695: Andy Stumpf - Leadership Lessons From SEAL Team Six, Discipline vs. Motivation, Team Guy vs. Navy SEAL, High Standards, and How To Be Drownproof

In the meantime, I have sent it to a few authors who I deeply admire and look up to.

“One of them is Jack Carr, the incredible Navy SEAL who's also written a number of New”

York Times best sellers, and this is what Jack said about the price of becoming. The quote to the price of becoming is a clear eyed look at transformation and the cost that comes with it, no hype, no shortcuts, just the truth about change and the discipline required to sustain it. This is a must-read if you are serious about doing work, that matters, buy it, read it, then

go forth and crush again, that's from Jack Carr, United States Navy SEAL and number one New York Times best selling author, I would love it if you would pre-order the price of becoming right now. You can do it at learningliter.com or go straight to Amazon in order the price of becoming. Thank you so much.

From the learningliter show, presented by Insight Global, I am your host, Ryan Hoff. Thank you so much for being here, go to learningliter.com for showing us this and all podcast episodes, go to learningliter.com now onto tonight's featured leader, Andy Stump, and listed at age 17, became a Navy SEAL. Mostly made it to SEAL Team 6, completed 10 combat deployments, was shot at close range

by an 8K-47, an Iraq, and returned to duty when doctors said he might not walk again. And he just released this instant New York Times bestseller called "Drown Proof". Eight life lessons to keep your head above water. During our conversation, we discussed the real difference between motivation and discipline. And why one of them cannot be outsourced in the other one can.

Then why the people with the highest standards can be the most at risk and what Andy learned the hard way from losing a mentor. And then what post-traumatic growth looks like and why anything we've been focused on the wrong half of that conversation. There was so much we covered ladies and gentlemen, please enjoy my conversation with Andy Stump.

I love the mantra that's both in your book and on your website. And that is quote, "What you allow in your presence is your standard. Can you tell me more what that mantra means?" I mean, it's pretty straight forward. I was talking with you before we went live. I was doing a corporate speaking engagement. The coolest venue ever at the Red Rocks amphitheater.

I was not on stage. And I went through a slide deck and literally I have a slide that says questions. And then I tell the audience, I'm going to leave you with one more thing.

“And I click it. And that's how I end my presentations is what you allow in your presence”

as your standard or I'll say. Another way to phrase it is what you walk past is your standard. And it's pretty clear what it means and it sucks because it applies to everybody watching or listening this. It doesn't matter what your corporate ethos is. It doesn't matter what your personal ethos is. It can be tattooed. It can be on a wall behind you a sticker, a banner. That's all great. But if your actions don't align with your speech, it means nothing.

And speech really, you know, we can argue about the value and the impact it can have actions truly have impact. So what you allow, what you choose not to address is the actual standard for yourself as an individual and as a business regardless of whatever you may have written

somewhere else. It's tough. It sucks. I love that you because when I first read it, I thought

about the people you allow in your life and you focus most of that though on holding yourself to the standard and that whatever you say is fine, it's what you actually do. Now let's expand on it though. How does that apply to the people in your life? The people you choose to surround yourself with? You hit the nail on the head with who you allow into your

“life. We live in a world where I think it tugs at everybody if they are, we'll call it”

consumer facing it all. If you participate in the social media ecosystem, which you and I do because we can tell ourselves, it's a part of our business and it is a part of our business, but also it feels nice to be recognized. It can feel nice. And we all have egos that's totally

fine. You know, I always advocate for keeping it in check, but I never tell people not to have

as possible to have as much influence and touch points as possible. And those are important things.

And I do believe that influence and impact are very important. But for those that you actually allow in your personal life and this can be friends or actual family. What their behavior, the things that you allow them to do in your presence without going unaddressed, the standards that you hold the boundaries that you hold in those relationships, it's exactly the same thing. You can control almost nothing in your life, but you can control the boundaries that you set

and maintaining those boundaries. And it's really just the same thing. It has such broad applicability.

“That's why I love it. It crosses that barrier between personal and professional. It really impacts”

every aspect of your life. Gosh, okay. You said that you knew you wanted to be a navy seal since you were 11 years old. How did you know I was 11? I don't know. I certainly didn't have the vocabulary then to explain it. And I spoke like to believe my vocabulary has gotten a little bit better in the 37 years since then. At this point in my life, I could say, you know, there probably was some level of the difficulty. I knew that the odds were not in my favor. I knew that the job

was going to be difficult. I knew that the job will use the term exclusive, just meaning that the vast majority of people who attempted are not successful. Those had something to do with it, but that's not it. And those things aren't enough to get you through the difficult times, specifically in training. I was anomalous when I was young, knowing what I wanted to do at that age. And it was very bizarre among my peer cohort group. I was born and raised in Santa Cruz,

California, which traditionally has been and still continues to be a bastion of liberalism, which is awesome, live your life, however you want to. But point me saying that is, I didn't have a lot of friends that were like, yeah, let's join the military. I was a little bit anomalous in my peer group. But while my friends were studying for their SATs and doing their college admissions,

I was in the gym. It just made sense to me. There was something about that job that when I first heard

about it, it clicked. And it was a gravitational pull in my life ever since that point. What's crazy is that when I got into the community, it was the single most common narrative I heard in between the individuals. So totally anomalous outside of it surrounded by people who also would say, yeah, I really want to do it. And I really don't know why. It's not that they didn't know why. You struggle to find the right words as to why it motivates you so much and why you want to go

down that path. Do you think it's something with your upbringing or just how you were wired when

“it comes to, I want to do the hardest thing in the world? I think it's probably a measure of both.”

You know, humans are crazy unique species. And I know enough, and I have three children of my own now so I can be a little bit more reflective and objective than looking at them. None of them have ever expressed an interest in joining the military. I can count on one hand the number of times they've asked me about my military service. I'm resoundingly the most uninteresting person in their life. It's fantastic. I absolutely love it. But I have two boys in a girl. Same genetic DNA.

They couldn't be more different. They're motivated by different things. They like different things. They're drawn to different things. And I think it's a measure of both. I think upbringing and who you surround yourself with or how your parents raised you or the environment you're raised in is incredibly impactful. But there is some aspect of it that you just come out of the box wired for certain things. And that's just the way it is. You're right about the difference

“between a Navy seal and a team guy. What's the difference between a Navy seal and a team guy?”

Were you out my speech yesterday? Because that was the second to last slide. No, but I would like to see you speak. But I mean, I guess I get a version of that right now. So this is cool. It's the difference between somebody who is there for a title and an individual journey and a self-centered view of the world versus somebody who is there for the mission and the team. And in one of those, you arrive together. The team guy you arrive with your team. The seal

you arrive by yourself because it's an individual drink. There's nothing wrong with either of those.

And I'm always clear when I talk about that. It's just different. What's interesting using the

seal versus team guy. Team guy is an internal term inside of the community. Most people may not understand it. Externally, both wear the same uniform. So it's very hard to tell from the outside. There are people who join the seal community that use it as a resume bullet. They're there for four years. They do their minimal obligation and they move on and I have nothing but respect for that.

Some stay for 30 years. Also a personal choice. You have earned the right to do what you want to with your experiences. But what I will say is this internally at the command where everybody wears the same uniform and would be indistinguishable to the outside world. We 100% know the difference

between the two. Again, one's an individual journey, one's a team journey. Were you always a

team guy? Did you go in as maybe a seal and then became a team guy like how did it go for you? I would have to let other people that I searched with decide that for me. I don't think it's fair for me to rate my own career. What I will say is I did my absolute best at all times to care more about the people next to me than I did about myself. I think that is one of the determining factors between the seal and the team guy as well too. Or you could call it the individual or the

team player. Whatever vernacular make click and the reason I put it into my presentation

“is that you have to be really careful who you hire and how and how you talk about the ethos and”

morals of your organization. What type of person are you looking for? Personally, I'd rather have a

group of team guys than a group of seals even though they were exactly the same uniform. The end

state that trajectory and your ability to accomplish sometimes unbelievable things is 100% aligned with what group of people that you bring into your organization. I think this could apply so much on any team in any company. And so I guess the natural question that for me is so whether it's the interview process or some sort of recruiting process of hiring and or promoting leaders. Let's say we want the team guys. We don't want the seals or the people who just

want the VP title or whatever that external validation is. So what do you do to ensure you're getting a team guy versus the individual or the person who just loves the idea of being a seal or the loves the idea of some sort of a title that you get from getting a promotion on a company? Yeah, so you start off with the entry points which would be how you interview how you hire. Then there's the onboarding process as well too. And a lot of organizations it's fascinating to me.

They really will skip an onboarding process and oftentimes they'll justify it through the lens of a budget where they don't have time or they don't have the mechanism in place. And all of those are very real things. I'm not here to tell people how to structure their business. I can only talk about my own experience and the really multi year, which I'm not recommending for corporate America, but the multi year mentorship onboarding process to really get somebody

up to speed in the community that I came from. Again, not recommending that, but it is in the onboarding process that you can reinforce the things that you're talking to somebody about in that

“interview and hiring process. And then beyond that, you need to keep an eye on the people that you hire.”

So I would say, at a minimum by annual feedback and you sit down and you basically do an

after-action review on their performance. And that can be split between their performance and how you are perceiving them to be as a person. I'm here to tell you as an organization. It's way easier to solve this problem on the front end that it is 10 years down the road or five years down the road when these people are really ingrained in your organization. It's just tough. It's easier to orient up front, but it's consistent feedback. People in leadership positions, not saying it needs

to be exhaustive, but it can be at times. And you have to hold yourself accountable to the people who work for and with you. And you do that by making sure that you are giving them feedback and sitting them down and doing these reviews and talking about changes you need to see in behavior. I'd rather have an organization let somebody go six months in as opposed to six years in. When they may have already catastrophically impacted the culture of an organization.

So the earlier that you can identify these things, the earlier you can implement these things in your process, the better off you're going to be. What about on the hiring process? Do you have any questions you like to ask? Let's get real specific right now. What are some ways in the actual decision-making process of who we're going to have come aboard our team, our company, to say, because everyone's on their best behaviors in the interview. It's still really hard.

I was going to go there right away. We get fooled. We've all made bad hires. Those of us who have hired, it happens its life. But how can we minimize the number of mistakes we make in the hiring process? It's a tough one because like you said, people, especially if they're highly motivated for the position, they're going to wear a pretty good mask. And that's okay, because we know that

“that's going to be the case. It's everything after that that I think you have to pay attention to.”

In the hiring process, I would ask more creative questions. Avoid yes, no. Leave it open-ended, allow them to speak. In that process, put it like an 80-20. You're talking 20% of the time, you're trying to get them to talk 80. Just to listen. The more you can get people to talk, specifically if they're wearing a mask, like they're trying to hide who they're really or.

tell you something, it's not always a bad idea. Just to listen and say, maybe they mean that,

you know, take a few notes. So the hiring process is imperfect. We can agree on that. Neither is seal selection and the process that gets people into the community. It's the consistent feedback afterwards in paying attention. It's after that process is when you really get this chance to see what they say versus what they do. And you know, you mentioned you've hired people before, right, you had a bad hire. Sure. I mean, let's be totally honest. You generally know pretty early.

You're like, I don't know. The mistake most people make is they say, maybe we need to give it some more time. And maybe you do. But if you don't have a system in place to help correct that behavior, maybe it's additional training. They need, maybe it's additional tools that they need.

“Maybe you need to explain them a little bit better. The roles and responsibilities of their job.”

If you don't have any of that and the behavior continues at some point in time, the decision needs to be made either we need to find a better position for this person inside of our organization or we need to remove them. And it's very common because letting people go sucks. You identify early. And it's in your presence. And you don't know anything about it. And it sucks. I admit the same mistake. Yeah. Unfortunately, we all have and usually know quickly and then

it's, oh, let me give them some time and it almost never works out. I want to get it to

drown proof because it really caught my eye both the title as well as the visual of the cover. I do not have a military background. Did drowning individuals? Yes. I don't have a military background. But I've hired special forces operators. I hold you in the highest regard. I'm so incredibly grateful for your service to our country. I could go on it on. I'm curious, what made you choose the title of

“the book? I am a firm believer that I've never had a unique thought in my life. I swear I think I've”

just repurposed things that I've been exposed to where I have experienced personally. I don't only want to ever be known for my 17 years in the military. I would like, I don't, you know, the average life span of American. Maybe I can do a little bit better than that and spend a lot more time out of the military than when I was in. And there are a lot of books for people from the community. Some of them are very war story based, some of them not at all, some fiction, some non. I knew what type

of book I wanted to write and after I had laid out a few of the chapters in determine what it is that I wanted the book to be able to provide. The thought of keeping your head above water kept coming back to me. The cover image is not a photo that I took. There was an ex seal who became a professional photographer. And he was given access to training that almost nobody else is, of course, because he's a trusted entity. And he took about four of the photos that were in the book to

include the cover image. And I happened to be going through and looking at pictures and I saw that

“and it just in absolutely clicked. Right? First, you have to survive. Then you can build and thrive”

on top of that. And in the evolution, what you're looking at in that picture is an evolution in lads called drown proofing. So it sold itself, the title in the picture kind of came as a single package and it aligned perfectly with what I was trying to accomplish with the book. So can you walk me through that training? I've heard of it. And how to do it? Well, is that the right way to ask the question? I mean, it's past fail. Yeah. I mean, I know it's something along lines of of staying

calm, right? My background's athletics as a quarterback in part of how to be good at that position is to be able to be calm in the chaos. There's lime in all over you. You got to stand in there and make the shot, right? And in this case, it's more life and death, obviously, with what you've done. But this is a version of training that can lead to very bad outcomes if you're not able to remain calm in the chaos. So I'd love to hear it from your perspective of what that training is like in

how it's helped you. Sure. So the evolution itself, people don't believe me when I say this. It's actually one of the easiest evolutions you do in training. It's an hour. So the actual test, at least when I went through, is you bob up and down. You're bouncing off of the pool floor. You push off. You exhale when you get to the top. So you become negatively point. You come down. You bounce off. You come up. You get a breath of there. And you go back down. So for an hour, you do that.

The reason I say it's one of the easiest evolutions. And you've already hit on this. If you can be calm and control your breathing rate, you can only get yelled at by the instructors for about a quarter

of a second. Well, you're head to above water. For an hour, you're just chilling out, just re-hear

the bubbles going. It's not bad. And, you know, on the cover image, their hands are tied by their back and their feet are bound together. We don't do that initially. They go out there and we'd say, "What your hands bind your back and just keep your feet together?" And they practice. Then they start with very light Velcro straps so they can easily break them apart. Then on test day, they're actually tied. And it's also a one-to-one ratio. So what you don't see

is that there's one student tasked with watching another one in the water. And there are a bunch

It's a challenging evolution, but the safety net is there and it's a crawl walk run philosophy.

We just don't throw them to the walls. But you bounce up and down for an hour.

“Then you have to transit the pool, 50 meters and 50 meters. With your feet tied together”

and your hands tie behind your back. So it's a little bit of a dolphin purpose. It's more challenging because you don't want to sink on this one. So you're taking a deep breath and you're trying to stay as positively buoyant as possible. What you dolphin kick. And you have to kind of time your head coming up, getting a breath. So it's a little bit, it's different breath maintenance control. But again, practiced robust sleep before we have them do this evolution.

Then they get back to where they were bobbing. They start bobbing again. This part of the test, I don't understand. And I feel like it was just generational trauma passed down from previous instructors. They throw a mask into the water. You have to bite it with your teeth, bob up and down again for a minute to show you can do it. And then do a front summer assault underwater and then the test is over. And I don't know why those last two things occur.

And then that's the end of drown proofing. Well, I have no explanation. What's the past fail per sentences on that? Super high. I'm telling you, it's not hard. It's really not hard. It's not an exercise in being drown proof. It's an exercise in self-control. You are very capable of still

drowning after that. I would love to say that there has never been a seal lost to drowning. There was

two lost just a few years ago in the Middle East that fell off of the ship during a ship boarding. It happens. There were two active duty seals that were found dead at the bottom of the pool in Virginia Beach multiple years ago. They think that one had to shell a water block out and another one went in to try to help and had the same thing happen. It doesn't make you drown proof. The test occurs in the water but has almost nothing to do with the water itself. It's self-control.

Yeah, how do you use what you learned in that exercise outside of the pool in your everyday life? How is that type of training helped you outside of the actual doing of the thing? So this is easy to say but hard to live. It refocuses and centers you on the one thing that you can actually control, which is yourself. Even if the world is being chaotic around you or you're in a medium like the water, which is so unforgiving. It is fascinating to me

how little people respect the water, especially those that have never really spent a lot of time in it. They're very cavalier. You're going to die if you're not careful. So that environment where you

“don't get to choose when you can breathe, you have to focus internally on self-control and breathing”

when you can. In every situation, I've been in my life for everything I've tried to accomplish in my life post-military. It's always helpful and beneficial to me to go back to, especially when things feel like, you know, this is happening and so many things are happening and a velocity or rate or you're trying to accomplish something. Okay, what can I actually control? I can't control the chaos, but I can control myself. I can control my breathing. I can take a break. I can take a beat.

I can prioritize the things that are the most important and focus on those first and not get

distracted by Instagram and Twitter. You know, those type of things. It's a lesson that has an opportunity to be expressed everywhere, but I'm not immune to the distractions of life either and it is so easy to get trapped in those things, but what I do when that happens is walk myself back to exactly that concept. The world's chaotic around me. It doesn't mean I need to be chaotic. Probably means I need to slow down and focus on self-control. It reminds me of an exercise you

wrote about in your book that, correct me if I get this wrong, but on one side of the paper it says concern or you write concern on the other side you write influence. Can you walk me through that exercise? Yes, so it's the circle of influence versus the circle of concern. And you can do this as a circle or you could do it. I think it's just a little bit easier on a piece of paper. Draw a line down the center of a legal pad. On the left hand side, put concern because you're going to need

that left hand column for a little bit more. And you can put on that, anything that occupies your bandwidth or time. Things you are worried about. Things you are trying to accomplish. Things that you are concerned with. It's going to be a really long list. Then on the other side of that, which is influence. And by influence, I mean you have direct influence or control over. You're actually only going to be able to put down one thing or derivations of one thing.

“However, people would want to do this as fine for myself. The only thing I'm ever able to put down”

there is myself. What do I have actual control over? Now the derivations are easy. I have control over my time. I have control over the self-talk that I use. I have control over the goals that I set. But those again are downstream from what I consider to be it's just a little bit more concise to

it's always on that left hand column. Because again, life is sticky. And there are things that are

“designed to be attention grabbing. And I have children and I have businesses and other things that”

I want to accomplish. It's so easy to get lost in things and worry about things you can't control. And every time I do this, my mental health and headspace gets better because I can't reorient and center and it's a bring it all the way back to the ground-proofing evolution and focusing on bobbing up and down and when I can take a breath, when I need to relax and just taking control of myself in that chaotic environment. I wonder how this works. I've never been shot before,

but you have. Good. 10 out of 10. Don't recommend. Yes. So you're in battle. Believe it's just 2005 and I rack. It's seal team six. Yep. So we're in Iraq. February 5, 2005, specifically. Okay. Want me through that day and how you, because I read that doctor said it would take years if ever for you to be able to come back and you came back much quicker than that. Maybe want me through that day. What happened and how you chose to respond? Yeah. I wish I could say

there was something exciting about that day or out of the normal. In 2005, we were very busy. So every night, during the daytime, we were mostly sleeping. We called it being on vampire schedule. We'd get up as a somewhere down and we would work until the sun came up essentially.

“And every night, we were doing something else. This particular night, I believe we were going after a”

kidnapping cell that hadn't executed a kidnapping yet, but they were looking at potentially being ready to go do so. This night, we drove to the target, because it was a ride on the board of between Baghdad in Fluja walked through a burning garbage dump. Also 10 out of 10 don't recommend that. Smells worse than you can imagine. And probably not great for a long-term health. We were, I had to talk a little bit broadly about it. We were trying to geolocate this person

electronically. So we had some specialists with us and the devices at least back then. They had and they still do a little bit of round-off air. So we had to move around a little bit to triangulate and in doing so some other people saw us. So we made some noise farther down the street. Very normal stuff. Everything I'm describing to you is not a typical for a military operation. What I was doing. Or we, I should say, was that was a part of a much larger team.

Eventually came back and kind of retraced our steps. And the, we'll call it the widget guy,

said, hey, this is your building. So kind of put together a plan. And I happen to be the first guy

over the wall. And I was going to provide security for another member of our unit. It was going to put a breaching charge up on the door. We were going to explosively breach the door on our side. And a couple of the other guys hopped over the wall. And as I was walking up to the door, off to my right, the building kind of jetted out a little bit. And almost as like a garage is do oftentimes with a really large window. And I just didn't want to turn my back to that without

looking into it. So I took my eyes very briefly, off of the door and the window that was right there to look to my right. And the second that I did that from what I heard from other people behind me is a guy raised an AK47 up above his head and started shooting. And he hit me with probably on the first or second round. They came out of that. And you know, that was the kind of the end of my evening spun me around, flat on my back. I got pinned under a car, not awesome. And yeah,

everybody else had to do everything. And I ended up getting drug out of the courtyard, put up against

“the wall. There was, I believe, seven or eight U.S. soldiers injured on that target. So we were”

helicoptering people off. The most severely injured I ended up getting driven to the green zone, the hospital and the green zone in the back of a Bradley fighting vehicle with another guy who'd been shot through the hand. And yeah, that was the end of that deployment. And that was about a two-year pause on my operational career. I got a lot of we don't know's, maybe's from people with advanced medical degrees because it was, don't give me wrong. Getting shot didn't feel good. But the time I got

to the hospital, my ankle actually was my cheap complaint. It felt like somebody had been smashing it with the sledgehammer. And come to find out later on, that was the termination point of my sciatic nerve, which is what the round impacted or interacted with. Where did it hit you? Ruh, high up on my hip on my left hand side. And the doctors again, and they're doing the best they can. They're like, listen, the shock wave might have interacted with it. The bullet might have pierced

some portions of your sciatic nerve. But the reality is I couldn't move my foot at all. I had

total hemoplysia on the left hand side, so paralysis of my left leg. They said, hey, we don't know. We don't know if it's total. We don't know if it's complete. We don't know if it's going to come back. Nervs drove at a millimeter a day or an inch a month. So for full recovery, it would need to grow from the point of impact all the way down to the termination point in your ankle. It may do that. It may not do that. I mean, they were just being honest. They didn't know.

And yeah, it took me two years to get it to a place where I was able to, I left the command

doing my own rehab. After 18 months there, that's where I picked up my commission and became an officer,

“and then did my final operational tour at Sealting 3. But about two years to kind of”

Humpty Dumpty to put himself back together again. I would say in the mix of physiologically and psychologically as well. What made you want to get back out there when you would have had even the most killer seal would say, I get it, man, you've done your time. You've served our country. You could go chill now and you said, I want to get back out there. So I ever wanted to do. And I was at a place with people that I had dreamed about. It was

everything that I thought it was. I felt like I was an indie car just pegged out. I was going to say fifth gear, but I feel like they had 10 gears. So whatever top gear in Ecar has, I feel like we were just red light, just that line between yellow and red and just operating, and then all of a sudden, you're like, oopsie, where did that transmission go? Cars not driving so well anymore. And I wanted to get back to that. It's where I wanted to be doing the things

I wanted to do with the people I wanted to be with and then gone. Did it take some time to kind of

“get your mojo back? Did you have any confidence issues? What was it like when you came back?”

I mean, it's, so I got to team three as the training officer and ended up deploying as part of one of their operational units because there was almost no experience in Afghanistan and they were sending a unit there. So I went with that unit. So it was probably three years before I started doing tactical training again. And I was just rusty. And even in the tactical training stuff though, it's as realistic as you can get it, but in the back here mind, you know, it's not real.

So you still have that. But I do remember when we went over to Afghanistan in 2010 and we needed

to go clear compound on one of the first objectives that we went to and I'm sitting there and my

hope still got it. Wow. Wow. The idea of confidence comes up. I feel like a lot, especially as a dad and coaching sports teams now. And I think one of the ways and you got to draw a lot from this is one of the ways to go earn some confidence is to prove it, right? Is to go do the thing, do something hard, do something you're scared of and then you do it and you come back. I have to believe that seems like a great example of that. Oh, do you still have it? I don't know. And then you

go do it and then boom like have that impact your confidence. I mean, it felt good. I had the tactical knowledge. I didn't know if my body was going to sustain the physiological demands, which in the end, it was barely able to do during that 10 month time period. And I got medically retired from the command that I went to after that. I went back to another training command. Essentially, to go through the military retirement process, the medical retirement process.

So I had vastly more combat experience than almost everybody that I was with, but I was unsure as to whether or not my body could tolerate it. So it was a mix of both. I mean, sure, I was able to take a deep breath and be like, okay, cool. We're still able to do this. But then as the deployment went on, I had to have hard conversations with myself, because I still was able to do it. But at what level? And I rolled my ankle so badly. That's

the vein of my existence is the stability of my ankle, my left foot. I rolled it so badly doing a

basically a long walk towards an objective twice that I almost had to call a helicopter into

metaback myself. And so, you know, it's a tough conversation when you realize you might be the physical limitation, and literally, you know, liability for the element that you are with. And nobody wants to be in that spot to include myself. So I knew at the end of that deployment that that was going to be the last hurrah for sure. Well, one of the parts of your story that I it was both heartbreaking, but inspiring to read about is a mentor of yours. And that's Dave

Hall. You learn some valuable lessons about leadership and responsibility from him. Especially right after you earned your seal, Trident, can you? Can you tell me more about some of things you learned from Dave Halls? Well, some of the heartbreaking parts of that story? Yeah. Yesterday, it would have been his 53rd birthday. Wow, gone for five years. Yeah. I learned how to be a steal from Dave. I mean, you can have the qualification on paper. You can go get the,

“you know, you can order on Amazon if you want to a Navy seal Trident. And for those of you”

listening, go for it. I wouldn't wear it out in town, and I wouldn't take a lot of pictures with it. But if you'd like one, they're available. Why? I don't know. But, you know, that information is a gift. Do with it what you want. So you can have the pin, and they can change your designator inside of the

Navy system. But it'd be the same as a lawyer that's right out of law school that has never

walked into a courtroom. Just because you get through law school doesn't mean you know how to do that. And it's the same thing in the seal community. I understood, I could remotely repeat a tactic. But I didn't know why we did it. I can tell you what we should do in this situation, but not necessarily why. And there is a huge gap between the book knowledge and the streets

leadership at tool, especially if your organization cares about its future. And that's specifically

“what we use inside of the seal community. I get very lucky with Dave. And I just happen to be assigned”

to the same team and the same platoon as him. And he was a sniper. He was a point man. He was a com guy. He was a military free-falled child master, a static line jump master. I mean, all of it. And just a student of war in and of itself tactics, US history, it was just awesome. And so I was oftentimes attached with working with him. And he would just give me just the perfect amount of rope to hang myself to do something stupid. And then maybe he would help me get it around my

neck, just a little bit, you know, and then I would, I would fall short. He would crush me.

And then show me what to do or how, you know, not do it for me, but sit there and facilitate

the things that I needed to do it to fill you the gap in knowledge or technology or whatever it may be. And he did that across such a broad spectrum of things he met. Not only did he meet the standard he exceeded the standard in every measurable metric. He held himself to a higher standard than he held other people too, which unfortunately, you know, not to be a downer. But for the audience, I no longer have access to Dave because he killed himself five years ago. And one of the reasons

I feel like I'm speaking for him a little bit based on some of the information that he left behind is that he couldn't hold himself to the same standard anymore. And it destroyed him. But I don't think he realized how many people he had touched in such an impactful way inside and outside of that community. I appreciate you sharing high standards. You've lived around high standards. You are a high standards guy. We open talking about what you

allow, you know, in your presence, you're standard. I'm deeply attracted to people with really, really high standards. But we're seeing here there is potential downsides to that as well. And I'm sure, again, Dave's story has a lot more than I don't know about. But what do you think about living with these really, really high standards? And both the good parts about that as well as the potentially devastating parts of that? I think it's like a finely sharpened blade.

They can cut in both directions. Standards are great. I mean, having, you can just look at examples to people that seeming we have none. Their life takes a very different course and trajectory than those that I think you and I would look at and say, you know, what? That's a high standard individual and man, the story of their life and the things they have accomplished are very, very different.

“I think you have to be realistic, though. Not everything in life is life and death. Actually,”

most things aren't. But if your standards and metrics are formed in that environment, it's very possible that they can become the goal-post for your life. You know, one thing about Dave,

and I always talk about this when I talk about his passing, he had a substance abuse issue.

He really had a problem with alcohol and that tied into it as well. I didn't see the toxicology, but I know that when he was found that he was surrounded by cans and bottles. So I'm going to make the assumption that he wasn't sober when he made that decision. But for somebody who is their entire identity is defined by the rigidity of their standards and you have no grace for yourself or no ability to reach out to others and ask for help or a very limited ability, largely because

you think, and these were self-imposed feelings of embarrassment or shame or feeling like nobody else would understand or you're the only person experience. These lies we tell ourselves are so, so dangerous. And I write about it in the book. I met a place into my life where I love people having incredibly high standards. But I would rather see you fall a little bit short of your life-long hole or a little bit short of your standard and be in enriched and infulfilled in a happy person

“as opposed to achieving that one thing that you have to find your life by and then you have nothing.”

Because I bet both you and I know people who are like that. They have all the money in the world and they have nobody around them. They're isolated and I can't imagine a worse feeling than that. Not everything is worth your life. Not everything is worth putting your life on the line for have some room and space for grace for yourself. Now that is not an excuse to let yourself slide. I'm just saying be reasonable. Have you dealt with similar thoughts? Have you had to work through

some of the PTSD stuff? How have you managed through all of that? Because I know, unfortunately, this is becoming so common in people who have seen what you've seen and done what you've done.

stuff that most of us have not done. How have you personally managed that?

I mean, well first, post-traumatic stress is certainly real. And it gets real dangerous when people

get into the realm of competitive suffering, which is not what I'm saying you're doing, but you sometimes see it. Oh, you're dealing with that? We'll check this out. This is what I'm dealing with. You know, trauma doesn't have to destroy you. To me, post-traumatic stress disorder is one thing.

“I like to focus on post-traumatic growth. I think that trauma, if you take the time and energy to work”

your way through it, which is not to say that it's going to be easy, continuing to a better version of yourself. I think I am a better person than I was before my military service and experiences because of them. And the suicide statistics they don't lie, but one thing that has often left out in that conversation is how much trauma some people are bringing

into the career before they layer on the things that are associated with that career. I can again

speak to Dave as an example. He came from a pretty rough upbringing. He had a few sea bags of trauma that I'm not so sure he dealt with before he came into that career. So yes, it's real, but trauma can also be compounding over a lifetime and to only focus on the suicide after military service and to say the causation of that is directly related to their trauma in the military. I don't think that's actually very accurate. It can be corollary, but I don't think it's causal. I think we have

to spend a lot of time looking at what people bring into it as well. It's a very difficult, very nuanced conversation. I try to be open on as reflective about my experiences. I'll tell people where I fell short the mistakes that I've made. I talk openly about leveraging counselors and therapists many times for years throughout my life. I'm on an expert at the geometry of what goes on and why the brain works it does between my ears. I'm an expert in my experiences.

But I don't necessarily understand how they interact with each other in ways to deal with that. And because there are occupations of people who specialize in exactly that, just like I don't know how to fix my car or truck. So when it breaks, I'm not getting under the hood. Nobody wants

“that because then I'm just going to need a tow truck. Hopefully I can get it to the specialist, you know?”

Yeah, one of the things you write about is the difference between motivation and discipline. Part of your motivation at times has been a desire to prove people wrong or doubters wrong. Hell yeah. Hell yeah. That's true for you, too. Come on now. It's almost true for everybody. What do you really think? Like, okay, let me let me lace something out for you. I'm glad you did this. Okay. Yeah. One of the stories I like to tell myself and I want

it to be true, but maybe it's not fully true, but I want it to be true. So I keep saying it is, I prefer to prove my supporters right. The people that love me, my parents, my brothers, my wife, my kids, my friends, teammates. I want to prove them right. That feels good. It feels great because when it goes well, then we celebrate together. When I prove doubters wrong, I'm by myself, the doubters are nowhere to be found. So it's not as fun because

what do we do then? So that's like the story I tried to tell myself because I feel like it's

“more optimistic. It's more fun. I don't know. Like when I say all that, what do you think?”

I think it's totally true, but I think I would bet. I'm not a huge better, but I would bet like a dollar. That in the right circumstance, if somebody said to you, hey, Ryan, there's no way be able to do that. You're like, really? I'm just saying motivation can come from a variety of places. Some people are more wired. I give it an example. Okay. I have two boys in a girl. Yeah. I can use a little bit more of that. I don't know, man. You think you're ready for that?

Do you think you have the skills needed? Should we practice? Do you sure you just want to give it? I can use that with my boys. I can't with my daughter. She shuts down. And that's just because some people work better off of positive affirmation. All this can work better off of Neo-Negative feedback for me. You know, again, coming from where I came found that my friends were like, you're weird. And there's no way you're going to make it because I didn't know much about

the seal community, but I know that almost nobody made it because those stats were out there for me to find. And my friends were like, yeah, I don't know, buddy. I hope you have a good plan

B. I just a log on the fire. You know, I never said anything, but I was like, okay, Roger that.

My thing is my soul motivation, but for me, I'm like, okay, we'll see. This is kind of, you just kind of stack that chip. No, it's just, it says it's not like it's something that I carry for a long time, but it might get me through the next week of hitting the gym when I don't want to. Yeah. You can find motivation everywhere. Yeah, I agree. What's the difference between motivation and discipline? I mean, the biggest one is you can outsource motivation.

Discipline, you can't. The internet is the worst best thing we've ever created is humans. It allows you and I to talk like this, separated by both time and space.

rest of the world, but what it actually does is give the rest of the world access to us.

And there's some really gnarly hurt broken people out there, and they oftentimes say,

“really gnarly hurt full broken things. And you have to be careful, right? You have to manage that.”

But if I'm having a day where I don't really feel like doing much, one of the benefits we'll just say at the social media ecosystem is I can find somebody out there kicking ass and look for something that might motivate me to bridge that gap, right? So to me, motivation is much more like the tide. It comes in and it goes out. And I think everybody is like that. You catch me on a high motivation day, standby. I'm going to be able to do a bunch of stuff. Catch me on

a low motivation day. I might be sleeping in a little bit. Might be supplementing with Doritos instead of creatine in the morning. You know, it's hard to say how bad it's going to go. You know, the orange fingers just mhm, mhm, mhm, mhm, mhm, mhm, mhm. We've all been there discipline is doing the things that you need to do regardless of the motivation level that you have. It is the path towards your goal and you have to take the next step. And it sucks. But the beauty is it builds with momentum.

And what do they say for a habit? It's 21 days of ingrained behavior, something like that. And that's the momentum that builds with that. I mean, a dietary shift or a new workout protocol or say you're a psychopath and you want to wake up at five in the morning and cold plunge. Well, day one, probably going to suck. And if it's the cold plunger early wake up, I'm just going to say that's going to suck at day five, hundred, but whatever. You'll probably physiologically

or psychologically be more adapted to it as you get going. But the first few days are difficult.

But if you can stay on that, the momentum builds. And then if you have some momentum going, your motivation is probably going to tend to be higher because you're seeing the fruits of your labor and it can all kind of cycle and build. But they're very, very different things. One is outsourcible. The other isn't. What do you do to somebody? Let's say they're not as disciplined as you. If they're honest enough with themselves, they can say they're hitting the

snooze button too much or they're not doing the things that they know they need to do. It's a

“discipline problem, a discipline issue. What are ways to help somebody become more disciplined?”

I'd say wind small battles as opposed to trying to win the war in one fell swoop. If you really want to set yourself up for failure, say somebody can identify 12 or 10 things. This news button, the diet. They're not working out enough. If you try to overnight attack those 12 things, there are certainly examples of people that have been able to do that. But I'd say they're largely anomalous and I don't know how well that

scales. What you can find though is let's say it may be pick one for a week and start to make a positive improvement there. I would say micro battles leading to the victory, the strategic level. You're going to win the war via the micro battles. As opposed to trying to just nuke everything overnight and just drastically change who you are. The success rate in a whole man, they're drastically different. Small battles. Yeah, stock days, right? The power

of complaining is real. It just takes time and you got to be consistent. I read a, you're at a speaking event and you ask the room, you know, who here is a leader? And only, by the way, I read, if this is a true, just tell me I read on the internet. You had speaking about you asked the room, who here is a leader and only half of the hands in the room went up and you said, well, that's a problem. Can you tell me more about why it's a problem that only half of the hands

in the room went up? At a baseline level, if you don't at least think of yourself as a leader,

you are never going to step into a leadership void because you are telling yourself that you

are not the person, you are not qualified, you're not capable. I asked this question yesterday. It's uncommon to get half of a crowd to raise their hand. Yesterday was about two thirds, but a third of the people didn't raise their hand. At this point now, I have canvas the audiences enough and there are largely the same answers. I'm the newest person. I don't have enough experience. I don't have the job title associated with what I would consider to be a leadership role. I don't

know the office, the parking space, fill in the blank. And then there's the other category and that's the person that is regardless of what you ask them. They're not going to participate in the evolution, so they just don't like raising their hand. So we have to pull them out. They're in every audience too. You can say, hey, do you like breathing air? And they're just like, muck, oh, so, okay, you don't want to participate. I respect it. So we're just going to skip because

“you are now, I have to take you out of the data set pool. But most of the time, that's what it is.”

It's time on the job. We'll call it ranked title position. The things that people believe are the metrics of leadership. They're not, they're not at all. And to me, I've tried to view leadership much more like the process that you go through to get your driver's license. You find a mentor. They really crawl, walk, run. They explain the vehicle, the switches, the gauges, the pedals, all this stuff. Probably from those people, parking lot, then a country road, then a city road, then eventually

that the Millennium Falcon goes. And then, you know, 10 days after your license to like, how about anybody ever drive that slow? Point being, you don't just show up at the DMV and say,

hey, I'm kind of a game time player. I've never been in the car, but I'm ready for the test.

But people treat leadership like that. They start thinking about themselves as a leader after they get the job. Or after they get the title. And that's going to give you the same result as going up to the DMV window and challenging the test without having prepared yourself and knowing how to drive a car. You think you're still in the timeline long enough, you're going to fail. But you don't have to. Every interaction that you have

is an opportunity to practice the leadership characteristics that you want to have when you achieve that role. But that will never happen if you can't at least raise your hand and say, I consider myself to be a leader. That's the easy part. The hard part is now act as if and start

practicing all day every day. What are ways you can practice? I mean, you don't even have to

be of an organization. I would say interpersonal skills. Are you clear and concise? Can you maintain control of your emotions and talk objectively instead of emotionally? Can you recognize when the

“emotions are getting the maybe perhaps the best of you? And you need to take a step back. Do your”

speech and actions align. I mean, every interaction you have is either going to be a micro deposit or a micro withdrawal of leadership capital. And you get to decide every single one. And once you view it like that, man, and again, it gets tough. And I'm not saying that I am saying that every interaction that you have with another human being is a chance to practice this, don't be a psychopath. Again, you know, you literally don't have to walk around 100% of every day. But keep this in the

back your mind. If you want to grow into the leader that you want to be, you have to get the reps in. And so those opportunities exist. Well, parenting is well too. I mean, there's no more important leadership role than being a parent. How do you talk with your kids? Do you tell your kids to do something that you're unwilling to do yourself? I mean, that's one of the the fastest ways to lose leadership capital. Are you setting the example? All of these things, they're just they're

out there and they're so volumous and they're so easy. But not if you are unwilling to at least consider yourself as a leader. And that's why that question's so important. Yeah. Even for like a person as their first day at work. And you're like, I'm not experienced enough. I don't have

the title on brand new. I'm an intern, whatever. I always tell them, go look around. Be really,

really curious. I promise you there are problems. There are issues. There are fires out there, run towards those things. Raise your hand. Maybe develop a coalition if you need to get the people and solve those problems or at least attempt. That's leadership. That's being a leader. You don't

“need a title. You have to, I think the willingness to go after the hard thing learn and iterate”

and try to solve those things. That's what leaders do. They have to be empowered to think that way though. You would think you would be intrinsic, but it's not. And if you are in a leadership all and so for the people who do raise their hand, which again, two thirds did yesterday, they usually follow up with, are you on a team or are you in a leadership role or do you have a team of people that works forward with you? And most of the time, they say, yes, I'm like, okay,

and I go right to what you were just talking about. I said, okay, the newest hire in your office probably isn't in this room, but if they were, how would they respond if they were asked that question? And if they wouldn't raise their hand, this is your opportunity to hold yourself accountable to the junior personnel to empower them with the knowledge and headspace that you expect them to ask like that and their trajectory will just absolutely take off. And the impact on the business

is very real, regardless of what your business is. You talk about making an audible. You said the

“original idea for this book didn't, I think this is the acknowledgements, didn't pan out. And as”

with most things in my life, I made an audible and submitted what I'd written for feedback to determine if there is any value and continuing on my own. Tell me more about that part of the book writing process. I got tricked into writing it. So a buddy of mine, I legitimately, I got tricked into writing this book. A buddy of mine named Mike Lover, who was a green brave, who he has a couple books. He came to me with the idea of let's write a combined book, like we'll just do Army Navy.

Well, pick some topics. And then what we'll do is we can talk about them from our experiences and kind of combine the two. So maybe it'll be bold and italic. We'll figure out a ways to people can tell who his voice is, whatever. And we set a target date that we were going to comment how some test chapters. And that day showed up and only one of us had written anything. So like, hey, man, WTF. And he was just laughing. He's like, yeah, I didn't write anything.

But he had found a guy who specializes in creating book pitches, which I'm thankful that these people exist because I don't have this level of creativity. He said, send it to the guy and see what he

exactly kind of what I wanted the book to be. And then he had found a book agent, which we gave that pitch deck to the agent. And then when I eventually published with St. Martin's press, but it wasn't my idea. The original idea was going to be a co-author book with my buddy literally just showed up and hadn't done the work. Well, part of your story and why I really wanted to talk to you is so I get sent to book skin numbers every week. And all the sudden, I see this

“drownproofing book show up at the top of the list and like, who's this guy? Like, what is this thing?”

And then I look, and I see this quote, okay, I want you to respond to this, which I'm sure you've been asked about a lot, but it's one of the best quotes ever. If the world went completely sideways from a zombie virus outbreak, Andy someone would be my top draft pick. That's Joe Rogan. What? Yeah. How did you get that? That's the best blurb I've ever seen. So I'm very fortunate to have known Joe for about 10 years. I consider him to be a personal

friend. Then I asked him if he would write a blurred for the book. That is two sentences pulled out of three incredibly personal generous paragraphs. Wow. What he wrote was unbelievable. And it would have been the entire front cover. There would have been no pictures. It just would have been which I don't think that sells. I don't know though. So they pulled out just one section. I mean,

“here's the thing with Joe though. If anybody's ever watched his show, I've been on his show a bunch”

of times at this point. I don't know if we're going to talk about dinosaurs, aliens, or politics.

You never know what you're going to get from the guy. And you might be talking about politics and then

he'll bring up dinosaurs that are smoking DMT and you're like, okay, this is your show. So we're going to talk about whatever you want to. I don't know what he means by that. I mean, I would like to believe that what he means is I'm a high agency person in his mind. If something goes wrong, I'm going to be the phone call that he makes, which I can appreciate that. But also, he's crazy. So I don't know what he meant by that. It's so good. It's so good. I'm glad you. I mean, it makes sense.

unique. Yeah, it is. I saw that I said, what this is just this is amazing. I love it. I love it. I am curious to have just a couple more questions. One of them is, so you've been around the highest performers in the world. You've worked alongside them. You are one of them. You interview them. You talk to them. Right? I'm curious from your perspective. When you think about the leaders who have sustained excellence over an extended period of time, what are some of the few things that they

have in common? I would say writ large mastery of the basics. They make no attempt to be flashy. They make no attempt to gain 50 yards at a time. They'll do one yard, 50 times in a row. Now don't keep you wrong. If they see an opportunity and they do they proper risk analysis and assessment, and they look at the residual risk associated and their man trained and equipped for it with the team that they have, they'll go big for sure. But if the plan's not working out, they'll take that

one yard, I'm and time and time again. They're very reflective in nature. I would say they have an equal mix of high IQ and high EQ, which I don't think is present in everyone. And that's okay. People are just different in them. It's so fascinating that here people are, we're all the same. It's like we're not all the same. I'm sorry. We have different psychological and physiological

abilities. You can always improve on what you have, but we can't sit here and say we all come

out of the box the same. We just don't. Those leaders, they are consistent, time and time and time again. Let's end personal. So go with me on this question. It's called the champagne question. It's one year from today. Okay. One year, exactly. And you are surrounded by the people you love and

“you guys are pop and bottles. You're celebrating like crazy. What are you celebrating?”

Being there with them? It's all matters. Family. I mean, I'd give people the choice. Would you rather have all the things that you think you want in life and be able to enjoy them by yourself and take none of them with you? Or would you rather be surrounded by people who truly love you for who you are, not who you're trying to portray yourself to be, and be able to spend time and celebrate with them? I'm taking the latter every time. Your dedication was to your kids and then

to your wife Leah. You wrote to her, thank you for seeing something in me when I was in my lowest moments. What does she see in you? You'd have to ask her that and she may have changed her mind now that we've been married for almost five years. So we're not going to ask her that question because we're terrified, combined of her answer, potentially. Dedicated the bookshelf. I did. I knew her before my divorce to the mother of my children, but I got to know her probably in the middle

of that process where I was questioning myself more than I ever had in my life. I never did anything

good enough man to be a father to my children, let alone a partner for anybody else. That's the period

“in time where her and I actually connected and to this day, I don't know what she saw on me, but”

I'm thankful that she saw something. Why were you questioning yourself so much? I went through a two year very contentious divorce during COVID. So there was a lot of isolation for my kids,

specifically. I'm always very broad about talking about the divorce because I have a platform that is

much larger size scope and scale than my ex-wife. And so I leave it at that and I respect the fact that there is a difference there. So it's just I could talk about basics, but never specifics. It was a soul-shattering experience. For anybody who's been through a divorce that's contentious like that, you're going to get reduced down to a number on an Excel spreadsheet and then people are going to argue about that number. What you're worth? What you deserve? God, it's so crushing.

It's just the worst. Well, I appreciate you being as open as you can about that and sharing so much, man. And I appreciate you above anything else, obviously, is the fact that you've decided

to dedicate so many years of your life to serving our country. I'm beyond grateful. Thank you

. I'm so grateful that people like you exist. That go out there on offense and protect us. So thank you for that very, very much. And thank you for writing this book. Drown proof. Eight life lessons to keep your head above water is really good. I'm glad you got tricked into doing it. I'm not surprised. It's sold so well. And it's continuing to sell well. New York times all the list. You did it all, man. That's-- Now I tell Mike, I'm like, hey, buddy,

“could have been part of a New York Times best seller. Should have done our homework, huh?”

Yeah. Now the publishers are coming back to you for book two already. I'm sure. And it's all you. They did. And I said no. I was like, no. Are you going to do another one? No. I said no immediately

to my agent. I mean, full disclosure, if your first book does well, your agent and their job is

going to be to try to get you the largest advance, humanly possible in your second book. Like, this is pulling the curtain back for people a little bit. Yeah. There is money in writing books. But I tell you what, it's far less than I think most people think. Unless you're like the Mel Robbins, Jaco Rolex. There's millions to be made there. But you see the sales numbers. The book sell to make the New York Times less far fewer than most people would estimate. You can make money.

I'm not saying you can't. If you hit the New York Times list, let me tell you, your phone's going to be ringing from your agent. And they're going to say, let's go ahead and picture second one. This is the potential advance that I can get you. I just said no. Because I'm not writing anything else unless I want to regard this if there's money associated with it or not. And when she was asking me what I wanted to write, I said, I have no idea. Because this is two days after

the book came out. So if you take it easy for a little bit. Yeah. You're still the boxer who just went 15 rounds. You need a little bit of time. You need a little bit of time. Yeah, give me like, let me go take this thing for a walk for a little bit. Yes. You know? Yes. Well, I'm grateful you wrote this one. I'm looking forward to the next one. It might take a while, but that's okay. And Andy, I would I would love to continue our dialogue as we both progress man. Please. Yeah,

the great. It is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club. If you are send me a note, Ryan at learningleadard.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation with Andy stump of you. Take aways from my notes. What you allow in your presence is your standard. I love Andy's core mantra. What you allow in your presence is your standard. And then high standards are like a, quote, finely sharpened blade. It can cut and both directions

the same trait that makes someone exceptional can also destroy them. We need to think about that. Andy talked about post dramatic growth. His reframe of post traumatic stress. The emphasis on what you build from heart experiences, not just what they cost you and how about the difference between

“motivation and discipline. Motivation can be outsourced. Discipline cannot. I think it's useful to”

think about how those are different and how we could become a more disciplined person that comes from us internally. And then when small battles. His philosophy on building discipline incrementally rather than overhauling everything at once. Let's win one small battle today. What could that be for you? Then how about seals versus team guys, individual achievement versus mission and collective success

the individuals. Once again, I want to say thank you so much for continuing to spread the message

“and being a team player and telling your friend or to hey, you should listen to this episode of”

the Learning Leadership with Andy Stump. I think he'll help you become a more effective leader

because you continue to do that and you'll also go to Spotify and Apple Podcasts and you

rate the show hopefully five stars. You subscribe to it. You write a thoughtful review by doing

all of that you are continually giving me the opportunity to do what I love and a daily basis

“and for that I will forever be grateful. Thank you so, so much talk to you soon. Can we?”

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