Dating on the Spectrum

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New York Times Games subscribers get full access to all our games and features. Subscribe now at nytimes.com/games for a special offer. From the New York Times, I'm Rachel Abrams and this is the Daily On Sunday. Today, the reality show love on the spectrum which follows autistic adults as they search for love, has just released its fourth season.

The show has largely attracted praise for its realistic, its sensitive portrayals of neurodiverse people and it's become one of the most popular and unlikely hits on Netflix. Today, an appeal, a contributing writer for the Times, talked with the creator and the cast of Love On The Spectrum about the show's origin story, the nuanced criticism, and why it has resonated with so many people.

It's Sunday, April 19th. An appeal, welcome to the Daily. Thank you so much for having me. You are a culture writer, but you are also a reality TV expert, which I like to think of myself as a reality TV expert just based on how much I watch. But you have actually spent a lot of time reporting and writing extensively about reality TV.

So just to start the conversation, I wonder if you could for people who have not seen this show, tell us a brief overview of the premise of love on the spectrum. So love on the spectrum follows mostly young people who are on the autism spectrum.

While they learn to date, often for the first time, the show will set them up.

They'll match make them, sometimes the follow them to speed dating events or things like that. It's incredibly popular, it's one of the biggest shows on Netflix, and it's so unique to have a show that is actually socially responsible. But it's also scratching the edge that people have to watch reality dating series. This show is noteworthy for approximately 1 million reasons, but not the least of which is that reality TV is a genre of television that is arguably the most exploitative. The premise of so many shows is that people debate themselves for your amusement.

“And this show has a potential to be an absolute train wreck of a show, right?”

Like this is walking such an ethical tight rope. And what you're saying is that not only does it succeed in walking that tight rope, but it is a commercial success because it is heartwarming because it makes people feel good with other dating series. I think that even if you were to say, "Oh, I'm watching you for the romance, I want people to get together." The moments that are really sticky are often the most dramatic, and as you said, exploitative.

And what people say is, "Oh, the people who go on those shows signed up for it." So whatever happens to them, they deserve it. This I think people genuinely want the best for the people on the show, and I think that the people who are making the show want the best for the people who are on the show.

And that's not always the case when you're producing reality television.

Okay, so let's talk about how the show came to exist. What is its origin story, if you will? So love in this picture wouldn't exist at all if it weren't for one person. His story, his skills, his very unusual path to making love on the spectrum are as unlikely as the show itself becoming the hit that it is. I can. Hi.

How's it going? Good, how are you? Doing well, thank you. So his name is Kiano Cleary. He's an Australian documentary, and he got his start in the industry working on huge blockbuster films.

My first job in film was, "Oh, there might be Dick Warren, or do you want me to talk about the capturing one?"

One of his first jobs was as an assistant cat Wrangler working on the babe sequel.

“We had, I think eight or nine of us working in the cat department, and we had 110 cats.”

So it was a lot to do. And that's just a cat Wrangler, an assistant cat Wrangler. You got to work your way up in the car wrangling business. I mean, I just kept then getting roles on big films as, you know, a production runner or a director's system. Oh, quite sort of, I guess, the word is "menu," right?

Like, non-creative roles on big films. He worked on the Matrix, he worked on Seriana, he was on Notting Hill. At that point, I wanted to, I thought I wanted to make films feature films, you know. At that point in his life, he was really figuring out what he wanted to do in the industry, which relied a lot upon what he would actually be good at.

And if you want to make a feature, you need to write a script.

“Whenever I try and start it, I would just hate myself so much.”

I had to stop, which is kind of sad, but that's the kind of truth of it. And he didn't really figure that out until he got this unexpected role while working on Buzz Lerman's film Australia. I was Buzz Lerman's driver, so again, I'm not doing anything creative, but, you know, I'm sort of at the hub of things, you know, buzz.

He had a lot of downtime working on the movie, and he wound up picking up a spare video camera, and he just started shooting behind the scenes footage, which Buzz saw and loved. But Buzz used to say to me, "It's like you're invisible."

Which I thought was actually a really nice thing, and he would meant it as a compliment that, you know, I was able to get really close in on, you know, him working with the actors on these sets with a camera filming, and kind of people wouldn't really even notice me.

And so I was able to capture this really great intimate footage. So they wound up cutting it together, and added her on the film, helped him. And then Keyon used that footage to make a big career pivot into reality television. [ Music ]

So he was working on shows like dancing with the stars, Australia.

He was on Married at First Site, Australia.

“And then there was one show that wound up being incredibly important”

in his career path, Farmer once a wife. [ Music ] So I was working on, I don't know what season it was, a Farmer whatsoever. And we had our farmer, and we had three ladies who liked him. >> So one of the women who was competing for the love of a farmer started

acting strangely, and Keyon was producing her, and he started to see that she wasn't making any sense. >> I actually think she was actually becoming psychotic. >> Like actually, she was speaking and like not being nonsensical. >> Yes. >> So as soon as that became clear, it was, you know,

let's work this out, let's look after her mental health. Obviously we weren't filming at that point with her. >> And someone working in post production was watching all the footage. Saw how Keyon was dealing with her, and that he immediately recognized that she shouldn't be filming, so, and then got her out of there.

>> She sold away, I was talking to this young lady as, you know, it seemed like she wasn't doing so great. >> And this producer recommended Keyon to direct this project that offered unprecedented access into a locked psychiatric ward. >> I'm sorry, what I know.

>> Liverpool is one of the biggest and busiest hospitals in the country. >> I'm exhausted. >> It's called changing minds. It was bruised by the Australian broadcasting corporation. >> Over the next three nights, this series will take us inside.

>> Previously, I'd directed like segments or, you know, a particular cast member for a show, but this was like one documentary series three parts directing the whole thing. So this was my first kind of real directing assignment in a sense. So it was a big deal for me.

>> When Keyon gets into this role, he's never directed anything

before like as a lead director. And it's also something with a huge social responsibility. >> There were people in psychosis, there were people with extreme depression. I mean, you know, I was interviewing someone several hours after they've attempted to take their own life in the emergency department.

I mean, it was quite actually some really quite heavy stuff, you know.

“>> Okay, I mean, I think it's probably pretty obvious,”

but just to state the obvious, working on reality television does not just not to me seem like somebody that prepares you to just start filming in a psychiatric ward. >> I don't think anything could prepare you to start filming in the psychiatric ward, but it uniquely worked with Keyon's skill set

because he's the kind of field producer who is not trying to be directive, which is very unusual and field producing. What do you mean by that? >> When I was reporting enter the villa, somebody used to be a field producer said, we are the manipulators.

Those are the people who are talking to the cast members. They're trying to get information from them. They're encouraging them to act. And Keyon is being invisible, you know. He's using his superpower.

>> The issue of consent, though, I can imagine that that was probably one of the biggest, thornyest issues in everything he had to navigate on that show. How did he approach that? It was handled very sensitively.

>> You would often see people come into the ward really unwell and then, hopefully, leaving at the end, going back to their families and being well again. And so the consent process involved people double triple consenting.

>> He would try and get consent before, but often people were in psychosis. He would talk to their family members if they had them.

But they didn't get to see the footage.

So they had to trust Keyon to put themselves out there when they're like really, really unwell to the point where they had been hospitalized. >> And so we lost a lot of stories. People, like actually, I don't want you using that footage of me

telling you, I was a Vladimir Putin or that I was Jesus Christ. So it was a lot of... >> And what was the argument for why they should allow themselves to be exposed in this way? Because people don't understand if they don't see.

Keyon believed that it was really important for the public to see people who society might believe don't have a future. But see them when they do get treatment and when they are properly cared for that they can get better. >> That sounds like something that would have made quite an impression

on a person in his position.

“But how does he get from there to love on the spectrum?”

>> Yeah, so there was one more step in between changing minds and love on the spectrum. >> How many jobs would you say you've applied for? >> Oh, we're in the hundreds of this points. >> He executive produced this show called Employable Me,

with the same team who did changing minds. It was a documentary series about people with disabilities who were looking for meaningful employment. >> I'm Rowan. I'm 21, and I have autism.

>> Tell me, why do you want a job, Rowan? >> And many of the people who Keyon wound up working with on Employable Me had autism spectrum disorder. >> The series we're making was about people looking for a job. But we did hear very often about people's wanting

to decide and find love. And there wasn't any support in that area.

“>> And he just loved how honest they were,”

how unfiltered they could be, how they might say things that so many of us are thinking or feeling.

>> I'd always wanted to make a dating show that felt really

real and kind of just truthful and honest. And didn't necessarily have all the bells and whistles of a competition. >> And so Keyon wanted to make an honest, unfiltered dating show. >> And so that was, I guess, the kernel of the idea was,

hey, there's this population of people who are wanting love. Maybe this would make for a great doc series, telling these stories and kind of helping people find each other. And so they pitched it to the Australian broadcasting corporation and they green with it.

So now that it's green lit, the big question is, how does Keyon make this show? >> I have the exact same question, and we will talk about that after the break. [ Music ]

“>> I'm Anna Martin, the host of the modern love podcast.”

In every episode, we peek into an intimate corner of someone's life and learn about what love means to them. >> 35 years with another person.

I've never spent that much time with anyone else.

>> So we both kind of said, I love you pretty fast. >> As long as they keep the dance up, I'll keep the dance up. >> And she felt the same way, an instant connection. >> It's a window into how real people navigate all kinds of love. I mean romantic, family, friendship, dog-based.

There are stories of life-changing moments. Small joys, big revelations. >> My advice is that it's okay if it's hard. >> A lot of the way that you manifest your love for your children is through cooking.

>> And I remember just looking at them in awe almost like, wow, you know so much that you couldn't even dream of knowing about my brother. >> You can listen to modern love wherever you get your podcasts. >> Okay, so Anna, after he gets the green light,

he obviously has to figure out actually go make the show. Tell us about the process. So he started casting the same way that he was casting employable meat. >> We started to put the word out with all that kind of various groups and all that we had already worked with.

And there was definitely hesitation. >> But unlike employable meat, which had a lot of buy-in from the beginning, there were some skepticism because it's a reality dating series. >> I guess it's understandable in that some shows out there that are in the reality dating space.

Not necessarily the most positive people who are part of those shows can sometimes come across badly. And I guess there was skepticism of how we were going to tell the stories. >> They had the same questions that anybody would have, is this going to be exploitative, is this going to be for neuro-typical

people to gawk at people with autism. But he and Nick explained to them, "No, we want this to be for our diverse audience. We want to show the diversity of the autism spectrum.

And then after he got the buy-in from the autism groups, of course he had to get the buy-in from the participants' families.

And basically it just came down to people trusted key-in

to be the one to tell the story. >> Which strikes me as really kind of a feat, because just to put it bluntly, how on earth does this man who has worked on shows like dancing with the stars convince people

that he is going to make what the only reality dating show that doesn't actually exploit people? >> Well, what's interesting is that I think when you talk to key-in, just see how gentle he is and how much he acknowledges

that he doesn't know everything,

“which I think is how they kind of sell people to get on these shows.”

But he talks about how he wants to go on the journey with these people. He wants to tell their individual stories. And those stories are about finding love, but it's also about familiar love. It's also about putting yourself out there and trying new things.

And the joy of kind of working through discomfort and learning something new.

>> He did basically the classic journalistic thing

of convincing somebody earnestly that you really want to tell their story. You are not trying to use them or exploit them or humiliate them. >> Yeah. Is there an example that really illustrates this

that you could give us? >> So after two seasons in Australia, Netflix, which had aired the Australian version on the platform, Commission in American version. And so one of the first people who key-in considered casting

was Abby, who became one of the most beloved cast members on the show, and who I actually traveled to LA to speak with in February. >> So I'm recording, is that all right? >> Key and first start talking to Abby back in 2020 after seeing her perform an arts event for people with autism.

“>> Do you remember that you were talking and he was on Zoom”

with another lady? We were sitting in the desk. >> What are I for? >> He was asking if you wanted to date and have a boyfriend. >> And he started talking to her mom about whether she wanted Abby

to go on the show because her mom had to consent for Abby. >> Abby can't advocate for these kinds of things really. I mean, she can tell me yes to knowing that the nuances or the deeper meanings are sometimes hard for her to process or express.

>> She had already seen love in the spectrum Australia. She thought it was a really positive, wonderful show. >> I was concerned and I said to Key on, I love your show, but I don't think Abby's right for it. >> But Abby has language processing issues and she was like,

she's not going to be verbal in the same way that the really wonderful love in the spectrum Australia cast members had. >> Key on said to me, we want more diversity of the spectrum of the spectrum and he said we want to tell her story. And that's when I felt safe enough for her to jump in.

>> And so Key and said no, we want to show Abby and Abby story. And so the combination of Abby potentially finding love and people understanding her daughter, which is really all she wanted. And the trust in Key and just made her say yes.

“>> So what happened after she said yes, what was the next step?”

>> Next step was Key and going to Los Angeles to film with Abby and Christine.

>> And the first day just didn't go well.

>> Abby, can I tell the story about being in your bedroom when we were shooting or do you want to tell it? >> We can tell it together. >> So Abby was sitting there. It's a sit down interview.

They only do one with each cast member every season. >> First day of shooting. >> First day of shooting. >> I was in my bedroom in my room when that was completely zone out because-- >> And Abby just didn't want to do it.

She was yawning. She was asking if she could leave, which of course she was free to. >> They've been shooting for 60 seconds. And I obviously I wasn't in the room but I could hear her. And I started to cry in the other room and I thought,

what have I done for her to put her in a situation where she can't verbalize. >> Christine is in the other room listening crying thinking, what did I get my daughter into? Why did I put her into a situation where she's not able to communicate?

And so she thought that this was over. >> We later they called back and said we want to come back and film Abby just at home walking around doing your thing, we're just going to follow her. And I was kind of like seriously.

>> But the next day, King came back and he was like, Abby just go do whatever you would normally be doing. So he and then this cinematographer just hung back. And they just observed. >> Abby was her true self.

Abby was doing impressions of Bruce the shark from Finding Nemo. Because he has an Australian accent. >> Like he on. And he answered, are you making fun of me in my accent?

>> And what's interesting is not just that it worked for the show. But that Abby and Christine learned that Abby is much better at talking and communicating when she's in movement.

>> Was that the first time you learned that?

Or was that something you knew from before? And then you just, no, that's the first time I knew. >> Oh wow. >> It really was. It was one of those moments, a cathartic moment of like,

how did I, her primary caregiver missed that. >> Yeah. >> And the show taught me that. >> So clearly, it sounds like he and is helping. Some of these people who have talked to you feel seen.

He's making them feel comfortable. He's reassuring their families. But I'm sure there's also this question of like, what happens in post production, right? Like what happens to the footage and what happens if there is material

that, for example, the participants might feel uncomfortable having shown on television, right? They don't have final cut, right? They can't demand that stuff be exercised. So how is that handled?

>> Well, the same way that people in changing minds didn't get to see the footage before it aired. Nobody on the show gets to see the show before it premieres on Netflix. And so it's a process that starts while they're actually filming. When Keynes checking in, when Keynes making sure they're comfortable,

when Keynes making sure that they're okay. Even before they get there, they're making sure that any accommodations that people need are happening. So, for example, at the same peak here, Madison is waiting for her date to arrive.

A cast member named Madison went out on her first date with someone named Brandon.

>> I'm Madison, nice to meet you. >> Nice to meet you too. >> And Brandon is sensitive to noise, so they cleared out half the restaurant, so nothing would trigger him. >> Okay, distracted because of his few noises in the background.

>> Brandon, it's a bit noisy that we expected.

“Let us know if you want to move outside, okay?”

>> Okay. >> But then there was a baby crying on the other side of the restaurant, so far away, and he just folded forward onto the table. He was so uncomfortable. He just couldn't continue the conversation with Madison.

>> Just afraid the noise may probably grow, and then something unexpected might happen, and I risk scared. >> Keynes kept checking in with him and asking, "Do you want to break? Do you want to stop?"

They're always asking them if they want to stop filming,

and eventually he did. And it's something that I've heard from nerd typical viewers, "Oh my gosh, like that made me so uncomfortable, "that was exploitative to show him in that moment." But it was a subject of a big debate among the creative team.

They were deciding, "Should we show this moment? "Is it too much? "Is it putting Brandon in a position where we're showing him "like not in a good light?" And then they realized, "Okay, people might understand

"that people with autism have sensitivity to sound, "but you don't really get what that means. "If you see it, then you understand it." And so they talked to Brandon and his mother. They described the scene to him, obviously he had experienced it.

And they said, "Yeah, use it." And how did they feel after watching it? Did you talk to them about that? >> We emailed. And Brandon and his mother, when they saw the footage,

were really happy with it. They were really proud of Brandon. He'd gone through something uncomfortable and difficult, and he'd continued the date.

“And I think it's important to note that Brandon felt discomfort,”

not from watching himself. He felt discomfort in the moment from the noise, but the footage itself was not distressing to him. That made him happy. >> To have somebody see him and what this was like for him.

>> Yeah. >> So did everybody that you talk to feel this positive about their experience? >> I talked with almost every cast member who has been along the spectrum, and everyone said that they're glad that they did the show.

And Key and told me that no one has ever told him that they regretted being on it. But there was one person I spoke with who had a more nuanced view of her time on the show. Okay, so who was she? >> Thank you so much for getting on and talking with me.

I'm really excited that you're going to be part of this. >> Yeah, me too. >> Kaylin Partlo was a cast member on season one of the American version. She does say that she is happy that she went on it. She now has a following.

She is an autism therapist. She wrote a book called Life on the Bridge that just came out in March.

“>> Despite having a wonderful career, my personal life is very empty.”

>> But she talked about the fact that the thing that happens for other people on the show, some other people, which is finding these romantic connections or even just social connections did not happen for her. >> I don't know that love on the spectrum is really achieving all that it looks like it is achieving. >> Ah, which is not to say that it's not doing good or that it's not in it positive,

because certainly as however, I just don't know that it's resulting in this wonderful

>> She also talked about what makes a good cast member.

“>> It's tricky because with casting, I think they're looking for people who are also kind of”

bubbly and exuberant to a certain degree. >> She thinks that people who are less predictable, more charismatic. Honestly, the kinds of people who make good reality TV are also the kinds of people who are thriving on love on the spectrum. >> At one time, I had talked about myself not making great reality television because

while my story may be unique. It's not like the viewers are sitting on the edge of their seats wondering, oh my God, is she going to put her hands down as pants? >> No one is wondering that my behavior was I think maybe too predictable to make good entertaining television.

>> So in her mind, who's getting excluded from that? >> They're looking for people who have the ability to communicate decently well on cameras that you're already. >> Kaylan noted that people who are non-speaking or who use devices to communicate have not been featured on the show.

And love with the spectrum does say that they're trying to increase casting to tell the breadth of stories that there are about autism because there are countless ones. But key in acknowledges, you know, there are people who require 24-hour care who have autism. Not everybody is able to date and not everybody wants to date.

>> People who prefer to be alone and prefer not to go out or to meet new

“people and I think that's a large portion of the autism spectrum are not going to be”

good candidates for this. >> So they're just not going to be able to tell every kind of story. >> Right. >> Because autism is a huge spectrum. It would make sense that not everybody who's autistic would be good for a reality show,

just the same way that not everybody in the general public would be good for a reality show. But what she's saying it sounds like is that therefore for a show about dating with autism, it could only be so representative. >> I think that that's true. And I think that even as the show's creators say that they are trying to

increase the kind of stories that they're telling, there is a limit to that. All of that makes sense when you remind yourself that this is at the end of the day commercial venture. It has to have an audience, it has to get a distributor, it has to pay for it.

And I wonder what she's basically saying is that that requires inherently

casting that flattens the human experience. You're only casting for a certain type of person. Key and clearly wants this to be an uplifting show. He wants the stories to make you feel good. And so that premise is going to lead you to a certain type of people that

does not necessarily make the universe of people as three dimensional as we know that human beings are. >> Well, no reality show shows a person in their full humanity as a human being. But I do think that this show does not shy away from the really difficult moments. But yeah, at the end of the day, this is a show that has a comedic tone

as you said it is an uplifting inspiring show. And there have been charges from some viewers that it is infantilizing. People were selling t-shirts that said Tanner, who was a cast member in a few seasons. It's a Tanner is my spirit animal. And is that good?

I don't know in some ways that's dehumanizing.

“But Kaylin pointed out that well, who would Tanner be to those people if he wasn't on their show?”

>> Nobody would be anyone's spirit animal if this didn't exist. He would just be another weirdo for lack of a better term who works at a hotel.

And nobody would give him a second glance.

>> And so now he's a person with fans. He's a person with a much larger social world. And yeah, the show does provide a platform to people. And it really expands our universes. >> I don't know, maybe it just shines a light on the fact that acceptance in modern society

is kind of contingent on some of these more palatable factors. And is that the fault of the show? I don't know, is that the responsibility of the show and tend to think not. I think that's more a product of the way our society functions and the show shines a light on it. And so it's easy for critics to point at the show and say you guys are the problem when they just turned on the light.

>> Right. [ Music ] >> We'll be right back. [ Music ] >> Anna, I think the elephant in the room here is that there are a lot of unkind people in the world.

Right. Like there are a lot of people who would or maybe even do watch the show and laugh at these folks on love on the spectrum. And you wrote about the show for the Times magazine and one of the things you talked about was how key and referred to one cast member is being a "comic genius" without even realizing it.

Does that mean that we are laughing with him or does that mean that we are laughing at him?

And I wonder with humor specifically knowing that these folks on the show often in their own lives felt like the butt of the joke or felt like outsiders and felt ridiculed. How is humor treated specifically?

“Like how does key and think about that line between laughing with somebody and laughing at somebody?”

>> The balance between being laughed with or laughed at something that key and the team are thinking about constantly.

>> You know, this is a lot of humor in the show and I don't know how.

We never get it, I think it's just more of a gut instinct feeling of, you know, on the day, but specifically in the edit, I think that's where it really kind of you really have the chance to sit with something and make sure that it feels okay. >> That's another source of frequent debates where there's something where they're like okay is this too far. >> Yeah, I don't think there's been a time where someone has said that feels a little bit too much where we've kind of said no just keep it it's it's good it's it makes for good content.

>> But that's the thing there are people who maybe don't realize what's funny about them, but then in watching the show and getting positive feedback and seeing what people laugh at.

>> They learned to enjoy that, cast members talked to me about the joy of becoming a meme and the joy of having their lines quoted back to them and the joy of seeing themselves.

“>> Even though they weren't planning those as comic moments at the time, I think that they love that people are experiencing them communically.”

>> You know, and it's something that I just keep thinking of as we're talking is this idea of representation. >> Like that thing that Kaylin said about who would tenor be if he wasn't on this show because when you're talking about representing people in media who often do not have that much visibility. >> I think if you look at history. >> The first win is just getting represented at all right and then the second win is getting represented fairly like I think if you looked back on early depictions of black people or Jewish people or pick a marginalized group.

>> Contrary at least if you looked at early examples of them in film and television I think you would find a lot of examples that people now might consider offensive or cringe. >> And that makes me wonder whether this show whether love on the spectrum with so little to compare it to with so few people at disabilities represented relatively speaking in other film and television shows. >> If you think that this show will stand the test of time like how will we look back on this. >> I think the difference between this and the marginalized groups that you mentioned is that I think you were talking about things that were scripted and this is actually real people's lives in a very intimate way.

>> But there is something about you know this is a show where the two co-creators neither one of them has autism. >> Right. >> So that's something to think about although key in was diagnosed as being neurodivergent after starting the series and his co-creator her son was diagnosed with autism while they were filming the first season. >> There are these connections that they didn't even realize that they had to this group but when you look at a show where there's constant affirmative consent with the cast members about whether they want to keep filming.

>> And you hear that cast members want to keep going back and that even people who had their issues with the show like Kaylin one of the things she was disappointed was that she wasn't asked back.

“>> I think that that's why viewers feel so good when they watch it.”

>> Like everyone feels good at every stage like if it feels good to make it it feels good to consume it. >> Just to be totally candid I'm 39 I'm single I'm dating in New York and I'm watching the show and preparation for talking to you. >> And I'm just so floored at how directly people are communicating I'm watching people and I'm thinking to myself oh my god oh my god all so many people want in the world we're dating and single is for somebody to know what they want and me what they say. >> That's what I'm watching I'm literally watching a show where people are doing that and it just struck such a chord in me and I think probably so many people who find themselves reflected in the dynamics of the show and find things that are so relatable in the dynamics of the show even if the actual experience of these people is so different from their own lives.

>> I think that's what can sought to make when he was doing this he saw that there wasn't that at least in the world of reality dating shows which I think are reflective of the world of actual dating today. >> And the unlikeliest person created the unlikely a show where like we're finding humanity and connection on reality TV and it's authentic even though it's a TV show.

>> But like you said it's something that anybody can find themselves in.

“>> Not enough to say this kind of embarrassing I have nightmares that I am back to being a cast driver and I'm like driving a bus around with a cast in crew on a film.”

>> And this never happened and I never got to a point where I was you know directing anything or telling these stories.

>> I'm just really think that for to be able to make something in this world of film and television that sometimes gets a little cynical and to be able to make something that people engage with that is also has a bit of purpose.

>> It has a bit of purpose behind it.

“>> I need to just keep reminding myself of that because it is pretty special to be able to do this.”

>> And it's because of the cast you know it's because of their wonderful people that they are and letting us tell their stories. >> And appeal thank you so much for joining us thank you so much for having me Rachel.

“>> Today's episode was produced by Luke Vanderplug with help from Tina Antelini.”

It was edited by Wendy Dore and our production manager is Franny Kartoff. >> contains music by Mary and Luzano and Dan Powell and was engineered by Sophia Landman. >> And appeals book is called Enter the Villa the unauthorized reality behind love island. >> That's it for the daily I'm Rachel Abrams see you tomorrow. [BLANK_AUDIO]