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that connection. Check the description below to save $90 with my special discount. Take control over your health today with a Palo Nero. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Dylan Tomelli podcast. I have such a treat today.
This is not a normal type of show. I have a virtual round table to my favorite people in the world. First, I just want to fill everybody in on the type of discussion. We're going to really get into the Nero side of things asleep. It's a fact on our overall health.
How these tie in together, I've got two of the best experts on the planet to get into this. I'm going to talk about all the ways that I'm screwed up and how they've helped to fix me and it's going to be a blast. So I have first Molly Eastman, she hosts sleep as a skill. She is one of the prominent figures that discuss the sleep along with other aspects of
health. Don't get it confused.
“She is a wealth of knowledge and a variety of places, but she is a specialist in sleep.”
And then, of course, I have everybody's favorite Nero scientists. Dr. Dave Raven is the end all be all for me on everything Nero related, mind, body, and spirit connection.
He's got the Apollo Nero an amazing new book coming out and together, we are going to try
to help people improve their stress, their sleep, and they're overall well being. So thank you guys for taking the time today. I'm really looking forward to this. We're not trying Dillon. We're doing it.
What about this? Thank you, Dillon. Do or do not? There is no try, that is easy. Right up.
Okay. Well, Star Wars. Louis Yoda, Yoda Wisdom, East, you know where I was reminded of that recently, was at our local ice cream shop. A good book.
There was a sign that a sign with that message from Yoda, and an underneath that said enough free tastes. Yeah. We're speaking all things health at the ice cream store. I love it.
See, you never know where you're going to find it.
No, no, it's everywhere, it's prevalent. All right. So, all right. Now, I've spoken with both of you at great lengths on my own show in private. You guys have talked together as well.
You're both experts in your field. I really want to start hitting home right now on the effect that sleep is going to have neurologically. How it's affecting our moods, our levels of stress, and then how that correlates into our metabolism and things that you're going to see on blood panels and some of the big problems that we encounter in today's world and what causes problems with sleep and stress intertwined.
And then we'll talk about how we deal with it. So, Molly, why don't you go ahead first and just talk about some of the key components here that you're finding are affecting sleep negatively. Oh, how much time do you have? He's like, the things that are affecting sleep negatively.
One of the things that I like to start with that can sometimes be confusing for people, but
“I think makes a lot of sense is that in 2001, the EPA did a study and they found that the”
average person was been around 93% of their time indoors, and that has divorced us from these rhythms of nature. So when we're divorced from these rhythms of nature, we really lose this diurital rhythm. And when we learn to lose this, this kind of acted by day and at rest at night peace, this makes a big problem for really a lot of aspects of sleep.
Okay, Dave, you want to correlate in off of that? Yeah, I mean, Molly got straight to the point I think, right, which is that all living beings, mammals, especially, will zoom in on for a moment, live by a circadian rhythm. And that rhythm is their day and night cycle rhythm. And it's a rhythm that's supposed to be synchronized with nature.
So we get down to the physics of it, right?
We're vibrational beings.
Every cell has a rhythm at which it's doing stuff.
Our breath rate has a rhythm, or her rate has a rhythm, and we have a day and night cycle rhythm. And women have a monthly menstrual rhythm, right, and there's all these different rhythms and phases of aging. And growth.
“And so in day and night is one of the most important that regulates our overall functioning”
of our nervous system to know that between this time and this time we should have high energy and be awake and alert and ready to learn and ready to hunt and ready to do all the things that require tons of energy. And then at these times, we should be ramping the body down for rest in recovery and nourishing and reproduction and digestion and like all of that important stuff, right, all the healing
stuff. And so when we get exposed to lots of different kinds of stimulation from the environment, number one, nowadays, probably being your smartphone, the set-tending blue light into your brain, all the time, at incredibly high levels of information, right, information bombardment, consistently.
And you know, that's overstimulating the nervous system and disrupting our natural rhythm. Because we're supposed to just be receiving light from the sun. Now we're getting light from screens and not just smartphones, right, but all screens we're getting light from. And we're getting light from artificial lights that are non-screen, artificial lighting.
And all those lights unless they're made to not have blue light have blue light and blue light disrupts, melatonin and circadian rhythms in our relationship with natural rhythm, right. So that when we start to do things that restore natural rhythm, that's when we kind of like get sleep back in on track and back to health, but it's hard because we have to first eliminate a lot of the things that disrupt that rhythm in the first place.
Okay, so what I always like to do, like I said, it's talk about my problems and then correlate
as we fix it.
“So this is a really good question, I think, for you both to answer back to back here.”
So in relation to sleep, so I have a tendency, a bad one, to stay up late. Two, three, and I have so much to do that I should be sleeping till 10 or 11, but obviously it's not going to work with work, right. So I'm only sleeping and it's not good sleep either to go to bed that late. And, you know, I've maybe six hours if I'm lucky.
And so I guess my question is one, for people that tend to stay up later, how negative effect does that have on the sleep quality? And what is your recommendation on fixing, circadian rhythm? And then in turn, how does that affect someone mentally throughout the day? Is it causing lack of clarity, brain fog, inability to stay focused?
What are some of the things that really have a negative effect for staying up to late and having the improper circadian rhythm? Because you're like you were saying, it's not where it's supposed to be in the sleep cycle. Yes, well, real quick, I think some people like this term that kind of came up in popularity around COVID, but actually it does have done research, which is revenge,
bedtime procrastination.
And the fun, what a label, but ultimately, it points to this procrastinating on the thing
that serves us, by the way, the way I got into sleep, just for contact was because I did everything not to do around sleep and used to be an extreme night owl, all kinds of issues with sleep. So it's not, I know it's intimately, but this tendency to steal time from our day and often that feeling into our sleep opportunity.
So just one concept to maybe have in the back of our mind.
“But at the same time, I think overall, whether it, I've gone about too early, going into”
bed too late, one of the things I see every single day for people is the sleep inconsistency. So often, like a yo-yo-ing is what it looks like. So I work with a lot of people with wearable data. So I get to see what the actual results look like with their sleep day and day out. And what I often see is maybe one of those nights, like you were speaking to, where people
they stay up later and they're pushing, maybe they're researching their read and whatever they're doing. And then they stay up too late. So then it cuts into their sleep opportunity. They don't have as much sleep.
They build up sleep pressure. So then that subsequent night often, many times we see a change in the following night of what time they go to bed. So what we see there is sometimes to go, oh, I got to get this out of control. I'm going to go to bed super early tonight, which sounds really logical and like you are
being responsible and getting things on track. But unfortunately, this is the exact pattern or some variation of it that I see all the time where people are then making up for that sleep, getting an over-abundance of sleep. And so then they keep being in this vicious cycle of now not having enough sleep drives, sleep pressure, adenosine, build up throughout the course of the day, so that they're
sleepy when they're regular bedtime that they would like to have comes around. And what this all points to is this poor sleep consistency of routine nature to sleep and sleep loves consistency.
If you don't get much else out of what I'm talking about, just that the more ...
you can be with sleep, and especially a recent year as we have more research to support
this concept that at certain times, while it might seem counter-intuitive, if you are met with this opportunity of do I sleep in later to make up for a cope with this
“lost sleep or do I maintain consistent wake-up time?”
Actually, it appears that maintaining that consistent wake-up time, even if you get kind of a rough stretch of night or two, overall it tends to actually support us so that we're not continually weakening that circadian pulse and that's strength of that circadian rhythm. Yeah, it's really interesting because consistency is a key signal to the nervous system
of safety, right? It's consistency provides familiarity, it provides something we know that's repeatable over and over again that we don't really have to think about so much, and that's like
one of the critical factors that allows sleep and REM sleep to happen, and sleep in general
because sleep is our most physically vulnerable state of existence, right? We're basically unconscious for the deepest parts of it and sometimes physically paralyzed for some of the deepest parts of REM sleep, so we're pretty vulnerable during that those states more than any other, so that for us to be able to access those states, we have to feel safe in that consistency of rhythm around sleep and wake time is so incredibly important
because it allows us to just be able to know that around this time we're going to abandon around this time waking up and you can just outsource that and think about it that much anymore. And if you don't hit it exactly, it's okay, but the point is that you have these kind of consistent marks, markers in the day that you can like save points, almost that you
can like, you know, pin to and around so that you can feel your body knows the familiarity
of winding down at that time, it knows when to release the melatonin that starts the wide-down process. Ideally, it's changing a little bit, because it's aligned with the sun and the season you're in, speaking of other rhythms and cycles, like our sleep patterns during the winter
“are definitely different than those during the summer and that's okay, and I think that's”
what I think gets to answer your question to on about deep and REM sleep and total sleep, because there are, you know, when we talk about sleep requirements for different people, we know that women generally speaking need about an hour more sleep than men, and when they're pregnant or breastfeeding, they probably need even more than that, more than men, and generally speaking people, we talk about people needing between eight and nine hours of sleep and night
to be as like healthy adults, but if you're getting mostly light sleep and not getting deep and REM sleep, it doesn't really matter that you're getting your eight hours or nine hours of night as much because your quality of recovery is not as good. And so all of our like emotional memory consolidation, all of our short-term long-term memory storage, all of the like when the body takes out the trash of the waste of the cells,
a lot of that happens during deep and REM sleep. So we have to get those sleep stages,
“which requires, you know, even more of an emphasis on safety, and I think that's where consistency”
becomes really important. And you know, Michael Bruce talks about this too, right? Like when you start to get to, and I think the literature shows when you start to get to about 21 days of consistent practice that you're circading rhythm starts to reset around that new pattern, which is why the Apollo has a 21-day challenge because within 21 days you can easily get at at least 20 minutes more sleep and night that's concentrated and deep and REM sleep.
So that consistency to your point is like spot on. And I think if you actually get more deep and REM than your total sleep time design to be as high all the time. So like I will just like maybe this isn't the best for my long-term health, but once in a while I and probably comes from my training in the hospital, I will let I like to work till 2 or 3 a.m. 2. So I'll stay up till 2 or 3 a.m. in work and I'll allow myself to have one morning of
sleeping in a little bit, but like an hour to just make sure I get like six hours. But then I'll go back to my consistency and rhythm afterwards and it just kind of restores and it's just fine. But you know, I don't usually find that I have to make that up at any other time. Yeah, I just want to underscore that real quick in case because one of the things I see when we talk about insomnia, there's over 100 sleep wake disorders and insomnia, difficulty falling,
asleep, staying asleep, early morning awake, it's an interesting one because that's a group where we might actually think about sleep and communicate our goals with sleep a little bit differently than other sleep disorders because often just speaking in generalities, commonly a lot of insomnia that long-term insomnia, if they know a lot about sleep and actually sometimes it can freak them out more and I've been there to to learn more and then so oh no, well I only got this
amount of sleep last night and now I'm going to throw everything off and an lack of self-resiliency and relating to that ability to kind of get back on track and trusting that ability in their body. So I appreciate what Dr. Nick speaking to you because it's a big deal in that group,
A lot of what we're almost, you could almost think of it like exposure therap...
to times when you're not going to get perfect sleep and orthosobony as a whole conversation when
“we talk about tracking, you know, really being okay with periodically not getting, you know,”
99 or whatever on these sleep trackers of that sort of thing and then oddly that we're who's sitting up at the grip and speaking to the safety point can fill into improved results, at least in that group commonly. Yeah, it when I sleep, I mean I can pass out of the drop of a dime man like you don't, it takes me like this. It's like the wake up and five and a half hours and Queenie put a clock next to me so I'd stop looking at my phone to check the time because
what happens is I look at the phone and I see a hundred notifications and then I start looking at one, look at two, look at three and then before you know it, you're up, you know? And the phone is the detriment. What I've tried to do is I have the mattress where you can turn the massage you're on and I flick it on and it kind of helps me go back to sleep just that nice because I do
it when I get into bed and it gives you a nice little rhythm to try to do it. The problem is as you
know if you're waking up at eight thirty or nine even with a sleep mask on, it doesn't seem I can sense the sun somehow and it makes it a lot to go back to sleep and I think that it's just it's just not natural. I think is without getting into science or without getting into anything, it's just not really natural for your body and I know there's studies both ways and everything
“but I think that that's what it comes down to is you're just going against the grain. One of the”
things that I try to do and I'm curious for both of you ways to wind yourself down properly in this virtual day off properly to get into the right rhythm is I always get outside right away even though it's not early enough and it gets too damn hot here like today but getting outside and getting in the sun early I'm trying and I'm curious what you guys recommend on the wind downs at night because the day you like you said we have a tendency to work late and that's not really a
great way to wind out. It's because you're running still going and I have a tendency to look at screens whether it's computer or phone and then because I want to relax it's like okay I'm looking at my sports scores or stuff on my phone and it's not really relaxing so I try to I've used different types of supplements don't work when I use the Apollo it certainly helps
“but I still have the mind that I have to get under control so I'm wondering for you guys”
morning night what some of the best ways without having to take supplements or medications what are natural free things that we can do there healthy safe and effective for both of you. Well I'm real quick I'll just jump in with the point that one of my padcast of us now over 300 people with their morning routine and they're nightly routine and so you see different you know kinds of variations with everyone and myself included but across the board one of the things that
seems to come up is more of that rhythmic nature that bringing us up regulation by day and down
regulations by night and really if we have this opportunity of course as always outliers in certain
parts of the globe where you get the weird periods or 24 hours of fun and all the things but for most of the time mostly when we can follow these rhythms of nature when we can start or day with bright light exposure outside my app I often recommend it's called my sorpedian app or if there's other app right you can actually just log and see how much lux is in your environment you know to do this for a long time often but just to get the sense of it because commonly people have
no idea I know I didn't before I got to tell this that the different like I'm behind a window right now if I just you know after this conversation go outside the lux is gonna shoot through the roof just by getting beyond that window and they definitely might think oh well it's a big deal and I don't think we're that much different in certain regards and this is a leap but if you think of a bird right and you put a tarp over it and then expect it it's gonna survive we think we're so
you know without getting any sort of sunlight continually we think that we're more divorced from that sort of way of being I would argue that we're not that far up we need these kind of elements of nature to inform us and then we can use those as a blueprint of where we put what we call kind of front of biology, zeitgabers or timegivers and those can often look like that light dark timing, temperature timing, meal timing, exercise timing and I like to put in just for a
component of this like a they impact these is thought timing and so when you speak about you know the phone piece and what have you actually having those up regulatory conversations the engaging conversations we want to cut those out entirely but put those by day when we need to handle certain things and then the juxtaposition at night of the down regulation aspects of thought and the
Last thing I'll say to that is that we had one of the sleepcutch for the Olym...
couple times and one of the things that he really noted was in the for your question around the
“knee neck and down regulation, a lack of novelty in being the thing that we're really going for just”
boring, not to make a you know miss thinking yeah right just for meal your stuff and it doesn't have to look fancy it doesn't have to be lotus position necessarily I mean my husband I love the office and we've seen every single episode so it's very familiar and safe you know and so now there's a whole stack and things that you could do to bring in safety and a routine and joy and peace and all that but it might look different for each person yeah I love the idea you mentioned
because I don't think people think about it so much this the way that we're talking about which is like the amygdala which is the fear center of the brain is that is not just sensing fear it's contrast detection right so it's detects munis and unfamiliarity and novelty uncertainty and when you're trying to fall asleep you don't want novelty you want a lack an absence of novelty because novelty is stimulating by nature right it makes the amygdala tune in and be like we should probably pay
“attention to this and we don't we don't want that that's why it's often so hard for me to fall”
sleep the first night there in a hotel even like a really nice new place but it's because it's new
right and then after a few days you start to settle in so yeah but I think that really highlights the amygdala at the core of a lot of how we think about sleep as being something that requires safety and when you start to think about safety in that way you start to realize all the different things that make the body feel or perceive that it might be unsafe which gets me to my favorite which is having thoughts about how you cannot sleep for some reason or how there's something wrong
with you that you can't sleep that maybe we came up with on our own or maybe somebody told us that there was something wrong with us that we can't sleep but those thoughts are directly activating to the amygdala because they make us if there's something wrong with you then you actually become a source of lack of safety to yourself right and so those are those are directly inhibiting to access to sleep so one of the my favorite routines for people to do and I did this
for myself many years ago for many many years and it was very helpful was just to remind myself rather than like notice when I'm having thoughts about why I can't sleep or why I might be struggling with sleep and then just remind myself instead of thinking about those thoughts
remind myself that my body was born to sleep a third of my life and that my body loves sleep
and I love sleep and imagine myself like close my eyes and imagine and breathe it like I'm sleeping and imagine and breathe sleeping right now and then sleep just started to come more easily because you're just resetting the thought loops that are the disruptive fear inducing thought loops and you could do that with it and that's like the whole practice of meditation that's just like one iteration of meditation that we can apply to sleep to redirect your attention to something
that you can control which is like rewriting your story around how you relate to sleep as a safe thing yes and we've all talked about this and Dave you've written about this you know that this is my favorite thing to get into is connecting mind-body spirit together and I feel that sleep plays like a massive role in that regard when we're looking on a a charge of what's
most important to make that connection and to to do that now I have tried to read a little bit
before bed which tends to help like read a prayer for me I know that's not for everybody but that's kind of what I've tried to do but what what type of role how big of a role is sleeping in that full ability to bring health into like full alignment how big of a role do you guys feel that plays in determining the direction of our health and when we're looking at diseases and inflammation and cortisol and it's the most important we can stuff you right there right most most important role
see the foundational thing you struggle to find if you go to pubmed and put sleep and just about anything that's important to you are longevity, aging, cardiovascular health, fertility, diabetes, to race like I mean the list is endless, a really good mountains of research in many aspects of
“health and well-being and I think it's one I hope one of the reasons why we're starting to have”
a bit of a sleep Renaissance and maybe it's the combination of getting conversations like this out so I appreciate you having a forum for this maybe wearable something seems to be in the air where people are beginning to get the message of how important this is and you know Dr. Dave spoke to glimphatic drainage, glimphatic drainage with the G versus glimphatic drainage with an L is you know really it was only delivered on 2012 and now our understanding of how this helped cleanse the
Brain predominantly the first half of sleep largely around deep sleep and whe...
there's a huge impact on cognition so previously when we think about possible correlations
and linkups with neurological disorders like Parkinson's Alzheimer's dementia we might not have thought that there could be things that maybe could do decades in advance to support general health and well-being in that area in terms of cognition and yet it looks like sleep could be one of those things among many other things that can make a difference for your health sleep getting good deep sleep and good overall sleep architecture definitely prevents dementia it's like probably
this single best thing that we could do on our regular basis that would prevent us from getting dementia because it clears amoloid protein plaque out of this river spinal fluid so we now know that like that's pretty darn cool right like that's the time where the most amoloid plaque that
builds up over the course of the day of using our brains and our brains being stressed out from
data activity gets actually cleared and digested and broken down and that stuff is the stuff you don't want to accumulate and sit around right as we sit around it glums together and kills cells so getting that good great sleep architecture ideally which is not without met not without substances like some supplements can be okay if they're dosed and the right the right kind but prescriptions said it is a hypnotics and alcohol all in pair access to those deep and REM sleep states and
that's probably in part why we see that people who take benzodiazepines and opiates and alcohol have increased risks of dementia when those substances are used long term because they're also not
“getting deep REM sleep where you that you need to clear and and the early you know that the good”
good architecture that allows you to clear your body to clear all that waste and so yeah but I think that maybe a lot of pieces really important because safety is at the at the core of how we get the body into a state that it allows its maximal waste clear it's functioning to happen which the downstream result is preventing horrible outcomes that we none of us want like dementia right when we think they're like we make it so complicated in a lot of ways but trying to break
down what's happening with each individual diagnostic category but that's not necessarily what matters right like it's not about the name of the diagnosis or kind of dementia because when you really look at what's happening to the cells in those disorders they're all breaking down and getting screwed up the same way it's all accumulation misfold protein that gets accumulated because the body's not clearing enough waste right so there's like common mechanisms now that we understand
“that help us also understand wisely to some important and how to prevent some of these things we”
never knew we could prevent before and technology can now help which is really exciting like a
Apollo is actually improving deep is the first technology that has been proven to boost deep and REM sleep architecture in people just by wearing it right like there's nothing that you can wear that just boost your deep and REM sleep percentage you know architecture over time and improve your body's ability to get deep quality rest when you're in bed so like that's not going to be the first technology if it's kind right like hopefully we see lots of technology and starts to
be working in the same way where we can improve the way that the body's functioning as like a AI assistant to your to your health system right not to just your your essays and schoolwork but like actually to your body's ability to maintain its own circadian rhythm like AI can help with that it can running the background we're in conscious you know yes you know I love these because we get deep into it and we get a really nice thorough explanation I'm going to do it on a different
angle I'm going to do it on the obvious so like for instance it's very common understanding and sense that when you have a nice good sleep you generally don't wake up groggy you don't kind of have this it takes you forever to get out of bed feeling you you look at something and it's very clear if you don't sleep well you're groggy you have trouble getting up you don't want to get up if you look to read something it's not it's not setting in like it's not absorbing I read prayers
in the morning when I wake up and when I have a bad sleep I don't absorb it my eyes start to fall down I don't do well right off the bat and so it's it's like also when you take a drug even over supplementation like way this is way back so you know this is prior time for me but I would sometimes take Nyquill at night to try to help me sleep even when as far as to take Xanax at night or muscle relax was that I had for injuries and you wake up feeling like you had a
party night like you were up all night drinking you wake up feeling horrible now I told you you guys I did like a nervous system reset last week and I went to bed at 10 30 and woke up at 8 o'clock
“and they were knocking on the door to wake me up but I have it slept like that and I think since”
high school and it was the best feeling ever now of course I fell right back into staying up late but the point is is some of these things are quite obvious to people yet we still do it and I see the alternatives now and that's where I want to shift to in talking about this so obviously I have the Apollo one and day where I want to talk to you about that because my problem
With the Apollo is I'm so focused wearing it during the day and I get so inte...
pass out without putting it on when I wear it all day to help me throughout the day and don't
“use that I want to talk about using it at night more so and then Molly I want to tie that”
into how that correlates with aura how we look at these results how we interpret them and see how it's impacting us and the things that we need to be looking at maybe we'll touch on HRB because a lot of people still don't know about it don't know what it means think of the lower numbers better like there's confusion on it so I'd like to discuss all of these how it works together and the proper ways to utilize this to get the best out of it so Dave like talk about how do we
wind down with the Apollo how should we use it what mode should we be on and when and to get the most out of it and then Molly maybe you can talk about interpreting the results and an understanding you couldn't both talk about some of the data points that we're looking at because this confusing man you pull these things up you don't even know what the hell you're looking at and you look for reference ranges or things that might not even be accurate for sure yeah I'll do a quick overview
“of Apollo and then I'll pass to Molly but I think the Apollo is a technology that we developed”
that's in the same context and based on the same understanding of circadian rhythms we've been
talking about this whole time that Molly first started talking about where the body operates on
a day and night cycle and it likes to be on a day and night cycle that's consistent with the sun and the moon and that is our baseline so when you asked Molly earlier about what should people be doing to help them feel more energized every day and wake up more easily and fall asleep at night and having easier time going to bed at night what did she do she told you what we tell all our patients and what we try to do our best ourselves which is that she curates her environment
right to be more energizing and more wakeful and to do more wakeful and focus related activities that require more energy during the day and then she has more relaxing more soothing lying down type activities that happen at night which probably goes down to her lighting and
“the kinds of music she listens to and the kinds of things that might be on her TV or where her”
phone is located in her house right who she talks to at different times everything and so we have the ability to carry the surroundings that we and that's very special opportunity that we've been afforded as human beings so that in a lining that curation like in the music for example with our bedtime so it's calming and soothing music and not energizing in new music that helps the body know especially if it's the same song every night we do this for babies right and it helps
some wind down and start to naturally allow entry into sleep states because of the familiarity so we wanted to create something like that for people that didn't require music and didn't require your ears or your eyes or any other thing because those were already being used and people were still struggling with sleep so we realized that soothing touch is one of the fastest pathways into the safety nervous system in large parts you're studying music mdma and other touch related
healing techniques that work with the safety pathway and the vagus nerve in the brain and we found that soothing touch activates the vagus nerve immediately and so started composing sound wave songs using sound waves for the skin and the touch receptors in the base like subwoofer frequency range instead of the ears so to the body Apollo is music and it feels like a mom like rocking and shushing a baby back to sleep or like being you know in the womb like the ideas that kind of reminds
of the body through the skin of a familiar feeling of safety that is much slower and deeper and more soothing at night and right before bedtime and then in the middle of the night and then is much more energizing and vibrant during the day because you're more energy but still feel safe and in control in your own body so it's all about circadian rhythm regulation and just giving the body the right signals that align with your goal energy states and the app you just you can
do it on to van but you just and if you have an iphone you can try it by doubling the app on the iphone
Apollo and your app now and joining with us but you can basically just set your bedtime and
your wake up time and it will keep you awake between those times and keep you asleep between the times you want to be asleep and that's it and when you just get that consistency down with whatever tools you have this being one of them that actually boost your deep and REM sleep you know effectively via aura and total sleep via aura from the study that's coming out should be this year hopefully a thousand people but we can actually see that people strongly
benefit as much as ambient or other leading prescription sleep aids from using tools like Apollo so this is really really exciting now there's other options right you don't need to rely on some of these sedatives sleep aids that cause like ambient has terrible side effects right like you ipad patients who've eaten the entire contents of their refrigerator and then we're going up with a sink full of dishes you know they have no idea and then they gain like like 50 pounds
in a month they have no idea that's going on and we're like you were sleeping right like who needs
that no one no one needs that yeah that's like oh my god that's amazing yeah well real
Quick that's such a soapbox conversation for me the long-term use of these di...
of benzos and de-drugs for sleep but of course there's exceptions and one have you in certain
situations but they're really not approved for long-term use then the way that we're seeing them so if they're dealing with that I do just want to put out a couple different resources or one
“key resources benzos information coalition or non-profit dedicated solely to helping to educate”
around some of the perils of utilizing these things over the long-term and what can come up them so glad you spoke to that and I'm so happy that we're starting to see more things that could be from a more holistic approach that can make a difference with their sleep because so often people hate some of the stuff I often say around the sleep because it's like oh okay so mostly it's boring stuff mostly it's doing the same thing fairly repeatedly and of course we're
gonna have a spontaneity here and there but a lot of it is can we maintain a level of routine
to our days and tournaments and so having something else external that could help support that experience is excited because really in our modern day and age we need a lot of that to support that so what do we see with a wearables lots of things and now granted wearables might not be for everyone there's certain use they use wearing to wearable wearable trackers right yeah it's wearable trackers yes thank you but good distinction wearable sleep trackers of at what I suppose
I can't imagine that there's many people that couldn't wear on a follow is there no I mean a follow a follow works like has a partnership with or a so they work really well together but yeah I mean a follow can work for anyone who's trying to make their sleep better right like younger so you don't have to yeah yeah you don't have to look at the data either the data is like an
“optional part of a follow the main purpose is just to help you sleep better if you want to look”
at the data and see your sleep improvements you can but at cheery it's not about like you know you slept terrible last night fix it or else I'm going to tell you you slept bad again it's again yeah exactly because that's what we'll you know there's a certain word that might do well with wearable sleep trackers at the whole design is to open up and maybe get some sort of score there might be period of time we're a little data vacation or updating or could make sense for
for some group however mostly what I'm seeing in the group that I'm with is the option really empowered is you know kind of educated and looking at the data in a way that can work for them so what I mean by that is things like aura who there's certain brain-based trackers there's other things that you can do to get this information but on a daily basis you get to see certain things not only around your sleep and some of this can really act as red flags of where you might want to
get tested for sleep disorders I am a bit bullish on that I would love to see everyone tested not just once but multiple times throughout the course of their lives for sleep disorders kind of akin to how we would get blood pressure tested whenever just do it one time and then make all kinds of recommendations off of that for the rest of your life as something like sleep apnea very prevalent is very dynamic and it will shift and change to the course of your life even if you didn't have
symptoms of that before it might show up as as you age and think change that we can see signs of possibly disorders lots of restlessness you know let the movement showing up on your wearables if we're seeing kind of fragmentation throughout the course of your night lots and lots of wake up
“and often that maybe you don't even remember on that can be another sign that we might want to get”
tested and make sure we're not stepping over some of those sleep disorders but then even beyond that I would also say of course in that sleep category we can make lots of information see and clean information around are we spending too much time in bed that's another really common one ironically when we're dealing with things like insomnia a lot of people will spend in order and amounts of times in bed to try to squeeze out a little bit of sleep and then they start having
kind of counterproductive experience and relatedness with their bedroom they're actually the one
group that if you travel as opposed to most of us will experience what Dr. Davis speaking to that first
night effect when you're traveling or you you know just you're not sleeping the best and suddenly sometimes can be the only interesting group where because they don't have prior history related to this new space where they might actually sleep decent because they don't have all that negative you know kind of conversation in the background it's all that thinking you want to sleep right but with our wearables when we look at things like heart rate respiratory rate heart rate
variability body temperature blood oxygen you mentioned HRV you know really the time between our heartbeat and it can give us some what of a proxy or a estimation of how our nervous system is fairing day today and moment to moment second second and what's interesting is now some of these wearables will also show us your daytime drift which can get a little layered because sometimes
People now get stressed about the stress metrics okay you want to get very me...
cool about that is it can speak to what we've been chatting about around these rhythms of if we can
“kind of have a bit more of a pulsing of engagement to say the least or you know activation by day”
and then a clear kind of sloping down into the evening of down regulation and all those kind of connected metric the body temperature starting to cool heart rate starting to cool to lower and then heart rate variability starting to to your point go up a bit from your baseline as a close to some people that we'll get confused it's supposed to go up and it's supposed to go down
it's a longer conversation but ultimately we're looking to find kind of your baseline and then
from your baseline if we are seeing trends where it's dropping consistently below that it just might give us pause to see is there's something that's in heating our ability to recover but remarkably dropping we really want to kind of take a look and then in the other regard if it's going above or baseline often it's a blanket statements but often a sign that there's we've been able to kind of recover throughout the course of the night there are exceptions, aridnias, certain safety
get surgeries or kind of instances where the body is kind of forcing a person with that of response you might see some abnormalities but mostly you can pan back pan out look at your trends and then really get a clear whole slew of information around how you're faring as it relates to your daytime stress load and your nighttime stress load and after they're very much up because I guess what I'll end with is that largely how we are by day get mirrored in our night
so how we are by day tends to get mirrored in our night and you can see that with the connection
with aura and dex comes to the tune of I think it's around 75 million to demonstrate the connection
with metabolism and sleep you can look at your DGM data and overlay that with ordering and see I'm spiking and crashing my glucose day all throughout the day and it's also happening at night and it's correlating with some of those wakeups that I'm having consistently as a example right so yeah it allows you to get really deep into this information and then make it practical so that we can ultimately not have to think about it that much. One thing that Molly we've talked about
this multiple times and you've brought it up multiple times is like the overdata we have to be careful
“but we do want the data so you have to use the data as a tool not as something that you just”
live and die by it's it's just there to give you guidance so we know what to fix but don't let it dominate your thoughts or it's going to have an adverse effect. I'm everything I do is based on data but I've learned how to temper what I'm reading and looking at and going okay dude like this is what you need to fix just chill and do it you know you have to talk to yourself and tell yourself that so don't let our tools that are helping us actually go against us just be careful with that you know
and so there's one more question I want to ask you guys because you would know this better than anybody and Dave every time I've ever seen you do an interview talk with you do an interviews on
here you always have a wired set on and it's I know why because of the the EMF and the protection
I get asked constantly about or about Apollo about wearables and I think it would be good to end on this could you clear up some confusion on EMF concerns with certain wearables and if it is something that people need to be aware of or worried about when it comes to specifically especially Apollo and or about anything in general things that that come up constantly in comments that I see that are like take back our serious questions are what about the EMF with these. Yeah I think it's
into what I wanted to mention is a good set way for our prior conversation about trusting your body right like data is is measured is a way that we're trying to measure what's happening in the body with feeling that we're actually feeling right so it's not it's a way to observe certain patterns but every time you measure something that's happening in reality you're getting one degree of separation away from what's actually happening right there's somebody now observing what's happening
“and trying to quantify it and so when we measure that you lose a little bit right that's why”
every single test that we have in medicine has a false positive and a false negative rate there's a chance when you run any test whether it's a wearable or whether it's a blood test that that test is going to incorrectly be positive or negative right there's a certain small percentage that's going to happen every time and I think that's not that's not really taught well so like a lot of people outsource the trace to their wearable devices and their data but the
data is just an observation that is off you know for sleep in HRV and heart rate is mostly correct for most people but for deep sleep in REM sleep and actually sub-saging it's incorrect for many people it's only about 65% accurate at best deep sleep in REM sleep so you know we need
To be looking at these things means the taught how to look at these data corr...
what the the truth comes from feeling so if you wake up feeling good and rested I get this
is my patience all the time and I talk about it in the book that I've coming out of simple guide to being alive but these stories about people who miss so many people who I've met over the years who tell me that their their tracker data is telling them that they sleep terribly but when I actually ask them how they feel they say they feel fine and so I'm like well did you actually see badly or is it more likely that your tracker had an error and you're actually trusting the data
more than you're trusting your own self like try sleeping without the tracker for a few weeks and see how you feel like take a take an old school sleep diary and I would tell you like at least 50% of those people don't come back for another point because they are so attached to the data
“right and so until I think like with with the going back to the Bluetooth and trusting your”
body piece and headphones for me like I haven't seen I I look a lot of research I haven't seen a lot of good clinical research studies showing that EMF that comes out of our phones and our headphones and at the levels that we are exposed to causes any significant problems for people long-term but I know that I get headaches from using Bluetooth headphones and for putting my phone close to my head and I don't I don't like any headaches and I don't like to think about
what's happening in my brain when my head hurts from putting this thing next to it and so that's enough for me and so I just stick to my wired headphones that don't give me headaches yeah I know but I'm not waiting for the data to tell me that's screwing me up it's gonna be too wait for the time that happens I love it yeah real quick I'll just say that on the conversation around wearables and data and trust in your body test I was just in a piece in near coast all around looking at
“heat devarant orthochemia so people are thinking that oh maybe that's me that could be some”
information and ultimately I think for everything I do day and day out around sleep and wearable data
is this very fine line of both educating and then all you're getting from a place to the ultimately we don't have to think about it it's true it's a very cheap thing because you can on nation right it's it's a little it's hard to balance that because often when sleep isn't working you're we want to effort especially for achievers and we said we'll just give me the information while read the books I'll do the things and oddly this can often backfire but so
you're really important points so what I would stand in is this concept of sleeping a skill and there is conversations in those elements of some of the things that we've been speaking on today that often harken back to ways of being that maybe just would have happened naturally if we lived a bit more in rhythm with nature and a lot of it is that and I think
“that's what Apollo is really speaking to is to have this sense of safety well-being that often comes”
in the simple things in observing sunlight you know kind of downregulation and fight evenings and all these things that will be moved away from getting cuddles get well it doesn't know like a hug feature too well so come on and Apollo and aura also have airplane mode so all wearables that are worth their cell have like now have an airplane mode in them so you don't get any Bluetooth radiation you can wear them all the time there's no Bluetooth no EMF at all
really from those devices so that's great so now like device-serving design round our needs finally absolutely and when it comes to sleep at the EMF's largely even if we're you know oh look at that okay very well we broke his mode Dave Dylan loves focus mode because it's kind of one of this guy but ultimately when it comes to sleep we don't really need too much going on but we could argue and so what are you just saying a little conservative there's not much
that we need to have in that kind of fear to Dave's point that the companies that are being thoughtful around this often provide way so that we can have that airplane mode begins to keep
the mind which is really what we're going coursely yeah I love it you guys are amazing I love
doing this we should try to do it more often that you know I was joking with Molly because I said oh I sent my mom and my wife to go get their nails and toes done for Mother's Day and I said and I'm just going to work but this this is just fun it's not work it's just a pleasure and it's fun and it's it's all because oh nice to talk with with you too and to get this kind of information out and it's fun and it's helpful and I hope that people really take the things
that we're teaching to heart and prioritize something like sleep prioritize their mental health and listen to people that are taking time out of their day on a Friday to record when I know that you know we all have certain things family-wise and things that are going on but we want to put this information out for everybody so I appreciate you guys tremendously I will link everybody
Word of follow you and these are remember everybody I bring on experts like t...
best at what they do for a reason and they're trying to really make a difference significantly
“for all of us so Molly Dave thank you for not just this but every single thing that you do”
and for being such good friends with me personally and the things that I get to learn from you
selfishly on my own though I get to share with everybody else so I appreciate you guys thoroughly
I really do our pleasure thank you so much I really appreciate the work you do and thanks for
“creating a forum to talk about my favorite topic on the planet so really important really work”
yeah really appreciate it well I love you guys you know that and I want to thank everybody for listening so stay tuned for plenty more to come Dr. Dave Raven Molly Eastman and Dylan Jamelli Spine it off.
