrived. And the guards specifically were like, we'd never seen this before. I've never seen Westbrook

and Rose. I've never seen guards this athletic who could go to the basket like this who played this hard. For the point that you feared for their safety, Rose ended up getting hurt. Westbrook never really did except for the Patrick Beverly one that was bad. Yeah, he had some knee injuries, you know, that Patrick Beverly play. Yeah, he had a bunch of knee procedures. I don't think that was, was this bad. Obviously is what happened to Derek in that same era. But yeah, he put a lot of

force on those knees. It's amazing that he played as long as he did. What's this bill in 18 year run? It's one of the great athletes. Like, I feel like what sport would he not have been awesome at? I remember saying like feet, like football. He had been like an incredible I'm backer or a safety. Like, he would have been one of my descriptions was like, this was

“like Bo Jackson playing basketball. Right. That's how crazy of an athlete he was. And like you”

think about Bow and Monday night football doing these crazy 90 yard runs and then breaking the bat over his knee and baseball. That's what I felt like the bonus version of basketball just a complete spectacle. And again, to give him his flowers 18 years playing that hard. So regularly too. An elite that has coi, Paul George, Joel and B. Like, this guy was reliably going to be there in his prime as a as a producing player. Even played hard in the all-star game.

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“apply scan QR code for more info. All right, five things you need to know about Westbrook. Number one,”

I wrote this in 2012. I'll be interested to see if we would add or 2016, 17, I wrote this. In my lifetime, I have seen only four of their basketball players turn one on three fast breaks into layups whenever they wanted. Young Barclay, young Derek Rose, Jordan and LeBron. Now Russ would be the fifth. Is there anybody since I wrote that? No, I stayed here who would go in that list. I was thinking about it. I'm sure we're going to miss somebody, but maybe like prime yawness who would just

the one on three is that's good. All right, let's add the truck and finish over somebody, but yeah, that's

pretty great list. Yeah. Barclay was always my favorite. I mean, I was always the best thing

about seeing them in person and you get the rebound and be like, "Just go in." Russ would be like, "I'm fucking going. You better get out of my way or you're taking a knee in your chest." So that's one.

“Second thing you need to know, if you do the two-man championship belt”

through the course of NBA history, which I've done, I think him and KD have it in 2014. Because I think LeBron and Wade together 11, 12, 13, then win the title.

2015, Derek got hurt. 2016, it's curry and anybody basically. Curry and clay. Pick any one. Sorry.

But they did have the belt there and we're going to talk about that playoff some more. Peak guards last 20 years, just talking about peaks. Curry, Kobe, Wade, SGA, harded. There's five that were better than Russ. CP3, Nash, Bronson. Do you consider Luka a guard? Yeah, definitely. That's nine. Russ is probably 10th. I don't think I missed anyone. I went through, but the peak rust, I think, was one of the 10 best guards of the last 20 years, but I think he's

10th. All five, all nine of those guys, I think could have been the best guy on a title team or close, right? And I'm not sure Russ could have rest ever won a playoff series after KD left as the best guy. So I think that's a fair list. I think that's fair. 2016, 2011 to the 16 playoffs, third thing

“you need to know. 76 playoff games. They won 10 series in Oklahoma City. They made the finals.”

During that stretch, 25 points, six rebounds, eight assists, 29 percent from three.

And the bad ones were, they blew the three one lead to Golden State. You know, the play game wasn't great down the stretch with him, but the rant, I almost feel like the rant gets a little more blame on at least the last two games. 2012 finals, game five, four for 20, feel-go. And then that series I felt like was after my immune one game four, I think we knew that was probably over. And then 2014, game six,

Western Conference finals against the spurs, eight for 23 seven turnovers. So there were a couple moments where he could have changed the legacy a little bit, did not. But I'm going to slightly hold against them that too much. One of the notes on the 2012 finals, game four, you wrote a bout in that column. There's a jump all at the end, the thunder or down three, there's 14 seconds left. Chalmers gets the ball, the shot clocks at five. They just need to stop them and then

love a chance to tie. And in that moment, rusts, brain fart, fouls, chalmers unnecessarily, but sends them to the line that ice is the game. So it still is best like big playoff performance in my opinion, but it also ends in like sort of a quintessential frustrating, Westbrook outcome,

“or he makes like a brain fart at the end in crunch time in 2012, game four. And that's what I built”

the column around, which was, he was already the polar as a guy at the series, because how he played and gave three, game four had put together the most electric fully seven minutes possible and then made the brain fart. And it was the complete experience. And it's like, yeah, this guy's clearly a really important basketball player. And you kind of saw everything in the same game. Every, everywhere, this career could go, it all happened. 2011, they beat Denver and my

in Memphis and playoff series in game seven and a triple double against Memphis. They lost the Dallas. 2012 swept Dallas beat the Lakers beat the spurs. 2013 was when he got hurt and we're going to go into that later. 2014 beat Memphis in seven. He had a 27, 10, 16 in the game seven in the running for best one. Beat the clippers for two and we'll talk about game five in a second, lost of the spurs for two. And then in 2016 beat Dallas beat San Antonio in six,

25, 7 or 11 for the series. That was where Tony Parker was officially too old. He lost game and tell me God, I was old. And it was all drudges there, but it was kind of a between the two errors. And then they lost the golden state. He was seven for 21 in game seven.

“So that was around that's the closest he's come. The fifth thing you need to know, he was the”

most dissected grant land, ringer, era, player of the last 15 years. I remember fantasy wrote what was this piece called against Russ? Yeah, that was one of them think pieces. We had everyone had their one or two. Anyone who wrote basketball for us had at least one think piece. You started, you started working for a grant land, second half of our grant land run, which was on the four years. But as the advanced metrics and the shot charts was coming and was there better shot chart than

Russ? No, he was one of these guys. It was like, wait a second, when you look at it this way,

this guy's not actually that good at scoring the basketball. His shot charts were always

just eye popping. That era was shot chart sort of the anti-al stars. We're always in Josh Smith. And I had to make a lot of those charts. My tail. This was another one. My tail. Yeah, what's going on

never feared that well. No. But yeah, that first there are the shot charts are like, wow, that guy

misses everything when he takes the three on the left. And eventually the players, I think, got smarter and smarter to look at that stuff. All right, the eternal argument. This is a new category for a book of basketball. The 2017 MVPCs and whether he deserved it or not. Zeclo and I have been talking about this for 10 years. Three people. I wrote a huge call at the end of the year. I picked Harden. Zecloye. Russ ended up winning. Right. And one basically because of this awesome Denver

game he had that everybody was on the fence. And then he played his best possible game on a Sunday,

“and it really kind of kicked it off. But where did you stand on the three? Do you remember?”

I was a new employee of San Antonio Spurs and a very big coi Leonard advocate as an analyst though. I mean, Harden looking back 10 years ago, like that was just an incredible. The Dantoni Harden era was just a earth shattering analytics, extra propaganda. So I think Harden, I'd be on team Harden and this one as much as I love the spurs and coi. I was really torn and you can feel it in the stuff I wrote back then and set on pods. I hated his, I hated what okay see was doing

basketball as I hated it. Again, it stands against everything I like. All right. It was one guy doing everything. Everybody else kind of standing around hoping that they'd have a chance to shoot or have a play run for them. But for the most part, we're just supposed to be the supporting actors in the Russell Westbrook one man show. And I hated it. But I also loved how Hardy played it. It was like Harden to get swept up in it. Like I wasn't against the MVP vote. I wrote a couple things I wrote. Statistically

Westbrook is the biggest ball hug of all time. He's taken the delicate framework of a successful basketball team. Five players working together sharing the ball making each other better. And he's thrown it out the window. He's feeling a thunder team that's a complete opposite of the 77 blazers 86 Celtics, 05 sons and 15 players. Treats his teammates like stage prop. And then I wrote, okay, see his best night tonight. Chance meant serving the NBA's version of in and out's menu. You

could only order Russell Westbrook. They serve Westbrook burgers with fries, so does the milkshakes, get the Westbrook burger, lettuce wrapped, animal style. Just know you're getting Westbrook. Don't ask for anything else. He took 307 more shots that anyone else had season. He missed 14 shots again. He shattered the usage rate record almost 42%. And then had a 57.3% assistant percentage rate. Which was the highest ever. And and then I wrote at the end. I loved watching Westbrook this season.

I loved it. I never thought I'd see a bigot trip trip double sequel again in bubble.

It was the I don't know if he's 40 the 42% usage rate ever eclipse again bill. And the other

“thing that I think is fascinating is hard and was sort of doing a version of this in Houston.”

And I look at these two guys as like biblical brothers, like almost just cane and able. They they grew up together in Los Angeles. I think Westbrook almost goes to Arizona State. Ends up at UCLA as this unheralded freshman. And then ends up becoming a top-top pick in the NBA. Had the chip on his shoulder the whole time. But yet both of them were sort of spamming over and over again that the same kind of basketball. But in Dantonie Hardenworld it was efficient.

So the analyst community was okay with it. And then in OKC it was just like there were a lot of nine

of 24 nights for 11 of 32 from the field. And the passing wasn't always there.

But it was it was crazy to watch. And and I don't think we'll ever see a player with the usage rate of 42 or higher. I just can't see that ever happening again. They somehow won 47 games. They had the 15th ranked offense. Houston had the second ranked offense out here. Harden was doing a lot of the same, you know, had the ball at the time stuff. But did not have close to the same as his percentage. And you could argue it was making guys better. And that was the thing as you

look back. I even wrote this at the time. Why wasn't Steven Adams's devastating OKC as the Capella and Nene Harrell trio was for Houston. Yeah. Why wasn't old depot better on a much better

“team? Why did Dumpere and Elisoba? Why such a wasted rookie year for Demonta Sabones?”

Everyone acts like Russ is playing with the Washington General Seas. Two top three lottery picks and three other lottery picks in the playing rotation. And as cancer was there as well. And that was the year's past like they'd make the trade for Paul George and Sabones and Ola Depot immediately took off the moment they got away from Russ. Yeah. So I don't think history has

I think now when you say that if that's the MVP season happened in 2026, I don't think there's

any way response. No, that's right. And that's again his career coincides with this analytical awakening, this perimeter style revolution that starts with Harden and Courage is just finding

“efficiency in cool new ways. So you're exactly right. I think all the stuff that Jalen Brown”

was going through that would have been times 10 people had been like the number two offense in the league. The discourse has just changed. It's updated for better for worse efficiency is king now. Although you could argue it hasn't changed because the Celtics had the number two offense and ever and he was the Vincent analytics against Jalen Brown. I think with I don't. I think with

Houston versus OKC and 17, the fact that Houston's offense was so good that year, I think would have

met more if we under it was almost like we were the OJ jurors not totally understanding the DNA evidence yet. Now looking back when I looked at the per 100 possession, all that stuff and I was like Houston's offense was just clearly better. But his supporting cast, I think was fairly even to Ryan Anderson, Eric Gordon. Yeah, I forget if it was Capella or Monterey, Newt, Newt, Newt, and Hanhara. Yeah. Yeah. You've got those some of those big men paid. So like you can look at the contracts

downstream of the hard and experiences versus downstream of the Westbrook experience and see that James actually got these dudes paid. But yeah, that that rock is team because we played

“them in the playoffs that year in San Antonio. They were terrifying. Remember that's the series that”

hard and disappeared in the game back and used in Mon New Block. James hardened from the back

in the game in San Antonio. But that team was terrifying. And I believe they beat OKC in the first

round of that playoffs in 2017 too. Yeah. And in hard and outplayed Westbrook for ultimate like now I wish we could vote for the MVP now sort of situation. It was a classic sometimes that happens. I have a set defining game section. I knew what I had. I was interested though. I maneuvered the sections could be brought to you by chat GPT. The both of them is podcast. They ask sponsor and chat GPT where help me figure this out. I asked them what was Russell Westbrook's defining game.

What do you think the answer was? For me, it should be game six of the 2016 NBA Western Conference finals. The play game. Okay. Yeah. Chat GPT disagreed. It's response. If you mean the single game that best defines Russell Westbrook's career, I'd pick April 9 2017 Thunderverse Nuggets the line 50.16 rebounds 10 assists in a 36-foot buzzer beating three to win 106105. Now that was a pretty good answer because that was the game that won in the MVP. We were all in the

“fence. That game happened on a Sunday. I think it was on national TV. And Russell was in 50 16 and 10”

and a 36-footer to win it. I think it was home. And after that game, everyone was like, all right, I give up and he grabbed a lot of votes with that game. It's interesting that that was a regular season game that that they suggest. Yeah. Not a play. I don't know. Are we doing sliding doors later? We're doing a whole bunch of them. Yeah. Anyway. Thanks to chat GPT where company work even harder. Put chat GPT to work on your most ambitious ideas of projects. Try chat GPT

work today available to plus some pro plans. Now we're going to what's aged the best. I mentioned that 266. The key, his career, he averaged 26 and six. 700 plus games. Only nine guys have done that. LeBron, Jordan, Harden, Bird, Yokeage, Drexler, Yannis, Westbrook and Rick Berry. And then I mentioned that other statue, the 20k points, 6k rebounds, 6k assists. Yeah. So I have that. And then the other would say it's the best. The counting stats of age grade for him.

Y'all know KC and romanticizing that team. I know John, our friend Jonathan Abrams has a new book that he wrote that's coming out pretty soon about that. That okay, Sierra. And that team, like I just, I look back at the 2012 finals and that 11 playoffs. And just watching these guys that we all liked and not knowing what was going to be ahead of them. And then, of course, it didn't turn out the way we all thought for variety reasons. But I was going back and watching

some of the clips of them in the 2012 finals when they beat the Lakers in 2011 and just how athletic and awesome that team was, I think that's age pretty nicely now. It's like one of team of that

Because I can't believe it's real. Like the 3MVPs, all babies, and that leading together again, like the spur sort of right now feel kind of like that. But that's really rare.

“For me, it is, after he was, I think announcing his retirement, he claimed he was the best rebound”

in guard of all time. And I think he's got to claim to that bill and you're the historian here, but I did a little research in the player tracking areas, far in a way, has the most rebounds of anybody who plays the guard position. James Harden is up there. Josh Hart is up there. Luke Adonciac is a guard. I think Oscar has to be up there. Yes. So I think that's going to age really well. I think, you know, rebounds, they're not as sexy. People overlook them all the time,

analytically, but as a defending guard, if you can come in and grab the board and get that stop for

your team. And he had that as well as anybody. I always liked that about Kobe who was, you know,

like a five or six-a-game rebounder normally, but in a big game, he'd go get him. Right. You know, in the Westburg was so quick to the ball at all times. I think, you know, there's definitely some padded stat stuff with them VPCs. And they would be, I mean, this is stuff that happened. I don't think it's a conspiracy. Like Adams would box his guy out, so Russ could come in and get foul shot rebounds. And I think, okay, see, it was kind of understood if there's any foul shot rebounder

goes to Russ and little stuff like that. But just day-to-day, we two-week game the game season season. Like he was just so quick, just grab the boards. I think he probably is. Yeah.

“Yeah, I'm incredible. I think that's a good way to put it. That and then the, what do we say?”

Six guys ever went on three fast breaks by themselves. I think we're as two things. All right, biggest what if sliding doors moment? It's crazy. Because I have three. We didn't talk about this. How many did you have? I have one. Well, give me your one. Boyle that earlier. And we can frame it either as the 2016, a lot of those two games together or the clay game. But after, okay, so fast forward, we know Durant goes to Golden State after a Cleveland

Beats Golden State. If okay, see, holds on. They're up eight points going to the fourth quarter of Game 6. They're up three points with a few minutes left in Game 6. Obviously, clay does this thing. If they can just win that game, Bill Simmons, they win the Western Conference. They would have

ended Tim Duncan's career in the second round. They would have beaten that Golden State team

“in the Western finals. And then I'd ask you, do you think they would have beaten that Cleveland team?”

I think they would have been favorites. They would have so much confidence coming out of those two wins. And that for me is the clear sliding doors moment. We already said he played one finals. That would have been a second one. I think they would have at least had a puncher's chance of winning it. Maybe even in the favorites. Does Durant leave even if they make the finals in Beat Golden State? So for me, it's that. I had three in that was my number one. Almost like a hockey. It's my number one

star of the game. I went to Game 5 when they were up three one in the series. And they just sucked. And Durant was bad. Those three Durant games were not good. I don't know. I still don't know what happened on those last three. But in the crowd got into it and they beat them. But I still felt like they were going to go back to OKC and finish it because it was clear curry wasn't 100% and OKC had it was very similar in so many different ways to the paths in 07 with the streak.

And the pressure week to week of that streak. I just felt at the worst seemed like worn out playoffs finals the year before they win the title. That's 100 game run. Then they start the next season. Steve Kerr misses the first two months. Then you have the 25 game winning streak which became a real thing. And then they're going for 73 wins. The whole time in the 70 wins they get what was the bulls were at the bulls were 70 to 10. Yes. So the league is 73. And they're going for that

when they should have been and I just thought it took them out. I thought they were going back to OKC and it was done. Clay goes nuts. And they still had a chance to win. And it's we did a podcast about and the book of basketball feet a while ago. It's an amazing amazing rewatch. You're watching history change

over the course of 20 minutes. Yeah. It's an incredible rewatch. First of all the guys all look like

babies. Which is crazy. But then you look at the play by play and it is not kind to Russell Westbrook down the stretch. Three turnovers in the definitive two-minute stretch of the game. He blows a

clock. And then you go to Steve Kerr side of the court and these guys are poised. The ball is moving.

It's finding open shooters and it is. It was history defining. So for me it's a clear number one.

“What are your other sliding doors moments though? Well with that what if they do win?”

I don't know what happens to Durant if they lose the finals to Cleveland. Right. Because now it's like, all right. Now I'm going to go to go and state who I just beat that feels weird. I guess it was weird that he went there after getting beat by them. Maybe he goes there anyway. If they win the finals does he leave? You can't. You can't leave at that point. You're going to win the NBA title and then go. He probably would have been finals MVP. I would have

guessed right. How many times have we seen a finals MVP? I mean, Kauai and Toronto, I guess, but that was a weird situation. So how many times do we see a finals MVP just be like, I'm out of here. That's summer. Who'd have been a great battle? Yeah, that's the number one. My number two was the hard and trade obviously. I don't. Now maybe the hard and trade plays out.

“We always romanticize that at Grant Land and eat. I was one of the worst trades of all time.”

Maybe after two years that team falls apart anyway. Right. And maybe that maybe hard and just not happy being like, I'm not manager juggling. I should have my own team and maybe that falls apart. At least that could have traded him for more than they traded for him at the time. But that's we talk about he never got back to the finals. That's one of the reasons because

the hard and trade, which still never made sense because it was a four million dollar difference.

Yeah. And you get Kevin Martin in there and it's just they're still really good. They were really contender for years to come. But then what happens? James Harden becomes the best offense of player in the league or arguably multiple seasons in a league that has Steph Curry and his prime. And that was you traded him for Kevin Martin and Jeremy and Adam's pick. That ended being the trade. But like you look at 13 and 14 and that leads to my third would have would

Beverly taking out his knee in the play after game two. They're playing Memphis. They had a real chance even after that trade of just winning the title that year anyway. If you go back and look at the records in the stats, both of those Katie and Russford to the best six or seven guys in the league that year. Sane and Tonyo had that 2012. It was such like a punch in the face that they'd you know and they kind of really backed back but they weren't I don't think anybody

“thought they were the favorites come out of the least at West I think people were maybe thinking”

more like okay see or the clips the Warriors weren't ready yet. But Beverly in one of the cheaper plays of the last 20 years awful. Really like just a shipway and Hertz Westbrook and knocks them out. So you know they have that they've 12 they have they didn't get you know we've it's been swept under the rug it was one of the last turner moments but the officiating in the finals and the 2012 finals is a disgrace. It's like I don't think they got a 50 50 call for five games.

2013 Beverly Hertz Westbrook, 2014 which we're going to get to in a second was probably their best

chance and then the clay game you know I'm just never happens. It's hard to come out of the West

LeBron James. Yes. He retreats back to the Eastern Conference learn that over the streets after the last eight years in LA. I mean you have pop of it dunk in genobly in one corner than you have this curve Steph Curry Clay Thompson juggernaut obviously that Dan Tony stuff and Houston it was it was really hard for that thunder team to get even to the finals with these other juggernauts in their way. Would say just the worst we mentioned a few of them already. I mean one of them

he played with Durant for the first eight they they coincided for eight years including Durant Semby pieces and and half of Durant's prime basically he played with James Hardin Houston when Hardin was still one of the best offense supporters in the league and it got very close a couple times played with LeBron and AD and the Lakers. He played with Paul George on the Thunder in 2018 and then and 2019 and then he played with Joker. It's played with some really good players.

Yes, that's true. One final thing ever is tough for somebody who's supposed to be in the top 60. Anzaclubine that last year don't forget him. Right and Bradley Beale. He was Joe House reading for him for a year that counts. That was actually one of the cool Westbrook seasons, right? So he what I was saying is 2010's he's an icon he's like an eight nine time all star in the 2010's that year in Houston people forget the pandemic comes and just destroys America and the whole world of

basketball obviously and and he had figured it out with the Antonio that we're playing the small ball

center and and Antonio found out how to use him. He's stopped taking threes and jumpers and just third team all in B.A. Kirk. Yeah, that weird pandemic because it was the pandemic. Yeah, I barely remember the see there as as I've said over and over again. I don't remember anything from 2020, but they played the lakers in the playoffs. And guess what? It wasn't working. It was Russell Westbrook as the small ball center against AD and LeBron and AD playing about as well as

has ever played and then they had other guys to bring in and all of a sudden that strategy was not

“working the same way. It was a gimmick. I think they felt like they had taken the Chris Paul pieces”

far as it could go. I'll still never understand Darrell making that trade. But that's a great. That's a

great point. That's a great point. I still want to know who made that trade. That's one of the craziest trades ever more of what's aged the worst. We mentioned the advanced stats. Did you have more advanced stats stuff for him? Well, I would have that for what's aged the worst for me as the shot chart guy. It's clearly the shooting behavior. The shooting numbers. A few stats here jump off the page bill in the player tracking era. He has taken the fourth most shots of everybody in the last 13

season. He has the lowest scoring efficiency of the top 50. He's taken the 24th most threes in that player tracking area. Again, that's 13 seasons. He has the lowest 3 point percentage in the entire top 50 of that group. For me, the most frustrating thing for him and the thing that age

the worst is his stubborn insistence on this jump shot. It should have never been a big part of

his game. He was the best attack part of his era at times. When he would rise up as somebody who gained playing against him, when he would rise up for a jumper, I can tell you everybody in the organization on the other side was like, thank you. Thank you for doing that because I don't want you to get anywhere near the paint or the cup and get foul. Please take that jump shot. That was something I wrote about. One of the rest pieces I wrote about. The smart teams

versus the dumb teams, how they defended them. And the smart teams are basically wall them off. They go under on every screen. They would push him toward shooting between 20 and 25 feet and they were delighted when he did it. And then on fast breaks, they made sure they got back. If we miss, we have to get back or he's just going all the way down. And the dumber teams didn't think the same way and he would get a lot of easy ones. But the smart teams

are like, please shoot. I mean, I had for a what saves the worst. His three point shooting

“played 135 career playoff games. What do you think he shot from three career plans?”

It's dude. Well, I know he's a career regular, I mean, I think he was under 30 or over 30 versus this the Mendoza line. Yeah. Modern MBA. The modern MBA. Under 30%. I was I'll say under because yeah, there's a lot of bad shooting games in those playoffs. It's perfect. He was 29.9 percent. So he has Mendoza line. He was 70% of his three. And if you were rooting for him or

better you get some and he was taking a three, you never thought it was going in and you were happy

that he did it. But there's the thing dude, one one layer on that. If he only shot good shots in rhythm behind the arc, it would have been 33. 34. Oh, to impossible. Right. Oh, my check phrase right. Want a game? It's like, what are you doing? Dude, like, what are you doing? They're 16 on the shot clock. Like, what are you doing? So that's it. That's for me. What age the worst is always going to be that kind of thing. Yeah.

All's to the wall. Russ from 2017 to 126. One, two playoff series last nine. 2019 rockets. 2025 nuggets were his wins. And he was 19 seven and six. They're in that straight. It's almost like the second part of his career. 38 percent field goal. He played for O. K. C. Houston, Washington, both LA teams Denver and Sacramento over a 70 year span. He turned into Phil Negro there at the end. Everyone thought everyone got excited for him

for two months. And then, but this was role player Russ was never going to be a thing that made sense.

“No, for Denver year was sort of intriguing. I think that was the last stand. If can we”

see him off the ball and Joker making him look good? But then again, the advanced stuff just Denver was a much better team when he was nowhere near the basketball court that year, 24, 25. And then I mentioned from O. K. C. just not wanting to double down on a good point. Where's like sorry. Yeah. Like, like, so how many guys can you think of off the top of your head

he didn't have a choice. There's so many of these guys that would come back for this one year in that beloved uniform and just, you know, stood at the end of the bench and helped the younger

“guys. But that was not an option. I think that's a great point. Yeah. If you're a bench player,”

you're basically your cook and add a restaurant once a week, make it a good meal, but not cooking

every day. And if you're an awesome chef, you could cook every day and carry a restaurant. And Russ was somewhere between an awesome chef and a diner chef. And he's like, you'd want to go the rest diner, right? Every night like the milkshakes are really good. I probably shouldn't have this patty belt. Yeah. But the service, the servers might be a little rude. You're not winning the James Beard Award with the rush at the, too early, too late or just right,

is the next category. So, what would you go for for here? I was surprised. I have an obvious answer here. I think he's clearly too late. I think he would have gotten away with a lot of the stuff that, like, I'm sorry, the shot chart and the analysts and all this stuff was, it was the worst for him. Like, you think Antoine Walker or Allen Iverson, or even Kobe to some extent, like, they got away with some things that would not have flown just 10 years later. And that's when Russell,

“I think he got caught in the game, began a little smarter analytically, a little more thorough.”

And so for me, if he had done this in the 80s, 90s or even the first part of the 2000s, he would have

been incredible and beloved, 2008 draft for him. Yeah. I went 12 years to late.

I think if he was in the Kobe draft and he got to play during, like, when the, when the scoring was really down, when we had less good players. Yes, that's right. My, like, Jared Stackhouse averaged 30 a game one year. Like, during that era, I think he would have been believable. We would have been like, oh, that's such a great point. Plus, you weren't expected to shoot three, right? Now, he wouldn't have been able. He wouldn't have been the, the culture of the three points shot didn't even exactly.

We were not picking apart those ever since seasons when he had, you know, the big usage rate and was shooting 38% every playoff series, but in care. No, the pre money ball and he would have been, he would have been a huge all star scoring champion with this guy would have been great. He got to

“go see Westbrook. It might not have won, but I think it would have escaped some of that sort of scrutiny”

that nasty nerdy scrutiny that that I think will always be part of the Western experience. Sorry,

guys. That leads to nerd corner. I sent this to already. I wrote in that 2017 piece. I said, though, there's still time to do this. If we created a stat called the Westbrook and just added usage rate and assistant percentage together, assistant percentage, just those two things, the sixth rate, assistant percentage usage rate together, Westbrook in the MVP season was a 99. His usage rate was 41.7 and his assistant percentage was an all-time record. It was like 57.2.

To put that in perspective, the next guy in the list was 2017 hard in an 84.7. 2018 rest was 83.9. Oh, 9. Chris Paul 82. 2016 rest. 81.2. 2018 hard in 81.2. And then 80 and down is a little more realistic. I love the fact that he almost got to 100. So if you made the Westbrook a stat, like he literally peaks at the highest version of the stat with a 99, the fact that that's 15% higher than anyone who's ever played basketball is fucking

bakers to me. Yeah. And I think I texted you back. This is the ball hog over replacement or something. It's just like this is the most heliocentric shot-out set part now for for that term. It's one when when when the hero ball got slightly more educated, it became heliocentric basketball. And that Westbrook season is the epitome of that spam this over and over and over again into your point. What I want to play with him, heard you say this before. I feel like I'm a prop. I feel like I'm

standing around. Oh, but every once in a while here comes a brilliant past the corner and you better make the three because that's the only touch you're getting for the next 13 minutes. And that's the problem. Like Joker was an 80.7 this last season. But it was doing too much. And by the way, that team did a make, did a make around three of the playoffs. Like that's right. When you play this way, Tray Young was an 80.1 and 2002. When you're that reliant on one guy, there's just no success for

it. If you're trying to actually win forestry playoff France. And just for forever, it does not work. The Bronson Westbrook comparisons are really interesting to me, just because of contemporary sort of resency bias with with Bronson but like his usage in the playoffs bill was 32 or 33. Right. And it felt like he was he was doing everything for the next down the stretch and all of the

Yeah. If you go to among Bronson's basketball reference right now, he was in the playoffs 32.6 percent. And his 6 percentage was 27.7 percent. Yes. And it was a good basketball team. And OGN and Obi won a game for them. And when a matter and you know, towns was great and

“bridges and heart were part of it. To your point, I think it's like it's always going to be this”

beautiful sport where the guys come together and become something greater than the some of the

individual parts. And when you're playing that heliocentric style, it feels like that cohesion never

really materialized with. Yeah, Shay, what was Shay? Shay is probably the closest to getting away with this. But even he was 32 percent usage 35.8 assists in the playoffs. And the year they won the title is 32.9 and 30.6. So I think that's it's around there that seems like the right area. You go back and look at bird magic in the 80s. And they're used to trade as like 24. Right. You know, it just was inconceivable. Somebody would have the ball that much. And it's one of

things. That's crazy. We've overreacted it. Like what happens in baseball with these walks and walks and home runs and no other outcome. We'll see one of one is the next question. That's yeah. And this is where I come back to pro Westbroke. Like again, this is an absurd business where we watch other men play basketball. And he was my favorite player to just watch. It wasn't my favorite player analytical. I mean, right. Yeah, you just like if you were if you were

at a game for two hours with your friends, like this is one of the five guys on earth that you'd want to watch do this thing. And he like you brought it up a few times, man. This guy was on the floor. He was in the crowd. He was attacking the stanchion before the game. Yeah, ultimately his legacy is

part just entertainer. And in a league where you don't always get that with some of the other

“star players. So I think he's one of one and always remember that. Like just the entertaining”

aspect of watching Westbroke play hoops. Yeah. And seeing him in person the way he cared himself, which was like I've ever seen cared himself, though, a KG. There's only a couple guys that just you're like, man, game hasn't even started yet. That guy's fucking crazy. That looks like he's like about to go to war. It'll be like game 52 against a 20 and 30 clipper timp. Some things I wrote about Westbroke. He's basically Jim Brown 50 years later with basketball shorts on there's a

column where I wrote, I just compared him to team wolf and a poison movie character who uses so much of her brain that she becomes a robot and turns invisible. That was another calm. I wrote the Homicidely Competitive Legacy Baton since 1990. MJ, Iverson, Garnet, Kobe, then Westbroke. Nobody else in the NBA gives even half as much of a shit as Rustus. Like you actually fear for his safety. I call them a tirelessly energetic freak maniac lunatic who just chucked 120

ounces of coffee. And then I wrote, only Westbroke makes you feel like you're watching a WWE star sprint into a crowded row, rumble ring and immediately start clearing it out. He needs his own entrance music. These are just that. This is the Rustus Westbroke Legacy. This is fucking lunatic. It was great. I loved it. I have no notes on that one. That is perfectly said. An intentional comedy wrinkle was the way he dealt with the media was my answer for this.

Basically, he didn't like any media members would look through them and pass them.

If you've ever been on the other end of Rustus Westbroke noticing you realizing who you were and then just kind of looking through your forehead, it's quite an experience. And yet, it was like it just had no time for it. And yet, all the people that played for him, except for a select few were all like, this guy's the greatest guy in the planet. I fucking love Rustus Westbroke. Like you could see when he retired.

It was just an awesome teammate. I had no time for anybody else, but his media interactions.

“I think we're the funniest thing about him. Oh, I had to interview him once for Grantland,”

2014, 15 near the end. And man, he did not want to be around me. No time for that. Well, he was, and I respected him for it. Yeah, there I was in Oklahoma. And it was tough. The other unintentional comedy thing I think the bear's mentioning is, I'm not sure there's not my department. Maybe Wesley Morris, who probably did a think piece on this exact thing for us back in the day. Some of the fashion

stuff before a game. I feel like he, he was the Bill Russell of bringing it to another era. The walk into the arena. And some of that shit looked as good as anything I've ever seen in my life.

I'm not sure we're going to age very well. And dare I say, might be funny for other people to

“look at. Oh, he was always pushing the envelope. And he was like, what the, what is he wearing?”

But I have to tell him it was cool. I have to tell him was just, you didn't know what was going on. But yeah, and he could pull that shit off more than like Kyle Kuzma, who tried to, he, he had swagger walking through those tunnels in ways that like everybody has to respect. He was one of the coolest men in America there in the 2010s in like respect for trying, but man, that's tough to pull off some of those looks. He had that swagger and college. I was really into that draft.

And Westbrook was my sleeper in that hole. Dr. I don't say that. It's like, oh, I had rustbrook. But he really was like, I was like, I love this guy. I don't know what he is, but he's going to be an awesome pro. But I thought he was going to be like the 17th pick in the draft. Like I thought it was going to be one of those post lottery. Oh my god, you get this guy like he's going to be like a

cropped like Tony Allen on defense, but like a great. I never saw what was going to happen. And then

they're in the course of basically March madness through the draft. He started going up and he kept going up and he got all the way to fourth. And I was like, I love this guy. I don't think he should go fourth. But part of it was the swagger and the athleticism because he had it that one year, you see, like. And again, drafted by one of the smartest draft personnel guys, the league scene and a long time in San Presti. But I would say Kevin Love always struck me with this story. Like when they were both

“at UCLA, I think Kevin Love was a freshman in Russ was a sophomore. And Kevin was this hot”

shit like all American and Russell was like a local. Yeah, barely made UCLA because Jordan format left for the 2006 drafts. So they had a slot. And when he got to the first practice, Kevin Love was like, oh my god, I'm not even the best player on this team. And that that time was like this unknown kid from L.A. That's three star recruit. Yeah. And and Kevin was just like, holy shit, this guy is great. Right. And then yeah, your later he's the the number four pick

in the draft. I think Kevin Love was was number one was that the same draft. Yeah, it was OJ Mayo, Kevin Love. I think Kevin Love might have gone fifth. Oh, did he go third? He was, it was, yeah, was one of it. Was that was then Kevin Love in that draft? He was, yeah, he just looked like Dick in the box here, a guy at that time. Kevin Love, the chin strap. That's all I remember. Kevin Love was another one. Now he was, I don't know how many more pounds that ended up being as a pro.

Yeah, Kevin Love was fifth. OJ Mayo, third, Michael Beasley second. I mean, Miami passed on

Russell Westbrook and Kevin Love in that draft. But that's a Kevin Love always had the rebounding.

We're just like that guy's that guy is a guaranteed awesome rebounder in the pros. I don't care what else happens. And then Westbrook had the athleticism. We're like, worst-case scenario. That guy's going to be one of the best athletes in every gaming place. All right, we're wrapping up with the finding playoff moment. We mentioned the 2012 game for finals. To me, in a good way, it's the 2014 Quippers, okay, see game five, the Chris Paul collapse.

Seriously, it's tied to two. It's in OKC. OKC's down 101.88 with four minutes left. I would highly encourage people to go and watch this on YouTube again. They're down seven with 49 seconds left. Call time out. Katie hits a crazy three over Big Baby. Quippers come down for some reason. Jamal Crawford's like, I got this. And Mrs. Ashot, OKC gets it long passed down to Durant. Now it's a two-point game. And by the way, that was

Westbrook with the rebound football pass the Durant. Two-point game, Chris Paul gets the ball, bringing in and Westbrook goes in to do whatever. And Westbrook, Chris Paul's trying to get the foul. But like, I don't say the biggest fuck up of his career. And Russ sends up stealing the ball, goes out of bounds. But it's OKC ball. And then Chris Paul fouls rust on the three. He makes all three free throws. And then Chris Paul misses to lose the game. But we'll really clutch free throws,

clutch steel, clutch pass rebound. But if you just watch that game, we're like, all right, there's

a game when, and then he flipped it. And that was kind of, the Quippers never got that close again.

“Did not come up with Docs Hall of Fame speech. I don't think, I think if anyone brought”

that game up to him, he would have turned in a jelly. JJ Renex, too. Yeah, I think it's interesting. When I think of Russell, he's defined by this this incredible explosive frenetic energy. Yeah. And when he was able to channel it bill in moments like that, it was the coolest thing in the NBA for a number of years. But when he was unable to control it, even in the form of his jumpshot, the power he would explode off the ground with, I think, was too much to have the touch

cost him a lot of times was as his inability to control his own explosiveness, whether it's mental

explosiveness or physical. But in that moment, I thought he put it all together as a defender and just made the play of the game. It was like a guy who only drove one way in the highway.

“Yeah. That was it. He was great if you want to go 88 by 88 to 100 miles an hour.”

And try to get to one place to another. But then if you actually had to do a little more driving, I got a little dicey over a generator properly rated. How's he rated bill? You're the guy here. How is he rated? Honestly, this is the toughest one. I think you could have in one of the reasons I wanted this podcast. I think he's a whiff overrated. But I also think he might be a little underrated too because we have so many years now of the

different stage of his career Westbrook that kind of people forget now. You know, I hate to do the hashtag people forget, but people do forget. You know, it's like pot like NBA TV was running game for the 2008 finals when the Celtics came back against the Lakers. Yeah. And Paul Pierce is just guarding Kobe that whole game. Paul Pierce could guard LeBron and Kobe and was in big games against those dudes and big series and beat those guys, right? Yeah. And then years later,

he has that quote where he's like, I was better, you know, I was right there with Wayne Wayne and

“people like, what? That's crazy. It's like, all right, it's actually, you know, I think Wade had a”

better career have him higher in the pyramid, but it's not insane to think Paul Pierce, all the stuff he could do in the way he got better in big games and all the different types of guys he could guard and how malleable he was with teammates. Like, Paul Pierce was really good, but people just kind of forgot and I wonder if that's happened in Westbrook a little bit. I was watching that too. I mean, speak to August, there's nothing on the right. Nothing that

come back and I watched Paul like attack the teeth of the defense on one side and then guard Kobe on the other side and well-deserved finals MVP in 2008 for the truth there. Look, as the analytics guy, I think the classic response here is he's overrated. But I asked you where he's rated. I know we'll get to your pyramid ranking, but you know, there are two Russell Westbrook's. There is the moment he gets traded from the thunder, leaves the thunder. The nine years before that, he is a perennial

all-stars putting up crazy stats. They're always making deep runs in the playoffs. He won an MVP

in two scoring championships in a cis championship. If we're talking about that portion of this man's career, you know, maybe he's underrated because of what follows. The 2020, he becomes this journey man. Like it never works in Houston or really Washington. Obviously, Denver, Sacramento, Lakers,

“Clippers, there is that. And I think that is the exact right answer. But the Lakers thing”

really hurt him too with not being able to fit in at all with AD and LeBron, which I think LeBron shared some culpability in, but it was just such a bad fit. Yeah. Instead of the 9010 thing, it felt like. If it had worked, it would have been the perfect way. And that's the last thing I had on him. Jason Kid was Russell Westbrook at one point and sort of aged gracefully into this,

okay, I'm Durk's second banana here, or even third banana, in some cases, and started to be

able to shoot and change this game. And if I was like a title, by the way, he became, he was probably the second best guy on that milestone. Yeah. So if Jay Kid were with the Westbrook in LA, I think he would have found a way to be like, all right, let me just figure out how to contribute here and get out. And there's a fair criticism of the second half as his career. He was again, too defiant to sort of slide into that tertiary or later role stage in his career. It's a great

point. Jay Kid's the perfect example. Also, Jay Kid was good enough to lead a team to the finals, right? Yeah. I'm not quite good over. And you think like, all right, who is the second best teammate? It wasn't anybody better or worse than, you know, some of Russell's best stuff. And so anyway, I have, and I have Kate Webb. I have a head of Westbrook. I have Westbrook in the pyramid. I haven't 58. So top 60. I have him just ahead of some like the busher and how Greer and cutting him and

Elvin Hayes, like these guys who were really good, I couldn't put him ahead of Nate Thurmond. Now everybody's listening. This is like, what the fuck's going on? Nate Thurmond, what part of the podcast is this? I just open you don't ask me any Nate Thurmond questions. I have a lot of hot,

bone to over on the all NBAs because he's going to get's will and Russell and Karim and Willis related. It's like a disaster. But was really good. Clyde Drexer, I have slightly ahead of them. West on south, Gary Peyton, Paul Pierce, and Patrick Ewing, who, these are our level two for me.

“That's like those are the last guys on level two. And I think Russ is right in that area and”

probably behind the last few I mentioned, but around 58. But some of the guards you mentioned, I could, I could have quibbles with Peyton and who was the other guard in that list? Clyde Drexer. Drexel, yeah, I think I bet there's a bunch of people in OKC like, now being like, what the hell are you talking about, dude? Like, this is an MVP. Clyde Drexel, and Peyton. Second MVP, 92, top 5 MVP twice, second best guy in a champion team, right?

We saw him in the twice. Second, he goes to the rockets. They win the title is the second best guy. I don't know if Russ, if Russ goes to the team, 95 rockets, I don't know if, and then he was the best player in two finals runners-ups, where he was the best guy. Well, stream team, and he's like,

he was a incredible college player too, and I don't know if that matters in the in the pyramid or not.

For me, it's like the playoff, the playoff ceiling has to factor in with this. Yeah. Westbrook got to play with one of the best 20 to 25 guys ever in Durant, and was only able to win one final game with him, but he basically won the lottery at Durant. If you're picking any forward of the LeBron to play with for the last 20 years, you're probably

“picking Durant. So at that, I think, you know, it's hard. We've had 80 years of players.”

Like, you're one of the 60 best players ever. That's a real achievement, you know, and, but I do think the playoff successes were false apart a little. Anyway, Kurt Goldsburg, that was wonderful. Did you have anything else before we go? I know it's dead for MBA. Well, I'm working on this new idea. I need to run a value. I think the age of player empowerment is dead. I think we are now referencing your previous podcast in the age of owner empowerment.

And I wanted to test this idea out with you, starting with players like Victor Wemm and Yama taking less money. That is crazy. LeBron James, I think his decision in 2010 sort of starts

player empowerment for for for for some cases, and then going to fill it for 4 million. I think the

second apron itself is proof that the owners really won this latest negotiation, the media deals, expansion, and BA Europe. But this is my my my my take on working on this piece for the ringer. I wanted to get you in on it. Do you think it's fair to classify 2026 as the age of owner empowerment in the NBA? Are you saying owners have more power or they become more of a

“wild card? I think I'm saying the same power they've had. I think the difference is”

the intentions of an owner feels like it's starting to shift. Well, I think that's part of it. I feel like the teams are financial instruments now more than ever before. I think they were these heirloom investments, these community heirlooms that dudes would you know, if you were a rich guy and you owned a basketball team 20 years ago you would get made fun of. There's these great

mark Cuban quotes where he's like I bought the maps in the late 90s at $200 some million dollars

15 years later nobody would buy the New Orleans team for that same price. The valuations had stayed the same and now we're at 12 and a half billion and I think more and more of these people. I so I to answer your question, I think the intent of the owner says changed the I think the type of human being that's owning the seams has changed and I think it's trickling all the way into the league and that's sort of what I'm getting out with this concept. Yeah it's weird because it's not

like owners wherever, you know, kind of the ideal, you don't want the idea to be personally for a basketball franchise they would be hit or miss, right? You'd have some people that were jackasses or they got left the team. There are a couple other people like that really cared or rich people that felt like the McAirston and Miami is a good example, right? That guy's rich but also really loves owning the Miami heat and wants to be part of it. Peter Holt was like this for the spurs. Like there's

we've had some good ones. Dr. Bus was like that and I don't think that air is over. Even like the guy who bought the Celtics Chism really it's grew up with the team loves the team. He also I think made a pretty good purchase because you could argue for what they got. That looks great. So there's still a couple of people coming in that seem like they have good intentions. I don't the the part that's weird to me is if you're going to spend this much money on teams you're going to

want to make money back. You're not you know you're going to have to you've spent so much you can't

going to like the expansion is a good example. They're all going to vote for it because it's an

extra 500 billion a team and be a Europe WMBA expansion. Anyway they can carve the cat to have more

carved the cat. What does it carve the cat? I don't know. I'm like the obsession. Like the obsession lady. Anyway they can carve the pie for more money grow the pie. Yeah, whatever however you want to say it

“it feels like they are now everything is on the table. How do we make more money that's all we care about?”

And that's I think you're right. So I don't know if that's empowerment it's more like there's there's a word out with the word is it's it's it could the word I want to use as corrosive. Yeah it's a culture shift in sort of the identity of the league and I think it's an allegory to what's happening in America it's some extent but we don't need to get into that as it relates to the economics of the NBA I think it's a fascinating moment and you know it explains a lot

of the bigger trends like for us in taking less carolent than he towns the second apron like it trickles all the way down into the things that we do really care about as NBA fans. So I think it's interesting whether you're talking about the Portland Trailblazers or the LA Lakers it seems like we're talking about owners a lot more than I would like to rain yeah the public basketball the one was concerning because he bought the team but clearly just because he wanted grab a team and we

“had this in the past but it was always because it was a good deal like pair about the grizzlies”

because it was like wow that's all you're asking a rod and and Lori bought the T Wolves because

lentaro was willing to sell it to them for 1.5 billion they were smart enough to figure out how to

structure it but now we're getting into like what are the bulls worth apparently there's this guy who bought a piece of the bulls who has he's the one that if they sell the bulls and he has very similar to Mark Walther with the Lakers if the bulls get sold he's got first dibs on it but you can argue the bulls are a 10 billion dollar team now and that's probably the next one people will be circling yeah when now when you have billions of dollars at stake like

even the guy you're the Celtics guys like oh I just bought this for six like I could sell this for 10 tomorrow like this it's a crazy delta and the part that I don't even really fully understand because I did this is not my world but the tax advantages you get makes all of them want to continue to park their money in teams because you can just write off all these losses and do all this chicaneery with the numbers to make it to make it worth and it

“helps out your whole portfolio and that's how they look at it now I guess I'll end with this it likes”

when NBA discourse was about arguing about Russell Westbrook as opposed to talking about the fumes of the billionaire class yeah well this Lakers things nuts like even since I did the stuff about it my podcast the other day we found so much more like it really feels like this is now veering toward could this be in the made-off area could this be in the you know I've been boasting era could is something like genuinely legal happening was it happened in this whole time

and I don't really understand that world that Katy Baker wrote a great piece about it there's some good coverage on it but if it turns out that this guy Mark Walter was

really playing a show game basically yeah taking your life insurance was like it mean for the Dodgers yeah

but basically stealing from people's grandparents to pay for sports teams anyway kind of sobering sobering way to end a really good really good podcast segment Kurt Goldsbury thanks for having me on bill we should mention with there's a big Austin extra begins of that I'm not going to be able to go to but we're when is that knocked over October 23rd the sports summit yeah once you're playing the rock it's Katy back on campus

then we have Ole Miss playing UT a manning fest and then we have F1 so we're going to get Brian Curtis and Van Laitton out here at least the maybe you but you're going to. Van Laitton does about well yeah I can't but we'll we'll send some good ringer people. Good to see you Kurt Goldsbury hope you enjoyed thank you for taking a break and I and come back with Van and Chris. All right we did rewatchables today and we thought we'd do 15 minutes on sports stuff because Van Laitton

is here and Chris Ryan is here. Van you want to talk college football? Let's do it. You're one of the hosts of the ringer tailgate. Best show on the ringer one of the best shows ever. Ever. I'm locked in on UCLA I have the over on six and a half wins and seven half wins. Okay I'm all in like I chest knees there. What are the big story lines though give us the top three. Casual college football fans which we care about. Casual college football fans that you know they're

not a lot of huge story lines really going into the season obviously. When I guess get get some of the tops. When I guess well is the number one storyline all the macro changes happening to the administration of the sport and I L who's in trouble for what whether they'll break off and start

college football some story lines are Lincoln Riley at USC. This be a prove it year for him where

they're not you think that it is or not obviously laying kiffin at LSU. I would say USC versus UCLA potentially being revived. That sounds like a fun storyline story line for you. Yeah not no one really that's one of to me one nationally nobody cares. That's actually nobody cares but most of the story lines in college football have had to do with like the Brendan source of the situation and the conversation about gambling and college football. The congressional involvement in college

sports act. Nick Sabin and some of the things that he's been saying about the actual future of how the sports we're going to have been talking about that for years. Cultural buzzer is going to be a complete fucking mess. Who is the best quarterbacks? The best quarterbacks are archmany maybe. So I would say archmany being really good and potentially winning a national championship would be the number one story. Is that that chambles? Yeah saying at a Ohio state

Dante and Oregon. Dante more at Oregon these days these guys all stuck around. Yes that's one of the good things. Yeah right. We're going to the NFL and gotten that shit kicked out. I mean to be rude you the NIL is completely changed like the need for a player to leave before they're ready to go. Right now you can stay until maybe you're overcooked a little bit and get as much money out in the NIL they go tried in the NFL. Do you happen to Dante more right? In the old days he just

would have come out he wouldn't have been ready. He would have been on the jets. Yeah and he's just sort of gotten the shit kicked out of him. Do you think that Indiana is like perfectly designed to be the closest thing you can have to a dynasty in this era? Or do you think like we're in a parody

“period and it's going to be a different champ every year? I think we'll see this year they have”

Hoover coming in from TCU who was an excellent quarterback and so if they can make another run I think people will begin to believe in the sustainability of the Indiana model now. I should say that even the year before they went crazy and legitimately we were one of the most dominant teams in college football they were a great team that went very very far but people still kind of didn't believe until they saw them like Python, Alabama and just legitimately squeezed the life out of some

of these other teams but after they've lost a little bit of something and everybody now is going to be given them their best shot. I think this year is kind of the year where we'll see the long lasting dominance if it exists with Indiana. You know who else said last? Jesus. I'm just looking over Indiana. I think they're going to be a really good team but I tell you what any national media person that still doesn't believe and talk shit on them or what they're doing.

You do it at your own peril because they just been kicking blue bloods as spilling blue blood all over college football for about two years now. Good coach. Excellent. Good program. Good chemistry and camaraderie. Yeah. The Purdue Athletic Director. You stick to no bear trap trying to talk shit. I'm famed to Ohio State is the favorite but Notre Dame is the number two favorite and then CR's

docks or third. CR's docks got some some Oregon merch while I was up in Oregon this week.

You love them. Yeah. I like I like Dan Landing. I feel like he and I could hang out. He and I could trade in. Yeah. I just really like I like everything about Oregon like the merch,

“the the colors, the page and treaty, the way they play. I think the thing about Dan Landing is this.”

Got one the big one. Everybody knows he's a good coach. Yeah. But do people know yet that he is a great coach. And he's like had that team in position and really I actually even changed the mental makeup. Like they you had Chip Kelly out there. He was playing a style of ball at Oregon that was quick and nasty and you could really prepare for it. Landing has instituted something different there. With an edge and they play super physical and all that stuff. But he's still got to win

some big games. You know what it is. Losers OC and his DC. Right. So he's got to win some big games.

I was wondering what happens with coaches when they have it for a second and then they just lose it.

A Chip Kelly had it for like three four years. No, he had it for a long time. No, but I'm saying like when he he was the hottest commodity for an NFL team to hire and it was like, oh, this guy, he's going to be like offensive bell pepper. Beginning at that now he's like he just got fired as the Raiders offensive coordinator 10 games into the season. Right. Like how do you just lose the edge with that? Well, I mean, the question is does that scheme work in the NFL? Where's that what it is? It was all

“scheme and once the one's defense is figured it out. And then it happened a little bit with buddy Ryan, right?”

This buddy Ryan had this groundbreaking defense and then at some point in the mid 90s, it shifted and then he was in groundbreaking anymore. So it was like a director here. One move for a couple. Yeah, it's like a director. You have three good movies and then can't sustain it. But it's what Bellachek was good at

the Patriots that first won the Super Bowl. You're like, this is a completely different team. This could lead different like philosophy that they're executing out there. That was my favorite Bellachek quality was that he was a Morphist to whatever his talent was. It was like, oh, we're going to this. I'll do it this way. Yeah, sure. Which I don't think a lot of coaches like, here's my scheme.

I got to fit my guys into mind. This is how we do stuff. And those are the guys that always get in trouble.

I mean, well, there's some college. There's different aspects of the game, right? There's like this disparity in talent that exists, not just from conference to conference, but like even within a team. Yeah. You can have a team with an incredible blue chip ratio. But still, you got to feel

“some of those places with guys that weren't like exactly four or five, especially now, right?”

So for him to go as fast as he was going to take advantage of some of the stuff that he was doing schematically, that's just probably easier to do in the patch 12 than it is in the NFC East. Well, how many coaches would you say, like, oh, that guy's good. We're just like blind. Everybody would agree with it. They're like the score or not. We're like,

you said Dan Landing. I think most people would be like, oh, yeah, Kirby's good Kirby's good in the

coach. Oh, that guy's good. It's a guy's good. It's mainly a kiffin at that point now. When kiffin is a definitely a guy who right away, think about somebody in a different thing. And like he legitimately raises the floor of whatever it is that you have a floor razor, a true floor razor. When kiffin's going to do that, if you land kiffin runs the type of offense and the type of program to where if you start off and you're a five-winter, you're going to every year be now a nine-winter.

The question with Lane Kiffin still is can you be a 14 or 15-winter because like, as deep of a run as Ole Miss may last year, I don't know. The question with Lane is the same as Dan Landing. Like Lane Kiffin still has yet to take a team and get them over the hump to a national championship.

And if he wants to be mentioned in the same vein as the rest of these guys,

he's got to find a place to do that. And if he doesn't do it at LSU, I think his national reputation will be a lot. Oh, see it. Like Miami Dolphin's going to be tough. Yeah. That's like we have NBA players for it like that, right? You can take it around too. Yeah. Maybe even you can sniff around three. Want to say something after that? No. Okay. No, we're not throwing daggers here, or you have guys that can get you to the finals

as the number one guy. They can get you to the finals as the number one guy. And be not that many guys. I mean, they can get to the conference finals, but I think like there's Donovan Mitchell can get you to round two around three. Yeah. But it hasn't been unable to get people around four hard and unable. But just think about it like this. Like Jimmy Butler.

“Jimmy Butler can get you to the NBA finals. That's why he's so tough to rank.”

That's why it's difficult to Jimmy Butler can get you to the NBA finals. I haven't 100th. Do you, my pyramid, my revised pyramid that I've spent the whole summer working on for really nobody's there because my kids are all the way around. One hundred. All time. Have a 100th. Because of the two finals. I really value those. He got you best guy on two teams that made to the finals, right? It's the hardest thing to do. And they were those teams. When they got there,

they actually kind of made you believe like, can they pull this off? There's no. Yeah. And he also dragged and slared some teams. Yeah. He beat some teams. He took down Janice when Janice was good. And you know, he took down a really good Celtic statement when the title of the next year. Yeah. Right. So there are coaches that are like that. Yeah. That that for for nearly can get you there. So that less than 10 of like elite coaches and college football right now. Yeah. That everybody agrees.

That guy's good. Well, is it eight? There's a lot of guys. Marcus Freeman at Notre Dame. There's another one. There's Steve Sarkesian at Texas. Ohio State, guys. Another one. Ryan Day. There's Ryan Day at Ohio. All of everybody knows that these guys are bad asses. But they have even amongst those guys. They're still people that are waiting. There's some people that have had better days like sort of like a dabble swinging who at one point was at the top of the league coaches like a Nick Saben slayer.

Yeah. Right. And there's some guys that are past that. Some guys like Freeman who are still marching towards having that type of reputation. But you noted their great coaches and then some guys like

“Kirby who are like retooling. But I think I think but above them. Of all of them, they're about”

five dudes that if you have them year in year out, you're competing for national champions. I think the NFL is six. Well, here. I think McDonald is in there now for what see how to did. Santa literally could have won every game last year. And I think whatever he was doing, he seemed at the he has to be in the discussion. John McVay. McVay. I think Sean Payton. I think Shannon. Ben Johnson. I think is there now. Um, would you say serioni? I wouldn't. I would have, I would have

teams with pretty flawed two families. He's a very versatile coach. He gets to see it in his own

house on the road. Yes, and at home. Somebody says he's better on the road. If there's an NFL meetings, maybe he'll know a good game. Me two hours away. They're like a hot springs around here. You guys have been out. Yeah. You're thinking about going up? Something like a high hedge though. You know what's interesting, but that list. I don't know if Jim Harba, I need the Harba as on my list

“for the top six. Jim Harba, I think we want to be in the list. He has been the results.”

I think Andy's off. I think he's too old now. I thought that she's that she sees in last year there was such a mess. I don't know how you guys have a question, just about to hear you on it. We've talked about this before. So I'm fascinated with why he's so poorly regarded with the amount of success at the Eagles of that because I think they have so much talent. I think it's almost like people think they wouldn't do it. And GM has the mystique that is usually reserved for the coach.

So like everybody is sort of like how he sees and trust how he, how he knows what he's doing, like watch what how he did here. And it's just all of the credit lines of going to him. It goes to fangeo and it's all dependent on like who's the OC. It's killing more than we're great. If it's chemical, we're bad. Everybody's losing their mind about Sean Manion right now. But it's not like the way people look at J on Hertz where it's like, well, this guy is one

of Super Bowl. Bend to a Super Bowl outside of that. They're always with the exception of that

real detonation season consistently very good. But gets no like kind of like hot talk show respect kind of. Not only wouldn't you say, wouldn't you say the key thing is if you wouldn't be shocked if the guy got fired after the season. I don't think you can be in the top six. Right. But like you're you've got Ben Johnson and it's like Ben Johnson anything. I just think he's I just think he's going to be there for a while. I feel the best about him. What is the Green Bay coaching

“and I forget the name for some. Look for the floor. I think he's I think he's I don't know how”

I thought the floor is going to get fired after the playoffs. I understand that, but like having been Johnson on the list other than coaches, one of Super Bowl and play for another one. By the way, say something about the J on Hertz thing is that J on Hertz not only got there, but played phenomenally in no Super Bowl games. You really played good. And I think that the fact that that team has been able to maximize not all the time, not all the time. He's not sitting around all the time, like

making no look, throws and all that stuff. But they've been able to maximize their personnel and play in a way that's distinct and unique to who they have shows that they're really well coached. I just thought Ben Johnson did last year was outrageous. I mean, that team, it's quarter back, he had to almost teach him on the fly had to be a consistent kind of guy who could actually take some structure. He had a bunch of young players. He had to take over a whole new

organization. When you can take over a franchise that's just been run like shit and it's been able to do it in nine months, just fix it. I think that's like the hardest thing to do. Serianny was inheriting a really good infrastructure, a great front office and a ton of talent. Well, I mean, he was inheriting a Super Bowl winning team that had decayed, came in and revitalized it. But I think because he was like a little bit more of a younger, fresher voice that was about like

more being a CEO or is dope Peterson, I think had a little bit more control. Although Nick's

system, this has been always the issue is Nick has an offensive system that I think he likes to

implement and OCs that come in either fully adopted or like add their wrinkles to it. And this has

“been the time. I think I think conditional on Nick's keeping his job there. Like you have to basically”

give man in the keys. Well, you're an Eagles fan. Do you think he's a good coach? Like I would fight for variable for the death unless we were talking about because I would not fight Nick's for Nick Serianny to the death. Yeah, no and and we had this conversation at Core Week once time, Core Week, we love to hang out and have conversations. And I'm, I do. I love Core Week, I love Core Week. I love Core Week. I love. They loves a multiple ringer people are just like to talk

to stuff about. I just I don't understand the Serianny thing. I understand like being frustrated with with with the way the team and particularly Jayla Harris has played at times, especially in this era of like, you know, so much being on the quarterback and all that stuff. But he's been so successful and they've been pretty early in contention. I just kind of don't get even the gym hardball thing that you could that you could bring up. So if you look at gym hardball, the success that he's had

as a coach in the last 20 years, San Francisco, Michigan chargers. Yeah, you could argue that like they are very few peers there. He's one of National Championship at Michigan. He's had forget about what he did at Stanford as well to have Stanford as an elite upper echelon team.

success right away. Not only are you a good team with gym hardball, you have the chance to be a great

team. You're 10 win credibility, basically. Absolutely. I like this exercise. Can I put you on this

spot and ask you the NBA coaches would be? Yeah, I'd have to let me get my my my standings.

“Because I think in a lot of these sports all vampire you look. Okay. I'm ready. You're seeing like”

a rise of the techno-cratic coach who's like, I'm very good at one specific thing, or I'm very good as like a vibes guy. But the idea of a coach being bigger than the team, I think is going away in a lot of different sports. I agree. It will be hard for you to go away in college football. Call of football. Yeah, but even in college football, it's like the guys that get jobs now are like, I know I know Chesney and these dudes, but like it seems like it's like Eric Morrison will

stand in. It's like, do you have a playbook? And if you do, we'll pay the premium and give you the head coaching job just so that we don't have to get a new OC every year. But I'll say this, though, I agree with that, but at some point in college football, just the personality of your program just has to be your head coach. This is the reason why they've been making fun of me on tailgate because of the twinkle, the twinkle that I saw in Chesney's eye. I did not want

to agree with Bill about this. I hate agreeing with Bill. But you were like at the practice. I was there and I watched the way people responded to him in the building. Later, man, I watched the way they talked about UCLA football legitimately when I was there. They were tearing up the practice field, doing new stuff. And it's difficult not to believe in them. You know, before you know, Harball reminds me of Jim Harball, he's like a football coach. He's like the Larry Brown

of like football coaches, like the Larry Brown of it. Now he didn't even, he hasn't gotten over the top in the professional football yet. But like if you have Larry Brown, like coaching your team, automatically your team is going to pull it together until they fucking hate him until they see that's the same shit though. That's the same thing. This is why basketball is so different. It's like Mike Brown just won with the with the next. Mike Brown failed on like four other teams.

“Right. So I think there's this cluster of coaches that if you gave them the right team,”

they could make the final four or maybe even win the title. I think it's a bunch of them. No, I think spows on a different level because no matter what his team is, the team successful, and they've over achieved in these crazy ways, he culture. I also think coaching LeBron and Wade

and Bosch, those first couple years, was like the single hardest thing any coach did last 15

years. Where it's like, if this doesn't work out, I'm getting fired. And I don't have buy-in from these guys because they've decided everything in this team. I have to win these guys over. You remember there was a lot of battling in that first season, even the second season. I just thought the way he navigated that was pretty special. I think Dagnol's really good. Yes. But in my opinion, this is good. Dagnol is like that kind of like techno crack coach that I'm thinking of where it's

like a mergers out of a system. Presti is the man, the wizard, everything is kind of like top to bottom, you're you're here. And I think he's very, very good. I'm just saying like he's good. He had a really hard roster to keep everyone happy and he was able to do it, which I think

in the NBA is the hardest thing to do. But Missoula I think has been an amazing regular season coach

and they've blown three playoffsers in the last four years where they're huge favorites. You're up and down on him sometimes. It seems like sometimes you're completely bottom-up. I thought that Philly series last year was one of the worst losses in your season. Yeah. I mean, you know that. Like, it'd be dangerous, it'd be dangerous, it'd be ridiculous. How did they lose to Philly? When you look back at the series, you're like how the

fuck did we in the series? I think you guys looked and they were just like we need Paul George. The Celtics were just like we got to get PG's probably the best forward in the series. Who are the who are the other coaches? So, Missoula. I mean, that's really because then everybody else is, I think Steve Curs don't really good. Yeah. I don't think it's too much. I don't know. I feel like Ty Lu and Steve Curs. I would say Charles Lee is

probably my favorite younger one. Okay. I thought that stuff they did last year with the team they had and how weird the team was. Um, maybe maybe nurse. Really? I thought him, I thought he completely out coach, Missoula. He's one a title, right? He's made conference finals and, you know, he might be a little better. But I don't know. There's probably like three or four and then there's like another five or six. But how many of you guys could have won with the next last year? Right. Well,

“I don't know. I mean, you need to be a defensive kind of kind of presence guy. You also need to”

have the ability to stand up to towns. You have to write the short back. You hate each other for

thought he could have done that a year ago. At the same time, it also feels like he

allowed in a very unique way for that team to take on its own personality. And he injected a belief system into the team. Yeah, the Finch does that with the Timmerwolves, too. He liked, you know, he injected a belief system. It's a good one because that's a really hard team to coach. You have wreck real flaws. This is something that's about, uh, brown to me is it also seemed like to me that the success of the next, uh, had as much to do with his journey as a basketball coach to where

he got to that point in his career where he had had some high profile failures, been through some stuff. And he understood just how to hold on enough and let go enough and believe and instill boy that concept, we docked in the Celtics, be kind of a kind of the white brown. Yeah, but even the

doc thing was rocky because he was playing, he just didn't want to play young guys. Yeah, right.

Mike Brown was way more willing to embrace the bench. Doc eventually the corner turned when he started playing the younger guys and trusting Rhonda. It's interesting talking to different people around the league who they respect this great coaches. Like when Akinson got fired by Brooklyn. And, you know, the people around the league were like, that's fucking crazy. This guy's a good coach. And the kind of the litmus test of like, does everybody else think the guys a good coach

and did the owner fuck that up? Then there's other cases where like booting holes are was a good

“coach until he wasn't. You know, and I think that happened sometimes in college football and”

pro football too. Sometimes the guys have it for five, six years and then it's just gone. I'm going to ask a real casual question. Let's say you're sitting down with somebody that does it follow NBA basketball and all. What makes a good coach? Because in college football, I absolutely know what makes a good coach, right? In college football, I absolutely know you can tell when a guy like, like, both on the field, what it is you're doing, but also when a guy has the presence

and the institutional integrity to define a program, that's like to me the top thing that makes a college football coach. Right. Before the NBA game that is so and a little extra so important to it, sometimes like, I don't even know if that's different. Like regular season coaching and playoff coaching is definitely different. Just like regular season basketball and playoff and what your teams objectives are, how you manage like, maybe my start part only wants to play

“55 to 60 games, how to manage that. I think NFL coaches by far, are still the most important.”

Like, if you get one of the six or seven real guys that's your attend to 12 win team here if you have talent. Right. Like when we had Bellachek, it really didn't matter who is on the team. With Bellachek and Brady, we're probably going to win like 12 to 14 games. But then it's he got older. You could kind of see the team decay. Special team started going. Right. He started missing drafts. There were these things that he's kind of red flags. And then he's just like,

in basketball, you just get fired if it doesn't work out for one year. Right. You have, you have like Anthony Edwards is your superstar and you lose in round one. You're just getting fired. Right.

They're always going to pick. Or you could be hot. You could be like Taylor Jenkins, red hot,

men, men, this is the future. No Jenkins, great exam. And then fired and gone. Yeah. EMA, if Houston's a mess this year, he'll get fired. Yeah. Um, but the lifespan of the MBA coaches are not. It's like four years is a long time. Who did they say was the third, isn't Mazul like the third longest coach? It's something crazy like that. We'll hardy start. Right. My, we'll hard is good. My question is how do you motivate these dudes when we get to like these guys are making

70 million a year. Well, what's the difference between not making 30 years? Like, I mean, like, do you think they're still making? I know understand generational well, but like I just mean, like, are you say, it's not like they were under. I'm saying when you have a team, you have a team that has a star. They can't trade the star. He's making a shitload of money. And he's not going anywhere. And if he doesn't get along with this coach, the coach is losing that every time. So, so this is my thing.

“I think the league is so star-dependent that a lot of this is just this coach, the coaches are”

tethered to these guys. And if these guys have bad disposition, you're just not going to win a lot. You're not going to win at the highest level. It's just, it's just going to be tough. If you get a Yanis or a Yokeh, who for whatever reason has all of this talent, but also is addicted to competition and want to be the best, you just end up going further than if you have somebody's other guys. Some of these other guys that can be weird, material, destroy a team. A lot of that is just

based in how do you superstars look at themselves. And you can, you can build around it. You can coach, but you can't, some of it, you're your handcuffed to it. Also, I don't know, man. I mean, we're starting to see now once a year, a top 15 NBA player get traded in an inexplicable way sometimes. So, if you could trade with them, you can trade jail in. And these guys are all like, I don't want to go into

but I mean, I don't know, maybe the coach will take on a greater precedence, you know?

“I look, I'm a like a fan. I love Luca, right? Love Luca, love watching Luca play, and all that”

stuff. But if you're coaching Luca, if you're coaching Luca, that must be an interesting

spot to be in, because your team is always going to be just relevant enough for you to get

blamed for the fact that he doesn't always play in a way. I mean, Luca is a phenomenal player, but he's going to keep you just relevant enough to be incredibly criticized. But having Luca does not necessarily mean that you are going to win a championship. Yeah, and you also have to build your team around off his strengths and weaknesses. In order to have the type of success, he has to have a team that you can't just play with anybody. Just tailored for him. Yeah. So, it's an interesting

spot to be in. And as we talk about like superstar players in the league, there are very few guys in the league that if you have this guy that you can put scraps around him and you're going to

“the finals. Well, that's what I think halberds like that. I think you can build any type of team around”

him, right? I think Tatum is like that, too. These guys who they can kind of be whatever they can

fill these different spots. Why do you look at each of them? Tatum's made two finals, and we'll see it. Let's see it happen now. He's really good. I think I'm not saying he's reacting to halberds. My point is there's guys that are easier to build around than other guys. Luca has burned his more of that guy and Tatum. I think the way halberds plays and all of this stuff, I think if you have him, I think Max is like that. I mean, I really think like he is so well respected around the league

is just an awesome guy. Yeah. And coach is like doc is like his biggest evangelist and doc has encoched him for three years, but everybody loves Maxi. And you have that and he's easy to play with. Needs the ball doesn't need the ball. You know, that those are the best guys I think to build around.

Sure. Luca is like, okay, we need a we need a rim runner who can protect him on defense.

Could you need a rim a little sector creator. Which also I don't need a point card because my point card can't involve that. I need like quick run type guys when I hurt my hamstring and I'm going for three to five. Yeah. I need us to read. Yes. Right. Now, I will say that when firing on like Luca has taken a team to the finals and like in a lot of his issues were kind of like because Luca is great. That's the problem of this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like the time you go, this is not only the best guy

in the league. Like this guy doesn't seem like he has any offensive weaknesses whatsoever. It feels like then he fouls out of the biggest game of the year. You watch him with the fuck. I just want maybe if like I just want Luca to have five straight possessions of just missing the shot and just getting back. Just trying to make it a happy. Just miss the shot and get that. I think about the time he hits 30. If you ever learn that by now. Yeah. He's like, guess what? That doesn't matter. It's like

and Beads not going to suddenly be an awesome shape this year. He's just he is who he is. We're monitoring it. He's he's wait's looking pretty good, actually. Have you done the you think you better than me with LeBron helicopter and in every time? I'm totally. I'm totally LeBron. I'm totally fine with it. I thought Jaylin genius move going right to the hood. Yeah. Yeah. He rucks down that out. Watch me. He's like, I'm a man. Jaylin is. Jaylin might be a man of the people. He went. That's

when he's covered with. He cares about people legitimately. Yeah. But he didn't do the immediately. He's like, I'm going to buy into the city of Italy and I'm going to go to like a

“Wells Fargo branded friggin like because that's what he actually is. Watch. They're going to be good.”

I agree. They're good. They're good. There's no scenario where they're not good. They're going to be good. I think I think everyone knows they're going to be good. I think they're going to be better than people even think that they're going to. Yeah. It's injury and age dependent. We'll see. So over under for them is 50, which simply Drew's might actually help them. I think there are 55 because I think they can win games when they don't have a beat or the brand. Yes. They could just have the

other three guys and Jaylin. Yeah. I think they can win games with the, you could play like, I don't know. Somebody's shitty. Washington. You can beat Washington with those three guys. Just doing everything and then save the big guns for bigger games. Should be fun season. Thanks, guys. It annoys you. What? I just before you. The feeling. Like, I like just beyond it. It annoys you. You're no, I really like Jaylin. I don't like that he's going to be at Philly. Philly is our rival.

He also think we hit the most. They asked him about whether he was going to have a chip on his shoulder about pasta and he was like, we'll see. That means yes. Yeah. Boy, I tell you what, let me tell you what because the one thing I give him more credit and you said this before is you can get

When there's a guy on the other side that he feels like I want to prove that I'm better than this guy.

He goes crazy. Man, oh, man, oh, man is he going to have prove it games against Jayson.

“That's what I did this on the mailback with house. Philly has these five teams. We're every”

game against the five teams. This is going to be awesome. Yeah. Cleveland, Miami, Boston, LA. Next. No, and then the one other team in the east, Toronto. Yeah. All teams that have real history with the brun or J-lan or, you know, there's some sort of rivalry. But um, I, the fact that

Tatum and Brown have not talks since the trade to be always like dumb founding. Yeah.

Like, I don't expect these guys to be buddies. But they're, and then that's true. Like a five minute France or is to why they're not playing together anymore. Oh, it's definitely the answer

“CR. That's how bad it got. Like, if you, we worked together 15 years. Oh, Bill, don't do this”

because I would be forced to start potting. You don't want me to actually pot. You don't want me to,

don't, you understand. You, you, you haven't put speed up yet. Right? Did you spotify a trade CR and CR does the press conference with like Amazon. Yeah. And they're like CR be talked to Billy and it's like no. And Jeff, he's Austin Southwest Billy and

“Rex. You talked to Billy it? No, haven't talked to him. Yeah. Like, that's fucking weird. These”

guys want to tie it all together. Two years ago. They haven't talked. Yeah. I'm still waiting for the now they tell us and then I don't know for every getting it. But the town podcast, the town podcast, that's the title. Thanks, guys. Thank you. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Kurt, thanks to Van and CR. Thanks to Eduardo and Gahau as well. I will see you at least one more time during the week on this feed. And then rewatchable is going to be Monday with speed. So enjoy the

rest of the day. I'll see you midweek. Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas and affiliation with Kansas. Star casino or 18 plus and present in DC, Kentucky or well, my game problem call 100 100 gambler or 1 800 my reset call 888 79 777 777 or visit ccpg.org/chat Connecticut or md gambling help.org and Maryland hope is here visit gambling helpline m a dot org or call 800 3 27 50 50 for 24 7 support Massachusetts or call 877 8 hope and why or text hope and why in New York for Louisiana call 877 770 78767