Monte Mader Deconstructs Alt-Right Christian Nationalism

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Find Out podcast. There is a lot of news out there, a lot of bad things, but we're actually going to kind of talk about something a little bit different today because we have a guest that we have so many questions for. I know I do because I don't understand that world,

but we have Monte Matter here, made her here with us.

Excuse me, God, I always screw up the names.

I always do it. Who used to be part of the far right Christian nationalist community or world, and has now completely moved to the other side, and is a cultural critic, musician, and podcasters. So, Monte, welcome and apologies for screwing up your name,

which I have to say to everybody when I start. Literally every time. That's okay. Every time. Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.

Yeah, so Monte, the four of us that are with you, had religion in their backgrounds, but no longer have it.

“And I think for years, we have sort of scratched our heads about how”

the hell do these deeply religious people, believe in and support till the end of time, a man that literally like exhibits none of those traits. And in fact, this morning took a shot at a guy who he criticized for getting married too quickly after his wife passed away.

This is the guy, Joke. This is one of the talk. Joke Kent, who was under Tulsi Gabbard in resign, so he decided to attack him, which freaks up the fact that Donald Trump cheated on all three of his wives.

Multiple times. Multiple times, including one home with the baby. Baron. Monte, tell us a little bit about your upbringing, and how your worldview was sort of shaped as you were growing up

in this very right-wing world. Yeah, so I grew up very much at the intersection of Republican politics and religion.

That was always a married thing for me.

There was never a point in my life where that wasn't in the conversation.

“It was always, you cannot be a Christian and vote Democrat.”

That was a baseline. So there's a couple things that happened simultaneously. I grew up out in Wyoming in a really rural area. My family was the type of family that we stock piled arms against the government in case they ever ruby ridged us.

There was a lot of paranoia. A lot of it. The government does this after the Columbine shooting. A lot of conversations around what the Democrats are going to hold you at gunpoint and it's your job to die for your faith.

These were very much conversations that I grew up with as a kid. And the hard part about it is because I not only was part of the church and my dad and his brother. My cousin were all involved in Republican politics. My dad was a state house representative later in his life.

His brother was a state senator. My cousin was the county commissioner. My grandfather was kind of someone who was behind the scenes pulling a lot of strings.

And so I never had an opportunity to see a separation of those things.

But also I went to all Christian national schools. I was privately tutored in theology and Christian apologetics by my dad. So you're not just getting this information from your parents. You're getting it from your pastor. You're getting it from your teacher.

You're getting it from your best friends dad. And when you're a kid and you're growing up, you're you think you can trust the adults. And it's all of the adults telling you the same thing. So you grow up. There's that aspect of it.

Plus I was not allowed to listen to secular music. What I could watch in movies and films was highly police. Two I could hang out with was highly police. And you have the other side. The religious aspect of it that from the time you're very, very small.

There's the threat of help. There's this ingrained belief that you're broken. You're sinful. You're evil. You can't do anything right.

Don't question God but God's word comes to you through. God ordained male authority comes from your pastor comes from your dad. And if you ask questions and you rebuff that then you're sinning.

“So you end up with this huge overlap of everyone in your life is telling you this exact same idea about the political structure.”

And also those same people are the people that are supposed to be giving you God's word. And any kind of question against them is rebellion. So that was the hybrid that I grew up in and I went to Liberty University. I graduated from Liberty University. Yay.

I left. I was out before the pool boy scandal. Oh God. But it even there. It wasn't until I got to Liberty and I encountered other people who were not.

Where my family was from who were not deeply conservative who were some of them weren't even Christians. That's just where their parents wanted them to go. That was the very first time I encountered any kind of other worldview. That wasn't in this very insular community and even in that insular community. My family wasn't even the most conservative.

So there was a family we were friends with that owned a gun shop. Who they would not allow the women of the family to wear pants. And so when we stayed with them at one point they babysat us. I had to wear skirts the whole week because they didn't believe it was right for a woman to wear pants. And we had other families that were they would homeschool only because they didn't want any kind of.

So it was a extremely insular environment. I graduated high school. I had just turned 16 went to Liberty.

“That was my first experience experiencing anyone who had any kind of different belief system than what I did.”

So I'm having a hard time. There's a couple of things that there you just gave us a lot. So first of all, just the fact that people at Liberty University gave you different viewpoints. I know what it's like. What the reflection of how conservative I grew up was.

Yeah, the other one that I had never heard before.

Maybe I'm just ignorant to this. And I'm going to screw up the name, but use a Christian apologetics Christian apologetics. So that's essentially the the type of debate that Charlie Kirkton is Christian apologetics. It's one lineers, it's very combative back into the corner. I've got my list of talking points.

I've got my verse. I can throw at you. And if you don't speak Christianies, you won't know what I'm talking about. That's Christian apologetics. Yeah.

So I was trained for five years in in that type of talking form. So okay. So you go to Liberty University and do you go. Wow, this place is liberal. Is that like what we're like, I'm sorry.

I'm just hung up on this. I'm just like, I'm still.

Yeah, what was your first free act?

You're like, whoa, these people are like, very progressive. So well, there was there was a few things that happened. It was my first time encountering people of other races outside of like some indigenous communities. Yeah. So really, I mean, I had maybe met two black people my entire life prior to that.

And so, you know, I'm in school in Virginia. And it was my first time getting that different perspective. That's not Hollywoodized or churchized. And I grew up in a very, very like, homogeneous white community.

“But I remember, so I went to a Christian Nationalist boarding school for eighth grade and high school.”

And so we had very strict dress codes. We had very strict lights out. You would actually get detention if you were caught listening to secular music of any kind. And so getting to Liberty and I could listen to whatever music I wanted. Those are my roommate showed me to pop and it changed my life.

I could. I could in large part, Liberty has a dress code, but it's not super strict. It's it's more along the lines of like you can't wear PJs to class. But you can wear jeans and a t-shirt. And you can wear flip flops.

And I was just like, that this is great. And two years in because I had lived in boarding school for so long. Someone I went to boarding school with was friends with the provost or the college. So I was able to appeal to the provost to move off campus. My second, my second year, the end of my second year.

So then I was off campus. And I could just kind of do whatever I wanted. And I could, I had my own car. And I was just like, this is, this is great. This is compared to where I had come from.

It felt really a lot more relaxed. And it wasn't necessarily that the teachings were liberal. The teachers, teachings were very in line with what I had grown up with. But I was getting this opportunity to talk to other people who were not in the same belief system as I was. And who came from one of my best friends was from New York.

And so it was this, you have this new kind of access to information and these new thought points.

I had never been exposed to other opinions ever.

And so that was really what was changing for me. One, it just being more relaxed overall. And the people there, the students there having differing opinions. Monti, what was the first. Seed of doubt. Like how I, when did, when did the construction begin in your, in your brain?

Was it like when you were like 10 did you start asking questions in your own head? Or was it that it all happened as life happened? So I had my first moment. I remember. Really having this bad feeling in my gut and kind of thinking, huh, that's convenient was when I was nine.

So I had gone to this, in this all happened within a month period. I was going to Sunday school one day. I was wearing a, a sun dress. And you know, like thick, sleeveless sun dress, but it was just above my knees because I'm tall.

“And the teacher gave me the whole, well, you need to be careful what you wear because you're going to cause men to stumble.”

And I don't remember exactly what I said because my vocabulary is better now. But I said something along the lines of, if men are supposed to be the leaders, why can't we trust them to lead themselves? Why is it on me, the child, to make sure a grown, it was something along that line in a much more nine year old fashion. She got furious at me. I was asked to leave Sunday school and I wasn't welcome back. So after that, I went to adult church.

And within the next month, I heard my first wives submit to your husband's sermon. And I'm sitting next to my dad was my only parent. I'm sitting next to my dad with my Bible open. And I can see the passage in Ephesians where the passage starts with the verse submit to one another in love before it jumps into wives. And I see the husband's portion, but the, the preacher didn't have time to get into any of those verses. He just ran out of time.

Just give that chunk. He skipped that part. And I'm sitting there and I remember just getting furious because I knew that it was unfair. I knew I was like, that's not fair that like the wife has to be doesn't get to make any decisions.

But I knew that that was unfair. And I also knew I remember having this thought of like,

I was like, wow, it's really good to be a guy. Wow, how convenient. And so when I decided that day, I didn't say anything. I didn't complain. I didn't want to make God mad. So my solution to the problem was when I went home that day and went to go change my dress.

I took my Bible and I threw it across the room. And I was like, okay, I'm just not going to get married then. Cool. Like, I don't want to disobey God. Awesome. I'm just not going to get married because I'm not doing that. And that same issue came up three years later.

And my dad saw my face this time I was 12. And I said that. I was like, I don't believe I should have to submit to someone just because he was born with a penis and I wasn't. Like, I don't agree with that. And then he goes into the whole, well, it's about picking the right person. And he should take your opinion into account.

But you couldn't convince me that a relationship where only one person gets to make decisions, only one person has resources. Only one person has autonomy. Only one person has leadership was fair. And I just couldn't buy that.

And the conflict that I had with that throughout my preteen in ten years was I would recognize that it was unfair and unjust. And I would see how miserable women were in my church. But I would also have that opposing conflict of this is my rebellion. This is my pride.

I'm rebelling against God's plan for my life. I need to push it down. I need to push it down and also this belief of, well, maybe when I get older, I'll understand and I'll feel differently. I also knew from the time I was 12, I didn't want kids.

And that was not an option. You know, the call for your life as a woman in this movement, like our pastor sat us down. And your job is to get married, serve a husband, have as many children as you can.

So you can direct quote outbreed non-Christians.

“And so you grow up in this movement where that's what you just believe that you're supposed to do.”

So I had kind of this push and pull all throughout my teen years of recognizing that was unfair, not wanting it. And just in my mind deciding I just wasn't going to get married because I didn't want to sin. But also on the other side deciding, like fighting with this, I'm wrong. I'm being prideful, I'm rejecting God's plan for my life. Yeah.

So that was my first one.

But my big crack, my big, oh wait, this is wrong. Something is really wrong. Happened at 23. What was that? That was the first one I'm curious for the second one.

So the big break where there was no push and pull, there was no kind of falling back in line was I was engaged in my early 20s. I was doing I graduated college at 20. I found the Christian guy. I was going to get married.

I was doing all the things right. And his half sister turned up pregnant and she was 12. Oh. And we found out that she had been being molested by her brother, her brother, her mother's boyfriend. Since she was nine.

And she finally got her period and she got pregnant. So there's been going on for three years. There was a criminal investigation ongoing. It was this huge thing. And I was in the room.

I was close to the family. So I'm there with her. And I'm I'm looking at her.

“And she is I just remember thinking she is so small.”

Like her body is so small. And understanding at that time, I had graduated college. And I went to my degree. I changed degrees a few times. Ended up being clinical exercise science with a focus in pre-med in pre-physical therapy.

So I understood reproduction at this point scientifically. And I knew what it could do to her. It's especially for size for age. And there was one day. And again, there was an investigation ongoing.

Her stepmother. So her dad's wife calls me and says, I can't get back to work in time. Or from work in time. Can you take her to this class for teen girls? Yeah.

Sure. I just want to help. So I drive her there. And we get to this room. There's about a dozen girls.

The oldest is 19, the youngest is her 12, most of them are 15, 16. All of the fathers, except for one, are over the age of 21. Jesus. And only one of the fathers is there because he's the age appropriate boyfriend of one of the girls. And so I'm sitting in the back of the room.

And pregnancy has always been in my top three fears. Like I would rather swim in open water with sharks. Like it's so scary to me. I'm sitting in the back, turning green as a 23 year old. Just like, oh, this is a lot.

But I realized that there was the first time in that moment that I realized I had never heard the church or my dad or anybody call for male accountability.

“And I was like, where are these adult men that have impregnated these 15 year olds?”

I want to know where the fuck they are. And I also, that was the first time that instead of just defaulting to my, my pre planned thought of like, well, you know, two wrongs don't make a ride. And yes, it's not her fault, but it's not the baby's fault. I was like, you know what, I don't actually know anything about abortion and the history of abortion. And I've, I've been an insomniac since I was 16.

So that night, I spent, I was up all night researching abortion in the United States. And the first statistic I came up to was that 93% of abortions happened before 14 weeks. And I was shocked. I was absolutely shocked. At that time, I thought that after birth abortions were real.

That's infanticide.

“That's never happened. Yeah. I thought that most abortions, I had been told most abortions happened in the second and third trimester.”

I had been told that pregnancy from rape never happens.

It's a democratic excuse to kill babies. Like, I believed all these things again because you hear them your whole life from every adult you ever know. And that was the first time I recognized one that it was absolutely utterly evil to force a child to bear the consequence of a grown man. First of all, especially when it could kill her. So I was immediately pro-choice after I was like, no.

And that was the first time I realized I had been intentionally lied to.

So about a question in the conversations around the 12 year old.

“Did anyone ever say the term sexual assault or rape?”

They said rape. So that, but this was, this was with my fiancee's family who was not who were not Christian Nationalists at all. Yeah, so this was his family. This was not my family. My family would have had a very different response. Oh, they're responsive. Oh, yeah, I was going to ask. Oh, they're, like, their response would have been, oh, well, she has to carry the term.

No questions asked, like, we're sorry. We're sorry that this happened, but ultimately it's a gift from God.

And this is what she has to do. His family to their credit, especially her stepmother was like, she gets to make every decision along the way. We're going to support every decision her makes. She makes, we are also going to, like, help the police. We are going to press charges. We are going to, they handled it exactly the right way. And it was, that was also very different for me to see that they responded to her with such compassion and support versus demonization.

“Because we see this culturally now outside of the church where, you know, the first question that a woman gets asked if she's been assaulted is, well, what were you wearing?”

Were you drinking? Were you drinking? You know, where were you? Why were you doing that? And to see them that there was absolutely no response of that at all. Because when I was growing up, it was purity culture is obviously negatively impact men and women, but it's often directed more heavily at women. And both myself and any of my friends who have deconstructed or people I've met that deconstructed from similar groups have all said that Pregnancy outside of marriage no matter the cause was so shameful and so bad that all of us said we would rather tell our parents that we had accidentally killed someone, then that we had gotten pregnant.

And that's, that was, that's a very common sentiment in women who have left this particular type of high control movement. So so so you're 23 you you experience this at what point do you start asking if religion is just a tool that was created by and serves to protect men. So my this really was at this point I didn't question Christianity itself, but I was like whatever I was taught was wrong and I had decided so I started looking at church history. I started looking at US history from a more like expansive view. I started looking at the arguments around homosexuality because I knew that the in the abortion argument I had been intentionally lied to to manipulate me.

So now all of these other issues are up for grabs because I'm going to find out the truth because now I pissed. It's unraveling so I and I made the decision after that point in my life that I was going to evaluate anything and I was going to change my mind and get disowned by my dad if I had to. Because I wanted to know the truth and because I didn't want anyone else to be victimized because I was playing along with an ideology that was a lie. But for me realizing that Christian American Christianity Christian nationalism was the problem happened when Trump announced his campaign.

Because I grew up, you know, at the tail end of the Clinton years and you grow up and like, oh, Clinton's a scumbag and it takes integrity to lead and Clinton is gross. Yes, correct. But I watched all of those same people salivate falling on their knees and fronting up front of the serial adulterer disgusting lying racist piece of shit. And I recognized this like immediately. I didn't need the grab him by the pussy comment. I was like, this man is trash. What are you talking about? And as his campaign goes and it gets worse and worse and worse and worse and worse.

And I watch everyone I know, everyone I grew up with, followed a speech, call him King Cyrus. I was like, oh, oh, this was never about loving your neighbor and helping the poor and taking care of the sickness was all about power for you people. And that was the moment for me that I realized this had all all of it had been a farce to just take power. And, you know, I tell people all the time because a lot of people on my page are still Christ followers. And I'm like, listen, you can follow those teachings and understand that the organization,

is using these very good things to one is a guy's for their own immorality, but also just a grab power. But that was the moment for me that all of the lies and all of the contradictions came into really sharp relief.

So what did you do with that? So you see that, right? It comes down the stupid gold elevator, you know, he's calling, you know, an undocumented immigrants rapist and murderers, which is not true.

Take someone to know on Donnie. So how is once you see that, like, what is the conversation with your, is there a, I'm out like a, yeah, you know, there's a sign for episode the 90s, which I'll put it. He like we have a comment. I'll just say they have a contest. Slaps, I'm out like is that how does, how does that conversation go?

“So what happened with me, I, in that moment, like, again, for me, I was like, no, no, thank you. But I had a couple months of really sitting with it. And it's a, it's really sobering to be like, man, everything I grew up believing as a fucking lie.”

All of this was used to manipulate me. All of this was used to help me parrot their talking points be part of their talking points give birth to their talking points. And it wasn't until the summer of 2016. And again, I, I, my, I'm a data person and I live information. So I just, when I saw Christian support him, I don't even deeper. I'm like, I want to know everything. I want to research all these issues. I want to research what he's saying. I want to know what the data is. And I got to a point in the summer where I was like, I can no longer in good conscience in any way, even by perception associate with this movement.

And I also realized I had to tell my dad, which I knew would lead to me being disowned. I knew that that was what was going to happen. I knew that. I knew that. I knew that in advance. My dad was very aligned with the movement. Although he didn't like Trump. So there was that. But very aligned with Christian nationalism. And he was, it was very my way or the highway with him. And he had disowned several of my other siblings for disobeying him or doing things he didn't agree with. So I knew that that was that was coming and he was also he was my best friend. He was my mentor. I was very, very close to my dad.

And I made the decision that I was I needed to have a conversation with him and we had had this conversation on the phone. He had accidentally butt dialed me and he was just really happy that day. Like just very, very joyful and told me he loved me. I was working on my first EP and that he was proud of me and he had never seen someone go after what they want. It was a very unusual conversation for him to kind of shower affection like that.

“And in that conversation, I remember having this pit in my stomach and thinking, I got to tell him like I'm not telling right now. But I got to tell him I have to sit down with him and let the chips fall where they may and he died that night.”

Oh, wait. Like he died six hours after that conversation. Oh my god. Oh my god.

And so I never got a chance to never had a chance to actually talk to him about it. So he passed away July 14th of 2016.

And then a month later my grandmother and a close friend died on the same day. So I was just in this this whirlwind of my world views gone my mentors gone all of this death. And then the the campaign and the is happening at the same time. It was a really overwhelming time. But I never I never actually got to telling. How do you feel about that today? I wish I could have I do wish I could have had that conversation with him. But my dad, one of the things my dad had a very hard line on was he did not tolerate people that cheated on their spouse.

That was a big hard line for my dad and that was the reason he didn't like Trump. He was like see I will say to my father's credit that he held Trump to the same moral standard he held Bill Clinton too.

“So I think I think that it's possible that my dad wouldn't have voted that fall.”

He really hated Hillary too. And I think there's a chance that he would have either voted third party or he would have not voted which would have been a huge act of protest for him. But he could not he could not reconcile a serial adulterer.

And that in part is because my mom left him so he had a very personal personal beef with adultery. And I don't think that he would have he was never behind Trump. He thought he was distasteful and.

But I do wish we could have had that conversation to know for sure. But there was a lot of fallout with people I grew up with old teachers classmates essentially guy got cut off when I became very public about my new view points my siblings. Essentially didn't talk to me for two years. I have a really good relationship with two of them now. But some of them still don't talk to me. But yeah, it was a was a 2016 was a rough year. I don't really know her that well she left when I was six and left all six of us kids with my dad and I saw her once when I was seven once when I was 18 and a couple times in my 20s and it just became one of those situations where I was one of the only kids and really the only kid at least as far as my whole life goes that she didn't really want anything to do with she didn't make an effort to speak to me or reach out to me.

I think there's some of that and I got to a point with her where I understood why she left.

Like if I had been a grown woman living in the environment that we were with this idea that marital rape isn't real and this is your job and you have to submit and you have I would leave to it and I had a really great conversation with her when I was 23 and I said I just need to know no because our home was also very physically abusive it was very very physically abusive and I asked her I said I need to know why you left us all behind you knew how dad was you knew the structure we were growing up in why did you leave us all there and her answer was so honest.

She said I couldn't stay anymore but I knew I couldn't feed you and your dad could. So he was physically abusive to both her and to the care we grew up very much in a home like a lot of corporate punishment my dad was not someone who was a raging drunk who came home and did anything like that but.

But our beatings were severe if we ever did even minor infractions I mean I was beat with a bull whip once my brother was beat with a chair.

For those in hose we would be sometimes I would be bruised from my broad line to the back of my knees and not be able to walk well for a few days. And so it was very and when he remarried my step mom it actually got worse and so it was it was a really it was a really tough environment to go through but the reason I went to boarding school in high school was because. Of the abusive home and for me anywhere but there was better and my brother came the next year and we both went through part of middle school and high school.

In this teeny tiny school in a cornfield because it was safe for them being home he and I my younger brother and I are the only siblings that were raised our whole lives together.

And at one point after my dad remarried my step mom and we moved we were forced to live in a dark basement for two years and we weren't allowed to be upstairs in the house.

We were only allowed to come upstairs if we were leaving or going to school or to clean it for her and we also like she would any any small infraction like you miss a spot scrubbing the floor you miss something in the shower. Everything was a beating so my younger brother Travis and I got out as soon as we could get out. Did you did you do you know why was your was that a like religious thing or was that I assume your father probably was also treated the same way in his household growing up is my course actually my grandfather was vicious.

The corporate punishment side of it again in Christian nationalism their very pro spank your children break their spirit this was during the time of like my dad was a big James dobs and follower.

“You talked about you know you have to break the spirit of your children he called toddler's little tyrants you know instead of little people that are trying to learn what it means to be human.”

So my dad was very much in that so he felt that corporate punishment was like required that it was necessary to raise your children properly. He didn't actually know about what my stepmother was doing until I was 19 and I don't know I still don't know how he found out I just remember because I was in class he sent me an email saying hey I've heard XYZ and he lists all these things he's like is this true and I just wrote him along letter saying yeah and that's that's about like 30% of what happened.

But he also didn't believe that that was a good enough reason to get divorced and I think that was religiously motivated but also he didn't want the embarrassment of a second divorce and so he stayed with her even when he found out. And James dobs and for those of you don't know I think his group was called focus on the family which is of course complete horseshit well it's not how the house. I was not sad when he passed away. So so you still have after all of that you still have siblings that follow those teachings correct.

And you don't really have a relationship with that. Yeah, no. Do you know if they treat their families the same way that they were treated. I'm imagining yes so I have one sister who doesn't have kids.

“But I do know and and I don't think my older brother kind of the exception of the rule he kind of stepped away from everybody which I don't blame him for I think he just wanted to wash his hands of it and just walk away.”

I don't think that he's adhering to any of those principles at all but I at least have one sibling who very much does. So why the thing that I think for us. Well, we call ourselves secularists I don't even understand. Oh, we we joke about that. Yeah, we call it that's fine.

“He then's like whatever like I think what are the hard things for for us and like I grew up Catholic but like not like not in a strict house and my my parent my dad wasn't even religious and my my mom”

kind of had me go and my brother go because my grandmother wanted us to go more than anything else and we're very progressive house we don't believe those things but like it's very hard.

Yeah, like what do you think it is about that world that basically like I mean like you got out but like most people don't.

“So what is the what is the message there as far as like what we're really facing with these like far right Christian assules.”

Well, obviously like the first level is if you grew up in it. There's all that brainwashing I mean you got a lifetime of brainwashing and I was fortunate enough like one I'm white to I was able to go to a different state and go to school on campus.

Which many of them stay homeschooled or they stay in state they they never get disconnected from their community and see a different community.

For women a large part of is they encourage you to get married young and have kids young which makes you financially dependent your dog barefoot and pregnant and then your stunk. And so then you have not only the added you have the baseline. It's all fear motivated right they may be scared of a scapegoat but also it's this deep human very human longing to belong. And and people know that if they leave that movement they lose their church they lose their community they'll lose their family it's like a gay kid coming out in a Christian home.

Knowing that they are going to be thrown in the street.

“Right is is very much that feeling so there's a lot of that that goes on.”

And because so many of them don't have a lot of access to external influences in their personal life right they'll see something on social media now that we have social media or they'll see something in a movie.

But they don't have a personal.

Interaction with it so it's hard for them to take it to to think about it other than a concept because they're not having those interactions and that's the reason that the groups are so highly controlled. Is because once they lose the control of information. This is the reason that Larry Ellison is pursuing the Warner Brothers merger. This is probably seven mountains mandate to control information. And so they they are very much put in these bubbles women are very often trapped right there's no way for them to get out what are they going to do.

How are they going to survive as a single mom. And and also even Christian marriage counseling was founded by a man named Paul Popano who was a white supremacist. Who was a white supremacist. You Genesis who was also an atheist, but after you Jen expel out a favor after World War II when it became clear with the Nazis had done. He switched over into marriage counseling and the only people that were extreme enough to listen to his viewpoints were evangelical pastors.

So he would teach them that white women should never marry outside their race white women should never be on birth control.

White women should never leave their husband even in cases of infidelity or abuse and this is what Christian marriage counseling is founded on it. And you'll see and we even see that play out where a pastor has enough fair and he gets forgiven. It was temptation. He gave in but it will woman a married woman does that. Oh my god, right totally different, but Paul Popano mentored James Thompson. James Thompson worked for him at his marriage counseling services before he started focus on the family.

Oh, that's that's lovely. So there's a lot of ideologies to keep people trapped. And again, and you go back to the to hell ideology. You you as a church create this belief that only I have the answers to what happens to you after you die.

“And if you don't listen to what I say, you're going to turnally burn and hell and I'm going to tell you that as a Christian, you have to be Republican.”

So let me ask this because this is where I think a lot of us on the left are like what the fuck. And it's everything you just said, I've heard, I believe it, right? And you talk about like, you know, if you're bad, you go to hell, if you're good or subservient, you go to heaven. How do they square that with Donald Trump? Like he cheated on all three of his wives lied about it and actually got 34 felonies because he tried to cover it up with some business transactions. He has been a racist his entire life and the 70s he had to settle a lawsuit with the federal government because they used to write the letter C on any person of color that applicants for his buildings.

And we all know what the C stands for. In the 80s he went after Native Americans like in the 80s he ran a full page ad I think the New York Daily News or the post calling for the death penalty of the central park five who were completely innocent. So you have all of this stuff where he is very clearly. The antithesis of what theoretically you're to being taught in these schools. So how do they how do they how do they how do they square that because to me, it just completely blows my mind. I'm going to give you the Christian nationalist answer and that's well, he made all of those decisions while he was a Democrat and he found God and ran as a Republican. So all of those sins are forgiven.

Are you serious? I was asked for forgiveness. That's the. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But we're to Donald Trump asked for forgiveness. He didn't they're making the assumption because he's selling bibles and he's he's speaking enough Christian Bible talk in Christianies and and bringing in like the heritage foundation that they're like see see he's a believer now.

All of his sins are washed away. God uses imperfect vessels just like he used King David.

That's I like, yeah, tone for that.

“I don't know where the recording happened. I know it was leaked during his campaign, but I don't know for sure.”

I don't know for sure. Yeah, so it's kind of there. It's kind of their get out of jail free card or his get out of jail free card, I guess. But it was essentially well, he's been forgiven for that now. So he's a he's a new man. Well, I'm going to do some serious prey in for what he's doing. But he's right. Right, but he's also in office like or on the campaign trail made fun of that man with disabilities. He's made fun of gold star families. He's he called he called John.

He like went after John McCain. He's like, I don't like soldiers who are captured. These were all. Mr. Bones for himself.

“Yeah, the six to four or five departments for the difference between Trump's Vietnam plan and his Iran plan.”

What is it? Get a plan on how to get out of Vietnam. It's funny because it's true. But like I, this is where I just, I struggle because even today, we'd we're talking about how he like went after that Joe Kent guy, because he's only got married way to wait to soon after's white.

Hey, one after Tyler Rico. He's like he's his Jesus has six genders. The fuck does that mean? It's like, what? It's because Tyler Rico said that God's God is non-binary, which is actually scripturally accurate.

But it's really like, at this point, once they once they ingratiate him and accepted him with that first line of reasoning,

it becomes cognitive dissonance at this point. Yeah. And it becomes. Oh, he's he's King Cyrus. He's this pagan king who's going to bring us to Armageddon. And he's going to restore, you know, Christians that he's going to protect us from this fake illusion of Christian persecution. They've been teaching us all since 95. And you know, and so it then it just becomes a complete disconnect.

And so you get a lot of, they just choose cognitive dissonance. They're just going to turn it off. And then you get a lot of cost fallacy where some people who, I don't like that. But I've, I've been tied to this shit for 10 years. Right. No, it's all, it's all the ends justify the means for them because it, like you said earlier, Monte, you know, it's about power. It's about getting and retaining power. And I mean, I've, I've seen people argue, well, I don't agree with, with how he conducts his life. He's made a lot of mistakes.

But him being an office means we made abortion illegal. And so that, you know, that's just a big single thing that they grab onto.

“Monte, I want to go back to something you were talking about earlier, though, as far as the when indoctrination begins, because like Tim was asking about, you know, how, how do people not run away from this?”

And I live in an area where there are a lot of large Mormon families. And we see the same thing. I knew kids when I was 16, 17, 18 through school who, it's not just about are you personally being subjected to something bad. They would also weaponize the families and that in the siblings against any kids who wanted to to leave. And so I knew one guy who, he said, I'm not Mormon anymore. And he had, you know, six siblings, something like that. And his parents said, I think he was 17. And his parents said, if you leave the church, then we will, you will have to be out of our house, and you cannot speak to any of your siblings anymore.

And so not only, and he loved his siblings, not of them did anything wrong. And he was trying to help a lot of them, in fact. And so then it became this, this thing where, like, well, if I stay in it, then maybe I can help them live a slightly better version of this terrible life that I can't stand. And then he's still ended up getting thrown out. He lived on couches and everything for a while. And because it was so painful and because it was so bad, he had no access to any support or resources because the, the compliance is so rigid that nobody can help you once you get thrown out. That's like that's literally part of the rule.

He ended up going back. And I remember one point. He said something like, well, it didn't work for me, but I still think it's a really great religion. And I'm going to raise my kids, more men and everything. And I was like, a lot of faith. So. Oh, and that's, I mean, that's the same thing that my dad did with my birth mother. So when she left and, you know, he tried to get her back. She wasn't having it. They divorce. I mean, he would have my brother and I memorized like front and back pages of scripture versus every week and the first group of pages we got was all about adultery. And it was all these verses on the adulterous, but my dad would not let us speak to my birth mother.

And it was you're on her side, you're on mine. If you speak to her, you are choosing to be in sin and you can't be in my house. And it's, it's that type of, and it's not just being thrown out of the church. It's like being thrown out of your intimate family losing contact with your siblings or your parents or not being able to see the family dog.

And it's very much used as coercion to keep people trapped and often they just, you know, I get messages from people and thankfully most of them have finally moved past that fear point.

If I do that, my family is going to throw me out. I'm worried about what will happen. I got so many messages from kids teens that were in that are in the LGBTQIA community who said, I'm worried that my parents are going to beat her kill me if I tell them the truth. And that is really the reality of how high control and how coercive those systems are. Did you guys see the the CPAC interview with our shop on Pierce Morgan, where he said, they were talking about the girls that were killed in around the school girls.

“And he said, well, they're better off dead than in a burka.”

Yes, absolutely. So exactly that is such a reflection that is such a reflection of their ideology as a whole.

They would rather you be suffering and miserable and in line than anything else. They would rather a woman be in an neglectful abusive marriage than to be divorced and single. They would rather a gay man be married in a lavender marriage and end up committing suicide because of appearances. Then like it is that that for me. I mean, obviously, so is homophobic and horrific, but it was such a testament to what their ideology is is that they don't care who suffers as long as it looks the way they think it should look.

But match slap the head of CPAC has been incredibly accused by at least two staffers male staffers of sexual assault. So it's very interesting that this guy seems like he feels perfectly comfortable going out there and basically saying that these girls are better off dead when he also has some essay issues in his background. But the other thing I want to ask you about and is you mentioning that a lot of these families feel like that they would rather their their LGBTQ plus plus kids either being a lavender manager dead.

You actually grew up near where one of the most infamous murders of a gay person was, which is Matthew Shepherd, who was killed in 1998 by a bunch of kids. They beat him and then they threw him on a barbed wire fence and they left him to die. Yeah, what would your family or what did your family ever talk about that case and all of a sudden maybe two two I don't know if that's in your age range or not, but like what would what would the reaction to your family be to something like that.

I was too young for them to really have a meaningful conversation with me about it.

I knew it had happened like some I remember hearing an adult like say the name and and them not wanting to explain to me what it was. That's my dad about that actually when I got older about the death of Matthew Shepherd and for many people and it was it was split. There was a lot of conservative groups in where I grew up that when this would come up years later it would be he got what he deserved. It's the same way that they treated the AIDS crisis where this is just God's punishment on your lifestyle quotation marks.

But I will say again my dad my dad still opposed his death saying no one should ever be killed for that like I don't agree with it. I wouldn't align but my dad would be the person if I came out as a lesbian he'd throw me out of the house you wouldn't kill me or support somebody killing me. But he'd throw me out of the house and cut off all support until I repented.

“I mean I think we it's hard for people to remember now because this was a while ago and actually some people in the call probably we're not alive in this guy's okay.”

I feel the ages and I feel yeah, but what's going to make me.

Well, so this is a better. He's not in this call. He's really used there was a senator up until I think around 2000 his name was Jesse helps. It's a better piece of shit asshole. Bigger racist guy who actually said that AIDS was God's punishment of some form of it punishment to gay people. My dad's been a book about it. About the AIDS was God's punishment.

Yeah. How how does he explain the story? He's stressed the words on that one. Yeah.

“But like there was I mean millions of straight people have gotten AIDS.”

How how do they've dissonance at the time that he wrote it. So it was he wrote it in the very early 80s. And so it was really it was really before anybody knew how it was transmitted. It was considered a gay man's disease. It was you know what I mean it was it was in that particular era.

Right. Because my dad graduated from high school in the early 70s. And so he wrote that early 80s before there was really any information. And when my dad got older he was like very regretful about that. Okay.

Yeah. Well, he was he was really ashamed of it. Well, there was I mean the Reagan administration. It's well documented that they used the laugh at gay people having this. And they didn't.

Reagan was a piece of shit. Total. Right. I wish we had George Bush and Ronald Reagan back. I'm like, you were in your fucking mind.

Like no, they were awful awful.

And they're the reason that we are here. 100%. You could see the income equality spread. Starting in the 80s because of shit that Ronald Reagan did. Trump wouldn't exist exactly.

Trump wouldn't exist without the misery that spread from Reaganomics. Yeah. Nixon Reagan Trump. Yeah. What a show.

So real. Oh, go. So Johnty.

When do you first remember?

And I might know that. But I might know the answer to this.

“Uh, or should I say, do you remember the indoctrination beginning?”

Or did it, or did you just have your first memory? And it was anywhere already immersed? I remember the, the one thing I remember about that is I remember the hell indoctrination Starting very, very young. I mean, I accepted Christ's quotation marks.

Uh, when I was around five and I remember being so deathly afraid that I had done it wrong, being so deathly afraid that I was going to die and I was going to go to hell. And I would, I would ask Christ into my life every single day. But I remember being talked to about that as young as three. I remember like over like hearing political comments as young as three. And I would say I didn't know what they meant.

But they would they would talk about like the word. I would remember hearing the word senator or things like that. And I mean, my, my dad was friends with Dick Cheney. So I, I met Dick Cheney when I was 10. I had no idea who he fucking was.

You know, I was just like kid playing in the grass. Didn't know. Um, and so I remember I really remember distinctly the hell indoctrination. Everything else was just kind of there.

It was just always there.

I hope your, I hope your dad didn't go like bird hunting with Cheney or anything. He wasn't the guy that got shot face right. No, no, no, he wasn't. My dad was not a hunter. Okay.

I had my dad been able to choose the life he wanted. So my dad was a phenomenal musician. He was incredible singer played guitar. He was the most insane drummer. When I was very, very little.

“I remember him having a double kit in our living room.”

Uh, just in just insane player and he had an opportunity when he was in college. To he was recruited to go play with the wrecking crew in a lot of the session musicians. Wow. And tell everybody who that is because that. So the wrecking crew or the session musicians from LA that I mean for for all of the big bands that came out of the early 70s.

You know, Linda Ronstadt, the Eagles, everybody. The wrecking crew came in and played for them and recorded those albums. So if you like 70s music and you have big albums, the wrecking crew played on those albums. Everything.

Everything. And I mean everything. Everything that was worth noting was played by them. So why didn't he go? God.

Because my grandfather called him up and says good sons that serve God come back and take care of the ranch.

Oh, my dad spent his whole life trying to earn the love of his grandfather that he never got.

Never got it. He never got it in my grandfather's life. My grandfather died the day before September 11th. And he so he gave up all his dreams and went back home. But my dad hated it.

My dad hated being a cowboy. He didn't hunt. He didn't he wanted to make music.

“And he wanted to write and he just gave it all up because that's what God wanted him to do.”

This is this shit that just kills me is because you can see the trauma, right? Like you can see this guy has a dream. So I mean like the wrecking crew of the hell blame that was what I think was the drummer in that group. Like these guys were insane and I you could just see it. So we we don't have a lot of time left.

But I want to talk about how or how do we get as many people out of this as possible. I mean, I know you say you get messages and some of the short people search you out. But like what's the what's the way to break this fever? I'm not to sound like Christopher Walker or something like that. But like how how do we start deep deconstructing it there I'll use your your turn.

So the one of the beautiful things about social media is presenting information and different ideas that everyone has on their phone is a tool. It is a big one and especially like accounts like riches and like I think an economy is cool people that are like very hey here's the facts here's the story. I'm going to sit here and just very calmly tell you this I get a little riled up because I've got preacher energy it's ingrained. Um, this those those even if people don't change their mind right away it plants seeds it took people several it took several instances for me and my life to really start to change.

The other thing is that is connecting with people on a human level. So that comes from people like me sharing my story where it doesn't feel like I'm attacking them but they can see themselves in my story. Right and be like oh I remember I didn't realize that was wrong it also comes from telling these stories and sharing because data doesn't matter in the face of story. Yeah. Narrative matters a lot more than data does.

So anytime that we can share information in the form of a story Adriana Smith is a great example of a woman being brain dead.

So they don't know how to read research they don't know how to use those numbers it becomes too much information right.

Right, but using story whether that's from history or whether that's real life accounts can be very, very powerful to see human cost.

Because many of the people and I know it's really hard to believe and I have to remind myself because sometimes I just want to throw punch by the fuckers.

“But I have to remember that so many of them really truly believe they're doing the right thing.”

Yeah.

And I'm not talking about the leaders like like the fucking peak kicks breath in all those bullshit people they know exactly what they're doing.

But the lay person like the stay at home mom of five kids truly believes that she's aligned herself with the correct things that she truly believes that she's serving God. And it's those stories like real humans that she can see herself in that that changed the tide you know for me and I see a lot of comments on social media where someone comes out of maga or leaves conservativeism and says well this is what happened and you'll see all these comments of oh so something had to happen to you.

“Yeah, because that's how people change for me it was a 12 year old rape victim because until that was in front of me I didn't even know that that happened I didn't believe it did I didn't know.”

And I'm still accountable for my behavior being in the movement and what I parroted and the things I said, but we have to somehow see ourselves in those stories for the data to matter. And I think that we on the side I understand the anger and I see this we see this on threads where people like I voted for Trump three times and I made a mistake and they get. Yeah, and I get it because I understand people being angry I do because fuck that shit you know better right but also I get where they're coming from to a certain degree three times is tough.

“And I guess the question is do we shame that person and send them back or at least not welcome them in or do we say look we're like we're on the on the edge here from from a democracy perspective.”

I don't necessarily I get it and I get mad at those people to I don't think we can afford to shut I think you have to bring it because we don't have enough people that I think there's a balance I think there's a balance there because the first thing that I'll say is and I have a young girl who left maga and is really doing the work and she is like oh my god I can't believe that I was part of this shit. And I told her is like you cannot expect or demand a apologies from people that you victimized right it doesn't matter what your intentions were you did it it's done some people are never going to forgive you and you have to live with that you have to be okay with that and you have to show up and do the work anyway.

I encourage especially white expan jellicles that's where we come in and we go on to those posts and we message those people and say hey I want to talk to you I want to be here for you I know this is really hard because we're the people that understand the movement we're the people that understand the brainwashing. And especially like queer people should not be holding this bucket no people of color should not be holding this bucket absolutely not absolutely not that this is I think this is specifically the work of white folks in particular but especially if you had a religious background.

And it's hard job to come in and encourage those people and say hey you've got some work to do but there's space for you here how can I help you get out and I should clarify like I agree to 100% I don't think it's very easy for me as a white straight male to be like what you know like I can welcome them in I'm not the one being targeted like like the. Trans community people of color all of that so no you're you're 100% right so but I agree with your point two of we are not really in a position to push them back into the full beggars can't be choosers they may not come out a second time yep yeah I that's the approach I've used in the way I think about it to is.

I've witnessed all of these things I had a religious background but you know from a liberal science minded family and and so I witnessed everything second hand third hand.

I'm growing up in the community but straight white men have never been the target and so now and so it's a it's a absolute privilege to be able to say oh yeah no it's all trash and I'm really angry about it and. I'm moving on now and and then just wash your hands of it I so I for me I can't do that I have to say well I would be a lot angrier if I were the one who was personally subjected to like pain like physical actual pain throughout my life or having you know no access to money having no access to housing without a spouse like.

So much privilege so much power that we were just born with because we got lucky.

“I think that's where some of the shows up for me is like but you don't find myself I'll have these much more visual reactions around women's rights and women's subjugation of what I seeing I see happening with reproductive rights because.”

I was very much taught that this was the goal that headship voting was the goal get rid of birth control when my dad realized I was smart and women could be smart. His plan changed he was like okay you are going to get married and have kids but a little bit later we're going to get you into law school this is when I was 10 we're to get you into law school and get you on the Supreme Court so you can overturn row.

So I know pressure dad you know at 10 yeah yeah I had just skipped my second grade and they did a bunch of IQ testing on me and stuff and my dad got that paper in his hand he was like oh new plan.

You're one of them useful women he wanted you to be Amy Coney for it. Yeah oh my god so it's so I get rally but it's it's two riches point it's because I personally was subjected in those communities by this teaching and I know exactly what the fuck they're doing and the goal is to make as many white women as possible pregnant and have no resources and options to live. Yeah well well how I want to end on something hopeful though yeah because give me one thing Monty that you are in doing all this work and all this deconstruction.

What is something that it makes you hopeful for the future I truly there is there is I have I've had moments where I'm like oh my god I need to find a rich European man and get the fuck out of here.

I'll sign up for you now I don't care. He'll sign up for you now because I'm planning to be successful. For me I truly believe like one of the things that this administration and has made the mistake of Christian nationalism as a whole is they got so power drunk that they dropped all the shots they pulled the mask off they played their cards too heavily and too quickly. There's no question now what this movement is with the administration is that the well the master off the hoods are on. And so I have a lot of hope because so many people are looking this and saying whoa even people that are in the movement people that are traditional conservatives are like I didn't know.

And I've seen a lot of videos recently where people are like I hate to admit it but the liberals were right. You're welcome. I think that we are experiencing what happens with a with a system like this a system that is built on greed and consumption without any kind of conservation.

“It's its own tail it devours itself from the inside out your leaders are paranoid they get suspicious and it's consume consume consume and it collapses and I truly believe. I do believe that we are in for a rough period of time.”

But I believe that we finally see America United States for what we've always been we see Christian nationalism for what it's always been we see our systems our constitution for what they have always been which is to preserve the power of land owning white men. And because we see that now I think that this whole thing this consumption is going to bring down our systems and allow us to re establish something so much better. I think that this is the path that leads to the United States having universal healthcare and education.

But it had to get this bad the facade had to continue and the facade had to drop before people were willing to actually take the system on because the system is working exactly how it's intended to. Especially with things like poverty poverty is not a bug it's a feature and so now because everything is going to burn down we get a chance to build something new. Do you think it's just Trump losing power one way or the other is going to be the catalyst as the.

“I think it is going to be the catalyst simply because I don't see anyone in the movement right now that has the charisma star power stickiness that he does Charlie Kirk did.”

And not anymore well we can ask Erica about that. But I don't see and like J.D. Vance doesn't J.D. Vance has the risk of an uncooked potato like he's not going to hold like they don't on fornicator. I don't see anyone in the you know and Steven Miller is an overgrown thumb there's nobody that that has that charisma to hold the movement together it really centers and revolves on Trump even though the brains of the operation is everybody. Heritage foundation so I think when he passes away and when this I think that's really where the movement starts to dissolve it's going to be a lot of crazy making people trying to take over the empire.

But at that point rooms going to have fallen yeah well and we're going to end with this but like actually yesterday or Saturday he gave. Every American permission to celebrate when he dies because every day is Halloween he even yourself he said when Robert Mueller died this weekend.

But all of them all of them and I think that's respectfully in without loop yeah the rusty sport.

“Oh I bet Monty if we told the the 15 year old you that you'd be using those words on a podcast.”

She'd be mortified by fallen into sin.

Yes I have actually.

“Monty thank you very much this is I there's such an important conversation because I think a lot of us on this side of the aisle just are like completely flumics by what we're seeing and it's really helpful to.”

And I am too even making the ship it's still really frustrating because you see the cognitive dissonance for what it is and it's really hard to overcome. But it's also great that you're you know you've made the transformation and you're out there and people are coming to you as somebody to like get guidance and leaving so it's really really important so everybody.

“So everybody go follow Monty I think you're pretty much available everywhere also channels everywhere so Monty made it thank you very much for joining us and we will be back on Thursday to talk about the new show that we're launching this week.”

Which is no lahains is not a spy so no is gonna come on and talk about the show that'll be our third show so everybody have a great few days and we will be back on Thursday. Bye everybody.