1324: Has "Vanilla" Guy Always Been Kinky on the Sly? | Feedback Friday

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Welcome to Feedback Friday. I'm your host, Jordan Harbinger. As always, I'm here with

Feedback Friday producer, my woody Jason Waterfalls, my kind of sort of Cacao Gabriel

“Mizrahi. Oh, Gabee Cusware is, that's what they call me. Amazing waterfall pick on the”

gram, my guys like that's a legit and that waterfall look at it. You know, the worst the roads are the better the waterfalls. That is one of many things I have learned from Baia. Yeah, it almost like there's a deeper metaphor in there, something somewhere. Oh, really? Maybe you can explain it to me one day. No, you, you got to figure out some things on your own Gabe. I'm trying to be a big one. There's so much to learn. I'm learning a lot. I now have that TLC song stuck in my head like,

"Don't go chasing one of those waterfalls." We stick to the rivers and the lakes and the lakes and the lakes and the lakes and the lakes and the lakes and the lakes and the lakes and the lakes and the lakes and the lakes. And then it was like somehow about AIDS? I don't know. Oh, yeah. Yeah. First album I ever bought by the way, Crazy Sexy. What? 10 out of 10. Man, banger of it out, that was so good. Well, I'm in Rio, Disneyland, so that's basically what I'm doing for a week sticking to the rivers I'm used to, not getting AIDS.

Just to be just to be. Well, so far. We'll see. I'm wearing shoes again, so that should help. Yeah, good, but yeah. I do understand this place more. This place is like, if Tel Aviv, LA, and Mexico City,

“how to baby, that's how I describe it. Wow. So it's full of hipster Jewish Latinos buying 18”

dollars from movies at heroin? No, no, I think you're thinking of Santa Monica. Yeah, that's right. That's sort of the wheelchair west of the 405. My bad. My transition dude. I've gone from contemplating the stars every night to renting Uber e-bikes to get to hot yoga and go pick a banna, so very well. Vibeshift. Blime shift, truly. You know what else is a vibe shift? Our transitions because on the Jordan Harbinger show, we decode the stories. He could skills of the world's most fascinating people.

And we turn there wisdom and practical advice that you can use to impact your own life

and those around you. And our mission is to help you become a better informed, more critical

thinker. During the week we have long-form conversations with the variety of amazing folks, former Jihadis, drug traffickers, CEOs, rocket scientists, astronauts. We had a busy week this week. I've no, I don't think I've ever released this many episodes in one week. Well, through the magic of poor planning, we had five episodes Monday we had David Royce. He started multiple companies. He had huge exits, talked sales and sales psychology. I thought there was quite an interesting

if not a little bit offbeat for this show anyway episode. We also had Dr. Cortley calmly on walking and how you're doing it wrong, which is a little bit alarming for those of us out there that are bipeds. We also had my friend Todd Rose on collective illusions. This is some fascinating social psychology. And we had a skeptical Sunday on the moon. On Fridays, though, we share

stories, take listener letters, offer advice, play obnoxious sound bites, and never stick to

the rivers and the lakes that we're used to. Feedback Friday always takes us to new bodies of water. Speaking of which, you just got back from your Disney crews, didn't you? Oh, god. Hey, show, fam. It's producer Jayce here. If you want to take a skiff across the choppy waters of Jordan and Gabe's latest ridiculous adventure stories, you can jump to 20 minutes and 20 seconds. Enjoy the show. Yeah, the Disney crews from hell, as we now call it in

our house. Oh, yeah. Not all bad, but a real mixed bag. And I know this is going to be like boo who first world problems. But I have notes on the premium Disney crews I took. Okay, but I'm just going to go ahead and guess that you what new strains of plague did you acquire at sea this time? Exactly. So much happened. So we booked a four night cruise. And we bought the, I wanted to check if there was a last minute upgrade and chat GPT and Google are like, they don't do this and

everyone's like Disney doesn't do that. But we got it through Costco. Hold my beer. Hold my beer. Costco, they buy a block of room. So it's like Cole Costco and see if there's any last minute rooms with them like yeah, we have these crazy. That's where I go when I want premium experiences.

“Here's the thing though. That's the thing. Like, I thought Costco crews, what what's happening?”

They're like, yeah, we bought a block of rooms and we have these two like ridiculously over-priced rooms that surprise nobody paid $15,000 for for the 40 crews. And I was like, if you give it to me for 1800 bucks, I mean, I'd basically just lowball them and they were like, you got it. Because that's like, you have to buy them in bulk. Like, did you have to buy a unit of rooms? No, I just bought the one. And they were like, you can choose whichever one

you want. I was like, wow, this is great. So we ended up with this room that had like fancy boarding early boarding, whatever, and like room services is all included and whatever. Anyway, you get on and we get a score to enjoy our first meal on the ship. This place called Tritons, because they're all named after Disney. Is it folks? 180 small size of frosted flakes?

steak and your mushroom thing. And I was like, this is delicious. By the way, this experiences

“you need to our family. I want to say it's not Disney's customer service was amazing. There was”

a lot of amazing things on the boat. But I immediately got food poisoning after that first meal.

Like, not just like, oh, that was a little rough. I've got some stomach pressure no, like, healed over stomach pain, bowling, ball in your gut, puked eight times, explosive everything. And I didn't eat for two days. Oh, no. I couldn't look at food. And it wasn't just me, Jen's like, you're being a drama queen. You're going to stick me with the kids in the first day of the cruise so you can lay around in bed. And then like three hours later, she comes back

into the room just to see me just like projectile, you know what, everywhere. Like, then she's like, move. I got, I'm up. And I was like, oh, you got sick too, because I made her try it. And it's like, this is so good. You got to have some. Oh, how the toilets have turned. Yes, indeed indeed. So we were like, thank God, we upgraded and got two bathrooms in this room. And then so like, basically, I just use the good toilets with your family. Oh, my God. So I just like puked out

everything that I could. And I was like, I think I'm done. So I like took a shower and took the kids out of the room so that Jen could just like, you know, have the worst night of her life and more thing. And like skip dinner, skip the show, go to bed, woke up in the morning. I felt like somewhat human. She did not. I took the kids to the kids club. They were there for like a couple of hours. And they're like, well, this sucks. We want to leave. And I was like, great. The

whole, the thing that everyone sold us on, which is that your kids are never going to want to

leave this kids club. And you know, it's a long time with your adult friends and your wife, whatever, that just wasn't happening. They're like, this sucks. We want to color in the wrong of the past. We don't like the people at the kids club. Like they, they kept trying to make them do activities. And they were like, we just want to play with the blocks or whatever. And they're like, no, we're going to make slime. We're going to color it or not, whatever it was. And they were just like,

we don't want to like cut out paper dolls. It's one of like play dodgeball or whatever they were doing. I don't know. So like, all the kids were like, we want to go swimming. And I was like, our fans are taking them to the pool. Anyway, it was just a nightmare because Jen got so much

“sicker than me, even though she only had like a couple of bites. And I think it's because, well,”

who knows why. But the cruise is, by the way, just in general, it's the Olympics of wasting food. Like they will bring you extra everything if you're like, oh, this was pretty good. They're like, oh, how do you like the shrimp-linguini? And I'm like, a huge portion, but it's pretty good. And they're like, all right. I'm going to bring another round for everyone. And it's like, what are you doing? Hard to watch sometimes. Oh, it's tough, man. I'm like, in the morning, I was like, hey,

my stomach subset. Can you bring me a bowl of oatmeal and a little bit of sugar and some berries? They brought me like this massive fruit thing and they brought me like an entire whole ass container of sugar. Like more than I would use in a month in any amount of other meals. Is that because you bought it from Costco or is it? Yeah, they're like these Costco people. They want everything in bulk. So yeah, I remember Jen was like, oh, I like raisins in my oatmeal.

And they brought a container of like a no doubt, a 10 ounce container of raisins. That was bigger than the bowl of oatmeal. Some guy comes in dragging a grape tree. Yeah, they do grow in vines. But yeah, it was just like unbelievable that I just say grapes. You did say grape tree, not a thing by the way. That's true. That they do grow in vines. That's right.

“This is an educational podcast and you need to step your game out. We need a skeptical Sunday on”

grapes is what I need to do. I heard that come out of my mouth and I was like, I don't know why I can't picture a grape tree. Well, it's so strange. I have a contemplated word grapes come from and then then now I understand. Let's move on. That's where they get their grape can apps off of grape trees. The workers were also really interesting. This is a mix of people. Right. So you get these kind of career workers that are all, I don't know, probably my age 40 something years old and they're from

like Yugoslavia in Indonesia, the Philippines. The younger folks are from South Africa, Australia, the UK, New Zealand. So there's these two tiers of people. Like there's the people at the kids club and the people selling jewelry and the people who are doing excursions that are all really young and then you get these older folks that are in the probably the more money making positions like food,

service and stuff. And I look this up. Their hours are absolutely insane. First of all, they work

seven days a week, most of the time. They also work like 16 hours a day. These are probably good jobs because you make like 50 grand a year at the high end. And if you're from, I don't know, like a not a big place. And like this is probably pretty good for Indonesia, the Philippines, right? But you are, it's got to just be kind of miserable. And I'm going to go ahead and guess their state room is not as nice as the one that I had, right? And it doesn't have like floor to

ceiling windows in it. They're probably a pact in there. So I just found talking to them was quite interesting. It's a little tough though, right? Because it's a Disney cruise. You're like, hey, what are your hours like? And they're like, I love working here. And you're like, yeah, but whatever you work a lot. And they're like, oh, but it doesn't feel like work. The baby de Bobbi Boo and you're like, okay, man, I'm out of here. I'll Google it because they like can't say anything. You're facing

your arthritis, tell a different story, my friend. Exactly. They're all these different South Africans,

it was like, oh, yeah, there's like these Africaners and the people who are English and they totally

“have different subculture and language and everything. And so that was like, wait, you're from South”

Africa, but Brandon's also from South Africa. And he said, it's completely different. So I was able to talk to some of those folks. One thing that I thought was interesting is that in the South Africans were like, tell you love the South Africans or also nice except for Elon Musk. And everyone looked at her like, you're not allowed to say stuff like that on the boat like just daggers. That makes me happy because it reminds me of when we were North Korea and everywhere you went, people told

the party line and they had their little scripts and they had their stories about how it is and how this is such a very country and very happy. And then every once in a while, we would just crack that you could get past the facade and they would say one short honest thing and you'd be like, now we're talking. I live for those moments. My favorite one is and I haven't thought about this in a while, but I think you were not on this trip. This was when I did without you. And we were at the DMZ,

they have a little museum where they have the document that they signed during the the armistice agreement or whatever and they have flags and on the table next to the signed document they had the North Korean flag. And then they had not the U.S. flag, but some other flag we use for diplomatic contexts.

“Oh, I can't remember. I think the U.N. and flags are there. It's probably a U.N. flag.”

And the story they told us, this like five star general who gives the tours is like the Americans wouldn't use their own flag because they were so embarrassed about losing the war. And I said, wait, really? And she looked at me. There was a beat. And then she just rolled her eyes openly with her back turn to the general. And I was like, that is the correct response. It's those little moments. Sometimes it's not even in words, but you just get, you know,

you get past the propaganda. Yeah, there's a couple of things. One of our friends there, I won't at her because I don't want to get anybody in actual trouble. But there was one of the guides was kind of a, she's quite privileged. I think her father was like a high ranking military or government official. And she was in the women's room with one of the British guides from the tour company that we used our tour partner. So that the British guy told me this, they were in

there. And they were drinking a little bit that day. And she was like, yeah, if you ever come to

“the UK, it would be so great. And this North Korean girl goes, we just want to be normal. We're so”

sick of all this Kim Jong-il, this Kim Jong-il that. And then she like caught herself and was like,

some powder of my nose and go back out there and pretend this conversation never happened. Correct.

Yeah. I know exactly whom you're talking about, too. And she was really special when it was hard. It makes me sad. Yeah, especially if they've traveled, they know what semi-normal is. Like, they go to China and they go, wait a minute, there's not a food shortage globally. What are you talking about? I used to think about that, too. Like, it was so fun to get to know some of the North Koreans in Pyongyang or in the tourism department. I was like, oh, if I lived here, this would definitely

be the job I want. But then I was like, in a way, it's worse because you're rubbing up against people from other countries and you know that what the government is selling is not true. So in a way, it's harder. It's sadder. And then they say, goodbye, and we never get to talk to them again unless we go there. Right. Which we can't. Well, the North Korean thing, that's a whole separate, that's a whole separate show. Let's go back to the Costco Korea show. I'll lighten it up. So since

they were so many different foreign accents on the boat, I had, there's this place called the Bibbidi Babidi boutique, by the way, in the on the ship. And it's for little kids to like go dress up as a princess or a pirate. So we bought Juniper, this princess make everything, and she's a getting make up. Oh, the photos of her were both of them were so cute. Incredibly incredibly cute. And so I had asked this guy from India where the Bibbidi Babidi boutique was and sorry, this is going to

sound a little cringe. But he was like, oh, the Bibbidi Babidi boutique, my laugh so hard. And he was laughing too because he had trouble saying it. And then I went around the boat asking every staff member where the Bibbidi Babidi boutique was so that they would repeat it in their accent. And it was so funny. And I'm not making fun of them. It was actually just the cutest thing to hear people be like, oh, the Bibbidi ball, but it'd be take. It's on the third floor. Not just like that. I like that one too.

Oh, it was a cool. They must have known that one. They named that store. It was so funny.

And again, the service was amazing. Everybody was super kind. And seeing one of the most interesting

parts of this was seeing adults out of their normal elements. So when you're out alone in the world as an adult, you're just kind of like whoever you are. But when you're with your kids, usually I would say, especially on vacation, the best version of that person, right? Because you want to set a good example for your kids. So there was this guy I bumped into and I had to get around him in a line. He was in a line that was like blocking the way I needed to go. And I was like,

oh, excuse me, I didn't mean to bump into you because I was looking at my daughter. And I turn around at this guy with a giant Nazi tattoo on his chest. It's like, oh, you're good. Man, it's all good, bro. And I was like, whoa, you're wearing a huge Nazi tattoo across your entire chest. And I looked at him. He's like, shaved head, you know, like beard. And I was like, this dude is a, this is a neo Nazi, or at least an ex neo Nazi. That is very confusing. Yeah. American history, X at C. 100%.

He had like American flags when shorts, which sounds like it contradicts the whole Nazi thing. But

are Nazis save your emails. But because a lot of this sort of like super patriot, white national as type people, they consider themselves like, we're the real Americans, we're the, you know,

we're the Christian ones that came here first. And it's our land like that's a belief system that

I've explored here on the show before, if you're familiar. So I just thought that was so interesting because I was like, what is this guy thinking when he sees me walking past with my clearly mixed children? What is this guy thinking when he's got the, I think it's called the Reichs Adler on like the Nazi iron eagle that's perched all across his chest? And I was like, does anybody say any thing to this guy like half the cruise is Asian people and like latinos? I mean, it's a very mixed

crowd on a Disney cruise. And then in that guy turns around and saves you the last buttermilk pancake. Yeah, he was like he was getting ice cream with his kids and it was just such a weird

“juxtaposition because you're like, oh, you should not be allowed to enjoy ice cream without that.”

I'm sorry. I like to think he got that when he was younger, he doesn't have the money to remove it. He grew chest hair over it and he's got a bunch of other tattoos and he's like, yeah, I was an idiot, what can you do? I told myself if I were with my kids and I saw that guy again, I would be like, dude, I gotta ask you. What's up with the tattoo? I'm so curious. Because he didn't seem scary. He seemed like a very friendly guy. That was so bizarre to me.

Let me guess, not in the appaltant guy. I did see him later, still with my kids. And he was eating chocolate ice cream and I was like, there's chocolate, you're good joke in here that I will not absolutely remember my mind when you have it with that tattoo. You've got a pile on the vanilla. I was like, huh, chocolate, huh, pal? I knew it. Interesting choice.

There's a funny meme on Twitter that says never ask a white supremacist to show you the picture of his

wife because it's always like an Indian lady or a legitimate. Oh my god, that's so intense. Well, well, I'm glad the crew has brought out the best on these people. That's all I can say. Anyway, everyone was friendly, not a single dickhead, even the guy with the Nazi tattoo. A lot of Disney adults, by the way. So this was the whole thing where I was like these got to be the weirdest people ever. They're first of all, they're super nice because they're

basically grown up kids and they're all friendly and they're in their happy place, right? Because they're in a Disney cruise and they're like trading pins with my son. No judgment, but yes, a little judgment maybe, but that's a weirder to me than the Nazi tattoo. I look at it this way. I'm 46. My wife is 40. We would not go on a Disney cruise without little kids. But there were a lot of people our age that had no kids or even younger that had no kids with them.

Look, maybe I just saw them without their kids, but I'm pretty sure these were the same

people like I never saw them with their kids and they also had like Disney tattoos and stuff like that.

And I thought, I don't know if these are Disney adults, like they're buying jerseys in their size. Goofy jerseys in their size of the store. You got a mini mouse, tramp stamp, you're growing on this cruise. I don't know, man.

“It's not the cruise that bothers me. It's the trading pins. You have to draw a line somewhere”

for me. It's trading small objects. It's a grown adult, but maybe I don't understand magic of Disney. There was a 70 plus year old man, maybe even 80 plus, who had an eye patch, which is funny because it was a pirate theme day and I kept going, like, "Oh, look, a real pirate need to go ER!" But he definitely was just missing an eye. Oh, yeah, you needed it. Yeah. And he had a Mickey Mouse eye patch, by the way. It was definitely four of the trip.

And he was pin trading and I was like, "Oh, let's go trade pins at this older guy. It'll be so nice and I brought my son and two of the girl, my friend's kids were there with us." And he was like, "No, this pin's more value like this girl's like, I'll trade you this one for this and he's like, "No, no, no, this is in a class above. I'm not going to trade you this." And he was like, hard-balling these little kids during pin trading. And I was like, "Oh, he's not like,

"Oh, sure, whatever makes you happy." He was like, "No, this is good pin, you're sucks." That's the greatest when he saw I've seen it a long time. This is too funny to me. Yeah, I'm going to wrap this in a sec, but there's a gifting culture where people, it's called Pixie Dust, where like, you can leave a bag or people make magnet hooks and stuff and they stick them to their cruise door. Jen made a bunch of necklaces to give away. And it's like,

take a necklace and people would leave little rubber ducks or little necklace jewelry, things, keychains, stickers in the little mail bag. And the kids were stoked because they'd wake up every morning and they'd be like new little toys in their mailbox. And it was just a really fun thing. We would go in the elevator and this little girl had a sword, but she was a princess. And I said, "Oh, a princess with a sword." And she goes, "Actually, does your son want this? I don't

need it. I'm a princess." And she just gave him this really cool sword. And the whole cruise was like that. It was just a lot of sharing and fun and older kids being really nice to younger kids. I just thought it was such a good environment for that. And that's cute. I did see a show fan, or I should say a show fan spotted me on the boat. Oh, that's awesome. There wasn't a couple of them, actually. I only got the name of one shout out

to Carlos who spotted me on the boat. We were just walking in a crowd of, I don't know,

“a 200 people to get to something. I don't remember now. He's like Jordan Harbinger. And I was like,”

"Oh, yeah, hey, man." And we talked for a second. He's like, "I'll let you get back to it because the crowd is pushing us in different directions." Basically, it was just a funny place to get spotted. Because of course, I'm like a mess, right? Food poisoning, unshaving with kids. Probably have

Thanks for listening to the show. Actually, totally on brand now that I think about it.

I was going to say, it sounds like you're always running to fans when you're either on your

way to the bathroom or coming back for the bathroom. That's true. And I was both of those things for the majority of the crews. That sounds like it started off real rocky, but actually turned around

“in the best way. That's actually very sweet. And sounds like a pretty solid vacation.”

Yeah. It's just as important to find out what kind of vacations you don't enjoy as it is to find out the kind of vacations that you do. So it wasn't a waste at all. And the kids said they had fun, even though the majority of that was coloring in the room and going down a water sign. So whatever. All right, Gabe, what is the first thing out of the mill bag? Hi, Jordan and Gabe. I'm in a long-term marriage. We've been together for 17 years,

married for 13, this coming fall, and have three young kids. And I feel like my understanding of my husband and my relationship has been unraveling piece by piece over the last year. For our entire relationship, he presented himself as very vanilla. You don't say, I completely forgot about that, did not see the vanilla coming. Yeah, you did not see that coming. Did not see the vanilla

coming. If I ever asked about his sexual preferences or kinks, his answer was always some version

of, I'm just vanilla babe. And he told me he only had eyes for me. He also consistently downplayed his porn use, saying it was minimal or basically non-existent. And only came up occasionally. Ooh, here we go. Something tells me this dude is about his vanilla's rocky road.

“As that ice cream that that other guy probably avoids like the plate. Are you getting that vibe?”

I am. This guy is one of those 80 percent cacao vanilla's. You only only he only find those in Belgium. I'm just vanilla babe, you know, the kind of vanilla that keeps you up with heart palpitations still for in the morning. But that kind of an all. Yeah, I can't wait to hear what this guy's porn absurd history was. Let's go. I've never had an issue with porn use. I even worked at a porn store while putting myself through grad school. But that's changed over the past year.

After his mom passed away, I started uncovering things that made me question his honesty and our entire relationship. Since then, I've repeatedly discovered ongoing porn use,

specific kinks and interests he never disclosed, and behaviors that directly contradict what

he's told me about himself. This has included using porn frequently in situations that feel especially inappropriate to me, like I work. And even while he was solely responsible for caring for our infant, which has made this feel less like a private habit, and more like something that's crossing serious boundaries. Some of what I found has also crossed into spaces in our home and family life in ways that feel deeply inappropriate and unsettling to me. Wait, what does that

mean exactly like literal spaces or figurative life? Either she means he's rubbing one out on the couch in the living room or something like that while the baby sleeping in the other room or yeah, she means he's like trying to bring it into their relationship in some way. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's probably the former one, but I hear her. He's not discreetly partaking the bathroom before bed or something. He's being a way too lucy goosey about it.

Bold words coming from the guy who partook in the bathroom. What was it? Is it in laws heard the video on the Bluetooth speaker and the living? No, you're thinking of be being in the car in a parking lot of Kaiser for a minute. No, no, no. Oh, the video that my friends sent me so far. Oh my god, that was so long.

“I'm friend that was. Yeah, I will never live this down. Why did you bring that up?”

Because, you know, it's our love language, Papa, and I love you. Okay. All right. And I just have to remind everybody that you did that straight out of a judge, apatown movie. That moment I go to take a leak. My friend tells me to watch some dumb adult video. This is years ago. Okay. I forget my phones connected to Bluetooth. I have to walk back in because I can't hear it's like crank the volume. Right? I walk back in wondering

if they know what they heard and figured it out. Oh, it's so ridiculous. I cannot write a better scene myself. One of my favorite stories of yours. Glad you enjoyed. Let's get back to her nightmare, shall we? Let's give it to him. First of what I found directly conflicts with what he said he's attracted to, which makes me question whether I was ever given an honest picture of his sexual identity at all. I can see why that's the hardest part. Yeah, that in the cleaning bill

for the upholstery, but I hear that me, yeah, $800 pre-paid cleaning warranty from lazy boy. There have also been moments that make the contradictions even harder for me to process. At one point, after listening to an episode of the Jordan Harmenter show about OZEMPIC, he encouraged me to listen to it too because he wanted me to consider taking it due to his concerns about my weight and lifespan. Even though I'm relatively healthy and have always been a plus-sized

woman. At the time, I tried to take that at face value and even attributed it to his grief after his mom passed. But in the context of everything I've since discovered, including the types of women he's consistently looking up, consuming, and drawn to, it feels deeply hurtful, confusing, and contradictory, and makes me question what is actually true about his attraction and intentions. Wow, yeah, that's a tough message to take in. So I'm assuming he's looking at like super thin

women or something, and then he's going to like, like, hey, if you heard of a GLP1, those MPX,

that's tricky to put it mildly. I've tried to make sense of this, and part of me

wonders if this is tied to shame around his actual preferences, that what he presents and what he's drawn to privately don't match, and I've been given the more socially acceptable version. Shame or fear, yes, socially acceptable, maybe. I mean, you haven't told us specifically what he's into, but maybe this is more about what he thinks you would find acceptable game. I'm not getting the idea that he's watching dudes or anything. I feel like it would be more clear cut that he's

oh my god, my husband's gay, right? That's correct. Okay. Yeah, so I'm just guessing it's, I don't know, women that are built differently. But even if that's true, it still leaves me dealing with the dishonest and confusion that come from not being told the truth for 17 years. What's been most damaging isn't just what I found. It's the pattern around it. Every time I discover something and

“try to talk with him over this past year, I've met with defensiveness, denial. I don't remember”

or a minimized version of the truth. When he does admit to something, it's usually only after I have evidence, and I'm told that's everything or there's nothing else. Then later, I find more. Oh, yeah, that's so this dishonesty that withholding and the obfuscation, whatever you want to call it, that sort of a problem on top of the problem and might actually be the real problem. This has happened enough times that it feels like I'm being drip fed the truth over

time instead of given honesty from the start. Yep, yield, trickle, true thing, trickle, true thing.

I've never heard that one. Interesting. Yeah. I've tried addressing this in multiple ways,

calmly, directly, and emotionally, but the pattern doesn't change. Yeah, if that's true, assuming you've made it genuinely safe for him to be open with you, then at a certain point, this does become about him. When I try to talk about it, the focus shifts to how I'm bringing it up. My tone, my reaction, my phrasing instead of the fact that I keep uncovering things I was never told. So either she's not making it totally safe to open up, which is possible given how

sensitive this topic is or he's kind of like throwing up smoke screens and pointing the finger at her. Yeah, exactly. I truly cannot tell. I would love to talk to this guy. I leave these conversations feeling more hurt, confused, and dismissed, and like I need a full case file of evidence just to be taken seriously. At the same time, sex feels like a priority for him in a way that doesn't match the emotional reality of our relationship. What an interesting way to say, I don't want to have sex with

you right now, man. Yeah, I was just kind of thinking the same thing. What a way to turn someone out, "Hey, girl, you want to get it in?" Oh, that does not match the emotional reality of our relationship right now. I mean, I get what she means, but yeah. I don't feel safe, respected, or fully appreciated. Yeah, there's still an expectation for physical intimacy, even though no real relationship repair has happened for the level of betrayal that I feel. Yeah, in all seriousness, I totally understand

what you're saying, and that's got to be a strange feeling, being intimate with this spouse when there's all this unresolved stuff between you that you're not making real progress on. On the other hand, he's clearly still wants to have sex with her. That's interesting. That matters, too. But she feels betrayed by this, but he's just like, "I enjoy this stuff privately. This is mine."

“Yeah, it's an interesting question. What exactly hurts about this and who's creating that hurt?”

Knowing what I know now and how long it's been hidden makes me feel like I don't even know who I married. She said that three or four times now, so this is a really big thing. Yeah, I'm struggling to understand where the line is between private behavior and deception that undermines a marriage. Again, such an interesting question, are married people allowed privacy in this department or does that privacy only end up chipping away at intimacy? At what point does repeatedly hiding parts of

your sexual life, including porn use and undisclosed kinks cross from privacy into a breach of trust in a monochemist marriage? Can trust realistically be rebuilt when the truth only comes out in bits and pieces and only after being discovered? After being busted, yeah. And how do I move forward

in a long-term marriage with young children when I feel like I was never given a fully honest

picture of who my husband is? And I still don't know if I have it now. Signed all up in my feelings. Now that I know what? And where? My husband is streaming. Wow, big questions, good questions. This is intense, man. So I'm obviously very sorry that you find yourself in this situation. I can hear how much it hurts. I can totally understand why this is unsettling. To feel like the person you've been with for 17 years, is that what it was? Yeah. Together for 17, but married for

13. To feel like they're actually this whole other person, or maybe to be more accurate and more fair to him, that there's this whole side to him and what he likes that you didn't know about. And that side is different from yours, different from what you offer him in some ways. Uncettling and hurtful for sure, probably not intentionally, but painful for you. But then when you layer on top of it, the issues of body image, potential porn addiction, dishonesty, or incomplete

“honesty, rocky communication, questionable boundaries, I think I can understand why it's doing”

such a number on you. And I'm sorry about that. That said, I want to make a little room for how tricky this might be for your husband, just in the interest of the total fairness here,

to say, he's allowed to be into whatever he's into, as long as he's not harming himself or anyone else, of course, and for a lot of people consuming porn is like kind of their way of enjoying those things. And yeah, the topic of porn is complicated, but generally speaking, I kind of think people are allowed to consume whatever they want. Again, as long as they're not engaging in any harm, and there's a philosophical argument as to whether people who make that are being harmed

always by you consuming it, but I'm not addressing that right now. The other thing I want to

acknowledge is, yes, it's possible that your husband is dealing with some shame about his preferences. And if so, I actually feel for him there to a certain extent as well, shame is generally very hard to work through, especially in this department. It's also his shame to deal with. I also think like I said that he sees how sensitive this is for you, and he probably doesn't want to hurt you, so maybe shame is only half the equation. At the same time, man, Gabriel, I don't know, he still wants to have

sex with her, and he's watching porn to like scratch an inch or curiosity about something else, and it doesn't mean like, oh, I don't love my wife anymore because I'm watching, I don't know, 20 something year old thinner women have sex. It's not, think about it like this. Maybe the reason that this bothers her so much, and we don't have information here, but let's assume he's just watching younger thinner women have sex or something like that on screen. That's a bad example of what I'm

about to say because it's it maybe hits on insecurities, but like imagine he's watching, I don't know, tentacle porn. You'd probably go, well, that's kind of silly. Do you want to have sex with an octopus,

and the answer is no, and it's just like, oh, that's a weird thing you're watching. Yeah,

it was just kind of curious what it looked like, and it's almost like a joke, but the fact that he's watching something that's specifically, it's hitting certain switches in her event is making it way worse. I don't know. If you're watching cartoon porn, it would be like, you watch his cartoon porn. What a weirdo. Not, oh my god, what does this mean about me? But the fact is that it is closer to them in their marriage, so it does her. Yeah, which switches doesn't hit in her is

exactly the question of the best of very good point. It's possible that at least some of his dishonesty can be attributed to his desire to protect you or spare you from being hurt. I don't think

“he's going about that in a great way, that's certainly not the best way, but if he's a decent”

person and he loves you, which I hope he is, I hope he does. Then some of this might be coming from a

quote unquote good place in him. I think there's a decent chance that if we could ask him, he'd be like,

I'm into this kind of stuff. My wife is different in certain ways. I care about her. I don't want to hurt her. I see how hard this is for her, so I just keep it to myself, and honestly, I think I'm allowed to keep it to myself. Call me crazy. I just, I don't think that makes him a monster. It's a very fair point, and I appreciate that you're making some room for him and all of this, but all of that is having some apparently painful effects, and it is putting some distance between them,

and I'm just trying to figure out exactly why. So let's talk about that. One layer of this that does seem problematic to me is the way he's engaging with the porn, okay? A lot of what she described, it does sound compulsive. Almost like he is an in total control of it, or at least is not being very thoughtful about it, which is unfortunately very common. Pornetictions are weird term, but like Pornetictions, so widespread. It's kind of insane. So even if we allow that he can watch this stuff privately,

and it's all fair, it's also true that he needs to be mature and respectful and disciplined, and appropriately boundaryating all those things, especially with a kid in the house. I know you were kind of like, is Pornetiction a real thing, but I also feel like the moment you're using Porn frequently at work, which we don't know if he works from home, but even if he does. But we don't know. People do this in the office at the bathroom at the office, or if he's just,

“I don't know, or like, while rocking the baby to sleep, I think you might have a problem.”

Like, hey, man, I know you're in the middle of something, but I feel like, can I get that latte? I'm a kind of in a hurry. Yeah, look at your pistachio latte after I'm done with the tentacle porn, just give me five minutes. Yeah, exactly. Hold on, I just have to adjust something. Yeah, hard agree. Oh, unfortunately it turned off raise there. She'll be agree. Yeah, I understand. I got you. Talk that agree in the waistband precisely. So even if the porn use

weren't bringing up these challenges for you, I'd still say this is something your husband needs to address. This is not coming from a moral, finger waggy kind of place. I trust that's obvious. I hope it is. This is coming from a, it sounds like you have a potentially unhealthy relationship with this stuff. Bro, and if you can't get through a workday or hang with the baby without rubbing one out to alien porn, then you might be flirting with something like an

addiction, and it's possible that this stuff is hijacked your mind, and you need some help or at least to go on at little detox. That's the place I'm coming from. And it's okay to need help. I don't think it's controversial to say that pornography is the potential to be quite harmful. We've done several episodes about this over the years, but it's not okay to not address this stuff and start using it responsibly when it starts to take over your life in this way.

I agree. So let's talk about this honesty intimacy tension in general. Let's, I truly do not know where to land on that. Yeah, like you, I'm kind of of two minds there on one hand.

“I think every person deserves a certain degree of privacy in this domain and in other domains as”

well in order to be safe, to be free, to be an individual. I agree with that in principle. Yeah.

the essential separateness that allows for togetherness. Whereas a total loss of privacy or

separateness might actually start to become, I don't know, or has the potential to become something like an measurement or controller or something like that. Good point. Kind of like how boundaries are what allow for true closeness. We've talked about that on the other hand. Yeah. We cannot deny that his hiding stuff like this has hurt his wife quite deeply and it has put emotional distance

“between them. So then I wonder, can you really be private about this stuff and still be close?”

It's a weird paradox. Both feel true. It's like privacy is legitimate. It's kind of sacred and it can come in a cost. But does it come at a cost because it's inherently wrong to hide any part of yourself from a spouse for long? Because like the moment you're hanging on to something you're already kind of pulling away or does it come at a cost when the other person expects to have access to all of those parts of you when they might not. A good question. Like

is he automatically hurting her by hiding his preferences in habits or is he hurting her because

her need to know about this stuff is almost creating the problem. Made further complicated by the fact that even if he were being totally open with her about all of this, she would probably still be hurt by some of these preferences. Another good point. Because yeah, she couldn't blame him for lying or whatever, but she might still feel like she isn't giving him something important that he wants. So there's an interesting opportunity for her to really take stock of the

source of her sources of her hurt and where he needs to take responsibility for the way that he's communicating with her. And you know, she might also need to take responsibility for taking a little bit better care of herself because she's kind of blaming him for all of her feelings. I can imagine that it's very tempting for her to say my husband has been hiding this porn addiction or of something like it. He's not being straight up with me about the stuff that he likes and when

he does tell me he doesn't tell me the full story and what he does tell me suggests that it's very different from what I can offer him in that hurts. And I get that from her perspective that is true. But a moment ago Jordan you made room for a couple possibilities on his end that might also be equally true. And might in fact make his behavior maybe more painful than hurtful meaning. She experiences pain but he's not intending to hurt her. She has some tender spots in this

“department that his private porn uses touching on. And I think that might be important to recognize”

as well. Agreed. But what I'm also appreciating is that we have the potential to hurt someone unintentionally especially a partner when we're cagey about certain information. He might not be

aware that hiding and communicating like this can create problems but the reality is that it does

create problems. So this question of who's responsible for pain is kind of it's a tricky one. Yeah, another excellent point. And it can be true that her pain, which again is fair, really is making it hard for both of them to talk about this. He might be afraid and overwhelmed by her pain and she might be hurt and kind of turned off by his preferences. Throw all of those feelings together. And even if she's sitting in front of him saying, look, I'm willing to

hear the truth. I would rather know everything. Even if it hurts, please don't lie to me. He might still feel her judgment, her distaste, her heart. He might also be contending with his own feelings about others and just go, I can't, yeah, I can't talk about this. But can't, that's a flexible concept. He can learn. That's true. He could if you want to. Whether he wants to, that's another story. The tough thing is Gabe, even if he does decide to start being fully honest,

that might bring to the surface other potential incompatibilities between them. Yeah, getting better with the communication and openness might not fix the problem. In fact, it might ironically make it worse. But it would eliminate at least one huge level of their conflict. She can no longer blame him for withholding. Right. But also this depends on how important their sex life broadly speaking is to them. For some couples, it's not a big deal and that's fine.

Yeah. I mean, it's fine as long as both parties are on the same page and they want the same things, need the same things, value the same things. I'm not sure. Yeah, I'm not sure they are. It's just one more question for them to explore. I'm also curious a bit curious anyway about what else is going on in this life. The big thing hovering in the background, although I can't tell how big of a role it's playing here, is his mother's death. Oh, yeah, I'm glad you brought this up.

It was after she passed away that our friends started finding out about all this stuff. So that is interesting. I thought that was interesting as well. Did he start consuming all this porn as a way to numb himself and his grief and it got out of the hand? Was he consuming at the whole time? But the grief made him turn to it even more and he became more reckless about it. Is the grief making him care less about whether our friend finds out and what he thinks? Or is our friend

attributing a lot of this like the ozempic conversation to his mom's death because that makes it

“somehow easier to cope with? He mean like the only way I can seriously consider this recommendation”

is if it's truly a question of health and that's tied to your mom's mortality. That's actually a very interesting possibility. A related one which is what I thought it was was you encouraging a zempic is so hurtful to me. I have to believe that it's because you're grieving that you thought this would go over well at all. I'm kind of hearing both possibilities in our letter. I'm not sure. This ozempic thing man is so loaded. Yeah, so loaded.

I'm afraid that if we got into that, this letter would take up the whole episode. The whole question of size and weight and aesthetics, whether we can legitimately frame the stuff as a question of health or whether the moment you start thinking about losing weight, you're already in disorder territory. It's all extremely complicated. We are not qualified to really wait

around your weight, whatever they are. This is me inviting you to get curious here. There's

not me telling you how to think. You said you're a plus size woman. I don't know what that means. I can imagine it means a lot of things, but you also said that you're relatively healthy. I realized tiptoeing up to this is already a very delicate matter and I hope you can tell that I do it with a lot of love. My question for you is, does any of your anger and hurt and confusion about your husband's preferences? Does any of that have to do with your own feelings about

yourself? Maybe they have nothing to do with each other. Maybe there's some connection there. It's

“hard to put your finger on. I want to be clear. I'm not saying, hey, go on ozempic or you need to”

make a change. Unless you were like medically obese in which case I feel pretty comfortable saying it's time to start taking care of yourself. This is objectively dangerous. But my sense is that getting this wreck from your husband is particularly dicey for obvious reasons. And if it turns out

that he might have a point here, like if you could be taking better care of yourself, which might

have the added benefit of helping your sex life, if that's something you want to do, then there might might be something valuable for you to hear there. I wish it were not coming from him right now in this way, but this is where it's coming from. I recognize this is not a PC take. I recognize that a lot of people are yelling at their car stereos right now and getting angry at me. I make room for all of these reactions and beliefs. And I swear to you, I really do. I'm not here to tell

you how you should look or anything. But you chose to include that piece of information, which I appreciate. And by your own admission, your health could be better. So putting aside all of this very painful and not even confusing sex and intimacy and honesty stuff, just focusing with a lot of love and curiosity about you, the question I'm posing to you is, are you taking the best possible care of yourself? Not as a matter of aesthetics, not even just as a way to please your husband,

but as a matter of you taking good care of you. And if you did, would that change any of your feelings about all this? Intense question I know, but I'd be remiss if I didn't put it on the table. Warm up those angry emails, folks. I know it's a minefield. I get it. Well, yeah, very much the DMZ of marriage problems, but I appreciate that. I suppose all relationships are and that's kind of what we're talking about, right? Marriage is like a gymnasium for trauma and healing. Some people are

doing abs alone in the corner. Some people are jumping rope outside. Some people are doing partners, squats in the middle of the gym. That metaphor maybe doesn't make a ton of sense. Whatever, lots of different ways to be in a relationship is what I'm saying. Lots of different risks and upsides. Sorry about where you are my friend. I know it hurts. I'm also confident that you and your

“husband are right where you need to be because we always are, but the difference between living with”

this hurt and evolving from this hurt is what you do with it on your own and with him if he's up for it. But I do really hope that your husband finds a more helpful way to talk to you about this and that you remain open to understanding exactly why this hurts because my sense is that there are several contours to this hurt. And I hope that together you guys figure out how to talk about all this in a more direct way, including how you repair and how that informs the intimacy between you.

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Thank you for listening to and supporting the podcast. All the deals discount codes and ways to support the show are on the website at jordanharbingger.com/deals. Please consider supporting those that support the show. Now, back to feedback Friday. Okay, next up. Dear Jordan and Gabe, a couple of weeks ago your recommendation of the week was notebook LLM. I was up for a job at the time major events manager for citywide events. So

I uploaded the job description role, person spec, and every bit of info I could find about the company and got it to create podcasts about the role which I listened to throughout the interview process. I was so impressed by what it could do. Amazing use case. I love that you ran with this

“idea that AI is insanely good. I think I mentioned that a friend used it to create a summary of this”

pretty complicated legal case that he's involved in. That's right. And instead of explaining it to everybody and being like read the filing, which no one's going to do, he's like, here's a podcast about it. And I just know a lot of students use it, but prepping for a job interview is another brilliant application of this. Nice work. I was excited to email you to say that I nailed the interview and got the job, but it didn't go my way. Oh man, sorry hear that. Apparently, it was mine

right up until the last person they interviewed who had some very specific experience that I don't have. I'm really experienced in events and entertainment, but this person had police experience,

which gave them a safety edge, which was a priority for them. Historically, I've always been great

at interviews and got my early roles easily. I've then been promoted into senior positions, but since I had kids and am applying directly for senior roles, I've had this experience of being the runner-up for a job four times. Three after my first baby two years ago, I ended up going freelance because I couldn't land a job. And now it feels like history is repeating itself after my second

“baby. People keep reassuring me that the reasons I haven't gotten these jobs were all out of my”

control. I ask for feedback and it's always the same story. We loved you, we know you could do it, we'd love to work with you, but someone else had X-thing, so we gave it to them. But I am the common denominator, and I'm sure there's something I can do differently. Then recently, one of the companies I didn't get a role with last time contacted me to say the job is up again, and I have an interview. Do you have any suggestions of how I can get the edge that will move me from

almost there to we definitely need to hire, signed, trying to win over the boss when I'm not quite

sure how I come across. Excellent questions. So first of all, I'm very sorry of this interview

did not go the way you'd hoped. I know that job market is crazy and taking time off to have children, that can be tough, and there's so many variables and a job search just can just be maddening. But there are so many great signs here. The positive feedback, your mindset and taking responsibility for your results, looking for ways to improve, your creativity and the way you prep for interviews, this latest invitation to come back and interview companies don't do that unless

“they are genuinely interested in you. So this is all great news. So one general thought about”

getting real feedback while you're interviewing, it is really hard to do. These hiring managers, they might be telling you the truth when they say it was out of your control, that they love you, that they love to work with you. And look, I get the sense they do mean it, but if they're does happen to be more to it than that, they're probably not going to tell you. Both because it's uncomfortable for most people to give direct feedback, which sucks, and because it can

sometimes be sensitive or even legally risky, also even if this was out of your control from their perspective from where they're sitting, somebody better just happen to walk in, that doesn't mean it's actually out of your control. So it's kind of an annoying response, although I get why hiring managers do say that. And even if this were out of your control, that still means the other candidate had something that you didn't, right? So in a sense, it might be under your control,

and so far as a lot of these qualities or skills are ones you could cultivate too. I mean, you can't become a cop over night, but you can develop so many skills that you don't have yet. Or learn to tell the story that you can develop those skills pretty quickly, and here's how I would do it, given the chance, stuff like that. Exactly. And the story you tell about yourself, it's huge, it's kind of everything. So this is a dilemma that every single candidate finds

themselves in, how to know what's really happening when things don't go their way, how to get meaningful feedback when they need it most. And it sounds to me like these interviewers aren't really telling you the full story. Maybe it really is as simple as the other person had police experience, which we suddenly need right now. I guess that makes a lot of sense. But that could also mean that your story was not quite as compelling as it could have been for them to overcome

that person's experience. Or that they really shined in the interviews and connected on a personal level with the hiring manager, or that they had a relationship with somebody at the company that put them over the edge. I'm speculating obviously, but it would be great if these companies call you and said, you have A, B and C qualities we loved. We didn't see D, E, and F, that's where we'd focus, but they're not going to do that. So you're left with a few options. Option one is,

you go out of your way and be slightly pushy with these hiring managers and get the feedback you need. This is a bit awkward, but we've heard from listeners who have done this and gotten great notes. They're literally like, hey, listen, between you and me, totally off the record, I could really use some feedback on how this went, so I can get better. Please tell me how this went

willing to talk, but it is doable and it can be a game changer. Option two is, you try to get

feedback from other sources. Friends, family, peers, career coaches, that's pretty straightforward. Option three, you look inward. You do a post-mortem on your interviews. You consider all the signals and feedback you've gotten up till now. You connect the dots yourself. Of course, ideally, you do all three, but this is the work we need to do in order to get an accurate picture here. So my main question for you is, if you were being brutally honest with yourself, when you get quiet,

“replay your interactions, really listen, where do you suspect you need to develop? For example,”

are there any moments from your interviews that tug at you? Maybe a moment where you went, oh, I don't know if I'm really landing the sands or kind of feel like I'm bullshit and right here. I'm doing my best and I can see the hiring manager just zoning out a little bit. Those are usually good pointers to areas we need to develop. Another idea I would study, the person who did get the job, if you can, maybe you can ask around about them or check them out on LinkedIn,

you might learn something interesting, what experience they have that you don't, how they present themselves, how they brand themselves, LinkedIn is a personal branding, extravaganza, I'm not saying you should mimic this person or anything like that. That's probably a losing strategy, but this could be another good source of data. Another idea, since you're playing with AI, what if you typed up some notes about your job hunter, your recorded a voice note,

and dropped it into clutter, Chachi Peteer, go back to notebook, LLM, the good, the bad, you know, the sticking points, the questions you have right now and just asked it to give you an assessment and maybe some next steps and resources to keep developing. I feel like you could easily turn an AI platform into a kind of career coach. I mean, it is going to get some stuff wrong, but at the very least it'll point you to some next steps, you know, here maybe there are a few

practices or exercises or good books or maybe some communication templates for reaching back out to these hiring managers, you know, like following up asking for feedback in the right way, stuff like it's just an idea, it could be a cool use case as well. It's a great idea, but look, another tough fact about the job search is it's so much of it ends up being about personality, vibe relationships in a way that's quote unquote unfair, a few people over the years have written

us saying exactly that and I can see why I used to think like that too and it can be a tough pill to swallow for people who put a lot of stock into their credentials, but in another way, it's exciting because that's another dimension of this process that you control and it's a skill like any other. We are tribal creatures, all of us, we want to work with people we like, people we identify with, people who make us laugh. So yeah, absolutely keep working on your skills,

but I would also encourage you to make sure that you're shining just on the level of personality and personal style and connections. Are you relaxed and inviting when you're in these interviews or are you a little serious and task oriented? Are you able to chat and have a laugh a little bit during the interview or are you all business? Are you cultivating relationships that these companies are just hoping to hiring manager? You happen to meet with likes you? Who's rooting for you

in the organization? What social capital are you coming in with? Are you telling your story and

“answering their questions in a way that makes them lean in? That makes them really want to invest in you?”

I think that matters. Exactly. Are you going into these interviews feeling a little and secure about taking time off to have kids and having lost out in a few jobs or are you going in there really psych to figure out what they need and how you can meet that need? All of the stuff really matters. I would be remiss if I didn't do a shameless six minute networking plug here. This is literally what the course is for both to open doors to the interviews and to make sure that they stay

open so you can walk through them six minute networking.com. It's really simple stuff. You can start right now developing and maintaining those relationships. In fact, on that note, here's a somewhat crazy idea. What if you reached out to the person who got the job, the one with the police experience? And you were like, hey, I was interviewing for the events job. Congratulations on getting it. I can see why you were a great fit. I'm super intrigued by your background.

I would love to connect and have a quick phone call if you're up for it. Whatever version of

that feels right to you, if you can even find out who this person is. Of course, you never know

where that might lead. Maybe in six months, that person is in a position to hire someone else. Or they have relationships at other companies and they make an intro. Or they feel you in on what these companies are looking for from candidates and how to prep. In fact, when I was a lawyer, one of the things they had us doing because we were recruiting, they were like, oh, Jordan, you went to Michigan. Can you jump on this call with this other guy who's a few classes below you

that we might hire? And I would jump on the phone and be like, hey, Andrew, it's Jordan Harbin,

“Jordan, I don't know if you know me and the look, oh, yeah, I think I remember you, you were a couple”

years ahead of me. I'm like, yeah, you're thinking about coming to Thatcher, and profiting wood, huh, and like chatting it up because the company was like, oh, this guy will feel more comfortable if somebody he maybe knows is on the call. And when I got recruited, it was like, oh, Jeremy is over here and go say hi to him and he was like, oh, Jordan, hey, let me quit sort of walk you in the door.

And as you go guys might remember from the show, I did my first interview with this law firm while

the interviewer was eating a sandwich because I didn't schedule the interview. I was just walked in. And he's like, if you're willing to talk to me while I cram this subway sandwich in my face, then we can do the interview. And it was like 10 minutes of, yeah, well, okay, you want to do this? How do you watch football? Yeah, what do you think in New York? You'd probably be stuck in New York?

You know, like that was that was the interview because Jeremy, who was like my old roommate's new roommate or something like that, was like, oh, Jordan's cool. We're talking about twice. You know, it was like that. Really do be like that sometimes. Yeah. Look, different market. Right. That was law firms going, we will hire anybody with the pulse as long as they're not a super strong liability risk or a total jerk. That was the bar back then. So it's different now. But it's still

the whole getting walked into the door thing. Do not underestimate that. But yeah, if somebody reached out to me like that, I think I'd respond very well. And honestly, why not? It's not any crazier than reaching out cold to somebody you have zero connection with at all. But listen, all this said, so much of the job search really is about luck. Your skills have to align with their needs.

“You have to be the right candidate at the right moment. There's always a mystery to some degree.”

And in a sense, there is a lot of stuff that's out of your control. So the best strategy is just to generate as many dots as possible. Get as many at bats as possible to maximize your chances of getting lucky. Exactly. I think all you need at the end of the day is one company to say yes, but you have to kiss a lot of frogs way more frogs than you want to have to kiss. Frog kissing. That is what a lot of life is. I'm pumped for you, my friend. You sound like a very

diligent, responsible, hardworking person who has a ton to offer. I love that you're asking these questions and opening yourself up to as many sources of guidance as possible. It's inspiring, really. And I know it'll lead you to great places. Good luck. By the way, you can reach us Friday at Jordanharbinger.com. Please keep your emails concise. Try to use a descriptive subject line that makes our job a whole lot easier. If you've been disinvited from your brother's wedding because

your bride's to be head of falling out, you're trying to get your husband to realize that he was raised by narcissists who might abuse your infant son or you suspect your wife might be in the closet. You want to help her come out before you separate. Whatever's got you staying up at night lately, hit us up Friday at Jordanharbinger.com. We're here to help and we keep every email anonymous. All right. You know, it's almost as great as a life-changing career opportunity.

I discount code on a mattress and/or living trust and/or some supplements. We'll be right back. This episode is brought to you in part by Lufthansa. When people talk about travel, they usually focus on the destination, the hotel, the restaurants, all the stuff that happens after you land, but the flight is part of the experience, too. Just like a great hotel can shape an entire trip, so can a great flight. That's exactly what Lufthansa a legress is built around.

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Alright, next up. Hey, Jordan and Gabe. It's always astounded me how during an episode, you guys

will say something like that was episode 1192. It's so and so for anyone wondering, I've always figured it was a note written beforehand, but we've all learned that Jordan's memory has washboard abs. That is a very charitable way to save the memory of Dorie from finding Nemo, but okay. Your memory is rocking a vicious six back by dude. The reframe I didn't know I needed. Do you plan ahead of time the episodes you might reference during an interview or do you just

know them by memory? Yeah, we definitely do not know them by memory. When one of us says this, we either thought about a related episode when doing the prep and made a note to include it or in this more often, the case I'd say, we'll think of it in the moment, quickly Google it

And or Gabe will text me while I'm talking with the episode number that he looked up, so we don't have to stop, so I got an old Gabe GPT over here helping out. Another question, if you're cool with it, can you explain how you get ad revenue and how we can support you as listeners? Use your promotion codes, got it, but is that it? That is the main way, yes. And as I say all the time, it is so huge for us. It's literally the reason we can do the show. And it means the world to us when you

“guys use our sponsor codes when you need to get something for the house or by a gift or whatever,”

it's just absolutely huge, nothing replaces it. That's why we have the deals page and everything to make it as easy as possible. Sometimes I find myself listening to the ad break because I think

it could potentially help, but I'm never sure. If I'm going to listen to Jordan sing the homes

time, I'd like to think that there is an upside. So some places check like to the ad get delivered, but if you're forwarding through it, it's still delivered because it's downloaded. I mean, I don't know if there's some magical metric out there that measures whether people fast forward through the breaks as well and that factors into things somehow. I don't think that there is yet, but when you stick around and listen, you get the codes. You hear me talk about products that I've

personal experience with and I hope that gives you confidence and trust that I really genuinely believe in the sponsors and everybody wins. So that's why I hope you stick around. Finally, sometimes Jordan responds to Gabe reading the letter in real time, interjecting with outrage. For example, what? Oh my god, this is heartbreaking. I can't believe this. This person is crazy, full stop,

“which sounds like he's responding to something as he's listening to it with us. But then later”

he'll say something like we wanted to run this one by Corbin Payne, making it clear that they've already done their due diligence on it. Or his answer includes some sort of script he's offering the writer about how to respond to someone they're writing in about. How often does Jordan go into a question blind versus with a plan? Anyway, just thoughts that came to mind, they're very

low stakes, which is why I've never asked before, but I just got the itch this morning.

Signed pretty chuffed to learn some stuff about how often you're truly off the cuff. Fair question, and I'm happy to pull back the curtain a little here, even though part of me is like, do most people really care about the process, just enjoy the sausage bro. So the answer is, yes, sometimes I really do go into a letter totally blind. It happens all the time. This is how I used to do the show in the early days, all the time. 100% of the time was fun to improvise,

but there were obvious downsides. However, over the years your letters have gotten more and more complex and more and more nuanced and longer, and they've demanded better and better answers, then Gabe came on board with five or six years ago. Well, six years. Yeah. Six years ago, let's say, and our workflow changed a lot. Gabe, I'm about to pull back the curtain on you for a moment. I hope that's cool. Yeah. No problem. I'm just over here watching some porn. Yeah. So just let me know when

you're talking. I'm talking. Power Googling not say for work content that's going to make me insecure about my thighs. Good luck proven at doing my browser history as washboard abs. So you cleared that catch, Brad. Catch me out there. That's right. Man, that's so good. The mantra of every dude who rubs one out in a shared family laptop from the laundry room during his lunch break anyway. So the thing about Gabe, he's big on the prep. This is a man who preps.

And when he joined the show, he brought a lot more research and diligence than we had before. He made a big push to build our community of subject matter experts. He likes to take a lot of notes and come in with at least some general take and all of that just sort of rubbed off on me. I learned to like that way of working even though I'm a very improvisational person as you guys know. So it just kind of became our process. Both of us prepping individually mostly,

but sometimes together when it's a really tough question and then just flowing when we sit down to record. But as you can tell, we still feel our way through things and banter and stumbling to digressions and stories and stuff like that. So this is one of the things I appreciate about my collaboration with Gabe. I think we balance each other in a lot of ways. My chaos builds on his prep and his prep grounds my chaos. That's a nice way to put it. It really is an interesting

Yin Yang, you and I. So what you're usually hearing on feedback Friday is a combination of rigorous prep because that's you guys deserve, frankly, and spontaneity and actually just to touch

on something really powerful. I've learned in my career. It is the rigorous prep that allows

“for the spontaneity. I'm always surprised by how hard you have to work in order to truly be in the”

moment and be effective. But I digress. But about those questions where I'm reacting to the letter even though I've clearly already read it, you're actually hearing two things there. One thing is, I enjoy reacting to the letter as if it's my first time hearing it. And sometimes I'm remembering my reaction the first time I read it. I'm just restating it because it kind of puts us all in the same position. I don't know how that started. It was just organic. But a bunch of you told me

you like when we do that. And I guess that's one way that we get to be playful within the prep. The other thing you're hearing though, like you just said, my memory has washboard apps. My cognitive transverse abdominis is jacked. So sometimes when Gabe is reading the letter, I am genuinely reacting as if it is my first time hearing it. That probably doesn't make me look very good, but it's the truth. I'll read the letter, make some notes, turn it over in my mind,

and then days later, a million things have happened since then. We read it together, days later, and I'll be like, oh, oh, it's sister-rated amount. I didn't catch that the first hour weight. His mother said that. I totally forgot about that. So it's kind of ridiculous, I know,

spending more time with the letters than you do because I pick them and I edit them and then I read them several times while I'm taking notes. But even I hear new things and then when we read them together, because after I thought about a story and then I reread it for the fourth, fifth, sixth time or whatever, the details do take on new meaning for me anyway. I'll start making new connections, and then it's like I get to enjoy your stories all over again on a new level.

And then sometimes Jordan will seize on a certain detail in a letter. That also makes me pay attention in a new way. It's like, you know, when you're hanging out with a really good friend and then all this on your aware of how funny something is that you would have missed when you're alone or they point something out and you're like, oh, yeah, that is weird. That is really beautiful. That is hilarious. That just makes the letters new for me as well all over again.

Yeah, that's part of our collaboration. I think seeing these letters through multiple prisons, it's an interesting thing doing a show like this. Part of the magic, and I also have to give a shout out to Jayce, our editor, who's just a wizard in the edit, so much of what is seamless about a great show is the editor's touch. Part of the magic is what he does to create this thing every week without pointing to the wires, but it's also kind of cool to pull back the

curtain a little bit, and who knows, maybe our way of working gives you some ideas for how to do your own work. And yeah, you know, kind of what feedback Friday is all about learning from one another all the time. So thank you for ruining everything with your questions. I'm glad you're enjoying the show. Thank you for asking this question in our subreddit. I think that's kind of a fun place to discuss these kinds of things and other people, so many people are the same

or similar questions and upvoted it that we decided to bring it here on the show.

“Speaking of our subreddit, if you want to join us over there, it's on the Jordan Harbinger subreddit,”

if you are a reditor, a lot of cool conversations happening over there. You know what? I'm definitely improvising on the fly and have not prepared at all. This ad pivot will be right back. I'm Teresa and my experience in all entrepreneurs starts a shopping trip at full price.

I recommend shopping for the first day, and the platform makes me no problem.

I have a lot of problems, but the platform is not one step away. I have the feeling that shopping trip is a platform, it can only be obtained. Everything is super, simple, integrated, and connected. And the time and the money that I can't invest there by the way. So I'm in Vax-Tung. If you like this episode of Feedback Friday and found our advice valuable, I invite you to do what other smart and consider it listeners do that as take a moment support the sponsors.

They're all searchable and clickable on the website at Jordanharbinger.com/deals. And hey, if you can't find a code, something's not working for you, do email me, [email protected]. Somebody here will dig up that code for you. It is that important that you support those who support the show. Now, time for the recommendation of the week. I am addicted to it, Bella.

My recommendation of the week is, and this is going to sound kind of silly as many of these are, but it's the paint your own pottery places.

You know, you pass these all the time and you never go in there. A little while back, one of Jaden's friends from school invited him to go to one of these places.

“I think it was just like, she was taking her kids and she's like, "Oh, come join us."”

Jen's like, "Hey, do you want to come? We're kind of close by right now." And I was like, "I'll stay in the car." She's like, "This is going to be like 90 minutes long, at least." And so I was like, "I'll go in." And she's like, "Do you want to make a clay thing?" And I was like, "No, I'm just going to hang out." So the kids are painting, Juniper and Jaden. They made piggy banks, which they still used months later. And then Jen's like, "Yeah, just make something."

So Jen and I got into it. We made each other wedding ring holders out of these little things. They have sort of pre-made for you to paint. And now it sits on my desk and I put my ring on it from time to time. It's just a really cute thing that I see every day that my wife made from me. And I made one for her. And she's got hers in her bathroom. And I noticed that my dad actually still uses a crappy bowl that I made for him. And maybe kindergarten or something like that is a change bowl. And I remember they were like, "Do you want to glaze this?"

And I was like, "No." So it's like this unglazed painted solid blue only with holes in it. Terrible, terrible, clay bowl. And it's 40 plus years old on his desk that I made for him. You know, I was thinking of the other day because I went over to their house. They moved across the street a few years ago. The bowl is still on his desk. So he moved to California with this bowl that I made for him 40 years ago. And I just realized, "Wow, this bowl means something to him. This is a guy who got rid of everything." Right? He basically kept like a chair.

“I think a bed his desk and his clothes. And then he brought this crappy change bowl.”

So I'm kind of a fan of this. You pay a lot. It's expensive. It's something small. But what you get is super cute. And it's a fun thing to do together as a family or a friend group. So that's actually my record a week. Go over pay for a crappy ceramic bowl. And it might just become a family heirloom in a fun memory. Call of me mine. How about that? Yeah. How about that? All right. Next up. Hello Jordan and Gabe. I'm a fairly new listener of the show last three months. But I love every minute of it.

I feel like a genuinely better person. And more critical thinker ever since I started.

I am at a great point in my life with college kicking off. And I'm starting to make meaningful

Amazing to hear my friends. Super proud of you. Yes. I've read this letter once before. But I literally just heard that as of it with the first time. And yes, I am genuinely proud of you. Gabe, this is weird. I'm super in my head about responding in real time. This is genuine. You guys say so. I don't remember most of the stuff by the time I see it here.

I am also incredibly blessed to have never experienced depression or a depressive episode or severe

instability. I am almost always happy, which might be some different disorder. I don't know about. Yeah. Well, now you're just bragging. No, that's that's fun. I mean, dear lucky. That's great. Good for you. At college, I have an awesome friend group of people I've known since high school. What brought us together is a community theater that we all perform in. And we fall a bit into the dramatic stereotype. In that most of us are very open about hardships and mental health struggles. Everyone in the

group picks up me and this one other guy have talked about a depressive episode and all the others talk about how they relate. But when they turn to me, I have nothing to say. Maybe I'm misunderstanding things, but it feels like this is really becoming a wedge in my relationships with all these people. I currently just say something along the lines of, I'm so sorry that happens to you. Do you want to talk about it? But that feels more ineffective as time goes on.

“Honestly, that's a great place to begin. Yeah. The perfect place I would say.”

I wonder why that's becoming more and more ineffective. Do they want something different from this listener? Do they sense that they don't mean it or they want to just complain about being depressed, but not really talk about it. I'm confused. Or is this all perfectly fine? But our friend is just being like a maybe a tad paranoid that they're not fully there for them or something. Anyway, they go on. I really want to be able to make these friends feel like they are seen and heard,

but I don't know how to do that without truly knowing what they go through. How would you talk to these friends about this difficult topic without them feeling distant or unheard? And how would you tackle conversations like this in general? Signed hitting a spot of trouble as I increasingly

fumble when it comes to my friend's mobile fumbles. Interesting question. So first of all,

you sound like a solid friend that you want the people around you to feel seen and heard that you want to be there for them, especially since you haven't struggled in the same way. It's very touching. I'm sure it means a lot to them. As I said a moment ago, when you see a friend struggling and you say, I'm sorry you're going through it or you went through that, do you want to talk about it? I think that's really thoughtful way to respond. Yeah, truly one of the kind of things I think you

can say to someone, really, do you want to talk? I'm here to listen, whatever you want. I agree. I assume you mean it, of course. You're not just saying the words to say the words and check a box or you say it and they start opening up and you either check out or you start doing something else like trying to talk them out of it or you're giving them advice too quickly or something like that. I assume you're not doing any of that. It's just it's good to keep an eye on those things.

And if you offer and the other person doesn't take you up on it, that's perfectly all right. You can let it go or you trust they'll take you up on it when they're ready or you can say, if you ever want to talk, I'm here. Honestly, I'm not sure what you're supposed to do beyond that. Once they engage, we could talk about how to listen and how to relate, how to be in a tough conversation, how to be loving and supportive. But all that, it begins by just taking an interest in

them in the first place, which you seem to be doing. Well, it's the relating part that our friend seems to be getting hung up on. Like they said, I really want to be able to make these friends feel seen and heard, but I don't know how to do that without truly knowing what they go through.

“There's something in there. But that's what empathy is. Isn't it relating to and identifying”

with somebody even when you haven't been through what they've been through? It can be hard sometimes. It's not impossible. I wonder if that might be where they're getting stuck, though. Like, can I really be there for someone if I haven't been through exactly what they've been through? But I'm

with you, Jordan, yes, of course. And how amazing that we have the capacity to do that. But we have to

develop that capacity, especially if it doesn't come naturally to us. And you might have to listen for a little while and learn more about the other person to really be there for them. So if you're struggling to understand what it is your friends deal with, then that's a great opportunity to say, you know, it's weird. But I haven't really experienced a pressure before or I haven't dealt with it the way you have. So can you explain a little more? What does it feel like? How do you cope

with it? What do you want from other people when you're feeling down? You know, how can I help? And then again, just listen, I'm sure that would mean a lot to them too. That's a nice approach for anything really, not just a depression. Gabe, I wonder if maybe our friend here's a little too concerned about supporting their friends. Yeah, interesting. That's kind of what I was getting out a moment ago. But what do you mean by that? Well, okay, it's super sweet. They want to be there

for them. I think that comes from a genuine place. But I'm also hearing almost like an anxiety about not being there for them in the quote unquote perfect way. I don't know. Yeah, I'm hearing that too. There's genuinely wanting to connect and understand and worrying that you're not

“showing up in the best way for people. I get that. I appreciate that. And then there's this like”

obsessing or spinning out that you're failing your friends if you don't get them to talk about something or they don't see you as a person that they can talk to you about a certain thing. And I wonder if both might be happening here. Yeah, that's a really good observation. And so if there is a bit of that second anxiety, what is that about? Is our friend worried that these people are not going to stay close or they're not going to view our friend a certain way if they don't

open up? Does our friend feel some guilt or maybe even like a perverse envy that they don't experience depression in the same way? Does our friend have some anxiety about being just being different from them? Like, huh, I don't struggle with the same stuff that they do. So am I really

depressed like all the theater kids and, you know, I'm not able to be in their depression with them.

So where do I stand? That's interesting. You know, now that you put it like that, I have a strong feeling that the last thing is playing a role, especially at the stage, what 17, 18, hanging with friends

“who go back all the way to high school. I think in that life stage, also as an adult, but especially”

as a young adult, this question of, do my friends and I share the same neuroses, the same struggles. It feels very important. And if you're on a different wavelength in whatever significant way, can feel a little scary. Yeah, well, put it. Whereas the capacity for both difference and empathy hopefully increases as you age and you can stay close with people who are very different from you. But you hopefully also don't care as much about belonging in that way. Well, that's kind of where

my mind is going. I don't want to be overly tough here because this sounds like a sweet group of people, actors, community theater people, probably very sensitive, very extra, very in their feelings. And that probably creates a lot of intimacy, vulnerability, and that's sweet. But if you're a connection with these friends, if you're belonging in this group as a whole, depends largely on your mood states or your ability to get your friends to open up to you about their struggles.

And that's the main thing these friendships hinge on. I'll put it this way. That's something to keep an eye on. Okay. I'm not telling you to ditch your friends or anything like that. But I also wouldn't work overly hard to stay close with people or fight for a certain place in a friend group. If that's the main connective tissue. And I get why it's a big part of this community. I get why you're concerned about it. But it's also just something interesting to notice why exactly this

feels so urgent to you and how that shapes the dynamics of the group. But honestly, that's something I would say to anybody in any friend group. Because the motivations and politics of friend groups get tricky sometimes. And it's okay to grow in different directions. It's okay to grow in different directions. And it's also okay to trust that you can have different mental health from these people. And still be a valuable part of the group. You know, you can still love these people. And you can

still be loved. Even if your mind works differently. Yes. But I love that you want to nurture your relationships. I love that you want to be there for people. That quality is going to serve you so well in life. But you might be learning about the limit of your influence and other people. The limit of your ability to get them to relate to you in the way that you want. It's important to

“remember that it's also up to other people to decide whether to accept your interest and empathy”

and respecting those signals. My feeling is keep being kind, keep being curious, keep being nonjudgmental and available and all that good stuff and keep listening. And you truly can't go wrong. Thanks for joining our show fam. Well done on running with everything you're learning and for sharing your question with us. We need more emo community feed or nerds in our community. Keeps me and Gabe in our feet in the fields. Good luck. Don't forget to check out our episodes.

David Roy's Dr. Courtney Conley Todd Rose and our skeptical Sunday on the moon. If you haven't done so yet, speak an of emo the moon. So dramatic. Am I right? Show notes and transcripts on the website at Jordanharbinger.com. Advertisers deals ways to support the show on the website as well at Jordanharbinger.com/deals. I'm @jordanharbinger on Twitter and Instagram. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Gabe's on Insta at Gabriel Mizrahi. If you want to see a great waterfall, some

amazing waterfall and barefoot feet picks. Actually, you might make some extra money from that.

I don't know. Do I get a cut if people start buying your feet picks? We'll discuss. This show is created in association with podcast one. My team is Jen Harbinger, Jason, Sanderson, Robert Fogretty, Ian Beard, Toddis of Lauscus and of course Gabriel Mizrahi. Our advice and opinions are our own. I might be a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer.

“Consult a qualified professional before implementing anything you hear on the show. Remember,”

we rise by lifting others. Share the show with those you love. If you found the episode useful, please share it with somebody else who could use the advice we gave here today. In the meantime, I hope you'll apply what you hear on the show so you can live what you learn and we'll see you next time. You probably don't picture drug cartel operations running through rural America, but that's exactly why they're so hard to stop. Mariana Van Zeller breaks down

how these networks hide in plain sight using everyday systems and small-town blind spots to stay one step ahead. I've been covering the cartel for many years now. And I sort of wanted to do a story about cartel presence in you last. And once we started researching it, I realized that actually the story to be about all the things that we don't know about. I'll present to you us, including

the fact that they're in small-town America. So one of our first shoots for that episode was in

Georgia. And we started with the murder investigation of this woman who was tortured and be cut off her fingers and an eventually killed her. And she was killed by the cartel. And it was in the middle of nowhere in Georgia. And then we followed the investigation and she realized that they're everywhere. And particularly like to operate in small-town America. Less line-forced men easier to hide the drugs and have their distribution at works.

You know, it's so interesting about this story is that in order to get access to the cartel in the U.S. we actually had to go down to Mexico and gain permission and have them say yes. Because a lot of these groups have people that work for them in U.S. obviously the U.S. is the end goals where they were sending their drugs. And so eventually he said, okay, we've got you

waited and waited for days. I'm like, I never showed up. I want people to see many of these

traffickers. Again, do we do not condone what they do? It's difficult to even empathize, but the majority of the people that I talk to are people just like you and me. That don't have

the opportunities or the luck that we have. I try to always do my job as a journalist, which is

“the whole people accountable. If you want to hear how cartels hide in plain sight, check out episode”

1302 of the Jordan Harbinger Show. This episode is sponsored in part by what was that like podcast? If you're looking for a new show to add to your rotation, something that'll make you stop mid-Dishwashing and go, wait,

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stories, I invite you to check out what was that like? Every story is verified. Their site even has photos so you know even the most bizarre stuff you're hearing is somebody's real life. Listen to what was that like on Apple Podcasts Spotify or whatever app you're using right now. Start a test for a full-time test for a full-time test. On ShopbyFal.de/record.