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Things that I never would've thought to turn to a news app for.
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Oh, just not just testing. Let's take a look at what I got some people going in. From New York Times, I'm like a babaro. Hello. This is The Daily.
They're here today. They're here. They're amazing. They're amazing. A few days ago, my colleague, political correspondent Michael Cruz,
traveled to Michigan with two producers from the Daily. Austa-Chothervady and Anna Folny, to report on the most closely watched democratic primary of the year. A lot going to Michigan. A race for U.S. Senate that not only tests the growing appeal
of left-wing populism, but could also mark a turning point in a long running debate among democratic voters about the importance of electability.
“How many of you are going to vote on Tuesday, August 4th?”
Yeah. It is Tuesday, August 4th. So Michael Cruz, happy to have you on the Daily, I believe this is your first time on the show. It is, long time listener, first time caller, happy to be here. Well, I'm a long time admirer, so I'm glad to have you.
You just got back from a reporting trip to Michigan with two producers from the Daily. And I wanted to start by asking you to explain why in your mind, the democratic primary that's happening today in Michigan is such an important moment in this long running battle over the future of the democratic party.
It is today the most important moment in this whole midterm cycle
when we are thinking about the question of what the democratic party is and where it is headed. Because I think in Michigan we have the purest test yet of whether a progressive vision of the democratic party can succeed in American politics.
“In the last year or so, we've seen compelling progressive victories,”
but in a certain kind of place in blue places, Zorin Mamdania, New York, congressional primaries in Philadelphia and Denver. Grand Plattener felt a little bit like a test case, but his scandals, the way his campaign ended, hard to sort of extrapolate grand conclusions from Maine.
So here in Michigan we have a race that feels like a much better truer test of this fight between progressives and moderates. And that's because Michael, this race is happening in a swing state in the middle of the country, Trump won here in 2016 and 2024. And if the progressive candidate wins this election in Michigan,
it would really reorient our understanding of the progressive movements appeal in our politics at this point in time. Right, and just to put a really fine point on it, it would show that in places that we think of is inherently moderate. Democratic primary voters are ready to lurch meaningfully to the left.
And of course, this test case or describing is happening any race where the stakes are already quite high, just based on the math of the United States Senate. Right, this is a Senate seat that Democrats almost have to hold if they have any shot of flipping the Senate. And whichever Democrat wins on Tuesday has a formidable challenger come
November because my graduate, the Republican waiting for one of these two candidates, ran for Michigan's other Senate seat two years ago and lost by not even 20,000 boats to elicit slotkin, very much a more centrist, more moderate Democrat.
So the question of who comes out of this primary is critical for Democrats hopes this year.
So introduce us to the two candidates who embody this latest chapter of that long running clash between the incrementalists, the moderates and the
Progressives who would like to bust it all up.
So the more progressive candidate is Abdul El Sayed.
“I'm running for U.S. Senate because in the state that built the American dream”
it shouldn't be this hard just to get by. He's 41 years old, a former gubernatorial candidate in 2018 former public health official. I grew up all American here. He became a doctor to help people and spent my career making government deliver for us. He is running on Medicare for all anti-Israel platform
wants to cut aid to Israel's efforts in Gaza. He does keep that tax pair of money here to invest in public infrastructure public schools. The disease is the corruption of our politics by billionaires and corporations. It's worth noting though that he does not call himself a socialist.
“He's not a member of the DSA, the Democratic Socialists of America, even though”
he's endorsed by key socialist political figures like Bernie Sanders and Alexandria Ocasio Cortez. So that's his platform. But the way his vibe reads is not, say, the stereotypical leftiers. And yeah, I'm a bro with a podcast to dig into the epidemics of America's face.
He's quite conventionally charismatic. One of his aides in one of our conversations described him to me as muslim Bruce Springsteen. He lifts weights in his gym in his basement. I spent some time down there earlier this summer working on a profile, watching him do squats and pull-ups.
“He is not the picture of the nerdy socialist that I think some critics might have.”
I'm Dr. Abdul Alseid and I'm running for U.S. Senate. Let's go. So tell us about his opponent in this Democratic primary. His opponent is Haley Stevens.
I remember being handed the keys to my first call.
I'm Haley Stevens and I bet you do, too. A moderate, four-term member of Congress. She is 43 years old, so similarly aged. But much more of an old school type of politician. His chief is staffed to President Obama's auto rescue.
We help save over 200,000 Michigan jobs and stabilize our com. She has worked in various presidential administrations or campaigns. Her basic pitch is I'm a legislative workhorse, not a showhorse. Incremental changes to health care, age should continue to support Israel. She is by far and away the most apex-supported candidate, not only in this race, but in any race ever.
Wow, she is the pick of the Democratic establishment. Growing up in Michigan, met being surrounded by innovation, ingenuity, and pride in her work. And she makes the case that she is made in Michigan, the classic Michiganer. Abdul Elsaid was born in bread in Michigan, too. But she has this folksy, almost zany way about her.
I'm proud of Michigan and I'll never get tired of saying it.
It would be my honor to fight for you in the Senate. So with all that in mind, Michael, tell us about the time that you spent with both of these candidates and campaigns when you were in Michigan. So we went to Lansing, the state capital, pretty blue, especially in the part of Lansing. We were in to watch Elsaid whip up his supporters to go knock on doors around that area.
All right, y'all, money out of? Money in Europe? He came out on the stage and did what he always does with his events. Started with a chant of sorts, a call in response. You talked about how politicians elected officials need to respond to their constituents more than their donors.
We had no business fighting in the first place. We can keep our money here and start investing in healthcare and basic services here.
It sounds like what he's really tapping into here is a profound disaffection ...
No question. We're out for the UAW. I'm an ascetician, so I'm a student, but I work at a daycare.
“The people we talk to at the event, why are you team Abdul?”
Every day Americans are not being heard and represented by their government. They talk about a real disaffection with politics as usual. Money out of politics, a pack, you know, it's obscene how our money is spent in. Not being able to live the same lives that their parents did.
I graduated high school in 2020, so basically as long as I can remember, things have been getting significantly worse.
Can't afford their rent, can't afford health care. This is not the future I want for my kids. And a sense that Democrats are very much part of the problem too. Everybody's sick of this nonsense that we get every election cycle that we just have to go for the middle of the road, moderate, boring, bland candidate that doesn't stand for anything.
And so now, why vote for the same old kind of Democrat that they've voted for before? At the end of the day, I don't want crumbs, like I just want health care. What does it like when this room full of volunteers then heads out and attempts to make this pitch to voters and lancing? Hi. So we ended up tagging along with a volunteer named Mary.
I couldn't help but notice your vote for Abdul Bracelet. I've got my friendship, Bracelet was finally there. White woman 70s retired.
She had been a school teacher.
She had been a lobbyist for the United Auto Workers Union. She's been active in Democratic politics for decades. It's very early. When I went to the nudist colony to talk about health care story. Wow.
“I did. What I did? I think you got it. She talked to us about efforts at health care reform in the 90s led by then first lady.”
Hillary Clinton when Bill Clinton was the president. And this guy's like, "You come talk about health care. When do you pitch them?" Sorry, were they wearing clothes? No. But now...
The money and politics thing is the thing that just sticks with me.
And the need for new ideas and new people.
I think has felt really let down by Democrats that she voted for. That she knocked on doors for. It's like a sports team. You don't change the players. You're going to get the same result. And now is so much a supporter of El Sayed that she knocks on door after door after door around Michigan on his behalf.
She sees the thing that in her mind all these previous Democratic campaigns and even elected officials have failed to deliver. Correct. Which is why I'm out here, "Bush to my ass." I'm like, "This is the hell I'm going to die on. This is the one." So here we go.
“And how did it go for Mary when she's knocking on these doors?”
So... So we're going to start over here? We were in kind of the suburban outskirts of Lansing. We're here. Hi. How are you?
Good. How are you? Good. Good. Good. Good. Good. My name is Mary. I'm a canvaser for these candidates. Do you think we can come in your support? Oh yeah, I've actually sent it.
I have sent it out. That's the one. Okay. Many of the doors she knocked on were already El Sayed supporters. I know.
Are you on board, too? Yes. Okay. Good. He's my husband. I know. Trust me.
To be quite frank. Please. I'm not a big Bernie supporter. Okay. We did encounter though some people who are more skeptical.
What I'm seeing with the Democrats is... A lot of them are going further and left than they used to be. Like, they're woken, words like "woken" words like "socialists". So I'm not really sure what's going on. For instance, this guy, John, former Republican voter
at this point wants Democrats to take control, not sure though what kind of Democrat that should be. Well, these are progressive candidates.
They both have been endorsed by Bernie Sanders.
You'll see that on their left.
I like Bernie, but he scares me a little bit too. He's got a lot of ideas, but I don't know how he expects all those things to be funded.
“What about Haley Stevens, what's your opinion on her?”
Haley Stevens campaign. She's taken all kinds of corporate money. She's getting all kinds of money from APAC. He wanted to know more about Haley Stevens, and he wanted to know...
What's that? It was more likely to beat the Republicans. Who would have the better chance to beat the Republican and come November after this primary? He's invoking that classic Democratic concept of electability
that has dominated Democratic politics. You could argue for quite some time. All the way back to Hillary Clinton 2016, Joe Biden 2020, and it sounds like is still a factor for a certain kind of Democratic voter in 2026.
It's supercharged by the specter of Donald Trump, and Republicans who have his backing.
“Who can beat Donald Trump and these kinds of Republicans?”
What is the right kind of Democrat? The conventional way of thinking about electability for Democrat, for as long as most people can remember, has been the more centrist, more moderate candidate, is the more electable candidate.
So what is Mary, as you're standing with her, say to that electability question that I would like John as asking? Mary's argument in essence is that this is a different moment. Because of the change people want, and they won't appeal. A sort of moment that requires a different kind of voting,
vote for the change candidate because this is a change election. >> Abdul is polling at 80 plus percent in the 18 to 44-year demographic. If not this year by 2028, it's going to be the biggest voting block in this country. >> If they'll vote. >> If they'll vote.
>> Absolutely, but there's a lot of enthusiasm.
“And I think that the Democratic Party is looking at its future.”
It's got to take that into consideration. >> And in that sense, she's arguing. I'll say it is electable. >> But is electable because the electability question itself has changed. Because of where we've gotten to in politics.
Because of the sense that voters across the political spectrum feel like politics is unresponsive. It's so irreparably broken that we need to do something so very different. And the different candidate here, and therefore perhaps actually the more electable candidate is Abdul El Said rather than the moderate. >> And I can't guarantee which way I'm going to go.
I was kind of leaning towards Stephens, but one thing I can tell you for sure, I don't know who I'm going to vote for. >> Honestly, but it's not going to be a Republican. >> Well, it makes me feel better about November, but I'm hoping you'll be with us when you actually fill it out.
>> But most of all, I appreciate you. >> And that's the question here in Michigan. Does electability at this point mean something different?
Or does it mean what it's always meant that the candidate more like Haley Stevens is,
in fact, the most electable candidate. [ Music ] >> We'll do it back. >> The New York Times app unlocked. Everyone knows the times is behind a paywall.
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[ Music ] >> So Michael, you next spend time with the campaign of Congresswoman Haley Stevens, the moderator in this race, the traditionally electable candidate in a race like this. >> Right. We went to see Haley Stevens canvas kickoff in a suburb of Lansing called Oakamus.
Could not have been more different than the L.S.E. event. First of all, it wasn't a rally at all.
It was at a supporters house. >> Well, I could get some water in a bathroom, so you know, I got it all going on.
>> It was barely more than a dozen people.
There were more reporters and staffers there than door knockers.
>> Huh, she stepped out of her black SUV and a staffer started a Haley chant. [ Music ] >> And she did her version of retail politics. >> We got some big time people here, like the blue brigade. >> There is no character in politics quite like Haley Stevens.
>> You know what, this argument of ideas, you know, to have real debates,
“not just on the twit, I call it the twit, that's what I call it.”
>> Just a corny language. >> I'm going to stick it to him. >> All right. >> Her mischagander accent, the way she interacts with people, is its own kind of endearing.
I think she understands that she is this way and embraces it. And she went into her pitch. >> We need honest, dedicated, public service. >> I'm the workhorse working for you in the halls of Congress. >> What about lowering the cost of groceries?
I actually have a piece of legislation on that. >> All of which landed on. >> We're going to win begging November. Absolutely, and I mean, and we're going to win, I'm going to beat my graduates.
>> I'm the candidate who can beat my graduates and her proof. >> There certainly has been consistent evidence that the Republicans, while running against the dole, my graduates lead to a phone call to that tune. >> My graduates essentially says so himself. >> He thinks it makes it easier for him to win.
He says that he would rather run against El Said than against her. >> So electability is explicitly Hayley Stevens argument. So much so that she says, "Look, my own Republican rival thinks that I'm the most electable fears me the most." >> Right.
>> I'm going to make sure that we are heard in the halls of power. And I'm going to make damn sure. Then my graduates goes back to Florida. >> Thank you. >> So after Seema's made a remarks, we all split up.
>> She said, "Hi. One of the daily producers I was with." And she spent a bunch of time with two door knockers. >> And have you been in Michigan your whole life? >> No.
>> But I've been here 50 years. >> There was Alyssa. >> I'm really proud to be a Michiganer. >> She's a former librarian, originally moved to Lansing for grad school. Never left.
>> Okay, so you're going to drive? >> Yes. >> She was joined by Marie. >> A Chevy, very classic Michigan. >> She's a former elections clerk.
>> I retired and I became a precinct chair. >> You said I'm not done. I got more elections than me. >> Who just can't quit politics?
“>> Can you tell me what you like about congresswoman Stevens?”
>> I just like her record. What she's done and I feel like her moving from the house to the senate. She's just going to be ready to run. And we love her accent. >> Alyssa and Marie had knocked on doors before.
But this was their first time canvassing for Stevens.
>> So we've got two on this side, two on this side. >> They got to a neighborhood about five minutes away from the Stevens event. Just a couple hours before it got dark. They were dropping off a lot of flyers because a lot of people weren't home or weren't answering.
The people they did talk to though seemed fairly Steven's friendly. Including an older black man named Julius who didn't answer his door, but did talk through his door-wheel video camera. It's very modern. >> Have you heard of her?
>> Oh yes. >> Have you voted yet? >> Not yet. >> Oh terrific. Thank you so much.
>> Julius was a fan of Stevens. He was actually so on board that he said, Alyssa and Marie could put a Steven sign in his yard. >> I mean, that's like, you know, when you're commissioning that. So I think if you could get a sign.
>> And after Alyssa and Marie were done.
>> And this is my first interview I've ever done
through a ring doorbell. >> And to stay back and ask Julius a few more questions about why he was interested in Stevens.
“>> But she worked on some very important issues with Obama.”
And that itself was selling important. >> Your fan of his. >> He was familiar with her work years ago for the administration of Barack Obama. Obama has endorsed Stevens, but there's an association that I think
Still matters to a certain kind of Democrat in Michigan.
>> And I think that governor is endorsed her.
>> He was familiar with the people who've endorsed her. >> That's the governor. >> Gretchen Whitmer, the governor. Gary Peters, the senator she's trying to replace. These establishment endorsements that are abonus.
A sign of electability for Julius.
“>> So did you ever consider any of the other candidates?”
Did you ever consider Abdul? >> Yes, I've considered Abdul. I'm thinking about who will have the best chances of winning the election. >> The general. >> Yes.
>> It sounds like Julius is the kind of voter that the Stevens campaign is
bending backwards to get.
He's appealed to by the very establishment credentials that she presents as we're calling cards in this campaign. >> No question. >> Her core constituency is traditional Democratic-based voters. Black voters, older voters, perhaps more moderate who still see themselves as
more moderate. A much more pragmatic Democrat without them she cannot win. >> I think it's time to stop. >> I agree. >> So Elisa and Marie wrapped up.
They were ready to go home. But before we all left we talked to them a little bit more. >> How do you feel about the APAC money?
Oh, I don't feel great about it.
Do I wish that she wasn't taking that money? Yes. What I wish we could do is stop with the purity test.
“Because I think both sides are absolutely guilty of it.”
>> It was interesting even as they knocked on doors for Stevens. >> Marie did have some reservations about all the APAC money. >> We've got this role. Skism between the so-called establishment Democrats and democratic socialists.
And I find that to be a bummer because I support everything that a progressive would support. I support the platform, but somehow another I feel like I'm relegated to a poor clutching baby bummer. But what I don't think I am.
If you support, you know, like you're saying, like a more progressive agenda. How does that lead you to, you know, someone who is a little bit more moderate? >> I think it takes a lot of people to get stuff done. It's great to have all, you know, lofty ideals. We all have them, but to really get stuff done at impacts people every day.
We got to have some bipartisan chip.
“>> But Marie said at the end of the day, we need someone who can win.”
Someone who can get things done in Washington. >> It is important. Electability is important. She has the best chance to be my graduates. >> And Marie and Alyssa both still see her as the more
electrical candidate, then Elsaid. >> Well, thank you so much for being so open. >> Yeah, of course. >> It's striking to me that even a volunteer, door knocker for Steven's like Marie, who's giving up pretty
meaningful amounts of her time to do this work, is very freely telling you that she sees Steven's as imperfect, but electable enough, and I guess what she really means is electable against her Republican in the general. >> Exactly.
She's thinking about November more than she's thinking about August. >> So Michael, you're describing what feels pretty evidently like an enthusiasm gap between these two events and between these two candidates. What is the polling at this point right on the heels of the
primary telling us about who's most likely to win? >> The polls say that he's leading, and of late over the last couple weeks, the polls say he's pulling away his margin in a number of these most recent surveys are in double digits.
>> Interesting. >> These are polls. Polls aren't votes. Polls can be fallible as we've seen over the years. But, especially of late, polls show the moment
with LCA more than Steven's. >> I have to think Michael that somewhat consistent and now at the end of this race growing lead for LCA is telling us something about the chances of progressivism in a purple steep, and also something about this big question of electability.
>> Totally, and here's the thing, if we take polls at face
value, it feels like democratic voters in Michigan are
“ready to challenge this conventional notion that the more”
moderate candidate is by definition, the more electable candidate. And we had a fascinating series of conversations with some voters about just this shift or potential shift in a place called Manesty, which is the western part of the state far more
north in the state, unlike Michigan. >> So when we got to the office of the democratic party of Manesty County. >> You're ringing up dual percentage, I didn't see that. >> Absolutely, so.
There was no shortage of LCA. Flyers, buttons, political paraphernalia signs of support for
LCA, nothing for Steven's.
>> Does the Manesty Dems matter? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Come on, send that page so they can see your pause. >> There was even a poodle named Hazel.
>> His blue pause. >> And she was wearing an LCA shirt. >> Amazing. >> Hazel's for a little surprising, because we were in a Republican county, a county that is a Trump county, granted
we were in a small city, and a blue municipality, but still. Not a place where I expected to see so much support for the more progressive of the two Democrats running in this primary.
We wanted to watch people watch a debate between Steven's and
El Said and talked to them about what they made of the debate. >> So after we watched them watch the debate, I ended up asking them how they were feeling, and electability definitely came up.
“When people talk about electability, what does it mean?”
To you, what makes a candidate more electable? >> I think it means more politically connected. That's usually what that sounds like to me. And that's like, I don't care about that. It's who's got a point.
Who do I want to lead for me? Not who is electable? That's what I think. >> I feel the opposite. >> I feel that electability is everything, because if we don't take the
Senate, much less a house, we're screwed. >> Some of them had this question of electability still front of mind. But some of them had decided that there's some extent to help with electability. >> I've heard of people who go to the polls, and they vote for someone, because
then the person can't get elected. Well, aren't we like chopping ourselves off of the knees, because if we're assuming someone can't get elected, then we're going to vote for the person that maybe we don't think will be the best one. We're selling our sub-short, and we're selling everyone else in the
Michigan short. We're thinking that we know what other people think. And we don't know. >> What was so interesting was listening to them, get to a place where they're not going to try to play this electability,
3D chess, and send the person they think can win in November. They're going to pick the person who is speaking to them the most, and let the chips fall in the general. >> Which of these candidates do think your neighbors, your neighbors, non-voting neighbors, maybe even Republican
neighbors, are more likely to vote for up to all say they're Hayley's students? >> Probably Hayley. If their Republicans are coming over, they're probably going to vote for the Republican in sheep's clothing.
>> I mean, some of them even acknowledge that some of their Republican neighbors in Manesty County, some of the more centrist independence they know, might not vote for El Sayed Commodore Vembers. Should he make it through the primary?
“>> But then don't you have to keep the Senate seat?”
So how do you feel about that, given that? >> I'm willing to take my chances for a guy that I think honestly has our best interest in her. >> But that, at least this time around, would not determine the decision they themselves may
in this primary. >> This is really interesting because these voters seem to be taking things a step further than Mary, that El Sayed volunteer, who you were telling us about earlier, what Mary was saying was that she thinks El Sayed
is electable.
What these voters are saying is different.
They're saying maybe he is electable, maybe he isn't.
“But either way, we're done even dealing with this”
electability question in the first place.
>> Right. And this crowd was thinking differently than they were thinking not that long ago in the last decade in how they decided where to put their vote. >> So, in fact, like I probably considered back,
you know, like Woody Sanders was running for a president way back. I thought he didn't have the electability. And now I wish to help, I would have bought it. >> We did hear from people who wanted to vote for
Bernie Sanders, but didn't.
And this year, in a way that felt pretty different and new
and distinct, they were just going to vote for El Sayed. Screw it. >> Donald Trump came in in 2016.
“He was not at all a middle ground candidate.”
But he spoke to people that hadn't voted in years. He wasn't trying to convert other Democrats. He was trying to bring new people into the process. And it worked. He won this county.
And Abdullah said, hey, we need to do something different. >> Back to 2016. All of the conventional wisdom up until election day. That said, surely, Donald Trump could not win. But clearly, enough Republicans made him their nominee in 2016.
And then just enough people in just enough places, the places that matter the most, made him the president. And perhaps Democrats find themselves now a decade later at a similar juncture. We'll be in touch. >> Thank you.
>> Thank you all so much. >> I love it. >> Thank you. >> It feels like what you and Austin and I really saw in Michigan was not just the latest test of whether Democrats want a progressive or
a moderate, but a genuinely new approach to this for Democrats. Anyway, agonizing question of electability. And that new mindset is that some of these Democrats who are now behind L.C.E. have decided to stop talking themselves out of picking the exciting disruptive candidate for fear that their Republican neighbors won't back them.
Instead, they're doing this more Republican thing in the Trump era. And they're just saying, we're going to follow our hearts. We're going to vote for the person we like and to hell with the consequences. >> Right, and maybe the consequences include you do get the person you actually want and want with your whole heart.
There is no shortage of voters across the political spectrum. Not just Republicans who are so angry at politics as usual at the system, but they're willing to just say, you know what? It's time for something different. It's time for something new.
It's time for the change candidate, even if we're being told that the change candidate is not the electable candidate. Maybe the change candidate is the electable candidate. Maybe electability is something totally new in 2026 on both sides of the political aisle.
>> Oh, my God. Thank you very much. >> Thank you. [ Music ] We'll be right back.
[ Music ]
“>> Here's what else you need to know today.”
After a rocky start to his confirmation process, President Trump's acting attorney general,
Todd Blanch, one over two crucial Republican holdouts in the U.S. Senate on Monday,
paving the way for Blanch to be confirmed by the full Senate as soon as this week. To play Kate Republican Senators Tom Tillis of North Carolina and John Cornin of Texas, Blanch provided written assurances of two actions. First, that he had killed off a fund to pay Trump allies who claimed they were unfairly prosecuted by the government.
And second, that Blanch had narrowed the scope of a deal to protect Trump, his family, and their businesses from the IRS.
The narrowed IRS deal still prevents the IRS from auditing the previous tax r...
of Trump, his two oldest sons, and the Trump organization.
“An unprecedented act of self-dealing by the president.”
And health officials have reported two deaths linked to the parasite cyclospora,
which is spread through food contaminated with human feces.
Both of the deaths involved people in Michigan with significant underlying health conditions.
“The deaths come amid the worst outbreak of the parasite in U.S. history.”
Health officials have confirmed or are investigating more than 18,000 infections across 45 states.
Today's episode was produced by Astha Chottervady, Anna Fulley, Eric Krupke, and Claire Tenisgetter. It was edited by Rob Zipko and Rachel Kruster, and contains music by Mary Elizana, Alicia By YouTube, and Pat McCusker. Our theme music is by Wanderley. This episode was engineered by Alyssa Moxley. That's it for the day, I'm Mike of a Barrel.
See you tomorrow. And this week on the Book Review podcast, Book Club is back. We are discussing Douglas Stewart's John of John. This is not a spoiler, I promise, but Cal is gay and so is John. Everybody knows each other's business, everybody has an opinion about each other's business,
“and everybody has a secret. Everybody has a secret. Everybody has a secret.”
Everybody's hair is full of secret. Listen to the Book Review wherever you get your podcasts.
