Inside the Manosphere

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Findout podcast.

We have a great guest for you today. A friend of the show, she is a director and a content creator, Brenna Perez is with us today. Brenna, how are you doing?

- All right, good. I'm just waking up to the day's horse. (laughing) - Every day. Well, we said today was gonna be a little bit of a grab bag.

So we're gonna just, we're gonna talk about a few things that are flying under the radar that are terrible things that people should know about. Is there one horror in particular that grabs you this morning?

Or is it really just the culmination of all the bullshit over the last, what, 15 months or 14 months or whatever the hell it's bad? - Is it only been 15?

“Um, I mean, I think it's the culmination.”

I think we're watching, you know, just all the, of course, everything oversees and Iran, and, you know, I mean, I can't believe we're at this point. - Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think like for those

who are sort of tuning out, I think we've lost 13 service members over 200 wounded, some severely, we bombed 150 school girls. We have killed a bunch of the leadership,

including the guy who was actually in charge of the other day, but it doesn't seem like it's done anything and now Donald Trump has found himself caught in a box because now if he leaves, it just looks like we did nothing. But if he stays, he's probably talking about ground troops

in order to free the straight of four booze.

And none of our allies, what a help us for the first time

in history. No one has stepped up and helped us because of the ridiculous sentiment. - Can't imagine why. - It's so fucking scary.

- Yay. - Isn't there a ship on the way with like 2,500 rains or some ship? - Yeah. - Which is funny, it's like an advanced marine unit

or something, it's the same term that was used for the first Marines that got sent to Vietnam. - Really? - Oh, it doesn't actually mean anything, but it's interesting.

It was like that damn, all right, here we go again. - Let's do it. - Apparently, apparently, Donald Trump has gone to his generals and said, "Why haven't you opened the straight of four moves?"

And the answer is, it doesn't take much to close it

when you just have undefended tankers running through, you could literally send a $50 drone and hit it. - Like, it's not, yeah. - Well, another couple, the mine sweepers. - Oh yeah.

“- Area, I guess, I mean a couple months ago, was it?”

- Yeah. - Yeah, because of that alcoholic dipfuck, he's talking about how the only threat to the ship going through the straighter is Iran's shooting them.

- Well, no shit, Sherlock. That's your job, you supposed to stop that. - By alcoholic shithead, I believe you being P to P to XF, you would be erect. - It's fun, yeah.

- I can't imagine why nobody's going through the only threat is that Iran shoots your ship. - And I think it's the threat. - That the assurance was like, we will ensure the ships, or we'll cover the insurance.

It's like it's just about money to them. It's absolutely zero concern for the lives that could be lost. It's just, don't worry, we'll cover the costs, you know. - Well, he apparently Trump is also furious because he was under the oppression apparently

when the U.S. attacks anybody for whatever reason. 80% of the public just jumps up and does a dance. And he has now learned that, oh, wait. My numbers have actually gone down. And I think there was a poll that showed 48% of Americans.

Not only don't like the war, but our think it's going poorly. So like, yeah, I mean, it's like, yeah, like, wonderful, whatever we achieve.

“- He's gonna say you should be charged with treason,”

just for accurately reporting things. - Yeah. - Oh, yeah. - I mean, I mean, I'm gonna hang you. I mean, the funny thing is like, if the United States is attacked,

yeah, no, nations will jump up and help it. It's just that, and historically a lot of the times when the U.S. has attacked nations have jumped up and helped it. And, you know, as a Spaniard myself,

I can attest to the fact that that brings a cost, right? Like, we had our worst terror attack on our soil. My community was the fact that, you know, I had teachers that didn't, they luckily, you know, no one lost their life,

but they didn't come into school that day because of Spaniard's involvement in Iraq, in following its ally to war based on false pretenses. You know, there is a cost to being an American ally. And I think, you know, countries are figuring out,

unfortunately. - Are you saying the countries don't like it when we lie to them about why we're going to war and have them bring everybody with them? - I don't know.

- I don't know. - I don't know. - I don't know. (laughs) - It's so stupid.

It's one of those things where like,

I wanna see how far our power, 'cause the only reason the allies even stay on our side with Trump doing all this shit is because of the insane amount of leverage we have, economically and militarily.

But this is gonna show us just how far that actually goes. Because at a certain point, these countries are gonna look at us and be like, they're a more of a liability than an asset.

“And I think we're kind of that balance is starting”

to get real fucking wonky for a lot of people. So like, my biggest concern is who the fuck takes our position if that ends up happening? It's probably not a good situation. - Well, I could tell you who are on the pro-democracy side,

it seems, and this isn't a one to one, but they're looking at Canada. - Yeah. - And Karni, who's the prime minister there, and like hearing more and more of them shower praise on him

instead of saying anything to us, now obviously it's not the same thing, but you know, like, I guess Donald Trump telling everybody in NATO that they suck and they don't pay enough money to be in it

was not a good strategy when you decided to go to war with Iran and then wanted their help. And they all went, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. The problem with the problem with this war is that it actually doesn't take that much for Iran

to keep it going. - No. - They just like have to love some rockets and some bombs at the oil tankers every once in a while. Like, there was one yesterday of the day before

and there hadn't been one for five days,

“but it's enough to like keep why would a tanker”

with, you know, the cruise, you dozen or whatever, why would they go through like risking their cruise lives for that? So like, it's very easy for them to just grind us into the ground, which is why they're talking

about ground troops now, which is terrifying. - Fucking director of counterterrorism resigns and says the whole reason we're there is 'cause it's really finally found a present that's dumb enough to follow them into a war with Iran.

- Mm-hmm. - I mean, that is absolutely correct. His name is Joe Kent, Joe Kent. He works for Tulsi Gabbard, who also before she joined the Trump administration was theoretically very anti-war.

I would call her a scam artist and whatever. She also used to believe that you could shock the gay out of people. - What? - Yeah, she was an electric shock therapy,

conversion therapy, believer. I mean, her dad has a cult, it's a cult in Hawaii, and it's very anti-gay, and they used to believe an electric shock therapy. And she changed her mind when she ran

and was a Democrat, but like that was always a morage

for this like right wing bent that she's got, but her deputy, the director of the Office of Counterterrorism left for this. So, you know, it's not going too well for them. - Yeah, that cult also they eat the toenails of the leader.

- What the fuck? - Yes, what? - You can't. - I'm not kidding. I'm looking it up right now because I want to make sure

I'm not repeating some bullshit, but it came from a channel that has never, I've never seen it like spread. - Lies, I gotta look at it, do it. - I don't know if I want to know the answer.

Donald Trump talked about how if Gavin Newsom has this likes that he shouldn't be president. That's the kind of shit that she'd be disqualifying from holding political office. - So that's another one of those--

- Yeah, well he did say, Gavin Newsom is president. - Right. - And that was what I had. - Right, right, right.

- And that was one of the things actually, I think we had on the list yesterday of things that are kind of flying out of the radar, but yeah, Donald Trump basically just attacked the entire neurodivergent community

and because he wanted to make some stupid joke about Gavin Newsom, 'cause this Gavin is dyslexic, is that correct? - And then I think Gavin put out a very nice statement that was basically like to everybody

who's dyslexic, like you are not less than others, you are just as good as anybody else, but then he did do a, he did one of his fake Trump, well he's the president now. - Yeah, but yeah, like Donald Trump apparently thinks

if you're dyslexic, that you are not capable of holding a job. - All right, which is that out of you?

“- I think if you're rapist, you should be the president.”

- What brand? - Sorry, what brand? - No, I'm just saying it's ironic 'cause he famously can't re-very well himself.

You know, it's a projection, as always.

- Always, and always with Maga, right? It's always projection. - Yeah, it's a bit Trump. - You have to get shit brought into him on one page. That's all he always has is one page.

He won't read a briefing unless it's one page and there have to be charts and graphs. - Mm-hmm, he's just whipped. - But a dyslexic person. - All the time, no, too, like that's the other piece.

Like I don't know if you watched a JD fans in the oval yesterday. Trump is like struggling to stay awake. - Oh, and how did it get yesterday? - Yes, it happens all the time.

- It's like every day. - About 2pm, it's time for Grandpa's nap. - Well, and did you see the photo? I think it was with either the Irish president or the Irish prime minister yesterday with St. Patrick's Day.

- His hand is still all kicked with that like-- - Mm-hmm. - Bake up, and it's like so pronounced. - It's like a book six of Harry Potter

- Exactly what's happening. - I was talking about the horror- - I was talking about the horror-

“- It's the horror-crux, that's what it is.”

I wonder if they're getting in like, I, these are something like that, is that? - I think so. - Could that be-- - Like in his hand? - I could be, I don't know.

It's also like, he's also went almost 80. He could just knock that shit in his table and boom. - Yeah, it's from shaken hands, Zach. - Well, that's what they said it was shaking hands. - They're obviously shaking hands.

- Good thing I see it. - Vigier's like, is he such a man? - Yeah, because he does a stupid bullshit tug of war. - Yeah. Bro, my hand did that shit with me, I'd push him over.

I wouldn't have absolutely none of that. - Get the fuck out of here. - Well, have you, Luke, you probably not remember the Zach I remember this, but do you remember there was a Red Sox Yankees game? I think it was 2004, the year that Red Sox won the World Series

for the first time and there was a brawl at Fenway Park

because each team was throwing at each other. At Don Zimmer, who was like this ancient coach for the Yankees. He was like in his 70s, charged at Pedro Martinez, who was like, my size, like five tent, like, is a stick.

And like Pedro like tossed him on the ground. So that's, when you say old man getting thrown on the ground, that's exactly what I think about that. - I do remember that. - Maybe we'll have to have Kyle put the, put in the actual,

put Pedro chuck him on the ground because I watched it live and I was like, oh God. (crowd cheering) - Oh my goodness. (crowd cheering)

- Don Zimmer and Pedro Martinez. - But talking about being a man, here's my pivot. - Good work. - Good work.

- Good work. - Yeah, thank you. - Thank you. - There is a new documentary out called Bansphere on Netflix, which was produced by Louis Thoreau,

who is actually what's his face's cousin, Justin Thoreau, the actor. 'Cause I did a video last night. I called him Justin Thoreau and I was like, oh no, they're actually related.

But he's a famous documentary. Yeah, they are cousins because I had to look it up after I, I was actually trying to find his, his email dress 'cause I wanted him to come on our show because it would be very important.

Turns out it's not easy to find. - Him doing internet stalking. (laughing) - Hey, anything for the show, right? So anyways, Brenda did you watch it?

- I did, yeah. - You watched it, Luke watched it and Zach watched half of it. - Yeah. - I want to hear your attention span. I want to, well, I had a hard time getting through it.

But I want to hear from the woman on our panel first

about what she thought about that train wreck with documentary. (laughing) - Well, I actually, I posted something this morning saying the thing that struck me the most was this kind of revelation that so much of it

comes down to daddy issues. - Yep. - Just as, you know, the irony of that being an accusation that gets flung at women all the time, especially ones that they consider sluts

or, you know, promiscuous.

“It's just like, oh, you must have daddy.”

It's like, it is, you know, the biggest projection, I think, you know, at its core as so much of the hate is. It's, you know, it all comes from some seed of insecurity. They need to hate someone else more than they hate themselves. And so, they have built this system by which,

like men have to prove themselves to them and they're devaluing women, despite the fact that it's most likely at least one woman, their mother that actually stuck around and loved them unconditionally.

And it's just this, you know, blame game of wanting

to measure up to someone who never cared about them.

And, you know, kind of question. - Well, and for those, just, I should have set the table at the beginning, but this documentary follows, I think it's three, they're really right-wing content creators who use masculinity

as their power over these guys. And they basically say, like, you don't need to listen to women, you don't need to listen to society. Listen to us, because we are buff and young and rich and we can show you how to do that.

But of course, in the documentary, you know, there's two guys who are obsessed with this one creator. And when you hear their story, it's like, yeah, I moved to Miami two months ago

to like chase that, get that bag, or whatever they say. And the 47-year-old probably shouldn't have used this. - No, it doesn't fit very well. - But it's like, oh, but I was sleeping in my car

at the entire time. Like, it's all scale.

“But like, I think what we have to talk about is,”

why is it so appealing? Because that's the scary part. These three idiots, I don't really care about them, but you watch guy after guy and boy after boy, like, just mob these guys wherever they go, they love them.

- I can't. - A huge percentage of the appeal, I think, is something that gets done not only in this, but just across the board in like right wing shit, is like the center piece of it

Like, for example, being like,

tell the infant and all that shit, that's a positive thing. But then they warp it and make it to this a totally other monstrous thing. They do that repeatedly. So like, you get to the core of like all this shit

that like, I want money, I want to be fit. I want to be with women, all that stuff. That's all appealing at its ground basis level. And they kind of hide in this place where like, "Hey, we're not saying anything crazy.

"We just want you to have this cool shit." And it's like, you're saying the crazy shit, you're just trying to make it seem normal by going, "Who wouldn't want this?" Like that's seen it.

- Well, they're very good salesmen of that shit. - And they add to that, that the opposite side doesn't want them to have that, they're like,

"Right, well, left doesn't want you to have money.

"They don't want you to be fit. "They hate you if you're attractive." - Yes. - And so they-- - They want you to be fit. They want you fat, ugly, and poor.

“Well, the other part that I think is super appealing to them,”

which also appeals to Magga, is that the message is essentially, your lot in life is not your fault. - Right. - Right. - Your lot in life is not your fault. And if you follow us, we will show you the path to glory.

And one of those guys in particular, it's like part of it's this, he gets a cut off of every, he has a sponsorship with this financial robin, it's not Robin Hood, but it's like a Robin Hood style thing. It's like follow my stock tips, and you will be loaded.

And then, of course, Louis puts like $500 into that, and he's like in two months, it was like all gone.

And that tool that they used,

he said it was like a two star in the app store, something like it's like all a scam. But these guys keep, they're growing and growing and growing. And like, there isn't appeal there, but how do we start to chip away at that?

Because if we don't, we saw the demographic shifts in 2024, the Democrats lost the young men. Now, we've seen some reverses with some men of color, but not white men. So what do we need to do to get these guys to realize

that they're being scammed, and there's no value in what those guys are peddling to them? - I don't think scamming is the angle. I think shaming is the angle. We need to shave them, not necessarily

to the people following them, but the people that are up top. Like, a particular, the dude who's hit himself in the face with a hammer. Talk about that again, just talk about what that is,

because I know we talked about the last episode. But his whole stick, like he wants this, just like chiseled jaw line, like having new some shit. And he literally took a hammer to his own face, or claims he did to make micro breaks in the jaw bone

so that it would fuse harder and make his job a little more pronounced. - Yeah. - Quick, quick, quick, quick. - Oh, Brad, I'm loathed to make you the representative

of women, so I'm not trying to do that here. But like, I'm trying to find the right way to phrase this. - Yeah, okay, I can ask for that. - I like that. - Dude, what, as you watching this,

like, do you know any women that are like this appeals to? - Oh, no, I'm gonna bet no. - No, but it would clearly, there are some women it does, right, 'cause there are women in the documentary. Though I do love that, you know,

it seems clear that they were sort of sold one version or behind closed doors that were maybe assured of something else. Like, no, no, baby, you really are the one for me. Whatever it was that was laid bare or, you know, the contrary was laid bare.

But I do think, you know, I think even beyond, 'cause the left also talks about this thing of like,

“your life is not your fault to, you know, borrow your description of it.”

And ironically, the right is all about personal responsibility. So this is like a weird hybrid of it of like, your victim of everything, but it's your fault if you don't do something about it, which like, sure. But I do think there's also this sort of,

this sense of belonging that, you know, I think it goes hand-in-hand with this whole like, male loneliness of the epidemic. But it's like self-fulfilling prophecy, it seems, because it's like, come in here to this group.

You'll belong with us. It's just gonna be men being men with each other. But then they make each other feel like shit. And it's all like, you were not good enough, you know, this, you know, everything is your fault

that doesn't go for you, like, well for you. The world doesn't love you. You, if you don't have all these things, you don't measure up your low value. So it's like, it's this very sort of like,

lonely group to be in. At least from the outside that, you know,

“I couldn't imagine, not that I can't imagine, right?”

There are groups, especially when you're younger as women, like, frenemies, right? That you like, you're in these friendship groups. And really, there's like bullies in there

That exists for sure for women.

But I think that we have more options where we're like, you know what? This sucks, and we're able to find friendships that maybe don't do that, and I don't know. Yeah, but I am curious, like,

I hear a lot about women who have seen this documentary and I haven't really seen them any men talk about, it, you know, publicly and stuff. So, I mean, it gives men a terrible name too.

“Like, I think that's the part that follows.”

They don't need any help with that, exactly, they do it just fine on their own. I think, that's the shell, for me personally, like, I'm obviously a little bit out of the left wing community to some degree in a lot of my stance,

is like, I look at this attack on men as one of the central reasons why this shit exists. Like, Luke, you saying they're, they're like, men don't have to, like, the average guy,

I don't think is a bad guy.

Like, I think there's a bunch of horrible men out there, don't get me wrong. But I think like, being a guy has become for a lot of people, like, a very quick trick, trick or like, men's son.

And it's like, that's not a helpful way to make this shit get better. Like, the manosphere exists a lot because of that mentality. And like, that's not a thing people want to let tend to say, but it's the truth.

Like, this whole men need to lock in and get together and be strong men is because they do feel like, hey, we're being kind of attacked. And it's bullshit, like, those men deserve to be attacked. The manosphere of fucking grifter sucks.

They deserve it. But the average man is just the dude trying to survive most of the time. Like, that is not usually the standard perception of men these days.

And I think that's a problem. - So I think I have a slightly different take on this. And I think that this is actually a cause of essentially conservatives destroying the middle class over the past 40 years. So I'll tell you why.

So like, in the 1980s, Ronald Reagan started to drop taxes for rich people. That's when trickled down economics started. And that's when wealth and accountability exploded.

We have always told men forever, that they are providers

and that if they have to be married, successful, two and a half kids, a house, two cars, and that's the American dream. Pension with a company, a lot of that is gone now. A lot of like 30 year old being able to buy a house right now,

not likely, like the average age of someone buying their first home is skyrocketed as well. I think that this is filling that void. And instead of blaming millionaires, billionaires and the conservative class, they have like,

at the same time there's also been more equality for women, equality for people of color, gay people, trans people. And these things have kind of come together.

“And that's why you hear them talking about woke ideology.”

- Yeah, I mean, that's the fringe, right? Like they're in that, oh, it's woke, it's going. But like in the end, like, I can't arrange. I don't have a single male in my life that is upset about how equality has gotten better

for other people of color and what. Like, I just don't like, I'm from a draw numbers perspective. Those people exist, but I don't think that they're like 50 or 30 even percent of men. I think the majority of men look at it and go great.

I'm glad that this is all working out for everybody. And I have Republican friends, mag of friends, who think what I'm saying. Like, I think we are to a certain degree in a bubble because we're all left leading people.

And we hear a lot of left leading ideology, where we hear it from the right. It tends to be the more fringe, crazy shit. The average person is not upset about this stuff, where it seems like we think they are.

- I'm going to do this. - Do those. - Well, what's the data to disagree with? Like, like, show me, tell me why. - I mean, you're talking anecdotally,

don't know anybody your life, it says that. I was at the gym two days ago, and someone referred to a new video game protagonist as a DEI hire, because the main protagonist is a female Japanese woman.

And I said, what do you mean by that? And he goes, well, you know, nobody wants to play as her. People want to play as a real man. And I said, I'm going to buy the game.

I'm going to play the game. And he's like, well, I know a bunch of people that aren't, because she doesn't even, she's not even attractive. And I was like, oh, okay. So you're just like a real big piece of shit then.

- I thought say those people don't exist. I'm saying that I don't think it's even close to the majority of people. - And I'm going to also push back with some anecdotally stuff in that I even hear that, and hints of that,

on more like moderate Democrat side. Sometimes we're like, oh, yes, this is all terrible terrible. But, you know, we're talking boomers here. - But you got to admit that the woke stuff went too far.

“And it's like, I think it is normalized to,”

I don't think it's that fringe for people to be like, well, no, no, I'm not anti-wo, obviously. Obviously, all these things are good. It's good to be more right. But like, you gotta admit that it's gone a little too far.

And I think that's just like a way of softening it.

pull that card, but like, even before this conversation

of wokeness really, and we started using that word, you would find instances of like allies supposedly. Like, you know, the number of times I've heard a man say, I'm the biggest feminist ever, you know, would buy me a mansion.

But like, it's like the, even those guys, as soon as there's like a situation where they perceive that a woman got something that either they, or one of their friends wasn't, or there's like any sort of like, you know,

little twinge on their insecurity, it starts coming out a little bit of like, well, you know, it's getting harder for men to get jobs these days

“or, and it's subtle, but I think that that,”

I think it's very pervasive. It just sounds slightly different. And to your point of like the, the men are bad sort of thing,

I think I hear you on that.

As a, you know, white woman who had to come to America and like learn a lot about racism and racism in America, you know. I, I can, I can empathize with hearing like, oh, white people suck and and feeling this sort of like insecurity about it, feeling some sort of way about it.

But I was like given the tools by friends and people around me to hear that and not take it personally. And, and to hear that and to now also be like, yeah, white people suck like we fucking suck. And I wish that that was more the conversation

on the men's side instead of, you know, instead of this validation of people trending more to the left being like, yeah, hearing that sucks, yes, it's ridiculous. Yes, it goes too far, being like, well, hold on. Okay, yes, we, we feel like that hurts to hear,

but maybe let's unpack why it's being said, maybe let's figure out how not to take it personally. Maybe let's have conversations so that we can hear this and turn it into something productive rather than, you know, turn it into a reaction that starts escalating into what we're saying now.

Yeah, no, I think that's right. And I think for me, like the problem I have it, this is a problem that is not just in this space, it's pretty much across all of politics and generally, is the broad generalization of these statements, right?

Like saying men's suck is a very like holy shit. I mean, like, yes, some men really suck some kind of suck. It's a spectrum, right? Some are great. It's a mixed bag.

It's a dangerous statement to throw out this broad thing as one giant group because like, yes, same thing as white people. Like white people have done despicably horrendous things. Does that mean that all white people suck just based on the basis of their white?

No, but it does mean that there's things we need to like, actually get in an unpack like you're saying, my arguments is centrally using these broad statements as a means to like show our position politically is actually doing damage outside of the core group of people that we are aligned with politically,

because most people don't pay attention to what we do.

“So that's how this like woke shit ends up becoming problematic.”

It's not Democrats who are frustrated by it's people in the middle who hear this and go, ah, this is choosing to work for the other side, though, the other side doesn't have like, it's less. It's a, it's a very different group of people that they're trying to put that thought into, you know what I mean?

But, but why do you think the right uses woke all the time? Like why do they use it? Like why do they attack woke ideology? Why do, yeah, why are they using that phrase and why are they continuing to because we don't use it?

No, why are they doing it? If it's, if it's not to push back on other groups of people getting more rights? Oh, it is. From the, from the right perspective, I'm more talking about what Bren is talking about where it's like, there are people in the middle who are kind of like,

well, maybe it went a little bit too far. Like, that's where the danger lies in my mind. Like when you have these people who are looking at it and going, well, maybe what did go too far, those are the people we need to talk to better. And if they understand like, there's a great nation to all of this.

That's like, the rights can keep doing this is what they do. So what, so what went too far? I'm not saying anything went too far. No, but what, what, what, what, what are they supposed to think? Like, like, what is it?

I don't, I mean, like, I, I can even speak. Live in people in my mind. They've been lied to and said that the D.I. stuff was too far. That's, I mean, that's the prime example, right? Is that they, they, they go to that because they've been told that D.I.

was this mystical system where people shot to the front of the line and women shot to the front of the line and everybody else got fucked. And it's not how it works. Yeah.

“And, but they've been lied to and that's how, to them, that's how it works.”

When I talk to them, that's how it works. And I would say on the, on the Ben's sucking thing, I mean, I just looked this up. One in four women in, in America, are they either were, there was an attempted rape or rape.

Yeah. Twenty five percent up. Let me follow that up.

Uh, because I had a Googler, because this is the stat that always makes it work

for me is 14 percent of men say they rape somebody. Jesus Christ. Thirty two percent of men say that they've coerced somebody to have

The same fucking thing. Yeah. That's the same thing.

So at, yeah, they just always say the word exactly at best.

Thirty two percent of men suck. And that's itself reported, right? It's something a lot of people will never say that. And you figure that you at least somebody in your life has done that. And if you know and you don't say anything, then you also suck.

And so we're really trending towards that more than 50 percent of men suck. Majorly. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

“So I just, uh, I think, um, you're asking us to say, like, well, that language hurts”

to hear, you know, yes. And so maybe we need to talk to the people who are using this and whatnot. And, and again, I'm saying, like, maybe we need to, we need men talking to fellow men. Like, Zach, you understand where this is coming from. And as much as you're like, well, that's too much and it's not hashtag not all men.

Like, you are capable of understanding that sentiment. And maybe instead of like asking people like me to stop saying stuff like that. And, you know, just women, you know, on the whole to stop saying that even other men will say that, uh, maybe start, you know, speaking to your fellow men and be like, listen, this is how we can hear this in a way that's not gonna, like, it's not gonna have us react

this way. Like, you know, there are tools to, to not take it so personally and to see it. And, you know, to, to give one example, right after the election, uh, you know, obviously white women, uh, at least based on exit polls went, like, you know, a slight majority.

I think it was like, 51-52 percent, uh, for vote for Trump, right over common.

And so there was a lot of obviously backlash, uh, from, especially women of color, uh, you know, saying, like, white women, this is on you. And like, and I, of course, I was like, well, it's not on me, but, you know, I was like, I, I, I drove, you know, eight hours, each way to PA to knock on doors for come, you know, and I worked my ass off, you know, but then I realized like, okay, but if I'm walking around

the street, and I see a white woman, 50 percent chance, she betrayed me too, you know. And, and that helped me understand it too of like, or just like, reet kind of come off that defensive thing of like, well, of course, you know, 50 percent, uh, it's, we betrayed, we betrayed everyone, you know, um, and it's not me personally, but like, there's, there's ways of like, thinking through it and, and helping your friends, maybe, like, develop

“these tools, because it's not going to stop at men's suck, right?”

There's going to be other things that they hear that make them feel like hurt, but they're going to want to react to, and, and I think giving your, your guy friends like these tools to hear things like that and really start to like, you know, digest them in a different way, and a, and a more healthy way is going to help, like, with a lot of stuff, you know?

I, I don't disagree with that. I, I think the challenge I have with it is like, I don't think it's on, like, man or in a position where like, they need to be able to hear the shit and just move on. Like, I don't think this is a, you know, that's not a bad point, but I think the point that I have with this, it's a problem is like, it's a problem I have with a lot of the

language left uses, like, what is the value, tactically of saying men's suck? What is, what is the movement to try to make men's suck less getting from that statement? That's where I start to disconnect, run, because I'm like, look, all the people who think men's suck right now will hear it and go, great, sounds good, zero other people are hearing it and getting the result you want from them.

So that's where I'm sort of pushing on this is like, a lot of men do suck, I'm not arguing that they clearly do, but what do you get tactically out of a, it's an attack and that's like going all the way back to my initial point of like, all it creates is an, like, the polar opposite alternative, which is the manuscript. It doesn't create conversation in the middle where you're converting people to your side,

you're antagonizing. So like, what, how do you not antagonize it also still call out men for being misbehaving in the ways that they do? That's where I'm trying to get. Sure.

But most people aren't thinking tactically. I know, that's the problem. You know what I mean?

“Well, but that's the thing, it's like, you know, and I think the people who are thinking”

tactically aren't using that language as much, you know, but they're being very careful. And so, you know, but like, we're talking about just normal everyday people and like a normal everyday conversation and also, I hate to point out, like, the men's suck is in and of itself a reaction, right?

And like, women have always been spoken about in ways like that, and still are.

Women are still, you know, we are, it is, and it's normalized, right? There are so many things that are just like just baked into our culture that put women down as a whole. And so, you know, but you don't see us creating a manuscript, like, the worst thing

blame that and say, well, well, when men hear that, they're going to go, you know, start

the manuscript, it's like, well, okay, that's, you know, I'm not, I'm not trying to blame to be clear, like, for my perspective is less, because I am a very, like, my whole thing that I like, and this is the tactics of the strategy of the whole thing. So, it's, for me, that's really where I'm focused, and like, I just look at it and go, there's gotta be a smarter way to do this, where you can get all the results you want, because

I'm behind all three of you on the intent of what you're doing.

“I just look at it and go, I think the movement is handling the optics of it, kind of”

fucked up, and it ends up creating fringe movements that get a lot of attention, and that's where we're at today. But let me, you know, let me, I understand you're doing it from the tactical perspective, but like, I think the challenge is that every woman has a friend that has been sexually assaulted.

Every woman, when she goes out at night, has to wonder, can I put my airpods in or not, because I have to make sure that I know who's around me at all times, because I am not safe by myself, that applies to rural areas, that applies to cities, like, they're on the subway, I can't be on a subway train if there's only one or two people, because I don't know who those people are, we don't have any of that, right?

No, we are not worrying about that, so, but like, but imagine, you know, it's very hard to put yourself in that position, but like, to think tactically with that's your entire life. Every time you leave, not what I'm describing, though, like I understand, like that is all true.

Well, what I'm in, I what I'm talking about is the larger conversation, not about the specific moments, right? Those specific moments are very different, it's not, I'm not trying to say that those things don't exist, but I'm saying is the way in which the movement we're trying to make where that's not the case is talking about this is not helping the movement advance, that's

the problem that I have with it. Like, I know what that one somebody to say, make rapists afraid again. I mean, that's got to be good, actually, but, well, I mean, actually, I'd be yes, that is good. I'm sorry, it's like, like, my thing is, like, the way this changes is winning

fucking elections, having left people on the left, winning elections who change policy, who get in control and take it away from these people, and we're not going to fucking win if we don't analyze why our tactic tactics aren't growing our movement, that's my whole reason for it. So like, for me, I'm trying to get to the same place you guys are, I'm just not looking

at it in this granular level.

It's more like, we need to win first, and then we can figure out how to take control of

all this shit and actually make movements that continue to grow and make women say for people of color, say, right? I guess I just see, I see this as being, I mean, there's this discussion I forget. What prompted it? This idea, this is like a discussion about like culture, you know, this is like a cultural

thing and culture begets politics, yes, sometimes politics, then begets culture, but

“I think it's important because like part of winning is a shift in culture, you know?”

I don't disagree with you, Zach, but I think that even even if we get like a Democrat in office, you know, in the presidency and like take over Congress and whatnot, like, that's not going to fix the manosphere, you know what I mean? All that anger is still going to be, and in fact, there's likely going to be a lot of angry manosphere people, like reacting negatively to that.

So I think that's why like part of the work has to be on the cultural side, for sure, you know, for those ones. I agree with that completely, it's not like you can't, you have to do both at the same time, right? I just what I don't want is the cultural thing to start impeding the winning thing, because

that's sort of what happened in a lot of, like a lot of this like woke shit, you know, like it gave ammunition to the right to amp it way up and use it as fodder to win. That's kind of what they do. Right. There's all a bunch of fucking lunatic blue heritage. They're saying this, this and this,

they're like ever, because I live in Georgia, I saw all of Trump's attack ads. They were fucking just drilling that point. It's all about trans people and all that stuff, but nothing was policy oriented. But what did we do? But what did the left dude to make that happen? What specifically

“did by saying trans people deserve the same rights?”

No, it's what they didn't, it's not what they did to what they didn't do. They didn't fight back against it correctly. So, but, so Republicans made up this thing. Yes. Right. And we did a bad job of pushing back. Okay. That, that I agree with, because I was going to say like, they created this thing.

And if you ask any of them, what woke means they can't do it, like they don't know the definition. And the definition when you tell people is not a big deal. It just means that you understand the plight of somebody else, and their different situation have a silly little thing called empathy. That's it. Right. Well, and I actually, I also,

no, that's not what they're saying. No, they are basically saying that gay teachers are

going to turn your kids gay. Yeah. The trans people are going to sexual trans, trans, trans, basically they're going to say trans people are going to sexually assault your children in a bathroom. These are the things that they're saying. We didn't do that.

There's, like, what they did was exactly, what, it's all sides to the same thing, it's

just like wildly different levels. What they did is they went and looked at the left fringe and went everybody thinks that teeny tiny bit. And it's like, what are you talking about it? Like there are people in the left who believed like very, very, very progressive stuff that the average person in the middle and the right would look at it and go, that's a little, that's a lot. And then they took it and emptied up 10 X and went, this is what

every person left it. And the left kind of went, like, well, we didn't say that. And that's, that's, that's the problem. You know, we had, there has to be a strategy to fight back against that shit in a way that it's not like, well, we don't actually believe that

“and then we move on because that's what we did and we got fucking full.”

I don't think the answer is by a normal, by a toning down the belief, alright? Like, no,

definitely not. It's the opposite. I think it's about how you describe the belief, like Tim's description of it is exactly right of like what we're, we're just basically trying to make sure everybody's okay. Like, that's it. Like, you just need to message on that shit way better than we're doing it right now as opposed to like, because all we do is play defense on the shit. Like, we all do it. No, we didn't say that's like lean

into it. Say, we want to protect friends. We want to protect this group. Like, that's our point. You know, like, if we did that, you would have had a lot more people going, oh, I'm down with that. They just didn't get it because they're right out messages. And that's how all this shit exists, that's how the man is fearing this because it's a bunch of people praying on fucking completeness information. Right. But these people also, I think, I mean,

yes, we should do that. But the people in the manifest, the people in that show, like those people are racist and homophobic, of course, they can all of that. So if we do that, and we say, which we should say, everybody deserves equal rights, whether you're a person of color, whether you're trans, whether you're disabled, whatever, those guys are going

“to go, they want to put them above you regardless of what we say. But I think that, I”

think, like, the better challenge, though, is that guys like us and guys who, like, will us believe in those things need to be the ones that are stepping up and holding other men accountable, which, let's be honest, has not really been a thing that men have done particularly well. You talk about locker room talk. We've all heard horrible stories when you look back 10, 20, 30 years ago. Oh, well, maybe not 30 for Luke, but, you know,

I can do 30, but like you, we all have heard horrible shit. And how many times have we gone, hey, that's fucked up. Don't ever, if you're going to do that shit, I don't want

to hear from you. Never, right? Like, I mean, maybe now, like, and now I now, but still

not nearly enough, right? Like, you look at, like, you know, if you, anything related to sports or W, you know, the, the wrestling folks, all this, like homophobic anti, all this horrible shit, we don't hold ourselves accountable. And I think that's really the only way that we're going to solve this. I don't think it's, like, just yelling louder about equal rights. No, I think, I think, like, we have people who look like us and

sound like us need to tell those people over and over and over again that that's not okay. I agree with that. And, and again, and I hate to, you know, sound like a broken record given that the tools on how to receive some of that information, because that's the magic trick that the man is fear, I think, you know, pulled off was like, it is modeling this way. Like, oh, when someone says this, here it like this. When someone says that, it actually

means this. And so it just trained these, these boys and these young men to hear things as an attack or to hear, you know, an attack as something personal and, and it just reinforced that. And I think, you know, we just need more men modeling a better version of that modeling, like, when I hear this, this is what I, you know, this is what I'm going to understand that as like, when I feel this way, this is how I'm going to process it, you know.

I agree with that. The biggest problem you run into is that it's like, actual generalization, you can use against most men is better, much more reactive than with it or like, men are going to hear something go, that's true. They're like, they're going to have that very, like, guttural reaction. So it's very hard to, like, especially young men, like, you know, 15 hard work. It's really like, when I, I don't even know, like, if you're, I mean,

this is going to sound better. If you're an unintelligent young man, what are the fucking odds that you're going to be able to even grasp the concept of these tools? I agree with the premise for a lot of people, like, it's possible, but for like, those young men that are really, like, getting just preyed on by these manosphere guys. So they even have the capability to use the tools, even if we put it clear as day in front of them,

“because it's sort of forcing them to do harder work. And like, that's why the manosphere”

works is they're giving them, it's literally the red pill or the blue pill, but they're not taking the pill. They think they are. Right. Right. But I think also, I think it's, yeah, sure. I think it's, it's a little bit, uh, infantilizing. I don't think we should infantilize men when they set up the patriarchy and are running shit. Like, they're perfectly

much as, you know, you say, oh, well, men are more reactive and stuff. Uh, not necessarily

men are more openly reactive, right? Men are allowed to, to react more obviously. And

“like, I think, um, I fucking, it's tough to just fill out on my brain. Never mind.”

Just, yeah. No, it's very, very important. Men are more like, we do have room to be open. We have like, own it forever. So now we feel like we could be angry if I want to be. Yeah. Actually, so I think the other thing is to, to use their language. Uh, if you want to be like, well, we are more predisposed to reacting to stuff like that. Like, make that, like, show them how to take responsibility. Be like, well, men, we are more reactive

because we're more easily triggered. Yeah. You know what I mean? Just like, talk about it

that way of like, well, we are, this whole thing about like, oh, we find it fun to trigger

people. Oh, they're so triggered because they want equal rights, you know, whatever. Uh, we men, if we're going to talk about how it's a little bit harder for us to, to manage our reactions to things that we got to acknowledge. Well, it, you know, we get more easily triggered. And, you know, and have that sort of like balance of like, it's a little bit embarrassing that we're allowing ourselves to just, you know, jump straight to anger and

use that as an excuse to not take responsibility for our choices. They're out of training.

“Yeah. I think that's my shaming. Exactly. Yeah. Well, Luke, you, you've actually had anecdotal”

evidence of shaming the truth and they're slipping them, right? Like, you, you, I mean, you tell you like you've got, I mean, I've had several DMs from people that are like, you illustrated exactly what I thought I was doing. You just said it really mean and made me think about it. And I was like, all right, I can get behind that. Because like, but I saw the other day that Erica Kirk gave a speech and she said, uh, I don't let anyone

disenfranchise you because you are a young man, especially a young white man. Oh, especially a young white male man, which I was, they're delivering the male now or something. Real curious. And then she's against the disbanding of the US. Yeah. Well, Luke, Luke,

do you feel disenfranchised? No, no, no, I've never, I've never, I've never once. No,

but she did say it. She did say it. And I think like, I mean, I think that's part of the power of that is that they just say none of this is your fault. And like, we are like the ultimate infantilization of your baby. I'm with this shit. And like, I think to your point, like, the things that have stuck in my head to my life, like, when I was being taught lessons, it was almost always the shit that worked with people being mean to me. Yeah.

Oh, yeah. It just, there are moments. I think back on like, Oh, my God. I can't believe I did that. And I'm so glad that somebody just verbally shit wants me. Yeah. I think that, like, I think that men, like, even though it sounds awful, like, men are very, like, impressionable in the sense of, like, if you're really mean to them, that shit will live in their head for a long time. And it will either, but it's, it's a risk, because it

bifurcates two ways. You either push them even further down the road that they were already going down out of spite, or it sits in their infestors and makes them change. It's one of the two of us at the time. So it's pretty, at least 50% effects it, probably. Well, I think, I mean, maybe there's like the carrot and stick thing, right? Like, again, it's, I mean, I don't think that's unique to men. Obviously, you know, maybe to the degree, right? But the whole reason

women, part of the socialization of women and why we behave more, you know, we're quieter, we're all these things, is because of shame, right? We, we are, we are shamed into so many of our behaviors from a very young age. And, uh, and it's true that, like, just, uh, like, evolutionarily, you know, we are a social species. We take our cues from the group. We have evolved to, if someone is doing something that is harmful to the herd, to the group, we tend to

reject them. Our brains are hardwired to feel reject and criticism as pain, in theory, so that we correct our behaviors, and perhaps do something that is more beneficial to the herd, because that helps the survival of the species, right? So we are all hardwired to, to hurt from bullying, from rejection, from shame, because it is anti-social, it is harmful to the group. But we need also,

“like, that's how, you know, we, when talking about the ministry or as this, sort of search for”

belonging and that self-fulfilling sort of cycle, you know, there has to be, I think, maybe, like, a way for men or men need to be practicing and modeling also the acceptance of good behaviors from each other. But, but the acceptance and the rewarding, cannot be a manifest for your behaviors. You know what I'm saying? Like, it has to be like,

and stride when you hear things like men suck. Like, that's great. You're, like, a, you are an ally

to, that's acceptance. You know, and that's ultimately what all humans are kind of looking for,

just because we're hardwired to do that. Yeah, I, that's really, I'm curious. I agree with all that. And like, I want to ask loop this because, like, at least as a, I don't know, Timber, you're a millennial, you're not a millennial, right? You're a gen X. I'm not trying to make so much. I am a, no, fuck, no, I am not. I am a zenial. Thank you very much. That's fair. Because, like, as a millennial dad, especially, like, this, my group of, like,

man at this age, we, very much fallen to line with what you just described,

“Brenna, of like, we want to, we see vulnerability on the whole as a positive thing. And that's why”

you see a lot of male, uh, see a lot of dads at my age, being very vulnerable and very open.

And like, you know, caring parents and very, like, it's a very different vibe,

but Luke, I'm curious, being Gen Z, do you see that same trait in your generation, or did you get fucked up by all this stuff? Because I do feel like millennials have tried to start to deliver on vulnerability being positive. And a lot of like being open and emotional is being positive, but I don't know if that continued with your generation or not. Uh, I'll tell it the best way to describe it is the dudes with girlfriends are vulnerable. Um, so don't have

girlfriends aren't. So I, I have had a story the time because I think a lot of the, like, women, my age have because of parents like you are like, that's the way she fucking be. I'm not going to accept something that sucks ass. That fucking guy is a piece of shit. I'm not going to accept that. Yeah. I want to go ahead. I had an idea. So I was obviously part of White Deeds for Harris in 2024. We were joking at one point. I want to get ready to take on this

that we wanted to create a progressive dating app because we wanted to show men that, you know, if you want to be able to date somebody, you have to treat women with respect and kindness and empathy. And if it was like sort of a like almost like a forcing mechanism, because there is one for the right, which actually is a grift and no women actually signed up for it in the guy's all paid money and then tried to add because they didn't get a trad wife. But do you think like something

like that would work? Like I just think about the cultural angle. It's like, if you're going at at like a man's like or a kid or like a young 20s something's like, face it. Like they want to, they want to like date and attractive women who's also nice and like funny and like want to be around. Like, but if it was only in one, you know, if it was all of the women were in the progressive one, like I wonder if that would actually change the behaviors or be like, oh, I can't be a piece of shit

“if I want to date somebody. My, I mean, I like it in theory and I think it's worth a try, right?”

But I think that my immediate thought was like, well, men on the right already talk about pretending to be like lying to men on the right door already. I see so many videos of women talking about how they'll go on a few days with a guy and then they'll be like, well, who do you vote for? And they freeze up like every time. Oh, I've seen the TikTok videos about that. So they're at, so the right actively does act their eyes. They know. Which by the way is worth talking about as men,

like that's that is a point to push. Be like, hey, man, the reason all these men on the right have to pretend to be more progressive than they are, or at least more, you know, less conservative than they are, is because that's what women want. You know, you talk about how to get women. This how you do it. But obviously in a way that's not like, you should fake it. You know, like, some of them, some of them are saying that. Some of them are spreading that like, oh, this is, you know,

this is how to get like live jokes or whatever. That's true. That's true for that. And does it seem like a good, that doesn't sound like a good deal. That doesn't sound like a good strategy

“long term though. Like, no, it's not. No, it's just garbage. Yeah. But I think, and also the other side”

to that is like, you know, I said this, this joke that I say all the time of like, if I had a dollar at every time, a guy said, I'm the biggest feminist ever, or you know, I'm the biggest feminist ever. But, you know, even the most progressive men and this conversation has had when certain things come up can sometimes, 10, like, it can sometimes turn out to be a discipline. Everyone will disappoint you, eventually. For sure. But sometimes it does feel like a very, like, very

performative when certain things kind of come out as, you know, as time goes on. And, you know, I've had friends, I had one friend, like, again, biggest, biggest feminist ever. You know,

there's totally always saying the right stuff, you know, whatnot. But then when push came to shove,

I called someone out once at work, a guy, for saying something, like somewhat misogical,

a bitch and difficult to work with. And when I asked about it, and I was like, so what's the story here, you know, just, you know, I want to know, and I kind of pushed on it, he was like,

well, the reality is the director's too much of an asshole and she's too woke to put up with

“his bullshit. And I was like, okay, so, so maybe that's how you should have put it, right? Like, maybe,”

instead of saying, she's difficult to work with and don't, don't try to hire her, you should start with our director is difficult and he's an asshole and she's too, too woke to put up with his bullshit. And this is another feminist, right, another feminist. And he kind of was like, yeah, he walks out of the room and my friend, my, my business partner at the time was like, you shouldn't have said that. And I was like, you know, hold the fucking phone, you are, you're my ally, you are,

yeah, you're right, I shouldn't have said it, you should have, you should push back on this and ask these questions. And so, I mean, not to say, like, yes, I'm not saying, I don't want to discourage progressive men and I don't want to suggest that all men are lying or anything like that, it's just, you know, there's, there's one of these, like, women are going to be kind of skeptical sometimes or if they're really going to, you know, they're going to be careful, you know,

yeah, well, we have, I mean, there's a very, there's a very clear example on our side where we have a lot of work to do it. And that's with with Hillary Clinton running for president, like, I mean, I, you know, I talked to a lot of people who men who are just like, I just don't like her. And it's like,

“yeah, but why? What is it? You don't believe that email stuff because that's bullshit, right?”

So, like, take that out. I understand you don't understand that. Why don't you like her? But you like Bill Clinton, okay? What is the problem with Hillary? I mean, I can answer that question. I don't like her. I don't either. And I had nothing to do with the fact that you will. Well, this blew up in my face. I mean, look, I think like Hillary Clinton is undeniably just, like, an relatively unfriendly seeming person. And you're, and Bill Clinton is a very friendly

seeming person. Like, to me, it's like literally top level or I'm just like, she seems really smart, but kind of like, yeah, and then he seems smart. Right. But what does that mean, though? Nothing. It has no subtext to it. Because she just comes off like you wouldn't want to hang out with her. That's like, that's the only reason. Like it has nothing to do with her being a female. And that makes you not want her to be president. No, I have nothing to do with their

“qualification. Well, that's what I'm talking about. Oh, people were in a valuation of humans.”

Oh, no, no, no, no, no. Great thing that you bring up, Zach. This, sorry, Tim. Uh, no, no. Just the, you know, the idea that she's not, uh, someone you want to hang out with, you know, the same thing was said about Kamala. And, and that just, like, in the film industry, we talk a lot about the boys club. And a lot of people are like, what's not, no, there's no boys club. It's not this. It's not, you know, I'm not a sexist, whatever. It's just I, I hire my friends.

And it's like, well, all your friends are men. And so there is like this, this degree to so much of the, the professional level and more, you know, political level and stuff comes down to what kinds of friends you have. And, and, and I think, you know, you know, we can talk about all the threads that that add up to that this idea that, and this, uh, propagation of this idea that like men and women can't be friends or that, you know, if, if, if women are nice to men, they should make a move. And,

you know, this, it puts us at odds in a way where men can never, will never be able to imagine,

having a beer with a woman who's running for president because they just don't do that with any women in their life. And also, can we just officially put in the ground, the like, I like a candidate that I want to have a beer with because like, do you know who the one they used to say that about all the time, George fucking W Bush, the alcoholic who doesn't drink, by the way, anymore, and basically snorted his way through his 20s. Yeah. We're like, I like that guy. I mean, there's nothing wrong with

people getting, oh, clean, I don't mean that, but like, people were like, fuck Hillary Clinton, that bitch. And they're like, I like George W Bush. I want to have a beer with him, even though he murdered a million Iraqis. No, I get it. I think the challenge though is like for the average person in America, if you just come off as like friendly and fun, you win. Like, that's it. Like, it's it's that simple. Like it's it's not an analysis of like, oh, but also he did all this shit. The average person's

like, I don't carry seems like a nice guy. And that's it. They don't write, but for a woman, right, like, Hillary, for example, when she was trying to do healthcare in the 90s, the right turned her into a villain, they're like, well, who, how dare she? How dare she like get involved that bitch? And it's like, yeah, I understand why Hillary doesn't have a giant smile on her face all the time. And it's trying to play k people. And I was actually, we were like, loved seeing the

deposition that she did where she just shredded everybody, because she had finally dropped

like, eviscerated them. But like, that's the disadvantage also of a woman being in politics, is that, like, they're like, it's like they can't win. So like, that's the sort of thing where I mean, like, everybody thinks George Bush, and everybody keeps saying, I wish George W Bush was back.

“And I'm like, what, you want the, if you want to be lied into another war? No, I'm like, you want another”

economic catastrophe. Really, like, luckily, I think that, I do you're right, but I think a huge piece of it is like the average politician also just kind of sucks male or female. But like,

sure, I think, like, because I always hear like, a woman women, a parent can't win. And I'm like,

dude, if you had put like Michelle Obama in instead of Kamala Harris out, she would have won this last election. I don't care, anybody said, like, she's like, she's fun. People like they respond to her. It's like the basis of the basis of success in politics is are you an enjoyable person to be around potentially that usually tends to be the thing where Trump is an athlete. But like everybody else, it's the ad. Trump is different. But like, even like, Gretchen Whitmer, like, when when

caught when Biden first dropped out, my thing was like, I want a primary and I want Gretchen Whitmer, because I think that she is fun, relatable. She's a badass. Like, she could have fucking killed it. Like, I didn't, like, it didn't even compute to me to think about like, well, her being a

“female is a liability. And my god, I don't think it is because in the end, I think it's actually an”

asset because she is a person is awesome. And people will see that. And that will resonate and she

could win this fucking election. So like, I think it does come down more to are you just a person that resonates with people or not, you know? You, I mean, yes and no, just also, I hear what you're saying. And I don't entirely disagree. I agree with you that like, I agree with Tim, I'd love to put it to rest this idea that like, we should like people based on whether we think we can have a beer with them. Yeah. At the same time, we do know that a significant portion of the population

make their decision based on that or like, that's a big factor, right? 100%. And like, yes, I think it helps if, if yes, men and also women, right? Like, we are not immune to those biases that like, if, if we think that that a woman who's running is a good hang, yes, I'm sure it helps. But I don't know, like, you know, I've seen time and time again in, you know, in professional settings, you have equally, you know, qualified candidates. It's, it's usually going to be the

man that's picked, right? Like, that's the issue. And so if you have like, maybe maybe, if the the woman is like insanely more relatable, it'll tip the scales in that favor. But if you had, you know, someone who's like, even comparable on, you know, who's like a man running against her that it just, I don't think it's, it's enough. It's necessarily going to like automatically go her way,

“I guess. I think what you're saying, if you like like a man and a woman who are like equally”

likable, you think the man would win because of the fact that he's a man. I think that a man is going to be more likable, naturally. I think he's going to have to do less to be seen as more likable. Yeah, personally. And then, and then also once you get close, I think that yeah, the, the scales aren't going to necessarily like break in her favor. I agree with that. It's, yeah, it's, it's, although I don't know, I mean, I could see like, I, it's totally guessing,

but like, I think because you're right about the dynamic of like it's so much easier for a man to come off that way, what a woman shows up in the national stage and they're like, oh, look, she's spray too. It's almost like a novelty level where it's like, she's awesome and it gives her a lot more lift because like in the past, everybody's just like, oh, the guy is obviously going to be the more likable one. It's people like somebody who can stand out from the, you know, from the

pack. And it would be an asset. I don't know. But then it'll be turned into like, oh, well, she's a pick me or, oh, well, it's an act. Go switching or she's doing, yeah, she's putting up performance. Well, Kamala had that. I mean, the Kamala things is, is, is tough because she got put in a top position and she didn't have enough time. But, but they did that to her, too. Like, oh, look at her doing the silly dancing and all her laugh isn't, isn't genuine because that was a thing

with her, right? Like the laugh is funny laugh and like all these things. And then on Whipper, who I agree is a total badass. What was the thanks she got? They tried to kill her. Like the, like the abolition, a militia in Michigan plotted to kidnap and kill her. And there were, there were Republican sheriffs in those places that did barely anything for it. So like the message is like, you know, it's, it's just a tough thing. The other thing I'll say about Michelle Obama,

which I think people tend to forget is that people love Michelle Obama because she's amazing.

But once you become a candidate, it is a completely different game. You probably don't remember Fred Thompson. I do. Fred's, Zachary, my respect Thompson. And if you have seen diehard, too, he is the airtrap guy in charge of airtrap controller. The Republicans in 2008 were like, this is our guy. Or he was, he was saying, they were like, this is, this is, this is the guy he is Ronald Reagan. He's the actor. He's like,

And he just, like, you know, but like, but she is. No, she is. She is. And I'm not, again, like, if you put

those two together, she would have, she's way, yeah, but my point is, like, people like people that don't run. And then when you become a candidate, it is a completely different element. And do you know how much racism would have come out on her worse than her husband because you're throwing a woman into it on top of all those, like, horrifically racist memes that even Donald Trump

“shared last month. I think it's just a different thing. But yeah, I mean, we are, we are way,”

way over. But I want to, I want to end business really good. That's really good. But I want to ask, is there this is a tough question. I think I already know Zach's answer, but it is there a, they're going to be 3000 candidates running for president. This is my joke, the 3000, is there a, is there a, are woman or several women that you would like to see run for the

Democratic nomination? I'm going to ask everybody who wants to go first. Why do you know my answer?

Well, you just said, "Gretchen Whitmer's a badass." I thought you were thinking about that. I thought you were thinking about that as they know. Like, yes. No, no, no, no, that's, no. Okay. No, I was like, no. You actually were saying very good things about that. Yeah, Whitmer, which is fair. It's true. Good. Good. I thought you were a jack in me. No, no, no, no, no, no. I guess, well, AOC, uh, I want AOC run for Senate. I want her in the Senate.

“Yeah. Yeah, for Senate. I think also, I think AOC also is a problem of, like, a lot of magas still”

really, really hate her. Oh, my God. I love AOC. Uh, I think, you know, Elizabeth Warren is a safe choice. And, you know, relatively safe for a woman in a country that has, as keeps proving that it seems incapable to elect very, very qualified women. Um, you know, I, I know a lot of people have favorites for, for the 2021 already. And I'm, I'm just like, oh, I can't know. But I guess, maybe Elizabeth Warren would be, it would be like a favorite. Um, you know, AOC, but I just don't

think it's, I just, I want her in the Senate, you know, perhaps. Yeah. Yep. Okay. Zack, you're next. Yeah. I mean, I think Gretchen Whitmer fits the bill the best from my perspective. She's obviously the governor of a bit of an important state. She is extremely likable. I mean, what's that fucking track that they did? Um, it's like the wraps on about Whitmer. I'm like a big wrench. That's it. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. The way she embraced it like that, I'm like that. She fits into like the

era in which of how you run for politics. So they she fits really nicely. AOC, I, I think, I like AOC as a human being. I think as a presidential candidate, she would get fucking destroyed. So like, I, I just think like she doesn't have the, I, I think the average swing boarder would look at her and be like, I'm not letting this person be in control of the military. Like from a social perspective, I think she's on top of her game. She has great plans. But I think she's just

like so incapable of dealing with some of the things in a lot of voters look at and care about that I think they'd be like, nope, instantly, no way. And it would just be up. So I'm more on the camp of like, and I like Elizabeth Warren too. I think she's getting a little agey, you know, the little she's getting up there. So that's a problem. I like that she might be one of the ones who actually goes after the money that caused. Yeah, she'd be, she'd be the best the most qualified

for that. I like a lot of her plans. I just worry about the age and, you know, she's, she's 76. Yeah, she's freaking old. All right, look, look, look here next. I said AOC, that's no much. Oh, you said AOC. Thank you, though. So I was Elizabeth Warren voter. I was in 2020. She was, she was, she was my candidate at the beginning. And, you know, I, I really love her. I love how she ended Mike Bloomberg's campaign with like one sentence in one of those debates. If you go back,

she like, it literally, she like just smack, and then she did it to that guy that was the bald guy

that ran for a brief second. He was at like one percent or something. I don't remember his name.

She eviscerated him to, which was great. But she 76. I actually would love her as the chairman of the

“banking committee and said it. That's what I want her to be. Because I want her to go after the banks”

and I want to make them pay. Women, uh, uh, uh, Gretchen Whitmer for sure, AOC for sure. I'm less on the, on the military thing, because I actually think that, um, the war in Iran has sort of showed a split that like Americans are kind of tired of these like interventionist bullshit. Oh, yes. People don't want to. And I think that we are long overdue for a reduction in military spending, because there's no way that we can get ourselves out of this mess, continuing to spend one

one point two trillion dollars per year. Um, you know, I think any of the, any of the women in the Senate are, are more than capable of, of being, um, being president. But I think I would put Whitmer and, uh, AOC at the top of that. And, uh, you know, come on, come on, come on, come on. Maybe going to run

True. True. But we've had a lot of people run once and get killed and then come back. Like,

Joe Biden ran 88. Yeah. But it's 2020. So unhappy if she was the candidate. And I think I, I, I voted for it. I donated and saying amount of money to her, but like, I just, that was circumstantial. You know, is more so like, I'll take what we got, but she is not even top 10 in my opinion of, like, qualified candidates. Well, you're going to get, you're going to get plenty to choose from. Yeah. So I would tell you that right now. All right. Well, so we all, we all like, some of the same people,

you know, we'll see. And there's also baby people that come out of nowhere. I mean, there are, there are some people in the hospital, baby. But that's not what we were asked about women. Zack, not not. I just be in general. Well, I will say, I mean, to that point, though, you know, when you

brought up Hillary Clinton, part of the reason I didn't like her, and I defaulted to her originally,

“until a friend was like, you should look at this guy Bernie Sanders. Um, was because as a, as a woman,”

I felt very pandered to and I realized like, oh, Bernie Sanders policies, actually are more beneficial to women. And, uh, and then, you know, and I didn't like a lot of the, how it went down with how the campaign was treating women. So it's not as simple as like a woman running. And by the way, I think that Republicans are very likely to run at least a VP next time who's a woman to be like, see, you know, we live women. We're fine. We're fine. We're, you know, kind of Sarah Palin,

sort of vibes. Uh, I'm so big. You know, that's, that's your, uh, kind of like that. Well, I, bread, it's a good point because in 2008, I was at Obama person, not a Hillary person. And mine, mine was mostly related to, really related to the war in Iraq. He was against it. I mean, he wasn't in Congress, but he made his feelings known and she was for it. And that was really it for me. So it, but, but, you know, so there is, you can be against her and not be sexist.

Like it's, there's obviously like, yeah, it's a part of it also to be fair. Like personally, I don't love how Monica Lewinsky was treated. Originally, you know, she was a 20-year-old intern or 22-year-old intern, you know, not to bring up a whole new topic. I know you guys have to go, but, uh, you know, no, yeah. And she was treated horribly. She was treated horribly. And the culture was different at the time, you know, we have come a long way for sure, but I, you know,

part of that, I think is, that was, you know, part of it for me. I, that's totally fair. I mean,

“I think I was in college, college, yeah, when that happened or high school, I don't remember, so”

I exist. You did not exist. We know, Monica Lewinsky, can I get a history lesson here? Was a White House intern? She's about your age. Oh, where? Yeah, yeah, no. And I mean, she, like, Kudos to her for like, leading a, what seems like a successful life, and she's out there and like, you know, glad that people are, are realizing that she was not the villain as a 22-year-old fucking intern with, with the president of the United States in there, like, you know, I'm, it's,

anyways. So, well, in that note, why after talking about Monica Lewinsky, that's rap. Yeah. This is actually one of the most, the most fun, I mean, we're talking about really tough stuff was really fun, episode, and Brenna, thank you very much for joining us and tell everybody where they can follow you. All the apps, except for the Nazi one, Twitter, uh, Perez Brenner, Perez Brenner, on all of them. Yeah, all right. We'll go follow her. And thank you, Brenna, for joining us. And thank you, everyone,

for watching. And also, you're listening to this on Thursday, which means that the second

episode of Get Angry is out the door. What are you talking? It actually got, uh, uh, we got warnings on YouTube because Lewinsky wouldn't kiss on them if they were on fire. And so, we got us demonetized. No, we got limited monetization limited limited. We're going to get demonetized every fucking guy out. I'm going to be real. It's going to be a lot of trouble for us. Yeah. Well, what was the title of the show? Wasn't the title angry about this week? Yeah, lots of things.

“So many things. Lots of fires of anger. Brenna, do you ever, if you need to, like, if you”

film, it's like a, my memory just blacks out, and then I wake up, like with a fucking blood pressure pump on me. That show is a tornado. Yes. It is a total tornado. I mean, I'd enter a fun tornado, compared to a bad tornado. But if you need, if you're feeling low energy, watch that on at the gym when you're in treadmill. Oh, you'll, you'll have it at them. You'll be like 12 on the, on the, on the treadmill. You'll just be like sprinting. You know, yeah, my heart condition. Oh, yeah. I got one of

those, too. Yeah, do we need to, do we need a warning at the beginning, Luke? Do we need a, like, if you were like, I don't know, if you have, like, an epilepsy warming, you should, our heart murmurs. You should do that for sure. Yeah. I have to talk to our attorney. We like, can we be funny

also going to announce two new shows next week. I think, early one. So we're going to be talking

“about those next week. But if you follow us on find out media on, uh, sub stack and on YouTube and”

everywhere else, you will get, uh, the links to those. So, um, with that, thank you, Brenna Perez,

for joining us. This was great. Everybody have a wonderful weekend, and we will be back

on Tuesday. Bye, everybody.