Olivia Rodrigo Tried Writing Love Songs. Then Life Got Messy.

and I wanted to find out a few of our writers' favorite tips.

“When you're first moving into your home, make sure that you change the beddy scene”

to smoke the tent through. Buy mattress bag, but you can carry a mattress more easily because the handles are built in, and it's going to protect your mattress from the truck and the street. Make sure you have towels on hand, you don't want to end up taking a shower and using a dirty sock to dry off. Yeah. If you're getting ready to move, let Wirecutter help you make a plan,

at NYTimes.com/moving. Hey, it's Michael. Today, we're going to do something a little bit different. We're going to hand our show over to our colleagues at PopCasts, the Times Pop Culture Show. It's hosted by Music Critic, John Karamonica, and Culture Reporter Joe Koskarelli. You've heard both of them on the daily before talking about bad bunnies, Super Bowl performance,

not to mention Joe's interview with Taylor Swift, which was featured in our episode a few weeks ago about the 30 greatest living American songwriters, except of course for Billy Joel, who got snobbed. The big news is that PopCasts will now be coming out every week as both an audio and video show, featuring some of the biggest names in music and culture, like ASAP Rocky, and Hathaway, Rosalia, and many more. We love what PopCasts is doing, and we want to share it with you.

So, take a listen to John and Joe's recent interview with the singer Olivia Rod Wego about her new album, her songwriting process, and her thoughts about speaking out about politics. You can find PopCast every Thursday at nycimes.com/[email protected]/popcast or wherever you get your podcast.

Okay, enjoy the show. I actually don't think I've never really done a podcast before too,

“I think this is my favorite one. I've never like sat down and done like a two hour”

occasion thing. So, okay, we'll get to come for you. All right, get them, get them, get them, got the log in, I'm coming off those arms, I'm coming off those arms, I'm coming off those real loose, real loose, severance, take a deep breath, young lean, taught us how to do breath work, America by Duke, taught us how to do breath work. I would trust Erica by Duke, with my life. We did fire breathing with her. Sometimes that makes me more nervous. I didn't want to tell her about that.

Crazy ones and yoga, we're like, I'm like, I'm hyperventilating now, this sucks. Let's do that. Wait a minute, hold on. Yes, yes, yes. Thank you, that's the I haven't seen it. Welcome to the New York Times Popcast, your bedroom of Versailles of weekly culture chat. I'm John Keremonica, I'm the critic. I am Jocas Carelli, I'm the reporter.

I move your Rodrigo and I'm on Popcast. Finally, thank you. Thank God, I love you guys. I love

this show. It's very exciting. And as we said to you, just a moment ago, truly on our 1.0 mood board, having your ear, we're extremely thrilled that your ear, what a special day, truly. For me as well, I really appreciate all the work you guys do and I love all of your opinions and certainly, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if you're that good. I'm true informed conscious. They are thought through. They're all true. They don't agree with that. That's not a good reason. I'm not a

predecessor. Thank you. When you tell your friends, just put it in the gift. Just put it in the gift. Just put it in the gift. Just put it in the gift. Just put it in the gift. Just put it in the gift. Critics are allowed. Critics are allowed. You don't need much introduction, but Olivia Rodrigo, the Grammy, winning artist, singer, songwriter, behind four now, number one hits. Most recently dropped dead from her new album. You seem pretty sad for a girl so in love. Out June, 12th, very soon.

Starting in 2021, Olivia bursts on the scene with driver's license, a smash that was the most obvious.

“You might have been my first interview for that too. I remember. I think that happened. We did”

dive a song. Wait till your second semester, senior year, and you just released your first single.

Yeah, first semester. Yeah, I've not even second. I'm like dying over here. We knew you're going to have, I think, a long and special career. Before that, Olivia was known for work on Disney. First on Bizarre Park. Shadow of two Bizarre Park. Shadow of two Bizarre Park. If you haven't seen it, it's Sunday on kids and maybe you didn't have a resurgence though. Is that true? It will stop in the street, and they're like, oh my god, I'm like, oh yeah, I make music.

That's amazing. That's incredible. High school, musical, the musical, the series.

All the long title titles here. Truly an incredible song. Yes. It would be insane to think I might actually have shot at playing Gabriella. Your first two albums, Sarah and Guts, mixed pop punk fury with devastating balladry. That's sort of been your magical formula. Up to this point, you're swirving yet again on this album. We're going to get into it. We're going to talk about the new work, and so much more. So you are, it's about to get very intense. You're in the

roll-up is is rolling. Coming up to town release, we have the opportunity to go to S&L a couple

“weeks ago. But I feel like you should also tell the viewers about how you corrected the scripts.”

Wow, okay, we would do it right now. You know what I'm going to do? Okay, good. So we will, we will tell that story. So we got to watch you host and perform. S&L, I know it's been, it was a dream to do that. I wonder if you can just talk a little bit about that experience and then we'll talk about our uncredited, our uncredited assist. Back to action. Yeah, it was so much fun. I have been dreaming about hosting and

performing on S&L forever. I'm such a huge fan of everything that they do. I think just artistically it's a real feat that they managed to pull that off every week. And even if like sometimes you're like, oh, that sketch wasn't my favorite. It's still just so astounding that they're able to do something that high quality week after week. The work that they put in his insane getting to like witness that up close was really, really inspiring. Like we're blown away. It's

insane. Like the way that they work that just, they're such a family. They like love each other so much they get along. They're so devoted to this like common mission and cause. I think that's why it works. I think people were like kind of iffy about it, the show would fall apart. But everyone is just so steadfast and they're desire to make the best show possible. And it's just really inspiring from an artistic standpoint, like whether or not you're like into comedy or not. That was my exact

experience because I'm not traditionally a huge SNL fan and I've been there during the week.

So like with artists doing some reporting, etc. But I'd never seen a full show. So we were at the

dress rehearsal and we were sitting in the balcony and just watching the behind the scenes of how many people it takes, the sets, the movements. You guys did an amazing stunt. People were falling down the stairs the way they did that. I think they posted some behind the scenes on SNL. You very gamedly did your own SNL. But the thing you were alluding to is that the final skit we saw in the dress rehearsal was you and Veronica in the backseat of an Uber and the driver breaks out into

“that's why. Yeah into a Jamaican pet wall rap. And in the early version of the script we saw,”

they had you referring to what he was doing as Regaton. And John and I were like, we're sitting John and I were sitting right next to each other and like immediately we're just like, so, and that at the end we're sort of like, do we tell someone like this? Like something. We didn't want to see you get flamed on the internet for like, guys things. So we managed to relay the message that it was probably the word they were looking for was either dancehall or Regate or whatever.

To make a dancehall and then when I woke up the next morning, the first thing I got served on Instagram was that skit on social and I was like, oh no, and then I saw the subtitles and it said, okay, but you like started aggressively singing a Jamaican dancehall song like really loud? Yeah, you guys, you guys saved the guys. I wasn't gonna bring it up, but I got you guys

“sure, that's how the sausage gets better. We're fact-checking all music here on out.”

That is the one of the big 10-pole moments of the next few weeks you being on SNL, and we have been able to hear your album and live with it for a little while and by the time when this comes out, it's still gonna be a little bit before people, but we can talk about it, we have some details, we give some gems out, a little teaser, a little teaser. So this album to me strikes me as a chronological, structured, mini-arrative

about the rise plateau, high plateau, and then collapse of a relationship. I'm curious from a writing perspective, are you writing those things in real-time as the experiences are happening? Yeah, for the most part, it is chronological in the order in which it happened in my life, and it's the first time that's like happened, and I think it's

was really interesting for me creatively to structure it that way, but I've never been a person who's

and sound this way, and look this way, like, I write songs to like process my feeling, so every day when I like come and like I sit at the piano and I get the guitar, I go to the studio, it's like,

“what does what is like burning in me to say right now? Yeah, um, I think it just like all comes from”

the heart, and I think it's not super like calculated in that way, and so, um, so they sort of aggregated in a way like we're writing songs, and then you took a step back, and said, huh, it is kind of like boom, boom, boom, it's like, yeah, but I'm really happy with the way it turned out, and I think Dan and I, like, sort of like, after writing breakup songs and stuff, we like had the fun challenge of going back and like actually tweaking some of the love songs

are on the record and making them a little more honest, and more sad and creepy, like the song purple is just, it was originally a love song, which feels like a big turning point on the album. Yeah, it's like six songs, and it's purple, and it's like that's when like the doubt creeps in, and then the cure, it's like you flip the record, and then it's the cure, and it's sort of like the unraveling, as we say, of this narrative, and so yeah, it was really happy with the way that it

turned out, and sort of after the fact, we've already written like the first like maybe six songs

of the record, and writing them more like sad, sort of decomposed songs on the record, we kind of like post-mortem kind of went in and changed things, and sort of made it a whole body of work rather than, you know, like little moments. Is there a specific line or or stands in one of the first songs that you remember being like, okay, I really need to reframe this. I really need to deepen this. Is there something that sticks in your mind? Yeah, I mean, like the honeybee lyric, like having honeybee,

honeybees when my favorite song is the record, and having it also tying it back into the last song,

“I think was really nice for me to just sort of mean it feel more like I don't think that it's a,”

it's not a concept album, I think that's doing it to service to actual concept albums, but I think it's like a capsule. Yeah. Look at the thing, and so like little things like that are changing purple or putting that little honeybee thing kind of towards the end of the process, mean feel like, okay, it's really an album now, and it's really telling this like one story. I would go so far as to call it a concept album. You think? The narrative is so tight, like,

what is good kid mad city? If not, if not, if not an album with a beginning and an end. Sure. And then you come back to the beginning, like the fact that dropped dead, the opening track is like, essentially before the first date and leading into the early excitement and butterflies of a relationship and falling in love, and one of the things I really like is there's different slices of what happiness in a relationship look like? Yes. As you say, there's these little moments

of doubt that start to creep in. When did you realize that you had an ending? Because if you're writing this in real time, presumably you were as floating on air as you were, and some of these early tracks, like where did you think the album could end if you stayed in that?

Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I think I always knew that I didn't want it to be,

like even super song to me, I was really inspired by this book simple passion by any or no. It's like this, she's having this affair with this person. And she's not quite happy, she's kind of just going insane. Like everything she does, she's reminded of this person, belonging like overcomes her, and I was like, really, I was really inspired by just all of the ways in which love makes you insane and miserable. You know what I mean? I think that there's a lot more to mind there than just like,

yay, I'm so hot, you love me, yeah, that's everything. And so I was always kind of curious about trying to like mind these more depressing feelings out of these love songs. And I think initially I thought that that was what the record was going to be, just all love songs for trying to inject, some sadness into them, and then obviously sadness in a real kind of more whole way crept its way into the end. I guess when I started making it, I didn't know how it was going to end and I

“think that's how I always started all the records, but totally. And you've talked about the”

destabilizing nature of love, and there's a song like Megat's for Brains, you know, which you have mentioned previously that multiple songs in the album are inspired by Miranda and from sex in the city. I knew that going in before I heard it. And that was one of the songs where I'm like, this is a very Miranda song, this idea that she's like, you know, my brain is mushed. Basically, is that, is that a Miranda? Yeah, it's from the scene where Miranda is getting back together with Steven.

She's like, whatever, something funny happens. I always want to tell you about it.

Any time something funny happens, I want to tell you, and it's on the lyrics in the second verse. But yeah, that's one of my favorite songs in the record. I really love, I think when we made that one like song, it clearly, I was like, oh yeah, like this is this feels right in this feels like the point in time that I'm not. I think I, I kind of knew and Dan and I who made the record with like,

like really listen to. But I think going into it, I felt like a little, like it wasn't, it didn't feel exciting to me or something like rock in the traditional sense of like power chords, like distortion, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's not here on the show. That's not here on the show.

“Yeah. But I think that's something like that feels like alternative to me without being like,”

I love rock and roll by John Jett, which is one of my favorite songs, love that song. But like, it was in a more subtle way. And that was more exciting to me than writing like some like really bang or thing, which I love, I love those songs. I love that later. But I think like making that song was like, okay, this is the kind of like figured out what I like wanted the sound to be a little bit or like what was going to be different about this record. It's interesting to hear

you talk about those, that style of rock not being as much of a draw as it was in the words you albums, because obviously there are certain moments on this album that are really living. And like the 80th to the 85 world, you're sure to get any new romantic, you're getting the cure, you're getting a little talking heads. I wrote Dvo down at one point a new order. Yeah. But what is that sound and style signal to you that the pop punk and this records that you've been playing with

previously, don't signal. Yeah, just felt more exciting. There's something about the restraint of it that felt nicer. I was just really obsessed with that type of music, too. I was making it

like I did Gossenbury with Robert Smith, which was insane. I'd always been a fan of the cure,

but like since meeting him and like getting hang out with him, I kind of went back and listened to all those like new wave bands like that. And I was living in England at the time. So obviously, you get a lot of like English band in Spain. For me, in songwriting, the sentiment always comes first. And so I knew that I wanted to write songs about how it felt to be in love. And I'll feel like that to me. It kind of feels like that vibe, like that that's just the emotional

“quality of it. I can't describe it. It's just like that's that's how it felt. It didn't feel like”

like, you know what I mean? You also used, I think, a clever trick where you connect the new wave of the 80s with music influenced by new wave. I think like there's some songs on here that sound like Latiga. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Instead of bikini kale, you know, both, both Kathleen Pan with touch points, but different, different sides of the Olivia Fam. Kathleen Of course. You know,

I had a thought when listening to my way that there's like some no doubt in there. I know you're a big return of Saturn. And you mentioned the care of who's band both of those arrows who continued making music through that. And they are a through line through the album. You

allude to just like heaven and dropped it. The first song, then there's a song called the

care, which will be the next song that people hear from the album that comes after purple in the track list. And that's the moment where you say you're puning obviously on the band title in some ways. But you say, well, it's not fixing me. It's not, it's not the be on the end. Oh, can you talk a little bit about the writing of the cure and what that song means to the album's. Yeah. I think that song is the the sustainment of the album. You seem pretty sad for a girl

so in love. I remember making that song and feeling so excited. Like, okay, I know what I'm like trying to say with this thing. I love that song so much. It makes me like emotional to listen to it now. I don't know how it started. I was on my couch and I played the chords of Dream Tintin and wrote the verse lyrics and thought that there was really interesting and brought it to Dan and we finished it together. And yeah, it just means so much to me. I think

that that was a realization that I had and you can only have when you're like in like a real big girl relationship. I think that for so long when I was younger, I was like reaching for something. It was like, oh, if I have this, then I'll be happier. If I have this thing and

even in my career, I'll be happier. If I have this guy and he loves me the way I always thought

he would love me like, I'll feel better about myself and, you know, slowly throughout the course of my life and this relationship that I'm talking about, it kind of just realized that the issues that you have are just going to be solved by some other person, like something that distracts you, but it like it, it's very rich. Yeah, they don't like their reactions yet. I also even think that falling in love actually makes those issues even clearer to you. I think

“that's why it's so important. Like, so my friends are like, well, I'm not going to marry them.”

I'm like, why would I be in this relationship with them? I'm like, that it's like the way that you

by like falling for people and being raw and gross and like making mistakes. And I think that

“that's such a thing that's unique to being an romantic relationship. And so I think I was also”

figuring that out. I think I was in a romantic relationship that was actually real and intimate

for the first time and being like, well, this is holding a mirror to me and I'm seeing

shit that I don't like about myself and that was a tough realization and I think that that's embedded in the cure too. And yeah, I really, I really love the song. It's from my favorite songs of a written, I think it's also in the context of the album, you know, where it sits, you know, just after the middle, but it's long, you're lingering on it. It's like you're you're telegraphing something just simply by saying, you're gonna have to sit with this for five or six minutes,

like that's you're coding meaning the lyrics, but you're also coding in the structure it feels like. Yeah, yeah, I think that's sort of like the apex of the album too. Like I think in all the love songs leading up to it, like there's a hint of like maybe this sort of dissatisfaction,

“I'm like, why do I really miss them? And that's why I'm sad or blah blah blah. And I think when it”

gets to the cure, it's like the most honest part where like all the artists is stripped away. And it's like, I love a song, obviously, I mean, love running like a powerbell at the like really builds, but when I finish this and doing it, it feels like it's some sort of like catharsis or like some sort of acceptance of like that this is your fate. How do you know as a songwriter when something is worth writing a song about? And especially, I mean, look, I've been 20 in my 20s

for at least a few years, four or five years. But I vividly remember the intensity of feeling, I remember the dynamism of being really up and then really down and then going back to how you felt that we earlier and kind of like the instability of that. And if you're experiencing feelings quite intensely and you have a creative outlet for it, what takes it from something that's in here to like damn, I got to get this out. Is there a specific intensity feeling? Is it a detail?

Well, how do you know? Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know, I think you really, every time is different, I'm a big like quantity of a quality songwriter. I write all the time about lots of things. And then sometimes you stumble upon something that's good. I really don't know,

there's not like a, like I've never like, oh, I have an idea and it's going to be an awesome idea.

You're not stingy about it. No, I'm not stingy about it. I have some friends who are the opposite and who like write five songs here and they're the best five songs you've ever heard. I write like 250 songs that are the worst and then I write like three songs that I love. But I just love the process of writing. I love being alone and like playing like a guitar or like writing things down. It's like so much fun for me. I think I know if I've like stumbled upon something good if

I really want to listen to it like a week after I write it or if it makes me feel like, oh yeah, that is how I was feeling and that's a really clear, concise way of saying it. But I know there's it's different every time and you're working it out in the room as well. Like you have your step in the process then you bring it in with Dan and sort of I'm sure there's things that don't make it past that. Meaning it's changed so much. Even like you guys listening to the album,

like I like I listened to some of the mixes before we sent it to you guys and it's like even like a month after making it, it just feels so different in your body. Like you just have totally different associations with it and I don't know. There's there's no signs behind it. I'm still figuring it out. You mentioned the ugly sides of even being in love and one of them that you touch on on this album and what I think is an interesting way is jealousy and being territorial,

which is something that has been present in your earlier music but not as you say from the advantage of a big girl relationship. This song, my way that I mentioned earlier, stray is a little from the central relationship narrative and I thought you make a pretty direct choice to target it at another woman in the tradition of great songs like jolene or a misery business or better than revenge and given your standing among young women

and how important of a songwriter you are to your audience, did that feel like a risk to write a song that pointed where you call yourself a petty bit? Yeah, you know what? I haven't given it so much thought. I think I was just really in the heat of the moment writing it and

“that's how it is and sometimes you're like I really need to get this out and I'm fucking pissed”

and maybe isn't the most evolved thing ever to say but I really loved the song and I love

the way it turned out and I love the song. I always was going through like some Gwen Stefani vibes

in there. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But yeah, I really love that song. It's the album is very angry at all and I think that's the one angry touchstone. But yeah, I'm really proud of it, I stand by it. Is it okay if you're the villain?

character but I also think that certain songwriters and certain pop suits pop stars have had anxiety over the years of like I'm known to be one style of person but I am a complex person. I have these different sets of feelings but sometimes they won't put it in songs but they're like

“probably like two moments on the sound where I was like I think she might be okay with being the villain”

like I'm wondering but I wonder if you think of in those terms. Gosh, it's an interesting question.

I've never really thought about it. I don't know. This sounds like a cop-out but I just like know

who I am as a person really well and I know my intentions and things and I know why I write songs and I know that I am like a nice person and like I like not not suggest. No, no, no, no, no, I'm not, you know, I think I think that that type of criticism only really hurts when there's like something in it that I like think is like a little bit true. Like if something if someone were to like criticize something that I was already doubting I'd be like ah god, that's the stuff that gets to me but

I don't know. I also think that pop music in a really beautiful way. Everyone is projecting their own experiences on to you. Like that's the type of songwriting that I do and that's I love that type of

“songwriting as where I got into it. Like some of the heroes that like do that type of songwriting and so”

I don't take it so personally. When I listen to my favorite pop songs, I'm thinking about my experiences

and like me in that pop song like and how I felt with like my ex-boyfriend and blah, blah, blah, like I'm not really thinking about that person and like the exact specifics that they're talking about. And people can relate to feeling, yeah, I'm pissed and jealous and territorial or whatever it is. It's like that that is as valid of a feeling as what would traditionally be- I think the narrative will. We'll reveal itself over time. I think like whatever I think that that's

out of out of my control and on to my business and my- Fair enough. Since drivers license, one of the other things you've been praised for is your ability to drop a well-placed curse word, especially in F-Long. Vampire also has a great one and it's chorus. It feels like you're a little bit more sparing with it this time around. I mentioned pitch. I think I counted two other F-Bombs. There's like there's a goddamn in there but I thought you really saved the most impactful one

for what to me is like the defining line of the album and sort of the thesis statement outside of the cure. They saved my life. They saved my life. A cruel endeavor. To that, I say, fuck it, whatever. Was that intentional the cutting back? So it was not to consider it

“a crutch to really save it for those gut punch moments? Honestly, no, I remember Dan and I the other”

day were like doing like clean versions of all the songs and were like damn, this usually- this would take us two days. But no, I think I'm just feeling less angsty these days. I don't know what it is. I think maybe I swore more as a teenager as we all do it. I wish you much, which I've only realized now that I have a two year old who repeats all of a sudden. Oh my god. And now my god, I really need a time limit. I need a couple of days. Dan, I believe she has a two year old

two and we all hang out with her obviously a lot in the studio. She goes up to her dad the other day and she's like, "Daddy, why doesn't Olivia say fuck so much?" And I was like, "This is how I'm trying to be. This is how I'm trying to avoid." I was like, "Oh, she's got me by name. She's really funky." The other day, also, we were in the car, we like picked up from school or whatever and I was singing along to the song in the radio and she's like, "Sir, it's about like crying. Daddy, I hate it when

Olivia sings." And I was like, "Oh my god." I never reconsider a lot right now. Probably because she

can associate it with Daddy going to work. Wow. That's true. Wow. That's true. That's true. Don't know, you know, like, it's like I just can't have that. It's a better way of trying to therapy down the line for that. Like, I can't listen to Olivia Redford. Yeah, I can't. That's really, really. Wow. The tension on this album in the arc is about trusting another person and also trusting yourself. There are so many moments in your last album

where I feel like it's you singing about how vast the world has become and how challenging that was to navigate and how do you identify in the real world, not in art, but in the real world, how a person is trustworthy or is a person trustworthy? Like, one of the things that are your either triggers or touchstones and how those things changed over the last four or five years. Yeah. How do you know if someone's trustworthy? Oh, that's such a hard question. I don't know if

I look like a profound answer. That's all right. This is the look. The opcaps were down together. Yeah, opcaps are at least 10% there. Oh, no, I know. I feel that. Um, I don't know. You know, my biggest red flag. It's just now profound at all. But like, sorry.

Whatever, I mean, someone they like, yeah, like a few of my friends, they just like, they just go to me. I don't know what happened. I'm like, um, cause coming from inside the house. Like, that's it. Yeah, it's like one. Maybe it's no. Maybe like okay. I don't even know, like, I'm sure it'll spill.

That's real. Like having like intense falling out with your friends, like, I've never really had that

in my life. I think I think maybe once or twice, but like when people that type of repeated occurrence, sure, I'm like, hmm, interesting, interesting interesting. I think friendships are like the biggest litmus test for whether or not I trust them. I think like someone being able to hold down

“the long-term beautiful friendship is like the best thing that you could do. That's like, you have”

emotional depth. You could care about other people. You know, other people trust it. I mean, so she who, which is, yeah, yeah, I think friendship is a big indicator. But I don't know. I'm something. I'm sure I'll get betrayed more of my life. No. I think they have, of course. The empire is a really good example of trying to figure that out. In real time, and maybe being fooled by someone who you thought was interested in you, but then it was really after your fame, or your notoriety,

or trying to get something from you. I think, when I listen to that album, it's like, so interesting. When you're in it, you can't tell. When you're able to listen to it these days, like, was like rehearsing for a show the other day, and like, listen to all this songs back, it's just like, really is like a 19-year-old disillusionment with the world, and just feeling

like so confused. And I feel like I'm definitely less disillusioned these days, but like, looking back, yeah, it was like betrayal. And like finding your footing, and I think,

“I think I did, I remember going into album being like, I don't want to write about,”

like, being newly famous, because that sucks. And like, I hate when people do that. And I think that there was, hopefully, like, it was in there, like, a little tactually sprinkled in, but I think that that was a huge part of my experience. But I don't think that it's unlike any other 19-year-old going to college. You're just like trusting people. You're so open. You're around all these people

that you've never been around, and you're like, making all these mistakes, and like figuring

shit out in real time. How do you look back on guts, not only artistically, but as a moment in your career, because you talk about this pressure that comes with a sophomore album, you know, people in both the sophomore slump a lot in terms of, I think exactly what you're saying, where it's like, you, your whole life goes into your first album, then between your first and your second album, if the first one does really well, maybe the only thing you have to write about

is sort of what it's like to become newly famous, and is that enough, et cetera, that album was successful on its own terms, of course. But I wonder how you look back on how it was received, and how it performed, and how that influence what you did on your third album, because I was really struck by the fact that this album doesn't feel like you're searching for smash hits necessarily. It felt like you wanted to make an album album, a capital A album was beginning middle and

and I wonder if any of that came from either how guts went or didn't go for you. Yeah, that's a really great question. I think it was hard. I mean, looking back, I have so much compassion myself. That was crazy. What happens? It was crazy. At the time, I didn't realize how crazy. It was like, wow, I'm so happy and grateful. But I didn't realize that that is insane. And I was 17 when it all happened. It's so wild. And if I were to be an

outsider and watch that happen to something like, oh my god, so I think it couldn't, and it realized it at the time. But so I have like a lot of compassion for myself. Even after the aftermath of shower, that was so much pressure. It was so insane. People on the internet, and all this crisis, when you're 19, you don't know who you are in general, you don't know who your real friends are, you don't know who you want to date, you don't know what you really want to be doing

with your life in a real concrete sense. It was a lot. Looking back, I'm so proud of that record.

I think putting it out, I felt a little like, oh god, it's like, I'm never going to make anything

like as big and as good as shower and blue above. But like looking back, I'm so proud of so many of those songs. Like, I think, like, on American beaches, like, my favorite song I've ever written.

“And I think, like, bad. I remember, like, thinking about idea right at the times like,”

that's too weird. And I'm like, I love that song so much now. And yeah, it's just just having a little space, totally changes are perspective on it. But yeah, I'm really proud of both of those records. Even stuff where I'm like, oh god, that song could have, like, I could have lived without that song. It just, you know, I don't know, I think I'll ever regret like writing honestly about where I am

see, you hear them both as art, but also as documents, like the intensity of it. For sure. For sure. This album feels very settled to me. Obviously, you're going through an emotional arc. But you have clarity about that emotional arc. It's not, you're not zigzagging. You're kind of like,

“I think I, I think I see what's happening here. Even if what I'm seeing is bad enough,”

it was tough. But it's like, I see what's going on. Yeah. And does that track with how you live off the off the album? Like, is that when you're talking to your friends, do you feel like much more lucid as a successor of the world? Yeah. Tell me about that. God, for sure. But I just think that that's growing up. It's like, it's an interesting thing to grow up with the people who listen to my music. Like, I feel like we're kind of around the same age. I go through the same things and just like

the lucidity that I see things with. But it's not unique to me. Like, none of it is. So like, I just, I think just collect so many experiences that you kind of know yourself more and know the world more and I don't know. Every album, though, I feel like I'm learning about myself and I'm also learning how to write songs every album. I don't think I'll ever feel like, okay, I know how to do this. Like, perfect. I got this. I like, I know exactly what I want this to be. Like, every time I

“sit down to write a song, I feel like I'm learning it for the first time. And I think that that's what”

keeps it like exciting and fun as a creative person is like, there's never, I have like tips and tricks

and I like know all the pop songwriting tricks that you're supposed to do and all that stuff. But I just really feel like I'm like endlessly learning. And that's what I'm so grateful that I could do this job and just like keep being curious about stuff. One thing that I really enjoyed about this album, there are two songs that are on opposite ends of the album that both feel really unadorned. So it's like you're approaching both this part and how you be honeybee and then I think it's is it

less on this. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm like, okay, so there's a aesthetic choice here that's similar but different sentiments. And I wonder how you think about the pairing of the sentiment of the emotion of the lyric with the production choices and how do you know when it's time to deliver the restrained thing and how when it's time to be like we're going straight to the new wave or we're going straight to the pocket. Yeah, Dan and I love to like throw shit out the wallet.

And it's also this record, the feeling of like being like intoxicated with love for someone, it feels very rich and like orchestral and like honeybee. There's so much in there. There's like a choir and there's a you know string section and there's just like beautiful like piano in it and

“there's just so much it feels really rich and because that's how it felt at the time. You know what I mean?”

That's what it felt to be in love. I think a song like less was added obviously later in the album making process. And I think I think yeah it was us trying to practice a little bit of restraint. Yeah. We were also trying to practice a little bit of restraint with the last song and we were like "Oh, I need to just need to make a bridge." That's bigger. That's bigger. Yeah, I want to produce a lot of production. We talked about the the new wave influence here and I wonder on these songs

on the piano ballads essentially what were your sonic touchstones for those versus the the more upbeat songs? Yeah, I was talking to um you guys know wiseblood. Yeah. She's so great. And she sang less and out with me. Yeah, she's just a huge fan of the two harmonies. Beautiful. She's just one of the greatest voices. She's angelic, beautiful, wonderful person. But I was talking to her about it and she just turned in a new record. She's like, it's so funny.

I tried so much different stuff and tried to like explore so much and you just like always go back

to like what you're good at. Okay. And today's something to which I think that there was just the part of me and I was like I just want to write a singer, songwriter, song that's like classic and that's like sort of my sensibilities. Sometimes and I love exploring and doing other stuff but like that's sort of like 12 year old Olivia fell in love with songwriting for songs like that. And so I really liked that one. I think that was maybe the first song on the album, honeybee and

um, I was like one of those ideas just like at home and I like wrote the whole thing on piano and just thought like wow, like I feel like I really expressed something that was so hard to describe and and in the context of the album, I find it to be actually the saddest song on the album. I find it actually devastating which is really, it's it's you seem pretty sad for a girl. So I'm in love that to a tea. It's this like, it's this love song that's filled with so much hope but also like a

sort of knowing. You know, it's like, it's the music playing in the back of a very soft lady. Exactly.

It takes me back to even pre-driver's license your first big song for high school musical,

the series. All I want. And that's one of these very yearning extreme piano ballots. Who

wanted to just belt and yearn and feel. And Fiona Apple was always my like yearner piano queen.

I got really into Terry Amosol and was making guts because I felt like she was like a piano yearner but I also felt like edgy and rock. Yeah. I fell on the piano. It's really into the dress. Dindalls too. Like that was punk piano. There's something that I'll always love about just like a playing all piano song like that I just feel like is from the heart, singer, songwriter, type of vibe. Yeah. Hi. I'm Megan Laura. I'm the director of photography at the New York Times.

A photograph can do a lot of different things. It can connect us. It can bring us to places we've never been before. It can capture a story in a universal visual language. But one thing that all these photographs have in common is that, you know, they don't just come out of the ether. We spend a

lot of time anticipating new stories working with the best photographers across the globe. These

are photographers who have spent years mastering their technical craft developing their skills as visual chroniclers of our world. You know, getting certified as a scuba diver and learning how to shoot underwater to document climate change or tremendous cardiovascular training in order to ski on the slopes next to Olympic athletes. This is an effort that takes tons of time and consideration and resources. All of this is possible only because of New York Times subscribers. If you're not

a subscriber yet, you can become one at NYTimes.com/subscribe. - What is your answer to something that occurred? Can I be nurses? - No, of course.

“- How do you say me plus you equals part? How would you say it?”

- I don't know, I have to be talking about it. - Yeah, I think me plus you. - Or is it you plus me? Is it you plus me? - You plus me. I don't even know. - So you plus me? - Well, call it you plus me equals equals. - It equals greater than three heart, something. - I don't know. - We're going to workshop. - Yeah, you plus me. - You plus me forever. - Yeah.

- I think it's a masterpiece. I really do. I wrote that in my notes. I'm not just like... - Oh, I got you. It's very cranberries to me. - A lot of all six pens on the richer. It's like that that jangli 90s. You know, I just, I think it has, it both has that line and the bridge that I mentioned earlier that I love, that I think is the greatest away message on this album. You're a little too young for, yeah, I am a way message is, but that's where you put the quotes that

that when you're real. - When you're real. - When you're real. - When the Drake quotes.

“- Yeah, that's what the difference was. There were Drake quotes. That's a dive.”

- That's me. And I just think it has a great build and energy. Yeah, that's far enough.

- Oh, that is not what you were expecting that. - That's never been anyone's favorite.

You're the first person who said that to me. I'm really good at that. - What's your, well, I mean, I'll tell you mine, but you want yours. She's a baby. - I don't want to be outside of the queue. - Okay, and but I'm sorry. The refunded jinn. - The refunded jinn. - That's not what I'm sure. - I'm happy. We almost cut that one from the - Oh, come on. Are you actually serious? - Yeah, it was one of the first we made and you know how you,

you just always liked the song that you made. - Yeah, sure, yeah, that's it. - Yeah, I know carve our names into the car seat leather as the owner of a very nice car. Do you know how stressful I found that line? And I was like, look, maybe in my 20. I've seen some of these guys trying to - What have you done? - I've been watching five and a half days. - You do not touch the car seat leather. - I do not do bad. - Yeah, I know, I'm happy. - Oh, that's wild that you were thinking

you've even cut it. That's insane. - Yeah. - That's so nice. To me, okay, so begged. - Yeah. - You plus me, honeybee, and drop dead. - Okay. - And begged. - I was so funny. You guys

“give opposite answers than everyone else in my camp. That's really good. - What are we hearing?”

- Yeah, yeah, what are the, what are the hits, what are the fanfare? - Every, every one loves the cure of the most. - I mean, the cure is obviously, it's a great song. It's a centerpiece, but when I was listening to the context of the album, I was like, this makes the most sense in the context of the entire album, because it really is connected thread. - It is connected thread. - It is connected to be. And, but in these micro moments, and also I love like a level wailing ass, like hell yeah.

- I love it. You know, but like, even the turn of phrase, I mean, you know, I wrote down a bunch of different lyrics, even the turn of phrase on beg. Nothing's quite enough when I know that to get it, I begged. And just the sophistication of that sentiment, the understanding that just because you may have gotten something, it doesn't mean that it was the thing that you thought you were chasing. And the fact that you actually might be, you might have invented the salute, like you might have

invented it out of thin air, and it wasn't actually real, because you were sort of forcing it. - Yeah, I think. - Yeah, no, I think. - Incredibly sophisticated thought process. - Yeah, I think that's a difference also between like an album, like,

it's less like, fuck you for doing this to me, like it's like, oh, I think that song was like, oh yeah, this happened because I set this up and like, you felt short, but I didn't really,

you never promised that you were gonna do that. And like, it's like a, it's definitely more nuanced

take than I feel like I had the emotional capacity to write about before. - Sure. - And so yeah, that song is really special to me that, it's very, yeah, I found it to be very savvy, like, just like very emotionally savvy. And I think, you know, like, obviously, as people

“cover music extensively and just like, I feel like, you know, you feel like you have to explain”

where you're like, I've heard every metaphor, I've heard every detail, and then someone has a turn of phrase and you're like, oh, and you're that one. So this was, that was a great moment for me. - I'm interested in your development as a lyricist and how is your lyric writing changed between albums two and three verses between albums one and two? - I think, honestly, the challenge for me was in writing a love song. Like, I think that was a daunting task for me, someone who

was very known for writing a break up. - Writing break ups and being angry and sad and people love that. - Yes. - And they're obviously, is that weird, like singers curse thing where you're like, do people only like, we want them sad, you know what I mean? And so that was, I think that was the, the challenges that they're trying to write something about being happy and also making it interesting. And also, I think it was just like a thing that I wanted to prove to myself that I didn't

have to be miserable to write a song that I liked. - Did you use to think that happy songs were like less value than sad songs? - I mean, when I was a teenager, for sure, like, when you're a teenager, that's the shit that you listen to because you're so depressed, you know what I mean? But, uh, I love,

“I mean, as I get older, I think like writing a beautiful love song. Some of them, I swear,”

if you ever love songs, are fucking devastating. Like, like, while the song by the cure is like,

the set, like, however far away, I was always love you, however long I say, like,

kill me, that's so sad, it's so beautiful. It was just me trying to write lyrics in a more mature way about love that weren't so black and white, you know? Like, you can, all of these things can exist at once. You can be in love and also feel insecure and you can be in love and also feel depressed. And you can, you know, break up with someone and still like love that. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's just all of these things can be true at once. And I think, obviously, the teenagers,

you don't have the emotional, like, capacity to really internalize that. And so obviously, it wasn't reflected in the albums. But, um, so I think that that was the challenge, Lyrically. Do you look forward to the day when you can look back at this album and this time in your life and say, oh, 24 year olds, also, maybe don't know that much. You know, so much of the more of like, are you,

“is that, is that like, is that exciting to you that eventually even, like, this, where you do to you?”

I'm so shk of the night. No, I mean, like, is that, do you think, do you think that I said? Well, I know, I know, God, no, I'm not trying to call you out. I'm just like, the way you look at your teenage years. Now, like, you will, whether it's in your 30s or 40s, or later, you'll probably look at your 20s similarly, like, is that something you look forward to? That self knowledge. Hell, yeah. I'm so excited about it. It's a really interesting thing to have

so much of your emotional, whatever, like, like, uh, chronicles. It's insane. I can't even imagine. There's lots of blogs and tweets and articles. There's a lot there, though. But not to the level of detail that you do. And the fact that all of those feelings along the way of yours have meant so much to other people, that they will live on long beyond when you stop feeling them. Yeah. Yeah. It's really beautiful.

I, it's a very unique job. It's a very unique thing. I'm, I'm very, very, very lucky. I, I still

to this day. Don't always understand how I, like, got so lucky. Like, and that sounds like, I'm,

like, I think I'm not like trying to demean myself. I think I'm talented and I work hard. But like, going to a show and, like, looking out into the audience and seeing all of these, like, girls who were, like, nine years old, like, crying to these songs. And it's so deeply touches them. And it's so clearly, like, affecting their life in a way that I could have never, ever imagined. It's just such a, it's a really, really wild thing that I feel like really privileged to be

able to do. I don't really know how I can't, I'm not, like, master-mining it. It just is, like, this beautiful human connection. And I just feel so lucky that I get it in such a potent form. And in my job, and I, I feel very, very grateful. And I hope that I can, like, keep being a positive thing in the girls' lives like that. It's something that I think about. Speaking of that audience and the platform that you have, I think one thing that separates your generation of pop star,

even from the one that immediately proceeds, it is, like, you're comfort being explicitly political. And using that stage to speak to young impressionable fans who care about what you say, you know, you memorably spoke out when Roe v. Wade was overturned, since come out against ice.

Anybody telling you that that's a risk to your business, to use that stage and the audience.

“You have to espouse what are in this day and age. Sometimes controversial views.”

Honestly, I feel like I'm surrounded with people who are very like-minded. And I really appreciate

that. No one has ever been like, don't do that. No. And I always say, like, I am, I really try to

stay educated on things. Like, I make a conscious effort to try my very best because I think that's important for everyone. But I don't know everything. I don't. I couldn't list a bunch of statistics about things. I'm not like a geopolitical scientist. Like, but I'm an artist and like, what I do for my job is like, this is how I feel. And I presented to people. And like, I think it would just be disingenuous to be like, I don't feel heartbroken about what's going on in Gaza. You know what?

I mean, like, that's just, it's just like, as an artist, I feel like that's just what you do. And that's my job. But I don't know. I also feel really weird taking like credit being like, yeah, I'm so like, I always feel like I could be doing more and saying more and stuff like that. So it's a, you know, I don't know. Was it something like that sort of purity of purpose and desire to speak your truth in a variety of ways, whether it's emotional or social, political,

is that something that comes from your household? Is it something that comes from, you know, did something where you're around a bunch of people in your teenage years? You really encourage that in you, like, where, if you sort of trace it back to its origin, where do you think that it came from? Because you've been doing it, this isn't something you arrived at this year. This is something you've been doing for basically the entire time that you've been very famous.

And usually that's exactly the stretch of time that people don't do it. So what do you think was happening to you in the years prior to that, that gave you the sort of sense of self to be able to do that? Yeah, that's an interesting question. I was saying, it's going to make me emotional,

but my parents are awesome, and my parents never made me feel like stupid for saying something,

“or never made me feel like I was being too much or too emotional or oversharing. And I think”

I grew up in a household where, like, me being outspoken and performing and saying what I believe in, and, like, being ambitious was, like, just so supported. And I think my, I have the most wonderful parents in the world. I was a child actor, which is really crazy, because my parents are, like, the least-day parenting parents you've ever met in your whole life. But it's just, like, bread, I think a sense of, like, ambition in me and, like, wanting to express myself and, like, do things,

and hopefully be a positive, like, influence on something or someone, I don't know, but, um, I don't know, I think I, I think I, oh, that's a them. They really always made me feel like I could do anything or say what was on my mind without, you know, feeling ashamed. And so there isn't your mind, like, a moral component to being an artist. If you're going to be a person as a voice who has sway, who has influence, you think that some degree of responsibility comes

“comes with that. Yeah, I think it's just a job. I don't even know if I would say, like,”

it's your responsibility, like, step out, but I just think it's, like, it's the same way that I talk about how I'm sad about a breakup on our song. It's like the same, it's the same thing. It's the same emotion. It's just, like, maybe expressing a different medium. Most recently,

there was some internet detective work as there always is around you. People claiming that you

liked, uh, post about protesting the Matt Gala. Enjoy your damn gala. Did you not attend for moral and political reasons, or is that an overread? Oh, gosh. Um, I, I just, I'm not really a fashion girl. Really, I'm not a fashion girl. I just say, look, also, I say, can't delete many people who attend the Matt Gala or not fashion, and you know who you are, and I know who you are. Gosh, I'm shooting my words wisely. Um, I just, it, it, it, it, I think, I think, I've, I've, this

my third album, I think that I, um, I feel, I don't feel like I, I, I need to do things that don't like bring me joy or inspire me or, uh, feel me or feel aligned with my like value. Is there something like that? Like, I, I, it's just, it's not like as fun or exciting anymore. I like, I was fun or exciting. It's like, talk to you guys or making a song that I really love or like make a music that I think is cool. Right. You can say no. You're at the point in your career.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You can be a little more discerning, and I think that that's cool. And I, I, um, and not a setback. Like it's, because I know in the, in the first waves of fame, you're just like, I want to say yes to everything. Like now I come again. Yeah. Like, literally, like, I, there are doors behind the doors. I don't even know where doors that I can open, but now that you've seen the doors. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's sometimes is fun,

and sometimes it's exciting, but I just, I don't know. I feel like what's really fun and cool is like making stuff that I like and hanging out with my friends who really know me. I don't know. It's, it's not, it's not a complete experience. Yeah. It's speaking of internet detective work.

that the Disney alum and the Ares tour performer are not in friendly terms. Taylor was retro

actively credited on one of Olivia's biggest hits, deja vu due to an apparent interpolation of Taylor song Cruel Summer. You're at a Paul McCartney concert in Los Angeles, and you guys are walking out at the same time, and then there's people on the internet being like, are they facing each other or they facing what? I wonder how stuff like that strikes you. Given that I imagine

“you know how you feel, and you know the state of play, how do you view that layer of scrutiny?”

Yeah. I don't know. I don't really like read too far into it. I think it like comes to the territory, and it's part of the course, and I think if I dove into every internet detective sleuth that got things right or wrong about my life or any of my relationships, I think I just go crazy like there's just not enough time in the day. Yeah. I think maybe it started at such a high level for you around driver's license that anything after that. For sure. You were like

you went through it. You went through people trying to figure out who is this song about and why and was that nice to get that out of the way early? Maybe it wasn't nice to go through it. I do think so. I think it made me feel detached from it. I had to detach from in order to like literally like be okay, such as such a crazy experience for like everyone involved. And I think I just had to learn to detach. I think that that's something that I hopefully am good at.

These days still trying to detach from people who like don't know every little detail of my life.

“I think you just have to otherwise you just go crazy. I also think there can be value in”

someone like you setting the record straight or saying what you really feel about something when people are trying to guess how you feel, you know one of the other things you've been a lightning rod over, you know, bringing back a conversation from 20 to 25 more years ago is like the idea of the baby doll dress and what it means to write girl and what it means to dress subversively or other people who say no no it's infantilizing or it's played out as a symbol like

that's it making me so upset not even for me like I don't care people could do what does it mean to you. What is that that? What is really like disturbing is I feel like I actually where I have one outfits that are like maybe revealing on stage like I've been on stage and like a sparkly bra and like little shorts and like which is my right. That's fun. I felt cool and comfortable in that and like that wasn't inappropriate but me like fully covered up in a dress that people deemed to be like childlike was inappropriate

and I just think it it just like shows how we just like really normalize pedophilia in in our culture and also it's just as this this like rhetoric that we're fed as girls since we're so little which is like don't wear that because then a man is going to sexualize your body and it's your fault. Like it's so weird and I didn't think that I looked sexy in that I was like this is so cool. I felt like I'm like Kathleen Hanna or like Courtney love all these people who are my heroes

and I felt cool and comfortable in it and like I just think if we start dressing in a way that's like oh I don't want some fucking freak to think that I like in sexy like a baby or like some crazy thing like that like I just I just think it's like losing the plot a little bit. Yeah I'm just very protective of like younger women and girls and I just I don't ever want them to be big fed that rhetoric I guess. And also protect their right as they grow up to do

what ever it is. Yeah we would call it it's like yeah you shouldn't be responsible for

some guy sexualizing you in a way that was never in your intention like yeah.

One thing that I was curious about listening to this album you talked about girls in your audience seeing nine-year-olds ten-year-olds cry what do you want people to actually take away from the album are you telling them a story about romantic relationship are you telling them a story about emotional development are you just making songs you hope you will sing along to what's the thing like obviously the finished product is a collection of songs but there's more what do you want those

girls to listen to on the day comes out to listen to what do you want them to feel and think. Yeah that's a great question. I mean I I I want them to like kind of be along for the ride in the story because there's a story it's like a it's a beginning in middle and in end. I think like the goal for any piece of work for me would be like to provide some sense of like emotional catharsis

I think that would be amazing or some sort of like understanding or um I don't know I just feel

“like growing up if I heard a song that spoke to me and I was like oh yeah that's how I feel”

and it helps me better understand myself in the way I feel around that I'm insert issue here you know I I think that that's the dream and I would I would love it if that was somebody's takeaway yeah do you feel like you're fan like I assume you have fan interactions that are more one-on-one not

this sort of micro moments like what do you hear from those girls yeah it's so sweet I mean

“especially the young girls yeah yeah that's sort of I mean I love that and I think like sometimes”

I don't know if you've been like oh you don't you want to like lean into your older audience that's something like that's so cool that like eight-year-old girl finds like my song to be moving like that is like the most special thing ever like I remember being eight-years-old and listening to music and it just meant so much to me and the fact that I could like maybe be a someone's of that for someone who's so exciting and I don't I just think that like people like young people especially

just so emotional like I love hearing stories from like girls who like have never held a

boy's hand and they're like traders my favorite song like my friend at school changed friend groups and it like devastated me and it's like that is their whole like it turns their whole life on its head and it's like so cool to like watch them process all those feelings and and also in an environment like a concert where it feels like this communal processing of emotions I um I watched this this documentary that the day called like it's called like spirits in the forest

if you guys watched it oh wow it's about it's a freshman but it's not even it's not a concert film about it's like it doesn't have anything really to do with the members of depression mode it's like these five people who are huge depression mode fans and it follows their life leading up to like the last depression mode concert in the Berlin or something oh wow it's just like an idea it's so comfortable and it's it's just about like how going to a concert is not even about like it

delighting or like what someone's wearing couldn't metal it's like these people in the stories that they bring to this concert like one of the women who the documentary uh talked about she like

“hit her head or something and she woke up and she didn't remember anything about her life”

didn't remember where she was remember her name remember her husband's name but she remembered every single of the pashmode lyric and when I woke up I didn't remember anything of my former life

except one thing which is the dish mode like how incredible is that it sounds like a daily mail start

it's just so cool that I get to play a show or do something and all these people bring their own experiences of my songs to this show and the all share it together like like it kind of doesn't like I feel like the concept is it's like 75% of what makes a concert great is the audience maybe in one maybe it's like 80% it's like that's the number one music instrument or like cool thing like that does all of the talking and you've become this part of girlhood and you talk about

the influence of so if you copula on what you've done and you you work a lot with Petra Collins and that's been a subject and a muse for her as well and you mentioned these this peanut gallery idea of like oh don't you want to speak to your older audience you know you look at what Sophia copula's done and she did the version suicides decades ago and she's still telling that story in Priscilla from a from a different angle do you feel like that's ever a subject that you

will have to let go of and move on from as as you age and mature or do you think it could remain forever for you I mean I don't know I guess I don't like come into my album being like

“this is girlhood like I think I just try to like this is where I'm at right now and I think”

that just maybe is girlhood because I feel like a girl but I'm 23 so I guess I'm a woman now but you know I don't know I just think I I just think there's something beautiful about like this shared experience that we all have and even like something like driver's license was a really special experience on on so many levels but that song meant so much to me because it was about my

experience but also it just like united other people in their own experience of like a first heart

break or something like that I think whatever whatever experience people if it's if it's girlhood if it's something else like whatever they attach whatever meaning they attach the song I would be happy with there's one line that jumped out of me on this album because I I think on earlier songs and earlier albums something that comes up here and there is like you encounter someone you're encountering and he's delivering you your line or a bit and then you have this

awakening that like he's delivered the liner the bit right and then that's that moment of like wait a minute like that's that's practice that's rehears but then there's a line on this album where you say all my exploits friends have heard these lines you know you're self out right but I was like but to pick up on Joe's question about sort of girlhood is a topic and maturity and how songwriting evolves I heard that line I was like oh like this feels like

just the tiniest suggestion of leaving some of that other energy behind and saying like

broadly speaking on the album yeah it's like what we're saying before I think like the album

hopefully is my most nuanced approach to a relationship and like it's you know a real relationship for two people like know each other and love each other deeply isn't like will be who it mean to me that one time there's just so much I've been pleasure just like learning about yourself and like your shortcomings and like the ways in which you have failed or have like you know

“sabotaging certain aspects of the relationship like I think hopefully that there are moments in”

the record right kind of acknowledge my own um part and maybe some like negative parts of the relationship

yeah it's worth yeah no no we're talking about no one's been comfortable playing something like

a villain or calling yourself out for it also very sexy in the city it got it went prepping for this it got us in the city for oh no I won't be next on the countless countless amount of times but it did cause us in a meeting to go around and do who who who who who we are you want to go one of the girls yes we kept us through the car my name is you man later I've heard people be like I'm mad I'm like girl yeah I think you're a Charlotte man wow that's interesting John I think accurately

this is actually a twist that says that I'm that I'm a Miranda with uh with a dash of

Samantha with a dash of yeah and John is actually the way I don't know they're guests it's okay

you can get it wrong it's totally fine you don't know yeah like that there's no long answer except all the wrong answer I know I don't know I don't know you're really on a spot there's no or the impression there's a carry was a dash of Samantha very close okay I'm actually I feel like

“I'm a carry with Charlotte okay which is is that not what you identify yeah and I think I'm”

a Charlotte whistle with chair sure yeah yeah yeah yeah and this was instructive because sometimes the answer that I might arrive at myself maybe it's maybe it's a little bummed bat you know but as they arrived at it for me I mean John's obviously a carry you know it's obviously a carry with all the complications that it's unbelievable yeah okay I guess fine sure we had a couple of questions in our lightning round ever what is this that's the best part of this ground

breaking journalism it's important also the you know you got to build lore also we're building lore I have a custom sex in the city shirt that I meant to wear today but it's a one of one made from anybody a very dear friend and I'm very sad I forgot to wear it. I love that I love stuff. I have a few like like you know like cast and crew gets like a thing at the rye have a few sex in the city rap stuff I don't know how I got it. Like from you like like gift yet from eBay maybe

it's fake I don't know I'm sure it's so wear it with with pride. All right so 52 cards in the pop cast deck each one corresponds to a pre-written question some are deep some are shallow and we'll see where the

“fate takes you. This is so fun thanks for having you guys. No this is a we're entering what do you got?”

Okay I got two of diamonds. Two of diamonds. Two of sparkles as I say. That's okay okay two sparkles yeah okay again we continue to learn that people's relationship to playing cards I didn't even know you could have unusual relationships. You guys know I have I have the most unusual I love playing cards so much. I travel with four playing cards on me at all times because I had a game before deck. What do you play? My manor's got me a batega carrying case for Mike. It's just for your cards.

It's like so boozy because I don't go on. We got to get a podcast. We're gonna mail you a pop cast deck. We're gonna mail you a pop cast deck. We're gonna mail you a pop cast deck. We're gonna mail you a pop cast deck. What games do you play? I play this game called Canbeau that's like I think golf called golf and other places and then just game called nerds I really like the same multiplayer solitaire. You're my deep cutting card games. You just know go fish for me like wow no. I'm trying to be on my

phone lessons so if I'm like having that age I'll just play solitaire. Wow. Can I just briefly identify myself myself as an older person? Okay. This is the game Egyptian rat screw. I think that's a big one. My Egyptian rat screw champion. Wow. We're gonna play. Yeah. I was I was killing it. I was annihilate the older kids. It was a great time in my life. Like one of my early like highlights.

Okay. This is a tough one. Some of these are light. Some of these are hard. This is a tough one. I would say what is the most difficult thing that happens to you in your personal life that your career prevented you from dealing with properly. Oh my god. It's been quite revealing. I've led a very charmed life. I haven't had anything really awful happen.

“I think this is like in no way what was me but I think I feel really sad that I didn't have a”

child. Well that's I mean basically huge and total. I'm totally okay but yeah I was yeah that's that answer. That's the answer. Yeah yeah I'm a little sad. Is it is it a persistent kind of like low grade, low hum but something you think about a lot but not maybe intense spikes but it's kind of

always like covering. Yeah it reveals itself in certain ways and relationships. It's just a

push and put like I live the most amazing life when I get to travel the world and like have all these incredible experiences and talk to cool guys like you but like I yeah I didn't ever I wasn't in high school and have a good group of friends and I was just gonna say you know I was in tough to form friendship. Super hard and it is even harder to think for me. I have a wonderful group of friends now that I'm really like lucky and great before but I do feel like I'm so

ahead in certain areas of my life and then maybe like in some like social areas I'm like a little behind. Yeah sure. Just because I was I'm in the school the only child that I was very lonely like

“upbringing and I think that's why I like wrote so many songs too. Is it mean you feel less alone? Yeah”

and yeah I mean we feel understood and yeah it's all good. No no no no no it's not. It's not all good. It's great that you have the perspective you know it's not it's not so me you're going to wake

up 10 years and I'll be like damn I never thought about that. Yeah I think that actually

leaves me back to something I feel on this album which is like your clear ride about not being clear ride you know sometimes and that's a that's a cool place to be. Yeah I'm not being clear ride like that. Next album. Okay okay nine of Clovers. Again amazing. I'm I learned something every show. Clovers and sparkles. What sparks your jealousy? Oh my god. You're falling hard on. I know I mean listen valuable. I don't know I mean like romantic jealousy is definitely

thing that I've talked about and like all three albums. It definitely gets like less all encompassing though as I get older. What about non-romantic jealousy? Yeah like just a really nice bag or a person you know like just like interpersonal jealousy. I mean I get jealousy people songs all the time. Yeah. Like not in a midway where I'm like uh I don't like you but like that's but that's also a really great feeling to like hear someone song to like god I wish I wrote that. For some people

jealousy is very animating. No I'm a really good motivator. Really a great motivator. It's like an indicator that like this is what I want. It's good deep down I desire you know. That's real spell. Yeah that's real spell. All right fine on a card maybe I'll get a little bit intense. I know my god it's hard heaters. Okay Ace of Clovers again. This is easier. What are you good at besides what you do for a living? Oh that's a good question. Tart. Cards apparently.

Yes that's hard. That's you're the first person who say they have four decks and all that. Yeah what else secret talent? I'm really good at yoga. Okay. I really got into it last tour because I was really stressed and now I'm really good and I can like do tricks and stuff. You like you sky tang Adrian like who's your or you got a life yeah yeah yeah yeah I do love you're with Adrian. No I do the thing where you like hold yourself on the hands and and

your legs you're jumping now that's pretty dancing. I didn't see you video. I can I don't I don't know if I can do that quite yeah I grow a can dream grow a can dream.

“Yeah I love that oh my god. You know I think I'm a good friend. Damn.”

I think I'm a good friend. I think I'm a good friend. It's really good friend. Dan you really just rewrote the question at the time unbelievable. It's like in a job interview and then what's your greatest experience with you like I work too high now. Have you ever had a habit of

being a good friend? No I've never had like a regular job which is that you've had auditions.

Yeah I just had auditions. I think I'm a good friend. Wow. I couldn't even anticipate that it's really good. All right two more cards and I'm only the deranged snack

You read your own DMs. Do I read my own DMs? Yeah. Yes I do. I do. You go into the extra mailboxes. You go into the second and the third one. Do you see what the action is? I'm going to like the verified. But you do. You read you don't the team's not. It's not outsourced to the team.

“Yeah you read the password. You read the DMs. Did you know native?”

Yeah yeah I was born to 2003. Like I know myself. Yeah. Do you find it to be overwhelming? That people have that right especially you know so much going on people have direct access to you. Like do you wish to do you like ever brick your phone? Do you ever like put it under the couch and be like not for two hours. Yeah. I believe Instagram and TikTok off of my phone all the time.

Oh yeah. I'm like never on Twitter or like read it or any of that stuff that's scary.

Sure. But um I just deleted all the time. But it's hard. It really is tough. It's the social media addiction. It really is real. And it like fragments my days and fragments my intentions ban and like it's it's really not good. Yeah. All right. I'm addicted to pull a Markard. Yeah. Okay. Ten Alley. Okay. Ten of Glovers. All right. Is that a poker hand? Is that like not quite. Okay. Okay. This is a good one.

This is also it's in between series and light. When's the last time something did not go your way career wise and how did you cope with it? Oh yeah. I don't like talking about

“that one things don't go well. I'm just glossing over and I think that no one notices.”

You can talk about the cope first. You know, I've made so many

mistakes or things I look back and I'm like, oh God, that was so not me or like whatever. But I really do think I'm not even like having a cop out answer. I think that when you look back at any artist career, I think like the cream really rises at the top. You know, and you know, like you don't all of my favorite artists have put out bad songs or like done things that are like not great or whatever. It's saying a bad note or whatever. I think I think

pound for pound. I'm like proud of my work. And so I think at the end of the day that's that's hopefully what people will remember. It's funny you say it because sometimes I feel like when I get flagged for being a critic and they're like, how could you say a negative thing about blank? And I say to them, I'm like, who's your favorite artist? And they'll say whoever it is. And I'm like, every song they've ever made is perfect. You know, true. Every song you like does a 10-year-old,

you still love? No. You have all these like touch-point like we're all critics. Everybody views the world, Ella. And so yeah, I think that's the exact right way to think about this kind of thing. It's like, and I think like my mistakes in the past have like led me to where I am now. And like nothing teaches you who you are better than doing something that's like, oh, that felt really bad. You know what I mean? Like that really informs everything they do after that. And so I'm like,

I'm happy to have made mistakes and like done things that are maybe a cranger made a song that wasn't that good. Like it happens. And it's all part of a cool life. And you're less self-conscious about that stuff now than what I've been, you know, a sour era. Yeah, I think also I mean, my last year record that I was like, I mean, I was like 17 and 19. So I'm like, no, it's like, I did the best of what I could at the time. And like with the people that I had around me at the time.

And so yeah, I don't know. I used to beat myself up over stuff a lot, and they used to be really really harsh. And like something I think shifted in me a little bit around like, how awesome that I get to make music and like feel connected to other people and make music for this that I think

“are cool and like talk about things that are important to me. Like, that's awesome. Like, I think”

coming at that from a place of joy is just the only way you can really do it. Because it's like, yeah, that's awesome. Not music is awesome. It's a good to get a genuine gift that we

animates our lives. But all that. No, like one thing I've always appreciated about you is that you've

been so forthcoming about your influences and people who are here and what what you're trying to live up to and not all artists are like that. Some people are very stingy with giving credit or citing influence. And I think you've remained openhearted about that, but it's come back to bite you a couple times in terms of songwriting credits or album covers or people trying to call you out for borrowing or whatever it is, borrowing a little too much. However, you push through that,

those what I assume were pretty hard times in your creative vision being called into question, and how do you remain open with what it is that inspires you when stuff like that has happened. Yeah, it's a really hard time, like just personally, but I don't know what, I'm a fan girl, I love music and like nobody can like take that away. I love music and I feel so lucky that

awesome music and awesome bands and like I truly just do feel so lucky and I love writing songs

and like that's just I'll I would be writing songs if nobody listened and everyone hated it and everyone thought I was bad I would still be writing songs because it's what I like love to do.

“But I think that you call yourself a fan girl because I feel like some artists especially at your”

level are shamed to identify themselves that way. We gotta be a fan, what's it's so boring, not be a fan of music, there's so much good music to be a fan of, yeah. And it's like put you weave it into your songwriting, but you know, it's like the act of being enthusiastic about music is often in your songs of proxy for the act of being enthusiastic about a person. I mean, I think to Joe's point, like I do think people wonder those things that were tough for you early in your career did that

leave a frost between you and other songwriters, is there a frost between you and Taylor? Like is that something that covers over your mind? Is it something that you think is a construction of the people who are doing internet detective work? How do you view that now that you're a few years removed from the initial, the initial kind of like ruptures? I don't know, I think I tried to not let it get to me or upset me. I think I just tried to keep it trucking. I think there's no

it was so long ago. There's no use in like having on it and yeah, I just try to make songs that

I love and try to be kind and good to other people and supportive of other people and I've always

“tried to be like that and at the end of the day, I think that's all you can do. And being supportive”

is like again, you know, I was looking at the opening act list for your tour and I was like, this is like a very wide range of styles of artists, but also it's like you're identifying people who you want to take on your wing a little bit maybe. Yeah, I mean, I'm just like huge fans of all the people that are opening for me. I like and friends too and so yeah, I don't know. I mean, I could sit here and be like, yeah, give them advice and both of them, but I feel like we're all

just flying by the seat of our pants and I'll just like taking what comes, when it comes and yeah, yeah, and people always would tell to ask me that, I was like, we're giving

travel advice and like, blah, blah, and I'm like, like, she's giving me advice. Like it's like,

we're all just like figuring it out as it comes. Well, it's in the judgment like, yeah, you've done this, but it's probably you've done that. To the finger, I think it's cool that you've done that backwards and forwards. You've taken the breeders out on the road, you know, you've put on your heroes and given them an entryway to a new audience and you've done it with up-and-coming act. So if you want that's been important. Yeah, I mean, it's kind of calculated like,

oh god, you're going to look cool. There's nothing like that. I just like love all those bands and love all those artists and I'm like so stoked that I get to be around them and hear them play. The breeders thing definitely felt radical. I remember just when that announced it came out, I was just like, why don't more people do this like such an obvious idea? Yeah.

“In terms of life. Like show your lineage. Yeah, that's what I'm like in your presenting. Also,”

especially with you with such a like a young and open-eared fan base, like what you're saying to them is like, hey, if you like me, it's actually a whole, yeah. It's a whole universe behind me. For sure. That's been a lot of people don't do that because I think people are anxious. I truly think people are anxious that life. That's what I was getting about. Yeah, that they're going to show too many other something to a fan and they're going to be like, oh, actually, I like, it's like that. And that's

why, you know, that people have very young artists opening them. I mean, there's a bunch of business reasons, of course, as well. But like the idea that you as a established performer, like what I would actually like to show you is something that was meaningful to me. And that actually makes the whole show kind of an Olivia show because you're like, since Olivia, this is what made me this is what made me. And then you get to listen to that. And then you get to listen to me. And you get to actually

draw the lines. And I think that's more people should do that genuinely a smart and underutilized moves. No, for real. Stack time. This is, I, I, we're all eating this. Oh, yeah, we have this. We are all eating this, it's so fun to say. Every episode of Popcast ends with a snack, Olivia Rodrigo locked over to our snack table and picked these hers long hots. Sharp, it's probably known. This is a Philly classic got from Wawa last weekend. And then this left over dip that I brought

to our Super Bowl. Hey, I'm sorry. Wait, I'm sorry. Wait, I'm sorry. This is shelf stable. Shouldn't be in a fridge? Should it be in a fridge? Okay, I was like, you know, it came from the shelf. Okay. Can you just look into it before you subject our body? Oh, I got to eat this. I'm sorry. I have to take a sandwich. I have to take a sandwich.

It's expired. Oh, shit. I'm sure it's not. I just think this really goes bad. I don't believe

in expiration dates, but I will not make you. I can't say if I've ever had like dip on the shelf before. Oh, I love a French onion dip in a can of a shelf, no refrigeration. That's like one of your parents. You would think so. They figured it out. Look, I'm not going to let you eat this. This is the last three ranch all in your flavor. It smells, it smells like it should in my opinion. Yeah, smells like Taco Bell. Smells like Taco Bell. Oh, my God. It doesn't smell bad,

but I'm not going to make you. I'm not going to make you eat it. I'm not going to make either of you eat it. I might try it. And if I end up in the hospital, you guys will say, really, well, this is this should, we should have. We should have had a pie tomorrow. We did it and everything was happening on the bed. I was the most here as a distraction, but you're a sicko. Yeah, that's absolutely nuts. That everything on the... Korean snacks, Japanese snacks,

British snacks. I got the Korean snacks, and this is the flavor of life. We'll fill these crunch off, champion flavor, long hots and sharp provolone. Wow. Shout out Zach Barron, Filly King, Carrie Baton, Carrie Baton, Pixel Vester. We got a lot of Filly in our eyes. Yeah. Joelle and B. You did your best. Thank you for what you did to the Celtic. Mike Schmidt. Oh, that's a great smell. That was a great smell. That's a great smell. That's a

done nothing I've ever tasted to be honest. Now, let's just like a peanut. They'll peanut shell. Oh wow. Oh, horror. Horror. Horror. Horror. Interesting. A lot of depth of flavor and the spice comes all the way at the end. This would be really good with a sub sandwich though. I understand. Wow. Wow, cheese steak, and some of these long hots and sharp provolone flavor. Cheese steak, spring crunch from up, sprinkle one in the cheese steak. Okay, I love these. I still understand what

this is. Cheese and hot pepper flavor chip is straight out of my brain. Got to make it happen.

“You want some more? Yeah, I do. I go in. I do. Really good. Two spicy for you, John?”

No, it's actually quite right. Are you anti-spice? Yeah, I have a very tender stomach regrettably. It's hitting in just the right way. Like it's just the right amount of pepper or whatever it is right the back. Guys, I've had such a good time. Oh my god. I'm going to visit you in the house. Oh my god. Oh, I'm going to try this dip. I'm going to try this dip. Yeah, actually I'm going to pop cast. It's bent side at the hospital. Is it good? Do you know your wild eggs fresh? You're actually

wild eggs fresh. That is been your for your mom's. The entirety of pop cast. That's sat there. I'm going to let you out. Do you have anything that you want to say to Joe before he goes away? Yeah, I'll put things worth. Let's rank these chips. What do you got out of ten? I'm coming back for more. I feel like you're mixed in the in the facial reaction, but

“I'm just going back. I can't decide if I like it or not. I think that's why I keep coming back.”

It's moving in a lot of directions. Yeah, I can't really place it. But I'm just like style and dressing tasting. It's spicy. Right, but it's in sort of like in sequence. Yeah. Or like it's kind of like mealy. And then it's like, oh, it's punctuous. And then you're like, oh, it's sharp. And then you kind of love a herds. It was a lot in general, though. I feel like the hers ridges are really strong. Yeah, I've shouted out. I think one of my favorite chips all time. Or the herds catch up.

Catch up flavor is extremely good. Hard to find. But this is, I don't know. You go first.

Give it a hard six. Wow. Okay. But it's like a six. Like is it a good six? Like six trending upwards or six kind of like I'm just trying to be nice. No, like so it's just living right there. Okay. Six. I'm going to say it's an eat. Wow. And I'm going to say it's a the only thing that's not working for me is and I will say this is a hers chip and maybe even a lace chip problem to me the kind of when you crunch it, the immediate mealiness of the potato, you feel it's like

it has a thinness to it. It's not quite a full crunch. It's not quite cooked. Yeah, I want something where I'm really like not fighting it, but there's a heft to it. And I feel like the hers like they dissipate extremely quickly. Once you start chewing them and then all of a sudden you just left a layer of spice. And so that's the only part that's not working. But it is a, it was an adventurous

“rat. It was. It really was like zigzag left right up down like it's a cool chip. I think I'm not”

food science. I think I'm a seven and a half. Okay. I wish it was spicier. I wish I had a sandwich. I wish I had a sandwich. It was a sandwich and be a nut. It's a great side. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It can't

exist on it, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. For sure. Oh, you're Andrea. First of all,

you here. Thank you so much for coming. For months, years even. John has been saying,

“we'll see you next week. This time, I mean it. Every episode of popgast is at nlightimes.com/popgast.”

Like and subscribe on YouTube. Follow us on TikTok and Instagram. Follow us to the

elevator on Rigo tour. We'll be back in next week.

“I'm Gilbert Cruz. This week on the book review podcast, our monthly book club meets to talk”

about Ben Learner's new novel Transcription. It's really, really hard. His 2014 book made the

times as best 100 books in the 21st century list. So whenever Ben Learner puts out something new,

“it's an event and it's something that needs to be discussed. We could talk about this book all”

day. It's kind of- Listen to the book review wherever you get your podcasts.