Jon Ossoff: Trump Is a Lifelong Racist

This is a music for your honor. The video is also released on Wednesday with Shopify. I can tell you one of the most important topics. I'm Charisa and my experiences with all entrepreneurs started with Shopify.

“I'm sure you'll find the first day of shopping. And the platform makes me no problem. I have a lot of problems, but the platform is not one of them.”

I feel that Shopify is a platform that can continue to optimize everything. Everything is super, simple, integrated and balanced. And the time and the money that I can never invest in.

For all of them, in Waxtum. Now, the cost of those tests on Shopify.com. Right, everybody. I've got a bunch of stuff for you today. The plan is going to be a double header in segment two. We're going to do a little MMA talk with one of the Wokeville crystal of MMA world.

“So I think that will be interesting, particularly with the big fight coming up in the White House grounds and of the, in there's more corruption than I even realized between Trump and MMA world.”

So I do stick around for Luke Thomas up first. We got John Osloff, you've got to heard about him. He has been hot on the stump lately. So it was excited to chat with him about his real act in Georgia, but also some bigger picture stuff.

Reminder, we have our live events in California, San Diego, downtown San Diego, made 20th downtown LA, made 21st.

I'm getting some fun stuff ready. So come on, come hang, pull the trigger. Let's do it. Before you to both of our guests, I taped both of them yesterday. So Wednesday, and I'm telling this Thursday morning, we have some news this morning that Janet Mills has dropped out of the main center race. I just, the main center race has been an absolute calamity. And I think that hopefully it doesn't end as a calamity, hopefully it ends a center Platner.

“But I do think it's important for the Democratic establishment to take this moment to learn from from what happened in the race.”

And the Democratic base is unhappy. They want fighters. They don't want people in their 80s. They want people that are going to demonstrate that they are up for the moment.

And so having the DC establishment try to force people on them is not only in that kind of work, it's going to backfire like we saw in Maine. And this is kind of related to the scientists who are still getting into it. I sometimes feel like I'm going crazy because I live through obviously there are differences. But I live through the populist base uprising and they're Republican party. Some of it is untainable, but there are things that can be done and there's things that shouldn't be done. The things that backfire and I watched it all. Like I watched it all happen. I watched how the limp Republican establishment just kept stepping on rake after rake is they watched the Tea Party and then eventually drum take over.

And so there's at least some lessons learned from what not to do that I can offer to people. And one thing not to do is try to feed a 80 year old establishment candidate lobster Biden onto an electorate that is told you they don't want it. Okay, if you want a fight in mud, you got to find a fight in mud. And I don't exactly know, I Dan Cleveland was in the race initially he's a beer guy in Maine who knows how well the good of a campaign he could have run. But the fact that Chuck Schumer went and pushed I kind of an independent minded mainstream democratic business man out of the race and pressured him and others to endorse Janet Mills's hopeless campaign.

And then went negative and started dropping up on grand platinum or long after it was obvious the platinum was going to win and it was just a comedy of errors. And the county of errors was based on a lack of understanding of what is really happening on the ground. And if you understood it was really happening on the ground and you were worried about platinum because of, you know, his history because he's a little bit of a loose cannon. Yeah, whatever reason, like if you have legitimate concerns that this is a risky bet for Maine.

Well, you had sitting there and outside or business man, candidate that, you know, didn't have quite as rowdy of a background. And maybe that went to work. Graham was super channeled it. Graham might have been winning anyway, but at least going the other way. There was a chance, you know, dumb and dumber. So you're saying there's a chance. And certainly if you're going to do this, like officially endorsing the established campaign, I mean, like the they cost Janet Mills points by by doing this by you being heavy handed and getting into Maine.

And then they lay out a bunch of conspiracy theories like you have to have lines around all this you have to recognize like this thing can spiral out a control.

So, you know, wasting your credibility on 79 year old Senate candidate. And demonstrating just total tone deafness ruined your ability to have any trust with voters when you're going to that and saying, hey, you know, this this thing is a true or this is out of line is just too far, maybe you know, maybe we need a different type of candidate to in this type of state. I mean, like they just the establishment is just totally torch their credibility. It's it's also related to the favor of interview with Ken Martin, but I'm sure many guys listen to over on positive America, it's like they got to wake up.

“They got to wake up and if they don't, there's going to be a violent overthrow of the party by the populist left and we'll see how that shakes out. So that's what we're at.”

We're going to be grant platenivers Susan Collins, obviously, covering that race a lot and just a total disaster class from Schumer and the DSCC and how to handle that race.

I will say, there's some other green shoots, including our guest today, including the recruitment of Mary Peltola and Alaska, some other ones. So it's not, you know, things are nuanced humans are valuable. They make smart decisions and mad decisions, they're running a great race in Georgia, have had some good recruitment and other places, but the main situation was basically a 101 and everything that you can do wrong as an establishment trying to deal with a populist uprising in your midst.

“All right, so that's that. There's a bunch of other stuff out there that we get into later on in the week. The gas price, like we could have hit an inflection point, I think, on the economic strife.”

The gas prices increasing that we're saying this week, particularly in the upper Midwest is pretty alarming and there's a lot worse to come on that front. That's going to have major ripple effects in our politics, I think that we are very, very early in the economic crisis and things are going to get worse before they get better and that's going to have a lot impact on the midterms and hopefully that'll. Help people like Graham Platner and the guest we're about to get to next. So stick around segment two, salute Thomas and then they talk, if you don't, I am not an MMA person. So even if you're not an MMA person, it's very 101 and I think it, it's shed a lot of important light on what's happening with Trump. So I encourage you to stick around for that, but up first, it's John Ossoff.

Hello and welcome to the Bowler podcast. I'm your host Tim Miller, delighted to welcome the show for the first time.

“The Democratic United States Senator from the state of Georgia. It's John Ossoff. How are you doing, man?”

Hey Tim, thank you for having me, man. All good. It is really good to have you. We got a bunch to get into a couple of news items. I wanted to start with on Wednesday morning, the Supreme Court nearer section two of the Voting Rights Act. It's going to impact have unclear but potentially have to a dozen or more majority black districts held by black representatives wondering your thoughts on the ruling and how to move forward from here. I think it's a disaster and it's the fruit of many years long effort to dismantle the policy legacy of a civil rights movement and the foundations of black political power in the United States.

And it makes me think about what President Trump has done and tried to do in Georgia since 2020 up to an including the recent raid on Fulton County where Tulsi Gabbard, the nation's spy chief, right? The nation's senior most intelligence officer, not a law enforcement official, was there overseeing over seeing and those are her own words that she used under oath in front of a Senate Intelligence Committee when I questioned her. The nation's spy chief overseeing a ballot raid in Fulton County. Well, why is it that Donald Trump has been so obsessed with Fulton County, Georgia and the 2020 election?

And in my view it's because this man who is a committed lifelong racist who recently posted memes of the Obama's depicted as apes cannot wrap his head around the fact that black voters and black political power in the American South was responsible for his defeat in the 2020 election.

I mean, it's a six three ruling and ends up going on part of the minds.

We don't know what's next as far as potential resignations. Obviously, there's some discussion of if the Democrats ever get back in power thinking about reforms to scotace expansion.

“What you think of the state apply the Roberts Court and what the potential would be done. Well, it speaks to how important these U.S. Senate races are because, you know, they will try.”

I am confident to push a Lito and Thomas off of the bench. And if they have the votes in the Senate, they will try to put 30 something MAGA, phonetic lawyers on the Supreme Court who will serve like literally for generations. And that will be if it comes to pass in some ways, the most durable legacy of the Trump presidency. And when it comes to controversial Supreme Court nominees, every single vote in the Senate matters.

So first of all, the Senate majority is in play.

But even if it were not, we would need to fight for every vote in the Senate to ensure that we can defeat the most offensive and extreme potential Supreme Court nominees who may have some difficulty peeling off some of the moderate Republicans. What do you think to that question, you know, it makes me think of the New Garland rule, you know, let's say that we get into next year and, you know, there are resignations on the Supreme Court. And at this point, I'd have to think that the Democrats would have to play a hardball in the same manner in which Mitch McConnell did with regards to that Garland Gorsuch seat.

It is very difficult for me to imagine in this political environment, given the crisis that the nation faces right now.

Democrats in the Senate feeling in a cooperative mood with respect to when he Supreme Court nominees from this White House. Another thing that's been happening this week when it comes to the Trump Justice Department is he's targeting political foes again the most recent is Jim Komi over the C shell meme. Cash Patel said yesterday there was a years long investigation into the shells that really looking deep into that 10 to 11 months. The day in the oval office the president was asked if he really felt like his life was in danger from the meme and he said probably so the president was saying that he was really scared that Jim Komi might be threatening to kill him.

“And that is why he sports the prosecution. What do you what do you make about I think we we have to step back and just acknowledge how catastrophically the Department of Justice has been politicized in very short time.”

How standards of independence that were long considered. Crucially important for presidents of both parties have been demolished. I mean the Department of Justice has a giant banner of the president hanging from it right now like some totalitarian force and. But the DOJ is just going after his critics and adversaries and chosen targets you know taking us back to the full and county raid and if if folks go back and they look at what. Tulsi Gabbard said about why she was there and that the White House asked her directly to go just think about the fact that the president of the United States is personally managing.

The staffing of politically sensitive. Law enforcement raids on polling places or election facilities in the United States while DOJ. And so it's a very important thing to do is to raise and lean blatantly goes after his political adversaries while they wield prosecutorial power to try to intimidate the Fed share to cut rates. This is banana republic stuff. And it has to be opposed every step of the way. And it's a matter of public sort of kind of laugh at the autocratic and like you know is I was really worried about the Facebook meme. They're the fish shells were there on the shore and they looked very intimidating.

“I mean the whole thing it's like it's farsical it's idioc and it's menacing and idiocracy together now it is and I think.”

To take the authoritarianism seriously as a threat to the constitutional order and our civil liberties and our civil rights we also have to step back and recognize that it's all grossly incompetent and their clowns. The power grab is being very hemfistedly executed and their hemorrhaging support across the country because what's the backdrop for all of this people suffering economically just this year alone new all time record high prices for rent for groceries for the power bill for a meal out at a restaurant.

It's also a big part of the reason that the national mood and the political momentum has so drastically shifted against this administration and toward the opposition.

Let's talk about the forward adventurism so we have the Iran war going on as of today. The president is saying that we need to keep the blockade maybe for a little while. I guess we have to keep the straight closed in order to open it hopefully in the future.

“I don't think there has been a strategy I think this is strategic and geopolitical malpractice and it's been a debacle for the national security and economic interests of the United States because first of all not only is the regime in Tehran intact.”

It now appears to be dominated by hard line IRGC elements who may pose even more of a threat to our national interests and who may be arguing internally against any kind of restriction on nuclear weapons development particularly now that. For them you know this is like the lesson of Libya versus North Korea from their perspective they may believe that they have more reason to sprint for a weapon on the basis of a stockpile of highly enriched uranium that they only built. The national Trump shredded President Obama's Iran deal over the objections of his secretaries of state and defense so you've got a more hard line and dangerous regime in Tehran which has now shown to the world that under heavy aerial bombardment from the two most powerful air forces in world history.

“I mean closure of the straight and throttle global energy supply and very swiftly in this conflict the President found himself in the dilemma where his options were to escalate or to lose.”

Now we're in this standoff that is doing immense damage to the global economy and our leverage in these nuclear negotiations which are crucially important because in Iranian nuclear weapons capability would be an existential threat to many of our allies a critical national security threat to the United States our leverage in that diplomacy is now diminished. It's important policy ramifications to this I want to get into with you but I just I'm struck by how humiliating this all is for Trump and how weak he looks and you give that speech a little bit ago now we're talking about how you know in day 10 he said the war was almost over you know in day 11 said we've already won originally when we started it was only unconditional surrender a couple weeks ago he's going to end their civilization and we have now here today.

“You know a president that is very limply like trying to hope that the Iranians come back to the table I and he just looks unbelievably weak I put my former Republican hat on I was like if a democratic president was this week in a counter negotiation.”

You would be mocking and be the littleing just how fetclists and humiliated he is and and I I just wonder if you think that there is any benefit in engaging in that kind of attack on the administration just given how embarrassing this is all that for them.

I deeply and sincerely regret the immense damage that this incompetent president has done to our standing in the world our position in the world.

Our national power to our economic power and to our alliances through his and his teams rank incompetence and amateurism this has been an ill faded ill considered debacle from the very start and the whole world can see it and they can never unsee it.

But there's a good news though we can say pussy again. You know so that's nice we can say he gets back in there will be able to say you can.

Well people can say pussy again and I think that's okay well that's fine I just I think it's convenient it's convenient for me is a podcaster for him to be acting in this way and also be freeing me to be able to say that the people are again but that's I appreciate that there's a post recently about how all the democrats are cussing that. It's like very in trend so you're not a big cusser is not really my thing not your thing do you have a favorite cuss word or.

I love that I love that my mother will she listen to this is going to kind of wish that her son was more in the center of us off mold where we're in different roles.

And back it's still that I could probably dial it back a little bit. The other I guess what even caught subtext to what's been happening with the war and really it's in the text is what it says about our relationship with this real. You had BV Netanyahu in the situation room making the pitch to Trump. Trump's son alone was there apparently even though he doesn't have a security clearance as well and you know talking about why we should get involved in this war pass presidents as actors of states of both parties.

I've been saying he's been making this pitch for a long time this is anything new but you know we have Israel.

And some level at least encouraging are involved in this disaster.

And then those are an ID you know concerns about the degree to which we're supporting Israel given the way that they're prosecuting the war and Gaza. And so I'm wondering you know as you sit here today how you think we should be thinking about our relationship with Israel and why that we should be reimagining it. Look I've been clear and outspoken about this for for years now.

“Israel is an important ally of the United States the United States is committed to the security of the Israeli people.”

But there's no such thing as unconditional security assistance to a foreign government. No foreign government is simply entitled as a matter of right to American weapons at any time for any purpose. We have no strings attached and it's entirely reasonable for the United States to use the leverage that comes with the provision of armaments to a foreign government to shape that foreign government's conduct. No matter how close an ally they are. And so where a foreign government's conduct is adverse to our interests or contrary to our values.

Then using that leverage using that power to advance the interests and values of the American people is not just appropriate it should be normal. And what do you think about that in the kind of Israel would also UAE Saudi. You know you have cutter giving gifts to the president. If UAE being in business or the president's kid Saudis and business the president's son-in-law. Israel I guess to some extent depending on what you make of the board of peace and what's happening in Gaza right like.

There was a promise made by this administration of the American people that they were not going to get us into these Middle Eastern entanglements and now we're more entangled than that. And I just wonder how you think about that going forward. And whether the U.S. should be trying to disentangle itself as much as possible not just from Israel but from all of defactional fights in the region.

“Yeah, I want to go deeper on the Saudi and Emirati connections because I think this is some of the most blatant and rotest conflicts of interests and corruption in the history of of white houses.”

But I also just want to put us on alert that we need to be watching like a hawk as this president engages with Xi Jinping.

Because the message that he and his family and his emissaries have been sending to the whole world is that the personal private business of the first family.

And the interests of the United States are in the views in the view of this president linked. That's the message that the world has gotten. And we have to be on alert that the Chinese leadership may see opportunities to influence the foreign policy of the United States by offering director indirect inducements. Commercially that suit the interests of the Trump organization. The president's business is his crypto venture his sons businesses his sons now with the sprawling business empire. It didn't suddenly become great entrepreneurs. It's just that the whole world thinks they can curry favor with the president of the United States by patronized patronizing his families businesses.

I mean Jared Kushner who had already received through his private equity farm affinity partners billions of dollars of Saudi investment. Very substantial. Emoradi investment has been reportedly going around the Middle East asking for billions more from princes and shakes in the region.

“While moonlighting as the special envoy or whatever they call him leading the most sensitive American diplomacy. It's grotesque. It's absurd and I think that the American people see it for what it is.”

It is another reason that a wave is building toward these midterm elections that is going to rebuke these abuses of power and this corruption in a historic way. Why has the Jared been up on the hill more testifying about all this? It is insane. I mean if he's the lead negotiator and in addition to all things you just laid out. I mean Saudi in particular is a geopolitical rival to Iran. Why would Iran trust a counterparty that is on the take from one of their strategic rivals?

Well I mean and of course you know you know the answer to that question. I mean today to my knowledge this is the first time that the Secretary of Defense has even testified in public since this war began two months ago.

“And the Republicans in Congress have shown zero inclination zero inclination to use their oversight power and any meaning to take a money though when when the Democrats are still in power.”

I mean that this could have happened during the Biden years. I guess it's really my point.

That's a fair point and that's a fair point. And it probably should have although I will say I don't think he was occupying the same sort of role of diplomatic prominence during that period. He was clearly advising the administration on form policy during the first term. But look that the oversight and investigations muscles in Congress generally have atrophy. I mean that the Republicans in office right now are living in fear of the White House. They're not going to impose any accountability or transparency.

But I'll just say generally even I've spent the last few years using oversight power and Congress to investigate civil rights abuses in our prison system to investigate abuses and ice detention to investigate the mistreatment of military families by defense contractors.

“And part of what's happened in the United States part of the reason that power has shifted so much toward the unaccountable executive is because Congress doesn't bother doing real investigations and real oversight.”

You don't have to travel far to lend a helping hand when neighbors help neighbors hope can blossom when hope blossoms families and whole communities thrive.

The dedicated staff and volunteers of the Catholic Charities Network believe a neighbor isn't just someone who lives nearby or down the block. Someone who shows up sticks around across distance or discomfort. It's the one who acts with compassion and follows through and carries on in moments of need. For more than a century the Catholic Charities Network, 169 agencies nationwide has served communities across the country and down the street. No matter beliefs or differences whether it's through housing, food, disaster relief, job training or simply listening.

Because when you faithfully serve as a neighbor, the life you change may be your own. Be the hope around the corner in your neighborhood nationwide. Learn more in volunteer at peopleofhope.us. I'd like to come back to this one. This is obviously become a flash point in democratic politics. You know, the question of whether candidates are getting money from APAC has really come to the forefront and a lot of the primaries that are ongoing APAC attack you last year.

I just wonder as a Jewish democrat, how you think about this and how you have talked about it in a way that may disentangle Christians from Israel, from like legit concerns about rising anti-Semitism in the country.

Yeah, I mean, I'm like the first Jew elected to the Senate in Georgia history.

And maybe if you're willing to throw in your show notes or a description here, a link to some of the speeches I've given on the Senate floor on this subject. The Jewish community is not monolithic in its views of American foreign policy and its views of the US as real alliance. Jewish voters, Jewish Americans have a wide range of views and see the complexity and nuance inherent to complex foreign policy issues.

“What I have done is taking the decisions and made the statements that I think are in the national interest and in my constituents interest and let the political chips fall where they may and I think that that's my job and that's the oath that I took.”

This is given your background and you've talked also about how your ancestors slide pogroms and you grow up around Holocaust survivor relatives and I just, I don't know it's hard. I think that I've become increasingly critical of Israel over the last couple years because their actions have called for more and more criticism right at the same time you also have seen like I see on social media and elsewhere attacks on Jewish people that I don't think are really related to Israel's actions at all. It's an increase of that and I've seen some of that from the left so I just kind of wonder, you know, how you kind of process that and think about that, particularly when it's coming from inside the tent.

We've got to be able to hold a complexity in our minds at once, a desire for the state of Israel to be secure and successful does not in some way for mid criticism of the Israeli government or the Israeli leadership or imply that American security assistance to Israel should. Unconditional at all times and for any purpose and the fact that there is legitimate grounds for critique of this foreign government also doesn't mean that some of the criticism isn't motivated by religious animals or or bias. So, you know, look.

And among that is potentially cutting back or eliminating military aid Israel and like how far have you been willing to go on that. As I've made clear in my remarks on the Senate floor and the votes that I've taken.

“And as I said to you earlier during this interview, I don't think any foreign government, no matter how close an ally, whether it's the state of Israel or the United Kingdom is simply entitled to American arms.”

Another sale and provision of weapons to foreign governments is a serious matter that needs to in your to the interest of the United States. And we need to have confidence that those arms will be used consistent with the law of armed conflict and with the values of the American people and it is okay to say no in order to influence the conduct of foreign governments. The concerns that the use of those weapons is inconsistent with our interests or our values. You had a new ad out earlier on Wednesday going after pharma, after corruption, broadly I'm going to play a little bit about.

You aren't the problem. Neither are your fellow Americans. The problem is a corrupt and failing political system.

The problem is that the people's elected representatives don't represent the people. They represent the donors and special interests. Corruption is why things don't work for ordinary people. To fix it, we have to understand it. Corruption's impact is an abstract. It shows up in our daily lives.

“Take prescription drugs. The cost of medicine in America is astronomical. But how have they gotten away with every election cycle?”

Drug companies spend millions on campaign contributions to Republicans and Democrats to shape policy and protect their profits. And members of Congress fall in line. It's corruption in plain sight. Why engage on this now? Why this issue? And what do you think you want voters to know about? Well, first of all, because it's top of mind for my constituents. I mean, health care costs are the number one issue in Georgia. The thing that folks raise with me the most when I'm out on this stump with the attacks on the Affordable Care Act.

You got health premium skyrocketing, more than a quarter of a million Georgians have lost their insurance altogether in recent months.

People are furious about drug companies ripping off the American people. And the point that I'm making here, you know, whether it's in my speeches that I've been giving it rallies across Georgia or this video we put out today is we have to recognize that political corruption in the United States is systemic. Yes, the Trump administration has taken overt brazen corruption to a whole new level and there has to be accountability for that. But in some ways, in my view, Trump's rise is itself a symptom of the deeper systemic failure,

especially since citizens united, which just opened the floodgates to secret spending billionaires spending corporate spending on both sides of the aisle and has has corrupted the policy making process in a way that that doesn't represent the interests of the American people. And we can contain this present wickedness and contain the administration, but if we don't fix this more fundamental thing, I think our republic is still going to be in a tough spot. And what does that look like? What's something that you like to do to fix that, you know, that is not related to the unique Trumpian corruption?

“I think the most pernicious thing, the most destructive thing is the unlimited secret political spending. I mean, and it doesn't pass.”

But that's a Supreme Court thing. That takes us back to the Supreme Court question of the beginning. How do you fix that without fixing the court?

I think that first of all, we can and we should try to get it through statute and some of it is also a constitutional question.

But here's the thing, don't you think we could build like an 80, 20 majority to address this? There is no reason that the coalition that we could build to reform our corrupt campaign finance system should be limited by partisanship. Like if we were to go up to, maybe we should do this. If we were to walk up to people on the street in Georgia, Democrat independent Republican unafiliated non-border, whatever, and say, hey, does it make sense to you that a corporation or a spectacularly wealthy person can spend unlimited amounts on political campaigns in secret?

I want to run through a couple things rapidly to really cook for our loser. We'll get to the fun stuff. Well, this would be fun for me actually. Where are you at on impeachment? I'm kind of torn on the question of impeachment.

“Well, I think that the president's conduct within, I don't know, the first days or hours of his swearing in this term exceeded the threshold probably for any past impeachment.”

I can just think of right off the top of my head multiple impeachable offenses. People speculate about the political wisdom of it and so on and so forth, but like just taking a step back whether it's this or just the necessity of oversight and investigations that there does have to be accountability for misconduct just as a governance question. And I don't think that the choice is between economic policies and the interests of America's working middle classes on the one hand or exposing wrongdoing and ensuring there's accountability for it on the other. I think both of those things are necessary.

You don't seem to post on social media yourself, but this goes against the conventional wisdom now politicians need to tell us everything need to be authentic. You know, we need the vertical video of you and your kitchen talking about your feelings. What's why why is that not you? If if I were to post on social media every hour that would not be authentic, I don't like it. I don't like social media. You're not a poster at heart like me. I don't have it on my phone. I'd you know, I see the importance of the power of reaching and organizing people using this technology, but I'm not going to pretend to be, you know, extremely online hour by hour when that's actually not how I live my life.

“Maybe there's some wisdom in that that can be related on the next question. I was wondering what your thoughts are on this trend with young men called looks maxing.”

You know, right now you have a lot of young men right now who are a drift. Yeah, and I think for whatever reason the maga movement was did really well at appealing to them going into the last election feels like they're back up for grabs and you're seeing one of the things that. What I'm turning to is this very online, you know, kind of the bashing their faces, they're trying to look more and more handsome. They're kind of going through a lot of young women really going through an earlier social media age, you know, being very sensitive to looks.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on like that trend and kind of the direction of young men in the country.

I mean, I, I, I'm concerned about first of all, the mental health crisis that's impacting a lot of young people who experience intense loneliness and who struggle with addiction to social media and, you know, a generation of young people who is high school and college experiences were so disrupted by the pandemic. But at the same time, this technology was getting better and better at, at hooking us and drawing us in, they were also deprived of the kinds of relationships and social interactions that bring that bring meaning to life.

And I think we've got to make a decision as a society to re-engage in, in genuine togetherness, whether we're, you know, in our 20s or, or my folks generation, because that, you know, that the folks running Silicon Valley would be perfectly happy for us all to just sit on the couch with blue light in our eyes scrolling mindlessly and consuming whatever the algorithm serves us.

And forgetting how to actually be with each other because that sells more ads and gets more engagement.

“But they're spying on us and manipulating us and, and, and, and addicting us to these technologies and in order for us to, I think, achieve our, our potential together as a, as a nation in order for us to be happy and functional.”

We got to, we got to have to get back together in physical space and, and recreate shared experience.

Lastly, I hope these aren't private questions like your favorite curse words. The people want to know what your arms routine is.

And whether you really like imagine dragons, so that's real. So, so we need both of those before we depart. So, I grew up with Daniel Platsman, who is a very close friend of mine. It was the founding drummer of that band. So, okay. I have been a fan. I've been a true fan since before they were, you know, well known and Daniel's an amazing musician and, and he's also a great film score and, so I hope you should look them up. Look up Daniel Platsman and the arms routine. I just try to, yeah, I try to work out when I can every day. If I can actually told my, my, I know you've been talking to some folks on my team.

sleep, nutrition, exercise, mindfulness. These are the, the building blocks of, of good work. And, uh,

“Just blew my heart coming together right now and seeing blew my heart coming. I think, I think this is like, um, I hope this is fairly non controversial with them.”

We can all agree on. By ducking those, is it triceps or, you know, like what are we, you know, I try to get a well-rounded workout in, you know, I try to mix it up day by day, get different groups in. I don't know if you, I don't have a secret arm routine. I'm hiding you down. Okay. I'm not like an expert on cloud or talking about how to define the arms. They look good in a, in a suit shirt. No, we have not had that conversation. Okay.

Well, uh, people would like tips. So I'm just throwing that out there. You didn't provide any on this show. But as the campaign goes on, if you have any thoughts on what's happening to, to make the arms work, I think people like to hear that. Okay. Let me, um, let me reflect on this. Okay. Let's just tell you what's happening.

That's said, or John, we covered all the important topics. I hope you'll come back soon. You're running for reelection.

The websites elect John.com. Yeah. It's pretty relevant that we didn't spend a ton of time on the election to show how strong of a campaign you're coming, you're running.

“But people, people shouldn't take it for granted. And, uh, yeah, and if you can't even find out thoughts on that.”

Yeah. And, fact, I, again, it's elect John elect j-o-n dot com. And in, in all seriousness, like a year ago, I was worried about despair and people being so addicted to their misery. That they could not see their own power and the necessity of action. If anything right now, seriously, I worry about complacency. This race in Georgia is going to be the hardest fought center race in the country.

The national GOP is going to spend like hundreds of millions of dollars to try to unseat me. This is a tough battleground Senate race.

And I need people's help and you can help me at elect john.com.

Appreciate it so much that center john asks. I'll talk to you again soon, brother. Thank you. Thanks so much to center john asks off of next Luke Thomas. Delete me makes it easy quick and safe to remove your personal data at a time when surveillance and data breaches are coming enough to make everyone vulnerable. It's easier than ever to find personal information about people online, having your address, phone number and family members names hanging out in the internet can have actual consequences in the real world.

And make everyone vulnerable. Delete me protect your personal privacy, the privacy of your business from doxing attacks before sensitive information can be exploited. You know, I'm kind of an open book these days. I'm blurtin' out what's happening in my life. You know, when you hear about somebody that they keep things close to the vast, that is not me.

Usually know exactly what I'm thinking just by looking at my face. And so as a result, I'm also a little fast on loose with the amount of information I have online. But as we've grown here, the ballwork that leads to potential threats and trouble makers and other fuckery. And so delete me has brought me some peace of mind. And thanks to delete me, my data isn't flowing out there for bad actors to use and we can update it constantly.

And they make it easy. Taking 12 of your data and keep your private life private by signing up for delete me. Now, to special discount for our listeners, get 20% off your delete me plan. And you're going to join delete me dot com slash bull work. Use promo code bull work.

“It check out the only way to get 20% off is to go to join delete me dot com slash bull work.”

And enter code bull work. It check out that's join delete me dot com slash bull work code bull work. Delight to welcome to the bull work by popular demand. It combat sports analyst host of morning combat. You can also find them on substector.

But he's on substector these days. And he's got a YouTube channel, Luke Thomas gets political. It's Luke Thomas. As mentioned, you know, there are some in the MMA UFC world who've been like messaging me. You've got to get Luke Thomas on.

For others, like me, dainty, almost actual, so don't know anything about UFC. Can you give those in the audience just like a little bit of a, you know, I don't know. Like a first date. I could get into all this where you get into a lot of fights in high school. You know, what exactly is your purview?

No, um, I was a math elite in high school. I was not anything like this, but I decided to join the Marine Corps to limit does not exist. Yeah, right. I decided to join the Marine Corps out of high school. I joined a graduate at high school in the front. I went to boot camp on a Monday, but I also went to college at the same time.

Marine Corps does not have an ROTC program.

That's what I chose the latter.

“I was with hotel battery 314 fourth maridiv at a Richmond Virginia for the entire time,”

which was an artillery unit. And this was 98 to 04. And then I had watched MMA coming up as, you know, 94 as an American teenager, just like, you know, amazed at what had happened. And then kind of got back into it after the Marine Corps had kind of,

well, during that time, but like really picked it up after the Marine Corps time had ended. And this was right when in 2005, the ultimate fighter, the reality show on Spike TV had hit and it just sent the sport into another stratosphere.

And I never really intended to be honest to do any of this.

It just, I caught a wave at a really strange moment in time. I was actually doing, you know, political messaging and speech work in DC prior to that. And I got, I hit up low. I'll tell you off the air. I actually don't even want to say on the air.

I mean, that couldn't really worse than the people I worked for. I actually think it's some of the same ones, actually. Okay. So anyway. I hated it.

I hated it. I hated it. I hated it. And so I made kind of took off.

“And I was like, maybe I can do something with this.”

And yeah, many years later here I am. What did you hate about being a speech writer? You know, you could have been on the John Fabra to Jack Tray. They kept giving me clients who were so reprehensible. I hated my life.

Got it. Literally, I've from stress. This is a true story. My fingernails fell out on that job. Like one or all 10.

Uh, we're not all at the same time, but one after another. Yeah, really. It was terrible for my health. It was, I just, I couldn't do it anymore. I only did it for two years.

And I hated it. And then I, you know, I found a way out. You know what that says about you is that you're a better person than me. You have more integrity on the inside because I worked for terrible clients for much longer than two years before. I felt like I couldn't, I couldn't take it anymore.

Um, so it's better to come around than to never come around.

But, uh, something to be said for only being able to handle two years. So then you get into the MMA world at just always in the kind of media side. Yeah, so I was in the corporate media side as well. I worked for Vox Media for a long VOX, Vox Media. I was an SB nation at the time.

I had a serious XM show. Nationally, I was on Spike TV. I would have put show time, CBS sports. I mean, you kind of name it. I've done basically everything you can really do in the industry.

And, uh, now to your point. I'm on sub-stack in YouTube. So talk to us about, like, for somebody is now excited. Like me, it was kind of funny hearing you tell that story. So like, and on Spike TV, there's the ultimate fighter.

And then we went into the stratosphere. Like we're about the same age. And I was like, I don't remember. I don't remember any of that.

You know, it's like, this just was just never of interest to me.

And so when the Trump MMA stuff started happening, like feeling the overlap started happening, they're going to fight. I recognized that it was popular, of course. I have some friends that are into it. But I didn't have the background to kind of understand, like, where this overlap was happening.

Like, what was driving it? Like, I got it on the WWE side. I did watch that as a kid and kind of understood Trump's backstory with them. And how he kind of knows about K-fabe and storytelling. But this is different than that.

It's real fighting for starters.

“From your advantage point, like, when did the, kind of, like, merging of the politics and the MMA world start?”

And like, what is underneath all that? This is a more complicated answer because you could even go back to 1930s Brazil and the origins of the Gracie family. These are the people who were the original, like UFC one. Stars, Hoys Gracie was the star of that. He was using jujitsu, kind of like wrestling with pajamas essentially to beat people much larger than him.

And it was this revel-- it actually in general really was a revelatory moment for anti-an combat. In terms of understanding what worked and what didn't and what was valuable. But like that family in the 1930s, a part of the integralist movement, which was a, like, a validly openly based on European fascism as a fascist movement. And, um, oh, we got to integralist-- no, I know about that. Yeah, right.

I mean, I guess like, you know, flip it back. They come back. Yeah, they come back. Any event. But like, you know, in terms of the majority of my time covering the sport, it really had no relevance.

Uh, whatsoever. And in fact, what you really have to understand is that the UFC post ultimate fighter. So they have this reality show on Spike TV. The American public seized them for the first time. The ratings are very, very good.

But more to the point, it launched the sport into the stratosphere. The sport was hanging on by a thread. It was barely allowed on television. Certain cases are paper view. It wasn't even up until many years later.

It was not allowed in most states. And this show changed everything. But when that happened, you got to understand the pitch that they were making. The point that they want to make was, we're going to show you that this top of sport is for everybody. Kids, adults, old, young, male, female, black, white, gay, straight.

In fact, Tim, the UFC no longer does this. But they used to sell a shirt that said we are all fighters. And it was written numerous times on the shirt, all in the colors of the gay flag, right?

They said they've since taken that one down.

I don't think that they're into that kind of messaging anymore. But there was a point in time where they were, where they were clearly making this pitch. You asked about when the switch happened. Dana White speaks with the Republican National Convention in 2016. But even that is really not the answer.

“And the pandemic itself began to, I think, send white in a particular direction.”

But it was after January 6. It is 2021. It's the summer of 2021. UFC 264. Donald Trump had made one appearance at that February seepack.

He recall after Jan 6. And then one in that summer. And on that same weekend, he goes to this event in Las Vegas, which had a condom of regular on the car. So it's a very, very important event in the UFC calendar.

And he makes his return. And what you really have to understand is that UFC didn't many things for Donald Trump. But there is no private actor that I can think of in this during the Biden years and in the 24 election that did more to rehabilitate Donald Trump's image than the ultimate fighting championship.

They laundered him completely among other things that set in motion these forces. Yeah.

“And so is that relationship based between Trump and Dana and and Rogan?”

Or like where there's some policies that UFC, you know, didn't want to be regulated by the lips or was it, is it like a cultural thing? You think there is a affinity from like this is like an outsider league. And he's seen as an outsider. Like what do you think it was?

Like what was the tie that found them even after the insurrection? It's a great question. And some of this does remain murky. And some of this I'll just be honest is speculative to disagree certainly. Donald Trump, it should be noted.

I have nothing but a tip of the for the man. But it should be noted if you were to say true or false is he a real fight fan. The evidence is on the side that he is. This is a guy in the 90s that that did. This isn't true about some of the other sports.

Like he can make, you know, he can make football references from like the 90s. But when you hear him talk about the modern day stuff. Yeah. If you hear him talk about anything in the modern day, he's falling straight. I mean, his ability to hold coherent conversation is substantially challenged.

But the point I'm trying to make here is when the UFC first sold to the company or the ownership structure that took

it over in 2001 that Dana White was a part of. He was not a part of it early UFC. He didn't take it over until 2001. The first two shows that they had as a consequence of that were at the trunk Taj Mahal. And so a lot of folks out of pinpoint those moments is like,

this is the date from when they were growing because to understand something to be in 2001 to be in New Jersey actually is quite important because that commission is one of the more established ones. The state athletic regulatory board. And they were willing to sanction UFC within their system. That was kind of a big deal.

But being a Trump Taj Mahal was not a big deal. It didn't mean anything. But the one I would like to make is that actually is not the place where they began to develop a fruitful relationship. There is evidence to indicate in the late 2000s that they were actually kind of a little bit of friction between the parties. But somewhere they come back around together circa 2016.

“I think Dana White became much more rich at that time.”

I think a lot of rich guy politics tends to intersect. But you asked about what was really binding it. And my personal belief is there is some ideological symmetry between them. But it's more about a willingness to get transactionalism through each party. The DOJ under oh sorry the FTC I should say under Obama looked into the UFC two times during the 2000s and kind of looked the other way.

And now what they're trying to do is this is true.

The first piece of legislation this year that Congress has taken up in terms of the labor force is a piece of boxing legislation

to essentially hand monopolistic control over to a single dominant firm. They get this because of what I was told on Capitol Hill was the White House was kind of leaning on Republican lawmakers to push this through. That is part of it. The lack of regulatory scrutiny.

They now have huge monopolies over this parent company through TK. It's called TKO at owns WWE at owns UFC. It's owning now other verticals that they're trying to put in place. So you get this like the regulatory wind that you're back in a way that is generationally impossible by virtue of this transactionism. But I will say this a lot of people say oh does Dana White have the same politics as Trump.

I mean, I don't know exactly. I've heard him repeat election denying stuff before kind of vaguely. But the reality to me is it doesn't matter if you did your part in substantial portion to return this political project to power. You are on the hook for it. It doesn't matter whether you agree with every part of it. Year after year after year Tim of trying to make sure this guy got in the public eye to rehabilitate him during the Jack Smith indictments,

during the trial in New York City, during, you know, you name it, Jan. Six stuff. And they went out of their way to lift him at that time. You're on the hook for what comes next. It's funny. Listen to you talking about that.

There's this period of time where there is a big push for anti-trust cuts a lot of different verticals like the populists.

“Like the maga populists are like we can work with the left populists on this and anti-trust is important because it's going to help the workers and the people.”

And I just, like listening to you talk about the transactionalism, you know, one tie that binds these guys is like the fake populism. Right like this idea of like, oh, I'm going to talk like I'm on behalf of like the regular guy, but what I'm mostly care about is enriching myself. And you know, it seems like that this legislation and, you know, kind of the deals that they're doing having having them on the White House. You can get to next like his all and effort to enrich the people at the top like Dana himself and his partners.

And that's similar to how Trump is active in a bunch of different areas where there's like a lot of populist rhetoric, but really, you know, he's lying in the pockets of himself and his moral ego buddies. Consider the following, consider this, Mark Wayne Mullin, when I interviewed him maybe 10 years ago, a little bit less me nine years ago, he was a congressman, Mark Wayne Mullin from Oklahoma. He is a former MMA fighter. A lot of people clash. No, he was a fighter.

He was in five fights. So he was in five fights. That counts. That counts. I mean, I don't know.

Here's what I'm going to say, people try to make the wrong.

I saw your episode on this, people try to make the wrong argument about it. Well, sort of, the argument is not, was it semi-pro, was it pro, it was pro, I mean, there's not an argument, it was pro.

“But what you have to understand is like, pro in regional Oklahoma, like, not a significantly difficult strength of schedule.”

Let's just put it that way, okay. I mean, he was fighting, make a wish kids and shit like that. And, you know, just like absolutely, like, I don't know if there was odds on his fights, but if there were, you know, they were heavily favored in his regard. Nevertheless, he trained, he fought, there's something to be said for that. But the problem trying to make is, in 2017, as a congressman, Mark Wayne Mullin tried to take the existing law that I'm referencing on the books.

It's called the Bahamad Ali Boxing Reform Act. It is a piece of labor protection for boxers that was put in place by John McCain in 2000. Okay. He tried to get that. I was helping him from then getting from screwed over by the promoters and stuff.

Basically, I mean, there's more to it than that, but that's a basic idea.

Basically, I would understand it. He tried to put legislation forward that would have extended it to MMA, because it doesn't apply to MMA. It only applies to boxing. And in fact, had UFC executives on the hill in hearings, like cross-examining them, like getting testing with them. And then, when the Trump UFC alliance became into focus, and he became a senator, all the fighters who were initially part of that effort to get it extended, they called up Mark Wayne Mullin and said, "Hey, let's get this going. He had no interest in it."

Whatever. The point I'm trying to make is of course, this transactionalism reveals that it's only about the top 1% or the approved parties. But I'm just also trying to underscore even a guy like Mark Wayne Mullin, who had kind of a little bit of skin in the game, and tried to do some good when Maga sort of priorities became clear abandoned it immediately. These people believe in nothing. It's very revealing.

To talk to us a little bit about what's going to happen at the White House and what the buzz is about that around MMA circles. The way to understand this White House event is think of it as two different events simultaneously. It's just one, but try to wrap your head around it. There is one side of it. Let's call it with inside the bubble. How is the community viewing it?

And they view it as, it's a smaller fight card, a fight card can be up to 10 or more fights. This one is small. I think it's just seven. They were sick. They had one last minute. It's a smaller fight card. However, two of the top best guys in the sport are in the main and the co-man event. It has real relevance. And within the sport, for a sport that had really hard time getting regulated that nearly went away completely. The ability to say, "Hey, we're in the White House. This means something to us. We have ascended."

And there is, I think, something to be said for that. But there is going to be an event, a fighting event on the White House lawn. They're building this sort of crazy structure. Just on the other side of that street there on the space called the Ellipse where Trump gave his Jan six speech, by the way. They're going to have a crowd to watch it. Not so much like directly watching it, but on screens out there. It's just kind of like a big event. But that's only one side of it. The other side is like, "Why is this event happening at all?"

And the answer is, this is the reward from the Trump administration to the UFC for what can only be described as their unique contributions to keeping him out of prison.

“There's really no other way to say that. That's why this exists. It is sports-washing of the highest order.”

It is a political reward in giving them something that he gave them. I mean, a mainstream sport that was really hot during that portion of the pandemic, putting all their chips in on a guy.

This is the return to them for that. And so a lot of folks, let me just say this. A lot of folks make an idiocracy argument about this, which I understand the optics kind of lend itself.

It is a gigantic mistake to look at these people and think, "Oh, this is idiocracy. It might look that way," and maybe they say stuff that makes it feel that way. But these people are not screwing around their highly skilled operators and their ability to manage these channels of power, I think speaks to that.

“That's why I can not invest in it. For everything in the vaccine.”

Now, the cost of the test is on Shopify.de. The relationship with Shopify is unknown. And with the check-out of the world for the best conversion, that's right. The check-out of the world for the best conversion. The legendary check-out of Shopify is just the shop on your website, a bit to social media,

and everything else. That's a music for your reasons. Videos of the rest of the vendors, with Shopify, can't sit to an average and hit badminton. Start it on Test Nacho to feel no one in Euro Pomona. Of Shopify.de, let's record it. Just on that level, you mentioned sports washing and the skilled operators.

These guys are also, you know, mobbed up with the Middle Eastern dictators that are also doing deals with Trump and his family. You do have the Saudis involved in all this. What is the scale of that kind of involvement of those Middle Eastern regimes? What's happening here?

“It is significant, but it can vary depending on what we're talking about.”

Partly, the Iran war is throwing a huge wrench into all of this. I mean, I'm sure. I don't know if you follow. Do false words at all? I mean, I just do not fighting sports. I can't control basketball.

I mean, golf, I'm not really, but I understand what's happening is live. You know, I watch Rawri and my brother from another mother when he's in a major. I do a little. So you get the idea that there's clearly pressure due to what's happened over there. Okay, so that's just put that aside because that's its own little wild card.

But let's just talk about what we've gotten here. Two different ways to understand that there's the MMA side and then there is the boxing side. And they do differ.

The UFC has been famous about never letting anyone have control of their product.

They would do television deals in most other sports, the network signs, who the commentators are going to be and who's going to cover it. That is not the way it works with UFC. They always have control over all their production, all their broadcasts, all their systems of information, over their journalists, everything, right? I'm in on the outs with them because I do conversations like this.

Okay. So they will give a, they'll bring premier events to some of these places. They are going to go to Saudi Arabia. They haven't announced one yet, but they've been there or other UAE, they've been to Dubai a million times. Because they'll do deals.

Like any of these kind of dictators and these governments who just pay them maximum money, they'll bring there.

But they don't give them control over the product and they don't necessarily bring always their A game to Saudi Arabia.

They'll bring their A game to UAE. But that's the general idea. The boxing side is very, very different. Zufa boxing, which is that TKO boxing for mental, so does the WWE MMA and the boxing vertical. They are being bankrolled by them, essentially.

They are trying to get this legislation passed. I would take away these protections. I would enable them to monopolize. But then who's footing the bill is Saudi Arabia on the other end. And so that promotion and that union is actually quite significant to say nothing of how the rest of the boxing world has.

I mean, you, like, you don't get modern boxing without the Saudis at this point. They have, they have almost, I'm not total controls a strong word. But pretty significant control that industry. See, reference this, you know, a little bit on the outs. You done Rogan before, but it was not with your politics hat on.

It was, it was, it was many hours. So I've not launched. Not at that time, no. I only got into politics because they got into politics. And it just kind of forced my hand, you know?

“And so I'm just wondering, like, what is the reaction like from this?”

I mean, the MMA world obviously is more conservative. And we've been talking about their relationship with Trump, but I have friends who are MMA fans that are magna. You know, it's not everybody in that world. And so I'm just wondering what you think, the kind of average MMA person's reaction is to the degree to which they've been mobbed up together.

And kind of like how that's impacting your relationships. My relationships have suffered greatly as a result of this. You know, in my standing has, I think within MMA has suffered greatly as a result of this.

I mean, obviously having been someone who's been through that. Like, you didn't have to do this. So like, might as you feel compelled to do it, if it was going to suffer in about extent. I don't feel like I really had a choice. I cannot be told what to say.

You know, be friendly, okay, fine. You know, like have some professional decorum, okay, fine. Sure. That's like, you can't talk about theocratic dictators taking over your sport. Like, I'm sorry.

I just can't live that way. I don't know how I'll explain to you. I cannot, I cannot allow myself to be told that. And that is a big one. But that's such a small part of it to be honest with you.

“Just within the industry itself, like the UFC, it's very, very funny, right?”

So the UFC sells itself to the public as like a free speech organization. I have to be very, very clear with you. Nothing could be further from the truth. There's complete and total kabuki theater.

So let me give you just a million examples.

First of all, they control their media class, like no sport on earth. Controls their media class. If you get out of line, brother, they will take your credential period. This is well established, even against very, very big names. They'll do it.

I haven't gone to UFC show in four years. Now, I'm not applied for credential, but I'm not going to waste my time. There's really no point to it. And then more to the point. If you're a UFC fighter, let's say, you know, we don't, we don't control these guys.

What they mean is they'll let them say slurs. But if you, for example, are, you know, your water's been turned off. I've seen this. And then you went a fight and they put a microphone in your face. You say, I really need a bonus because I don't, my water's not turned on.

They'll purposely not do it because they don't want you on the microphone. Broadcasting to the world that you're poor. But if it's a free speech organization and you don't control what guys say, why do you just let them say slurs? And then not let them question the necessity of some of your business practices.

The reality is, I'm not going to be told what to do by them.

And the way in which I have constructed my career is to never be able to position, where I have to ask them for anything because if you ask them for something, well, then they hold it over your head.

“But the reality is, Tim, it's honestly worked out to my benefit.”

Because the media class is so unable to martial any of these criticisms in any kind of way. It has created a gigantic lane for me. Yes, it creates friction within the industry that is true. But there's so many people, including UFC champions, who have messaged me, saying that they're grateful that at least somebody is articulating this into the marketplace.

You know? You know, talk about feeling like you're living my life. You've even got the people whispering to you. I'm with you. Because I was like, no, it's just like the worst shit.

Do you know my old friend? So like, you know, you'll see him out in the event. And you're like, you're really doing a great job. I was like, you think that was like, you know that from what you're saying. I could use a little public health here.

You know what I mean? You know, you're welcome to come on anytime. We could hash that out. That's funny. Do you think that there's any risk of backlash on this?

I mean, I don't know. I can't pervasive is the notion that, you know, that they're silencing to send. They're doing stuff that people find super-versive. It's well known. It's well known.

Yeah, that's not a thing. And you're asking about the average fan. I mean, the way the average fan is also pretty tired of it.

Now that the reality is they're not upset that media has been affected in that particular way.

To the best that I can ask her to hand like, oh, we're really sad about the media class. That's not sure. It's not really a thing. We're very often, but what they are noticing is that the total control that is being exerted has made the the leadership of the company feel distant from the actual concerns.

So recently, for example, the USC had used AI, for example, on one of their ads. And the fans didn't like it because it was not good. It didn't look good. And Dana White's response was quite literally how, this is verbatim. How about this?

Shut the fuck up and watch the fights. That was literally what he said to the fans. Like, can you imagine Roger Gadell saying that? Or even Jerry Jones or whatever the proper description or the comparison would be. It's simply impossible.

So what I would say is, there is dissension in the ranks in realizing that they run this kind of operation. The fans do the hardcore fans anyway. And then you ask him about the right wing sort of valence in their recognition of it. They've changed the fan base. It used to be more mixed.

There was used to be a lot more people like me. Most of the people like me are going, like they don't really exist anymore. However, what I would say is Trump and Timothy is real. Like the way you can tell that, like understand something. They brought him out to UFC 327, which was the last big UFC event.

They brought Trump out. And I had two friends in the arena who I trust. And they were like, you know, they were some booze. There were some cheers. But mostly it was just kind of a little bit quiet.

Understand that that fan base is going to be his alamo.

“If the alamo is treating you like that, you have serious problems you need to start.”

Yeah. Understanding. So I will say that. The Trump love.

And I understand that, but they don't like him that much anymore.

Yeah, it's waning. Okay. So put on your political consultant half from 20 years ago. All right. You know, you did it for two years. If you're the Democrats right now and you're trying to think, okay. Like the popularity is waning with this community.

“Are there any Democratic politicians that like UFC?”

There must be one you would think. And nobody's coming straight to mind. But let's imagine that we identify one. Okay. What do you think they could do to communicate to that audience?

I do think that sometimes people just are looking for folks to show up. You know, I see this all the time. Like Theo von was not ideological five years ago before all the stuff happening. And he got a little mad about COVID stuff and various other things. But it was more about like Trump courting them.

You know, and I guess I just wonder is is there even a path there for some type of Democrat to try to court that audience. There could be. I don't know who it would be right now. You know, on the boxing side, I know Rubin Gallego.

Senator Gallego is a big boxing event. Yeah. You know, a former Marine, I believe as well. So that is a possibility. But on the MMA side, you know, someone from CNN asked me this.

It's like, you know, what can the Dems do? And I'm like, to be honest with you right now. Nothing. Like.

Well, the answer is not nothing.

But what I'm trying to point out is. No one on that side of the political aisle has a relationship to these people. You just need to understand that flat out. I've seen right wing influencers a million times in MMA events. I've just never seen left wing once there.

It just doesn't exist. And so you just got to recognize it. That's a real audience that you want to capture. Like it's just for whatever reason. It's the match.

We're going to get that. You have to start from nothing.

“You have to start from the belief that I have to now bring this from, like,”

from fucking scratch, pardon my language. That's really what it has to be. If you're asking like policy avenues that are usable. I don't want to stereotype. Well, MMA fans is working class.

There would be no problem with that. But I would also not be true that it's a mixture certainly of white collar and blue collar. But I would say that MMA fans have a real keen sense of the unfairness in the market. I think somebody who could get behind Medicare for all somebody who could get a handle on AI Regulation.

Somebody who is doing something that made the average American's life measurably materially noticeably better on these core kind of kitchen table issues. I think it went. And I do want to say when more this is probably going to be an area of disagreement between you and I. But I'll say this.

It's the area. I get the least amount of pushback on for my audience. Israel. They have deep profound skepticism of any politician closely aligned with their interests. And I think anyone perceived to have that is going to have a real hard time

winning over this audience. Yeah. I don't know if that difference is going to be there. Given what's happened with the Iran war.

This is basically when I've been banging the drum on for the past month, which is.

And I'm saying like as a former Bush person, I feel like I have the credibility to say this. Which is like Democrats need to take this opportunity to speak to the type of person you're talking about whether MMA fan or not, you know, somebody who's working class who's culturally more conservative when along with Trump was skepticism of these wars and say, I'm opposed to the scarf launch. And the fact that Israel, like was in our situation room, pushing Trump to get involved in this war.

And as a result, you're going to have pay more at the pump. You're going to pay more at the groceries. Like that's insane. And you mentioned Rubin early. Rubin's been good on this.

I feel like the Democrats need to be more clear. And it is maybe an opportunity to talk to that type of voter. I don't know, listening to you talk about this. It kind of reminds me of NASCAR. Democrats talked about NASCAR 15 years ago.

So it's like there was no, like there was just a cultural difference. Right. Like there weren't a lot of Democratic politicians or influencers who just are, or they wouldn't call me influencers. But media members or whatever who liked to NASCAR could speak about it.

Fluidly would go to the events and enjoy them. But they just started to try. You know, you know, Obama just like invited the NASCAR champions to the White House. Just like he would invite, you know, the winners of the NBA finals to the White House. And he knew more inside jokes that he could tell, you know, Steph Curry when he came through

than he did with whoever it was, Jimmy Johnson or whoever. But that's trying. And to me that's like my main message that Democrats, like even if they are starting from zero. Like, you know, maybe this is an opportunity to try.

“The reason why I say it's important to mention you're starting from zero is like Kamala Harris coming out.”

You know, I, I, I've looked for Kamala over Trump if it was a thing again or whatever. But I don't like Kamala Harris. I want to be very clear about that. And here coming out to be like, Oh, we're going to do stuff for in crypto and we legalization. It's like, this is not going to do. Yeah, this is nothing.

Yeah, this is nothing. You're doing nothing. And so I just want to be that it's important to kind of set the terms to understand what has to happen. And the last thing I'd say on this is, to me, it's okay.

Like they don't all have to cater to every audience.

My only point in the reason why I've kind of focused on this for me is that it had significant and disastrous. Electrical outcomes in this country.

“And I think interrogating how that happened is a useful exercise.”

Anything I didn't ask you about? Do you find interesting what's happening in this world? Um, Dana White at the White House.

Dana White, first of all, being at the White House correspondent's dinner.

An event that is at least in theory designed to honor excellence in journalism is just profoundly funny to me. And then to have this response being like, yeah, that was great.

“It's like that's how you get to a point where you're promoting professional slapping is to be so desensitized to humanity.”

Yeah.

It's to then, you know, we're like, oh, we can get guys to slap each other for $400 or, you know, a match or whatever.

Kind of kind of a very revealing moment to me to be honest. And they, the correspondent's center of the slapping gimmick. Oh, how are all intersects, you know. All right, there's something, I don't know, maybe this is, maybe this is the intersection with my interests and UFC.

“Maybe the slapping was a way to get me in because I don't know in some ways that's not that different from RuPaul's Drag Race, you know.”

Yeah, I mean, but RuPaul's Drag Race is, I mean, I'm not, I've not seen many of them, but it seems a little bit more artistic and, um, And lightened atmosphere, but maybe I'm wrong. No, that's right. Luke Thomas, man, I appreciate you bringing your expertise on this. Let's stay in touch and maybe we can connect again to the summer on the fight, all right.

Anytime. All right, thanks so much to Luke Thomas and Senator John Ossoff, great show. I'm off to Janice Fest, we got nuggets game six tonight, so I'm going to enjoy my Thursday. I hope you do too, and we'll be back Friday with one of our faves. Somebody can carry me if I'm in the dumps if the nuggets season is over.

Very excited. We'll see you back here tomorrow, peace. The board podcast is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper, Associate Producer Ansley Skipper, and with video editing by Katie Lutz, an audio engineering in editing by Jason Brown.