My Irrational Fear of Spending Money Is Ruining Our Marriage

It's all stemming from childhood maybe and just this irrational fear of things, but I can't stop thinking about going broke or losing a job, you know, all these different things.

I want to press on your words, irrational fear. What up, what up, what up, this is John with the Dr. John Deloni Show. Coming to you from National Tennessee, taking your calls on your life, real people with real challenges.

“If you want to be on this show, click the link in the show note and Kelly will get you on.”

Let's go up to Cleveland, Ohio and talk to Balakay. Hey, Blake, what's up, Anthony? Hey, Dr. John, how are you doing?

I'm good brother, how are you?

Pretty good, thanks. I appreciate you taking my call. I'm really looking for some insight and guidance about how I can overcome this crippling fear of spending money. It seems to really be taken a toll on my marriage a little bit. Tell me about it. So my wife and I've been married just over a year, about a year and a half and we're both, we're both 34. And we're in the best position we've ever been in financially. I mean, we've been together, you know, for quite a long time.

“And it's just, it's one of those things where I just feel like it's all stemming from childhood maybe and just this irrational fear of things.”

But we're saving so much money. We have a lot of savings. We're in a healthy position financially yet. I can't stop thinking about going broke or losing a job, you know, all these different things. Dude, then there, homie, I want to press on your words irrational fear. Tell me how money was growing up. Constant, constant argument on the hall. I mean, I, I'm the youngest of five boys and we, everybody, all of us were involved in adult problems. So, you know, there was a lot of just craziness and a lot of fear of, you know,

we're gonna lose the house, my dad, you know, almost lost his job several times because of drunk driving.

We just never had enough money to pay the bill. I mean, I, I take that back. We did when I was really young. Everything was great.

And then it was ripped away. So it was like, I knew what security felt like at a young age and then all of a sudden I didn't. Yeah. How have you been with your new wife? We've been together seven years, seven years.

“Did your lived experience at home, especially with such an abrupt transition?”

Going from a pretty safe place to a pretty chaotic place. Did that play into how long it took you to decide I'm going to go all in on you? Sometimes kids who grow up in pretty chaotic home environments who then meet somebody. And even somebody that over time they consider safe and somebody they want to spend their rest of their life with. The idea of putting both feet in one boat till death to a spot you and me ride or die is not a scary proposition in like scary movie kind of scary.

But like in your nervous system, unwise, unsafe, unsmart, expose. Is that part of the reason why it took seven years to formalize this? Or maybe not? It is. I mean, no, that's definitely a, that's my part of it. Yeah, I would say there was a combination of different things. I needed to do some growing up, I needed to do certain things and whatnot.

But it is a little bit of that letting go of that control. You know, so the scariest part for you is that the piece you're seeking is on the other side of control. And also, there's a chance on the other side of control you get hurt. And so I can't guarantee you that it's going to work out on the other side of letting go. The other side of full trust. What I can guarantee you is you'll suffocate your relationship yourself and those around you.

If you keep your hands closed so tightly on this side of control. I'll challenge you. I don't believe that what you're experiencing when it comes to saving money is irrational. It's burned into your nervous system. It's a lived experience. It's right for you. Okay. And so what I, in the reason I'm telling you that is part of healing here is going to be choosing to stop going to war with your body. If you think the feelings you have and the emotions you have are wrong, irrational, stupid, misguided, then you have to fight yourself before you do the next right thing.

If you'll practice, what I'm about to say, it'll change your life. And that is this. Literally taking your hand. I used to do it with a fist. I used to do it with a whole hand. And now I can just do it and you might see me on a stage someday doing this. I just take my four finger and I scratch the inside of my thumbnail.

That's often me feeling a thing and showing my body I felt that. Thanks for trying to take care of me. I'm going to go do this now because I'm driving. And when you put yourself in that position where your body knows I'm driving, that's the path to healing. Autonomy, right? Agency is the nerd word for it. When your body knows you're driving, it can begin to release some of these automatic nervous system triggers from your past.

And here's what this looks like in real time.

Can we go through some numbers real quick? Yeah.

“What are you in your wife? What's your household income for a year?”

About 200. Who do you all owe money to? We have a very modest mortgage and we have her car payment that I mean we can pay off but yeah, that's a little different story. It'll work pays for it so it's a whole different thing. How much you have in an emergency fund or just cash, liquid?

Like 80. How much do you owe left on your mortgage? About 1190. How secure is your job? As it lately, it's felt a little bit insecure.

It's never, I've been at this particular company for 12 years so it's never felt that way.

And it's honestly kind of a job where it's, I feel under-employed.

“My wife tells me a lot like you should probably go get something that more equates your earning potential.”

But it's probably one of those things where I've stayed here because of its security. Yeah. I did leave for like a year and a half to take an outside sales position that I ended up getting like go out because the company was really struggling. So I took that leap of faith to lead this comfort and it backfired. So now I'm back at the place I was at and now it's feeling a little unstable again.

So can I challenge you on something? Yeah. If you grew up in a chaotic, unsafe, unpredictable probably better word. Home environment. You said you're the youngest of five brothers?

Yep. The youngest of an alcoholic son? Alcoholic father? And yeah, both parents. Okay.

Any sort of setback will be felt as I told you so. I want to suggest that you didn't get in and I told you so. You got to hell ya. And here's what I mean. Everything in your body orient towards is there a safe place and for you, safe means predictable.

Yeah. And you chose to step out of predictability for something that might happen. Like I just said, on the other side of control, something great could happen. You could have had an outside sales and it could have exploded. You could have had your home and paid cash for your neighbor's home.

And on the other side of control, it doesn't always work out.

But when you grow up the way you did, every decision you make is judge not on strength and not on risk and not on the next right move. It's simply judged by, did you inconvenience or bother somebody else? Yeah, right.

“And so I would suggest you should be really, really proud of yourself for taking that step.”

And you learned, oh man, whenever I take this step again one day and take a risk, step through the step through the tension and go to the other side of control, I got cash in the bank. I got a wife who's a good who makes a great salary. We are going to take a risk but not uncertain. We're not going to be homeless and we're not going to lose food.

And also I have some more information now, some more wisdom. So I know a better question's to ask about the stability of where I might try to step into. And the cool thing about getting married, especially if you marry a rider tie,

is she's able to see things and experience things that you don't see.

And that can be the beauty of things.

“Now there's some wives that will nag their husband.”

She need to make more money because they want a bigger Tahoe, whatever. Doesn't sound like her at all. It sounds like she's saying, dude, I see so much more potential in you than you see in yourself. Yes, 100%. And that means you married well, brother. That's awesome.

For sure. So here's the path with money. Everybody has a different risk profile, okay? For me, I'm pathological, meaning I can't sleep well. Like I literally have tracked my sleep.

My sleep is the last one I owe people money. It's a constant threat to my nervous system. Just this.

So my wife and I have lived in smaller houses.

We've driven Crimea cars over the years because she loves me more than she loves shiny toys. And I have committed that when we hit certain thresholds and milestones, when we have this much savings, we have this much in retirement. When we have paid this big thing off,

“we're going to go on whatever vacation you want to go on.”

We're going to spend almost indiscriminately like we budget money, but like I want you to spend whatever you want on, fill in the blank. And so what I've had to do is say, "Are you with me?" And I had to do the work of identifying this is where I feel most exposed. And then on the back end of that saying, "Okay, I'm going to practice.

This sounds stupid for everybody listening to this, who's really struggling financially right now." But I'm going to practice spending money. I'm going to budget money with one intention. I just practicing letting go, practicing seeing how joyful my wife is

because we went to dinner together, feeling that.

And then walking through it and saying, "Let's go do this. You plan to vacation. Where do you want to go? Let's go." We're going to intentionally put three date nights on the calendar.

And two of them are going to be at nicer restaurants than chilies. All right. Well, one Taco Bell night, because everybody needs a Taco Bell night. But we're going to have two of them that are pretty nice places. I'm going to practice feeling that feeling and then going to do the next right thing. Yeah.

Does it make sense? Absolutely does. Yeah. I wish it was more complex in that, but my promise is if you will practice this over time, your body will reorient your nervous system, your threat detection system.

Hmm. To one that is, "Oh, this guy's driving. He's in control." Yeah. And especially if you give your wife a signal of some sort, a hand sign, a certain hug, like whatever that lets her know, I'm pretty anxious right now.

Or I'm nervous today, or I'm nervous this month. And she has already has a roadmap for how she can love you in those moments. Dude, y'all are way, way ahead most. Otherwise, you'll end up fighting a fight about spending and saving. And that's not the real fight. The real fight is in my safe.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? I do.

“Can I tell you, brother, I'm real real proud of you?”

Well, thanks, man. And if you haven't already, survivors guilt is coming to. Mm-hmm. Are you already there? Good enough.

'Cause some of your brothers didn't make it like you did, did they? Really only wanted to be honest. Okay. Yeah. So, as the survivors guilt build and the feelings of guilt that you have,

which I don't really think they're guilt, but it's just an easy word to put on them. As those feelings build, consider this. I want to put myself in the best situation with my marriage, with my mental and emotional health and my finances. So that if the day comes, I need to help somebody that I care about,

I'm in a position to do so. Right? It's like me switching from own workout, so I can get a six pack, and I can get ripped to making the switch to own exercise every day. So I feel my best, so I can show up and be the best husband and coworker

and dad I can be. And that shift changed everything for me. You know what I'm saying? Oh yeah. Totally.

I'm going to say no to all my brothers, text messages, and request for money, and hey, hey man. I'm going to say no to those things, so that when one of them needs some money down the road, need some supporter help down the road, I got you.

Yeah. And this is just part of changing your family, to be part of changing your family, to be a brother. Mm-hmm.

Over the next 24 months to pay your house off.

“And everyone's going to say, "Oh, can't believe you're paying it down with interest rate."”

They don't get a vote, dude. I call it my sleep tax. Right? Like, maybe that's not for you. Maybe that's just for me.

Maybe that's for somebody else. But like, what is it going to take for you to say? Okay, the risk profile is low enough for me to be able to breathe, and now we're going to lean into this. Because you're saving money, right?

Oh, yeah, like crazy. Yeah. But then things we have spent good money on,

they've always had some kind of return, like, all I'll spend,

this big vote load of money, but it's going to be on finishing the basement, because there's a return. Oh, yeah. It's never just, oh, yeah.

Let's go slow buck money on a cool vacation, because there's no return except for just joy. I want that. I'll take me in.

“What's my buddy who's one of my best friends on planet?”

He's a banker. I remember, like, I mean, I was just ranting and raving about the ROI on this particular house I bought. And I'm going to do this. I'm going to keep it in Boba, Boba, on flip it and move it here.

And I remember he stopped me. And he said, dude, get your wife a home. And I realized then I didn't know if I had to do that. Right? Like, it not everything needs to ROI in the short term,

or on a spreadsheet. There's different types of ROI. Purpose, passion, meaning, laughter, fun.

And if you've never experienced those or worse,

if you've experienced those and gotten hit over the head because of them, you're just going to have to practice your way into a mother. Ask, I want you and your wife to have this conversation, which ought to go to dinner, and I want you to ask her this one question.

How do you want the house to feel? Every time I walk in. If you all decide to have kids, how do we want the house to feel? When all of us are in the house together. I want it to feel warm.

I want to feel laughter. I want you to be happy. I'm home. All those things. And I want you to be honest.

Here's what I want to feel in a walk in the house. And I want you to reverse engineer. What must be true? What actions are going to get you and your body towards these places of peace?

But man, you are doing so so good, dude. It's awesome. Thanks for the call, homie. Practice, practice, intentionality, and more practice. This has changed in your family tree, my man.

We come back. A man asks how to help his wife feel loved and supported after giving birth. Alright, let's talk about love. And not the...

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brave conversations that folks have. It's got to date no higher and talk to Connor. Hey, Connor, what's up, man? I'm doing good. How are you? I'm good, brother.

What's going on, man? So I was just wondering how I make my wife feel loved after she's given birth. I'm probably the wrong guy to ask on that one, dude. Have you asked her? Yeah, we've had conversations about it,

but I just wanted to hear from an expert, I guess. Well, the expert on what your wife needs to feel loved is your wife. Tell me how the conversations have gone. So sometimes, so just be in like a moment of doubt and she'll look at me and ask if I were grant marrying her

And I understand that at some capacity if she even has thoughts like that, then I've failed. And I truly, I love my wife and I want her to feel loved and I want her to be loved. And I don't know, it just makes me sad that she feels like that.

So I talked with her, I'd best her.

“No, I'll soon after, how long ago would your baby born?”

Two months. Okay, so she's still very much in a postpartum timeframe. Okay. And so I would say one of the hardest challenges, like people talk about, I don't know how to watch bottles

or you can learn all that stuff. The hardest part is staying present and staying sturdy and choosing to hear certain things and not take them personally. Because that kind of statement, do you still love me? I still got you married me?

Is a bid for... Think of somebody with a blindfold on the dark reaching out, saying are you still there? It's not an accusation. Or it's not an indictment.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And dude, I failed at this miserably. I took every word my wife said personally. I took every rejection from my two, three, four, six, seven month old kid personally.

I remember sobbing, dude. I remember being like banging on my card dashboard.

“What kind of loser father can't sue their four month old son, five month old son?”

And it took me a long time to realize, oh, that was not about me at all. I had nothing to do with me. And if I could go back, I would hug myself and say, bro, just stay present, stay here. It's not about you.

And so here's a roadmap for you, okay? Is she seeing somebody? Like a therapist? Or has she been honest with her OBGYN about how she's kind of laying in the plane? Coming back to...

Postpartum's man, it's tough. Everybody experiences a different. And it can be a scary place. And if your wife knows, oh, I also have to manage my husband's emotions. Two, often she'll stop talking because she doesn't want to hurt you.

And that stop talking, that action of stop talking. Man, it just becomes, it becomes really internalized. And so sometimes people get counselors. Sometimes people, like, are real open and honest with their OBGYN, with their, um, aftercare doctor,

just to say, like, hey, here's what I'm experiencing.

And man, there's so many cool opportunities, treatments, medications, and certain cases. There's so many different things to help land that plane. You know what I'm saying? Right.

Yeah. Um, so I'd highly, highly recommend that she talk to the doctor. If she's struggling, okay? If it's just a random, this or that,

what I would, not a random. That's not a dismissive, but, um, if she's not struggling, if she's not wrestling with postpartum, if she's just like, her body's not where she wants it to be,

her, she's doubting her skills as a new mother, which many, many, many, many, many people do. If she's going through that, and she's just like, literally reach out to the dark center. You still hear, you still hear.

A great avenue is to not look at this as the rest of your life, but to come up with a weekly touch point that is, when everybody's good or as good as you can be with a two month old,

“they just, they just blew up your entire lives, right?”

Um, and say, hey, well, you're not feeling great. What's, what's a couple of ways I can love you well? Great. When you're really down,

what's the way I can love you? Okay. I have a couple of guys that I hang out with that I talk to.

You never have to worry about my emotional well being right now.

I'm sturdy as a nook. And I'm going to trust you that if I need to take something personally, you will say, I want you to take this one personally. Right, and you're giving each other road maps, and you're not saying this is going to be the way it is forever,

because it's just not man. This two shall pass, but it's going to be this way for seven days. And the next week we're going to check in on Sunday nights, or Monday morning or whatever, and we're going to do this again. What about this week?

What about next week? And if she tells you, hey, dude, you're not helping enough around here. And you can say, okay, can you help me? Like, I'm trying my best. I know it shouldn't be your job, but I just need help.

What else needs to be done around here?

I don't know how to sterilize bottles, I've never changed the diaper, or whatever.

And you choose not to take that personally as you're some kind of failure as a father. But instead, you choose to say, I'm going to be one of those dads, it's steps in the gap, in the gap. And not only steps in the gap, but picks this house up from the foundation up.

All men can come home exhausted from work and take the baby,

“because their wife is crumbling under the weight.”

That's just what good spouses and good partners do. Right. Right. And I'm just imploring you to not take the shift and change as she doesn't love you as much anymore. She's doubting your relationship now, your failed father, man, this stuff.

It's all so new. It's just about doing what's the next right thing. And she's going to be the best guide for how you can love her well when she's struggling when she's up, when she's down, whatever. Like in that situation, you just gave me when my wife was two months' postpartum, the greatest gift I could have given her in that moment is to say nothing and just go hug her, just go hold her.

Because that wasn't a information question, it was a nervous system question. Right. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, it makes sense. Are you scared?

You nervous to me what you're feeling?

I feel like I don't do enough for her. And I try to, I'm not as present as I should be with the baby, I'm willing to admit that. But I want you to lock your phone away. And you're going to feel incompetent and you're going to feel bored. And you're going to feel like you're wasting your time.

And I'm telling you right now, these are magic magic moments if you lean into them through the boredom, through the frustration, through the, I can't make them stop crying, through the, I don't know what to do. Otherwise, you're going to spend your time in a shame, spiral, where I'm not helping like I should. And you're going to pick up your phone to alleviate that. And then your kids going to start crying, you're going to hand it back to her while she just needs five minutes in the shower by herself.

20 minutes in the shower alone, please go out and you're going to hand her the baby back and you go back to your phone and back to your phone. Put your phone away and force yourself into that discomfort. Okay. Right. Is that fair?

Yeah. Have you ever been a dad before? No.

“Have you ever been married to someone who just had a two, a two month old had their body explode and had a two month old?”

Yes. You've been married to somebody before? Oh, I thought you might like this marriage. No, no, no.

This is my first marriage.

Okay. So, we do me a few favor. Yeah. Give yourself some, some slack man. Give yourself some grace.

Okay. I try. I don't know. Most men and I'm looking at myself here didn't even know enough to ask. How can I love you?

What tasks need to be done? Maybe call two or three of your buddies and say, "Hey, what's ten things I can do?" Or call your buddies wives that you're still close to. Call them and say, "Hey, I need ten things that I need to want me to walk in the door of it after work. And my phone's going to be away and I'm going to knock these things out."

And by the way, you're going to wash the clothes. You're going to be like, "Dear, I'm going to do all the laundry." And you're going to wash them with the wrong soap or whatever. And your wife's going to say, "I can't believe you're watching wrong soap." You're going to have to choose not to take that personally and say, "Cool.

Learn something else." On to the next. You know what I'm saying? It's about showing up and just showing up and just showing up. Right.

And it's so hard, man. It's so hard. Okay. But the best, the best person to tell you how you can love her is her. Promise it all them in listening.

If your wife knows, I can't fully let myself be seen and known because my husband's going to take it personal. And he's going to go into a temper tantrum or a shame spar or whatever. They're going to stop telling you. They're going to stop letting themselves be seen and known.

And when that happens, me and now I've got real problems. And so I'm going to have a group of guys that I complain with. I'm going to have a group of guys that I ask questions to. I'm going to have a group of my buddies wives. You can help me.

“What are the 10 things I need to be doing right now?”

Right now. And I'm going to knock him out. I'm going to be so tired. But she is too. We're both tired.

And I'm going to keep grinding and grinding and grinding. And me and my wife are going to have at least one touch point a week. How can I love you this week? And your baby, your marriage, your wife. It will change that quickly in this season.

It'll level out in several months and it will level out in several years. But right now it's changing minute by minute. So hey, I'm going to hook you up, dude. And you and your wife the together app for a year for free. So hang on to the line, homie.

I'm going to hook you up. And it is just a small daily action. Back towards each other. One of them is to write a note of support and love for your spouse.

I'm working on a writing project.

I sat down.

“My wife had written the note and said, right there, dude.”

And it was. I can't tell you how awesome it was. Because me, my wife used the app, too. So I'm going to send it to you, and it's just a daily action. A small bid back to each other.

And as we're finding out from folks who are using this app all over the country, it makes all the difference. And so I'm going to line with hook you up for it. If you're interested in the together app, go to the app store and download it. It's awesome.

It's super inexpensive for you and your spouse. Super inexpensive. We do that intentionally. And Android folks were on the way. We'll be right back.

Every day on my show, I talk about boundaries. And listen, boundaries are not about being mean. And boundaries are not about cutting everybody off. Boundaries are about being safe.

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What's up, Lynn? Hello. What's up? Well, they told me to keep it short to the point. So here's my question.

Go for it. What's your got? 50 year old female been with my husband 31 years, married 26. And he's been an alcoholic. A high-functioning alcoholic the whole time.

And he finally decided after many years of me,

my children begging him whatever we finally gave up, and he can do his own thing. Then he decided he was going to go to rehab. So I took him to rehab and the whole way down there. He was, you know, I just want us to get back together or get reconnect.

I just want you to love me and blah, blah, blah, blah. And that's not been the deal I've been living for ever. And I kind of have moved on whether he's aware of it or not. What does that mean? What does that mean? Are you seeing somebody else?

Absolutely not. That is the last thing. I've done her man. I'm just, I don't need one. Okay. So I have really lost, you know, lost respect for him a long time ago.

And he's welcome to come home. He's welcome to be back in the house. He's welcome to be, you know, there and everything. But my question to you, I guess, is it mean of me just to try to stay the status quo

“and stay the platonic marriage that we've had for the last hour of a long?”

Or should I, is it mean to expect that? Because I know he's going to want to expect something different when he gets back. Or do I just, you know, go ahead and give him a divorce. So if he wants to move on, he can. I mean, it sounds like you've already left him.

Years ago. Yeah. It's only brand new information to him. But he was sick. Do I?

He was sick. Yeah, but there was a lot of in the meantime. I mean, like I said, he's high functioning was able to keep his job. Go to work every day and do. But years of, you know, him knowing he has a drinking problem and children asking him

when they were as little as five and six to not drink and do. And me being a hundred percent responsible being the main breadwinner, provider for our children, everything. And I get that he was sick. But, and this might make me sound bad after a while, you know, you don't care.

And so, so yes, to answer the question, for him to come home.

“And for him to come home to somebody who you don't just not like him.”

You despise him. You despise what he's saying. I don't. It's worse than to despise. I'm a pathetic.

That's it. You don't even care. No. I don't. Yeah.

I'm completely apathetic. My children have really suffered. My son had a drug overdose a year ago. And I have been begging for help with our son since he was little. And I was turned into the villain by him with our son.

And I had to go pick up our son and carry him out of the house. Literally carry him like a baby 21 years old and go to the emergency room to save his life.

And my husband showed up for 20 minutes.

And I stayed in the hospital with them for three days and got him 51 50 to take care of him. And this is how my life has been with him. I have to take care of everything. And now that he wants to take care of his problem, now I'm supposed to flip the switch and be like, Okay.

No. Not at all. I don't think that's any one is asking.

“I think you're mad that he's going to get help.”

Well, yeah, because now it's costing me money again. Yeah. Listen, listen. Your marriage has been over forever. Yes.

Why won't you just like, what you're not owning here is that you have chosen every minute of this too. Mm-hmm. Yes. I purposely did when I had talked to my daughter when she was 14.

I had taken her out for a girl's day and I was going to say, hey, you know, because I knew she would be the one to take it hard.

And I approached divorcing her father and she lost it. I know. I know. But you outsourced your emotional, the next right thing. Your emotional maturity onto a 14 year old girl.

That was not fair. Yes. No, it wasn't. I looked back at that. I know a hundred percent, but I knew that if she could be okay with that, I could do it.

And we could move on and have a better life.

“And she'd melt it down and I said, okay, that is not something you will ever have to worry about.”

Don't worry about that. Okay. Hold on a while. Do not. Lynn, do not put this on her.

No, I'm not. What I'm saying is I would have left a long, long time ago. Okay, but hold on. But you did it. And here we are.

No. Yes. So here I am. A lot of years later. You feel like you burned your life to the ground.

Yep. And you feel like he kept putting a kindling on the fire. Yeah. So until you get over your anger with with yourself. Until you take ownership of, I stayed in the passenger seat on this on this roller coaster.

I could have got out at any time. Uh-huh. But I chose to stay here. I chose to stay here. Yep.

Yes, I did. And until you take co-responsibility for the world you all co-created. Now, if he was on the phone, 100% he should have been there for his family. Should have been there for his kids. Should have dealt with drinking a long time ago.

Yeah. And he did it. No, I was. I have my equal fair share. Okay.

I was hard on my kids. I was everything else. So no, there are a hundred percent. I have been that way. Uh, not.

Okay. But listen, if he was a stranger. Mm-hmm. Just somebody you worked with. You would treat him with more grace and gratitude than you're treating him right now.

If he was a homeless person on the side of the road in downtown Houston, and you talked to him for two minutes and they're like, "Hey, I just got out of recovery. I blew my whole family up." And I decided like, "I got to be, I want more for their life, want more for my life." You would high five of them. But the fact that you're mad that he's going to get help.

No, I'm not. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm mad that it's too little too late. If that's the way you want to see it, then yes, it's cruel for you to welcome him back home and say, "I'm still going to remain cut off." Mm-hmm. I'm not going to listen to your, um, to you walk through your guilt and your pain and your shame and regret.

I will not be here for you. I haven't been here for you for years. You weren't here for me. Yes, that's cruel. Okay.

That's what I need to know. I mean, I do not wish him.

I do not wish anything bad for him at all.

I don't believe you. I think you, I, I, I really don't. I really wouldn't love for him to have a wonderful life. I think we both cheated each other. I really do.

“I think he could have had a much better existence and I could have, and we both messed up by.”

And so it's blowing you up. Is ending it? Is that the best shot? I don't. Okay.

This sounds terrible. I don't have one ounce of respect for him. Okay. Not one ounce. There's nothing that he provides our family that I need.

And I think he should work on his relationship with his kids and not worry about me. Okay.

Like you're, you've been divorced from him for a long, long, long time.

Long time. And your, your feeling of superiority over him is, yeah, it's going to be a tough shadow for him to heal out from underneath. Because you think he's so much better than him. I will not disagree because of the stuff that's gone on.

Okay. Yeah. I know that. I know it's off on me. No, you're being honest.

I want to, I want to honor you for being honest. For telling truth. Yeah. I, I think, I don't think that. Morely I'm a better person.

I'm just. I think you do.

I mean, you showed up for your kids and he didn't.

I would make a moral snap judgment on somebody in that situation. Yeah. And that's just many times.

“And that's why he said to me the other day when he called from rehab and said,”

you know, I called our daughter and she was just like, whatever. And she's very apathetic as well. My son is kind of like, well, just do what you got to do. And everybody. And he's like, he can't understand why we're all not like jumping for joy.

Patting him on the back. And it's like, we've been begging you for years. And so now that you were the one uncomfortable, now that you were the one struggling physically, and that's the only reason you chose to go. That's the reason you went, not because of us, not because your kids, not because of anything else,

because you were physically struggling. And the animosity baked into the stories you've made up about why he does what he does. What do you mean? Um, I guess having spent my whole career sitting with folks struggling with addiction, losing everything.

Man, I've gotten mad, and I've gotten pissed off, and I made some commitments to myself. I've got an addictive personality. I'm a pretty boring hang these days. Yeah. Because I've seen what it does on the other side.

Yeah. But man, if I, I just, I have nothing, but heart-breaking compassion for folks in the throws of addiction. Yes. And I have helped all my family members. Okay.

All of them. And I've helped him the exact same way I've helped them. Um, but right now, but listen to me, you're addicted to anger, and you're addicted to righteousness, and you're addicted to rage. And I'm telling you--

What I'm addicted to is the last three weeks have been the best three weeks I've had in a long time. Great. You've had peace. Yes. I'm not mad. I'm just, don't.

I'm too far past to go back to try to have a romantic relationship with him. Okay. And so, you know-- I think the fair thing, not the fair. When I'm going to talk about fair.

“I think a compassionate thing would do it to do.”

We'll be to let him know while he's surrounded by care and support. Okay. Okay. Because at least he could hear that news face-to-face from you, and then have a team of rehab specialists and sobriety specialists,

and hopefully mental and medical care. Mental support and medical care around him. Yes. Well, he metabolizes that. And by the way, part of treatment--

I don't want to hurt him. I don't want to hurt him. He doesn't want his life to be bad. I really don't. I know you think I do.

I promise you. I don't. I would love for him to go have a happy life. If he found somebody else and was thrilled and tickled, I would be tickled for him.

I don't have-- I don't hate him. I don't need to think. I really do wish the best for him. As long as it doesn't include me doing more work for him.

Okay. I'm burnt out. Yeah. I hear it. And I don't blame me for being burnt out.

I don't blame me for being exhausted. I don't blame me for being mad.

“So the best thing for me to do would be to tell him before he comes home.”

I can't tell you what the next right move is for you. This is too messy and-- Okay. And you're too mad. You're too angry.

I can tell you-- I promise I'm not mad. I promise I'm not mad. I am-- I can only tell you the most compassionate thing.

Okay. By the way, I assure you if that rehab program is worth its salt is an inpatient program. How long has he gone for? 30 days, 60 days?

45. 45. I promise you there'll be more self-loading going on in there than you can possibly wrap your head around. Oh, yeah.

And I don't want to add to it. I swear to God I don't. It's not about adding to it. It's not about adding to it. Okay.

Okay. It's not about that. He will have to learn. There are some things when it comes to making a men's. I have to make a men's to somebody.

Uh-huh. And I can't respond. I can't own how they choose to respond to it. And that might come with a ton of grief and heartache. Okay.

Gilt shame all that. What I'm telling you is the most compassionate thing for somebody is fragile its situation is. It would be to give him hard news while he's supported by care.

“And honestly, the most compassionate thing you could do would be to call his head person.”

The person in charge of the social worker in charge of his care. Okay. And say this is the decision I have made. I'm choosing this. Wins the best time.

Okay.

And you will not be the first person to have called the rehab facility to say I'm filing.

Okay. Yeah. Okay. That's what I wanted to know. Is it bad just to let him come back and stay status quo the way we've been for 15 years?

It will be impossible. Okay. He'll try to plug in. He'll try to connect which is what human beings do. Yeah.

And you will be shut off and he'll go right back to either the old addictive behaviors that covered up a home and a life in a self that he couldn't connect to or he'll find new ones. Okay.

“Well, that is exactly what I wanted to know.”

That is because like I said, if he can get sober and stay sober, there's nothing better in the world for my children. And so if I would be, you know, coming back doing the same old same old and that would throw him back into bad behavior, that's not going to help my children. Because they're finally old enough. They're 22 and 25. They know.

They're now adults. They can deal with it if parents aren't together. Hmm. I hate that it ends this way for you all. Well, I tell you why it.

We should have never gone married, but I did get my children out of it, so I'm thrilled with that.

I'm not shocked that it's ending this way. So that was my question is no, and you answered it. Don't come home to status quo because that if nothing changed. It's just honest. It's cruel.

Okay. Yeah. So yeah, I wish you guys the best in what you're doing. We'll be right back. Hey, let's talk about helix.

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With helix, better sleep starts right now. All right, we're back. All right, Kelly. Yes. Talk about that last call.

What do you think? I think she's just done. Oh, I think she made that clear. Yeah. But I don't necessarily see that she wants him to hurt him and anything like that.

“I think she's passed that, because there comes a point when you're angry and you want to hurt somebody.”

There's still a passion there. Yes. She has passed that point, because she has lived in twenty-five years. Yes, she co-created. Hundred percent. I think she took her responsibility for that.

Yeah. But it's to the point now where it's like, there comes a point when it's too little too late. When you've gotten to a point, you can't get passed anymore. That she's just done. Yeah.

No, I, I, I a hundred percent understand and agree with that. Um. What I, what I don't, what I struggle with is folks who, A, and what we talked about in the call. She asked her 14-year-old's permission.

I think that's never, that's a no-go.

I have a hard choice to make, and I'm going to put on my kit. Um. The call shifted. I, I felt chipped over time from, I can't believe he's doing this now.

“Who does he think he is after all these years of going through all this?”

Now he's going to go get well and healed and okay. And, and maybe there's a tension there between I'm, I'm anger now. Angry now. Why now? And also, when we have hard decisions to make, she looped all the way back to. We shouldn't have even gotten married.

Well, now we're in just some revisionist history. We're going all the way back, right? And at the same time, um, yeah, there's just a,

a cruelty to, I got so mad this many years ago that I decided I'm just going to plant my plant my flag in the ground.

My kids are going to baste in this. He's going to baste in this. I'm going to baste in this and I'm going to get matter and matter and matter and matter. And, um, to the point of, yeah, burning off the endings of all of my emotions and feelings to where I feel nothing. Except now I feel peace because he's out of the house. Which I have no debt, no doubt about that, right?

And so, I, I guess what, hate as I hate that it took, getting here. Yeah, I definitely agree. And, you know, I also understand the, you keep thinking it'll change and you keep thinking it'll change. And you look up into your 20 years of gone by, I get that. Right. And the kids are, you know, growing up and you're just trying to function and get through

and on a daily basis and she probably spent a lot of time getting between him and the kids and trying to make everything better. Yeah, it's been a mess forever. Yeah. And then, like you said, you look up and it's been 20 years and then it's like, now that I'm to this point now, you're getting help.

It doesn't make it right, but I can see her feelings if, like, seriously. Yeah. Now. Yeah. And the fact that I, you know, it's, it kind of sounded like based on reading her email that,

does he feel like, well, I'm getting help now.

“So everything will be better. And it's like, well, that's what people think day two and day three,”

right? And then they get into it. Hopefully it's a good facility and a good team around him. But you get into it and you realize, oh, no, no, everything is different now. And everything is revealed. Right. They slowly peel the cataract of the wake of hurt and pain and damage you've caused all those that love you and that you loved.

And that's a heavy overwhelming thing. I mean, that's, that's extraordinary. I just got a lot of compassion for people to carry that. And I have a ton of compassion for people who are trying to love people in the throws of addiction. It's a nightmare. It's a nightmare. Yeah. It's just messy.

Not every call in the show is happening. Is that tough one? It's a tough one. And on those moments when you don't know what to do or you're burned out or you're fried or you're anger, or whatever, or you're just done.

That's the moment when I think we have to be intentional about choosing compassion, choosing kindness, and choosing dignity even if other people haven't shown it.

I'm going to do the next hard, hard thing that I know is going to hurt you.

“But I'm going to do it in the most gracious compassionate way I can.”

And I'm not going to do another 20 years of choosing this life with someone I don't have any feelings for and blame you for.

So yeah, it's a tough one. Tough, tough, tough one.

Good call. Good pick, Kelly.

Way to bring up a room.

“Next show, Kelly's going to set me on fire just to see what it feels like.”

Love you guys, bye.