John Heilemann: Did Trump Make an Ominous Shift on Iran?

put a "yetstile packong" on the handle, as best as the "imer grathes" tested

he will hold up in cheeset, cheeset, cheeset, yet cheeset, yet some grathes testing Time-a-map, Artenia, Kauf and Kasimong upload his rice in unia for it but as long as the fire had crashed, time-a-map with the "ung-a-pacong" Hey everybody, a couple housekeeping notes as well as a news note as I was taping with John Hileman, the spring court came back with a decision on the voting

rights act that was bad but also a little narrow than we expected.

“It's weakening a key provision that is going to eliminate at least”

a seat here in Louisiana that was for a majority minority district in which would obviously end up yielding a Republican white man instead almost certainly. So we'll have much more on the implications of the voting rights act ruling, A on the board YouTube page today. If you're gonna see so check that out or else later this week on the pod.

I am back to streaming tonight, so come hang out about eight o'clock in the east, YouTube sub-stack, wherever you find our streaming, I'll take your Q&A. It's going to do more Q&A today, so howler at me, come having some fun stuff. Just one more reminder about our live shows in San Diego and L.A. It's downtown San Diego, May 20th, downtown L.A. May 21st, working on some

fun guests. We'll have to see out there, make a little trip out of it. Jetfield prices are going to be going up the summer, so May's a good time to go on vacation. All right, stick around for kind of a good show long show with one of my F.A. John Howlin. Hello and welcome to the Bull Work podcast, I'm your host Tim Miller, delighted

to welcome back to the show. Chief political columnist said at Puck, host of its in-politic podcast, he's an analyst at MS now, he's ghost of Hacks on tap, he's doing a lot of content. We used to be together on a little show called The Circus, and you just missed a very lively green room, discussion. Uncle Barry fan, it's John Howlin, what's up?

I was really pleased to see for a variety of reasons because I'm always worried about

the safety of my dear friends, I was glad to see for that reason, and for the other more underlying reason, but you were nowhere near the West, where I spawns dinner. No, we're near. You're not at the Puck brunch. I was reading John Kelly's just kind of very flowery, re-enactment of the

Puck brunch. You didn't get the invite? Of course, got the invite. I kept getting text from people, you know, that night

“you didn't do Washington here at the dinner. I'm like, have we met? Have we met?”

Have we met? This has nothing to do with Puck or the Puck brunch or anything else. I ducked to spies that dinner. I heat that dinner. I find it. I've had it at a trotis. I went for most of the 90s in about like 2003-2004. I'm never going to this thing again. For all the same reasons I don't live in Washington.

What was the wildest thing happened when those dinners in the 90s was like Christopher Hitchens getting blackout drunk and doing lines in the bathroom. Yeah, actually 90s. Christopher lived at the Wyoming, which is really across the street from the Washington, and the origin story of the

Vanity Fair after party. Before there were after parties was that Christopher threw the Vanity Fair after party in his apartment at the Wyoming, and it was an outgrowth of what he was his alternative way to correspond in his dinner dinner. So like the cool kids would have dinner at Christopher's house,

not go to the dinner. And then that evolved into the Vanity Fair party, which then became a big celebrated thing.

“I remember a lot of cocaine being done in the bathrooms”

of the Washington Hill in the 90s that it peeked. There was a lot of journalists and politicians passing passing bullets under from one stall to the next. That occurred a lot in the 1990s. And yet even then, I still hated the dinner.

Despite all of it's other charting. And so I stopped going. And then Bloomberg made us go one year in like 2014. And after having been gone for 10 years, I went for one year. We had color commentary on the red carpet with

Walt Clyde Frazier in a alligator skin, Tuxedo.

And then I said, I've never going back in.

I have not been sent. So it's been at least 12 years since I've been. All right. Long to find that archival footage of you and Clyde Frazier. I've got a great Clyde Frazier shirt to wear. Let's talk about the news.

I want to find that archival footage. I'm sure it exists. I can find for you. Well, I guess we should start the bull working news. We should shout out colleague Ben Parker. I'm going to add the exclusive on the son Trump.

He's decided to put his face on the passports. And this feels like a troll of the, you know, globalist lips who get passports. There is also in line with his co-DOS desire to live in a country where when you land at the airport,

you immediately see dear leaders face.

And you see his face on the money.

And then you know, you see his face everywhere on the plates. Right. And I guess that is. South Trump has not had much success in making anyone's live better. I think that that is really what he's going to be focused on going forward. I would, I would have thought it was a troll of the globalist planet

trotting cosmopolitan liberals like you and me Tim. Except for the fact that he's doing all the other things. If it was singular, I'm just putting my face in the passport. I'd be like he's trolling us.

“But the truth is he wants to have his face on everything.”

He wants to have his face on the money. He wants to have his face on the buildings. He wants to have his face on the, on the new monuments. He's building from South America. All it's in very consistent. So I assume Trump's kind of like, you know, uh, we'll, there soon we'll be,

he'll be asking for to take away state drivers license to soon and have a national drivers license ID system, which in which your face will be on the ID, but the only other thing on the ID will be a larger image of him. A year ago, almost, uh, we were over in London and Berlin for about 10 days for a couple of things, including a wedding, including the wedding of

Paul Baggs from Liverpool in Berlin. And I had to kind of mention that because I saw you you were at the Interpol Senate Coachella with himby. So, and I got there in my passport, it turned out, was not expired, but was going to expire in six months.

And there is a rule that some of the European countries, like, so that I couldn't go, I could fly to London. I got to England, and then they were like, you can't go to Germany, because your passport's not going to inspire. I was in some weird window right in the area.

Yeah, right? So I had to go to the embassy, and they took care of it all. They gave me an extension. It was not a problem. It was all cool. Actually, the American embassy in London was great about this.

But they were like, you have an extension now for another year. And I, the Trump news made me think, women. Like, I haven't gotten my passport expended yet. And I got to get this thing under the wire, because the idea that, like, because this is a key element, right?

If you, if I can get it under the wire before they get his face out, I will have a passport for a decade. And I'll get to pass the Trump thing by the time I got to get a new passport renewal. Where else? Fair in might be president, then.

Well, you know, some other kind of AI overlords. But yeah, it's, I'd be like, it sits, you know, it's other piece with so much other stuff. This is one where that was a pocket constitution, you know, I, I'm the type of person that had a fondness for the idea

that, you know, in America, our president is called Mr. President. And we, you know, things are much more democratic and small D. I care about this kind of stuff. When I went to foreign countries where they had, you know, authoritarian dictator, planners, and posters on the buildings,

I found this to be very weird and foreign. And so that makes me think that people will eventually kind of blanch it this. But then on the other hand, I'm like, I don't know, maybe that's just about me and my priors,

and people actually don't really care at all. There's two competing things going on here.

If you step away from Trump for a second.

One is, I think it's true that culture personality and general and the sanctification of individuals. A various kinds whether they be, you know, tech trillionaires or sports stars or pop stars, whatever is more prominent and prevalent now than it was before

personal branding, having your face. So whatever, if you get to a certain point on shit.

“So I think people's tolerance for that is a general thing is higher, right?”

I'm with you. And I would go even further than that when you would go to those countries, a countries where that kind of thing was prevalent. You'd say, I'm kind of proud I'm from a place where we, where if you think about it, you don't usually think about it quite this way.

You think, oh, what we've generated is the institution, right? It's the presidency, not the president. It's like why people swear us to the constitution, not to the occupant of the office because they are all regarded as transients and eventually going to just fade back into the background.

This is the office is what's powerful.

And you feel like I'm glad I live. We're going to start playing some soft patriotic music behind you. It should, it should, it should, it should act to this topic about that Jason. Make sure to ask that. You just told me you were a pocket constitution dork.

So like I can have said this, I love it. I just think, you would think about it. Like I'm glad I'm in a place like that, right? And it's, it's distressing, obviously, the thing that we're, you know, becoming, you know, much more akin in both in,

in not, almost every level, but certainly at this symbolic level to, to the places where despotism, you know, and socially petty despotism is not just present, but is embodied and as you see it everywhere. That signs of it or everywhere.

That's the thing about despots, right? If you've traveled a lot, you know when you're in a despotic country. Because the despots are constantly reminding you that you're in a despotic country, right?

“And that's what it feels like here what's so depressing about it”

is because you sort of go, it's not just that we're like those other countries, but that, you know, that you see it happening in front of you. This is how it happens, right? Which is the, the president just starts going, I'm putting my name on more and more shit.

I'm putting my face on more and more shit. And you're just going to get so used to it that you're going to eventually go,

And I'm not ready for that yet. I forget what I'm stealing this point from. So I apologize and we'll, I'll credit if I can find it in my social media archive. But when the discourse is going around for a while about like his Trump Hitler, is he Mussolini, is he like this?

Is he like a woman? Somebody observed that Trump is really kind of an Arab oil despot at heart. Like, you know, extremely galley. God, he rather wants to do corrupt deals.

And I've never made this point, it was a while ago.

And like, it is just so on the nose now. And obvious, as he's like making these deals with the Arab despots. And they are really our best allies now, besides El Salvador. And like just sort of at a spiritual or a level.

“Kind of, I do think that's how he sort of sees himself.”

The one caveat to that, I think that's true in the Sharia law. Well, no, no, I'm, I think the caveat to that is that at least... At least I have a wife though. That's an appeal. The thing about the Arab oil despots is that they are largely anonymous.

They don't want their names in face of money. They want to be, you know, when you see these like the Faribs list or whatever or whatever, they're like, "We're the richest people in the world." A lot of times, we don't really know because a lot of these, a lot of the shakes are like generally one.

They want to be on that list. Well, we want to have, we want to have all the money. We want to have all the power. And it's easier for us if we're not accountable,

so that no one in our population can look at us and go,

"Oh, that guy's the order is oppressing us, right?" So they kind of keep it on the download. They have all this go. And if you're living the region, you know who these people are. But they're not like, they don't want to be on the cover of their suit.

If we live in the world, but they're still fortunate for us as real business magazines. But they wouldn't want to be, I don't want to be on the fucking cover of fortune. I just want to have all the fucking shit. And Trump is both. He's like, he behaves like a debt like a Middle Eastern oil on a crab,

desperate, whatever, oligarch. But also wants to be like, you know, like Taylor Swift. It also wants to be, you know, Taylor Swiftie and also wants to be on everything. It'd be fully acknowledged that he is who he is.

“That's the big difference there, I think.”

It's funny to think back to the McCain ad, making fun of Obama. The most famous person in the world. And that's just like literally couldn't be on more on the nose for Trump. The McCain ad was obviously, you know, didn't work.

But also was promised on the notion that there was a substantial number of people. The ad was called Celebrity. The most famous person in the world was the opening that ad, right? They showed him at the, at the Renamerate and you saw him with other pop stars and stuff. And that was supposed to be by someone's theory.

All of McCain's team, Fred Davis, who made that ad. They all were like, the American electorate will, will be like, we don't want to celebrity as president. That was the premise of that, right?

So first of all, not only were they wrong,

but second of all, like, like, now you look at it. No, it's like, how could you have ever thought that? That would be, that would be considered like a devastating ad that would end Barack Obama's political career. And hilarious.

One additional way in which he's like the Middle Eastern Audit Cratses, he's very interested in throwing his political photos into prison over kind of, you know, non-existent, fabricated, crazy topics, something that's very popular. MBS did this very efficiently when he took over.

So for Trump hasn't gotten the bone soil, but well, you know, maybe that's next. It's been far less efficient with Trump. We do have the rule of law here still in courts. He hasn't been able to lock people up in her.

It's Carlton as much as he'd like to. Yeah. He's trying once again. He's back to the plate.

“I think the fourth time with James Komi.”

Now, this time they have indicted him. A grand jury is indicted him somehow over the C shell picture. James Komi posted a boomer resist meme where he was walking along the beach. I asked him about this when he's on the particle months ago. He's walking along the beach.

Some MSNL viewer. Someone is a big fan of you on your call show. There's some 71-year-old Upper West Side lady resident who watches MSNL at our MSNL. The time it's a beach show. Who made this little thing on the show?

It was like Kitty Hawk or something. The outer bags. Some C shell art in Bethany. That's at 86-47. Which is a restaurant term for Kilda.

It's not on the menu. You know, this isn't available. It'd be clear. You just say Kilda, when we say Kilda from the menu, nobody understands the killing it from the menu.

It involves the loss of no life. It's a metaphor. It's a metaphor. Yes. Remove it from the menu.

I mentioned this the other week. It was like the Persian person who was trying to say that when we say death to America. It's like literally death. It's kind of like hell. When you guys say fuck Trump.

You don't literally want to fuck Trump. My penis. I'm sore if it's not what you're saying. You're right. It's killing it from the menu.

It is a figure of speech. 86-47 is the C shells. We're laughing. I guess vaguely serious because Jim Comey is going to have to get a lawyer.

An ostensibly free country where you should be allowed to say 86-47. If the one is matter of fact, I just did right there. I better watch out.

“Do you have any big thoughts before I take you as to hearing cash explain the seriousness of this investigation?”

Well, I will only say to your point about all these things.

I found the first three coming indictments.

They're obviously, we don't have to do them. Don't even have to say. These are weaponization of the DOJ. Retribution campaign, blah, blah, blah. But it was actually kind of delightful to watch the consequence.

I feel, of course, sympathy for Comey for having to deal with this. But watching him roll into those previous legal proceedings with Pat Fitzgerald and be like, "Wig against Lindsey Halligan." And be like, "We are just going to lawyer the living shit out of you." And embarrass the Trump administration every time they would go into a courtroom.

I'm looking forward to that again in this -- because this is not -- he is not going to go to jail for this. There is not a jury that's going to connect him because it's such a ludicrous charge. But I'm sorry he has to go through it. But it will be fun to watch him and his team. Yet again, demonstrate that the Trump people are not just been dictated but incredibly

fucking incompetent and don't really know their way around a poor room at all.

Amen.

“And shout out to Jim Komi, who, obviously, we have litigated often.”

The choices he made during the 26th campaign on this show. And you and I have done it together. I've done it with him on this show. But he could have gone down a lot of different paths. You know?

And when Trump called them into the office there, he could have gone down the path of I'm going to go along to get along, like many other people did who are in high-ranking positions in the administration. He did not do that. He's being targeted for the fact that he tried to act in his own integrity.

And his daughters being targeted now because of that. And it's -- it's a trotist and abomination. But in some ways, I do think it's an inspiring, redemptive arc from Jim Komi. And his daughters now suing the administration. It's better if it's him that he's going against --

It's an insult to the keystone cops. I would like to play a cash, but tell us press conference announcing this very serious C-shell indictment. Former FBI director James Komi has now been indicted for two felony counts. While many of you may read this indictment in view this matter as a simple

investigation, it is the farthest thing from that. Every single investigation, this FBI and our partners at the Department of Justice is undertake, especially those that involve the threats to harm or hurt or even kill individuals, whether they hold public office or civilians in our country, are met with the same measure of investigative prowess and tools and personnel

and partnership with the Department of Justice as anyone else. This has been a case that's been investigated over the past nine, ten or eleven months. These cases take time. Our investigators work methodically.

Nine to eleven months, John, they've been -- they've been eyeing that picture. They've looked at the metadata. They've looked at the different styles of C-shell art. They've looked at inspiration from past C-shell artists to see the level of menace.

This actually was a tell for me yesterday because, you know, you also would be up at that same press conference where you saw Todd. I want to be -- I want to be your AG blanch. Saying, you know, there is one thing that's really clear. You cannot threaten the life of the press of United States.

And we will now, that is, that's the law. We will not let me.

“So we are going to bring these people to justice, right?”

I haven't done this. I actually, if I had had a few more minutes, I would have done it before the show to bring some news on this. But like, I would like to go back and have chat you to your claw or something.

Go back and look at how many people have been charged with this crime. And then tell me what the -- what in the totality of those cases, what the longest and what the average amount of time is that allowed has elapsed between the incident for which they were charged in the charge.

Pretending to kill the president of the United States is a serious crime. And I am telling you -- Like, my gut tells me that what you would find in all of the cases, however many of them there have ever been under this charge under this law,

is that the time is almost always like trivially short.

Somebody gets threads to kill the president of the United States. Man, the charges are brought instantly. And you get on it. And you get on it, right? That guy's tried to kill the president of the United States.

You don't wait nine months. If the guy is seriously intending to kill the president, it would be malpractice to let him wander free for almost a year. This man wants to kill the president, Tim.

And we have evidence of it. But we're going to take nine months to a year to bring the charges. Even if that -- even if this wasn't obviously ludicrous, because it's just an Instagram post, there isn't any fucking investigation new.

That's the only thing there was. And that kind of just gives the lie to the whole thing,

which is like, what?

Jim Comey's tried to kill the president.

Let's wait a year before we get to charge it before we get to charge it. This is not so stupid even I just said. Jim Comey is trying to kill the president. You know what he thought he was walking through the woods, taking pictures and writing captions based on the poetry

and literature that he's been reading. That's what Jim Comey said. Jim Comey wants the president dead. And what he thought the way to do it was was to post a picture on Instagram under his own name of some seashells.

“Because that's what you do if you really want to see the president get killed”

and you want to help make it happen. It's so, I mean, it's beyond ludicrous, but the point about the timing is that they know it's beyond ludicrous. And I think to the serious point here, and you guys have talked about this already on the various bulwark podcast,

but it's like, you remember maybe some coincidence

to the fact that Comey's daughter is now got the right to sue.

But I think the clearer thing is that this is that they have been trying to capitalize on this narrative around the attempted assassination at the dinner. And they're kind of going to run out of runway on that. They got everybody to say that we need to build the--

Hey, oh my god, they tried to kill Donald Trump, they're dinner, so we got to build the ballroom. What's the next beat of that story? What's the thing that you keep going? The president is constantly under threat.

They'll look Donald Trump. There have been people who tried to kill him. We take that seriously. But if you're going to try to politicize the White House correspondence dinner for whatever purpose,

whether it's just to make a Trump look like a victim, or look like a hero, or if it's to try to get the ballroom built,

“or whatever, you need that what's the next beat in the story?”

How do you keep it going? Oh, we have this Jim Komi thing in business sitting around for a year on the C-shell case. Let's bring the C-shell case. It keeps assassination attempts at the top of the discourse.

But it makes those other attempts feel un-serious. Of course not. They're making them feel un-serious. They tell you said that there was a tell in the investigation. Here's my tell in Cash's Language, and that clip.

That's suit, too, by the way. Man, he needs a new tailor. Talk about tells. Just he needs everything. It's all me and needs to change.

He needs confidence. He needs a life coach. He needs a speech coach. He does me and needs a change. Yeah, I love it when you use it.

Play carries himself. Fancy French words on this show. Does I want my change? Maybe he needs glasses.

“I should go to Williamson Eye Center in Baton Rouge.”

Maybe that we can help him out. Here we go. Especially though, we take alternate seriously. And then he says this, especially those involving threats to harm, hurt, or even kill individuals. Like throwing even in there is for me the tell.

It's like, even Cash doesn't really believe this. And he's kind of caveatting it. He feels too ridiculous to just say bluntly that James Komi was going to kill the president. I can't say that sentence because it was without laughing. And so even he gives a little tell there.

I attempted to saw it with a deadly sea shell. That's the one missing charge. There's only a photo on this. The sea shell. That's a poochish shell, not a sea shell.

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Your entire order. Go to getsold.com and use the code thebullwork. That's getsold.com promo code thebullwork for 30% off. One more retribution thing on your take on, which is the FCC now going after. Disney.

This kind of relates to our correspondence dinner.

I felt like the idea that journalists would go to, you know, when Trump is having a direct assault on many of their outlets in particular. And when he and when he was telling everybody he was going to take a shit all over them in public. There's terrible in your list and any circles like, Hey, Trump is telling us he's going to shit on us in public.

Let's go and honor him. What a good idea. So anyway, the day after the FCC is going after Disney and the licenses of some ABC stations. Based on, you know, I don't know, violations of D.E.I. or woke or something. Oh, that's right.

Yep. Vice-being kiss from Buzz Lightyear or something. And that has been there outrage. You know, we talked about this before.

“I think both the last time you were on, which is the mood in the media as,”

you know, Trump continues to go after them. Like obviously at the very beginning of the administration. Everybody was buckling. I think after the Kimmel situation, we got a little bit of backbone starting to pop up.

But I'm just kind of wondering what you think. You know, kind of the the environments like right now at media companies. And, you know, whether whether it's some more, you know, gumption building up or whether everybody's still pretty scared of the administrations.

Retribution campaign.

I always like my formulation about no false binaries.

And, and now people are saying, you know, two things can be true at the same time. You know, we have a new CEO at whose Bob Iger's successor, come in and Disney, who, who at first, we're very early in the story because of,

of just really only yesterday, that the car decided to go after those guys. Over these Jimmy Kimmel jokes that are like, you know, as Kimmel himself said, if what he said about Melania Trump,

and Donald Trump is, isn't somehow an indictable offense that we get you fired. Just about Donna Rickles. Kenny Youngman, you know, these people never would never have been able to work. Everybody who had the time ready roast would have to go to jail under that theory of the case.

“But I think, well, we've seen so far in early days here,”

is that the new CEO of Disney is trying to, to at least make it look like right now that he's going to fight, and that there's not even it be. As you remember, the first Kimmel thing, there was the capitulation,

and then they found their backbone when,

basically when the viewers were bolted over it.

I don't want to like sort of say that there's no one who took a lesson from the fact that that Disney won when they fought back on Kimmel before, that, and that people are thinking like, well, there's a way to win.

We don't have to capitulate on everything when they go after us. I think there is some sign that there are people in the business who looked at that Kimmel exchange it and took some comfort in that or some hardened and thought,

okay, maybe if we get, before on the receiving end of a Trump threat, whether it's a regulatory, a regulatory, a regulation threat, or a legal threat, that we can fight back.

And obviously they're placed in your times that have, when Trump is going to sue them, they'd say, "Bring it on." So there's some of that.

“At the same time, I just spent eight days in Los Angeles,”

and I would say they may be willing to fight back a little bit more, but the appetite for doing things that could incur the wrath of Donald Trump is, I would say not only not greater, but less.

There is nobody in the world of streaming television. Some of those powerful companies in the world, Amazon Apple Netflix, as the three main ones. And certainly we know what situation is now at Paramount. No one expects Paramount to suddenly be an outlier here.

There is less than zero appetite for anything that would be programming of a topical contemporary nature that might in one way or the other brush up against the Trump administration and potentially piss them off. There is a less than zero.

Zero is coming pitch us this thing, but we're going to then respectfully decline. Their attitude now is affirmatively don't come in this office until after Donald Trump has gone. Why?

Just trying to be honest with you, John, you'll be wasting our time wasting your time,

because we are never going to make anything

while Donald Trump is president. And maybe this will change. Maybe they'll be wrong, that they will change their minds. Something will happen over the next year

and they'll change their minds. But as of today, there is that attitude which is, yeah, we only want to do a perfunctory meeting on this, because we are never going to make this thing.

If it touches on anything where Donald Trump or anything Trump adjacent could come up and there's some chance that something that you or one of your colleagues or the, you know, on a show like that,

would say that would make them mad. The financial risk, the regulatory risk, the, it's just too great. Fuck it, we're just going to keep our heads down for the next two and a half years.

It's so crazy. You know, I talked about this a little bit with Nicole and Mark Elias yesterday and how, you know, these guys have been so incompetent at the, you know, active measures retribution.

You know, everybody is walking free. Right. They've won some settlements, I guess, with immediate companies. But yeah.

But overall, you know, they've lost, you know, time again in court. They've not successfully gone after any of their folks. Not even going after regular people, obviously, you know, immigrants and, you know,

but none of these high profile, people have suffered at all. And yet still,

“they've succeeded in the chilling effect.”

Like there remains cowardice, like a cross, the corporate CEO class, and Hollywood very acutely. You know, I would say.

And that's why it's so shocking whenever you see somebody step up, like who wasn't the one oil CEO in the meeting and was like, yeah, actually, this Venezuelan thing is a good for us, right?

It's like, oh, man. Like how refreshing. A rich person in a free country was able to just say when it's true about the president's bad policies.

Like this isn't North Korea after all. But the chilling effect side, they've still been effective at. Makes you wonder, like, what that person having some kind of an infarction

or something at that moment like, oh, I don't know what happened there. I was having a minor stroke when I said that's right. I took it back to President. But the weird thing about it,

this is actually something we did talk about before. Well, I don't have some previous version of this show or minor, something I can't remember. But, you know, there is one video platform that is actually growing.

Only one, even like Netflix, which is clearly the leader in streaming, right? There's subscriber growth in the United States is now basically flat. And they've brought all the live programming on.

There's not really much growth for the month. There's a lot internationally. They can still add subscribers. But here's not really growing. None of the rest of them are really growing

in an appreciable, like, like, there was the boom in people making the transition to streaming is kind of over. It's now a soul incremental. But there's one platform that is now,

I think, uncontestably, and everyone in all of this business would even say this. This is one platform that's growing fast

and is now the most powerful video platform in the world.

That's YouTube, right? And we're trying to get to 2 million subscribers on our YouTube page right now. So go subscribe. Hit subscribe, hit like.

Tell your friends. We're going for 2 million. 100%. And you can get the bowlers to get example. I mean, what is it?

It's what's April, right?

“I mean, I can remember back when you guys were 8,000.”

It wasn't that long ago. It was like after around the post comma Harris's loss, Trump's victory ended up 2024. You guys were under a million. You guys have doubled more than doubled

in the course of basically about a year, right? But you're not alone. There's other people in the suit, right? Because the platform is, and that's what's fueling them.

Forget about what you guys do well or don't do well. Sure. You are one of many people who are driving the growth of the platform. Hey, what's interesting about that.

How are you guys driving the growth of platform? By talking about politics? And I would say that's true of the far left. Really far left and really far right. YouTube's attitude, which is, you know,

we have a few rules, but basically we're not going to be afraid of political content. We're not going to be afraid of controversial content. We're going to let all these flowers bloom. We're not, again,

they might do a few annoying things about content moderation where you can't say certain words or whatever, but they're not like, we're not saying we won't put on, you know,

Hassan Piker. And we're not going to put on to her crossing. We're going to put on both and let it fly, right? And that's not the only reason,

but it is a reason why YouTube has become the most powerful

video platform in the world. And every one of these streaming platforms, they know that. They see the growth. They're terrified of what YouTube is becoming.

They're trying to get a bunch of YouTube. They're trying to, how do we tap into this creator thing? We're trying to get the YouTube juice all over them. Yeah.

But they won't take. But yeah. They're bringing in part in my take. We'll bring in Amy Polar's show, right? Like some stuff.

Yeah. What do they want? Touch anything. They look at it. God, we got that.

We'll do this. We'll do that. We'll do this. But none of it is working because they're avoiding the thing that's actually what's talking about.

Really at the core of what's generating the actual mojo at YouTube. And I just goes back to your point of like, this is not just about political cowardice. It's about a kind of,

“they're making what I think people look back on.”

It's an obvious economic and business model mistake. Not you set me. They are being cowards. But they're also short circling their own commercial interests by by being a such posses.

Yeah. And it's also misjudging. I think where the public is, and I think this is particularly obvious right now after the Iran war.

And that's what we want to talk about. Like his numbers could not be lovable. Right now. I guess they could be. But, you know,

he's seen very gradual. Well, they could be. Yeah, they could manage. The main thing is you can't imagine what it's going to turn around.

Like you're a serious thing about the bush line. It's not just that he's low. That you've crossed a certain point. It's that there was a point with George W. Bush and with other presidents where it's hit a certain point and the

dynamics are such that you're never going to turn it around.

It's unsolved. It's post, it's post Katrina Bush. He might, he might stop the, the collapse. But he's not going to suddenly get back to 48 again.

It's like, you're like, I've had a certain point. You're like, you're under water now forever, dude. That's it.

I don't want to get to the Democratic side in a second.

“I'm just looking at the Trump approval in two months ago.”

He's at minus 15. Now he's at minus 22. I know that's, that's a very significant drop in just two months. For somebody that for a long time was like pretty loud. Yeah, it is faith on faith with just high strongly favorable.

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And we're seeing a bigger window of people moving away from him. And we're seeing a bigger window of people moving away from him. And we're seeing a bigger window of people moving away from him. And we've moved into the period of the indefinite commitment.

He just goes, you know, he just starts citing Iraq and Vietnam and Korea. And as if those are like, well, we have, but there's long as Iraq and Vietnam and Korea,

“you're kind of like, well, we haven't, but what are you doing citing those?”

Those are like, well, until we get to the five year mark, you got nothing to worry about. This is a short war. It's like, I don't know, it's all very ominous to me. I think we could be there for a really long time.

And again, how does that help Trump get his out of the toilet politically? Yeah, I don't see that. I just don't see the way out of it. So I'm saying, yeah, even if it were to end soon, it's kind of like, okay, they just,

the House Armed Service Committee, they got headset over there this morning. I'm sure we talked about that more in tomorrow's show. But, you know, one thing that's come out of an already is they're estimating 25 billion has been spent. So it's like we've lost lives, 25 billion is spent.

The gas and food prices are going to be up at least through the fall already. Even if they fit, even if this magic effects tomorrow, because of the disruptions of supply chains and all that. And what? But it's like, would anybody have signed up for that deal on January 1st?

It's like, hey, we're going to lose American lives. It's going to cost 25 billion. Everybody's gas and food prices are going to be up and it's changed for that. We're going to get rid of Iran's ballistic missile capacity. And the street is going to be back open.

The street was already open. Like, what's the win? Right. And Iran's going to be more powerful than it was when we started.

Yeah, we had never made that deal.

And I say, you know, I had my old old friends, Adam, and bet us the energy of the economist on my show right now, the one that just dropped yesterday. And I, you know, I was asking about about this. And she's like, was explaining to me as the way someone who knows really does something about the global economy would.

Just like how the supply chain on oil stuff actually works. And how long it takes to, that's a very long tail. And she's like, the oil shock is coming. You know, and we could as to your point, if this all was all tomorrow, the way the supply chain works, you're not going to get the worst of it for another several months.

“And as we sit here today, I think it's the case that in Europe,”

the stocks of jet fuel are down to like days now. Right. The airlines are starting to cancel mass numbers of flights for the summer, like Lufthansa. The beginnings of the series of oil shock supply shock are going to hit Europe. And we're already hitting Asia.

They're doing rationing of diesel and across bunch of Asian countries. We will be the last to feel it, but we will feel it. And again, it's the point of what's going to turn things around for Donald Trump and for the Republican Party between now and say the midterms. Nothing.

This is all in the pipeline, so to speak. You know, there's no way to turn that around. And here's Trump's message this morning. Iran can't get their act together. They don't have a sign of non nuclear deal.

They better get smart soon. They better get smart soon. I just, I was raised by this in the next level. It was like for all of the messaging on the right about how much of a wet noodle Jimmy Carter was during the hostage crisis and how much of a wussy is.

I think people are afraid to say this about Trump because they're where they're going to bat him into doing nuclear war, which, you know, whatever. But like this is the most embarrassing, limp thing. Pros, what's like you started this war. You agreed to a ceasefire.

You knew you'd a latterly continued to ceasefire even though there's no deal. And now you're just like, you better get smart soon, Melissa. Right. You never know. And again, people are afraid to say this because to really make your point.

How many, it was like two weeks ago.

That Trump was threatening to annihilate their civilization from which they would never

recover. Like the bluster of, you know, you fucking lunatics better. You know, open up the straight you, you know. Like all that Easter Sunday stuff where he's threatening civilizational annihilation. That was the tenor of him a couple weeks ago.

And now he's going, you better hurry up and get sensible, you guys. And you don't forget to brush your teeth tomorrow. Yeah, like you can't see. Sounded like Michael Tracy, meet me at the Hampton Inn. Mollust.

I'm out here at the Hampton Inn. I'm ready to fight. Now, there's cheese. A new kind of reaction to the crisis that the crisis has made. Now, the package is ready.

“The best way to test a free test is to have a cheese hit.”

Now, the free test is ready. I'm going to do some poll-nirting stuff. Because here's my caveat. Yeah. I feel like I've been on character-scree optimistic.

I'm going to bring Cloud Tim once to come back for a second.

Because if it's there, I'm going to call this ring. I'm going to bring Cloud Tim. I miss it. Yeah, there's some blood of Kevin's. I mentioned that poll today.

From Langia Jane about Trump's approving down at minus 22. Yeah. And the same poll. Trump went from minus 15 to minus 22. The generic ballot has gone from D plus six to D plus six.

So no positive movement for the Democrats. The House Dems put out this internal poll. And you and I are old hands at this point. You know, when you turn out to put out an internal poll.

Like this is kind of on the upper edge of the margin of air.

“And so we're going to make it as good as possible.”

Right. It didn't really blow me out of the water. And some of the stuff's going to be a little nerdy for some listeners. But others like they put out is Arizona six. The Democrat is leaving by three.

But the Republicans just come on eat only one by three last time. So that's a six point swing. And Colorado three is when I know they say Trump is under water. Well, heard only one that by five last time. So the Iowa three, you know, Trump won by four last time.

Now they're saying he's under water. You know, this stuff is all good. The Democrats are still going to win the house. Like if you're just putting this out only through the constructive. I represent the House Democrats.

And this is good for the Democrats taking over the house. It's a fine press release to put out. But you know, there's just not a ton of sign in the numbers right now. That we're seeing as the bottom falls out from Trump. We're seeing people in red areas saying, okay, you know,

it's so bad. I'm going to take a chance in the Democrats. I understand there's plenty of time. It's only April. But I just, I do think, you know, I'm hearing a little bit more bullishness

on the Senate than I think the data indicates at this point.

“Well, I think the key, the key question here is which data.”

You know, and by that, I mean, we have, I would say these two big and differing data sets, right? One data says what the polling is telling us. And I'm not trying to be a rational exuberant about anything. I'm just trying to say, you know,

we have now over many, many cycles, Tim, as you know,

come to, we always find ourselves saying,

whenever various outcomes occur. We're like, man, the polling's broken. You know, we don't, the polling, we've just had the 2024. We said in 2022, we said it in 202. We said it in 202.

We said it in 202. We're costly, right? And yet, at this moment, you know, we're sitting at, I'm not like attacking you. But we always end up reverting back to the polling.

People who've done this for a long time, right? I will say it kind of the polling in 202 was better than the punt of tree. Actually. Yeah, sure.

Yeah, sure. All the things that we've had systematic polling flaws from going back to 2016 now, where it's been, where it's been quite, and yet we don't really fully incorporate that into the way we do analysis.

And the only reason I'm saying that is not because I'm a poll, you know, a descue or, or true through or something, but just to say that what we also have is another data set, which is what Democrats have performed

in elections from the beginning of Trump 2.0 to now. So just to take the most obvious example,

“you know, the Marjorie Taylor Green District, right?”

Where the polling didn't have a, what was I think a 25, 26 point swing in that district, a very, very red district that ended up being carried by a Republican, but you saw it like a 26 point swing in the course of two years. It's typified exemplifies what we've seen for the last 14 or 15 months.

So I think if you're going to make the case for Democrats are on the way towards whatever a wave looks like in the environment. Winning the Senate, structural awareness. Yeah, right, right. I honestly probably winning 52 senators

to protect yourself from John Fetterman switching parties. That's the bar. Right. If you're going to make that argument, the argument, the best set of data to support it is not the polling,

but is what, is the actual performance and actual elections over the last 14 months. I don't think anything is about this conclusive, but I do think it's worth at least contemplating that given a full decade of experience,

which tells us that polling is broken, has been broken, has been subject to systematic error. It might be worth at least equal, at least looking at both data sets and putting them and saying, well, the data over here is telling one story,

which is that Democrats are in a good position, but not great. Maybe not as, as the polling doesn't show the kind of overwhelming wave that you might expect, but the data from all the elections in the last 14 months

does sort of indicate that, and we'll see what turns out to be the case, but to the point we were making earlier, you know, there is not only are the macro factors that are driving voter sentiment,

kind of locked in in a bad place for Trump and Republicans, but on the other side, there's almost nothing they can do to counter-mandate. I mean, it's like, we're at the point we were almost out of runway for anything.

The legislation has not been very big on the Republican. They're not even claiming that they have anything to counter-mandate on the state. It's not even as if they have some message about, like here's the plan, fire bombing, Democrats,

with ads is like basically,

like negative polarization. I mean, in the absence of a Martian invasion that Mike Johnson and Trump and Caspatel repeled, and we had actual live video footage of them repelling a Martian invasion.

But as in the comments, they type situation. Like Bill Poles. Yes, and in the Penn State, they say, "Yeah, it's right." Right. Right. Right. Mike Johnson, it gets to be Will Smith and Caspatel,

it gets to be Bill Polman. I just don't see it. It says, "We're locked in." And the question is really only how much more it spins in the anti-Republican direction,

not the other way. I just don't see what those factors are that will turn around. I take your polling caveat,

because you just, why not? Why not do it?

Do it. We're 50 minutes in. Well, two polls out of Texas this week. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

You, T-Pull, has Calarico 42, Paxton 34, and that's a ton on decided. So Texas, public opinion research poll is more interested in. Calarico 46, Paxton 41,

Calarico 44, corn and 41. Right. Now, on the one way to look at that is,

“I don't know that Betta was ever up by five,”

even in the good campaign. I mean, maybe one poll. On the other hand, 46 is about what Betta got. So maybe there's like a ceiling,

a democratic ceiling there. But I mean, that's the best data points in the polling that we've seen from the demo for the Democrats. All year.

Your previous thing was, rain cloud is back. The polling is not that strong. Yeah. I have a certain thing.

Well, look at the results of the demo, how the Democrats have been doing. Like, a caveat, but a caveat in the direction of, of there's,

there's reason to think there might be, I don't know, he hates you. So we're wave, but whatever, Democrats are going to, overperform the polling.

Let's put it that way. You look at the Calarico 3, and you feel better rather than feeling worse. I'm just intrigued. It's interesting.

It's interesting. It's too poll numbers. You know, I don't, I'm not getting emotional about Texas Senapals.

I'm just saying that like, that's an intriguing data. Well, I'm intrigued also. And I don't get emotional about, about those things.

But I think Tyler Rico is a, is a super interesting candidate. And someone who I,

“I totally have my eye on as someone who,”

you know, could have a big future in national politics. I'm over indexing my attention on that race. I just all all say is that both of those polls are in their,

they're ties. And so for real, people who are, you know, sophisticated about this.

You look about those polls. They're both inside the statistical margin. They're tied. They're right way to talk about this. And not,

Talarico is leading in the Senate race. The right way to talk about this, to just these begins. Talarico is enough statistical tie with, either of the two.

And he's performing a little bit better again. It's Paxton and the, and this, in the, the mar of the band with the band of tie.

He's better again. Which doesn't surprise anybody. I think he can win the state. I think he can win by. I think it's going to be very,

very close. I don't think anybody should think, James Talarico is going to win. He would be helps enormously by Paxton being the, the nominee.

And I don't think even then he's going to win by ten points or six points. If he's going to, you know, you know, win by one or two,

if he wins. But I think it's going to be super competitive. The most interesting thing to me is that the, when see one, the primary.

Watching what they tried to do to money him up. And how little that had to be effect on him. Because I think that is really, you know, you saw the artificial wave of how they were going to try to

disqualify him. And as it hurt his numbers at all in fact, the numbers have gotten a little bit better. Speaking of Trump weakness, remember when he was going to bully,

can Paxton out of the race.

“Remember that to that whoever won the first round,”

he was going to endorse. Then the loser was going to drop out and they're going to do it for the good of the party. That didn't turn out to happen. Did it seem to have as much success bullying, Ken Paxton as he has the mollus in Iran.

And there's just, Well, I don't think he even tried. And I think the thing is there, again,

if you're looking for various data points, I know we are watching the, there's the Trump's general political standing,

but there is this really now for the first time really.

We are seeing, not just anecdotal, but empirical signs that the Trump basis is, is if not crumbling, is it wrote,

like real erosion in the mega base. That, the fact that he didn't try to bully Paxton out of the race, tells me the Trump knows that's right. Because like,

I think he just looked up and went, I don't want to be on the wrong side. My base, about all the way to the thing I most had, is my base.

I'm starting to see that it's starting to crack. And I don't want to like go and try to open up. I'm not going to do an exacerbate that by going out to the mega guy. I don't, how's it going to help me with my base if I'm,

I mean, his base is he's now insecure with his own base. If he goes after after Paxton and ends up on corn inside, there's just one more reason for the base to be like, fuck you,

you were a liar to fraud the beginning with. I don't know if this is a rain cut anecdote. I just saw this article yesterday, I was like, I bet he'll have a good stick on this.

Barney Frank is dying, which is sad. And he's got a book coming out. And he, according to the article in Flood of Cobb,

about his book, he's hoping to use his reputation and his record of being on the left to give courage to many of my colleagues. So I know it agree with me, but are inhibited from saying

that some of the left wing politics is making them too unpopular. He says until we separate ourselves from the far left agenda, we don't win. You know, Barney Frank obviously mostly known for gay rights, Frank Dodd-Frank,

you know, popular Northeastern liberal. And there's one way to look at that, which is like this is an old, like move aside old man. You don't understand where the world is going,

but the other way to look at that is, I don't know, maybe he is savvy, as he's seeing something. What do you make of the Barney Frank swansong?

I get mad, I can talk about Barney Frank all day. Barney was literally, by sheer coincidence,

not the first national magazine story I ever wrote,

but the first story I wrote when I became when I wanted to staff at the Economist Magazine in the fall of 1990 was about Barney Frank

because he had been involved with this male escort. And he had paid off a bunch of his part, he fixed a bunch of his part in tickets, and there was a thing in there that was around the house, Shimnezi.

I mean, it became a whole thing. And it'd been obviously a fabric of those days, Republicans were best. The escort was in the house, Shimnezi. There was the element of the story that involved

Barney and the escort in the house, Shimnezi, and engaging in some activity that was, not what we wanted to be doing in the house, Shimnezi. And the original Senate, Twink, kind of. Yes, exactly right.

Republicans really seized on that. There was so much homophobia. And the closet was so firmly in trench back then. But the main thing about Barney, he got past that. There were people thought it would end his career.

And he got past it, and eventually, you know, he's stuck around for a long time. He was by everyone's, and he is, I don't know what kind of condition he's in right now. But he was, if you asked a 435 members of the house

who was like the smartest member of the house, just pure candle power, like a high IQ, almost everybody would put Barney on the list of the top smartest house members they ever saw. Incredibly brilliant guy.

Very, very, very intellectually sophisticated. And, and, and, and savvy, funny, quick on his feet. Um, all of that, and it's not surprising that like the, the legislation that he, the Dodd-Frank is the legislation will be most remembered for because, you know, he was some very, very serious person

about a pretty complicated and very public policy.

“But here's the thing about about this thing.”

I haven't read what exactly. I don't know what's going to be in the book, but characterize the way you characterize it. The political experience that shaped him and his outlook on the world more than anything else is when he was the senior age Kevin White.

Uh, the mayor in Boston when the Boston Busting Experience happened in the early 1970s. If you read J. Anthony looks as book Common Ground in one of the most brilliant pieces of non-fiction writing anybody's ever done. So story of how Busting tore Boston apart in the early 1970s. Barney was the chief legislative aid to the mayor at the time.

And I think for a lot of people, uh, of that generation, the experience of going through a thing where liberals who had ostensibly and really committed to the notion of racial integration had implemented a policy that was what we would today call woke. And was a disaster for the party,

for the black kids that it was meant to help. That's the kind of thing that I think shaped his world view

and he was always a super progressive guy who kind of worried

the Democrats would pursue identity politics in ways that would harm, again, not just the party, but also harm in fact the groups that they wanted to try to help. So it doesn't, you know, weird way doesn't surprise me. It sounds a little bit barished to me.

There's the way it's been characterized, you know, and it was a little bit too easy to caricature. But the notion that Barney would be on that side after the kind of career that he had, doesn't surprise me. I mean, it's kind of his, his, his roots, his intellectual roots

were in, uh, a series of experiences that taught a bunch of people in that kind of clean generation, that kind of knee-jerk liberalism which, you know, became woke as a man. It's been his most easily caricature form later on that that was a bad bargain, again, both for the party politically

and for the, the minority groups that was trying to help. So I'm not going to surprise me in some ways. I'll be interested to read it, possibly. He's a very, he's, he's a smart guy. Senate Twink was a Senate staffer.

There's a video that leaked of him, but bottoming in the Senate hearing room.

And I always thought it was kind of offensive, uh,

because we never learned to the top was. And poor Senate Twink has, has now fled.

“I believe to Australia and New Zealand being so ashamed.”

He's somewhere far away. And we don't know who the other partner was. So it's a leaked video. If that interests you, it all you can go Google. So I just, first of all, when was that?

How like 2023? 2020, 2023. I think it's just awesome that I just gave you this long thing about Barney Frank and they were so prepared about the thing you came back to was someone who captured a video of bottoming.

It's like, I just, I mean, you're like, I've heard of this. I've never met him. I had nothing to add on the top of Barney. I just, you did exactly what I wanted. I just was.

I went to put a quarter in the machine. You riff about Barney Frank. I get a podcasting.

Finally, we have a couple rapid fires.

Then we're going to get you out of here. Yeah. You said to me that when you travel in the country, people were asking you to the same questions. How fucked are we?

And who's it going to be? We could do and probably will. To do tens and dozens and hundreds of hours on those questions in the coming year. Yeah, right.

30, if you only had 30 seconds, like a literally an elevator take on how fucked are we? And who's it going to be? What would you offer? I think I've to people mostly.

“I think that it's hard to tell how fucked we are.”

But but I don't think of it at the extremes that you see one of which is.

Everything going back to normal. That's one end of that. And then the other end of that spectrum is is. We're terminally existentially fucked. The country's ruined.

We'll never be able to come back.

I'm more towards the terminally existentially. But I'm not all the way there. I think the idea that Trump is going to go away in two years. And then everything. Hey, Mark Rubio that I'm going to be back to normal.

I mean, we could deconstruct that in a million ways. But I think there's been significant damage done to the fabric of American democracy. And the institutions that enormous that supported it. And there's going to have to be a serious effort to. In a concerted genuine way.

To do a large scale broad democratic. Revival reconstruction effort. And that brings you to the second question, which is who's it going to be? Well, who's it going to be if you ask me like, you know, is the Iowa offensive people?

“Do you mean like, who do I think the democratic nominee is going to be?”

Who's in the hunt for that? Or do you mean who do I think is going to save the country? And you know, when I the democratic nominee thing. You know, I think that the, you know, if you. It's it really is to really to say, I think, you know, we all think

that this matter pretty good 25, I think Gavin Newsom has a has a very high,

that two part challenge, one of which is how do you explain California?

Because you can't run on the California miracle. And that is the thing these have to explain. And the other thing is I don't yet hear him have any larger vision for how to do the democratic revival and reconstruction that we have to like, even if you're just going to talk about. Gavin Newsom has good ideas on policy.

And I don't think it's impossible, that's someone in this class in 20 years. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea.

I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea.

I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea.

I don't think that's a good idea.

I don't think that's a good idea.

I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea.

I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea.

I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea.

I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think that's a good idea. I like Josh Shapiro. I like Westmore.

“I can go on and make it a whole long list.”

But what we've learned in our politics right now is that if Democrats are going to win, the person who's going to do that is going to be someone who will electrifies the base and electrifies the whole party. It looks like the future. Among the group that people tell you that is in the kind of a group in the Democratic Party, it's not like there's an obvious, you know, at this point in 2028,

and in this point in the cycle in 2008, you could already, even though they had announced yet, Edwards Obama Hillary Clinton, you knew that that was going to be the triumphant. Those are three serious people. Anyone of those people could be the nominee and anyone of those people could win. I think you knew that by 2006.

You know, you could see that forming. There's nothing like that right now where there's an obvious three or two who are like, these are the heavy weights and these are the ones who could do it. So I tell people, I think there's still a lot. We'll know a lot more nine months from now about like who the potential people are.

That could be the person who is close with the hot take. We had yesterday a lot of discussion on the New York Times songwriters list. They hold other songwriters, ask people to get to nominate. Nile Rogers was number one. Let's send us on there.

It's not ranked though. The order is not. No Rogers is number one. It's just it's 50 unranked. They're not in binding. Yes, they did. He's on the list.

You want to read the whole list? Not really. I mean, I can't. I was hoping that you would just give. I people can Google it.

Yeah. Yeah, they're a Stephen Merritt. I felt like there's a shortage of indie rock on there. Stephen Merritt. The magnetic field.

Stevie was a decision.

“Living just as important as a living American songwriters, right?”

So that's an American song for limiting thing. You've got Jay Z on there. I think the most kind. Paul Simon's on there, Bob Dylan's on there. Bruce Springsteen's on there as you can imagine.

But also, Missie Elliott's on there, Taylor Swift's on there. Young thugs. Young thugs on there. Now, young thugs, bad bunny. Now, I think if you.

Fiona Apple, you know, there's a bunch of people have a bunch of. Of of issues with some of these people. Like I think young thugs, maybe the most. The if you just read the music. Geeks.

It's like the most controversial. You know, it's not not because he's controversial, but just like really what a 30 greatest living American songwriters. That seems like a little too a lot of people like maybe. And overreach Fiona Apple's recording.

He was 56. He was 56. That's Coachella. Young thugs. He was great.

I like young thugs. Young thugs. I like young thugs. Young thugs.

Really one of the 30 greatest living American songwriters.

Fiona Apple has put out exactly 56 songs. Ever. Total. You know, you can you stand that up next to Bob Dylan. Do they belong in the same list?

“Again, I think even if I hear Matt, Matt, Matt, Bayer and jerk.”

You know, like the national has many more songs written than her. I think all of these are credible choices, but bad bunning. You know, he's only been recording for eight years. I mean, dude. He really is a bad bunny done enough to really be in the company of spring steam policy,

and et cetera. I think that the most obvious. I was thinking about this because I knew you were going to ask the most obvious. I'm curious what you think of the most obvious of missions like where you're kind of like. Whoa.

How does this person on the list? This is a controversial thing.

Okay, controversial for a lot of reasons, but I think on the merits.

Kanye West should be on that list. On the merits of of of of of greatest American luck. Yeah. I got he's a horrible person. And he's gone totally crazy.

But I do is he one of the greatest living Americans on writers. As I don't think there's a rap writer. A hip hop writer who's been more influential or fine or greater than he is. Jason is belt not on the list.

“I think you would get anybody who lives in the world of roots country.”

Country rock, et cetera. Jeff Tweety. You know, another person. You a lot of people raise those. Jason's bullet Jeff Tweety and say, ah, there's a bunch of people on this list that I think could go.

And be exchanged for one of them. Casey Musgrabs. Is pretty good. That's a horrible combination. Okay.

All right, you're not really human is the most obvious. Yes, yes, yes, and there's a whole string of people. Randy Newman. Yes, I agree with that. Randy Newman.

I would have one of those people is almost in the Bob Dylan category as far as I'm concerned. But you know, there's, you know, if they're to your taste, you know, you have people who would put Jackson Brown on that list. People would put there's a whole bunch of 70s. Yeah. Classic rock people who aren't there.

A lot of people have been.

Have been citing, you know, any man kind of incredible.

Tom weights isn't on the list. Tom weights.

“I think you make a very strong case for Tom weights to be on this list.”

I wasn't sure Tom weights was still alive. So I wasn't going to know. Well, he just did this. He just did this protest song. It just came out the song that he did with massive tack.

Have you not seen that? You know what? I think we're going to leave it there, General. I'm going to go listen to the Tom weights protest song right now. And we're going to take people out with it.

Tom weights on that. Tom weights in massive attack. It's quite good. Okay. Well, everyone will get to listen to it now.

Because we'll play it for the, for the gang. Awesome. I appreciate your insight on all things. Senate Twink music. Bernie Frank history.

You know, we've got a lot of ground. And if you want to take a time. Get in the time capsule and think about how much how far we've come as a country Tim. Just go back and search. Bernie Frank and Dick army in Google.

And you will see what the then Senate house majority leader. How he referred to his colleague. Bernie Frank in public in 1995. And you will be shocked and appalled and you will also be like man. Things have changed for the better.

I guess kind of for modern days. I think the reply would be whatever tiny Dick army. Micro Dick army. You know, I think there's. I think there's a chance that actually we've already framed it.

Say. We'll leave it there. We've left you guys a lot of things to Google. Little Easter eggs. That's John Howellman.

We appreciate him very much. We have maybe one of the answers to. The question of who's it going to be on tomorrow's show. So. Oh, we got all of them.

Are you. Can I say who it is? You can guess if you want. Oh, let's see. Is it.

So I'm I'm Donny. He can't be present. You know, you can't be present. Yeah, I messed that up on. Alright.

That's John Howellman. We'll be back tomorrow. We'll see you all then. The board podcast is brought to you. Thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper.

Associate producer Ansley Skipper and with video editing by Katie Lutz. An audio engineering in editing by Jason Brown.