After the Iran War, After Orbán, Could There Be Hope?

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“I am David Rothkuff and I am joined by three veterans of the Peloponnesian Wars, including Rosa Brooks of Georgetown University Law Center, how are you doing, Rosa?”

And it's been a really long word, David. It really, it really has. And and we're loosing financial times, how are you doing it? Very well, thank you. Excellent, and we're joined by our friend, Tom Nichol, staff writer of the Atlantic. How are you doing? Go, go Athens. Go, I knew you'd take sides. I knew you'd take sides, and it is deeply Spartan.

Now I'm not Spartan. I'm very much not, but I like the, it's a good guess. It's a bad guess. All right, look, that's not the where I want to talk about. I want to talk about the other war. The war we've been talking about for the past 50 days also known as Trump's Fiasco. But I have a theory, and I'm going to float the theory, and then you guys can demolish it.

Tom, as our guest, we will allow you to demolish it first.

My theory is this. This is going to be over soon. We should start thinking about what it means when it's over, because Trump has run out of tricks. He doesn't want to do it anymore. Nobody supports it. He's tried to come up with solutions by forces that try to come up with, you know, intimidating and solutions. He's come up with a blockade. Nobody likes the blockade.

“And I think in the next couple of days, he's going to declare victory.”

Take a bad deal. Say it's a good deal. It'll put us in a worse position than we were before February 27th. Probably worse than what Rosa calls legit Apollo. And we'll move on to the next thing. Come on, I'm not here to demolish that.

I think that's right. I think he's bored. It didn't go the way he wanted it to go. And when that happens, he loses interest in things that don't work out for him. He just kind of moves on to the next thing and looks for the next sugar high.

So I think that's exactly what's going to happen today.

“But I think he's going to say, you know, I mean, we've got this blockade going”

that no one really seems to want to do or understand. I mean, the president said we're going to blockade everything and then sent calm, you know, now sense it well. Actually, we have a plan to do a certain thing that I'm sure Trump didn't listen to the rest of because he's unbreakable.

And yeah, I mean, I think now is going to be better worse than it was under japan. You know, they have a more radical. Unless you want to blockade. Thank you. You japan.

Yeah, well, we'll say japan. I don't live in DC anymore. But I still know how to talk in acronyms. You know, because at the end of the day, we got to run that up the flagpole and then touch base.

But I think, you know, they have a more radical leadership.

They've proven that the straight of four moves is actually a more powerful

lever than nuclear weapons. Trump didn't know why. Trump wanted to go into this for regime change. And when that didn't happen, David, I think you're a scenario. It's just a matter of time before he just got bored and walked away from it.

It's just a matter of when. And how much more damage to the economy. It's just a matter of when. And how much more damage to the economy. There's going to be before he does that.

Okay, good.

Let me ask you a quick follow up before I get to Ed and then Rosen.

You, you taught at the Naval Work College for many years. At many of the top admirals in the Peloponnesian Wars study down to you. And one of the, I was just wondering if at the Naval Work College they taught.

“How to do a double secret blockade of a blockade.”

No. And that's operations. I mean, I, I trust, you know, the Navy knows. Because right next to the Naval Work College, by the way, is the surface warfare officer school. And the chaplain school and the jag school.

So we're the big educational area here. And all those guys know how to do what, what they do.

What they, what we taught.

Much of the consternation of many people in Pete, Hexeth's office, who seem to think now that work Colleges are woken evil. We tried to teach officers how to work with civilian authorities to achieve the aims of national policy. By using, Rosen's been there many times.

You've heard us do it, you know, to apply all of the instruments of national power, including military force.

“By the use of a strategy to achieve the goals of national policy.”

Trump didn't do any of that. He said, go in and blow up a lot of stuff and send comes and we can do that. We, we have target lists. We know how to blow stuff up. Um, but then, how do you know when you're done?

Trump on day one, countin' on. He did what at the work college. We would call script writing. I'm going to do this. They're going to do that.

Then I do this and then the next thing that happens is that. Um, none of that happened. And I'll kind of went to crap right in front of them. And um, now he doesn't know what to do. So he, he violated some very,

um, um, fundamental strategic premises that we taught and teach at the war colleges around this country. Um, but I, I don't know who was around. I'm certainly Pete Hegseth didn't attend one. Um, you know, Dan Kane, I know, did I check. He went to the, um, command and staff college by a correspondence for the Air Force. So, you know, uh, but Kane's a sensible officer.

“I think the people around Kane are sensible officers.”

They know this, but in the end, the civilians decide. And they went off half cocked on a war that they, that they had no plan before. Okay. Um, Ed, do you've become the Trump whisperer you call him every weekend? You talked to him as he's wandering around Marilago or wherever he's wandering around. Um, uh, so you, you understand his psyche.

Do you agree that he's like over this? Uh, well, I, I tried him last weekend. And um, he didn't answer, so then I texted him and said, uh, this president said would lose from the F.T. Uh, again, could, could I ask you a few questions about the blockade?

And he texted back and said, "Could you send me some links to some of your articles?" And so I thought, "Oh, fuck." So, so much, so much for that friendship that you've been cultivating. Yet now I sent him, uh, I sent him the links to the news pieces.

I wrote up of the previous conversations I had with him, which course had no comment. And unfortunately, he saw through that and he sent another text. I could, I mean, to your columns. So I sent him links to a couple of columns.

You would think among other things that he has people who could do that for him, but then never mind.

Yeah, I mean, it gets curious and curious. Um, you weren't going to fool him with your British or tricks. Now, uh, this was a widely old, well, totally sort of sub-to-fuge failed on this occasion. Uh, and, um, he clearly read them, or at least at the first paragraph or the headline. Um, and, um, text it back in upper case, America is winning with stronger than ever before.

You're wrong to doubt me all in upper case and with more exclamation marks than I've had hot dinners. Um, and so we didn't end up talking, but I hope, you know, I hope he'll cool off. Um, and, you know, I knew this, you know, you and I talked about this as this was happening. You said, what's gonna happen when he actually reads my article. No, it just confused the issue by, you know, sending him some cute memes from the internet,

some funny gifts, stuff like that, just, and then try again in a couple days. So, what? Well, my latest column is about the caged fight between Vance and Rubio. And since Trump loves his underlings to be at each other's throats, that is, indeed, his lifelong management style. And it is really the instinctive managerial philosophy of any autocrat because, because they

bring him back to answering the phone. But in answer to your question, David. Um, yeah, he's flailing around for some kind of off-frame.

“Um, and, uh, I, I just, the question, I think boils down to,”

will his pride with stand, the sort of the general, co-blocking conclusion that this, this is something he could have got, he could have got a better deal on the Friday before on the 27th of February, in Geneva, when Wiccoff and Kushner, either did not know what the Iranians were offering them or had a brief to just torpedo it, regardless.

Um, and, and something that could quite well be worse than, um, what was achieved by, uh, in Jack Pub, um, in by, by Barack Obama.

Um, with his pride with stand that, because that's, that's ultimately what it boils down to.

I mean, the, the only real war on he's got left is I mean, the straightest war moves, which was opened before the war. We are in Addison Wonderland here, and getting into Trump's head is, I mean, I agree, we extend that, you know, we can do amateur psychology. He is bored, and he's frustrated, and he desperately wants an easy win like Cuba,

you know, Ontario. Um, but, um, I don't think he's probably kind of withstand this. And I think he's melting down, I know we're going right, I just want to say, I think he's, I think it's more than failing it. I think he's melting down. This weekend was scary. I mean, it was, that was a real psychic, you know, core, you know, core, reach meltdown.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the underestimated by a lot of people, but, you know, when, when anybody in your family starts comparing themselves to Jesus,

“you do stop and you say, okay, wait a minute, maybe you should take a few days off”

and you need something. This was within two hours of my text exchange, so I take full responsibility. [laughter] There's no better place than right here on the DSR network. And there's no better way to enjoy the DSR network than by becoming a member.

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“So, Rosa, what do you think of all this psychoanalysis?”

Uh, you know, it wasn't actually the Jesus posting that made me worry about this deteriorating mental state. Because we've actually seen that from him before or a variance of that, where he appears to be suggesting that he, in fact, has divine powers. It's that when he was reproached with posting an image of himself as Jesus, that he said, "Oh, he hadn't realized that that looked like Jesus.

He thought it was a doctor's uniform." That part that I didn't even give it. But, um, you know, here, I think he might be able to distract himself with some other fun thing. Like, trying to fire a Jerome Powell. Um, which will give him a couple minutes of diversion.

And obviously, he's building up to that. Um, I feel like the U.S. despite our diminished capabilities as a result of using up quite a lot. Our offensive anti-pensive weaponry in Ron. I feel that we could still beat Cuba if we absolutely had to. So that could very well be next.

Ontario, that really worries me. Um, please say this, please say that you are just doing this to mess with our Canadian friends. Um, but no, I, I mean, here's my big fear. Uh, it's, it is fun and accurate to say, Oh, Trump is a taco.

Um, he always chickens out.

Um, but I worry about the, yeah. I mean, God help me, right? I find myself wanting everybody to say, Oh, Donald, you are the piece maker. You know, it is within your power to bring world peace by, by merely saying benignly in your infinite wisdom that you forgive Iran and array.

the more his pride.

“It becomes, I really do have to wipe this civilization out just to make a point.”

Um, and he's the kind of man who would do that.

And the people around him are the kind of mostly men now since he's fired. The few remaining women, not that they were any. Um, you know, the man around him are the kind of men who would kind of say, Oh, well, gee, I, I, that does seem a little troubling, but Mr. President, if you say so, we'll just wipe out an entire civilization.

Uh, you know, he's surrounded by yes men. Um, uh, and, and his pride is hurt. And, you know, that's a dangerous situation to be in for the rest of the world, not to speak obviously of the United States. So it's about who who have to live with this guy for the next few years.

It's what he did with Harvard, by the way, when he backed off of Harvard. And then there was a big report in New York Times saying Trump climbs down. And then he said, Nope.

Now I want a hundred billion.

Now I want, you know, he went full doctor even 100 billion. You know, I mean, he just blockade Harvard square. Winrate Harvard, I will wipe it from the face of the earth. Well, let's, let's assume that we all figure out a way to play K&M. And we move on from this, and the day after this is over, we probably don't have,

you know, we have something which is less good than the February 27th, or jikpo or both.

“Um, but let's look at what, what, what is the world look like the day after this?”

Like who are the winners and losers? Tom, name a couple winners. China, Russia. Um, you know, North Korea. All the bad guys are winners.

Um, because, uh, you know, if the United States went into this. And then just, you know, like Rosa just pointed out just, you know, indiscriminately firing off all of the same condition. And then saying, Ah, screw it. Will, you know, we'll work something out in the straight, and we're going to go home.

Um, these, these guys are, these bad guys around the world are not like Trump. They have consistent goals. Trump is a goldfish. He darts from thing to thing. Um, but they're going to be, I mean, you can bet they're going to be case studies

in defense ministries and intelligence communities around the world of this five to six weeks that we're in now. Um, does, is Iran a winner? Well, they, you know, their country has been shattered. Um, but the regimes are winner. Uh, I said at the beginning of this, just, there's kind of weird parallels here with Ukraine that they win by just surviving.

Because no matter what Trump says, and we have to stop placating him when he says, well, we only, there's only one golds nuclear weapons. So this was a regime change work. And when you fail, this is a, when you strike at the king, you'd best kill him. Because if you fail in a regime change war, you get a more extreme regime that's going to be your enemy, you know, in an even more dedicated way.

So what is it, you know, who are the other winners and losers? Um, you know, the international economy is going to be a loser because now the Iranians have established. They are setting some of the rules now of the international economy.

And this is something I was, I was always trying to, you know, when you're trying to talk to Americans about,

why do I care about NATO or, you know, who control, but, you know, what does all that mean to me? And I kept saying, when other people are starting to set the rules of how things move around the world, you're not going to like it.

“And that's what's going to happen here. Is that now you're going to have China, Tehran, Moscow.”

Um, the, the Washington Brussels rules are going to get started to get pushed aside and in favor of, um, whatever, you know, Beijing and Tehran and Moscow can get and that's, that's, that's, that means America is a loser in this. Yeah, that seems pretty clear. Ad winners or losers, you would like to add to the list or underscore. I, I, I, I'm surprising, I agree with, um, everything Thomas said. I mean, what I would add to that is if you're looking, if, if you're a, if you're an investor, you're looking to make money out of this sort of geopolitical turmoil is pretty much indefinitely.

Well, that's what everybody's doing is, is, is the, is the financial time is doing a deal with Polly Market, yet or calcium, like the AP is and CNN. I'm sure the Atlantic will soon allow Tom to be there and like, you know, set betting lines on wars around the world. No, no, we, we have way tougher rules than the rules that apply to former senior democratic officials. So, no, we won't be, um, but the, um, I mean, what's the going to be a booming? There's a arms race going on globally. I mean, there's an arms race boom, invest in Ryan Metal.

I mean, it was, oh, an invest in alternative energy. It's one, one smart thing China has learned from Japan in the 1930s is not to depend on, you know,

oil imports from from from from the West or from the Middle East.

“Um, alternative energy is going to be a big boom time. I think investing like people like Lloyds of London insurance companies because premiums are going through the roof.”

They're not going to be coming down. They're a very good indicator of geopolitical risk.

Um, we're just all going to have to, you know, um, get a, a climatized to a world in which everybody's looking for well, where's the nearest checkpoint, you know, what leverage do I have?

And this is a zero sum wild. It's, and as Tom said, I think, you know, quite punchily, um, we will like good health, miss it when we've lost it. Yeah, no, no, kidding. You want to add any names to the list? Those are only Pakistan's having a moment in the sun and which they look like a bunch of elder statesmen, um, which not not a position Pakistan usually finds itself in. But, particularly one month after they were involved in a war with Afghanistan for no reason, but. Yeah, well, that war's for no reason is the new, it's the new cool thing.

Um, it's not all the cool kids are doing. Right. Well, let me, let me, let me posit you Rosa, a loser that we haven't mentioned here and then you can react to that.

“I think one of the big losers here is BB Netanyahu and the Israeli government.”

They pushed it, they own it. US public opinion has turned against them in a, absolutely stunning way that we would never have predicted.

You even have Jay Street, one of the two biggest sort of Jewish organizations in Washington, putting out a thing this week saying. No more subsidies for arms for Israel, no more automatic arms for Israel, big change. And just parenthetically in the midst of all of this and something I want to get to in a minute, what you talked to Tom.

“Victor Orban, who was Netanyahu's firewall in the EU, is done.”

And all of a sudden the EU, which doesn't feel so charitable towards Israel, is going to be able to impose some sanctions on them. So it looks to me like there to kind of weaker position posts. Yeah, who's firewall and Putin's firewall as well. So right, this is the one bright spot in global news. And the last week or so is the resounding electoral defeat of Warbonne and Hungary, which is a huge boom to Ukraine, to the EU in general, and to the forces of pro-democracy and good in a general way. It's interesting, I'd be curious to know your thoughts for all of you on whether Netanyahu and anyone in his government particularly cares about certainly, I don't think they care what J Street thinks.

They already think there are a bunch of lefties. You know, it's interesting. When we've asked our Israeli friends on this podcast, G doesn't bother Netanyahu that he is losing so many Jewish Americans, particularly younger Jewish Americans. The answer which initially came to the surprise me was, no, they don't care at all because they are banking on two things. One is continually support from even right wing evangelical Christians. Some of whom are supporting Israel because they believe in a lot of what once a part of time we would have quite lee referred to as lunatic fringe theories about the linkage between Israel and its success and the coming apocalypse, which they are quite enthusiastic about.

I'm not actually personally enthusiastic about that, but as long as they continue to support Israel, that Republican governments are going to continue to support it, and then the other thing of course is that they're banking on the fact that we will have a Republican government forever and ever and ever and ever. Right, just as Netanyahu apparently is Prime Minister forever and ever, never, never if he can kind of keep stringing things along and one diversion after another. So it's not particularly clear to me that they care that they have lost American Jews, who needs, who needs even.

Yes, I realize they were supposed to be the Jewish state, but who cares about American Jews if you can continue to count on your manga friends who for a reason sane or delusional, who will continue to support you. So I don't know, I'm, I have always found it's really politics impossible to fathom and I've also always found Netanyahu's own state of mind a little mysterious.

He just got the US to carry his water for him in a big way and while everybody's really distracted, you know, he is managing to accomplish all kinds of aims that would be top of the news were it not for our misforcians.

And instead it's sort of a little bit below the fall that's still obviously, you know, front and center, but it's not quite as much so that otherwise would be.

Well, Tom, you can answer that. I do want to point out that Israel has to have an election by October. So he has got, he's got some issues to deal with there. You feel free to address that, but one of the reasons I wanted to have you join us this week is I was interested in your views on what happened in Hungary. So take it neither order you will. Well, I, I think Rosa got it exactly right. I mean, I don't think they care. I don't think that in Israel, they care very much about this.

“Wars very popular in Israel. I think if anything, you know, that Yahoo and others are pissed at the Americans left and didn't, you know, continue this war and really push through and make it a regime change war because I think that's what.”

I think even to last June with that, you know, let's strike the nuclear sites. That was act one of let's change this regime.

And nobody wanted to say that out loud. And he has really couldn't do it by themselves, but pay thought if the Americans get in and then they get pulled in. It's not like Trump will do a one and done and then go home, which is exactly what he did. So now we have round two. And now once again, Trump is leaving another leaving a wounded furious Iran, which, you know, probably doesn't work out very well, but that that just, you know, Netanyahu's other main goal here is to stay in power and to stay out of legal trouble.

So as long as he can keep leveraging this to get that, I think, you know, I agree with Rosa, I don't think they give a rat's, but what Jay Street or anybody else over here is really thinking about it, especially because of that very odd kind of intersection with the apocalyptic Armageddon wing of maga. What happened with with Orban, I think, you know, I have these endless arguments with younger people on social media, who are all doom and gloom and nothing can ever stop and the elections are going to rig that everything's jerrymandered.

And we can't ever beat these guys and I'm like, well, this proves that if you show up and big enough numbers.

You, you know, I'm sure Orban had a whole bag of tricks that he was going to dump out if this thing had been, you know, 55 to 45 even 60 40. You can't try and pull that crap when you lose literally every county in the country and buy a significant margin. So rather than, you know, try to, you know, I mean, really his only option at that point was martial law, repression or violence or something. He just wasn't going to happen. And if he had tried that, it would have been Hungary's own, my done, you know, on steroids.

“I mean, it would have been a terrible mistake and I think he's a smart enough politician to know it.”

And instead, they chose the honorable thing, which was to concede and start shredding documents. So, you know, I think it really showed. I think it's also, it's an important bell weather because for the past 10 years we've been all imbibing this, this doom, this sour wine that just tell that just kind of makes your head spin and says the global right is on the march and it is unstoppable. No, it's not, and it is unstoppable. It's not on the march, and it is unstoppable.

I mean, just think 10 years ago, when you were looking at similar authoritarian regimes in Brazil, impolent, which people forget about, which had to be turned back. And now the granddaddy of them all, the guy that everybody thought was just going to have to be carried out of his office and a box had to call and neatly resign.

“So I think it's a great day for democracy.”

I ignore all the doomers who say, "Well, you know, my jar is a, he's a center right, he's conserved." You know, who cares? He's committed to democracies, committed to transparency. You know, Hungary's internal political arguments are far another day. That's good news for Ukraine, it's good news for NATO, it's good news for the EU, it's good news for democracy everywhere.

And I think it really does undermine, I think the biggest thing that comes out of this is that, as anybody stays political science, you know, we also say authoritarian regimes are absolutely untouchable and stable until they're not.

Yeah, no question about it.

And when you look at what's happened though in Europe, Hungary was this impediment because Europe has this kind of, everybody's got to go along with it where we can't do anything kind of structure. And on, you know, wherever much there is, he is explicitly said, "I'm pro-democracy, I'm pro-EU, I'm pro-NATA." And that changes the equation on those things and on Ukraine in a very substantial way. And, you know, Europe may not be able to count on the US, but it does look like it's going to be more cohesive going forward.

I mean, even a little more cohesive the other day because Maloney also told Trump to buzz off. Let's see, Tom's feeling a little good, he's put down the sour wine, I don't know what he's drinking, but he's a little happier.

What are you in the president?

Yeah, don't go. I happened to be his rather ill-timed one week vacation last week. I'm ill-timed from the point of view of events in Washington don't go on pause. But any week, any week off his ill-timed by that measure. And part of the vacations we dropped in, we were in Belgrade in Serbia. And I went to see, I mean, seriously.

“I just got asked. I just got asked. What the heck, you couldn't get a room in Tirana?”

I mean, I know what you're thinking, how come Ed gets to spend his free time with Balkan dissidents when they're asked to listen forced to lie on the beach. And I will deal with your envy later. This guy, the director of the University of Belgrade is the de facto sort of chief dissident. He's the Peter Madger potentially of Serbia. And this was three days before the election. Absolutely on 10 to hooks, because the outcome of that election was so important to the future of Serbia.

And the future of, you know, forces as Tom was pointing out in many other places, Georgia being a very good example. And of course, in terms of morale to the whole MAGA firmament. We cannot forget J.D. Vance's intervention in that election in which he accused Brussels of unprecedented foreign interference in a domestic election. And added Zelensky to that charge sheet. While he was foreign interfering, while he was foreign interfering with the sort of the Hutspa of the guy.

But also the complete sort of failure of his and Trump's mission to prop up this incredibly important figure in the conservative world. Who's, you know, been the star of CPAC very much the model pupil for the Heritage Foundation with its project 2025. This is what we want to be. This is the illiberal democracy that we aspire to. And so this is a very important moment way sort of outside beyond the size, modest size of Hungary.

And it does coincide with the moment, where because of the Greenland, you know, Kaffafal. And because of Trump's hatred of NATO, Europe has been pretty much uniformly refusing to help Trump with this Iran war.

“And even Trump allies, like Georgia Maloney, as you pointed out David, Nigel Farash, who this week was asked, you know, don't you have a close relationship with Trump?”

You guys, well, yeah, I know him, but it doesn't really matter. That's what he said. He's like, oh, yeah, that's in one of the twice in a row. It's not like Trump's anything. Trump Trump, who?

Exactly. Like Donald was it Donald?

Yeah, just amazing machetes natural charisma wasn't able to carry.

Yeah, it's a miracle, who didn't think. And now in a pissing match, I didn't mean to interrupt that, but that they're still, it goes on. I mean, the one thing in all of this that we ignored is the president and the newly converted Catholic vice president who has written a book on how important this conversion is is a pissing match with the Pope. Yeah.

“And had, and had, just to pick up on Ed, Ed, I got a tear in the corner of my eye, or a moment ago, when Ed, after fortunately after, you know, twelve years on this podcast, pronounced Hutsbap properly with this efficient amount of, huh?”

And, but it brings me back to Hutsbap here because JD Vance, three years into being a Catholic, has had the Hutsbap to go to the Pope and say he really needs to study theology more closely.

It's not.

“But the best part of this JD lecture is he says that the Pope doesn't understand just where the just war tradition, which, of course, was established by saying a gustan,”

or an early Christian writing, and he's telling this to the first Augustinian Pope, the guy that had, had of Augustinians for ten years.

It means those to Algeria to honor Augustine, and at just war theory specifically says, the only just war is if you are attacked and you defend yourself. If you take up the sword to defend yourself, and of course, that's the opposite of what we did, but sorry Ed, I was, I, I want to hear more of your Yenish.

“No, no, I, I think you, you will, you will just acquire the taste for interrupting me, so I think you should ask rise or a question.”

Oh, well, I was going to, I was going to end with a question for Rosa, the question that I, I've asked for years and, and it, it always goes a ride.

You want to hear me say, Oh, it's pop. Oh, Jesus Christ, what is with all this mission? Oh, it's mission. Oh, it's gone on here. Yeah, well, all this Michigan, so particularly, when Rosa has a little bit of mishpooka, who should have been able to teach her how to pronounce this shit, but in any event. Let's settle that aside, Rosa. I'm going to try again. I try on a regular basis.

It's one of my losing battles, Tom, because on a regular basis, we also say, Rosa is this a constitutional crisis yet, and she goes, no, it's not.

But, but, and we've been through that a lot, but here's another one. Rosa, you got to be feeling pretty good right now. I mean, Thomas, like, talk it, you know, this orbond thing is a good thing. So I'm just going to put this word behind it, and it could well be the year where orbond loses net nyon who loses, and the Republicans lose control of the house in the Senate, and it is a huge pushback to the right wing F no nationalist movement that has been the bane of the world's existence for 10 years. This is great. You're feeling good. Rosa.

No optimism. I can I can salvage a little reason to feel depressed from this wave of great news. Well, I mean, never, never mind back that the war in Iran is is still a catastrophe, even if it's a catastrophe that we hope will end soon or rather than later. But I here's my I would love it for the Republicans to be crowned to the midterms that could happen, but I don't think I worry a lot about people getting complacent because, you know, Trump and his buddies are working. And I think they're darned us to make sure we don't have free and fair midterms. So I don't think we can automatically assume that just because increasingly the only Americans who do not dislike Donald Trump and the Republican party, you know, are our ones who've been like living in the mountains and in cabins with no communications for the last several decades.

I don't think we can them automatically assume that that fact automatically translates in a normal way in the way it would in under a normal administration into electoral defeat for his party.

“So I think we need to continue to act as if we're in a crisis and unprecedented assault on democratic institutions in the rule of law in the US, which we are.”

I think you to act on the assumption that they they're going to try every dirty trick possible including AI fuel disinformation campaigns to suppress the vote and challenge any vote that goes against them in ways lawful and unlawful. But for one single second start treating that as a project that's anything other than urgent so that that's one thing the other thing and this. I let's say we have a semi normal election or as an hungry the the opposition to the GOP is just so overwhelming that even the various dirty tricks that they will undoubtedly try are insufficient to stay off a serious defeat in both houses of Congress that would make me happy.

Do I trust the democratic party my party not to then screw things up so badly over the over the year and plus that will come as to jeopardize any possibility of additional electoral defeat for the Republicans in 2028. So I do not trust the metal. I think that the record of the democratic party in capturing the hearts and minds of the American people in recent years has has not been great. I see no reason to believe that that has changed and I think that anybody who is either a Democrat or a Republican who has drifted away from their former party needs to dedicate themselves to a friendly takeover in the democratic party in an effort to make it a little bit less fucked up.

It was constructive and it offered a pathway to positive outcome and that's probably as as good as we're going to get out of frozen.

“So I'm I'm super grateful for that. I'm super grateful to the three of you joining us at this fraught moment and offering insight and levity in the appropriate proportions.”

Thank you Tom. Thank you Ed. Thank you Rosa. Thank you everybody for listening join us for everything we've got every day multiple times a day. Here if you are getting this as a podcast and go to the DSR network to come you want to be a member you can click there be a member if you're not and you want to subscribe and get this into your inbox the fastest way or subscriptions are growing.

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“So do that come back join us again. See you guys soon bye bye.”

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