NTK: The Good News for Democrats

Hello and welcome to the need to know I am David Roskuff and I am joined this week by

two of our best friends, smartest people, perfect people, to celebrate July 4th with Tara McGowan of career newsrooms and everything associated with that and Simon Rosenberg, the perver of Hopeiam and constantly. You know the Hopeiam product, I have to say every day there's new data in it that is encouraging and useful for anybody who is interested in the fact that just four months from now,

“there's a presidential election and so you know I think mid-term election day after the mid-term”

start of the presidential election, but put down your cupcakes and your hamburgers and your

octons and because we really need to talk about this and I'm so glad to have you guys here because honestly when you guys come we can provide an antidote to the tsunami of political bullshit that a lot of us here and you know what I've been reading just stay in and day out and I've been on TV shows where they're talking about it and so of you guys is oh the Democrats are in big trouble because there's some Democrats who believe some

things you know that are progressive and there are other Democrats who are more

centrist and that means the Democrats are not together and I was like at what point was

“unanimity one of the objectives of the Democratic Party and isn't it better if you have”

a national party to be able to roll out people who are better for the constituencies they are supporting but you know maybe I'm just old-fashioned I'm a boomer you know and you know the boomers are completely discredited you guys represent you know next generation perspectives Tara are you this worried about the fact that there is vibrancy and new faces and let's talk about leading questions in the Democratic Party as some of these people

are no I'm delighted by it I love a primary season in the Democratic Party and especially this one this one has been quite fun so far it'll it'll be chaotic but it's important but something that has been consistent at least in my life in political career is that legacy media loves a Democrats in disarray story much more than they've ever cared for Republicans in disarray story and the pettier Democrats love to leverage that desire by the media

and so it just it's you know it it's it's a feedback loop that's I find to be equally frustrating I think as you do David but also I think it's healthy it's a healthy sign of a healthy party that there are debates and disputes and it'll make you know it'll it'll it'll make for a

“stronger party overall and hopefully a stronger bench of candidates and I think that's what we're seeing”

I also you know have my days where I can't wait for the primary season to be over so everyone can get back on the same team because the inviting can be really really pretty and really frustrating but again I think it's it's part for the course at least we are not the side that is all just kissing ring of a convicted sexual abuse or rapist corrupt commander in chief well you know thank goodness for that that's a there is a but that's a positive July 4th spin I would rather be

us than them yeah well yes um it's and now Simon I you know I've read some of what you've written about this and I have found it and I'm gonna miss miss character as what you said but go for a David well no but I'm found it really the right way to look at it which is at least what I'm getting from what you're writing is that the Democrat party has evolved that we're growing that we are changing and that this is part of the natural growth of a

vibrant party that's going through generational changes responding to political changes respond et cetera et cetera et cetera and that seems you know describing this as a healthy friend appeals to me and and maybe I'm mischaracterizing what you said no I I this exactly what I wrote today and what I talked to my community about less in our weekly gathering last night um is that you know

be to make it not just new or different but better and better is the key here right we have to become stronger better more effective govern more effectively um and that that processes is inherently

“messy in a democracy right because as you pointed out they're the key for me and all this is”

that I I call embracing the rainbow which is that you know we have a very big tent party now from Abigail Spamberger to the AOC from Plattener to Boy Cooper right and that's the way it has to be and in a democracy the whole premise of a democracy is that you bring together in a Congress disparate voices who have different views and try to create sort of a rough consensus among them that process of creating a rough consensus or e-plower of a student right from many one

is is the is the fundamental act of a democracy and so I think we have to as Democrats we should be comfortable with diversity of all kinds and embrace it because we don't know what the right way is and what works in one state may not work in another and we should be humble to realize that we need this kind of experimentation that's happening and this challenging of the of the old ways that is so necessary for us to grow into something better than we are so yeah I'm

I'm optimistic and if I can say one thing David on that is that what's also true and this is

“really important because I think this is the most important political news the week is the new”

time in Fox News released a whole series of polls in the background senate states and what's remarkable is that we're competitive you know the senate could flip I mean it's it's a long shot you know or it's sort of it's a bank shot whatever you want to call it but we now have polls that are not democratic polls times in Fox News where shared rounds ahead and you know Turek is ahead in Iowa

and James Tela Rico is tied in Texas and Mary Petola is basically tied in Alaska and Cooper

is way ahead in North Carolina also was way ahead in Georgia Platner is competitive in Maine he's up in one poll down in another and if we had sat here six months ago nine months ago and one of there were our talks and I said you know we would we would be ahead and have candidates ahead in all these battleground states that trump won by 13 15 points you would have laughed at me right because it would have been an overdose of hope yeah at that point right if we had done that

but we're an incredibly strong position right now in this election and we can't lose sight of that in all the intermural debates and discussions that are happening writ large we're doing really well and we have to stay focused and close strong in these next four months one of the things that I'm sensing and the pushback is is Republicans try to find their pattern you know and so I mean today we had a ludicrous example of it but I'll toss it out there you know it's going to

be a hundred and ten degrees in New York City and Mayor Mamdoni put out a little social media post saying that people should stand or try to stay cool and maybe set their thermostats at 78 degrees so that people don't have a blackout in New York City which is what people in government do and immediately Lindsay Graham and you know Ted Cruz and all these others said this is communism you know and even though day by the immediately then of course people dug up

the fact that they posted the same kind of things in past circumstances but there is this desire to say well these people are communists or these people are anti-semites you know even though you know 80

percent of the Democratic Party has the same view on Israel 80 percent and it has and 80 percent of the

Jews of the same as you but that looks they're trying to find these old kind of wedge formulations

“Tara how do you think they're doing at that is it work and should we be worried?”

No I actually think that it is having a backlash effect I think it's it's having the opposite effect of what they want I think it's emboldening the supporters of these candidates we are in a very very different political moment than we were in 2016 when Bernie Sanders built a very massive formative political movement we're in a different movement moment than we were in 2020 when the candidates looked very different but Bernie was still very competitive and Elizabeth Warren

was incredibly competitive in that primary race now the progressive flank of the Democratic base is kind of the only one politically that hasn't been put in charge and everyone else that has has failed in some way or another and that's not to say that for instance Biden's administration

wasn't absolutely incredible in historic in a lot of ways we've talked about that extensively here

or Obama's administration did not do some really powerful things but the majority of this

have seen a path for them to become economically secure never mind prosperous to be able to buy their

own home to be able to pay off their student loan debt to be able to afford to go to college and so meanwhile you know there's all of this chaos everywhere that they have experienced and I really do think we are at a huge turning point in this country and I think there's a lot of folks within the Democratic Party who are very averse to acknowledging that we are at this turning point and in need for a entire political realignment not just within the party but writ large because

of the aggressive corruption and lawlessness and abuse of power that we have seen under this administration

“and so I really really believe that that's why I think that this primary cycle in particular”

is very very rich in this conversation over the Democrats are a mess and the inviting is also a

little bit humorous because this is a high, high, high, high stake site over the future of this country and I think that we expect the Republicans to come after right the more progressive Democrats like Zoron. We do expect some of this interests but I would say that some of this interests Democrats, the pundits and elected we have Jamie Harrison who used to run the Democratic Party not very well by many people's opinions we have James Carville we have folks out there we

even have folks like Governor Shapiro in Pennsylvania that are being asked about this, you know,

Mamdani effect every candidate basically so far that Mamdani as endorsed has won against

Democratic incumbents and in open primaries not just in New York we're also seeing those types of candidates win in places like Colorado and other states we're hearing these folks say the same tired messages about how these folks can't deliver or aren't aren't able to actually deliver on their policies they are radical or they are fringe to some degree it's just not true with what we're seeing with Mamdani at least and I don't think it matters to voters who are desperate for a

different way and a different path forward and different kinds of leadership that can really rise

“to this moment so I think it's a really important high stakes debate that is happening and I think”

what we're seeing is that the voters are going to decide the Democratic Party is the Democratic voters it is not Democratic Party leadership it is not committee leadership it is not Chuck Schumer and Hitcheen Jeffries the party is made up of the voters who turn out and decide who their candidates are they want to run and the issues they champion and I think that's going to do a lot of the work for us to be able to get our country back so you know I've got my opinions as each of us do

about some of these people you mentioned and I'll admit it some of them are not such flattering opinions but but I want us to try and stay a little bit on the theme that I opened with and I want to try and stay a little bit positive and that's because I'm noticing something else and that is what I look at Mamdani or Spanberger or Gretchen Whitmer or Josh Shapiro or James Taloreco I'm seeing something very similar not something very different they're all talking

about listening to what voters want and finding a way to provide it and Gretchen Whitmer and Josh Shapiro they're calling it get shit done Democrats right Mamdani on a Sunday show last week when asked about being a socialist said you know it's not abstract anymore I've got a record you can look at the six months we're filling potholes we're keeping rents down we're providing education for people in child care and so forth it's about governance and you know at the end of the

day I have a pretty simplistic view of this Trump one because he recognized the American people thought the system was rigged and it wasn't working for them they wanted an outsider I think that's

“why Obama won ultimately I think that's why whoever is going to win this time around is going”

to win because the system is rigged it isn't working for people and they want political leaders who are going to listen to them here what they're saying and then credibly offer way to solve some of the problems and so it's not left or center right or progressive or democratic socialist it's about solving real people problems in real time now Simon you're Mr. Hopeiam and I do Polyana it's about no I think it's a I think it's an interesting formulation that you just

we're going to hang together and we're going to hang separately right I mean we have to our

party and our family needs to stick together here as we have these internal discussions and debates and and I I want to just echo David what you've said in a slightly different way which is that I've had the luxury and I hope you have I've interviewed every major candidate for the house in Senate who are in battleground states and districts in the last couple months and so I've spent time with every single one of them and listen to them talk about how they're running

“and you're right that there is this sort of deep groundedness I think in the narrative and”

story that candidates are telling the cycle about the need to provide healthcare and get prices down and really deliver the basic stuff for everyday people who feel betrayed and have been left behind and it's been it's been remarkable how earnest and powerful the languages from the candidates that I've been you know hearing from from all over the country including in places like Iowa but the second thing that I think is emerging and I think there are going to be different

streams in the river you know feet into the river right there's going to be you know the

mandami mandani stream I always say with the second am I have to correct myself every time

and then there's going to be this there's this other stream I think emerging in these state in these places that are more Republican that we have to win this time because weren't competing in states and districts that trump won by 1315 points and were being competitive and those candidates are often running on what I call politics of virtue and what I mean by that is that they're presenting themselves as servant leaders as people who are do good for their communities they're

Lutheran ministers they're firefighters you know their doctors they're served in the military and that they want to continue this service in a different way and that when you hear from these

folks you have admiration for them right they're admirable people they've done remarkable things

Josh Turek right who's a Paralympian and gold medalist and and has you know been able to

“build a life for himself as somebody who's buying a bit for the I think I'm saying that correctly”

and I think there's an as an as an as an anado to trumpism the corruption the and just the ugliness of trumpism the moral breakdown that's happened on the right there's sort of this new politics of virtue I call it where people recognize that they need to do right by their neighbors and they need to fight for them with everything they got and and that they're going to do it and and it's very kind of uplifting frankly and it feels David different like when we talk about a new

party that's emerging this is one of the streams I think that are flowing into the this new river of the of a new party that I think is really is lifting me up and giving me hope that what we're building is something better than what we are are you worried Tara about canter veiling trends within the party you know that we may not get there we may not realize this potential or do

“feel that momentum is on the side of ending up in the right place I think momentum is on the side of”

ending up at the right place but I don't I think it's going to be a struggle right like we we are going to have unity again when the primaries are over and then we're immediately going to launch into a presidential primary conversation and you know everything that we're talking about about the inter party debates and struggles and differences even though there's a lot of unity in terms of positions etc are going to be at the forefront again and that has to be navigated

smartly and I think that there is a question of you know what the role of the party is and I do I am I think I said this consistently on this show in another place is I'm far more worried about 2028 than 2026 I for a number of reasons because we do actually need a really strong unified front and that doesn't mean we don't need and will have and should have a very competitive and dynamic primary process but but we're up against incredibly corrupt lawless kind of evil people

and and they are not going to leave quietly and we already know that they're trying everything they can to rig the elections by any and all means possible this time around we know that that's in a current 2028 and so I am I am a little bit worried about some of the sticks in the mud in the democratic party that are not as keen to evolve that are without saying as much protecting their own status and power and relationships at the cost of that kind of unified front that is

really really centering what voters want and what they're feeling and what they're telling us but I do I do think that it is going to net out because I do believe that the that the voters

the best in this particular moment. So Simon yes sir always so good with the numbers

when I give you a number that I heard today that I find a little troubling and I may have it slightly wrong but something like this political scientists you know analysts think that with gerrymandering with structural differences and so forth there's kind of an embedded advantage that the GOP has of about 4% and the Democrats are kind of net up 6% right now and what I look at 6 minus 4 it seems really razor thin tonight it doesn't it doesn't seem quite as optimistic

as I it it sounded a couple months ago yeah I and I'm just I'd be interested in how you're to yeah I mean it there's let me try to I'm going to give you a real answer to this question because it's important because there's just a lot of stuff up in the air number one is that you know we have we've had a lot of elections in the last year and a half and there's been a remarkably consistent set of outcomes that have happened you know where we've been overperforming our

“2024 numbers by you know a 10 12 13 points I think the average is 13 points we saw what happened”

in November elections last year or we sort of blew it out in the November election so we actually have a lot of live fire experience of what happens when a Democrat in Republican face off against each other in all regions of the country and all sorts of elections and we do really well and you

know by by you know a higher margin than what you're describing right the second thing is that

in the polling that I've described earlier in the Battleground States our candidates are running 10 12 14 15 17 18 points ahead of Kamala Harris consistently in all these Battleground States which is a very similar number to our overperformance that we've seen in all these other elections and and what often happens in an election like this and in what could be a way of election is that things break against the incumbent party as we get closer to the election and

“people start making up their mind right and the truth is almost all these Republican candidates”

of we're seeing their polling numbers are at 44 45 46 and the conventional wisdom is that

if you're in incumbent and you're in the mid 40s that late breaking vote always breaks against you

and so I do think there is a difference between the congressional generic which is you know who are you going to vote for Democrat Republican versus the polling we're getting when named candidates are being named and it's not an abstract question between Democrat and Republican but you're having to make an actual decision among two candidates those numbers are much better than the generic and the generic will likely shift to this reports in our in our favor over the next

four months if you know as is what is usually the case it would be better for us I think and what I have recommended to our leaders is that I think it's important that they lay out a clear agenda about what they're going to do when we're back in power so that voters have more

“information to understand where the Democratic Party is going I think it would have been I think”

it should have come out by now already it could be four or five points we can debate it all day about what it should be but I think we do need to give people more of a reason to vote for us and not just to vote against Trump but right now I'm pretty comfortable with where things are day but I think the big things I'm scared about right then I'm worried about they're going to have more money than us for the first time in a long time because of their corruption and because of the way they've

partnered with oligarchs and I don't think we know what that's going to really be like and the second thing is I think Trump is going to continue to try to do everything he can to prevent there from being a peaceful transfer of power and a fair and free election in November and we can't discount the significance of that either but I think that you know we're better we're in better shape today than I think anyone thought we would be who does this election stuff six months ago

but we still have four months and you know a lot of things can happen and we need to close strong and stay very focused on on taking advantage of the opportunity that's in front of us hey it's David and I hate to interrupt the podcast but I want to tell you some exciting news we are now on sub-stack through sub-stack we're going to be able to provide you with even more benefits including live street episodes access to new content ways to save money and getting content

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house that there is every reason to expect Mike Johnson will just say we're not you know there's a problem with these we're not going to see and and all of a sudden we end up in son of protracted constitutional prices but let me shift the subject to another one that we've

“been talking about for a couple of years now because you know I thought of you the other night Tara”

I do often you know you're just an indelible character but but I was watching this Netflix biography of Roosevelt and Frank the Roosevelt not the one that Trump was talking to yesterday I heard it was a little disturbing but but but but anyway there it was it was

interesting to me because you know it's it started at one point it said you know he was the first

candidate to use a car to campaign in for obvious reasons but it then really went into this kind of watershed this media watershed moment where during the depression when he became president he said I'm going to use the radio to talk to people and because of the nature of his voice and the the ability he had to make people feel like he was talking directly to them he used this new medium in a way that transformed politics and provided the core the basis of his presidency

and happened to be tied to his message which was a government that works for the people which

was a brand new message in America it was always government who works for this leader that

elite but it was never really the government needs to take care of people right and you know John of Kennedy he kind of got it he ran in the 1960 and and he became the first candidate to understand TV and you know he was cool Nixon was hot Nixon was sweaty Kennedy got and you know it was a watershed moment and you know I would say to some extent in the early days of social media Barack Obama got the vibe of communications at the time better than anybody else

“certainly I think the thing that people ought to be looking at with Mom Donnie that they're not”

is that I've never seen anybody who gets it better than he gets it in terms of using

streaming content platforms which are the primary means people get their information to communicate with them and you know A.O.C. there's some others who are good at this but this seems like a kind of a watershed issue and I've seen you know Josh Shapiro's obviously got a political consultant who said hey Josh why don't we do some streaming content and then he's like hi fellow kids I'm walking you know and it's like you know it's not working for him but

but I'm just you know this is gonna be a very very very different media atmosphere and by the way you know that there I'm sorry I'm gonna just take 30 seconds more here there are a couple of anomalies and the way things are working at the moment which I find interesting all the rich guys around Trump are buying up legacy media at precisely the moment legacy media doesn't mean it so it's like oh congratulations Mr. Allison you now own something that's worth dramatically less than it

on Monday or Tuesday it said yeah you can give us much money as you want and the party can

spend it however it wants but but I kind of sort of think that's it's like hey congratulations you've won this thing which is not an advantage anymore do you see what I'm saying in other words just you know we're at a moment where how you communicate how that's funded how that all works it's just different and just one of you it absolutely is I'm so glad you brought up the Supreme Court case two because I've been thinking about that quite a bit because what I'm frustrated

by about that though is just how much more resources it could potentially give to the Democratic Party and party leaders to put them on the scale but your point is exactly right David that like will that make as much of a difference as a candidate who's extraordinarily proficient and native in their ability to communicate to people where they are and how they get their information and it really I love that you you brought up FDR's fireside chats because I do think

that we're in another one of those watershed moments and it's funny to think about oh Bama having been kind of another leader in pioneer and digital communications and authenticity and I he that was my first digital job in politics was working on his digital team for his reelection and now like

he's still an amazing obviously historically amazing communicator but he's a little stiff and doesn't

know all the things the kids do now right you put him and Zoron together on a video and Zoron's

“so much more relaxed and in self and and that's what it takes because that ability now means”

that also somebody can go from completely unknown like Zoron was into a national and global figure within a matter of weeks or months. Well I just I interrupted he would he also does and Rose felt that this too is he goes from being unknown to being somebody in your life like a you know a part of your family in your you know in your circle of you know your digital community that's right you have you feel like you know them you have this personal relationship but

them you then trust them because you've not only just seen him talk about affordability in New York or shovel the sidewalks you've seen him jump into a pool with kids like all within like a matter of a week or days right you've seen him in all of these different spaces because he really is

everywhere where people are getting their information in the way that he has he's just basically

made it integrated into his work every because he understands that communication is more than half

“the battle you have to deliver on stuff but when you're bringing people along on that journey”

they are more willing to also let go if some things don't work out right um over time because they're seeing everything happen in real time they're with you on that process AOC is also a transformative at that about really breaking down what's happening in congress and making people feel like they can have a conversation and they can feel smarter about what's going on in a way that legacy media or generous like you know the candidates and the elected officials that wanted to be president

from the time they were children they just don't do they don't bring they don't bring people along with them and that parasocial relationship is what builds trust it isn't just being your authentic self it's actually providing so much of that authenticity and that dialogue too your constituents or to the voters and I do think it's changed the entire dynamics of our politics in a way where like you know if you really want to win you've got to figure out how to dish your consultants and

figure out the folks that are going to help you have a very very strong flood the zone content game that is authentic to you not you trying to be something that you're not and and that defies your ideology or whether you're you know more to the left of the center or Republican or or Democrat and yet it's interesting that we're kind of seeing the lines fall of the candidates that are

“much stronger communicators and more native in the way you need to be today that are younger”

more diverse and thus not some of the more establishment and source candidates so I think it's going to be interesting it's going to play a big role it's also why off and say we don't know who the you know the the tough contender on a left for the presidential nominee is because it could be someone none of us have ever heard of and they could you know pull a mom Donnie and become famous within a matter of weeks taking advantage of a moment you're absolutely right although

I know it's John us but let's set that aside okay okay fine well both now okay I got to tell you that to me is a no lose proposition but in any event it's setting aside the joking Simon one of the reasons I love to talk to you is nobody is a student of what's going on

you're picking people you think deserve support um everything that Taurus said of course just now makes a lot of sense to me and when you see a mom Donnie or you see a Taloreco or you see a John Also for you see an AOC where you see to some extent you know Graham Platner I got some added or about or um what's the guy in Michigan the Senate candidate also yeah yeah I'll say they get it they get it and and I'm just wondering you know four months from reality elections going to be over and we're going to be going here

the case studies of how you win an American politics today now those are always wrong right because you know

we came out of the 2024 election and it was oh everybody has got to be Joe Rogan you got to everybody's got to get into the Joe Rogan show and you got to appeal to the stupidest ass falls you possibly can otherwise you can't wait right but I'm just wondering what are you seeing out there who are

“you seeing where you think they get when Taurus talking about well I you know I think it's I”

listened to every word I always learn from Tara that's one of the reasons I love to do this show with you guys I think that there's a difference between running for the house and Senate and then being the mayor or running for president in terms of people's expectations of how much they're going to let you into their lives or want to let you into their lives right and and I and it it's I think that most people don't really want to hear from their congressman every single day I don't know

that that's really and also they're not just doing enough white talking is doing such a great job well it's also right and it's also not they're not interesting enough people in some cases right for you to spend that kind of time with I mean my daughter's kind of this unique remarkable character who's created this thing that he's built but I I do think in the presidential this is really gonna matter right this is gonna be hugely important I agree David with your kind of

harkening back to TV and radio and this kind of these landmark I mean with Obama it was really the internet less social media right I mean it's it was you know social media so it came later in the Obama thing and now where it's sort of the apology of the of the of the social media thing and but I do think that your point is that he's reinvented the form and that it is people will have to follow in order to be relevant I totally agree with that and

and and it is it's in some ways an enormous gift he's given to the democratic party because he's taught us and showed us what to do and so others can follow him and and I do think

“that twenty twenty eight when I look I'm very excited about the twenty eight election I think”

the primary that we're gonna have I think it's gonna we've got great candidates I have no idea who's gonna win I don't have a favorite I have a lot I like all of them frankly and I think we're

going to have an incredible debate about our future we're also going to see enormous tactical

evolution and and this is why these kind of big primaries and the presidential race is so important for for helping a party regenerate and we didn't we didn't have a lot of primaries you know right we didn't have you know the Bernie Hillary thing was not really a traditional primary I mean we haven't had these big primaries very often in recent years and I think it's been part of what's held us back a little bit as a party in terms of innovation I think we're going to see a lot of

innovation I'm really excited about it and I'm what I'll say about this cycle you know what what the

“sort of you're you're gonna I want to I'll do this really quickly sort of the one of the big”

innovations of this cycle is people actually going into communities with their bodies and talking

people to people face to face there is what is amazing to hear from the candidates that I

have been speaking to is how much retail politics they're doing and how they're going to places that haven't seen a Democrat in 20 years they are going to the cafe and sitting down and talking to 20 people and some of this is also the post-COVID thing some of this is just like people want to go be connected in a community again a real people not just in the in the parasocial relationships the terror was mentioning and I've been surprised not surprised I have learned that Pete there is

an intense retail thing happening all across the country among democratic candidates people want to be around the candidates they want to hear from them crowds are showing up there's enormous interest and they're feeling like they're connecting with voters I mean one of the things that's also come through and with us a lot of these candidates just feel they're confident that what they're saying is resonating you know and that they're connecting and so they want to do more of

don't do retail politics anymore and so it's also creating an incredible to your point about

delivering going out and being with people and just showing up and going into communities

“has become a new kind of super leap-powerful tactic I think in this moment and a contrast to a”

party of oligarchs that this is what is part of what makes us the party of real people you know it's it's it's super interesting to me to listen to you guys all the time

and I think you've both talked about some trends and and provided some insight it's really

valuable at this point I just have one footnote which also comes from just having I watched this FDR thing and then I read a bunch of stuff but at the hour you don't know what it is that's going

“to make somebody the man for the moment you know FDR was the cousin of a former president is a rich guy”

who was kind of a playboy and you know and then he got polio and that was going to end his career

but two things interesting things happen one is he went to warm spring stewardship to get

cured from the polio or to find a path to be healthier and it was a poor rural community where he was surrounded by poor tenant farmers and black job members black portions and stuff and he was with them a lot and he wouldn't have been with them a lot and it changed the way he viewed the world and then when he said I'm going to bring together people to help solve this big national problem on the other side of the spectrum the guy who lived on the next estate over from him

so guy named Morgan thought and and this guy Morgan thought was an agricultural economist it wasn't a mainstream economist but he was his next door neighbor so he all of a sudden had the most input at a time when the country was facing this big crisis and these two circumstances conspired with his connection to the technology to make him the right guy and so it's really hard to sort of understand what's going to be the formula or who's going to come from where to

get the gestalt of the moment and we just have to keep our eyes open to it and one of the reasons I love doing this is you guys are out there with your eyes open to it and your minds open

“to it and that's what we need we need it now as we go into this really vital four months”

oh my god it could not be more vital and then four months in a day from now when the 2021 campaign begins we're going to have to apply that in a smart way and fortunately I feel fairly competent in saying we're going to keep this conversation going as we do kind of once a month and I am so grateful so thank you Tara thank you Simon thank you everybody for listening and obviously we'll be on this weekend and we get so until next time bye bye thanks David

thanks David good to see you Tara