Julia Curlee and Errin Haines: Cowards Are Running This Country

I'm going to ask you to stick around for the second conversation. It's so moving and raging, inspiring.

“But before we get to this, I got a favorite ask. I don't ask favors very often.”

JBL asked for favors in his newsletter, and people always reply. So I'm taking after his model.

I'm asking for a favor right now. On the board takes feet, and if some of you guys are just pot-only, but over on the takes, I told the story of the family of Freddy's and Agariani. They're two Asylese who came from Venezuela a few years ago with their daughter or their daughter's currently seven. Agariani's now a pregnant, another child. They did everything right when they came to the country. They came to the legal Asylese process. They checked in with their ice

appointments. They have legal work, learning English, given the policies of the administration. It was obvious that they were not going to get permanent Asylom. So an Agariani got pregnant. They decided to do exactly what the Trump administration asked. Which was go to their CBP1 app and sign up for self deportation. And they can get on one of the self deportation flights home. They've been many to Venezuela. They signed up for it when they went to check in at the ice

office. They were detained, shackled, and sent to the Dilly internment camp. They've been there seven weeks now. Agariani is not a head access to medical care. Their daughter is not eating. It has been saying horrifying things about how she wants to die and how she just wants to get out of there. All they want to do is go back to Venezuela. All they want to do is exactly what the Trump administration has asked for them. And yet they're still being kidnapped and held in this

internment camp. And so they've written two letters to Katie Britt, the parents explaining their situation. And then the daughter drew her a picture in the hopes. Because she is chair of the subcommittee of appropriations on Homeland Security. And she had said that she cared about

the boy and the blue bunny hat in Minnesota. And so they're just basically writing these letters

begging her. Like, call someone, help us go home. Like help us do what you guys have asked. They're working with the Texas Immigration Law Council. I spoke to our representative from their last night and said that since they sent the letters, they've not heard from Senator Britt. And so I'm asking you the favor, long wind up there. The favor is, if you're driving, do this later. But if you're just sitting at your computer, pause the podcast right now,

contact Senator Britt's office. I'll put this stuff in the show notes, the phone number is 2022245744. There's an email form on her website. Or I'm putting the email address of Perchief of Staff and the head of the subcommittee that oversees the relevant subject matter. Or just tweet at her. Or Twitter is @senKady Britt, SEN, Katy Britt. I put the letter and the drawing on my social media. I'll link to that in the show notes. So you can just send that to her if that's

easier. And I guess I ask you to be nice. The point of this process is to help these people get out knots to vet your spleen and feel good about calling Katy Britt names as much as I would feel good about that as well. So the request is simply you ask these people to self-deport about themselves to port. Stop interning them. Okay. Stop torturing them. Let this pregnant woman get access to medical care. Get the seven-year-olds out of the fucking prison camp. Don't

cuss. Sorry. See, it's going to be hard. So if you can't control yourself like me,

“maybe don't call. Maybe draft the email and make it nice. I just think it's really important that”

they are dealt use with this. And Senator Katy Britt decides that she does a care about this after doing a big New York Times profile about how much she cared about the children and how they're being treated than the Navy. We can try a different approach next week. That's where we're at. I appreciate everybody. It's a personal favor. Please take the time to do this today. As far as today's show, as mentioned, it's segment to this conversation with Julia Curley about her story

in the Atlantic this week. She was a top intelligence official, top top intelligence official who worked in Trump 1.0 who briefed Vice President Pence daily. She was the person charged with

briefing him. And then when Trump came back in a second time, she stayed to help with the transition,

to help keep the country safe. She was the top intelligence official briefing the incoming Trump national security staff. She knew the administration's views about trans people, but she stayed anyway because she cared about the country. And I got a chance to speak to her

“and we focused on her story entirely. And it's unbelievably moving. And I think if anything like me at the”

end of that, you'll just want to hear from more from Julia. And I've got good news. She's also going to go on the motor share show this week where she'll talk about her area of expertise because that we didn't really get into that like. And the intelligence failures of this White House, what it means for Iran and a bunch of other stuff. So I hope you enjoy our conversation and

over this week. So that's what we got for you. First up, it's one of my old buddies from the circus

to talk about some democratic politics in the south. There's also some Florida last night stick around. It's Aaron Hanks. Appreciate you all. Hello and welcome to the board daily. I'm your host Tim Miller. Delighted to welcome back to the show. It's been a minute. She's the editor at large and co-founder of the 19th and independent nonprofit newsroom. She's also the president of the National Association of Black Journalists

and co-host of a new podcast, Long Play that our friends at Crooked Media are putting out. It's about how the Democrats can win in the south. It's Aaron Hanks. What's up, girl? Good to see you. Tim, it's been too long, my friend, but I'm glad that we are back in action together. I need you. We're both aligned about focusing on the south right now. We're both work. We're doing a tour. We're coming your neck of the woods. We're doing a Charlotte Columbia Atlanta.

“That all makes sense. Is this where RSVP? I mean, what am I doing?”

Yeah, exactly. We'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. We'll figure out where to get you out on the road with us. But you've been traveling around on that show, Long Play. So I want to talk about it. Really quick. We have some politics in the last night. I just want to get to. There's

Florida primary in this never ending DSA versus moderate versus establishment war. It's a bit of

the mixed bag last night. Jared Moscow, it's in W Austrian Schulz. Both of them. The establishment beat DSA challengers in their house races. And then in the Senate race, something interesting happened. Florida State grab Angie Nixon. There's a member of the DSA, Black woman. She was a big advocate against Israel's actions in Gaza. And it has been an activist, state rep. She a surprise victory over Alex Vinnman, the resistance one hero, a love Alex, friend of the show. But, you know,

“in a primary, I think it looked like we've seen this other places where Democratic voters”

are interested in what DSA candidates are offering from a policy standpoint. Also, from a fight standpoint, and she is another thing about Angie is that she is a big point person in fighting run to Santa's locally. And Alex had kind of moved to Florida, so I think that played a role as well. But anyway, wondering your thoughts when we saw a San Florida and kind of this bigger picture of what we're seeing in these Democratic primaries? Yeah, I mean, look, Tim, that's pretty

much my takeaway too is that you're seeing these DSA candidates that are kind of bringing in folks who have felt disaffected for whatever reason, who are wanting somebody that they see as a fighter particularly on the issues that they care about, or are not wanting necessarily established candidates that they don't feel have been speaking for them. So, you know, what does it mean to have now, I mean, several of these kinds of candidates on the ballot headed into the general election,

some number of them are going to get through. What does that mean for the future of the Democratic

“Party? I mean, I think that, you know, both parties are really in the midst of their own respective”

recordings about what the direction of the party is going to be, or at least how this faction of the party is going to factor into how the party politics are shaped going forward. And so, then being in these races means that the issues that they care about are going to be in the conversation, right, headed into November and probably beyond that, right, like their lessons for what we are seeing in the successes and the failures of these candidates these across the country and these primaries,

I think that there are lessons for not just these midterm elections, but what is that going to mean for what the agenda is headed into 2021, eight, obviously? I've got a hot tick. Are you ready for it?

Always, I mean, hello, I'm here. Again, love Alex, nothing but respect for his service,

but in the governor's race there, you have another never-trumper, another former Republican David Jolly, as the nominees have Gwen Graham, come moderate Democrat, as his lieutenant governor candidate, they're going against fire and Donald's. And I think it's probably good for Jolly's chances to Angie Nixon one last night. I think that having kind of two never-trumperish people in the ticket to like guys, it's like a little bit of a tough sell to some parts of the Democratic base,

and I think that in some ways this could be a lifting both votes situation where Nixon does help turn out younger voters, you know, voters of color, other that may not might not have been as excited about a Jolly and Vimman on the top of the ticket, and you know, they go out there, they turn out, they vote for the Democrat and the governor's race. Jolly, I think, will probably

from our people, the people that were on the voters that have now been Democratic voters for a while.

“I don't know, I think the David Jolly race is kind of sneaky, I think it's going to be tough for Nixon,”

but we'll see, but I think that that governor is kind of sneaking at might help him a little bit. What other thing, just as you mentioned, the reckoning's happening on both sides last night, on the good news standpoint, Corey Mills is this awful Republican got beat in a primary, so Republican voters act responsibly for once, how about that? And then less encouraging, there was a multiple, like literal, gripper anti-Semite, white nationalist candidates on the ballot

last night, and they got between, like, 10% and 20% in their Republican primary, so they didn't win, but they won the college campuses. College Republicans are not all right. Right, I mean, I think to this primary season has been very illuminating in terms of us, I mean, we're learning obviously a lot about voters too in this moment and kind of where they are, what their issues, what their priorities are, and so yeah, I mean, even in, you know, races where

we are seeing candidates lose what those races can tell us about, who the voters in that race, something, 10%, 20% of voters that are leaning FSU campus? Right, what does that tell us about the electorate that's out there? Yeah, I tell you some bad things about whether a Republican party is going to that sort of another day. I want to talk about your, well, I guess it's kind of related to this, I, you know, certainly Republican party racism is intertwined with this question of Democrats winning

the South, and in some ways, cuts both ways, so I could hurt the Democrats various ways, and otherwise, you know, the collay decision, other things are motivating Democrats in the South. At the biggest picture, you know, with this project, you guys working with long play, I'm wondering on kind of what you're learning, what you're thinking about the Democratic prospects across the South? Well, I mean, look, you know, Tim, you and I are both living in my favorite part

of the country, the part of the country that shaped us, and frankly, the part of the country that

has always shaped American politics for better or for worse, right? I mean, as goes the South,

“so goes the nation, that's what WBD boys said, you know, over a century ago. So like, what does it mean”

for us? Well, except for an apomattox, but anyway, most, most of the time. Listen, including an apomattox, that also shaped where we got the end of the country going forward, right? So like, what does that mean for us to look at the South, to learn from the South, to listen to people in the South about what the issues that they care about, to be seeing up close, the unfinished business of our democracy. I'm talking about race, and how that's playing out across our politics,

to think about the South as a place where we are seeing whether or not like 250 years into this American Democratic experience, like, what does it mean when we are seeing people who are literally contesting their ability to participate in this democracy freely and fairly and equally, on the other side of that Cala decision. So, I mean, obviously, can to predict that coming down at a better time for our show and for us to be in places like Georgia in Texas, in North and South

Carolina, in Mississippi, in Tennessee, like seeing, you know, the choices that lawmakers are making in this part of the country and how that's playing out and particularly animating people to participate and how the South is changing so many people are moving to our part of the country from other places and they're bringing with that new ideas and new energy and saying, you know, look, places like North Carolina, where you have, like, almost 40% of people saying that they are

unafiliated by the way that means independent. I learned that. I'm like, where I've never heard

this term anywhere else in the country, but like 38% of people that are unafiliated, I mean, they don't have a team. That means that they're open. That means, you know, that they're wanting

“change so much of, I think, what is motivating these midterms. But I think the climate that is in our”

country right now is, again, it's feeling like a change election, at least, you know, on some of these down ballot races, people are wanting something, someone different, someone who also is going to address their problems. It's not about, you know, these candidates, the people that we're hearing from were saying, what are these people going to do to help me? Because I'm literally thinking about growing food because I can't, you know, afford groceries. I don't know what the stock price was

out here, but I could tell you how much I paid for gas yesterday. Like, these are the things that people we're hearing directly from people. And I love that, like, that's the thing that I love the most about. This show, that's the thing I love most about my job and being a journalist is getting out and being able to hear directly from people about what their issues are. Not, I mean, love politics, love, you know, seeing candidates out there in action. But like, I don't want to hear

them saying what, you know, articulating what they think these issues are to these voters, like, what do the voters tell us about where they are and how that's influence and how they head to the polls or not? I wonder what you're hearing a particular on Kalei. I mean, in particular,

outraged by, you know, the kind of overturn of these sort of seminal protections that we've had

for decades now in the south. And I was talking to a prominent, like, potential leader for the Democratic Party. So it was off the record. I'm trying to figure out, let's say, that I don't usually do that on the podcast. I don't usually do the anonymous on the podcast, but I've got a, I like to keep it real, the podcast, but I also have to be respectful. And this was their question, right? Like, also, like, to me, living here, right? And I'm curious to you, you know, that out there doing this

reporting, like, is the black clash real? Like, is it just on social media among activists that

“were already, you know, activated, like, what's your sense for kind of the reaction to what?”

No, it's absolutely real. Look, we, when we were on the ground in, in states across the south, unprompted people are bringing up the, the gutting of the voting or attack. And what that was going to, what they felt like that was going to mean for them personally. And also for the future of our politics, look, I mean, I think for black folks, we're seeing over and over again in these primary elections, but also just to move this summer, like, this is animating black people. Like,

when you try to take away black people's voting rights, the rights that that so many people fought and bled and died for in this country, you know, that mean something. That, that is something that is only going to motivate them to show up more to fight harder and to push back and say, you know, no, like, this is not something that's going to happen. We are not going backwards. We're certainly not giving up our rights, even as, you know, there are folks that would seek

to take them away. And so, like you saw, you know, these southern states moving so quickly in the wake of a colleague decision to redraw maps, people coming out to stay capitals to make their voices heard. And by the way, that was an intergenerational, multi-racial coalition in a lot of cases

“at these capitals. And so I think that what that signals to mean is that there are also certainly”

some number of white people in the South who were saying, this is not the South that represents me. This is not who I want to be. This is not what I want. This region of the country that this is not the message that we want to be sending. And so they're standing up and they're speaking out. But I think, look, we got to be real. You talking about speaking the truth. Like, there are also clearly some number of white people who are in the South who are trying to use the

racial and other culture war, you know, playbook to continue to maintain power and to animate our certain number of folks in a way that has been effective in traditionally speaking in our politics. And so, you know, for those who would suggest that there is no racial motivation behind gerrymandering when we are seeing the impact of maps being drawn, the ones that were able to be successfully drawn. I think it is telling that this is the way that folks think that they can maintain power

because they understand that black voters and what they have been able to do on the other side of

the 1965 voting rights act has been powerful. And it is that power that is being contested in our

part of the country. And that is really the lesson that we are watching unfold right now for the rest of us for all the rest of us. What if there are any places or races that are sitting at to you? I mean, like, it is interesting. You think about just reacting to what you are saying like on the positive side and on the negative. North Carolina, for example, as you mentioned,

“I think that there is a lot of potential democratic gains there. Like, Jamie Agar, for example,”

is a guy running in Western North Carolina. They had all those issues with the floods. And I think I'm not happy with North Carolina leadership or Cooper's on well. I'm maybe the negative side. Well, this is like, it's a considerable place. Like Justin Pearson, for example, in Memphis running this great race, very passionate guy. His data center messaging is really resonating, but like the degree of the gerrymandering in Tennessee was so much more extensive that it wasn't some of these

other places that I could all, and it was so racially, basically, and they literally cut the Memphis

black community in thirds and pizza it out to the rest of the state. It's going to be really big challenge for him. So I don't know. Those are just a couple of ones I've cut my eyes at what what about you. Yeah. I mean, look, to your point on both of those race. So the Jamie Agar, you know, that contest, absolutely. The floods are still looming so large over that part of the state. And again, this is where it comes out. I mean, voters are like, you know, we need help.

We are still trying to recover. Who is going to be the person that is going to help us do that. Jamie Agar is somebody. I mean, he literally calls himself a mountain Democrat. He's a farmer. He's somebody that these people know and feel like they can relate to. I think that that is a really interesting race where this is in place, Roe Cooper. I mean, God, somebody who was a lifelong North Carolina politician and is now saying, I feel strongly enough that it's time for me to think

about going to Washington. And has a really, really good shot. North Carolina hasn't sent a Democrat to the U.S. Senate in a generation. But yet, you know, now that's something that seems pretty likely, you know, by all accounts looking down there. But he's somebody that North Linians know, he's somebody that they trust and he's somebody who, you know, has delivered for them in a way that makes them a lot of folks that I heard from feel like, you know, he can get things

I know how that was, right? I mean, down also, obviously down in Georgia, that race is getting a lot of attention, the way that he, you know, is taking on this administration is something that's resonating not just with Democrats, but with Republicans who may be weary, frankly, of a magma agenda and are thinking, they may be open to an awesome candidacy because if he is somebody that they feel like speaks for them right now, like that may be something that they're open to.

So, I mean, his chances are looking really good for him to maintain his Senate seat in Georgia as well. Hey, Americans are carrying over a trillion dollars in credit card debt at rates north of

23%. That's more than $200 billion a year in interest paid mostly by households who are sitting

on the largest pool of untapped home equity in American history. Think about that for a second. You own a home. He's built real equity in it and yet when you need capital for a remodel, for a debt consolidation, for something your household budget didn't plan for, the financial system sends you to a 23% unssecured card instead of letting you borrow against the asset you already out. This is a quiet tax on the American middle class and the big banks aren't racing to fix it.

Even built the first home equity line of credit issued on a visa card. So the same swipe that you discussed you 23% now cost you a fraction because it's secured by the value you have already built. That is hundreds of dollars a month back in your pocket. And if you have been putting off a

remodel, here's a case we're getting on with it a well-scoped renovation. It's one of the few

purchases that can actually pay you back. It makes the house worth more. With even, you can check your offer at no cost with no impact your credit score. There are no hidden fees because your own home, you qualify for a rate the credit card simply cannot offer. Even as a 4.9 star, trust pilot rating from over 8,000 verified customers. If you own a home and you're carrying a high interest balance, you're overpaying for capital, even fixes that go to even.com to discover

your offer, that's AVE and dot com, even stop overpaying for capital. Let's talk about that also

“for a little bit. The thing that's been interesting, I believe Jesse Waters on Fox of all people”

and Eric Erickson, who's a right-wing, radio host and blogger for people who don't know him, both have credited us off with doing the work of actually communicating to Republican business owners and community leaders and being responsive to them and listening to their concerns, even if they're not going to vote for him, and they both said they've heard that anecdotally and that that's been a big difference. Those are some interesting people to kind of vouch for him, I thought.

Yeah, but I think it is a testament to the coalition that he's trying to build in the state, the coalition that he knows he's going to need to win. I mean, look, you look at the last time he was elected. That race went to a runoff. Don't forget, 2020, we were in the midst of a pandemic.

They had to go to a runoff election, right? Yeah, but he had fewer votes in the first round,

right? Like if the heck under the runoff, if had an app in a runoff system, he would have a lot. Right, exactly. So like the idea that this is not going to be a close race again, of course it's

“going to be a close race. Or at least that's what I feel like is going to happen because there is”

so much energy in the state and knowing that Georgia went blue the last time, people are thinking, is Georgia purple? Are we, is Georgia going to be flipping and moving in a different direction? Like, people in the state know that the country is watching to see what happens and so they're pretty animated to really show up. I think in November on both sides. So he knows that he knows he's got to build a coalition. I do think that he's also leaning into, I mean, this is somebody

who was mentored by John Lewis, right? Who grew up in that district and so for him to be thinking about the implications of the Voting Rights Act for Black voters across the state in Georgia, who he knows are pretty angry, frankly, about that decision and also ready to make their voices heard. Like, he knows that that's going to be a galvanizing thing that could potentially you know, propel him to victory here once again. So I mean, that's the coalition. Like, here's

the, also, it's just a little bit awesome. I mean, obviously, his talent, you know, has drawn a lot of

“attention and trust about 28, but I think another big part of it is just running in Georgia and this”

project you're working on. Like, you know, nothing against the DSA king that is running in New York, Vermont, here even Denver. Like, in the city, it's like, at this point, that's still kind of a small part of the coalition. Like, to win elected in these swings, it's the coalition's black voters and kind of these suburban, you know, college educated voters. Like, that's the, that's a entire coalition. But like, that is the, those of, yeah, those are the biggest chunks and like

they're in Georgia. And like, Georgia has a lot in both demographics and he's demonstrating how to win them. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, you know, what lessons does that hold, you know, in other places, places like a North Carolina, for example, you know, South Carolina, certainly, you know,

untamely passing of Lindsey Graham, that Senate race was, is why it opened, you know, in a way that

“it did not feel like when you had, you know, Senator Graham and just how large he loomed over the”

state as well. But I mean, South Carolina is really having a moment, right? First in the nation,

Democratic presidential primary now, like, the idea that we're going to have to focus on South Carolina for a year, headed into the election as opposed to a place like Des Moines, you know, or even New Hampshire, like that feels seismic in terms of how we think about who is an American voter and what does it mean to think about issues like affordability and health care and education through the eyes of black voters, rural voters, you know, and I mean, like, it really feels

game-changing, not just for the Democratic Party, but like what it means for the political imagination of this country. Yeah, worth the point and laugh at Republicans part of the podcast right now. And I had one more, you were taking me to South Carolina, which is good transition work,

but I'd one more awesome thing I had to talk about first. I don't know if you saw, uh,

I don't know how much CNN prime time you're watching these days, but, um, Scott Jennings was, was crying. Uh, and see, and I'm last night, and I would, I would usually play the audio, but I, I'm not gonna play it because like the second hand embarrassment is too great and the blood pressure rise that everybody would take. I've him just pretending to be offended about Osof's line about Natalie Harp. And he's like, oh, what if I started naming John Osof's women's staffers and accusing

them of affairs? And he's like, bro, what are you talking about? Like Donald Trump, like, has bragged about sexual assault. Okay, like we, we bomb the girl's school and Iran and a bunch of girls die. Don't, Scott Jennings didn't get his dandruff over that. You know, like all of the, the instances, like talking about the beginning of this pod, like where we have people, pregnant pregnant women and children in internment camps for no reason. Scott Jennings

was in care about that. He cares that like John Osof might have teased Natalie Harp and Donald Trump in one, one speech and the whole thing is so pathetic. Yeah. Isn't it? Yeah. Has it, but it, it shows like, Osof really can get under these guys. Yeah. That's the thing, right? Like,

“like, like, what he's saying is landing, why is it resonating with you the way that it is?”

What has he has? He has a nerve, this is somebody who has been able, yeah, to, to, to land punches,

with, with them in a way that they don't always know how to respond to. So it's been, and I

think that that's something that, that is really, you know, Democrats are saying that and they're saying, oh, this guy's a fighter. Oh, I like, I like what I'm hearing from this guy. I like that he's willing to take them on and that they really don't seem to have an answer for him. You could say three words about the human printer and get Scott Jennings to cry and have a temper tantrum on TV. I don't, I'm not saying that's like the top quality for a future president, but it people like it. It's nice. It's nice.

It's a nice, but it's a nice cherry on top. As we all went through, the America 250 Anniversary celebrations. One question that we're talking about on this podcast, then people are thinking about was who, who actually is getting to tell the story of American out? Because that story isn't just what Donald Trump wants you to think of as it is just fireworks and flags. It's about whether we tell the truth about what this country is built to be, lately, out of people working

very hard to rewrite that story. A recent federal religious liberty report called for building more bridges between church and state, but here in the reality of a community, we should be clear America rejected kings that rejected divine rule and it created a constitution with no religious test for public office. That was an anti-religion. It was pro freedom. And that freedom includes free thinkers, atheist, agnostics, and the millions of Americans who don't want government

taking sides on religion. The freedom from religion foundation works to keep state and church separate because freedom of conscience means right to believe or not believe. Don't let anyone turn America's story into a theocracy. If that matters to you, go to ffrf.us/religion or text religion to 511511 to join or learn more. Go to ffrf.us/religion or text religion to 511511 now. On South Carolina, they did bait last night. Yeah. Darling Graham, so I'm sage Ralph

Gorman there in a runoff. Yes. And she was asked. Actually, let's just listen. It's too good. Senator, our Taiwan and the South China Sea National Security issues for the United States.

“If so, why? I'm sorry. Could you repeat the question?”

Our Taiwan and the South China Sea National Security issues for the United States and if so, why or how? I'm just going to be honest to you. I'm not on national security that. I'm not that in form of national security. So, but I do support the military. I mean, that's like, maybe South Carolina is the way I switched to one. It's kind of like

Like, are they really going to put this woman in the Senate? I mean, look, what I felt in the room was certainly a lot of empathy and sympathy for darling Graham. Right. Obviously, she's still mourning the loss of her brother. But, you know, we were at actually a Charleston Republican party rally where we heard from most of the Republican who were vying for that sea, right? They were 10 people that were on the ballot for that primary that's now gone into this runoff.

She was not one of the people who was there, right? And so, they didn't really even get a chance. Those voters didn't get a chance to meet her, to get to know her, to get to hear from her on some of the positions, right? That we're now, you know, seeing her on this debate stage where

she, you know, had that answer on questions of national security, right? I mean, first of all,

“they're very concerned about whether they're going to be able to hold this Republican seat, right?”

Like, whether Lindsey Graham's, you know, exit from the stage from the scene, literally, is going to mean that, you know, Democrats are going to get take the seat over or whether they can keep Republicans. So, they're really wanting to get the right person in that seat. They're going to want, they're wanting somebody who is ready for prime time, right? And so, like, you know, moments like that don't, don't serve her well if she's, you know, seeking to convince

people that she is ready. I mean, obviously, Lindsey Graham, she would be big to feel by anybody that stepping into that seat, but certain moments like that, don't go very far to build confidence among the people who she's going to need to get over the hump here in a couple of weeks in this primary runoff. Yeah, and up with another interaction, Ralph Norman is up with another in the race, another pro interaction guy, probably doesn't have a lot of those in their state letter,

he says, oh, in South Carolina, I did also want to shout out Nancy Lecore who's running

in that first district. I don't know if you get down there, but she's a military veteran.

“That's maybe a win-able race. I think the center is going to be tough, but that house race,”

that's another, so maybe surprising place for Democrats could pick it up. Absolutely a great look, Nancy Lecore, you know, somebody who was, you know, three decades in the Navy, right? This woman could not have been more talented, accomplished, and Pete Hexeth, and that defense department of war, you know, shows her of the door, right? I mean, that was devastating for her, and yet now she has taken that, and she is channeling that into into this house race. And look, she's the first Whitman,

we talked to her on this episode of Long Play that is out of South Carolina, and she's clear, look, I am somebody who voted Republican for a long time because of, you know, my military career, but now, you know, I am thinking about and seeing things that are happening that I don't agree with, and so now, you know, I'm putting myself forward in this way. I do think, you know, because South Carolina has such a huge military presence, you know, whether it's folks that are currently

serving, or, you know, so many veterans who have retired in the state, like she is somebody

“that I think can put together a kind of coalition, just based on her lived experience,”

there's going to resonate with a lot of different kinds of people. That could be certainly a race that looked wonderful, you know, to me. That's another way to kind of like the Florida thing when it's like if the Republican Senate candidate is terrible, and there's not a lot of motivation, that kind of helps down ballot, you know, some of the Republicans don't turn out as much just satisfaction over the treatment of veterans, what's happening on the US, Abraham Lincoln,

anyway, that's if you're in that state, and you're looking for a race to help, I think that Nancy McCourt races is one to really focus on. All right, last time we got to do this, I got some negative feedback from the listeners, Aaron, and this is, I like feedback, it's fine, because when ASC went on, meet the press, and the woke one was crazy, comment, to kind of elevate some of things that Francesca Hong had said, we on the next level podcast were kind of bouncing that around,

and you know, I kind of fall down, I'm a moderate, this is classic me always. I kind of

felt that in the middle, I was like, there's some really good woke one stuff, and there's some woke one bad woke one stuff, and kind of weak sort of hash that out, and we had some of the listeners that were like three white folks complaining about woke one. So anyway, you're in the National Association of Black Journalists, I have you here, I had to at least get your take on the woke one as crazy, of course, where are you on how I see it was framed in that?

I mean, look, representation matters, representation matters in journalism in media, so yeah, what does it mean, you know, valid points may have been made, but in any one of the white people who were weighing in on this composition, but I do think that it matters when we're thinking about who, you know, is speaking to these issues and kind of providing context and unpacking some of these things, what does it mean for us to have, you know, a range of voices at the table,

and maybe folks who were even hearing from people around the woke one issue in a way that they're able to inform the conversation maybe in a different way. And well, what was your reaction when you

man, is that undermining some of the things that happened or is that smart politics? I don't know, there's a lot of ways to look at it. You know, because we are in this moment where we're in this kind of anti-diaclamate, where you're seeing people distancing themselves from race, when again, you know, you know, to my mind races the unfinished business of this democracy, and so, you know, we're talking why is she doing this? Like what, and what does that say about what she thinks she needs to do,

right? As she's thinking about her own political prospects in future, like that is the thing that is

“actually more interesting to me. I think the answer is that is that she wants to try to”

shed the baggage without, you know, kind of giving up the mission, right? It's basically, it's just like,

if I can use this, if I can say, hey, what's going as crazy, then it's like, well, anytime you say, what about this one thing, you can be like, well, that was what I was talking about when I said that was crazy. Like, I like this other thing, right? And so, it's a little bit of that, that's the strategic move. I think it's probably a smart strategic move that she's making, but I don't know, I think, but their layers to that, for sure, I can understand why they're my very backlash to it.

But like, why is it baggage? And to your point, the follow-up is what parts of it do you think are crazy? Right? Like, unpacking that is what makes it more interesting to me. If you're right, and I think that's maybe the risk, right? Which is like, because I

you saw some of that after certain people are like, what's specific, you know what I mean?

Like, it's a talking point that you think kind of shield you from like anything that offended people. And it probably works, by the way, if you're running for Senate New York, Blue State Fine, if you're just running for president, a lot of follow-up questions on that,

“so we'll see. We'll try to talk about it. Anything else I missed? Anything else you want to plug?”

Yeah, I mean, listen, obviously, thanks so much for shouting out long-play. Folks can watch it on YouTube. But if you go to long-play series, you can subscribe. I hope you'll check it out. We just wrapped our final episode, which is Mississippi. That'll be out next week. But I mean, yeah, we actually know Mississippi might already be out. God, what is time? I've been on the road. The whole summer. But I mean, yeah, six states would love to hear what folks think about it and

more to come on that. And then also, obviously, you know, in my other date, Jehovah at the 19th, I do write a newsletter. It's called the amendment, and folks can subscribe to that for free, very, very focused on the mid-terms and what lessons we can learn from the next three months that are going to inform clearly the next four years and beyond. So yeah. Mississippi's not out yet. I'm looking forward to it. It's got column. It's an interesting one.

Mississippi and Kansas are two that I'm monitoring in the center races as maybe outside chances, but the interesting candidates and not completely off the map. So we'll look at that. We mentioned that she has pushed out at the military. I've got up next. I really don't

people to stick around for a really amazing conversation with Julia Curley. It was the Trans

CIA official. Yeah. They got fired from the White House and sent a CIA and it's an witch hunt against her horrifying and it's a really moving conversation. So I hope you'll stick around for that. And Erin, thanks so much for your time. We'll do it again soon. Well, let's definitely do it again soon. See you in the south. See you on the road, my friend. I'll see you on the road, bye bye. Everybody stick around for Julia.

All right, and we're back. She's a former analyst at the CIA. She has Vice President Pence's briefer during Trump's first term. She also served as an SC director in the Biden White House and the second Trump White House. She has pushed out of the second Trump administration and had to resign the CIA after a witch hunt targeted her for being transgender. She wrote about her story for the Atlantic this week and an article titled The Wrong Kind of American. It's Julia Curley.

Hey, Julia. Thanks so much for coming under the book, Daily. Tim, thank you so much. Pleasure to be here. It is something. It is quite a story. We've a lot to talk about. You could have been a writer, though. I hope you're working on a book. It's really. It was very moving. I obviously see the stories moving, but as well written that the opening line was so striking at the CIA. They started an office pool on when I'd be fired. It's true. And I kept saying I should have gotten in on it,

“but I didn't. Yeah. So what's funny? So if I recall around that time, I remember watching an episode”

of The Bull Work and one Tim Miller was told in a moment that there was a transgender officer removed at the behest of Laura Lumer. And I detected some disbelief that there could be one at that point. Did there could be a transgender officer? Yeah. One, one, Tim Miller seemed to seem to be surprised. I have to go back and look at my heart. I am disbelieving. I remain disbelieving. I also

goes into my The Bull Work Daily podcast, too. But rage over this. I'm Bill Crystal. And I've talked about this a lot. You know, wherever people are on the variety of different culture more issues with the right of starting over transgenderism. I get this particularly outrageous and gall link the way that this administration is treating people that just wanted to serve their country, that are grownups making choices for themselves in a free country. And we're trying

to serve America doing so honorably, and to just be thrown out like the trash. It's really sickening. And I don't know. I mean, I guess it is one door. As you said, if we're sitting there,

the second term was starting, you write about this, and he is going after transgender people on

his inauguration day, you kind of, how did you process that like wanting to serve the country and knowing that this was possible? Many people have asked me that question. And you know,

“what's important for me is that it was always drilled into us as a baby analyst,”

young briefers officers at the CIA that we served regardless of party. We were nonpartisan civil servants. Our names are not on the product, the coast of the president. We serve regardless of politics, and I firmly believed in that. I had served in the Iraq War, which I disapproved of. I briefed George W. Bush. I worked for Donald Trump in the first term, and I volunteered to stay for the second term. And if you'd ask other people in my world, they would all tell you that

that's just how it is. That's just what we do. And so many people warned us in the NSE in me in particular for obvious reasons that there would be a target painted on our back. But I was

adamant that we serve regardless of party. And I'd always thought it at a privilege to be a part

of the peaceful transfer of power. And so I was determined to stay. And the rest is history and I wrote out of the beast. Yeah. I want to talk about your job. But since since we kind of have ended up here because of my disbelief that you're there in the first place, you're right with this. It's anonymized. It seems like it's burns. And others telling you to leave. And Biden, you right, is the one person that can ask people to stay. And your role on the National Security

role. I always fell down on the side of people should leave. People should get to see what they've voted for. But I've had good faith arguments about that. Lots of people who decide to stay. And

I just kind of wonder now, given everything that's happened, how you kind of feel about

that question about what good public servants should do in the face of this. You know, it's really hard. I feel like on principle, and in my case in particular, I don't regret staying. I regret what happened. For sure, I would much rather still be in the intelligence community doing the work rather than doing podcasts and writing for a living. No offense. I'm asking is an honorable profession that, you know, maybe not the most valuable and the

“list of things in the world. So I do think that it's more important that we have people keeping”

a safe and doing intelligence. Yeah, it depends on the circumstances and the person. And there are officers right now serving at CIA that I've advised, you've got to stay. You've got to be there to hold the line to make sure that the policymakers, even if they don't want to hear it, they're still being given the best information and analysis possible. So that maybe they might make better decisions, we'll see. And that hopefully you'll be here to rebuild when all

of this is over. And so it was really important to me to stay and to model that for my team. I have been put in the leadership position of being the acting senior director for intelligence programs once the political is from the Biden administration left. And they all volunteer to stay and

“end up the entire Biden and I see I believe over 160 officers believed it was their duty to stay on.”

And many of them have suffered severe careers at Bax or in my case, I had to end up leaving the agency. And so it's very hard. You know, the leadership really did try to look out for us. They knew what was coming. But at the end of the day, this is what we do. Let's talk about the job that you did. People can get a, you know, perspective on it. Because on the one hand, the way they were treated, being fired, if you're gender identity,

or whatever. But like, there's something I think is especially galling about doing it, given the importance of the job to the safety of all the Americans that he's going to serve. And, you know,

you write that in your job, basically after Biden's political appointees left, you are the senior

intelligence official in the White House for the incoming Trump administration, like they rely on you.

“After they fired you or not fired you have to redispatch you out of the White House. They”

still make your work for a couple of days because they needed your expertise. So like to explain to us, those of us who don't like have a background in this and tell us it's work like what, what is that job? What was that job that you were doing? Right. So the director for intelligence programs, the senior director is overseeing the White House's access to intelligence for everyone in the executive office of the president. So that goes everything from maintaining the records of who has

what compartments and who's going to receive the P.B. arranging and serving as the interface with

the 15 intelligence agencies who are designed to support the White House and being the White House's

office looking out for the president's interest with the rest of the interagency, and also helping to manage highly sensitive intelligence programs that reflect the president's policies, a covert action, for example, is the president's policies in which the hand of the United States would be hidden. And so the director for intelligence and in my old office would be intimately involved in making sure that policies were being implemented on behalf of the president,

“which will be an important point if we talk about the the coming purge of the NSE,”

where the White House had a very misguided idea that the NSE and the broader intelligence community was the enemy within. When in fact, these are the arms and eyes and ears of the president to make sure there will be done in that the interagency can implement their directions and a lot of the catastrophes that we've blundered into in the last few months have been partly as a result of a completely destroyed national security council, so there's no one coordinating one of the

most complicated organizations on the planet at the U.S. government. Markov is in that job now, like said recently, he's not even focused that much on Iran. He's going to focus on the Cuba mission, which is not really, you know, the person is supposed to be coordinating all of it. I assume there should be sort of red in on everything. And you're in that job when they come in. So you're talking about kind of preparing for any proactive actions, but like

threats, right? Like, you know, in the most serious threats to the country, like I assume, you know, you're having this transition, you're having this hand off. Like these new guys coming in, they've been in there before four years ago, but they're coming back in, things have changed. And I, I presume they're relying on you to brief them on, like, what, what was out there? Yeah, I mean, ever since election day, in which and after which I was put

in the position of the going to be the acting senior director, it was on me to make sure that we were prepared, that we had an action plan, that the officers were ready to, you know, at the moment they got out of the White House compound, they need to be ready to the highest level of programs and, and clearances that our country has because God help us if there's a crisis, and not just one caused by the president himself, but like a real world crisis, this is the new

government of the United States for better or worse. And so on inauguration day, literally minutes, after President Trump took the oath, I am in the West Wing. I'm there when JD bands arrived. I am there when the National Security Advisor arrives in his office, and I am right there to give him every tool he needs to make sure that he can manage the U.S. government in a crisis. And we were well along the way to doing that, and it felt as if the fears that many of us had

had about the incoming administration were not justified. Went on the third day of the administration, they called 160 NSC staffers into a phone call, and they sacked all of them, told them they had 15 minutes to get off the compound. There was no plan to replace them. It would take months to fill

in their positions, and some of them never replaced. There was no turnover. And immediately with

me and a couple other people in my office, we were just thrown into chaos, trying to hold together the intelligence connections between the multi-billion dollar apparatus the United States has around the world to help our president make good decisions. And it was chaos. And it was a completely self-induced crisis, senior directors for many different parts of the world, the incoming

“Trump administration officials couldn t get into important intelligence compartments”

because of this because the support staff that was supposed to help them had all been walked off

compartment, the filing cabinet or the file online. Intelligence is compartmented into different

“so that we can ensure that there is security so that one person doesn t see everything.”

But the director looking at China needs to be able to know what the United States knows about China, but the people that would have read them in who would have the contacts and the ability to reach out to departments and agencies that have information had been fired. And in some of those cases, it felt to me a week later or two to call those people back, the people that they had humiliated and beg them to come back and to work and to help this new administration get off the ground.

And they did. You're a better person than me. It seems like I appreciate there had to be that moment where you went home at night and were like, good luck, mother fuckers. I took I burned the passwords and we ll see how it goes. That was almost every day to be honest. But it was still my job and I had spent 20 years in the intelligence community serving administrations that I didn't agree with that I had voted against many times but it was still my duty to do that. And it's what

I expected to the officers who were serving with me. And you know, it's just what the intelligence community is designed and should do, which is part of what is being destroyed right now as it's being politicized and undermined by walking out some of our most experienced and respected officers and what will be a generational process of trying to replace them. I wish it was a two-way street.

“But here we are. I want to turn by the call a little bit. I think the part of your”

call on the Atlantic that people were most taken by. And that was your time with Black Pets.

So previous to this period of the virus administration, the first Trump administration,

you were the person that was providing the daily brief to the vice president. Talk about that, like getting that role any sort of conflict that you had about that given my preferences. Why would you ask that Tim? Yeah. So I had, you know, becoming a PDB briefer and serving a president and briefing on Air Force One. I mean, that's the dream that that like everyone who goes into the intelligence community be an analyst really imagines. I

and I had over the course of my career gotten to brief George W. Bush at one point and I had

“been in the White House so many times. I couldn't remember. But they get to be a PDB briefer”

to wake up at 11 p.m. and be in the office at midnight so that I could be at the White House before dawn and check in with the sit room and be there to help the highest level policymakers in our government make better decisions by providing them this enormous amount of information and distilling it down to what they needed to know. And it was a wonderful experience and so I had initially been assigned to the Deputy National Security Advisor when one day my boss comes

into my office saying Julia you're doing a great job. What would you think about briefing the vice president and it occurred to me that, you know, this vice president. And so I agreed and without thinking too hard I'm afraid it was a bit difficult to then to explain to my wife what I was about to do. But then just a few days later I'm standing in the drive way at the Naval Observatory and there he is Mike Pence with his White Helmet Air and you know he says Julia tell me

something I don't know and we were off and it was just me and Mike Pence and so I served him for over a year and then I repeatedly after my time with him would come back to fill in for for briefers when they would would get sick or they go on on leave and I kept doing that

through to the end of the first administration so I was about I was in the the Trump White House

about two years all said. You wrote this when my tour finally ended, Pennsylvania my family to the White House in his office he took my mother's hand and smiled he must be very proud of your daughter. A friend of mine texted me this and I was like why am I crying, reading about my friend. It's kind of how I felt as well reading it. I hit that point, you know, there with your wife and I don't know what was what was that like. It was a profound moment for me. I mean obviously

you know I'm not I wasn't ignorant of his public positions and I just I will say I don't know what's in his heart and what his sort of his deepest beliefs are. I just knew that

dignity and respect and had been an an amazing PDB customer really really effective and giving me

“that experience that I'd always wanted and here he was with my mom who had an enormously”

difficult time with my transition just many years before and Mike Pence is affirming my gender identity and I thought we made it you know and what more could I possibly ask for and it was really felt like no matter what setbacks we could suffer at least for me I felt like we were there and these two dreams that I'd had since I was a kid of being a CIA officer and this unexplainable dream of being a woman could coexist in the same universe. The affirming thing I guess

tell me if I'm translating this right but it seems like if your mother is having trouble with this that's like if even Mike fucking Pence can't say you got to be proud of your daughter then anybody can then I'm accepted everywhere and it's kind of me how I felt about when my mother had a priest that was you know had come around on my on my gay sexuality right and my is that was that kind of what you meant yeah yeah I mean you know and I had also briefed virtually every senior

member of the the Trump cabinet including president Trump on Air Force One and it was never a

problem and not only that but but the vice president had asked me to extend my tour so if there had ever been an issue they could have easily had me just fade away without any problems

“but no they they wanted me to serve and I did and so I think that provide you the context where”

going into the second term it was the pdb-brafer that briefed Mike Pence it's gonna be fine and of course I was I was terribly wrong about that and so you wrote him on the last day this letter that you write in the article then includes I'm a transgender CIA officer wife and a mother anything's possible in America he said I'm glad I passed the test I'm wondering like what was what was he like in that moment was he you know it's hard to tell

just based on the on paper tax because he dismissive was it was it was it for functory did it mean something to him did he know the whole time do you think so I mean it's staff new and and I had talked about it with this chief of staff both chiefs of staff that it served under him it was

not a secret but but we never talked about it you know I'm I'm that's not my day job

“I'm not a professional trans person um I was there to support him and it was important to me that”

I'm not ever let it get in the way of the briefing and so what I had done was the day before my second last day I gave him a letter when we're done so that he could read it I felt like this thing that had laid on the side this elephant in the room the whole time I needed to do something to communicate how I felt and I wanted to not do it in a way that it would interfere and so he'd taken it home and in the next day he he brought it up and said he thank me for the

letter and that he really appreciated my service and we shook hands and he said you know I what I told him in that moment was that there were many it's CIA for for perfectly obvious reasons that thought that a person like me he couldn't work for a person like him and he said well I'm glad I passed the test he brought it up right oh I I had given them the letter yeah the next day he brought he didn't have to do that yes of course that's that was the whole point

yeah it makes you wonder like makes you more mad about what happened in the second term I guess it's really my reaction to it because it's like if Mike again if Mike fucking fence was like a saw value and a lot of senses that begin with that construction if Mike fucking fence saw value in your service acknowledged it appreciated it you continued on you come back in the second term and like these guys then just decide to like react to this witch hunt and smear and dismiss you

like to me it makes it even more galling and it's right I would step back a little bit because I don't think it's just like a witch hunt after inauguration they there really was an asteroid coming toward us and you know I had been in the sit room I had been in the Biden administration watching TV it went one point at some ungodly hour of the evening and there were these commercials that would come on during the campaign and the Trump administration threw 200 million dollars at a

smear campaign to demonize people like me and to tar hit their opponent by association and so we you know it I could see it coming but but at some level I didn't believe that it would really be as terrible as it was I thought I could stay in right it out but I think the point that

that you you're serving you're doing your sister do my point is like Mike Pence was supposedly

the Christian idea log and you served him honorably and these guys come in JD Vance and Marco Rubio and they can you kick you out Susie one else Donald Trump JD Vance Marco Rubio over nothing

“overnight your work but just over who you are and it's and sick but it's important to say though”

that while it was a secret or at least not public they were perfectly fine with it and that is that that is the reason why I felt so passionately that I had to write when I came back that those those three days after I was fired trying to help do the turnover and finish an important budget item and I had been told to be discreet what became utterly clear to me by the end of those those three days was that the White House needed me and they wanted my help but they

didn't want anyone to know and that told me just this kind of animus is a choice it is absolutely a choice and they're making it based on some political calculation I've talked about in the piece I've wrote written PDBs about this how you demonize a small group of people you know find an enemy within and that helps you ram through your your extremist agenda it's happened in Iran and Russia and Hungary and I wrote PDBs about this and I had it

happened to me while I'm sitting in the White House yeah I'm kind of trying to I'm circling like

“trying to figure out the like why exactly does it so galling and I think that that's what it is right”

it's sort of like these guys it's so cowardly you know it'd be one thing if they were Bible thumpers and they came in and this was just there well you know they are ideological hardliners on gender ideology and sexuality and whatever like that's not what this was like that was my fence and my fence founded in his heart to have some humanity for a person whatever you think about his public views which I still disagree with like he found it out and and these guys are like

no we're gonna make an example of you throw you out but by the way we still need your help can you help us and see create a little bit for a couple of days I mean it's unbelievably cowardly under half of the people in charge of this administration I had really tried to remove any possible excuse for what ended up happening happening you know I started using the bathroom across the street from the compound so that I didn't technically violate anyone's executive order

I never asked anyone to affirm my you know my gender I just tried to do the work

and it still wasn't enough because and this is why I labeled the piece the way I did I just was simply the wrong kind of American to continue working and that hurt because it's it's such a bedrock principle for people to dedicate themselves to public service and just Americans right that we can rise as far as our talents can take us and and this was a clear sign that now actually some people we just don't want their kind here and I got to experience it at the White House.

Here's a draft Dodger so he didn't even serve the president if I you get to the end of to the what you said about your dad said what I'll let you say what was the advice that your dad gave you when you're going up to the lie oh yeah so my grandfather was from an immigrant family from Eastern Europe and like many immigrant families that you give that you give the kids the the

“talk which is you know this country took us in and you owe it we owe it everything and you need to”

work hard for your country don't complain and the country will take care of you and I took that as an

article of faith and I got to live it where you know I transitioned at CIA became the first officer

to successfully transition and stay and the country took care of me you know I got to be Mike Pence's Petit Breaver in the country took care of me and you know I really thought that that fundamental principle would hold and it just it's just as failed and so we're in a dangerous time now and I couldn't continue to serve if it meant I couldn't tell my story you know I've lived in this parallel universe for the last several of six years where you know Mike Pence had a gay trans PB Breaver

and no one cared and I and I kept it to myself and well me and several hundred other CIA officers all who knew this you know and that was just the deal that was the bargain we kept politics away from the work have you heard from him? Mike Pence? No no the last time I met which I write about in the piece

briefers back for a farewell as so I was just me and a few other people that had worked for him over the course of the term and we're all gathering around describing to him what this experience had meant for us you know we're just a few feet from the oval office down down the hall and when it got to me and it was just a week after January 6 I'm tearing up and I said you know sir what you did

last week I've never been more proud to have served you you know he had done his duty to the country

and certified the election of his opponent you know which is a fast vastly greater thing than me you know briefing him but it felt like we hit all honored our oats you know it was a very important moment to me and he said that you know thank you that means a lot to me. So two other strings in the article I wanted to ask you about just curiosity was peaked. So loomer comes for you right like the first hundred sixty or five hundred and then loomer is posting and saying oh there's a transgender whatever

at the CIA and the net and then SC they should be fired and they should be kicked out.

“Do you ever figure out how she knew I mean you were an intelligence officer?”

Good point. I was failed another failure of mine.

I'm not. No I'm not. No I I never have. What what here's what I know right

loomer doesn't sit in the situation room. She doesn't get invited into the Oval Office. She doesn't just sneak on to the compound and get to the president with a list of names of people to fire. I know that the other people that were sacked in the scent sent away after that that day was like April 2nd of twenty twenty twenty twenty five almost all of them are like rock rib republicans people with impeccable credentials but apparently not extremist enough for the administration

so someone someone you can't just walk on to the compound by yourself so someone decided that whether it was me or the others that calling a right wing provocateur influence on the internet was the right way to get rid of us and and that's that was really hurtful in in in the pure sense that like that's just not who we are as as a country and I just couldn't believe that this was happening and it was another sign that we crossed into some some really dangerous new

“place. Yeah I mean it's not who we were I think to your back to your grandfather's point”

I just think things have changed unfortunately in this administration that's going to be worked to change it back the other thing that you said is interesting that's well I guess probably not to be helpful anymore I'm sorry I was trying to end an helpful note but you'd written anonymously a couple years ago about your journey being a CA officer and you're something interesting about how you thought that your transition helped you and made you a better officer

and I wanted to hear more about that. I think in the number of ways I mean for one thing this

enormous weight this this it like a cloud hanging over me was finally lifted

I often describe it like you know if you discover you need glasses for the first time and you're like what did why did no one tell me about this you know the world is filled with color and you know crisp and wonderful and so it had been this this enormous drag on me that had gotten worse and worse and worse and once it was lifted my life just became this new great and wonderful thing just getting to be myself and and we you know that was the first and foremost

thing but you know there were other experiences with it you know being an immigrant across the gender divide you learn a few things about the workplace and you you start getting targeted on your your you know algorithm with yogurt ads and fertility treatments and things like that but it you know I learned a lot about how the other 50% of the population lives and it was

“for an analyst it was quite eye-opening and I think it helped me examine a lot of my assumptions”

that that made me a better analyst yeah this cool knowing you mentioned where it's like younger people would come up to you and talk about how that essay you'd written suit it honestly it kind of like inspired them to go into this kind of work like not knowing that they were talking to the author yeah right so you get you referencing the piece I wrote after my transition CIA and our in our effort to recruit and to show that diversity would would strengthen the agency

asked me to do a interviews and to do in pseudonym so I could keep serving as CIA officer and I decided to write these pieces in the Atlantic where I talked about my journey because we

serve your country and have this great wonderful life and one of the reasons why it was so

“important for me to write this now was that these pieces were still out there and several people”

had had come to me who would join CIA subsequent to those to those pieces saying that they had joined because of them and you know what a couple of those people were fired by this administration and that betrayal you know I feel deeply and I wanted the chance to tell you their story and correct the record and you know when I had transitioned I had had been given enormous assistance by older trans people that that showed me the path toward finding myself and and helped me in

my darkest days and but their price that they had asked me you know in return was to pay it forward

“that I would not disappear which many trans people do it it's perfectly understandable you're trying”

to just be normal and they told me I I couldn't do that and so part of that was every year I would come out with with a you know you're not alone letter to my colleagues I wrote those pieces in 2017 so the people would know where they're here and now with this piece like I don't I don't

know how much more out I could possibly be but the bottom line is is that someone like me was

able to have a wonderful and great life and have a family and work in the White House twice and so whatever arguments there are about our unfitness for positions of honor and are just wrong

“and I would be damned if another generation would grow up like I did and not know that someone”

like them could have a life like the one I've lived and so I was very happy to get to to do that and set the record straight me too how's your family how's your life it's okay it's not gonna be hard yeah it's been very hard it's a scary time for all of us you know I wrote in the piece that you know the the White House and it's online mob could come for me and I know that's I know that's possible but it is possible they're all a bunch of cowards they were

cowards for firing you and they're gonna be cowards when they come at you from behind your keyboard so on you know there's an unbelievable amount of people are just supporting you as well I heard from so many people about your piece who reached out to me apropos not knowing we're gonna be talking or anything and so it is really resonated and there's anything that you are the family need from a support standpoint you know or to come okay I appreciate it thank you so I made these fucking people so

much too but you have no idea how much I hate them and I really admire the grace and restraint that you have shown because let me tell you I guess I'll handle the hate fire for you in the meantime all right thank you okay Julia Curley appreciate you so much for taking the time to come to talk to us and stay in touch okay it's my pleasure the matrius is Mary Ann now it's more confident to live his plan now but the family and disbelief this time convince themselves seeing live and discreet

he's fine they said they never seen it then but I see the barbie dogs played off reflection of

Venus he built the wall so tall you can climb over he didn't laugh his heart when the kids start joking I had to be very mindful of my good cousin I knew exactly who he was but I still loved him the bull work daily is brought to you thanks to the work of lead producer Katie Cooper associate producer Ansley skipper and with video editing by Dante de Chico and audio engineering and editing by Jason Brett