My Husband Refuses to Let Things Go

>> So we, I guess it's something like a hoarder say that.

But we're not letting go of something fully, seems hard for him. >> He's got memories attached to things. He sees some sort of utility or possible. He's trying to solve a future problem with a current thing. >> Right?

>> What does declutter mean to you? [MUSIC] >> What's up? This is John with Dr. John Deloni's show. Coming to you from National Tennessee, taking your calls on everything.

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I'm getting direct messages and notes from people from all over the planet. Yes, we love to take your call and we will figure out a way to get you on. Let's go to Detroit Rock City and talk to Kimberley. What's up, Kimberley? Hi, Dr. John. How are you?

I'm doing great. It's 46 degrees of Michigan and I'm a male carrier, so I can't complain. How do we decutter our home together when we don't see eye to eye on it? What for the sake of our children is where I feel nervous in the future if we don't do something about it now. Okay, tell me what's going on. What's the thing beneath the thing? Well, I guess it sounds like a hoarder saying that, but we're not, it's just we have so much clutter in our home and things that we have collected from years of just a life and decuttering for him seems way more difficult than this for me.

I'm willing to throw out anything donate, get rid of it if I haven't used it, I want it gone and for him it's not the same way. He has a reason why we have to keep everything. Gotcha. How old are you guys? I'm 33 and he's 38.

How long have you all been married? Three years.

Is this the first marriage for both of you?

Yes. Okay, so you all had independent lives before you all got married. Right. Which meant you all had independent stuff and independent way of doing things and independent ways of coping with various anxieties and stressors and whatever. Right.

So backing out even further than the clutter. We'll get to the clutter because I got some pretty pretty concrete thoughts and some data based thoughts on clutter. Okay. Where are other places?

“Give me an example of another place where 27 year old marriage is a 35 year old and y'all have struggled and does have to be a bad struggle, right?”

But we're y'all are like trying to combine lives. I don't honestly, I don't think in other areas we struggled at all. It was everything combining like even when we talked about our childhoods. We were so everything was so similar. Like we met so well and so perfectly.

And I still think we do accept getting rid of clutter seems to be an issue. So tell me about this clutter. Is he a collector? Is he have a bunch of like Pokemon cards? Is he a prepper?

No. Is he like me? He's got stuff. Well, I, okay. So I'd say he's more of a prepper.

More of a. We might need this type of thing. Okay. So give me an example of some of the clutter. Okay.

So like the other week I bought a whole new set of pots and pans. Okay. Because all the other ones are bad. And instead of getting rid of all of the other ones. We have to keep a few.

Just in case, you know. It's like, no, no, no, why would we do that? But so then in our garage, we have a shelf with all these things that we're going to touch. But it takes up space. So it's nothing like extreme of like all that is a whole room full of this.

Because he collects this. It's just like letting go of something fully seems hard for him. Okay.

“And when you've talked to her about it, what does he say?”

Memory. So when I talk to him about it, he's open minded and we're both on the same page. And I'm not creative at organizing it and that's part of the problem here. But when it comes down to executing where the things. It's like the space still isn't empty and we don't have.

It's like we're not decluttering the way he thinks we are.

So let's reverse this.

So he doesn't want to get rid of stuff.

He's got memories attached to things. He sees some sort of utility or possible. He's trying to solve a future problem with a current thing. Right. What does declutter mean to you?

I feel like we, it would make cleaning the house. Wait, you're here. No, no, I'm asking. No, I'm asking. I want you to give him.

And so I want you to give me. But you're actually talking to him. What does a finish line?

“When would he be able to drop his shoulders and say?”

We are officially decluttered. Hmm. I guess when we have empty spaces so that we have room for our young family to continue growing in the house. Like actual, like a closet. Doesn't have to be packed just because we're living there right now.

There can be empty shelves. Because our kids are young. They're only going to bring more stuff in. And I feel like as of now, we don't have space to do that. So what if you're both trying to solve future problems in the present?

Yeah, that might be happening. You with the idea of an empty shelf and him with the idea of full closets just in case. Yeah, that's what's happening. Because when people say they want to declutter and this is me too. This is why Joshua Fields Milburn and the minimalist gang are close friends of mine.

Dawn Madsen of minimal mom. She's a close friend. Like what they do for people like me who have a natural bent towards handling anxiety. Future problems dragging them into the present. And I try to do that with stuff with being prepared.

Right? They help me. Unwind like you need this many shirts. This many pants. This is like they help me have a definition. Because sometimes people want to declutter because they just have too many clothes in the closet.

And I got it's it's unmanageable for me. It's anxiety inducing every morning trying to just sift through. Does this fit? Is this not to us to like this? Whatever. But some people want to declutter and the finish line just keeps moving.

Right?

Because we've never tried to we've never established what we're trying to get to.

Right. And I guess it's fair. We've we've never actually established that or talked about that. It's always just like let's get rid of things. And it's probably overwhelming for him. I would suggest I may be wrong, but I would suggest he's not on the phone.

But your idea of let's just get rid of all of it and he's like for what though. And you're like for empty shelf. Right. That might be as anxiety inducing as why are we keeping two of these pots and he's like just in case. And you're going for what?

Right. So when it comes to your kids, here's what I want to be very careful of. I'm assuming your kids are really young. Yeah, two and nine months. Okay.

Please do me this huge favor. Actually, you're not doing me a favor at all.

“Do you, your husband and your children this favor, okay?”

Okay. Don't make them the reason for addressing hard things that you and your husband need to work through.

We've always talked about decluttering so we've been together.

And now that the kids are here and young, they are the reason I keep pushing this. Okay. And I keep talking about it. So bring back that fear into the middle of your chest where you as the adult have the strength to carry it. Okay.

And ask yourself, have we created two people who love each other who are all game on? It sounds like you like this guy, which is awesome. Yeah, no, he's great. Okay. And it sounds like he likes you, right?

Yeah, that's amazing. Okay. So you got two awesome people here who are still like, we're just three years in to unpacking like the old lives that we had that were stable and good and whatever. And now we're trying to combine them. We've accidentally created an anxious house.

Right. And that could be everything from money to secrets to fitness and health to any, it's a work stress, any number of things. And it gets, it shows up over here. And what most people spend their lives doing is playing whack a mole with symptoms. I want to hang on to this.

“I want to empty shelf. I want to hang on to this. When really the core issue is, how do we anchor in deeply and create a very non anxious house?”

Which gives everybody the margin to say, you know what? I really think we need those pants someday, but fine, don't move away.

Right, because by the way, you're young kids.

They can only bring into the house what you allow them to bring in. Right. No, that's totally fair. That makes sense. Because that's the first thing he brought up when we were talking about it was there's so many toys. And because the toys don't bother me because they're just going to be everywhere right now. It's like the spaces that make for me cleaning the house feels way harder when it doesn't seem like everything has a home because

the classes are full of things that we don't even use. Like old sheets from Gam Gam, who made them years ago that we're still holding on to. Listen, Gam Gam sheets are real expensive. All right, so no, but what I just-- And that's something that I'm like, are you kidding? And then one day, this was the years ago, even.

He bagged those up and took them to his mom's house, which is fine, then on in my house.

“But what are they going to do there? Just collect dust?”

I know, but I've also been to the exercise I've talked about on the show before, where I just kept my granddad, who's one of my heroes gave me an old tweet jacket when he-- And I was working at the university. He gave me an old jacket. He was like, this looks like it.

I-- it never fit from the moment he handed it to me.

And I think I moved that to like seven different houses or five different houses. Before I went through, like, and it was a psychological unwinding. I literally had to say out loud to myself, my grandfather's not in this jacket. Right, right. And that was hard, right?

No, I could only do that when I was getting well and being honest about other things. So what I heard you just say is actually the thing beneath the thing beneath the thing, kind of leaked out. Oh, God, what was it? Do you think you live in a messy-- in a gross house? No, I don't think it's gross.

I think it's very clean. It's not organized. And that bothers me because I'm usually the primary person cleaning. Okay, so is any of this about shared responsibilities at your house? No. No, okay, awesome.

I don't think so.

“Is any of this about this pervasive sense that there's something that I haven't cleaned yet?”

Probably, that-- I mean, that bothers me because, yeah, yeah, it just feels like there's somewhat-- It's like, it gives me anxiety thinking about how much stuff we have that we don't even use. And what's the root of that anxiety? Is it that you have too much and there's needy people out there? Is it that you're not being good stewards of your money?

Like, what is the root of that anxiety? I mean, maybe that's part of it being good source of their money because I feel like even the stuff we hold on to. It's like, oh, we might need this one day. When that day comes, we can't really-- you don't know what you put it. You don't know what's box is in in the basement.

Something you're just buying something-- you know what I mean? It's like, you're not even using what you're holding onto because you're in a box and it's closet. And then now it's just sitting there in storage and I feel like if we're putting it away or saving it or holding onto it, we should just get rid of it or donate it. Because there's no reason to hold on to something, don't sit at what it's at there. Okay, so hanging on to things excessively to the point that they begin to pile up and over time,

like you mentioned hoarding is kind of the worst, like all the way down the outside the bell curve, right? We're not hoarders by any means.

“No, I know, but also if his mom is, or if his dad is, or his sister is, you can see where this is heading, right?”

He'll rest his thing on his mom's house is like empty. And maybe that's-- And maybe that's all that, right? Yeah. Maybe that's it.

Because I was thinking about this the other day. She has a living room that's literally empty. And then that passed away, we found old coffee cans that he had saved. Full of nails that he had straightened. Why?

Because he was born and raised during the Great Depression. Right. And so I can look at him and say, that's crazy. But his nervous system said, "We might run out of nails." Right?

And so if your husband grew up in a home where we have nothing. Right. It makes sense. It doesn't make it right, but it gives me a context that says, "Man, he's hanging on to stuff because he has been a kid,"

who said, "We have nothing, and I don't ever want my kids to feel that again." Right. And you may have gone up in a home where, clearly, this, if you're not clean, you're something wrong with you. Well, I'm making something up, right?

Right. But you might have this-- There was stuff my dad had deer heads and posters, and whatever on the wall, I want nothing on the wall. I need everything.

Here's what I'm getting at.

Fiting about the clean shell first, the not clean shell, and you aren't fighting, I know, but you'll have discussions. That ends up being a proxy war for. Here's what peace feels like for me. And tell me what peace feels like for you.

And it might be that you say, "I would feel loved away you can love me," is give me to completely empty closets.

Well, I know you would, but we're getting, like, and for my wife, John, I know you have tons of guitar stuff, and you have your old punk rock memorabilia, and you've got all your hunting gear, and your weird camel outfits, such as she calls them my outfits.

But they all stay in one place. Right. And she says, "I don't really go in there."

“And that's, again, some of that's just, like, that's how we make peace.”

But it is us getting to the core thing, which is, my wife really craves order, and I love her enough that I want to give her what she craves. Right.

And my wife knows she married a guy who's always looking

over the next hill to make sure his family's okay. And sometimes he looks over 19 hills ahead, and he makes up stories and tries to, but I love him. And so let's, let's come to that place. Right.

Right. But if she was always saying, "It's too cluttered, get rid of it, get rid of it. We just need to get rid of it. I would, my impulse would be to hold grab and hold."

Hmm. I guess that makes sense. Because she would be enacting the exact fear I have. Right. Right.

Right. Yeah. That makes sense.

And so here's the question I want you to ask each other.

Right. Right. Okay. We've talked about clutter. We've talked about decluttering.

We disagree on how we, how we do it. All that's fine well and good. By the way, check out the minimalist. They have a 30 day decluttering program. The minimalist mom, Dom Maths, and she has programs for decluttering.

They're amazing. And they go in small steps. So they're palatable for most folks. If you're struggling with hoarding disorder, then it's a whole other thing. But those are the two resources that I use in my house.

Okay. But get to this question.

“When it comes to decluttering, how can I best love you while we donate and sell things to folks who will need them?”

And then answer them. Here's how you can love me when it comes to creating a little more order, a little more clarity in our home. Too much clutter does creating anxiety. And sometimes anxiety is the pathway towards accumulation and clutter, which turns into pathological down the road. So there is a relationship between lots of clutter and feeling anxious all the time.

And it's recursive. But let's get to the thing beneath the thing beneath the thing. We both agree we've got to declutter. We're not agreeing on how we can do it. Let's wipe the table and say, okay, we got a bunch of stuff here.

I don't feel safe in a house with 72 pots and pans. It's too much. It's overwhelms me. And the thought of getting rid of all of them overwhelms you. Okay.

So what's a path forward for both of us? How can I love you? And how can you love me? And my hope is, you know, it's both awesome people that that means I'm going to be uncomfortable. And I'm going to give away a bunch of these pots and pans.

And also, you know what? I've got these two closets that are completely clean. I'm going to give him the stinking basement. Fill it up, brother. Fill it up.

As long as everybody's safe, there's no rats down there or whatever. You know what? Keep your, keep your, your box. Full of shenanigans. Right.

It's finding that thing beneath the thing beneath the thing. I think you're on the right track.

“I think it's just part of joining families.”

And I also think this is a great example of two people who love each other. Both kind of want the same thing. And they don't know how to get there. And suddenly that becomes the fight when really where I want you all to connect is. How can I best love you in this moment?

And loving you is going to cause me some internal discomfort. And that's okay. Because you, our marriage are more important than me feeling all the time. Both end. You're awesome.

Thank you so much for the call. We come back a widowed woman asks if she should start dating or wait until her teenage daughter is all grown up. You all know that I hate being online.

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Hit those subscribe and like button. It will get Kelly off my back. All right, it's got to Los Angeles, California. And talk to Christine. What's up, Christine? Hi, Dr. John. How are you? I'm good. How are you?

I'm good. What's up?

“I have one of those questions that seem simple, but if you ask like five different people, you'll get five different answers, right?”

If I wanted your input on it. So I am a 45 years old. I'm a widow. My husband was killed by Drunk Driver in 2021. Hi, good, this gracious. Yeah, it was, I mean, that was a peculiar whole world upside down and just shake it for years.

Yeah. What was his name? Will. Was he awesome? Yeah, he was. And I miss him every day.

Yeah, you'll have kids. Yeah, we have one daughter. She was eight at the time and she'll be 13 soon. Yeah, yeah. And nightmarish last five years, huh? Yeah, it was, it's been challenging.

I mean, I don't know how much you tell you want or not, but like the first year, we were just basically in shock.

Yeah. You know, the second year I focused on my daughter and like helping her process the grief and everything. And then, you know, year three, we were kind of like. But here three is when I sort of like when she was getting better, that's when I sort of allowed myself to fall apart a little bit and process my own grief. You know, with the help of therapists and all of that.

And then you're for with kind of like finding a new normal. And then this past year, year five, we've sort of been, you know, like coming into our own. So. Can I just applaud you? Is that okay? Oh, yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that. But that's the most beautiful picture of an awful situation.

I think I've heard somebody paint in a long, long time. Oh, thank you. Well, you know, it's easy to, you know, when you look back on it. Yeah, I'm here to describe it. Yeah. It's a numbing zombie like nightmare. Yeah. But you look back and you can kind of see some order to it.

And you have handled this so amazing as a mom and as a, as a friend and as a widow, my God, like awesome.

Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Amazing. Amazing. So my question is, you know, we're both in a good place right now. Like she's got a good group of friends. She's doing well in school and, you know, I've got a good social support network and I found some balance in my life.

And we kind of like, you know, we sort of sunk into a new normal. And so my question is, should I wait until she is grown to start dating?

“Because in today's society, you have to date with intention.”

And so it kind of feels like, you know, going to look for a job in some ways. And I don't want to take, I don't want to mess up what we have. You know what I mean? Like, I don't want to open Pandora's box. Yeah. But on the other hand, Carpe DiM and then there's like this idea of maybe she needs, you know, a male figure in her life as an example.

So I just kind of want to dress up on that. You won't like my answer. Is that okay? Okay. Okay. Yeah. Let's hear it. Um, I got two things you won't like.

Well, one, you might roll your eyes at, and that's totally okay. And it's easy for me to say, because as the this moment I'm not dating, right?

Right. Right. Right.

“Now I'm not dating, so it's easy for me to say what I'm about to say.”

Okay.

I reject wholeheartedly what the umbrella culture is telling us about dating.

Okay. So I want you to join me in rejecting job application, ask LinkedIn profile, ask type of meeting people. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I did, I did sort of dip my toes on the water last year. I wasn't really ready. But I tried the dating apps and got a money.

There, there worked was there were totally worthless. There's no other way. Once you when you turn 45 is a woman all the sudden to keep guys completely disappeared. Just get out of that madness. Yeah. I'm done.

Yes. No more of that. No more of that. Okay. I can tell by talking to you that you're charming.

You're very smart. You're very, very strong. What do you do for a living? I'm a tenured faculty. Okay.

Yes. You're very smart. And also, you know how to follow insane people's protocols to get what you like. Let me say it this way. You're a catch. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate that.

So don't get on. You're not applying for nothing. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. That helps. By flipping that around and saying,

I'm worth having fun. Yeah. And I'm worth having fun with. Yeah. And I am not going to outsource my belief in myself to stupid algorithms.

I'm not going to outsource. I'm not going to sell. I'm not going to change how I interact with the world because this is what quote unquote culture is telling me. Culture is insane right now. Yes.

So they don't get to tell me anything. Yes. Right. I'm going to solve for peace. And right now,

solving for peace might be feeling like you're 14 again. Like does he like me? And do I like him? And am I ready? And all those feelings come back?

Right. That's so scary. It's terrifying. Yeah. And you know this.

What what's your field of study? Anthropology. Okay. You especially know this. The only good stuff is on the other side of those feelings.

Yeah. That's true. Right. You know that.

So here's the second thing you're going to really hate.

Do not. And this is going to sound like an accusation. It kind of is. But same team, right? Don't.

Please don't cast your anxious anxiousness on her. Oh, no. Yeah. What she needs is a regulated, sturdy, joyful mom who also has real human emotions. The good stuff, the bad stuff, the whatever.

And so. And that. You're not going to mess her up just because you started dating. If you compromise your values, if you're not honest with her, if you hide stuff from her,

then that will mess her up. Okay. Okay. But. And how old is she?

She's almost 13. Okay. So we can just expect for the next five years. She will judge everything you do or don't do. She'll make up stories and her stories will be largely inaccurate.

“But that's because she's 13, not because she's a survivor of, right?”

Okay. Yeah. It will intensify those feelings. It will intensify those judgments. But having a mom who has paused her life for the next five years.

Is also a meta lesson that she will absorb. Oh, yeah. That's now that you put it like that. I see your point. Yeah.

But having a mom when she's 15 and you sit down with her and you're sobbing. And she's like, what happened? And you say, I just got dumped. Oh. That might be the greatest gift you ever give her.

Moving forward. Yeah. That's a good point. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. I just heard so many horror stories on, you know, how it can go wrong for single moms. And, you know, there's some real creeps out there. Yeah. But I do think that I at least hope have the ability to detect them before they, you know,

are allowed in my personal space. Sure. I feel like what you're saying is really helpful. Because I feel like I'm sort of standing on the line. And if I were, if it was just me, I would take the next step.

Because I'm a mom first above all else.

Yeah.

“That's what the hesitation is where that's coming from.”

You know. And I think that hesitation is right and good. And anybody you meet that would be interested in pursuing a relationship with you. Should be a honorable steward of that of the order of things. Yeah.

Right. And so like, you're a data nerd like me. We both know that bringing in non biological men in the presence of teenage daughters

We both know that. Yeah.

And so we're going to be extra conscious.

You and I would be extra conscious of that risk. Right. Right. But it's still a risk we're taking. Not just for myself, but like you said for her.

“I mean, and the end, like that's what I mean, that's my overarching.”

I want to, I want to be the best model. I can be, you know, not that I'm perfected by any means. But I want to try to get things as right as much as I can. You know, so. And so it's so the greatest gift you can give your your daughter who's had her whole

life carved in half. Yeah. Right. Is here is what a strong, confident woman does next. Yeah.

And that doesn't mean getting it right all the time. It means saying, well, I messed that up, and I made a mistake here. And I learned here. And that is that is the meta gift that parents can pass along to their kids. And you're not doing things that violate your values.

Yeah. Right. And you're not asking a 13 year old for their permission because a 13 year old can't bear that weight. Oh, yeah. Right.

But also holding her when she finds out you're going on a third day with a guy.

And she says, he'll never be dead and you're just giving up.

Holding her and saying, knowing in your in your guts, that's not accurate. But your feelings are very real. And I'm not, I'm not scared of your feelings. And I'll wait through him and hold you because you're my daughter. Yeah.

Cool. Well, thank you so much. That all makes for a lot of sense. Can I ask more personal questions? Yeah.

Yeah. Go ahead. What's his name? Well. No, no, not him.

Oh. You got your eyes on somebody. Who is it? Oh. Not right now, I don't.

I'm not a Christian. I really did. I really did for a while. Like, I put my, you know, as they say in friends, like, I grabbed several spoons, right? And I try, you know, I tried like meeting people in the real world, which is super awkward.

It's the world. And, you know, I try to, I sort of try to couple of dating apps and I went on a couple of dates. And it, but I wasn't ready. Yeah. So I, and so I really did just, you know, turn it all off and stop and just take time to fully process.

And, you know, this last year, I sort of, what I did actually was I made a agreement with myself to go out, like, take myself out in a date once a month. So, you know, I would go to, like, a local, you know, Broadway show or check out a local band or something like that. And as a friend wanted to go with me, that's fine. But otherwise, I would just, oh, by myself. And so I took that time to have a adult time outside of the house and to intentionally just sort of be single for a while and not really, sort of, like, show the concept of dating.

And so now I'm starting to, now I feel like I, like, maybe I'm gonna pick it back up.

“But like I said, I was hesitating because I'm like, maybe, because I do have friends that, you know, they'll say, yes, you should definitely wait.”

Don't even think about bringing a man and I've got other friends who are like, oh, yeah, sleep with his many men or date as many men as you want. But just pretend like you're not doing it, like, just act like you're not doing it.

Okay, so I'm going to, those sets of friends are idiots, never listening in for anything.

For anything. Yeah, right. Well, you know, people give advice based on their personal experiences. And they give their experiences. They give their advice based on their, on their social media profile, like, just on their algorithm feed.

So, both of those advices are so stupid, right? Yeah, okay. But like, the path you're taking is awesome. Here's where Grief will set in in a heavy way, okay? Okay.

And you're like, I've already had enough. But there's still more to come. Grief number one, path one might be, you realize, I'm married my guy. And he's gone. Yeah.

And so I go on some dates. I even flirt with getting serious under the couple of them. And they can't compete. That which means I'm going to grieve because my writer dies gone. And I'm going to put it a period of internet sentence.

Yeah. And that will be, that will be heavy, right? Yeah. Or you meet somebody else who lights you up like a Christmas tree. You start having fun.

“And then you get all those crazy things like I never would have met you if, right?”

And how am I allowed to have fun here when this happened overheat, right? And all of that is completely normal and you grieve it. And you just keep going forward anyway. And so I guess I'll tell you that there's not a right path forward. The only wrong path is if your daughter knows you or she is your entire world,

that weight will crush her. Yeah. Yeah. She has to know mom leaves her and goes to concerts and mom has friends.

And over time, sitting down and saying, hey, it's been five years or six years.

I'm dating somebody. Yeah. Yeah.

“I would not tell my 13 year old on first date number one.”

I wouldn't do that. Yeah. But I wouldn't lie if they asked. Yeah. Is that unfair?

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. 100%. And I recently read this. The greatest place for somebody in what I would call middle age to meet somebody.

Mm-hmm. Just get silly about asking your friends to hook you up with somebody awesome. I've done that.

And I always get the answer like, oh, the ones that my friends are a single or single for a reason.

Yeah. I'm always here. Well, keep it that. Yeah. Maybe they're single for one reason.

But not, I don't know, dude.

“But I think we all forgot that most of us had our first boyfriend or girlfriend.”

We were younger, especially those of us in our 40s or like in our 80s. Like Kelly, like because somebody's like dude. I know someone who likes you or I have a friend who. And we've just kind of given that up for the res. Like you said, the resume and the dating app world.

And it's like, no, dude, you're my closest friends. You know me. If you think there's somebody that I might be interested in or might have a good time with. Dude, give me their number. And again, it feels like we're 15 all over again.

But we forget how nervous that wrecking all of that was. But here we are, right? You're awesome. And I'll just tell you again, how you've navigated this over the last five years. Awesome shout out to Will for being a great husband and a great father and leave in a great legacy.

And shout out to you, Christine, for saying, okay, I've still got half my life left. What's I going to look like? I get to choose it. That looks like I'm going to take intentional steps into that. That's awesome.

And to your friends who give you bad advice. Stop talking, right? Thank you so much for the call, Sister. We come back. A woman asks how to help her husband understand her postpartum depression.

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All right, let's go out to the Skogi's and how to say that. I'm just a Skogi from Miss Skogi. What's that song? An Okie from Miss Skogi? Okie from Miss Skogi.

I believe that one. Well, she's from Oklahoma City, so not any of that. Let's go out to Oklahoma City and talk to Elise with her police. Hi, how are you? I'm doing all right. How about you?

I'm okay. What's going on? I kind of just need help. I mean, how to talk to my husband about my postpartum struggles. I was diagnosed with postpartum depression on about a month postpartum.

How long ago is that? Well, my son just turned six months.

“So, five months ago, I think I was struggling well before that though.”

'Cause I had a pretty traumatic pregnancy in delivery. So, it was all just really hard. But when I would go to talk to my husband about it, what I would get was I don't know what you want me to say. You know, try some medication, so on and so forth.

And I've been struggling with trying to get him to understand the last five months. And our marriage is really kind of at a point where either he, you know, offers him support and tries to understand or I'm not sure where we go from here. Okie, I'm sorry you've been going through this.

Thank you. Being feeling like you're being betrayed by your own body is terrifying, huh?

Yeah. And then feeling like you're right or die isn't helping. Or isn't being supportive is even more nightmares, right? Yeah, it is. Yeah.

So, take away, I've got some ideas on how y'all can move forward when it comes to the particular question. You ask me, but I want to ask a broader question. Okay. Where else are y'all not connecting? Or where else are y'all missing each other?

Um, I would say intimacy is really hard for me right now. Like, just it's overwhelming.

“Um, and for him, like that's what he wants.”

That's what he needs to connect to me and like, I don't want that right now. And it's been really hard to try to push through that. Okay. For him, I think especially because I've felt neglected, you know, pretty much since we got home from the hospital. Yeah.

Um, pushing through ends today. Okay. Okay. We're not going to do guilt sex. We're not going to do coerced sex.

We're not going to do, or he's going to leave me sex. Okay. Okay. Same team. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah. He wants sex. I get that. He wants to be with you. I get that. But there's a level of compassion. There's just basic human kindness.

Right. Missing here, right? Right. Um, I'm going to tell you, I'm going to give you a path, but it's not going to be the one you want to hear.

Is that okay? Yeah. Okay.

Here's what I want you to at least give him a chance with.

Okay. Okay. It's easy for me where I'm sitting to say he's failing you. Right. I'll also admit that when my wife was struggling, I did not know what to do.

And I also didn't know what to do. Except I knew that when I tried to fix her or fix things in her life, that's not the right answer either. And so I remember the powerless feeling. Okay. I'm not giving him a pass at all in any way shape from a fashion, but I do want to give you a context.

Okay. Okay. The question I would have for you is, give me a few examples, a few things that he could do starting today. They would make you feel loved and seen and known and begin to re-establish safety underneath your feet.

Oh gosh. For a little bit of questions. Just start ripping them off. Oh, I want a shower without having to ask for permission. That'd be one.

“Who do you have to ask permission to shower from?”

Um, pretty much him. Um. What? Tell me about that. Well, you know, if I go to shower, um,

not even five minutes later, the day we'll start screaming and he'll bring him in.

And basically, like, I can't handle it.

Here he is. I'll be there in the middle of my shower. And, uh, you know, I'm working mom. I work too jobs and I'm the student as well. So, you know, at the end of the day when I come home.

And I've been at work all day long and I come home and, you know, our son is key things about the lot and I want 20 minutes to myself in the shower. You know, I feel like lately, if I'd be like very certain of, please don't bother me or I have to lock the door. That's been really hard to try to convey to him, like,

can I have 20 minutes to myself? That I'm not being crawled on. That I'm not being touched. Don't he needs me? Yeah.

But it's always it. But at the point like I know that 20 minutes is going to end and then it's all going to start. Up again. Okay. Give me another example of a way he can love you.

He used to do really small gestures for me. I mean, like he would bring me a drink when he come home from work.

“Or he would bring me flowers and I don't really remember the last time I got flowers.”

Okay. Or anything like that. It's for your affection. Little tiny signals that showed he cares about you. Yeah.

Okay. What else? I don't think that we've had any like dates since we've had our son. I don't even think that we had a date while I was pregnant. Okay.

What else? I don't know. I don't know. Maybe just take over a little bit more with the kids so it's all on me. Okay.

So here's what I want you to do.

And this is very unholy wood.

This is very unall of those things.

Being angry with him and being pissed off at him. And by the way, I'm angry at him right now. Just so you know. Okay. Which is unfair because he's not on the phone.

Yeah.

“But I'm also trying to remember holding a toddler who was screaming.”

And I didn't know what to do. And I thought I was doing something wrong. And I was so scared of hurting my kid of messing something up. Mm-hmm. Then I didn't know what to do.

I didn't know what to do. I remember that feeling. It's again, not a con, not an excuse. But being clear with yourself on. Here's what I need.

And here's more importantly. Here's what I want. Right. Where that gets very vulnerable is you saying when I get home. I want to give you a hug for 30 seconds.

And then I'm going to go take a shower. And I'm going to be out of sight out of pocket for 40 minutes. You're on your own with the kid. You're a good dad. You all have fun.

Make it work. And if he screams, he screams. If he cries, he cries. That's part of being a parent. Right.

I want to want you again.

And so here's what must be true.

“I refuse to be coerced into sex anymore.”

Because that's not loving it. It makes me feel used. Yeah. And not even you used to. I would like you to send me text messages throughout the day that tell me you're thinking about me.

I would like you to plan one day to week. And I'll come home and take my 40-minute shower. But this one will be 30 minutes. I'll even set up the babysitter but I want you to set up a date. And I want us to go on a date.

Yeah. Okay. You and I want you to give him as clear a roadmap as possible. And I know it's cool and invoked to beat up on guys. But they should just know you're right, but we don't.

Right. Right. Right. I just part of me feels like he doesn't know how to handle it. So he just chooses not to in a way.

That's very fair, very fair. And you've probably seen him figure out how to fix the mower or how to figure out how to do other stuff. And it's like, we'll just figure out how to do this. I get that. Right.

You're exactly right. You're exactly right. And here we are. It goes back to the like it's a thing I've been preaching for several years, which is we can be frustrated that things aren't the way they should be.

Or we can choose reality and march on from here. Yeah, that makes sense.

“I think some of my frustration comes from I feel like he's being very selfish right now.”

Whereas I'm having to be very selfless and everything that I do. Yes. My career being a mom. Putting all my other free time into being a student. Is he working?

Yeah. He works. And he's also a student. So we're both under fair, my stress. Sure.

I'm not using it as an excuse to, you know, not do anything. Right. But he didn't make a comment to me other day. He's like, I just want my wife back just to me that felt very selfish. Because I mean, I want me back to.

Right. But this has been hard. It's been very hard. And I would have advised him to not say that in that way. But you can also hear that as he loves you and he doesn't know how to connect with you anymore.

Right. And he used to know how to do that. And so again, wrong way to say it. But let me put this way. We get to make up whatever story we want about what he said.

Right. We can make up the story. You don't have the same body. You used to have your too busy for me now. You can make up that story.

And it might be true. Or we can make up the story. This guy still loves me. And he doesn't know. He doesn't know how to connect with me.

Now that both of our lives are completely different. One of those stories has at least up opportunity to work out in y'all's favor. The other story ends in score keeping and contempt and resentment. And then it's over. Yeah.

And you're really good to not get the score. Yeah. You're the same. You're the same. It's so hard to not keep score.

Especially when it's a thousand to zero. Right. Right. And so. You've probably heard me say this over and over again.

When you have a child, especially your first child.

The marriage you had is over. It doesn't exist anymore. Yeah. And the exercises. All right.

Now we get to choose to build a new marriage. Are you in? I felt like maybe I was the only one that understood that things would in our marriage at least would change a bit.

And maybe he didn't understand or maybe still not understanding that. You know, it probably won't go back to the way it was before we had kids. It will never go back. No. Yeah.

So it didn't work this much. You can have sex. Whatever you wanted. You can go out whenever you wanted. You had money to spare.

Like you had everything. Get energy. Yeah. That is over.

And here's what's awesome.

You'll get to choose with a new set of variables. What your life looks like moving forward inside of a new context. And it's a different kind of awesome. Yeah. Right.

Right. But there's an intentionality to it. Mm-hmm. And if he was on the phone with me, trust me, I'd be letting him have it. You know I would.

But what I'm more concerned about with you is the clearer you can get on how you would like to be loved in the next two weeks. And then we're going to revisit it again. Right. The clearer you can be for yourself.

“Which is hard when you're struggling with postpartum, right?”

Everything feels like everything, right? Is that fair? Yeah, that's fair. What's the manifestations of your postpartum? Um, a lot of anger.

Okay. No sleeping.

I had really bad anxiety at the beginning.

But I think that's at least getting better. Okay. Was it physical or was it thoughts or was it both? More physical. Okay.

Yeah. Okay. So. But I have a new sound appreciation for all the women in the world who's at base. Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's it's why. I'm sure. It's why. Yeah. And.

You prepared you for it. Yes. Sure. And sitting down with him and saying, you have been very selfish lately. He will feel that in his guts right or wrong as a declaration of war.

As yet another way he's failing. Yeah.

His wife doesn't like him anymore.

He can't make his own baby stop crying. He feels useless in his own house. It's a failure factory. Yeah. Or you can say, hey, we've got a brand new marriage now.

The marriage we had is over. We get to choose with everyone we want it to look like. I've got a road map for how you can best love me over the next two weeks. And because of the pace of change, we're both students, we're both working a bunch of jobs. Our kid is going to be a different human in the next six months.

This will change. Here's how you can reconnect with me. And then that's vulnerable because he might look at you and say, I'm not doing that. And now we have to deal with that. Yeah.

But that's a that's a more honest path than creating stories, judging those stories and finding yourself, I'm about to leave this guy, which is how this call started. Right. And that's here. And it's none of this is a pass on him.

But it's just trafficking in reality. Yeah.

“I think it's hard to see things from an outside perspective when you feel like you're drowning.”

And especially when the person who's supposed to reach out and pull you out of the water isn't helping. Yeah. Totally. Totally totally. Yeah.

That's why I appreciate that. Thank you very much. I hate that you're feeling so alone right now. I hate that he's acting like this. No.

I need to. No. Okay. But that contempt. That's going to.

I mean, it's going to melt y'all, right? Yeah. Well, his actions are going to melt your response to the actions. I mean, it just creates this downward spiral. It's really hard to dig out of unless somebody just calls it and says, hey.

We're going to start new today. Here is a road map to me. Will you walk this road? There. Okay.

I mean, that's great because so far I feel like it's just been a melting pot of emotions. Yeah. Well, and there's been no way out so far. Yeah. And it's hard to describe to somebody.

Like, hey, every one of my emotions feels like they're on fire right now. Right. And he said this, he asked us in a very unhelpful, unsensitive way. But what do you want me to do about it? Yeah.

I would have, like, do, don't say that. I was a matter with you.

“And also, I remember feeling so helpless.”

Yeah. I remember getting to the place where I thought the greatest gift I can give my wife and my new child is to not be at this house. Yeah. And I know that he probably feels that way.

I mean, he works 24 hours shifts. And he's told me, like, it's like you enjoy it when I'm at work. And you can say, I do because the house has peace. Right. And so let's decide how we want this house to feel when we both walk in.

Right.

And if he walks in the door, arms wide open.

Ready to help. But he just support and love you.

“Ready to give you your 45 minutes of no one's, like, just you, right?”

Mm-hmm. Then you suddenly have a little bit more space, a little bit more margin. Yeah. Right. And then holding his hand is a place of safety.

It's not a, oh, God, here we go. Yeah. It's what's felt like a lot lately. Right. And I don't want my marriage to feel like a obligation, you know?

Yeah, I get that, but there is, there are obligations in a marriage. There are for sure. Right. There's responsibilities. There's things you do for a person so that you see them and know them and celebrate the crap out of them.

And yes, challenge them sometimes. Man, I, A, I, I, man, my heart is split open for anyone going through postpartum right now.

“It's, it's just a nightmare of being betrayed by your own body.”

I, I mean, I can't even, I can't even wrap my head around with that must be like. And my heart goes out to husbands who literally are wide. I don't know what to do next. And so creating a map, here's a road. Will you follow it?

Is a scary, vulnerable thing. But he just, my follow it. And then if he gives you a map, you might be able to have some space to then say, okay, I can walk down that road too. And suddenly you'll have a path back to each other. And that's my hope for every marriage, every marriage.

Thank you for the call, Sister. We'll be right back. This show is sponsored by Better Help. Some of my most amazing mentors and some of my closest friends and my wife, they're all amazing women. And one of the common themes I've heard from all of them is that between caring for people and all the other responsibilities and the expectations,

the whole world is always dumping on them, women are under incredible pressure every day.

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That's Better Help, HELP.com/deloney. All right, we're back. Go to the app store and download the together app by Dr. John Deloney. If you're married, it will transform your marriage with a microhabit daily actions that can change everything in your marriage. Go download it and write folks.

We're coming. We've got some guys working on it hanging there. The together app. Go check it out. All right, Kelly.

Am I the problem? Go for it. All right, so this is from Brianna in Rolling North Carolina. And she writes. I recently found a tattoo that I decided I would like to get for my daughter, who's two years old.

So, not getting it for the daughter. Right. Let's make sure we're clear on that. She's getting it in honor of. It's a personalized tattoo.

My mother kindly offered to pay for it as a gift to me. She later informed me that she was also going to get the same tattoo. Am I the problem for not wanting her to die? I didn't hear what you said. That's the best hold my beer ever. She just said about the problem for not wanting her to get the same tattoo.

That's weird. And also, what a way to get your kid to not get a tattoo. I'm going to get the exact same one. But what if she's not doing it for that reason? What if she's legit?

That's such a boss move. As she's been like, oh my God, I love that idea. I want to get the same one. So, there's either if she being manipulative or if she just being oblivious. Yeah, if she's being it either way, I would say, Mom, I want you to come up with your own design.

“I want you us to get tattoos together. I think that's awesome.”

But I want this to be special between me and my daughter. I want you to make up a designer, get a design that's good for you too. And if she says, no, I'm getting that exact one. I literally wouldn't get that tattoo.

I had never thought of that before.

When my son comes home and goes, I'm going to go get this tattoo.

“Or I just got this tattoo. I'm going to go get the exact same one.”

I think that's hilarious.

Unless it's like a limb biscuit tattoo or something.

And that'll probably hold out.

“But you know what? I might get that one just 'cause.”

I think that's such a great move.

If your kid's like, you don't want to get which tattoos. Sweet. I'll get the exact ones. That's so good.

“This tattoo would be some 90's country artists. Oh, I do.”

It'll be Hank Williams with, like, yes, exactly. Yeah. He thinks tattoos are obnoxious and ridiculous. He's pretty judgmental if his father. And he's sadly right about a lot of them.

But, Alas. Alas. Now, my daughter on the other hand. I think she's going to be sleeved up. Love you guys, bye.