697: The Price of Becoming - The Compounding Practices of High Performance (My New Book is Now Available!). "Have a Plan. Work the Plan. Plan for the Unexpected."

- Welcome to the Learning Leaders Show.

“Presented by Insight Global, I am your host, Ryan Hawke.”

Thank you so much for being here. Go to learningleiter.com for show notes of this and all podcasts episodes go to learningleiter.com. Now onto tonight's special episode for the past 11 years.

I've been the one asking the questions. This one is different. I'm bringing in one of my friends. Dan Smith has spent years as my research assistant and editor

for the price of becoming. He read every word, every draft, and helped make a ton of edits to make the book a lot better. He knows the price of becoming as well as anyone alive, which made him the perfect person

to talk with me about it.

The book is out. Now this is launch week, launch week for books is everything it helps create positive momentum. During this episode, you'll hear Dan push me on things I don't normally talk about,

like the AI rabbit hole I fell into while writing it. How I actually structure my days around my family, what aggressively ambitious looks like in practice when you're also trying to be really present during the good old days. And whether the philosophy I've spent 11 years building

will actually work when you apply it to your life. Now if you've been a listener for a while, you know I believe in compounding. That small things done consistently over a long time. This book, it's my attempt to show you exactly how that works.

With the research, the stories and the honest reflection to back it all up, the price of becoming is out now.

“I think it could change your life for the better.”

If you're an eight or a nine who wants to be a 10, then buy the price of becoming right now. You can do it at learningleadard.com or directly from Amazon or wherever they sell books. Thank you so much for your support.

Now onto the night's episode with my friend Dan Smith. - I'm really curious how you started off the book. You have a start here section. And you talk about a coach who met very much to you, Terry Hepner.

Reading that opening section, I could feel the heat of the turf. You put the reader right there. You're in the heat of battle. You're a quarterback at Miami University.

And you talk about Coach Hepner. And you pull a quote that he said. He says, "Have a plan, work the plan, and plan for the unexpected." And so what I'm curious to know is what that quote meant to you

then and what that quote means to you now in the difference between those two things. - Yeah, that's a really good place to start. I love Coach Hep. We had a rocky relationship

because as the story progresses, I eventually go on to be told by him that the other quarterback adds more value to the team than I did, which is very hard for a 19-year-old, very arrogant punk to hear, but needed.

As far as have a plan, work the plan planned for the unexpected. At the time, I don't know how you were when you were 19,

but I didn't always take in the messages as well as I should,

especially something as useful as that. But it's imprinted on all of our minds. I still speak with Miami teammates. In fact, Mike Bath, who was the starting quarterback when I got to Miami, just posted about

have a plan, worked a plan, plan free, unexpected, as well as the don't quit poem that I closed the book with. And so it's cool how that stuff is stuck with us, even though it's been decades since we played for him. I think at the time what it meant to me

was that let's practice hard, let's read the game plan, let's make sure we're prepared. And then when the game starts, you're going to get punched in the face, and you got to be willing to react.

Now, I think if it is, it's just a mode of operation for life. Planning is useful. It's good to think about what I want to do, how I want to go about doing it. Then I have to take action on that plan, right?

Have a plan, work the plan, go and actually do the thing.

“But life is really about the adverse moments,”

knowing that you're going to get knocked down, knowing that adversity's going to strike, and thinking about how I'm going to respond when it does, and being prepared for that. So, have a plan, work the plan plan for the unexpected.

It was posted up in our locker room. He said it every single day. I still think about it every day to this day, and it's super, super helpful. - Yeah, I mean, I was the same way when I was 19.

I think a lot of the advice or things that mentors tried to beat into my head didn't really take.

Like, it started as a very tactical thing

that you thought about. Like, I'm a quarterback, I'm doing this thing. I have to respond in a game, and then as you got older, it's sort of broadened into more of a life philosophy. So, I'm interested in this book

'cause this book to me kind of strikes me like a philosophy book. It's very broad, right? I mean, a lot of the work that you've been doing up into this point of sort of culminating in this statement

of like how to be a person. Do you think that's a fair assessment of what you were trying to do in the book? Because you're not just talking about leadership, you're not just talking about excellence,

you're kind of talking about how to be as a person, like how to be excellent in general. - Yeah, it's stemmed from a few things. One of them is at the end of Keynotes. You do Q&A often.

And one of the common questions, I learned it from John Maxwell. He said, hey, pay attention to the questions you get during the Q&A sessions of your Keynotes speeches. There's a lot of gold in there.

And so I would do that. I would take down the notes. I would write a quick note to myself,

“what are people asking me after I give these talks?”

And one of them was, what's the quicker hack? What's the thing I can do right now to change my life? Like, what can I implement right now that will be transformative? That's the quick hack type thing.

We all want the short answer. We all want the one thing I can change that will change everything.

And I would always give these answers

that I would look at their body language. And they would go like this. Their shoulders would slump and they would be bummed out. You get every time. Because as you know, right, you helped with this thing.

A ton, there is no one thing. There is no hack. It's about the power of compounding. The other people I learned from Warren Buffett in Charlie Munger, they talk about the power

of compounding when it comes to business and investing and money. And this is about the power of compounding when it comes to your life. Your habits, your routines, your rituals, what you're willing to do day after day after day.

And are you willing to stack days for decades? Yeah. And as you know, most people are not willing to do that. I use words like consistency, dependability, reliability. Literally the least sexy words of all time,

especially today. They don't want to hear about being dependable or reliable or just be consistent for a decade. Nobody wants to hear that.

“And so that's why I also said this book is for people”

who are eights and nines, you know, people like you, people that are already doing really, really well, but they still desire to get a little bit better, a little bit better, a little bit better. And I think it can tactically help people do that

in addition to being kind of a philosophy book at the same time. So that's what I'm probably most proud of as we got both of those things here. I want to rewind just a little bit

when you talk about the body language, when you have those conversations with people and they kind of slumped and they got disappointed. Do you think that was a reaction to the intensity that you brought to your passion and saying,

like, look, here's what it's going to take?

Or was it, was it the unsexyness? Was it like you talk about in the book, Paul Ray Bill taking 100 shots a day? Is it the consistency part you think people are shying away from, or is it the intensity?

Or do you think it's a little bit of both? It's probably a bit of both. It's a really good way to think about it. Because it's funny right before we connected, I was speaking with someone who is considering

hiring our team to work with their leaders. It's a big company. And they're going to have us come out and do like a first session with them. And one of the people has already seen us do our work.

And I asked her, I said, are you seeing the way we operate? Like you've seen how hard we go and how we're really willing to push on people. Do you think your people can handle that?

“And she said, yes, that's why we're here.”

That's why we're having this call. That's why we want you to work with our team. So I think there are some people, though, Dan, and I've had, I remember, did a speech down south. And I was kind of doing the, this is what I do,

who take the stairs, hard core stuff. And this one guy was like, dude, why is this serious? Why is this so hard? Life doesn't have to be that way. And to a certain extent, I'm like, yeah, you know, good for him.

That's fine, you're right. Life doesn't have to be that way. I think some people think, I think with part of the reason why I love the way you are is you take your work really seriously, research assistant, editor, writer.

But you don't take yourself that seriously. And I try to be that way, too. You know, I'm saying, I think the best people I want to be around, they take their work and they go super hard and they get after it.

But they also realize, like, I'm just the dude, trying to do my best, trying to help people,

let's make some funny videos.

“And so I think part of it is not everybody wants to be”

that hard core when it comes to their work, not everybody wants to get up and get after it every single day. And so they'd rather find the quicker hack, the one quick thing I can do to change my life as opposed to thinking about being consistent every day for decades.

- Man, that's such a good point. I like how you separated it out. Your work, taking your work seriously, but not taking yourself seriously. Because when I think of in my mind,

I don't know how you would react to this. When I think of interacting with somebody who takes themselves very seriously, that doesn't sound very fun. But when I think about interacting with someone who takes

their work very seriously, all of a sudden, the possibility of sort of light up.

So can you talk a little bit more about that dynamic,

like taking your work seriously without necessarily taking yourself seriously? Because I do think this connects to some key elements in the book. - Yeah, well, I mean, that's a great way of phrasing it

to think of the people that you enjoy being around. I love being around. Get after it, truth tellers, who are aggressively ambitious when it comes to their life's work, when it comes to the thing that they're doing.

They want to leave a positive dent in the world with the work that they're doing. At the same time, I want to be able to joke with them to make fun of them, to then make fun of me. My guys right now, you can see me on Zoom.

I have like a nice tan. They're gonna make fun of the fact that I did a spray tan to look better on this Zoom because I think it's more attractive. It's more appealing.

And I'll make you wanna actually watch the video. They make fun of me about that almost every single day. And I love them. You gotta have this willingness to laugh with people to make fun of yourself to not take yourself so seriously.

But when it's time for us to get to work and what we're gonna go stand up in front of a group and help them, we are deadly serious about leaving them better than we found them, about helping them, about serving them.

That is very, very real. But in between, in the brakes, at lunch, beforehand, afterwards, oh yeah, we're gonna be bushing balls. We're gonna be joking, we're gonna be having a good time. We're gonna be making fun of each other.

That's taking the work very seriously and what we try to do. But then when it comes to ourselves, like dude, come on.

“You're just a guy, you spray tan, your pants don't fit, right?”

Whatever, like that's the, I think the part that you gotta have some fun with it. - Yeah, you talk in the book about the importance of commitment, like having commitments.

What I like about that is you're taking the individual consciousness of a person very seriously. Like that's something, if you spend your life doing something, your life matters, it's worth something, it's valuable. But if you take a kind of selfish pride in that,

it doesn't really lead anywhere. But you talk about the importance of not dabbling in the book, not dabbling. And so drill down on that just a little bit because it's sort of the nucleus, I think,

of the center of your book where you really talk about when life gives you these choices, like these opportunities to commit to something, it's really important that you do commit. - Optionality is overrated.

Ed Latamore was down with us in Scottsdale at our Gross Summit a couple years ago. And I was interviewing him as like a surprise live podcast. He used this phrase that really stuck with me. He said, I'm trying to beef up my obituary.

I said beef up your obituary, that's kind of cool. Kind of cool. How do you beef up your obituary? - That sounds so metal. - Done it?

- He's a boxer. He's a physicist, he plays chess like he's a Renaissance man. And he's like, I'm gonna beef up my obituary, yes. How do you do that, and he goes, I'm not going to dabble.

“I didn't just dabble, that's what they're gonna say about me.”

So what do you mean, you do do a lot of different things because yeah, but when I decide to do something, I commit with everything I have. And I love that idea. It's funny, not to go off in a tangent,

but I love studying hawks the bird. Dan, I don't know, maybe you looked in this. Have you looked into what a hawk does, like how they live? - No. - So they're really good at gliding and flying up high.

They have eyesight, that's eight times better than you and I have. Eight times better than humans.

And so what a hawk does is it's always noticing.

It's always observing the world as it's gliding and flying around. But once it sees something that it wants, usually something to eat, it commits with everything it has and gives everything it's got to go get that thing. And so to me, that's how I wanna live my life

is I wanna be very observant of the world, very professional, noticeer of things. But once I see an opportunity, a good opportunity, I'm gonna commit with everything I've got

Right a book, host a podcast, give a speech,

write an email newsletter, whatever the thing is. It's either 100 or it's zero. So there are no 70s or 80% on anything. It's I'm giving 100% maximum effort. Like we just talked about,

you're gonna come to our book launch party. The amount of time and effort Miranda and I are putting into this book launch party is insane. If anybody actually looked at the tiniest of details, I'm talking garnishes of the drinks

that we are micromanaging this thing to death. But we're not gonna dabble with this book launch party. We're committing everything we got to that night to being awesome for our guests. You'll see the detail.

And that's everything that I wanna do with my life. It's either 100 and get after it and go hard and make it excellent or it's zero. We're not gonna do it.

“And so I think if you're gonna have a party,”

if you're gonna write a book,

if you're gonna host the podcast, if you're gonna be the CEO of a company, give it 100 and fully commit and do not dabble or don't do it. So I'm so interested in kind of the paradigm you laid out there.

So, 'cause I think what you're saying, a lot of people could benefit from understanding the psychology of how you make that decision. 'Cause like you said, optionality, that's sort of the modus operandi we're all in.

I mean, we live in a world with infinite possibility and choices. So in Ryan Hawks' mind, before you make that descent and you commit 100%, what's happening? Are you thinking through like a decision tree?

Is it just like the hairs on the back of your next stand-up? Like what's happening? - To me, it's like I'm gonna have conversations with the people on closest to the important people in my lives. I'm gonna call my dad, right?

I'm gonna talk a lot with Miranda, before we make big decisions. Like leaving corporate America, big decision, writing a book. I'm gonna speak with luckily now because of the podcast and doing 700 of these things,

I've been able to develop real friendships and relationships with people who are literally making a positive dent in the world and a wide variety of areas.

“And so I think having conversations with people”

who have done big things or maybe had to make big decisions in their lives, I'm fortunate to get a chance to talk with lots of them. And I speak with them off the record type, very specific questions, I will send them a text.

Can we talk about this and then have these kind of long conversations? So it's really, I lean on people who are in my life who I think are really good at making specific decisions about depending on what the thing is and then have those conversations

and then utilize a gut instinct and make the call. So to me, it's really about my who. It's about those people around me that I lean on, again, depending on what that thing is, it's been very helpful to have a wide variety of people

that I trust that I can go to when I got to make a big call. - So it's not all you, so that's interesting. So you're really, it's kind of like you have a mega mind. You know, like you have a network of people

that contribute to the way that you think and you have a willingness and a humility to accept their input. Do you ever come up against a disagreement with one of those people or maybe multiple

and how do you know whether or not you're making the right decision if there is a disagreement? - Yeah, sometimes somebody just doesn't have, they're doing something that just is just so different from what I'm doing that they don't have

the full picture or the information or the knowledge set based on what I'm doing. So maybe I'll take a piece of their advice or I'll take a piece from their experience but then there are other parts,

although they'll offer up ideas where it doesn't make any sense because they don't fully grasp it or have that understanding because we're all living different lives,

different experiences, we have different businesses, different things that are happening.

“So I think it's just like trying my best”

to get the bits and pieces the best of the best. It's funny, this makes me think of when I was brand new at Lexus Nexus which is where you and I met years ago. I was brand new sales rep in Rex Caswell,

the guy who hired me, right? He only hired me because he was friends with my dad so it's kind of a nepotism hire. But I was really motivated to prove him right but one of the things that Rex had me do

that I'm still so grateful for is,

I never had a real job before.

He said, "Hey, I'm gonna have you sit with the 10 best sales reps from those stack rankings over the past year, sit with the 10 best ones." And I'm gonna help you create questions

and you're gonna interview them, then you're gonna listen to their calls, listen to the prospective customers, listen to them, you're gonna literally plug in,

sit in their cubicles, in addition to these interviews. And so at the end of those 10 interviews and those sessions sitting and listening with them, I had like a full book at what it meant

to be an excellent sales rep at Lexus Nexus. And then I try to take bits and pieces, not everything, but bits and pieces from each of those 10 people and then mash it together with my own personality and then I eventually would find my own voice.

And so I try to do the same thing today, it's take bits and pieces from a wide variety

get after it type people,

then trust some of the intuition and gut instinct that I've developed over the past few decades to then make the right call, or adjust if I made the wrong call and then I need to iterate on that.

So I take from those earlier days of learning from others and then trying to understand what are the useful things as well as how do I inject my own kind of gut, my own instinct, my own personality with that

to then make the next call.

“- I just think what you're saying so important”

because I don't know about you, but what I talk to younger people in their 20s and kind of in college, they really struggle with interpersonal relationships and just maintaining those,

whether it was going through COVID, you know, in having their school kind of cut off from them

or whether it's like a over-investment

in social media values rather than like flesh and blood people that they can really connect with and have a real emotional connection with. And if you were to position this advice to that group of people, the up-and-comers,

the people that are coming out of college right now, how to find those people, those key people that are going to become so important for how you develop yourself and your career. Do you tell 'em, you know, take your head out of your phone,

like put the screen away, you'd let maybe utilize social media in a different way. How would you frame that for someone who's coming up in their 20s? - Yeah, I mean, I know this is apparent.

“So I definitely would not try to tell 'em”

to not use social media because they would roll their eyes and they would not listen to anything I would say after that. We've had these conversations.

I would say if you're going to use those tools,

use them to create in-person relationships, to create the starting point to go meet somebody, to actually rub shoulders with people, to collide with curious people in real life. You know, one of the cool things about this,

I was thinking about how my daughters found their roommates when they're going to college. And if you talk to any person who's just graduating high school, all of 'em have done it the same way. Each of the universities have these like class of,

whatever the class is, and you then sign up to follow that, a sign-up's probably like a boomer away of saying that, but you follow that. If through that, you meet others who are incoming freshmen. So everybody the way they found their roommate

is from Instagram. I think that's awesome. Like I think it's a great use. And you see the person's whole history, you see what they're all about,

you DM with a few of 'em, you eventually find your roommate that way and that's how all these kids have found 'em. So I think that's a great use of the tool. But yeah, the advice I would say is like try to use those tools

to create in person moments, time to actually connect with people, organize your own dinners, your own meetups, your own coffees, whatever the thing is, try to then just go meet people in person.

'Cause that's, I think people want that more now than ever. Like, I don't know if you've been looking at the prices of concert tickets. These artists are selling out massive spaces that I don't think you have an and the resell value

on these tickets. I've been getting some of our out of control because I think people are yearning so much to be together in person experiencing something cool with other people.

I think that's good, that's good. And so hopefully that's a good sign for younger people that they want to be together

“with each other 'cause I think that's what we all need.”

- Yeah, so pivoting a little bit but it's tying into what you're saying about the tools that we are confronted with. So you don't bring up AI in the book at all, which I think is to the book's credit, (laughs)

but your book is very focused on the development of human psychology, pushing yourself being uncomfortable so that your brain can create new neural pathways and you can expand your horizon of what you're capable of doing. I don't know if you've seen this recently,

but staying on the theme of young people at these commencement addresses with these older boomer executives, I don't know if you saw the one with Eric Schmidt - Were they boomed?

- Were they boomed? - Yeah. - Right and it's this whole issue of the younger generation having very different feelings about the threat that AI poses to their development.

And the reason I think it connects with your book is you're so focused on self development. And I'm interested in your thoughts behind what AI represents for the, maybe the younger generation and maybe even our generation of,

if I'm continually focus on developing myself as a person, what does AI either contribute to that or take away from that? You know, if I'm optimizing and optimizing at any point can anthropic or an open AI just come

and make all of that work null and void because their new model does exactly what I've been working toward, what are your thoughts on that? - So this is like really nuanced because I use those tools every day

as a thought partner, as a research assistant,

they're only gonna get better, I would assume. To say like act like they don't exist and don't use them would be stupid,

“you should learn how to best utilize a technology”

so that it benefits you now.

The problem is if you start outsourcing your thinking,

if you have it right for you, that is so stupid, if you post AI Slop on LinkedIn, I would like, there's AI Slop on LinkedIn or are you sure? - I will do whatever I can to unfollow you to have you not be a part of my life.

I do not want any part of all the AI Slop on LinkedIn. It will hurt you so much if you wanna get a good job if you're gonna post AI Slop on LinkedIn and other places. So I would push hard against that. So understand how can it help you make you better?

Now remember though, if you wanna get it like, let's say you wanna get a good job or work for a good company. What is the number one thing you need to do, whether AI is involved or not? You need to add value to people's lives.

You need to solve problems. You need to make your boss's life better. That's ultimately your job, especially for entry-level jobs, but really any job. What is your job?

Add value to other people's lives, make your boss's life better. That's it. So whatever tools, the way you gotta do it, do that, learn the technology of today,

learn the technology of tomorrow, so that you can add value to other people's lives. I learned this from Coach Heppner when I was 19 years old, and he sat me down with the other guy, and he pointed to both of us and he said Ryan,

he adds more value to our team than you do. He gives us a better chance to win than you do. That's why he's gonna play. And so it's an incredibly lucky lesson to learn at a young age of what is my job in life?

It's to add value to other people's lives to make their lives better. You can do that in a lot of ways, but thinking of my number one mission in goal, if I continually add value to other people's lives,

good things seem to happen for my business, for my life, both personal and professional. And so regardless of AI or not, that's your job.

“And I think if you focus on that every day,”

and you have a prompt at the end of the day that says, what did I do today to add value to other people's lives, and you're able to answer that with specifics every single day, and you stack day after day for a long time,

I'm betting on you. I'm gonna bet on you to have a really great fulfilling life and career versus if you think you're entitled, or you think you're owed something, I'm not betting on you, that's not typically how it works.

- Yeah, I mean, I agree with everything you're saying, and the reason I wanted to focus on this area is 'cause recently I've heard a lot of discussion in the Chris Williamson as our client, they had a podcast recently where they talked about AI

is a metaphor, kind of like an exoskeleton that you put on almost like an Iron Man suit. Like you can fly higher with it, you can run faster with it. But the danger is that inside that suit, your body can atrophy, 'cause the muscles that you're using,

it's not your muscle, right? It's something else. And so what I'm curious to know is in your usage of AI personally, how you make sure that you're not sacrificing your personal growth in development,

even in the neuroplasticity of your brain, 'cause in the book you talk about stretching yourself, you talk about being uncomfortable, and making sure you stay uncomfortable even while you're using AI, 'cause AI,

its goal is to create kind of a frictionless environment. - Oh, there's a problem, blah, blah, blah, I'm just a prompt, the connection between the problem

and the solution is like, I'm the little joint in the middle

of that, and I just put my little prompt in there. But the way you're describing it seems very different. It seems like you have a mentality of still making yourself uncomfortable, still getting after it. And AI fits into that maybe in a different way,

so I'd like to hear even more thoughts from you on that,

“because I think a lot of people could benefit from it.”

- Part of why I'm so anti outsourcing or thinking is because I actually did it myself. - I was very hesitant to say this, but I'll share it just because I would rather be as fully transparent.

So if you look at the section titled, "Be a Pro", I originally posted that whole thought on LinkedIn. It's kind of AI-slop. Now, some of the original idea stuff is mine, but it's heavily influenced by cloud.

And I got like this initial huge rush of feeling good, because it went really well on LinkedIn when I posted it. And a lot of people talk, it actually one of the few things on Twitter that people were DMing me that I really respect,

but I do, that's amazing, I love that.

So I felt the rush of what you can get with the tools help in a big way, and so I realized, oh no, I didn't do all of the necessary work, and yet I got these big time rewards. Now, that was like a year ago.

It's not this, it's that talking in threes, M-dashes, all that stuff, right, it's got all that kind of stuff in there.

“And so it scared me, honestly, scared me,”

'cause I was getting some of the rewards without doing all of the work. And so I almost felt like my own brain atrophying in that moment, because I wasn't working it as hard as it needs to be worked.

And you even notice, like with some of the notes, you send over, like, dude, be careful with the AI, and you're like, dude, I didn't use AI. That's how I'm very, very, like, a representative of this stuff,

because I so badly don't want that out there. So, now it's completely different.

I will write my own sloppy, terrible first draft.

And then maybe even do a second draft on my own. And then I will upload it, and like, say, hey, how can you make sure grammar is all right? But I don't want it to completely change how I think. I think the messiness of getting those thoughts

out of your head onto the page initially, do not outsource that part. You gotta do that first part. I think on your own, and maybe even the second and third,

“and then maybe if you want to clean up a little bit,”

you get some help, but I felt it. I felt how good it can feel to have it produce its thing. And you're like, oh yeah, that's pretty good. Like, it's not that bad, it's not bad. And then other people seem to like it, too,

and that's dangerous, that's very dangerous. And I think now, though, again, we're a year later, now everyone can notice it. Like, everyone can see when you didn't write it. We see it every day.

And so now, I don't think that's going to work as well, unless the tools get a lot better. Because it's pretty sloppy out there now, and also it's very dangerous for you to walk into the weight room, look around,

and then think like you're going to get muscles without lifting. You gotta go move the weights, too. I think that's the big part of when it comes to writing and creativity in how AI can affect that. Oh, man, gosh, you hit on so many good things.

And I appreciate you sharing because it's like, everything you described is kind of like a microcosm of the score that matters a little bit. You're talking about the external validation versus what you get as a person and being wary of external validation,

because it's only indicative really of people's perception of you. It's not really indicative of the growth that's happening within you. And you end the book. I don't want to get to the end of the book before we get there. Because you end the book very movingly talking about

the internal things that happen to you as a person and making this commitment.

“It's an open-ended commitment, which is what I think is unique.”

This open-ended commitment to always be learning

and always be growing and being OK with some of the unknowns there. Yeah, you end the book talking about that the price of becoming is just always something you're paying. And you always just have to be willing to pay that. And that's where I go back to this being kind of like a philosophy book.

It's a very specific way of looking at the world. And what you just described about feeling the pressures of the external validation. But also because we're all learning this in real time. So I'm very interested in that. But another thing, it seems like books kind of go in cycles in your space.

Sort of the leadership, the excellence. Is it not your space? Well, in what you're very much focused on, right? It's like your niche of like helping businesses and leaders. It seems like it goes in cycles.

You see trends come and go, I guess, is what I'm saying. So David Goggins is a great example of someone who's just like, almost takes getting after it to like an extreme that very few people do. Right. And then the Cheryl Sandbergs of like Lean In, Lean In to Work.

And then you see kind of reactions percolating against that. Like I'm sure you've read Cal Newport, slow productivity. His research on people who have accomplished a lot in life. Charles Dickens, Charles Darwin.

They spent huge portions of time basically sitting around doing nothing.

And then they would have extreme moments in their life or times in their life. Would they would work basically 24 hours a day to get something done. So I'm curious in your experience, you've been doing this for over a decade now. The push and pull that people feel with the commitments they should have in work versus their life. Do you buy that dynamic?

Or do you think that the work life thing is a full stake out of me? And there's a different way of thinking about it. I think there are different chapters depending on where you're at. Your family situation. For example, my current chapter, as you know, like I part of how we got reconnected,

was I was shaperoning a school field trip for my daughter Charlie at the bowling alley. And just so happened to get be paired with your wife who was doing the same thing that day. And I was like, I need to talk to Dan and then boom, we reconnect and like, dude, I need some help with this book and it was way early days. So my point is I'm going to chapter now of realizing I'm in the good old days as a dad.

With that said, I also in my prime earning years have built something special that people

“like that creates insane opportunities that I never would have imagined.”

So my version of that and this to get really practical is I need to work really hard when my family is asleep or when they're at school. Yeah, so I have meetings at eight o'clock ever because Charlie gets on the bus at 806. I put on the bus every day Charlie gets off the bus or I go to school. I've seen you there picking up, you know, right around, like a little bit before four

clock. Right? I like to do that Miranda does that sometimes too or if she rides the bus, then, you know, it's right around that same time. So those are my hours and in those hours, I'm going to work incredibly hard.

Occasionally, though, I will be a chaperone on a field trip and not work that day too. And so my thing is I get up really early. I do nine, you know, you got emails and texts from me, what, four, thirty, five o'clock. So you probably got a no write at the number of texts and emails you got for me at four, forty, five, five o'clock, working on this book.

So when they sleep and when they're at school. The side of those hours, I try not to work or at least not work that much so that I'm with them present during the good old days, which are right now. And then occasionally, you know, I travel, I'll go give a speech, I will fly in, I push

to the limit, though, sometimes I fly in right before I go on stage and I always leave immediately

after I'm done. That hey, come have dinner, do that. I don't do any of that. I go, I do the work, you know, I'll build relationships with them other ways, but I go, I do the work and I come home.

That's part of work. No dad has got to go, you know, pay the bills and that's like go get on a stage or something like that.

“So that's what I try to do, you know, whatever balance integration, whatever words you”

want to use, my thing is, hey, when they're sleeping, get after it, hey, when they're at school, get after it. The other times, try my best to be as present as possible. I didn't realize that you and I have the exact same mentality here because I try to start my day very early as early as I can.

It's funny that you would respond so much almost immediately at these crazy hours, because other people sometimes I will still send in the text or the note at those crazy hours because I don't want to forget. And so I just send it and maybe they're disrespectful, but usually there's a very delayed response.

It was you. It was kind of like immediately. I was up early.

No, I always get up early and I start my day early.

I get into the office early and I try to end early for literally the exact reason you said, which is, I want to spend time with my kids and it's important to me, but I also take my work incredibly seriously. And so, how do you balance those things, right? Yeah.

When it's go time, it's on us as leaders who have high standards and believe in excellence is to get after it as hard as you can go during those hours. Not just kind of like, oh, I'm going to do some work here and there all the time. That's not how it works. It's like when it's go time, we got to go man, like we got to go as hard as we can go.

And that could be at random hours, but to me, it's like, okay, good old days, let's make the most of these things. Because I've talked to so many dads, especially whose kids are gone. They're in college or they're beyond that. Almost all of them say the exact same thing.

One goes by so fast and two, like, I wish I had more of those days. I am so jealous of you that you have those days where your kids are still in the house and doing that stuff. And so, okay, I want to make the most of it. So my summer schedule is completely different than fall and winter and spring because

they're out of school. That doesn't mean I don't work. I certainly do, but it definitely changes things when the pool is open and there's opportunities to be outside with my family, I try to do those more. It's so important for people to hear you say that.

We can't talk about kids too much because I'll get emotional, but yeah, I really resonate

with what you're saying, just being there for them because you'll never get these days

back.

“Have you ever heard of Cal Newport's concept of performative productivity?”

Say more. So basically, he has this idea that there's these metrics that people informally use in a corporate setting. Well, later you in the office, am I seeing you around versus the actual- Crazy.

Doesn't equal productive. Exactly. Yeah. Have you interacted with those ideas much in your own mind and just- I love Cal.

It's funny. So I just got a note from his publisher like he's got another one coming out because Cal writes his books and then he disappears, no social media, as you know, he's completely gone. He will, though, do podcasts to promote his book and then he'll disappear again. So it is his name literally popped up yesterday from them about the next one.

So I love that style. Now, it helps that he's brilliant. I think he's brilliant. In addition to being really kind and generous and curious and thoughtful. But yeah, to me, the dumber version of that for people like me is when it's time to get

after it and work, that is your job is to get after it and work really, really hard during those hours. And for me, I own my own business.

It's all for me. I'm in my studio here by myself. So when it's go time, like, there's no point in just punching in the clock or showing up here. Nobody knows if I'm here or not.

So I guess I'm so out of that world of, do I have to punch the clock corporate America type stuff where I was in before? But yeah, I would hope that people would design businesses and companies where it's like, hey, when it's go time, get after it and outside of that, then go do your thing or whatever it is that you want to do with your family.

But I don't know. Probably not the best to speak about that when it comes to performing or looking busy. I haven't had to do that for a really long time. You've made this comment a couple of times talking about you're slightly modifying a quote from Steve Jobs.

And I've heard you say this before. Steve Jobs famously said, making a dent in the world, he wanted to make a dent in the world. And you put an interesting little caveat into this quote saying you want to make a positive dent in the world.

“How do you know you're making a positive dent in the world rather than just a dent?”

When I get an email from a farmer in Iowa who said, our Monday evening family conversations are about your podcast. When I talk to people on the side of the stage and they're crying and they've implemented stuff from the podcast. They've read the books and then they've had it brought home even more from a keynote speech.

It's literally one at a time, Dan, and it's the best. The one at a time moments where you've done something that has been literally transformational, which by definition, you've helped transform someone, which means you've changed them for the better. When you see those tears and people's eyes, when you read those emails, it's emotionally

even thinking about those things. There's nothing better because that's ultimately what I'm trying to do, right? I want people to have high standards. I want to inspire people to like go bigger, try to leave their own positive dent. And so, yeah, to me, it's all about other people.

When you think about your life's purpose, it has to involve other people. It has to. That's the only way. The impact we make.

I also think one of my core values is to be grateful, to be thankful, the critical behavior

to match that for me, at least, is to leave it better. I've said longer, leave people, places and things better than I found them, the old Girl Scout Rule. And that's what I'm trying really, really hard to do.

“I think that's what a positive dent is, is you walked into a space to work with a group”

and you left them better. You walked in the park and somebody put their trash on the ground and you picked it up into it away. You left the park better. Whatever it is, thinking of ways to leave people, places and things better than you

found them. I think that's how you make that positive dent, literally one person at a time, and it's the best. It's the juice, man. It's really what it's all about.

Yeah. Have you ever heard of Fritz Hobber? No. Fritz Hobber was a, this is going to sound like, I'm not engaging with what you just said. It took way too long by the way, dude, for you to bring up some weirdo that I know you

read, that I'm sure you're going to bring it home. I watched all your Instagram videos and I love them so much because I'm learning about people

I've never heard of and all these books in history.

So anyway, go ahead. Fritz, say it again. Fritz Hobber. Fritz Hobber. Fritz Hobber.

“And the reason I bring him up is he's a tragedy of history, but somebody that I think is a good”

sort of illustration of what you're talking about, leaving a positive dent versus just leaving a dent. So Fritz Hobber was the inventor of Zyclon A. Do you know what Zyclon A is? Zyclon A is a pesticide that they put on crops. It kind of had like a pungent smell to it. But because of Fritz Hobber's work, this would have been around the time of World War II.

And he was a German scientist, so maybe see where I'm going with this. But he invented a pesticide that increased agricultural production that fed tens of millions of people. So tens of millions of people benefited from his research that you could increase crop production because of these pesticides.

Zyclon B was the gas that killed millions of Jews in the Holocaust. And it was also a product of his invention. You want the Nobel Prize? He did it both.

Well, basically, the second was a derivative of the first, right?

Was he aware of that second part or no? He was aware, but he wasn't necessarily involved in the second piece. But he knew that his research led to the second piece. And so this is like something I think it's incumbent on everyone to think about, making a positive dent because that wasn't necessarily his intention to have this other thing

created. And he ended up having a very tragic life. And it's an extreme example, but I think it's one where, you know, another good example would be, you know, if people have seen the movie based off the invention of the atomic bomb.

Oppenheimer. Everything that one person's genius and one person's incredible life's work could lead to these outcomes that nobody can predict. And so I'm wondering how you make sure in your life's work that you're doing all this good work, you're having this great impact on people, but really driving the point

home, making sure that you're having that positive impact. Like, are there other things you're considering? Like, are there some things you're saying no to? Because you're like, I don't want that to become a snowball that becomes something that

I didn't intend or maybe that never comes across.

“So I'm just the reason I bring him up as Fritz Hobber, I think, is a perfect encapsulation”

of a brilliant person who went after it and worked very hard. But there's all these things outside in the world that we cannot control. And you talk a lot about in the book about being okay with uncertainty and not being able to control. So I would just wonder how you react to somebody like him or up in Hymer who did all this

great work yet the results were not in their control. Yeah, I guess it's hard to know because I'm not inventing anything. I'm not saying anything that hasn't been said before. I think I'm saying it in a different way. I think I'm saying it in a way that it helps connect with people.

The one criticism again, and this came up earlier in our conversation is some would say, like, dude, why don't you just chill out? Yeah, just chill out, just enjoy your life. And to me, this is how I enjoy my life. Like this is fun.

To me, this is life on fun mode is by going hard and by getting up early and by working

really, really hard when it's time to work. But maybe that's not right for everybody. You know what I mean? Maybe that could cause somebody if they try to implement all this stuff. It could cause them to go crazy.

I don't know. The chance that could happen, it's only been beneficial to me and for the lot of the people that we work with. But there's a chance that this isn't right for everyone.

“In fact, like that's why we say, my publisher does not like this part.”

But I say, this is for eight to nine who want to be tens. This is for people who are already doing really, really well and they want to do a little bit better. So, maybe it's not for everyone if in the wrong hands, it could be destructive for somebody.

I don't think so. If I thought that was a case, then I wouldn't do it. But to me, like who knows, I'm sure both of those guys, although Oppenheimer had to know a little bit, like he was helping build something that was going to kill a lot of people. Like so, that's a little bit different than the other dude who was making the invention

to help grow more food. So, you wonder kind of how those people go about it. For me, I haven't really thought about any of the downsides, but you bring up an interesting point. It's an extreme example for sure.

I just think as people consider the impacts that they're going to have, maybe not even necessarily you. What about you, you're in this work, like you've read every word and edited and found research. Do you see negatives or potential downsides to this?

No, I don't see potential downsides. I was just curious, maybe the broader impact that you consider, not even in just the book but your life's work, you know. But I don't see anything in the book that even would have the potential of a downside. No.

It does lead me to an interesting question, though, because have you ever heard the term grindslop? I mean, I could guess what that means. I don't think I've, I mean, I guess, yeah, now everything has slop added at the end of it, but yes.

I know. All right. So, it talks to me about it. grindslop is a kind of content that's out there where if you're not satisfied in your work, your problem is, well, you're only working 60 hours a week and a week and a week.

You can work 70, you know. And this comes dressed up in all sorts of different ways, you know, different personalities. And I'm not going to name any names, but you see it out there. Sure. How is your life's work and how is the book not grindslop?

Explain that for people. Do you think it is? Be honest with me. Do you think it is? I don't think it is, but I want to hear you explain why it's not.

Well, I mean, just like we just talked about, I mean, again, when it's time to work, you've got to work. We haven't talked about quantity of that. We've talked about when it's time to go that you go really hard. And so is there grinding element?

Yes. Am I just going to push you to work more? I mean, I guess at times, if you're not doing anything, but the one thing that having a podcast for 11 years and 700 conversations does for you is it makes you more reasonable.

It makes you less black and white and much more gray. And I think that's really, really good. Because when you go out in the world and have conversations with people, you realize that the world is very, very gray. It's not black and white as much as we want rules or we want to think it's either this

or it's that it's almost never just this or that, right?

“Is that's why the political landscape is so challenging for so many of us is because most”

of us, the majority of humans are not in this camp or that camp, we're somewhere in the middle of those things. I definitely am, right? I'm not on either one. And so I don't have a home because that's not like real life.

And it's really, really tough because most of us are neither.

“So yeah, I would say grinds up, I could see if people cherry picked certain parts that”

maybe they would say that like a hundred shots a day. That seems like a lot. Oh my god, every day no matter what even on Christmas or it's snowing or my birthday or I'm sick, that seems crazy. That seems crazy.

Jesus, bro. Yeah. Exactly. Why don't we talk about the, not making excuses too. And if you look at the full picture of the combination of my podcast, the whole book,

not just little parts of it, I don't think it would be accused of that. Sure. So one of my favorite genres of social media is Kobe Bryant Reels.

So growing up, he was like my era.

Right? So people do these supercuts of like speeches he's given and it shows like different highlights of his career and him just talking about the dedication he brought to the game. And you know, I noticed there's content like that out there that's meant to inspire feelings and people.

If I'm having a rough day, if I'm feeling like man, I just don't have gas in the tank. I might get out my phone and look at some Kobe Bryant Reels. Say. But there's also a version of that like Arthur Brooks or somebody like yourself and I'm curious how you would place yourself in this paradigm.

There's the inspires feelings that you can push through like the Kobe Bryant Reel. And then there's like Andrew Huberman, Arthur Brooks, where they're giving you information that's meant to help you. They're bringing original research to bear to say, you know, I'm a neurologist. Here's how your brain works.

Here's a piece of information that's going to help you do what you do versus now for sure you're going to still feel feelings while listening to those guys because they bring passion to it. But then over here you've got something that's not necessarily giving you any new information. But if there's music in it, there's Kobe Bryant's voice in it.

There's these highlight Reels that inspire a feeling. So on this spectrum of information and feeling, where would you put yourself? Are you trying to inspire people to feel a certain way you talked about tears coming to people's eyes? Sure.

I think of them information to help them or both. So this makes me think of when we're having conversations with people who are considering me versus 10 other people for the to be their closing keynote at their company national sales meeting. And they'll like, give me your philosophy.

Like, what are you trying to do when you get on stage? And this is what I'm trying to do and this is what I say to be compelling on stage, to be really, really great, to be excellent.

“I think you have to have story, science, and practical application.”

You have to engage people and move them to the edge of their seats, great storytelling, get their attention, make it so that they want to watch you. Science is the human part of, like, this is actually true. This is real. There's evidence.

There's empirical evidence. Like, look at this is a job that you did really, really well, right? We would tell these stories in the book, and I'd say we, because this was genuinely like a group project, and then you would supply me, or sometimes I would find it, I guess, of this actual research and empirical evidence that brought that story like made it true.

And then, you have to answer the question, so what, why should I care, so what, why should I care? That's the practical application, so story, science, practical application. I try to write that way. I try to speak that way when I'm on stages, because you got to have all three.

You have to. If you want to be excellent, I've been to speeches where they're just good storytellers, I enjoy those. They're good, right? I try to come up with my own practical application as best I can, but usually I kind of

slowly forget about it. And then, oh, yeah, that guy was good, that type of thing.

But the best ones are where they tell these amazing stories, and I'm like, wait, I can't

wait for more. I don't want this to end. But then they also have the empirical evidence, the data, the research that proves all of that stuff true, and then they also go the extra step to say, here's how you can actually implement this into your life and change it for the better.

So the way we design the book, right, we're telling lots of stories, right, just the Brie, so who writes for Ank, he's about the publisher's story, he said, dude, my favorite book of the year, because there's so many useful and entertaining stories, right, which means a lot. This guy reads books for a living that he said that to me, but then at the end of each chapter,

there are reflection questions to make you think, as well as action steps to make you do. So I think you've got to have all three of those things in order to be like really, really effective. You have to move people. You have to inspire them.

It's important. You got to be a good storyteller, but all that stuff's got to have actual evidence that makes it true, and then you need to help them implement all of it.

“And that's what I think we did probably as good of a job as we've ever done when it comes”

to this book. Can you tell me a little bit about how that factors into your coaching work?

you meet with those people, does that mentality change at all, are you still trying to inspire them in certain ways, or is that more like tactical day-to-day coaching? Both, but one of the things we hear, especially when you see Garen Stokes or Sherry Cole or Brooke Cubs, the thing that we get the most are, I can feel the passion that they actually live all of this stuff they're teaching us.

That's what I love the most. That's our edge. Our coaches are actively doing the thing that they're teaching. They didn't go to some seminar and get certified to teach this stuff. They're actively living it themselves, both for themselves, like leading themselves as

well as leading teams and others, they're active coaches. They may have left the classroom to come work with me, but they're still coaching teams, like actually doing this stuff. So they're doing it in real time and teaching it in real time to the people that we work with. So a lot of people leave inspired, leave really, really juice up to do work.

Like look at Garen Stokes, look at his shirt after he's done speaking. It's soaking wet. It's gross. It's disgusting. Because he pours his entire heart and soul into every single interaction, whether it's

two people on Zoom, which we've done before, or a thousand people in person, doesn't matter.

“And so I think that's what we bring to it.”

Is this deep, deep joy and passion and actual living of the thing? And we share that and these guys are great communicators. They are very good storytellers. They're amazing in front of a room because they taught for 20 plus years. So they got a lot of reps in front of a group of people speaking in their world class.

The best in the world, the best I've ever seen at, and that's why I like, when I'm part of my job is selling our surfaces, it's the easiest sales job of all time because I believe in it. I believe in it with every ounce of my being of how good these guys are and how good they are with people.

And now we have years of evidence to prove that, as well. It's not just what I think or how I'm inspired, it's we have a lot of others who've been through it.

So, yeah, I think the inspiration is absolutely part of the thing that's most important

is to authentically live it yourself and then just share that with others. That's what moves people. That's what makes a difference. How do you encourage your coaches and the people that you're coaching? Because you end the book talking about this balance between being uncomfortable, but not

so uncomfortable that you break. The exact quote that I have, because I love how you wrap this up, you say the price of becoming excellent is the willingness to be perpetually uncomfortable, stretched, not miserable, challenged enough to grow, but not so much that you break. How do you balance that in your own life, how do you balance that when you're coaching people,

how do you find that balance? It's tough. It's nuanced. But I remember I did a live podcast with James Clear before atomic habits came out. So this is like a long time ago.

Now atomic habits, the greatest selling book of the past decade, you know, 25 million copies sold, incredible what he's done. But he talked about the Goldie Locks zone.

“So he's like, if you want to get better at tennis, you're not going to get better”

by playing Roger Federer. That's what he said at the time. Federer, that's how long it was. He was in the real player in the world when he said that. The point is you don't want to do something that's going to break you.

Like he's going to beat you into the ground if you play do in tennis. No matter how good you think you are, right? But you also don't want to play against the five-year-old who can't even hold a racket. You've got to find that Goldie Locks zone of your comfort zone of the thing so that you could regularly push on those edges.

The phrase "push your edges" comes from Jay Hennessey 26 year Navy seal. It's what he looked for in teammates who are going to become Navy seals alongside him when he went to work in San Diego and was in the training of future seals.

And so I'm always thinking of, and this is a prompt I asked myself at the end of each day,

what did I do today to push my edges? And that's something that's in that Goldie Locks zone of being, you know, examples. Go to improv class, right? That's not going to kill me. I'm very uncomfortable.

Yeah. I don't want to do it. But I do think it could help me become a better communicator so I get a black box theater. And I remember just in the owner of the theater, the very first day I go in there. He has us all get up on stage and get, I've ever done improv.

You probably kill it. Never. Never. Anyway. This is what he does.

He has us right up in a circle and he says, okay, here's what we're going to do.

This is the very first thing. I'm going to point to somebody.

“And when I point to you, you have to come to the middle of the circle and sing.”

Occupella, just sing. Any song you rush. Right? And I'm in there with this group and he points to me first and I have to go out in the middle and I'm like, I got to be first.

First guy. And I start singing Flintstones, meet the Flints, like, because I couldn't think of anything else. And it was actually movie planes, trains, and automobiles, John Candies, things on the bus.

And you know what? It was great.

They like clapped and laughed.

And I was like, you crushed the bat. That's not so bad. You know, I'm not a good singer. But I could do it. My point is, I didn't really want to do that.

I thought it would make me a better communicator. It pushed my edges. It made something that was really, really uncomfortable, a little bit more comfortable. And so when you push on your edges like that, and that golly like so and you get a little bit better, a little bit better.

So asking yourself a prompt at the end of the day, what did I do today to push my edges is very useful. And then you could write down, oh, I want to improv class and sing in front of a group of strangers. It was super uncomfortable.

But I'm better for it. Whatever. Maybe signed up for a triathlon, trained for it, physically, mentally.

“Whatever that thing is, what are you doing today to push your edges?”

There's a little bit. I think that's like that price of becoming that little bit better, being them certain, willing to pay that price. And then over time, again, if you consistently do it, it pays off in big, big ways. But you've got to be willing to continuously do it over a really long period of time.

That's the difference. Ryan Hawk singing Flintstone's theme song is, I didn't have that on my bingo card. That's amazing. So I did. So I did.

I was like, don't call me. Don't call me. Don't call me. I was like, no, and then I go out there and I couldn't think of anything else like blanked and did it.

But you're not for that long and then the next person had to go and everyone was like nice job, nice job. And so, you know, we all know how embarrassing or how hard that would be. And so everybody, they want to lift you up and make you feel good about it. And yeah.

So that was a perfect example of doing something that I really didn't want to do. And I'm way better for having done it. He could probably read your face, would be my guess. Sure. You know, you don't give him eye contact, right?

You look away. Yeah, I'm not here. I'm not here. You can't see me. I'm not here because I'm not looking at you.

And of course, they can see you. That's so funny. The coach that you mentioned earlier, this is a random thought. But the coach that you mentioned earlier that was sweating, that sweats a lot. Darren Stokes.

Yeah. Darren Stokes. It reminds me of this story is I saw before he kind of popped off. I saw Shane Gillis live in Cincinnati.

“He was at the, I think the tap theater, packed room.”

And we were sitting to the left side of the stage. And this was kind of before tires blew up. He was kind of making waves, but he wasn't really huge yet. And it's the best show I've ever seen. I've seen so many comedians live at all this comedy.

I've seen Dave Chappelle. Yeah. I've seen I've seen Seinfeld. I've seen so many people live. He murdered that room.

Like you've never seen. I mean, people were on the floor. Like I might face hurt. It was so funny. And the reason I bring him up is because after the show was over, we were sitting to the

left and he walked off stage behind the curtain. And I saw him walk off stage. And as soon as he got behind the curtain, I saw his shoulders slump. And I saw like the body language was that he had given every single ounce.

On stage you would have never, it was effortless.

You would have never guessed he was even trying. He was just like, oh, you know, you know, doing his bits effortless. And as soon as he walked off, it was like he was ready to immediately fall asleep. And that was a really moving moment for me, because sometimes what you see on the outside doesn't always match what's going on.

You don't really know what it costs that person to really put themselves out there. Oh, I love that story. It's that's what the great ones do. They make it look so easy. But what you don't see the price that Shane Gillis had to pay to make it look that way was

more repetitions than you can imagine into every syllable of every single word he said on that stage to make it appear like I'm just wandering out here exactly having a conversation. Miranda actually came to I did a speech for the Christ hospital recently and Cincinnati. And there are a few hundred people in there, you know, doctors and nurses and high-level people at this health system.

And I was super nervous because I thought like I'm the dumbest person in this room, you know, and she drove down with me and so I'm thinking about and she had not seen me speak. I think I'm like four or five years. So it's been a long time and I've gotten a lot of reps in the past four or five years. And we got going and I could feel like the opening went really well and I really settled

“in and the interaction and the little exercise I did, like everything just hit, right?”

Like it went really, really well. They responded well, feedback was great. And afterwards we're driving home like what do you think?

And she said, it was so cool because it never felt like a speech ever.

It felt like a conversation with the people in the room and I don't remember it feeling that way. You just kind of walked out and just started having a conversation and then she goes, I actually waiting for the speech to start and it never did. That's the highest compliment.

The speech never started. It was just the whole thing was this big conversation with, you know, there are a few hundred people in there in the room and I don't remember it being that way. And so I think that was kind of like, well, that's thousands and thousands of hours of not

up and do the thing, it feels like you're just wandering out having a conversation.

That's what practice looks like. And also afterwards completely done, completely done of, I got to go take a nap. That type of thing.

“That's the feeling, I think, because you put so much into it that afterwards, you don't”

have much left. And I think that's when you know, I'm going to give it everything I've got while I'm out here and it's going to look like I'm not even doing anything. But the people are going to be moved. They're going to take action.

They're going to be entertained. They're going to have fun, right? They're going to actually do something with it. And I'm going to be kind of dead, right? But don't recover.

I'll recover. And I'll be fine. I think that works. And I think that's like the sign. That's a great sign that you're prepped, you're ready, and then afterwards you're dead.

And you're like, OK, all right, this is a sign that we're on in order to do this thing really, really well. Yeah. And this is kind of where I want to end things. So you've had a really interesting journey.

I don't know anyone who's had a journey quite like yours from college quarterback to corporate world, to starting your own business, starting your own podcast. I think a lot of people, my generation, younger, probably just people of all stripes, really admire the courage it takes to step out and do your own thing, to work for yourself, to kind of chart that uncertain path forward.

So could you talk a little bit about the price that you paid during that journey? What has the cost been for you as you charted this uncertain path, this winding path forward? Yeah.

“Well, you have to get good at dealing with uncertainty.”

What I think about before I go to bed, or what I think about when I wake up really early, I think about that all the time. I mean, we don't do long-term contracts. I don't get paid until after my speeches, that's my choice, that's not theirs. Basically, we have to do the work and earn it every single session.

I would never lock people in, but what then you give up is you give up like guaranteed

revenue. Yeah. Yeah. Certainly. I have people down who work for me, their families are dependent on us having this work.

And nobody's locked in beyond literally the next meeting and if that next meeting goes bad, they only have to pay for that. So we are literally having to earn it every single day. That's how I've structured it because I just think that's the right way to do business, is that you have to earn it every single time, because in the keynote speaking world, I'm

getting these little mastermind groups, they go, you know, you gotta get paid in full before you get on the flight. I go, now I do the opposite. I don't send an invoice until after home, until afterwards, because you've got to earn it every single time.

And so I do think about that at times of like, what if it all falls apart, what if this whole thing dies? It could happen. I don't know. And so that's really, really scary.

So the price is you have this kind of never-ending productive paranoia that it could

end at any moment. People could stop liking the podcast or the books or they don't like the way that we do the things that we do. I don't know. Like anything could happen.

I think about that every day, all the time. Jim Collins and I talked about it privately. I go, my own personal productive paranoia is that. My own family, first and foremost, and then the people that work for me and work on my team, their families too, I'm responsible for that.

And I feel that responsibility in a big way, it just never, ever goes away. And I think that's part of the price. Right? Like we had to do something insanely cool. It's the greatest gig in the world.

We say that to each other all the time. With that said, there's still a big risk that people won't like it or they'll stop liking it. And so my message to them every single day is no matter what, no matter how good we get or how much we're impacting people in a positive way, we have to be getting better.

We have to make sure that we're getting better every single session, every single meeting, every single podcast, whatever the thing is, we have to notice a police see improvement. And to do that, we have to be brutally honest with each other, give each other, tough feedback,

“sometimes it's staying, sometimes it's hard, but that's the only way we're going to keep”

getting better. And so I think that's a pretty big price. The cool thing is the rewards better. It's a cool gig dude. Because it's cool as it gets, there's still risk and there's still fear and there's still

a chance, but I also like our chances. I'm literally betting on us. I bet on us every single day with my family's livelihood, because if it goes bad, I have no money. I mean, we save a lot, but other than that, that's all we got.

And so it's on us to keep getting better, to keep adding value, which is where we started

And if we do that, I like our chances.

If we don't, yeah, we'll get fired by everybody and we'll be done and we'll have to figure out what to do. But right now, we're having way too much fun. We're making such a difference in people's lives that, yeah, just like you turnally grateful for it.

And I think the reward is that we get to keep doing it.

“So that's what juices us up to get after it every day.”

Ryan Hawk. Dude. This has been great. This has been great. Thank you for joining me on the Learning Leadership.

Dude.

Well, even though we never had a conversation like this one, when I texted you like,

hey, do you want to do this? I'm very grateful that you said yes, but you were even better than I expected because I like that you are you and you never have ever tried to be somebody else. You bring this unique view of the world. You bring up some random dudes I've never heard of.

I knew you would.

“You read these crazy books in history, which I love when I watch your videos because I always”

learned something and I laugh and I'm entertained. My kids laugh at your videos. It's impossible to do. That's impossible to do that, man.

So credit to you, man, I really, really appreciate you.

This book is nowhere near as good if it weren't for you. I mean, that genuinely you know that all of the work you've done, the editing, the research, the stories, the helping me if I'm doubting things, like all of that. You know, irresponding it 445 in the morning, all that stuff, I really, really appreciate you, man.

Very much. Thanks, man. I appreciate that. Today is the end of the podcast club. Thank you for being a member of the end of the podcast club.

If you are, send me a note, Ryan at learningliter.com. Let me know what you learned from this great conversation about the price of becoming. Even though I was featured on this one, I still took some notes after listening and I hope these are useful for you. One, the power of compounding love to when Dan talked about Shane Gillis when you look

at someone performing at the highest level, what you're seeing is the accumulation of thousands of hours of work that nobody witnessed. He makes it look effortless. That's when you know he's put in the work. The process, that's the input.

We all should start paying more attention to our inputs to all of the work that nobody sees. And then no, dabbling, optionality is overrated in a world of infinite choices, commitment to something, stop dabbling, pick one thing.

“You keep saying you're committed to and ask yourself honestly, my all in or am I dabbling.”

How are you going to beef up your obituary as Ed Lathamor said to me? It's about making a full commitment or not doing it. It's 100 or it's zero. No, kind of going to do it. It's either do it or don't.

And then who's this book for? This book was not written for people who need to be convinced that working hard or being consistent is important. Most of you already know that. This was written to inspire you to create a plan, to work a plan, and to be prepared for

the inevitable adversity you're going to face if you're an eight or a nine and you want to be a ten, then buy this book, the price of becoming read it in in a minute. Tell me Ryan at learningleadard.com, let me know what you learned from reading the price of becoming. I am so grateful for your support because of it.

I get to spend my days doing what I love so much and I will forever be grateful for you. If you support also this book, the price of becoming go to Amazon or learningleadard.com and buy it today. Thank you so much. [MUSIC]