Mafia Sunday, with Michael Franzese and Sammy "The Bull" Gravano - Megyn Kelly's "Double Feature" of Fascinating Interviews

the least.

“Hey everyone, I'm Megan Kelly. Welcome to the Megan Kelly show and today's double”

feature episode. This is a good one. It is Mafia Sunday. Yes, we're going into the archives to bring you to fascinating conversations with two former members of the Mafia who opened up in a very transparent way about their lives before and their lives after their time in the family. First, Michael frenzies and then Sammy the bull gravano. I mean, I can't tell you the number of times I have referenced that

interview with Sammy the bull gravano. It was truly one of the most memorable exchanges I've ever had in my entire career. You listen to this sampling and you will see why. Enjoy. Today we bring you the fascinating story of a man born into the mob. Imagine that. Michael frenzies grew up as the son of the notorious underboss of New York's Colombo crime family and became extremely successful

himself. He's been called one of the biggest mob earners since Al Capone but he has since left his life of crime behind and is now a bestselling author, speaker and host of "Sit Down" with Michael frenzies on YouTube. Michael, welcome to the show. Nice to meet you. Well nice to meet you. Megan, thanks for having me. What a fascinating story you have. So let's start at the beginning. You were born into

the mob, describe your dad and how he came into it. Well my dad my father actually immigrated here in about 1902 and 1903 and he was a prominent guy in Brooklyn even though he wasn't a member. He certainly knew a lot of the guys my dad, my grandfather had a bar and a bakery and a lot of guys would come in and associate with him. My dad started to meet them through my grandfather and my grandfather was known as

"Tooted Alliance" so he was a pretty substantial guy and my father got drawn in you know. He was just that type of guy, that type of spirit and they saw something in him before you know it. You know he became a made man and eventually rose up in the ranks to Captain and an underboss of the Colombo family and you know, Megan I grew up a lot differently than most people. I grew up you know, hating the

government, hating the police because my dad was constantly under surveillance so

we had law enforcement around us all the time and I always viewed them as harassing

“my dad so you know I kind of grew up you know from the time I can remember you”

know in that lifestyle. Hmm so how the talk is through like your earliest memories of your dad and like okay my my childhood my family is not like all the others. Well you know my very earliest memory of this this it's amazing how you can remember some things that just really impact you. I was probably four years old and my dad had we were in Brooklyn at the time but my dad had moved us

out to my grandmother's house who lived in Long Island and I hadn't seen him for a couple of days I assumed again I was four years old but then one day he comes into my grandmother's house he hadn't shaved in a while his right-hand guy got any majority who is again my dad's right-hand guy was out on the porch and I can see through the window and he was kind of like standing guard my

dad comes in hugs my mom and you know they talked for a few minutes then he comes over to me I was sitting on the steps and he gives me a big hug and you know I love you son and all of that and I didn't know what was going on and then he left well what I realized later on it was that was during the of Profacci Gallo War and they had taken to the mattresses as a saying goes

my dad wasn't around for a while that's the earliest memory that I have and it

just continued there because my dad was so high profile he was always under

investigation always amazed you talk it up long for us now we say he was kind of like the John Gotti if his day so you know it's it's my memory you know going way back and he was always in the media so you know I had issues at school because my dad you know guys was hey you got a mafia dad you know I would fight because I love my dad and kill anybody said and so it was you know from my

“earliest days that I remember that and did you did you ever like tell you you”

know I'm in this thing called the mafia this is what I do you can't talk about it how did you come to realize he was part of this organization you know one of the

many things I respect about my dad at that time he never broke what was

mention it obviously you know every once in a while I'd hear a crack because

“low enforcement was outside surveilling him but he would never bring it up he”

would never admit to anything never talk about anything obviously a lot of his

guys were coming to the house all the time but to me they were like uncle you know uncle Sam uncle this guy so it was normal you know but I saw the way my dad was treated we would go to the Copacabana and go out places and you know you always had a lot of respect people get a lot of charisma and he commanded a lot of respect in that regard but never never never never did he

mention anything when I was younger never so how'd you figured out well again you know from what I from my observation from what I read in the media you know that was huge stories about him all the time and obviously you know what I saw and what other people told me so and I never really brought it up to him I would never say anything to him because to me he was dad you know he was a loving

father and I never did it wasn't till I got older and my dad started you know

“getting a dieted quite a bit and going on trial for you know serious crimes he”

was on a trial twice for Grand Lawson he and once from murder so obviously during that we had some talks and my dad would always say you know I'm innocent son I didn't commit these crimes eventually he was acquitted on three of those trials that he went to in the state in New York so you know I started to know obviously as I got older how was was I because I I know you know Sammy the

bull and he came on the show two summers ago and he was talking to me about how he tried to move his family into a sort of a nicer neighborhood and he wound up leaving because he was getting really angry that the neighbors were telling their kids not to play with his kids and he went over to the neighbors house and he threatened them at the door you know like I'm gonna get you unless you and he

said he had this realization like what am I doing but this is not I'm scaring these people you know to with an inch of their lives these are civilians I can't be here I got to go back to my normal like I'm wondering how your dad was when he had scuffles at school when the teachers were nasty to you and the neighbors crossed a line were there any situations like that you know not

really I mean we were kind of accepted in the neighborhood you know what happened then my dad was under surveillance from seven or eight different agencies law enforcement agencies and the tactics were different back then then today to everything is very covert undercover informants high-tech surveillance equipment back then when they had you under investigation they wanted you to

know about it and so for periods like seven eight nine years we had constant law enforcement around us they would sit you know on the front of our house the back of our house so that we couldn't leave without them cebilling us the

“neighbors actually got upset with them I remember one woman putting our”

garden hose on that because she was so upset of tired of seeing them sitting in front of her house my dad you know he was a charismatic guy people like him you know I didn't run into any of that I mean some kind of like I said kids in school would get a little out of hand but I would deal with it but you don't want to tell you I played sports in school and my dad wouldn't miss a

game and when I was playing baseball if I was up to bat my dad walked on to the

field the Empire would never call strike three on me when he saw my dad's but I

used to say dad you're very good from my batting average back then but I didn't run into that kind of resistance from people and what's that what took me like what years are we talking about when you were what you were you were born I was born at 51 okay so we're talking you know late 50s early 60s and right through the 60s is one of my dad really you know had all

his trouble so I was thought that whole decade all right and so how about you you become I mean I'm picture in something of course like Goodfellas where you're a young kid and you're in in trans to by the lifestyle and you feel like a big man but you tell me how did you get attracted to the business yourself and make the decision to join you know it was just the opposite with me my dad you know

preached against me doing anything but getting an education he wanted me to go to school he wanted me to be a doctor he was you know the hell bent on education Mike you're going to be the first professional in the family and he meant it he kept me on that road it wasn't until you know he was undided in a federal case from masterminding and nationwide string of bank robbers he

gets convicted he gets a 50 year prison sentence in 1967 and in 1970 when I was 19 he went off to do his time Joe Columbus who was the boss of our family and I was very close with that family he kind of takes me under his wing we start to march with the Italian American Civil Rights League we were marching against the FBI for you know defaming Italian Americans so I got very involved in the league

laid on in this I went to jail for a crime that I was guilty of I pled guilty did my time my dad obviously did a lot of bad things in his life but that particular crime that he did 40 years in prison on my dad was innocent of I'll take that to my grave we investigated everyone of those witnesses they recounted that testimony we gave him lie detected test proved they lied it to

trial we can never get the conviction overturned so I was held bent on trying to

help my dad prove his innocence because he had essentially a death sentence he went in when he was 50 years old 50 on top of that you know and it's a long time so I got into that life because I lost interest in school I was a sophomore in college and I was a pretty med student I was highly influenced by joke clumble and the guys that you know that I met during that time and they would

say Mike if you don't help you father out he's going to die in prison so I went to see him in love and worth and the penitentiary we sat in a visiting

“room as her dad you tell me your innocent I believe you I'm not going to”

school anymore if I don't help you out you're gonna die in here we had a pretty intense discussion because he was against it but he knew my mind was made up and

I was a pretty headstrong kid so he said to me son if you're gonna be on the

street you know I want you on the street the right way and then you know maybe I don't like to you know say this I don't like to be offensive to people but he asked me one question and he said son if you had to kill anybody could you do it and I thought about it for a minute you know kind of a little bit surprised by the question but I said dad at the circumstances were right I

can do it and he said that's the right answer go home somebody's gonna be in touch with you do whatever you told and that's when he proposed me to membership in the life well it's almost like you were on the the same path as Michael Corleoni and the godfather right that he was supposed to be the son but didn't get drawn into the business he was gonna be a senator and a position of

“power you were supposed to become a doctor and pursue a legit life and yet you”

did get pulled you did get pulled in yes and you know it's like I said it wasn't

even though I was around my dad and listen we always got first-class

treatment I can't tell you how many times Megan I went to the Copacabana we met everybody from Sinatra on down and they all had respect for my dad and the owner Julie Padel loved my father and we got that kind of treatment my dad was also in the music business I met a lot of artists when I was younger so he carried himself in that way where people were attracted to him and he was a

a tremendous influence on me in that regard I watched him I observed him and but it wasn't I didn't want to be against it that's not what my life was all about you know I I was heading to the legitimate way and then I got drawn in because I just felt you know it was incumbent upon me to help my dad I was also the oldest of the kids you know and there's a myth in that life that you

know once you're part of that life you go to prison they take care of you forever that's not true whatever my dad had on the street at the time you know it ran out after about two years and then we were on our own so I had to help support the family and and do all the things that you know and all the sun would do well I didn't realize that I thought I thought I believe the myth

too so now you're what like in your young 20s and what did how did you start to become a part of it you know today do they give you a gun and say you've got to shoot somebody this is one of the rumors that you've got to shoot somebody you got to kill somebody in order to officially be accepted as part of the mafia is that true what how did you realize you were in and what was

expected of you well my dad sent word you know downtown to the to the officials about two weeks later a couple of years more captain and a family picked me up and he took me to see the boss now Joe Colombo had been shot seriously wounded at a big rally we had for the Italian American civil rights league at Columbus Circle and I was like twelve steps away from him when

that happened so a new boss had taken over he's he's passed on now Tom DeBella and I sat with Tommy says Mike I got a message from your father he said you

“want to become a member of our life is that true when I said yes he's well”

here's the deal from now on 24 hours a day seven days a week you're on call to serve this family the Colombo family and that means if you mother was sick and she's dying and we call you to service and you're at her bedside you leave your mother's side you come and serve us from now on wind number one in your life before anything and everything when in it for we feel you deserve this

privilege this honor to become a member of a legend out and that's how it started I was 21 years old I was in kind of like a pledge period I was a recruit that's the official title of that where I had to do anything and everything I was told to do to prove myself worthy and you know it could have been something very medial a lot of discipline at life a lot of alleged

respect a lot of you know authority you had a meeting at eight o'clock you

life drive the boss to a meeting sitting a car two three four hours got for big you leave go to the restaurant get a newspaper he comes out you're not there you're in trouble you know I know I did that once I paid the price a lot

“of stuff like that and you know I mean I got to be honest you know the life is”

very violent at times and if you're part of that life you part of the violence and there's no escape and if anybody tells you differently they're even not being honest with you well they weren't a made man in that life and you know I think you know what I mean it's but you know here's the other myth you know a lot of guys talk about you know all these killings like we ran

around all day long and all we did was baseball bad people and murder people absolutely not true you know you know you know in our life and at least in our family I can tell you this you know murder was taken very seriously it was the last course of action it had to be approved by the boss there was discussion over it most of the time at least that the my experience in a 20

plus years or put into that life it wasn't that guys were around running around every day just targeting people to hurt and I know you know there's a lot of guys on YouTube that talked away now that wasn't my experience but it is part of the life and if you called upon to do it you got to do it mm-hmm was it petty crime was it like you didn't pay back the lawn so I got to break your

legs that's not petty but I'm just saying it wasn't it was violent but it wasn't

“murder so did you have to hurt people because I feel like that would be a”

before and after moment well let's put it this way you know a lot I had a lot of bookmakers around me that were taken you know obviously taking bets illegally at the time and you know the the last course of action is to hurt somebody because if somebody's in debt to you you want to you want them to pay you it's only if they're you know doing something like so obnoxious to you that hey you got to

teach this guy a lesson but it's not the first course of action at least with me

it wasn't and with most of the people that I knew at that time certainly not with my dad that wasn't the first course of action but did it happen at times yeah I'm not going to say it didn't and you know there was kind of a it was kind of two different categories I would say in that life you read a racketeer or you were a gangster getting example and our family we had 115 made guys at that time this

was after I took the old 115 made guys out of that 115 maybe 20 of us will real earnest we were bringing money into the life 20 the other 95 you know who's got a no show job who's got a gambling it who's trying to do something just to to make a few bucks and they're the guys that you know will lean upon most of the time to do the work because you got to earn you away in that life guys

had to bring it in money they want to protect those guys however against the

never really had the ability to become a racketeer because if he did he would

be any be earning but a racketeer has to be both because you're going to be

“cold upon in that life to do what you have to do and you can't refuse and you”

gotta be capable in that regard so you know but again the smarter guys you don't hurt people every day that's not what we would do we are not to do it must have been a jarring flip right to go from this world in which you thought you were going to be a doctor healing people to this world in which you became part of the mafia sometimes having to hurt people right like do you ever think about it

like that you know I did make it but quite honestly maybe it was because being around my dad my whole life or maybe I did have something in me maybe I wasn't destined to be a doctor I don't know I mean I often reflect it on that myself and said you know how do I how did I adapt to this so well because you know I had some success life and look I'll be honest with you know I had a

very idealistic view of the life when I got into the life you know they told me hey you know you don't have to worry wherever you go in the world somebody's gonna have you back don't ever worry about your mother you just do your wife you go to nobody's ever gonna hurt them we'll protect them you have a brotherhood around you you know I was gonna be you know bonded in blood in a

different way you know with my father than I already was so I had a very idealist the view of the life coming in I was excited about it you know and I wanted to be the best possible mom guy could be at that time so you know maybe maybe I did have an in me all the time I just didn't know it this is mobs for dummies so to become a maid guy what does it mean and I know

you took like the oath of O'Marita which I really I think I also took that same oath at Fox News but is that only when you become a maid guy or is that just like

when you first sort of join them up yeah well I was in kind of like I said a

right through 1974 75 they had an expression in the life that covered all five

families and that the books were closed they weren't making a recruiting any new

“guys the only way they were able to do that and one of the families if somebody”

died they were able to bring another guy in to replace that person so when I was a recruit I was around guys that were waiting 20 years to become a maid guy meaning what though like is that you're in the mafia but what but you're not made I mean I only know the good fellows reference when Joe Pashy's character became made he became more important somehow but he was in the mob prior to that

moment right we'll prior to that you become an associate meaning that somebody that's an official in that life put you on record with them and you are officially with that person that makes you an official associate nobody else can do business with you unless the maid guy says it's okay and he has complete authority over you he's responsible for you and you're responsible to answer

“the hand that's an associate so when you're in a recruit like I was I was an”

associate but it's not an official position in that life once you get you know you prove yourself and you're approved to become a maid member which is the the term that they use well then you take an oath and you become a soldier and

a soldier is the first official position in that life the next ranking up is a

copper scheme or a captain and then you have the higher our crew which is the boss the underboss and the consulieri so and that's it those are the rankings and with the boss the underboss and the consulieri and who's the don is he is he above all of them or is that the boss yeah you know the don is an expression that you know you hear from Italy but the boss of the family is can

be considered the don okay so thank you for watching me through this yeah okay so

“we they made a movie about your life and they they re-enacted the moment”

that you took the oath a which would have been in 1975 this is from the 2014 documentary profiling you God the father was the name here's a bit of that if you ever violate the oath of luckers of Austria are you burning hell like the saint burning in your hands your allegiance to luckers of Austria is bound in blood should you ever violate this oath your blood will be

shined you will keep the secrets and traditions you will hear and learn about you will not violate another members wife sister or daughter or ever raise your hand against another member and you will carry out every border given to you it goes a nostril comes before anything and everything in your life mm how accurate was that I was pretty accurate you know that's that's the

oath and obviously they they do you know a shed a little blood they prick your your finger and they have a knife there to make a little slits so and then they burn a saint in your hands and that's the oath I mean it's quick but it's very serious mm and try it out they spin you around three times and make you sing a song it's different but it's also similar

quick quick the initiation experience and different expectations so you become a maid guy now at this point are you developing a family like I would think the more layers you have and the more connections to sort of regular society schools and the bridge club whatever the more complicated this gets we yes I mean I was I was married young I got married when I was 24 and that

marriage lasted for a couple years I had three children in three years with my first wife and I'm married now for 38 years with my my wife Camille we have four more children so I have seven all together but you know Megan his is a

thing that I've said and I'm careful the way I said this you know I always

called a mom life the street life the gang life their evil lifestyles and I'm not calling the guys evil I was one of them I just happen to be very fortunate to be in the position I am now but the lifestyles evil because I don't know any family of any member of that like that hasn't been devastated and I mean that including my own now not my wife and kids I've been able to you know to

spare them of that but my mom was my dad did 40 years on that 50 my mom she died in 2012 she was 33 years without her husband at the end of her life I

blamed him for everything that went wrong in her life and rightfully so what went

“wrong I had a sister 27 years old died of an overdose of drugs a lot of”

turbulence in my household always and which it was a crazy lifestyle she

dies at 27 my younger brother 25 years as a drug addict when he I can't even begin to tell you how many times I had to save his life and how much trouble he caused the family because of his drug addiction eventually he got himself in trouble cooperated with the government wired himself up against my father and he put my father back in jail on another case and my dad was 92 years old

what that happened he was out on a while a son going against the father added another sister you know 20 I mean she was 41 years old she wasn't ever mentally stable she grew up in this turbulence didn't sit well with her she passed away at 41 so my whole family was destroyed and every family of memory member of that life that I know is in a similar situation so any

lifestyle does that for a family is obviously a better and evil lifestyle so

“you know it's and you don't realize that going in I didn't realize I'm going to”

go to jail for all these years and my family's going to be destroyed I didn't think that way again I had an idealistic view of the life even seeing what my father went through I kind of pushed that out and so well that's not gonna

happen to me or if it does happen to me I'll deal with it I was always type of

guy to figure hey I can figure everything out and I'll deal with it and somehow I'll make it work you know so I had that kind of an attitude but yes it very very rough on the families no doubt so were your was your first brush with a law Rudy Giuliani no that was oh gosh that was way way way later on I had that was your last yeah that was that was way late that was in

84 I mean my first brush with the law was with the Italian American Italian American Civil Rights League and we were piccating I got an altercation with a cop and I hit him and you know they beat me up and it was a mess but I was like 20 years old when that happened and then you know I had a bullseye on my back immediately because of my dad I was arrested 18 times I had

seven indictments all together I had two federal racketeering cases one state recon indictment and I had four other state in New York cases so from the time I was 20 years old I was just getting arrested getting indicted fighting the

law it was just a lifelong battle for me that's amazing I mean it's it's really

like racketeering Giuliani multiple indictments in New York it sounds just like somebody who I know is the former president and likely to be potentially the next president Donald Trump which will get to because I know you get some insights on what he's going through but this you know racketeering was is a charge that was created so that federal prosecutors could get at mobsters who

they hadn't been able to sort of sweep up in a big net of criminality and I know you got caught in that that net eventually so you've got maybe 14 years there where you get arrested and you get out or you get some small punishment can you give me a flavor for how you were the you were a racketeer you weren't a gangster what kinds of things were you doing I but how are you paying the bills

to where you were considered in that first group well you know I I was fortunate

“I think in that I understood how to use that life to benefit me in business and”

you know I went on to make a burst of a significant amount of money both legally and illegally you know I had two automobile dealerships legitimate I had a Mazda and a Chevrolet agency I had a leasing company I had a couple of restaurants that I was involved in I had a film production company at one point in time that actually we made about 30 films at the time and

distributed them throughout the world so I had a lot of legitimate things going on but the biggest enterprise was scam whatever you want to call it that I got involved in was the wholesale gasoline business and in a nutshell I devised a scheme along with a partner to defraud the government out of tax in every gallon of gasoline and it was an operation we ran for about eight

years I had the Russian mob guys from Brighton Beach involved with me I had about 350 gas stations I either owned or operated at that time and I had 18 companies that were licensed to collect the tax on every gallon of gasoline height of our operation we're selling a half a billion gallons a gas amount and we're taking down 20 30 40 cents a gallon without the mark with

Barrett that time so we've ran in several million dollars a week and that was there were other guys doing it you know some of the Russians were doing it but I think we perfected the system and lasted you know quite long and we had a lot other people that we're trying to do it that we're involved with us so we we created that scam and it was you know people said it was the biggest scam since

weren't big drug dealers obviously when you talk drugs you know enormous money

“but we weren't big drug dealers despite what everybody says not true when I took”

an oath they told me straight out you deal drugs you die and we weren't a lot to touch it it was some guys doing it on the slide yeah but we weren't major drug dealers at least back through on my era so you know I was doing a lot of things and I had a head for business and I just kept plugging away what do you do with the money did it turn it over to the family do you put it in a checking

account well you know we do both I mean I had to give up 25% of my whatever I earned had to go up the ladder to the family and that's the deal that I made with the boss at the time and then you know I had several bank accounts I had bank accounts overseas that we wired money out to I had a lot of cash at that time I had a safe in my house so you know different ways and you wash money

when I was in the film business I produced a couple of movies with you know gas tax money that I had cleaned up so you know it's it became a drawer quite

“honestly because we had so much money coming in and we had to devise the”

system to get rid of it basically or to put it in place that was secure do you

is it like the movies where you get in trouble if you're too flashy if you're wife by the fur coat you know you're supposed to look like you're not making that kind of dough well you know some guys like my dad I mean he would drive around in a 1964 red plummet valley and that my mother wouldn't even get into him and he didn't anyone anybody know what he was doing in a way I wasn't

that way I mean look I was earning money so I mean I had a jet plane I had a helicopter I had houses in three parts of the country you know one house I built on two acres of land with a record ball court and all of that so but I was making the gym at money I was paying tax rate that time so I was able to show that but no we didn't get in trouble for that I mean nobody told

us how to live you know if I mean if there was something like in the movie good fellas and you had to lay low for a while I mean that was certainly a possibility but I wasn't in that category yeah you mentioned that you made some movies and it just so happens that the producer of this segment Natasha is a huge fan of one of your movies called Mazelium so she has queued up this this

little clip in part of the trailer for the audience and sat to she gave her soul the evil force in the Mazelium what's the matters isn't I gotta tell you the story behind this really quickly all right especially if somebody I've there that loves the movie I have a guy around me it was a Jewish guy my name is Jerry Zimmerman very close to me loved the guy it was in the

car business with me long story short he gets himself in some very serious trouble and I have to have a sit down with a maid guy from another family over Jerry they wanted to kill him and I really had a fight to keep him alive because he insulted some maid guys not allowed to do that anyway I clear him right but this guy was an old timer the captain and the other family he was so

and sensed with this I said Jerry I don't trust this guy even though we got it clear you could be walking down the street a card barrels into you I don't know it's gonna happen I said I want you to go out to California with your brother we had a brother out here and just stay there let me make sure this is okay so he goes out about two months later he calls me up he says hey chief we're

going to be in the movie business I so you know about movies he's not worried but I got a script I got a director he says send me 83 thousand dollars and you're my partner right by send him the money PS this is the movie

“Mosulim a million dollars later we produced that film that honestly didn't”

scare me after I saw what happened with it but that was my intro into the business because we lost money on that film initially but listen to this especially for your your work or there all of a sudden that film becomes a cult classic and I've been earning money on that film for the last 30 years up until about three months ago somebody came to me and said I'll give you a

50 grand to take it over and I sold it to him but I've been earning on it for 30 years after after with the movie it was crazy this business is so crazy you

never know what's gonna happen it's so rare to make movie to make money off of

the movies it's like happens once a and a million so okay Mosulim comes out

like you said you met Frank Sinatra at the Coppa Cabana you know how how

incestuous do you feel like Hollywood the entertainment industry is with the mafia because you know it's all sorts of speculation well looks we we had relationships there for sure I mean there was you know agents that I was very close with one in particular it's passed away now but so you don't make an I have to tell you this a lot of people in the industry like to

being around us we didn't have to chase them and threaten them and do all of that they enjoyed our company some of the guys like they love being around my

“father I think people enjoyed being around to me because you know we carried”

ourselves a certain way we weren't looking to put the arm on somebody all the time and so they enjoy being in business with us and I don't I don't I don't have to tell you you know on this business if you can bring money to the table people like you I don't think they really care who you are you know in many cases but you know so look we did have involvement we didn't control the

industry in any way I wouldn't say that but did we have you know presents there yes listen did Joe Columbo absolutely have an impact on the movie to God father 100% I mean I don't know if you saw that series the offer yeah I actually watching that right now well I thought it was brilliantly done I mean I really did and a lot of it was true you know that was my era I was there during all of

that it was very close to Joey at that time so a lot of it was very accurate and you know he did have that control and he did have an impact the word mafia was taken out of the script that's for sure Joey did that he did shut it down at some point you know with the union and they did have to come back to him in order to continue production so you know we did have influence

what about you know I realize the mafia is not what it used to be but when you're out there walking around as a civilian what are the businesses you you go by or you go into or you're like probably connected oh gosh well unions you know for sure and you know another myth another myth is that mafia eyes we sit in our social clubs and we target the next business that we're going to

take over the fraud influence whatever not always so so often people from

inside their company would come to us hey we have a way to defraud our company we have a way to make some money you know you're gonna protect us you're gonna give us money you're never gonna tell on us so a lot of people from inside the company would come to us happen to me with general motors happen to be with

“monster happen to me with GE credit quite often and that's how I got involved”

in some legitimate businesses but you know lug unions of course you know I'll tell you this too you know people come to me about Donald Trump the Donald Trump deal with the mob and yeah he did and so did Helmsley and so did government and so did anybody in New York that wanted to get had building made and had to deal with the unions you just had to and you know so

there's that does that make somebody in bed with the mob no you're just doing business so you know yes we had influence you know in the whole people businesses to like laundry I guess that for a very brief time when I was with Jones Day the law firm I was with for many years I did a little white color crime work the opposite side and I remember I took the

deposition of this guy was working for one of the crime families and they were laundering money through these funeral homes and I thought my God I would

never have thought funeral homes would be a place where the mob would be

in control laundering money but you know anything's like that did you have any familiarity with funeral homes or anything like it yeah one of my dear friends who's passed on now he was a funeral director he had a funeral home so yeah it is a place you can watch money people pay with cash any place with people paying with cash is a place to lend a money restaurants pizza dollars you know

obviously places like that so because there isn't really good accounting with that and you can you can put a lot of cash through it you get a lot of cash out of it so you know those were the kind of favorites I mean listen in the film business nobody really did an accounting of where the money came from so I mean I I made movies with stolen gas tax money right nobody so you and as you

are rising in wealth and notoriety and you know you're succeeding you were you know as we said in the intro one of the most successful mobsters ever you got featured you you weren't in the movie good fellas but your name was used as one of sort of the big guys when Rayley Auto was walking through the restaurant and going into the sort of the seat this is where is this where he's taking his

“girlfriend out for a date like one of the first dates I'm trying to remember”

I haven't seen the clip yet but I yeah okay so we'll play it because they mentioned your name in this and he says yeah Mikey Frances I saw him

brother and you had Nicky eyes and Mikey Francesy so that's supposed to be you

“were you surprised to see yourself featured in good fellas I was really”

surprised because you know I mean I knew that crew very well I knew Henry very well I knew Jimmy Burke and Poli Barrio you know was was a dear friend of mine and a family but I was I was surprised because that was a different family and Nick Pileji who was the writer after I saw that I called Nick up and I said Nick why did you throw me in there you saw Michael yet name value and all that and you

knew all those guys and see yeah but you could at least got them to say my name correctly you know so you left it I was surprised I didn't expect to see that okay so eventually Rudy Giuliani does come into your life and you know Rudy Giuliani we kind of know him much differently today but he was I mean an absolute hero in many ways back in the day including up New York and he was

former federal prosecutor he was he was the he was attorney for the Southern District of New York which is considered the most prestigious U.S. attorney post in the in the country and when he was young he wasn't kidding around he was I mean a true crime fighter and very focused on the mob and that put you in his crosshairs so talk about that well yeah he and I did me on a major

rack of touring case I was lead defendant and I had 15 coat defendants and I was big you know shy locking case you know money extortion case allegedly and I was forced to a finance a leasing company that was probably had 1500 legitimate loans on the street and about 30 shy lock loans and I was the one that you know allegedly put up the money for that which wasn't true but anyway so I get

“indicted and I'll never forget in the courtroom you know Rudy comes up to me”

in my attorney John Jacob at the time and he says Francis if I can pick you on this case I'm giving you double what you father God you're going to get a hundred years and you know that's the kind of time that we're giving those guys back then and I remember standing told a total of a minute I say Rudy bring it on

I bet you guys four times already let's go for round five which I always say

is the dumbest thing to do you know you don't give me any more and fortunately after a several month trial in federal court Manhattan I was a quitted in that case and my coat of hands some of them got convicted one got 30 years so I would got a lot of time no doubt that's amazing I mean that's that's downright scary the only scary are they seeing somebody like you across from me angry would

be somebody like that who really has the power to to take your life away in a different way and and he could do it well tell you know you got to give Rudy either the credit or the blame depending upon what side you're on he was the one that really use the rack of touring a rack of hearing loss effectively because it had been on the books for quite some time they did just didn't use it but

he he made it a tremendous weapon and I say that Rico is the single most damaging tool that the government had to you know bring a lot of destruction to that life and you know Rudy and I I wouldn't say we were friends but we certainly healed things after 30 years he actually wrote the forward in my book which he did a great thing yeah it really is and you know what he was a great

mayor I don't know anybody says he was a great mayor he was great yeah I know it wasn't until he got you know connect with Trump and so on and then he's just started behaving very erratically he was kind of not like his former self but yes he wrote wonderful things about you in your book and talked about how when when he first met you his team was prosecuting you that they

took on the five families in of New York's mafia and one and that they prosecuted you many times what he goes on to say that hold on a second I want to find it that he got a little angry when he read articles about you

in places like fortune the list of the 50 most wealthy and powerful mob bosses

vanity fair claiming you were the biggest money maker in the mafia since Al Capone which we referenced but ultimately struck a deal with you and really what he was saying in the forward was that you ultimately had a conversion and that while he was skeptical at first he knowing you all these years actually came to believe it that you were committed to changing your life that you actually did

find God and that you were gonna leave this life of crime behind you which is the redemption part of your story and it's extraordinary so eventually you did not you would not escape Rudy's focus and tell us how you wound up going to jail well you know after I was acquitted in the Julie honey case several months

“later I think not that long three of four months later I was in died in”

Brooklyn on this whole gas tax scheme among some other things and you know

the principal witness against me in this next case in Brooklyn this next three go case and we beat him you know in Rudy's case they did Jordan believe him so the government was getting nervous now because I had beaten him that was my fifth time that they tried to convict me a trial and runs successful so that was five failures on their part at the same time Megan I met my

wife who's now my wife for 38 years and I basically started to think you know I saw what was going on with the racketeering law guys when I was an MCC when they locked me up without bail they were guys going to trial getting convicted getting 100 years 70 years 150 years I'm the youngest guy out of many of them I

“said they're going to give me 300 years if I ever get convicted this life is”

in trouble I see guys not to become informants I meet my wife I said this is trouble I got to try to make an exit here and so I had leverage over the government because beating them the Julie Annie case gave me some leverage so

we negotiated a plea to I got a 10 year prison sentence 15 million dollars

the tuition five million in four features and went off to do my time and it was it was planning my exit at that time because I figured hey I do a bunch of years in prison but I'd come out I'd have parole and probation I moved out to the West Coast I can't associate with anybody when I was on parole maybe I have to 10 to 12 years the guys will forget about me and I can live happily ever

after with my new wife here in California and that was my original plan that's how I started to make the exit didn't work out exactly that way but eventually it worked out well okay but I got to ask you whether you ever considered you know flipping becoming a rat as they say because there must have been some sort of a deal that would have involved no jail time if you would have helped

Rudy Giuliani as opposed to just admitted you did some things absolutely they offered me when I was taking the plea they offered me no jail time minimum jail time if I would cooperate and I refused they should know you know I just want as part of the plea deal I had not immunity but they couldn't prosecute me for any of my past crimes other than murder and I wasn't worried about that so

because I wanted to try to wrap everything up but my plea deal was no cooperation whatsoever I didn't talk to them didn't do anything what happened was four years later when I was doing my time a fellow by name and Norby Walt is got himself in some trouble and he was my partner I had given him 250,000 to be an agent for sports athletes and long story short he

implicated me in some scheme while I was in prison they brought me into testify against him and I said listen I don't know what he was doing I was

“in prison but yes he was my partner yes I did give him money and that's what I”

testified to well after that happened and that was in Chicago people from the Eastern District came out to see me and they said well you're already a dead man now you got on a stand and you testified I said Norby Walt is was my guy he's not as nothing to do with anybody he's my responsibility nobody's gonna be mad at me for this and said I chased them away I said I'm not cooperating

with you guys I got a few months left to go to to be in prison I'll do my time and come home

Megan I made it I should I will never go against my associates and put

anybody in prison I can't do that so I'm going to be honest with you and John Gliese and verifies this in his book I sat down and talked to them but I basically was able to pull the wool over their eyes because what somebody had told me at the time and it turned out to be true I was dealing with the strike force in the Eastern District and somebody told me they were gonna be

disbanded this is Michael you can talk to these guys it's never gonna go anywhere because they're gonna disband the strike force and so when I started talking to them about certain things a few months later they disbanded the strike force and that was it and they only had a year to talk to me after that they couldn't talk to me anymore sorry this is sorry this I thought this is

“very interesting because I mentioned Sammy the ball and I mean honestly that was”

one of the most interesting interviews I have ever done I mean I have never

had an interview before that had a line like was that before or after the 19th murder I mean this is the conversation he and I had you know you put it all out there was absolutely riveting and I know you guys together in a very interesting series Patrick Beth David did on the mafia went on together it got kind of heated I know you guys I think you get along but in this particular

moment not so much here it is in Sott's 6 ready he cooperated he cooperated with the fucking government words again on his fucking high horse I didn't sense somebody in the prison he meant with the fucking

like that right you're fucking thing about me oh what are you gonna do oh my

gonna do I'll break your fucking ass oh god that I would not have said him just effort like that why I having researched him quite a bit that's not somebody why I'm upset so he's calling you rat but isn't that what Sammy the bull is infamous for well among other things right because he didn't have to serve jail time because he actually did turn he turned on gotty well he served a lot

of jail time I mean they cut it short but listen Sammy and I have friends we did get into a heated moment and I understand what he was trying to do at the time but we patched it up after that because I don't know if you continue that I got up and said Sammy you're nothing on the boss anymore sit down you know so

“we kind of and that's how we kind of ended it but we become friends since then”

listen I'm not you did you know look I like his family very much his son his son calls me up and asked me how do I deal with my daddy driving me crazy you know so it's yeah but we patched it up because you know we both came to realize you know it doesn't benefit even one of us by showing that side of that life or where angry with one another and all of that because there was you

know we'd rather show a different side of that life even though it is what it is

but anyway yeah you know look Megan for me again the bottom line is I didn't

put anybody in prison I didn't testify it any made guys trial I didn't do any of that they tried to get me they put me in solitary for three years trying to break me 29 months and seven days actually they were very upset with me and John police and said in his book about God he says Francis basically took us to the cleaners because we got nothing out of him and you know look but they can

call me a rat or you know that's that's the that's the most widely used term on all of this genre on you know the comments that you get and people that are on YouTube now but hey look well that's the one that I have realized in the wake of my interview with Sammy like you don't want to be called that I mean

“I I know guys who I believe have some sort of a connection who have said nothing”

to me ever about any show I've ever done but after Sammy the bull came on they

started coming out of the woodwork the guys are rat he's a rat and I have always

wondered you know like are they saying that because they're connected or they just understand the code I don't know but that seems to be something taking deadly seriously in the mob oh yeah you know I wanted to think just might be interesting Jopiston Donnie Brasco John I have become very good friends now now I met him once on the street and I was a guy who went undercover and infiltrated

the mob and was portrayed by Johnny Dapp in a movie of the same name keep going correct well we became friends who is on my YouTube I did his and Sammy and I got into a heated about that he said how can you be friend that guy he put so many Italians away and I said he's Sammy I said he was an undercover agent he was doing his job and he did his job better than we did ours you don't get

mad at a guy when they're they're not framing you when they're doing their job and they outgun you that's it you know we used to tell agents on the street hey come after us we get it you're on one side we're on the other just don't frame us get us honestly you have enough tools enough weapons you got all the money in the world at all the time just come after us the right way and

went out mad and you know look Joe Pistone I mean what he did for six years to be undercover and not be noticed by our guys that was a real failure on our part number one and number two it was pretty heroic because at any point in time he could have walked into that room if somebody would have discovered something and he would have been a lot of trouble and it didn't

turn out that way so I mean I didn't get credit for the work that he did and you know if I was on the street I wouldn't be saying that but you know just you know certainly from my vantage point that that guy's a hero right they it takes a lot of courage to infiltrate the mob and try to crime fight and that particularly dangerous manner just for the audience at home here's a

clip from the movie Donnie Brasco where Al Pacino's character Lefty who's in the mob meets Donnie played by Johnny Depp and tries to sell him a diamond I'm asking you to mill a diamond for me now all I want from my end is 8000 what I'm

“saying to you is you should give it to somebody that don't know any better because”

that's a forgase you all right as a forgase how do you know it's a forgase you looked at it for two seconds what is a fake but yeah I know it's a forgase what are you how do you make of this so you don't think that could have really happened or I mean I get it did happen he did infiltrate and you're just saying that those guys were two

careless that they should have caught him yeah I mean they should have did their

himself as an earner sometimes guys eyes open up and hey I can earn money

“with this guy and they get a little bit careless and I do have to say this that”

was Al Pacino in my view that was his best role I knew lefty fairly well and he just nailed he nailed that character so well he was just great really great what did you make of you said you knew Henry Hill that was the Lvraeli out of character and godfather godfather good fellas what did you think of that portrayal because that was I mean I don't know you know everybody loves godfather including me

but good fellas was just such a riveting film where you couldn't you were so pulled in by that character Henry Hill I told you I got to get out of here and straight out everything with Paul he was a dead carrying then you better off staying in here Cameron they could whack me in here just as easy as they can outside they'd be even easier don't afraid I'm gonna wrap them out people are already walking away from me I'm

dead in here you gotta get me out well Megan you know Henry's gone now and I knew Henry well I had kind of an affection to Henry because when he did that whole Boston college you bedding scandal he gave me some tips and I made some money at the

time but Henry never looked so good as he did in that movie that's for sure you know and I

can tell you this I he never walked in the back of the copic abandoned without Paul he was somebody being with him that's for sure he he didn't have that kind of prominence you know unfortunately he had a drinking problem he was an alcoholic and he got into drugs fairly early you know and he had that kind of problem and look he he's he would have got killed there's no question about he wouldn't have lasted on the street because Pauli Vario was who was pretty upset

with him so was Jimmy you know and he did what he did but believe me he was made to look great in that movie mm oh but well I mean it was based on his book right which I'm sure also made him look great and then Hollywood takes it next level so and of course Ray Leod is gone too

which is sad what about these guys you know there's a question about whether any of them is actually

in the mob whether there's any sort of a connection whether it's Dineiro Pachino did these guys have any sort of a relationship I mean for Sinatra we've heard we've heard yes well you know not that they were like a sort of a crew or anything like that did they have relationships

“I mean Pauli Serrico I think you know he you know he you know he was involved at one point”

time then became an actor they will have relationships Jimmy Khan you know is very close with my one-time captain with Andrew Russo very close um the uh what was his name oh gosh Lenny Montana who played look abroad and the godfather was very close with me very close you know and he was we were together out here on the west coast before he passed away so a lot of guys had relationships but again you know we were all over the place so we met with a lot of people and you know we had

a lot of relationships no doubt so you find yourself in prison now 10 years and at the time you were in prison your dad was still in prison and the relationship broke down was that because of the thing you just told us about where you did wind up testifying in that one case is that what turned him on you? No it wasn't that um what happened was when I was in I was in I was in terminal Island prison out in California and the warden had told me other associate warden I don't

“remember exactly and said this a reporter that's doing a story on you in life magazine and I think”

20 years earlier they had done the biggest story ever on my dad in life magazine it was like 29 pages it was on his mercation it was a huge story right so this reporter now is doing a story on me so I'm in prison and he tells the warden if if Michael talks to me it'll be a better story so I'm trying to make my exit I'm trying to get the government off my back I want to get out of there and have no trouble I just married this young girl so I sit down with them and I tell them

standard mob stuff there is no mafia I married this girl I'm living out in the west coast and all this kind of stuff I'm done with anything back in New York well the the article comes out the warden calls me into the office he says Francis you have a death wish as what are you talking about he shows me the article and it was a big double page with a picture of me and on the top quitting the mafia and I'm in guy in jail with other mob guys and this guy had doing everything

but testifying at the time it's really and that's when words started to drop that hey maybe this guy is going bad what's going on then the government comes in to see me again you know defense come in and they say Francis you know this is a bad article you better cooperate with us we got word from our informants people are upset with you then they you know what they didn't make it was really dirty they put my name on the witness list of certain trials that will come

but you know everybody says that and then you see him on the witness stand or you get their informed discovery I mean that happened to me you know so they really really tried to put a lot

of pressure on me at the time my dad kind of backed off but you know he never really totally backed

off you know Megan what happened with me and my dad know I'll summarize this I got called into what one of the horrors of that life you make a mistake your best friend walks you into a room you don't walk out again and obviously throughout my years I know when that's occurred well I got that call because there was an article came out I think it was in Long Island press that I was becoming powerful enough to break away from the clombo stop my own family they had me making

$2 billion a year was a total fictional article did no basis in reality at all but I get called into a room one night and I was scared I said wow the way the circumstances were I thought

“I can get killed walking into that room that's how I felt now it's scary I'll be honest with you you”

know when you think you're gonna meet your maker it's scary and I knew the life and so I'm sitting down there and I'm getting grilled on how much money is coming in $2 billion and I said hey you know they lie about everybody now they make a story about me and it's true I said what do you listen to I'm handing in every day well my father wasn't there but he was called in before me and what I found out that night is that he didn't help me in that meeting he actually hurt me

because what he did instead of standing up for me he said I'm on parole I don't the one he think my son handles everything of if anything's wrong I don't know so he kind of threw me under the bus and I can tell you this Megan I didn't meet my wife until two years later but I really believed I was stunned when I found that out and it was true because I said man if this life can separate me and my dad what do I really have here and I just filed it away I didn't say anything you don't

you don't speak out of turn in that life and you don't share your thoughts with people because you

never know but I can say this if I didn't have that meeting I don't think I mean if that didn't

occur I don't think I would have ever walked away from the life because I think that bond between me my dad had to be broken and I had to get a sense of reality and you know I didn't hate him for it when it finally came that he confronted me on it because he read it in my book I wasn't going to sing anything but then it was such an impact on my life I said no I have to be honest about this so I put it on my book that's where he read and he denies it and I said dad remember you

taught me something in life and he said what you said no matter what denied denied denied denied denied denied I said I know you're denying this now but it's okay I love you I'm not mad I get it I understand

“but that had such an impact on me that I think two years later when I met my wife that's what”

really kind of put the you know the icing on the cake as I say for me to walk away what did your dad because he at last we left off in his story he was going to jail until he was a hundred so you say he's on parole what happened he did he get out yeah he gets out at in 2017 at the age of one hundred he was the oldest inmate in the system at the time and my dad passed away at a hundred and three during the pandemic he was the oldest living mob guy

for sure at that time and probably probably the oldest guy in the world guys don't live to that age in that life it's not conducive to a long life right right yeah it was amazing and you know we patched it up I mean I stayed with him visited him during that during that time the relationship

was never exactly the same but he accepted what I did because he knew I never heard anybody

and you know there was another situation came up making where you know a guy became an informant and the feds came to me again he implicated me in some things and they wanted me to cooperate with him and I said no and I told my father I said dad look if I were to cooperate a lot of guys are going to go down I'm not going to do that just told him to leave me alone because I had people upset with me there was a contract on my life from my former boss because he took

it very personal when I walked away he was really upset with me but that back to everybody off because I said I'm not hurting anybody just lean me alone I just want to go my own yeah there's nobody leaves the mob like you you you stay in it till your dead one more of the other and you found a way out talk about thread in the needle so yeah I know you've spoken about when you were in jail there was a prison guard who walked by yourself and gave you something

“that I think was the beginning of your transformation what was it? Well yeah I mean I had done five”

years I'm out on parole 13 months worse 13 months in my life people are trying to hurt me feds are all over me I'm trying to get my life reorganized in LA I was like a fish out of water

me up again and at first night they told me we're going to indict you on another racketeering case

we violated your parole you'll never see the street again is what they told me and they thrown

me in a hole in MDC in LA and they're going to transport me back to Brooklyn in the morning and quite honestly Megan it was it was the worst night in my life because I said wow I said another case what do they bring it up now number one number two I'm married to this girl she waited for me five years we have two little babies she's 27 years old I'm going to lose the girl I did all of this for I said they can't put me out on the yard there's people talk to people want to kill me I'm

gonna spend the rest of my life and it's six by eight sell having visited my dad for 20 years and seeing what it did I said you know what I wish I could just close my eyes and not wake up and that's how I felt and you know honestly I used to demean people that were suicidal it was called and weak can't face up to their troubles I don't do that anymore now I wasn't suicidal that night but I can understand how you can reach a low point in your life where is your worth even going forward

“now of course I'd dissuade anybody from suicide but I know how that feeling was that's how I”

felt that night and yeah prison guard walked by my cell and she's Francis you okay you don't look good I chased them away I should get away from me leave me alone I want to see any of you guys tonight and he came back with a with a Bible and pushed it through the slide on the door and I spent the next 29 months and seven days in solitary six by eight so 24/7 meeting God and it was doing that time Megan that I not only studied my Bible inside out the upside down I had my wife send

me in several books and on every faith I was studying every faith because I said if I'm gonna spend the rest of my life in this cell I want to know where I'm going at the end of the room and I just came out of this strongly believing in Christianity wow that guard was like an angel

I mean truly like delivering the word of God to you and and it doesn't always happen but it

took like you heard it and you acted I it changed you so would you say you know you because you met Camille who I know has been such a game changer in your life you know between Camille the Bible a renewed faith or maybe a brand new faith in God how then did you come to see this other version of yourself this other possibility for how your life could be well you know what I found out

“there's two things in life that are so important number one is I always say this and I I”

try to mentor a lot of young people I go into you know prisons and juvenile halls and spoken many men's ministries and I told him you are who you hang out within this life if you hang with the wrong crowd don't to be the wrong type of person and they will influence you you know I'm on the street obviously I was influenced and that's the person who I was and I'm not blaming the others I'm just saying that's we're all in the same boat in that regard and secondly is

accountability is everything in life who you are accountable to is going to dictate the path that you serve in your life on the street accountable to my oath my God my my boss I was a criminal so when I come out now I'm accountable to God first accountable to my wife and children not to screw up so I end up back in prison because I will say this look you can take the boy out of Brooklyn you

can't always take Brooklyn out of the boy there's a lot of times when I could react the wrong way

because I still have certain instincts inside of me but I catch myself most of the time and I should know I can't do that because I'm jeopardizing the people around me and the people that I love and so I don't want to make them sick it's like look I'll say this I say this in church Megan I have no moral issue whatsoever with taking money from the government in taxes no moral issue whatsoever because I can do better with the money now than they can no doubt about it they

throw all money in a toilet after time but I won't do it because I'm not going to jeopardize my freedom again I'm not going to jeopardize my wife and kids and my grandkids so you just have a different outlook and I believe you know in Christianity we believe that we're changed from the inside out when you develop a relationship with the Lord he's changing you from inside out it's not

“your work on the outside that's doing it and that's why it's so important to be nourished it's so”

important to you know to read the word as often as you possibly can you can never get enough of it and hang out with people that have the same beliefs as you and and that's what's done it for me I mean I don't want to tribute it to my work I think I'm probably the most fortunate most blessed person around because I should either be dead in prison for the rest of my life that's what I earned but for some reason you're like your dad you're what 71 years old now you look amazing you look

young you seem vibrant like you're probably having other 30 years at least but well it's probably related to your good choices in your second half yeah I think I'm 72 and you know my wife I have

and personal trainers my wife that's been her lifestyle so they don't allow me to get off

“track in that regard so yeah and I think we have some good DNA I mean my dad was one of 19 kids”

and all of the kids died in their late 80s 90s my dad out lived them all but you know so we have some good DNA also so you know I think that's part of it so I just gotta watch yourself alright I gotta ask it this because I know you're on the straight and narrow now and you found God but you ever have the moment you know where you have like the nasty clerk at the store or where you're like if you if you only knew like just you know like just watch it oh absolutely

Megan happens quite a bit and let me tell you something yes it would have to keep going oh my gosh

I'm on social media and some of the comments that come in you wanted like jump through the computer Adam you know and get it but it's crazy so yeah I have those moments you know absolutely it's like I said you know you don't you don't get a lobotomy when you when you come to Christ you just you

“just try to you know tell you behavior the right way and and you know and I think older when”

you get older too you start to calm down a bit at least I don't know about Sammy but with me yeah he honest like I couldn't believe he he talk he had a very different experience as you know because he he he he he was murdering a lot of people and he talked to us about the story the first the first murder he committed and it was someone he knew it was someone he was like kind of close to

we actually pulled the clip um I'll play it it's not five because I never thought about killing people

but uh I went through it we did it one night we went out to f-thousand clubs we got into car about four o'clock in the morning and as we drove away I shot him in the back of the twice I didn't feel any remorse I didn't feel anything and I thought that was peculiar I thought in the sun things wrong on me or I'm just a stone cold killer and I'm gonna fit in the mouth for your perfectly mm such an interesting man and I asked him like you know what do you ever think

about God heaven judgment and he said God made me a lion you made me the way I am I've thought about it so many times I've talked to my friends about it like it I've done so many interviews of course right like that it takes a lot for one to stand out and for obvious reasons his did but how do you factor that in you know your redemption your relationship with Christ now and atonement you know Megan again and I thought about this quite a bit and I had a very

interesting meeting with Jordan Peterson who is so and a little really and he asked me you know he he dealt he said Michael how did you do certain things that you did and I said well you know Jordan I didn't feel good about it I said but I knew I had to do it so I would kind of step outside of myself and handle what I had to handle very efficiently and then come back to who I was and Jordan looked at me and he says well how do you know who's the real you and I said whoa I said

“you know what Jordan that's a good question I never thought of that but that's how I dealt with”

certain things that were uncomfortable for me to do but the fact that you're able to do them I don't know what that says Megan quite honestly but you know the last thing that I was going to have anybody say about me was that I didn't perform or I didn't follow an order or I didn't do what I was supposed to do so that's that's how I dealt with it differently than Sammy obviously but look there was guys in that life you know I say this all the time you talk about a right domain I'm sure

you heard his name maybe a great scarf up this was said these was saying killers they were serial killers they they would have been killers even if they weren't in the mafia the mafia didn't turn them into that that's who they were you can't be that kind of person and say well the mob made me do it no you got to be that person and obviously if the experience might be enhanced because that's a lifestyle that things like that occur but it didn't make you that way that's who you were and I think I think

was she just summed it up he said I'd be perfect for the mob but this is he figured that out that this is who he was and he'd be a perfect guy to be in that life for the listening audience that was episode 352 from July of 2022 if you want to go back and listen to it 352 so so then so you've been

created whole family your motivational speaker so what are what are the big takeaways for you you know and yet you talk to people and these motivational speeches and you talk to your grandkids like what are the biggest things you've learned from this life well you know when you're determined then you have the right support you know the right people around you and obviously for me it's it's also fair to you sure you can come out of a bad situation it's not easy and you know I

may have had an advantage because like I said I surrounded myself with the right people and but I think the message that I that resonates all the time and I've done probably over 2000 speaking engagements is that if I came out of a tough situation you can also and that's where people want to hear they love a redemption story many people are struggling out there and it doesn't matter what walk of life I've spoken to the most absolutely people and then obviously people that you

know or are in almost poverty stricken themselves and everybody is struggling with something and they want to know how to overcome it and I think my story resonates in that regard because people do believe you don't walk away from that life without entering a witness protection program

“and going through the whole you know or deal that you have to go through and the fact that I was”

able to do that you know raise the family have a wife and children have a career and a profession I think it's motivating to people and you know it's amazing you know no matter where I go you

know I always open it up but quite often as you say open it up for Q&A and you would think

all the stories and all the questions rather are mob related they're not the questions are how did you do this how did your wife react why did she stay with you what about your kids what kind of an impact did it have on them you know so I understand that so many of the questions become personal the reason being because those people are either dealing with something in their life or they know somebody that's dealing with something hmm you know that's a good point

and it's really one of those like no matter what you're dealing with it's almost guaranteed it's not quite as tricky as what Michael was dealing with I mean very very tricky to get out of the mob with your life secured and returned to your family and a life above board you know without crossing that criminal line after so many years on the opposite side it's it's a magician type move what about today I mean the mafia was really undermined by prosecutors like Rudy Giuliani but

it's not gone so how do you how is it today do you know and you know what's its status

well I can tell you you know I always say this the golden years of cousin Ostromopy in this

country really from the late 40s early 50s right through to the mid 80s when again we know what happened and you know that was a time when I was in New York dealing with New York post New York Times news day every single day or every other day story about the mob what out of that one family or another who's getting busted every other day now I read the

“New York post every morning maybe every six months so it's my fact I think last week 10”

guys got busted or something like that so they've gone on to cover it's not nearly what it was during my time I know that for a fact but it seems like they're getting smarter you know you don't dare too many guys on surveillance tapes and things like that it's not going to go away in my lifetime but you know another thing I've learned things happen in patterns when I was on the street to head 1,400 agents that were assigned to all five families we had 750 approximately

made guys guys that took the oath you had almost two agents for every made guy now I believe this less than 100 why because terrorism has become you know more important right now and the focus on that so when things like that happen and somebody heat comes off these guys are pretty resourceful and they start to build up again and then they'll be a time possibly when you know they come down hard again because we're seeing the government is seeing more impact that the guys on the

street are having I don't know you know this time it might be that it was seriously wounded to the

point where it'll never recover to what it was before but I don't sell them short I'm not saying

it's over but that's the pattern that I see you know that I've seen it curl over the years and last but not least Rudy Giuliani you know we talked just a bit I made a reference to how his public image has changed there's no question he has changed himself personally he said some

“personal problems but you know many of us remember what he did in New York and how he behaved”

after 9/11 and what kind of a mayor he was and factor all of that in in sizing up his legacy how

with him I just know that he was a tremendous prosecutor at the time again he was my enemy

“but you have to give him his due he did what he said he was going to do and he used the laws”

very very effectively and more than that for me his legacy was the mayor of New York you know when I got you know violated and the marshals came and picked me up and it would bring in me into uh to get in front of the judge was in the early 90s it was 91 I think uh we were in the car and it should Mike we got a little time before we have to appear in court what do you want to do I should I've been out in New York for a while I should have won two things I like a cup of duck and

doughnuts coffee and let's go around Manhattan haven't seen it a while and I could not believe time square and how Rudy had cleaned it up I mean I grew up with that being smudged city and I was like amazed and I said wow this guy really did do a job here you know so I was fascinated by that you know so that's to me that's his legacy I look at you know him as a prosecutor the job that he did

“and and the mayor of New York kind of course I have to 9/11 he was tremendous so to me that's how I”

remember him. Thank you so much for telling your story and for finding a way forward and setting the example for others who have struggled in any number of ways all the best to you. Well Megan thanks for having me and uh like I said I've been watching you since your days and folks and I appreciate uh just your honesty and the way you you know you just carry yourself and bring things out it's uh for me it's uh it's really a joy to see so thank you. Oh I'm flattered it's

so nice to meet you to be continued. We have a fascinating program for you today one filled with crime murder money and betrayal. Today we're talking to one of the most infamous mobsters in American history Salvador Gravano otherwise known as Sammy the Bull to understand his story we have to take a step back in time to the early 1970s when the godfather hit the big screen and changed the perception of the mafia in America. It's been time with your family sure I do good but some man that doesn't

spend time with his family because I would be a real man you look power once a day once you're the rest well and the month will not is I would make sure it's gonna give you what you want. It's too late they started shooting in the week. I want to make them an offer again reviews. At about that same time Gravano a kid who grew up without mob connections in his family

slowly eased into across the no-strap and made his first kill. Over the course of the next two

decades Sammy the Bull would rise up the ranks of New York's notorious Gambino crime family breaking in millions upon millions of dollars and repeatedly killing. He has admitted to 19 murders in all including his own brother-in-law his best friend and the Gambino family mob boss Paul Castellano in 1985 deadly messages from organized crime to organized crime and the rest of society the murder of Gambino crime family boss Paul Castellano yesterday on the 1979 assassination of

Koso-Nostradon Carmine Galente. Unsaw very public executions by an underworld that plays by their own rules and their own code of justice. The Castellano murder particularly brazen and defiant since Castellano was gunned down a day before he was to resume standing trial for auto theft and murder. Organized crime had served up its own sentence. By the late 1980s the new Don John Gotti had named Sammy the Bull his right hand man. Gotti himself with a was a ruthless mobster and media

darling who dressed in expensive suits and enjoyed the finer things in life, earning him the nickname the Dapper Don. He also repeatedly escaped conviction with as it would turn out Sammy's help

“which we'll get to earning him another nickname the Teflon Don. Remember how they use that”

about Donald Trump while it was first about John Gotti. But in 1991 everything changed. John Gotti

and Sammy the Bull were behind bars facing a slew of charges when Sammy decided to flip and do the unthinkable cooperate with the feds. At the time he was the highest ranking gangster to break his blood oath, earning him the eyeer of mob officials who dubbed him a rat. Not since Jovellachi in the 60s has such a high ranking member of the mob turn trader. Sammy the Bull Gravano now joins

Sammy's testimony helped San John Gotti away for good. The Teflon is gone. The Don is covered with

“Velcro and every charge in the indictment stuck. And resulted in dozens of other mobsters going”

to prison as well. One top FBI agent says that testimony by Sammy led to the demise of organized crime in New York. Since then there have been numerous books and movies made about the Gambino crime family and while some may still consider Sammy equal rat hundreds of thousands of people are curious fans of his, subscribing to his podcast launched right around the time our own did called our thing, which is what Kozenostra means. In fact, his YouTube channel alone has more

than 77 million views. Sammy the Bull Gravano, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.

Thank you. Thank you. It's a pleasure. So let me start with this after that background. How are you

“still upright? Like how are you still walking around on two feet?”

Well, the mafia changed quite a bit. It doesn't do certain things and people understand the story. What happened? That word rat. I mean, they use that. They do that all the time. But in my case, I was offered that position to cooperate a bunch of times. I was arrested all my life.

I never cooperated. I was facing life in a number of different cases. But what it came to John

Gotti, I was arrested in 1991 with him. And after 11 months, the worst 11 months I've ever done in prison, I've been in prison 22 years of my life. But he wanted me to take the weight so he can go

“free. He was going to back up the tapes that the government had. And most of those tapes were all”

lies about me killing union people and taking over or killing my partners and taking over. None of that was true. But he thought that he would have the lawyers back up those tapes and turn around in a way to say, "Well, do you hear John complaining about him?" It's not a John Paul. He would be set free and I would go to prison. He had the bolts to actually tell me this to my face. And that's when I walked away from him, the mafia, and whatever would happen would happen.

I wasn't afraid of it.

Now, let me just jump in because we'll get to that in detail in just a bit. But what you're basically

saying is that you felt he was going to sell you up the river and you sold him up the river first. But is that why you don't think anybody has tried to seek retribution? I mean, I understand there's been at least one attempt on your life since your testimony against him allegedly by a family member of John Godys. But is that it? Because you did witness protection. You did all that. Can't imagine nobody else has tried to come get you.

Well, there was a team that came down when John Godys was away. Peter Godys, his brother, became the boss. He put together a team to come down and kill me. They found me. They were afraid to even come near me. And they were devised all kinds of plans, a bomb, then this thing that spins around and shoots shotgun shells and that didn't work. Nothing worked. And I got arrested again in in 2000 February of 2000 and it didn't get done. When I got arrested, I had in my apartment,

I had five guns, four guns planted in different places. In my kitchen, in my bathroom, my living room, I expected them to come down and I had one on me all the time. I was actually waiting for it to happen. And they worked with meetings with people, some of people were my crew. One of them was my brother with Eddie Garafola. And they knew me and they knew I wouldn't run from it. And they were

would imprison again, that part of it was over. So there wasn't attempt. They found me, but it didn't work out for them. And you worked out for me. As I said, you're doing a podcast now and so on. Are you

“at all in hiding? I mean, is it something that do you need to keep your whereabouts unknown?”

No, I think the whole country knows where I am. I'm not in hiding. I said, I went into the witness protection program. I didn't want to go into the program. I had money. I didn't want to go in.

I did only five years on my first hit. My first pinch. And the government begged me to go in

that they would look terrible if I refused and didn't go in. And we had meetings and they said, you know, you got a great sentence. Give us something, come into the program. I agreed to go into the program for a year. I did eight months in the program. Something came up with woman recognized me and they wanted me to start over again. I said, no, I'm not starting over again. I promised a year. I'll give you a year. It's four more months. It didn't. They wanted to start over. And I

quit and walked away. I went to Phoenix where my family was and I stayed there for about another

four and a half years before I got busted again. Since I got out, I got out in 2017.

This all started by wife. My daughter did a book. I did a book when I got out in 1996. And she wanted to do a book. We couldn't sell the book. And then somebody came to her about a podcast. And she said, would you work for me? And because we're divorced. And give me the right to

“use you to do a podcast. And I said, of course, I'll help you. And I started. That's how I started.”

A year after that, or maybe a little bit more than a year, two years after that, my son put me on Facebook. A little while after that, he put me on YouTube. I'm being known to me. I didn't even know it. My phone, I was getting all kinds of calls. And my son left one day. It's a guy. I put you on Facebook. I put you on YouTube. And that's what the calls are about. So I just stayed on that. And I continued the podcast on that. And it grew

to big numbers. I'm almost out of half a million subscribers. And I got 77, 78 million

views. And now I'm doing a whole bunch of other things. And a lot of, I was reading and preparing for this, a lot of men and women in law enforcement, in particular FBI agents, watch and listen to

“the podcast and the YouTube show. Because they say it's fascinating. They've never been able to get”

this sort of an insight into a real life mobsters thinking. And you talk openly about the crimes that were committed by yourself, by others. A lot of these guys who are covering you or on you back then are listening, thinking, oh my god, this is helping me put things together. So it's just the whole, all around you, obviously you have immunity now for those crimes given the deal you struck with the government. But it's a fascinating thing to think about the FBI agents who once

tracked you and guys you worked with. Now listening to you and our fans of the show, I mean, actually fans of the show. So let me, let me pause you there and let's go back. Let's start with you as a kid. Because as I mentioned in the intro, you were not raised in a family where your dad was in the mob and your granddad was in the mob. This was not foretold. As I understand it, your dad was fairly successful. You had a nice family and it wasn't, you had some difficulties as a

child, but it wasn't related to anything in terms of crime or the mob. No, my mother and father were totally legitimate. My mother was a seamstress. My father was a painter. He got back then they used to use lead in paint. He got lead poisoning. He had a stay away from painting. My mother got an offer from a Jewish contractor. She would go and make the clothes, women's clothes. And the guy told the Katy, you're great. Open up a little factory and I'll get you work.

If you could produce, you know, the quality of work that you do will give you our work. And that's exactly what she did. My father jumped in with her to help her. And they worked together. They had a dress factory and that's what they did. I had two sisters.

was an engineer. The other brother-in-law was a plumbing contract. Later on he came

“in the mafia. What made me became a made member. But before that, before I was in the mafia,”

I had no relation to the mafia whatsoever. But in Benson House Brooklyn, it was saturated with the mafia. So it was on every street corner. It was around. As a kid growing up, I was dyslexic. I didn't do good in school. I got left back in the fourth grade.

The seventh grade. I had nothing. My problems in school. I got thrown out. I never got past the

eighth grade. And I was in a gang. And we stayed away from the mafia. We knew who they were. We knew they would dangerous. So we stayed away from them. It was us against the world. And we didn't want to let them out. And at 19 years old, I got drafted. And I went into the military during the Vietnam War. I spent two years there. And when you were drafted, you got two years. If you joined, you had to do three. I did two. I came out and went right back into a gang.

And this guy, why? Why? Because I would think I would like to think that a couple years in the army would instill a moral code in you that would give you some pause about going back into a life of crime.

“Well, it wasn't into a life of crime. It was back into being in the gang. That's what I know.”

The only thing I know, I was taught how to kill and how to do things in the military. And I would kill people to protect the country. There was gave us that bullshit. That it was communism. It was common hair. It could rape your mother, your sisters. And so I was brainwashed a

little bit by the government. I mean, I never met a bad Vietnamese person. The only people I know

who have Vietnamese do my nails or my toenails. And it just seemed to be nice people. I've never met Vietnamese people in prison. So maybe they're good crooks. So I think the whole thing was bullshit. So I went right back into the into a gang. But I'm being known to me while the two years I was gone. Most of my friends hooked up with different mafia families. And they were hooked up with somebody. One of my friends taught me sphero. I said, my uncle wants to talk to you. His name was Shorty Sphero.

He was in a notorious crew, Carmine Percico. There was a war going on at that time between the gallows and the profacci. And there was different sides. The war stopped for a while. So when I got hooked up with them, there was no war going on. I knew sooner or later they killed people that I would be cold. That's where I did my first murder. It's a long story. I would tell you if you want to hear it. But I did my first piece of work there. And then Shorty, after that, told me, Sammy,

give it your clothes. Joe Gallo came out of prison. He said, go get your clothes. We're going to hit

the mattresses. I didn't even know what that meant back then. It wasn't a million movies. And he said,

there are pack of wolves. Where are pack of wolves? We're going to live together. If you have a girlfriend get rid of her. If you got a job, stop. You're going to live with us 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

“And we're going to hunt them, they're going to hunt us. And that's what you have to do from this point on.”

And that's how beginnings of your time in organized crime. That wasn't just the gang. That was one of the five New York crime families. Yes, it became the Columbo. It was a proprietary family, a proprietary died. And they made Joe Columbo the boss. So when I got in, Joe Columbo was the boss. My first hit was ordered from Joe Columbo to combine persego to Shorty to me. And it was somebody in our crew who was plotting to kill Shorty and me. And his wife was having the affair with Shorty's

nephew. And he devised a plot to kill Shorty and me to cause confusion. A couple of months later, at six months later, he would kill Tommy Spiro. He went to somebody Frankie who was in the crew and asked for his help. Frankie instead of helping him went to Shorty and told him about the plot. That's how the whole thing happened. Now, just to take a step back, you mentioned you had dyslexia

your life as well. And one of those incidents led to your nickname, Sammy the bull. They tried to steal your bike. You didn't go, let it go peacefully. You were scrappy. And these monsters saw you fighting and said, look at this kid. And they nicknamed you, Sammy the bull. Now jumping forward now to this point, you may have stood up to bullies, but you didn't go to Vietnam when you were serving in 1964. So you hadn't killed anybody, whether in military uniform or otherwise at this point. So when they say

to you, you're going to kill this guy. Is it scary? Is it frightening? Is it daunting? Or is it all business at that point even as a young man at this point? Well, it was scary. I had a couple of incidents

that were scary that I was going to would have used the gun. I never did. But when that came,

I knew it would come sooner or later. So the story, I heard the story, what it was, I thought I was being bullshitted a little bit. You know, that the guy wanted to kill me. I couldn't understand why he wanted to kill me. I had nothing to do with his wife and his affair. But he had this stupid little plot, like I just said. And when they gave me the order, they said, who do you want to come with you? And I said, you're nothing, Tommy Spiro. He created this monster. And then I

wanted the guy Frankie, because I couldn't understand why he didn't tell me. And I wanted to be able to talk to him about that. So they put those two people on the hip web me. And you know, I watched a movie one time and it's a person who was about to kill. And he was sweating and scared. And all

“of this stuff, I thought that's what happens to you before you commit this kind of a crime,”

because I never thought about killing people. But I went through it. We did it. One night,

we went out to F.I.O. clubs. We got in the car about four o'clock in the morning. And as we drove away, I shot him in the back of the head twice. You were in the back of the car? I was in the back seat. Where was he? He was in the front seat, the passenger seat. And when we went to a spot, we went out of the neighborhood, we pulled into a nice community. It was miles away from Brooklyn, Rockaway, and they had nice homes and quiet. We drove over there.

I took my pick them up out of the car. And I put them on the street, the sidewalk. I got in the car. I opened the window, I put the gun out. And I shot him three more times. We got back. We went to the neighborhood, we cleaned the car. We got rid of the gun. And we were living together a bunch of guys. I wanted to take a shower. I stayed in the shower quite a little time. The water running on me. And it was waiting for this thing to happen, being nervous and sweating and it couldn't happen.

Nothing happened. And I went to bed. I slept like a baby. I got up the next morning. There was confusion. Some of the young girls who stood with us. Oh my God,

“they killed Joe Colucci and Rockaway. And I remember asking one of the girls.”

Didn't know who did it. Did they find out who did it? She said, no, it wasn't. It's in the papers already, but it's not in the papers. I don't know if they caught the people a lot. And I remember we all went to the corner where we stayed. And I hadn't had a body experience that I felt like I was above somewhere looking down and listening to all that I'm talking. And I felt absolutely nothing. And then shorty came with his nephew Tommy Spiro. And I came back to reality. And they said,

"Come on, I'm going to go on to talk to you." So we got in the car when we went down there. But that was the daddy of us? Excuse me?

“Carmine, I'm going to go at that point, was that family's boss?”

No, he was a captain, but a very, very powerful captain. He was leading the war against the gallows.

And so I went down and met with him. I was told not to talk. I didn't talk. Tommy Spiro explained

and he told me, "Great job." So, and I didn't feel anything. I went to the funeral.

And I didn't feel any remorse. I didn't feel anything. And I thought that was peculiar. I thought, "In the sun, there's wrong with me, or I'm just a stone cold killer." And I'm going to fit in the mafia perfectly. And I guess I, when I became, not a stone cold killer. I was good at what I did. I was good at what I did in a lot of ways, in construction, running unions. But I was also becoming a professional head guy.

“Have you ever used or been a man of faith prior to that? Have you ever gone to church?”

Did you have any relationship with God?

No, of course. I still, I believe in God. I don't. I went to church as a kid. I stopped going to church. I believe, you know, in prison, I joined the Indians because I wanted a smoke. And you'd have to join their religion and they allow that in prison in the federal prisons. So I joined them. I went in to get tobacco to you. You weren't allowed to smoke from 2004. I went in really wanting smoke and steal something tobacco and bring it to myself. But I got to understand

their religion, the way they believe in God. I also, at one point, a friend of mine grabbed me,

“and said, "Sam, you're not an Indian. We do Wikka. Why don't you join our group?"”

And I did. I joined their group as well. So I started to understand different religions and everybody seems to believe in God. They're just a path what path you want to take to get to God. Indians have it. Wikka has it. Muslims have it. Jews have it. Catholics have it. Christians have it. It's just a path. And I believe there are moments back then, you know, when you're talking about being in the shower and no remorse,

I wonder whether there was any moment of, no matter what I feel, I recognize I've crossed over. I've done something, I've sinned in the most profound way possible. And at some point,

there will be a price to pay. No. No, I don't look at it that way. I never felt that way.

I still don't think that way. I think that God makes people, creates people, and he creates

“lions and he creates lambs. I think I'm a lion. And whatever you have to pay, if you have to pay”

anything, why would he create a lion? If there was a god and he was interested in what was going on, why do little kids get cancer and die? Why a little kids get raped? Why do so many things happen? And talking about religions, I mean, I was a Catholic brought up that way, baptized, communion, confirmation. Till I found out what priests do. And I had no intention of committee or my crimes to talk to him. I was asked that once by a priest that I told him, "Yeah, you want me to tell

you what I do? Tell me what you do." And then I'll talk to you about what I do. So I don't believe in religion, I believe in God, but I think religion is bullshit. I think it's all about money, it's all about different things. They commit evil things to good people. So I'm away from religions. I respected the Indian religion, the wicked religion, it's stunning. It's the only religion that they put a woman above God. The goddess of the moon, the water and the earth. God is the

goddess of the forests and the mountains. Why do they put a woman above God? Because she creates life. She needs a man's seat, but she in her womb takes care of life. And then gives birth and creates life. I understand that. I'm somebody with common sense. If you make sense to me in a certain way, I understand that. So I understood that religion now. A lot of people will not be happy with me saying this, but because they call it a pagan religion and they call it all kinds of things.

It was before the Christian even. And I understand that part about a woman giving birth

all this. You went home and had dinner with your wife and your two kids each night. Your daughter

“Karen has talked about that publicly many times. So there has been this respect for your family”

members for your wife or your daughter in a way that even the people who were in the mob said, you know, for example, John Gotti would go out curousing with other women after hours and you would go home to your family. That piece of your commitment of your life, you know, you honored despite what was happening on the other front. And I know that you don't see these as real as murders. You know, in the same way a soldier doesn't commit a murder when he kills somebody. This is how an FBI agent

explained it in one public interview that a soldier would not be murdering. You don't see your kills as murders because there was a code behind them because you say the people you killed

“had sort of agreed to live by this code and die by this code. And on that note that heavy”

note, let me pause it. Okay, because I want to get into that next and that's a whole other chapter for us. So stand by. Let me squeeze in a commercial break and much, much more, with Sammy the bold Gravano as he stays with us for the whole show, fascinating story to tell. For Sammy, it was actually a quote that I was reading, uh, not from an FBI agent. It was from Terrence Winter, who the audience may know is the executive producer of the sopranos and he also

did boardwalk empire. And he was, uh, he took part in a documentary about you and said the following. Many mobsters consider what they do almost military in nature. They consider themselves soldiers. So they rationalize a lot of really bad behavior. You wouldn't think about calling a soldier at war a murderer. So therefore, if they're a soldier and they're at war, they're not murderers either.

“They're just doing their job. Does that capture the mentality?”

I believe so. I 100%. You know, I watched a program one time during World War II. We dropped an atom bomb, an atomic bomb, an atom bomb twice, not once twice. But I saw the guy who was in the plane and over Hiroshima or somewhere, any press to button. And it killed 100,000 people.

Men, women and children in a split second. And they were patting them on the back that he did a great

job. The war was ended early because of those things. And um, if I was talking to the guy, I would say, listen, you did a great job, a great military guy, you fought for the country. You did what you was supposed to do. How do you feel now knowing you just killed 100,000 people, men, women and children? Does that bother you at all? And I'm sure he would tell me no. Because he was fighting for the country. He was fighting for what he thought was right. In the mafia, it's part of it's not a gang

no more. It's part of my heritage. It came from Italy, Sicily, it started in Sicily. And it came to this country. So it's part of my heritage. So it's not just a gang. A gang is, you know, killing in a gang or doing certain things for a drug supply is a different thing. But this is a soldier. It was explained to me I was involved in the Johnny Keys hit was a major major hit. And it was, he was a guy who had 50 hits under his belt and me and him were going to go out each other.

And it was explained to me that we were like two summarized. Now, understand his summarized different things than us. They're actually more violent than us. But I really felt that way that we were two summarized who met on the battlefield. What about can I say a couple of followups on that? So obviously, when we brought the bomb at the end of World War II, they asked

me that we saved somewhere upwards of 25, 30 million lives by putting an end to World War II.

When the Japanese would not surrender. And so, you know, it's not defending the killing of 100,000 people exactly. But in a way, I am because it was the right decision. It saved far more lives and it actually cost. But in the, in the mafia, and I can get it if I go away. Let me let me answer your question. Let me answer that question. The people who say that it saved 25 to 30 million lives

a look who've taken a look at this ad nauseam since the end of World War II will tell you that the

“the lives saved far, far outnumbered the lives cost. It doesn't make it not controversial. But you can't”

talk about it without adding that perspective. But I mean, the thing about the mafia and I can understand if a guy was going to kill you, you mean, even the law recognizes maybe not exactly the way that you would do it. But what recognizes the right to self defense. But, you know, it seems like it was a whole criminal justice system that you guys agreed to, where, you know, you, you sleep with the guy's wife, you could get whacked. You, you interfere with my business, you could

get whacked. It basically is just whatever the head of the crime family wants. And the guy doesn't

show up like a samurai face to face in a meeting where you fight it out to the death. He just gets in the car with you. He gets whacked in the back of the head. So I'm interested in the moral you know, the way you thought about those kind of differences morally. Well, morally, I don't know if it's to me. If it makes a difference, if you kill somebody on a battlefield or you kill somebody in the car or whether you use a gun or whether you use a knife

or whether you use poison, that is that you just took a life. It doesn't matter how you take. You can beat somebody in the death. You couldn't fight. You could win a fight. You can go overboard and just beat this person to death. So you just took a life. No matter how it is, whether it's more glory about a meal or a meal. Yeah, that means of how you're doing it. I don't know if it makes any difference. Now that I want to take guns away from everybody

because there's a shooting. I mean, if there's not a shooting, I want to take guns away from everybody, you get some sickle. So he goes in with a bomb and he blows half the school up and

he kills more people actually than he's using a gun. Does that make you happy? Yeah, you never

“gun. So I don't think the means of what you use is that important. You're taking a life.”

Whatever it is, whatever your reason is, whatever the the senses look at later on, you're taking a life, whether it's on a battlefield in the street. No matter how you do it or what you do, you're taking a life, bottom line. But we have excuses for what how you do it. If me and him are in a battlefield in the street, we like years ago, when we back up and we pull out a gun from the side and we both shoot in each other, you're taking a life. What's the difference

how you do it? That is that. My bottom line, I could say, you can hit by a car and you're all crunched up, bleeding, all your bones are busted up and you're dying. What if how would you feel if the person ran over and said, "It's me, Sammy." He didn't do it on purpose. It's an accident. Does it make a difference to me if it's an accident or it's on purpose? I'm a more crushed up. I'm in tremendous pain. I'm about to die. Death is death. I don't know. That ignores the moral code. I mean,

I agree with you in terms of, you know, you die by a knife, you die by a gun. It doesn't make much of a difference to you. But we're expanding beyond that too. The law recognizes some killings as justified. It would not recognize any of the ones that you're talking about as justified.

“And I think you know that. It's just what you're saying is that in the mafia, you live by a”

different code of justice. And as I understand it, your position is that you wouldn't run around killing what you call legitimate people. If somebody pissed you off in your social life, he wouldn't be at risk of getting whacked. You only, for the most part, we'll get to one of the exceptions I know about, but it sounds like it may have been an accident. But for the most part, you only went after people who were part of your world and who had agreed to live and die

by this code. Right, exactly. I never killed a woman or a child and I never killed even a legitimate

guy who I didn't get a long way or whatever. I mean, I had fights, but that's as far as that would go. I'm not going to kill somebody because I don't like what he said or something like that, when I complete lunatics. Some of us became lunatics, but I never, I never went to that degree. I live by this code and I would willing to die by the code. I told my family when I cooperated, we talked about cooperating. What I cooperated, I said, if somebody comes down and kills me, don't,

understood that I could die for what I was doing. If I could understand it, you understand it. Leave it

“alone. So I believe in that code, just like I believe in God, but I don't believe in certain”

religions, probably most religions, but you got to live by something and I live by what I was taught by my mother and my father, the legitimate and a lot of people would say I was a different kind of gangster. You talked about the law enforcement. I'm still friends with agents and YPD cops. So today, because they were different, we got a law, a friend, they had one life,

I had another life, we understood each other and I was basically a different kind of a gangster.

I cared about people, people's person, basically. My ex-wife and my daughter or my son said, "God, you talked to everybody. Yeah, they human beings. I talked to people. I love people. I like

“people." But what about Alan Kaiser? This was a 16 year old boy who you killed.”

And I was saying, "You're not an ex-wife. I didn't kill dental." No, it's not actually dental, and I didn't kill. First of all, it was again who came and they actually did movies about this, our F-d-hour club,

bikers, and I went to that place. I wound up getting the beaten. I got jumped by six

seven guys. My ankle was broke on both sides. I had a kiss from my knee down. And I had permission to go after this guy. And it wasn't Alan Kaiser. So I'll tell you what happened. We got in the car and we were looking for him. One night, we saw him pull up in front of the house. Double part.

“Different guy. Aldo Candito. Yes. Yes. And I said, "That's him." We went back to our club. We got guns.”

We got a shotgun. Now, it was supposed to be loaded with double or buck, which would put down a moose. But they were using it for pigeons and playing around with it. It was a bird shot. So anyway, Louis Milito had it. I said, pull up to the car. When you see him coming out of that house, when the car was double buck, stop, ask him for directions like we're lost. I was laying down in the back seat when it cast on my leg. There was a driver. And Louis Milito was

in the past you see. I said, "When he gets to the car to answer you, I'll shoot him in the face." Louis Milito rolled down the window when he came out and he must have been told the night before that what they did was to a maid guy, me. And he knew he was in trouble. So as soon as he knew he asked him for directions, he started to run. Louis jumped out of the car through a shot at him, hit him in the back. He kept running. He didn't put him down. He kept running.

This kid Allen Kaiser and I spoke to the family and everybody about this. He was 16. We didn't know he was 16. He wasn't a target. Wasn't in the head. Wasn't supposed to get it. No accident. He ran at Louis Milito. He might have been part of that guy. I don't know. The driver yelled to Louis Milito. Guy coming at you. He turned around with the shotgun inches away from the guy and shot him in the chest. When he went down, he put the shotgun to his head and pulled the trigger again and killed him.

We found out the next day that he was 16 years old. We were in shock. It was terrible. 16. The number itself shocked you. But why did he want it, Louis Milito? Why did he do that? He wasn't the target. He was shooting at him. He could have ran back at his house. He could have went the

other way. He could have just stood there and never got touched. So now whether he was on drugs,

whether he was part of the gang, I don't know. You hear stories to his family says he was not a gangster. Well, he was just an innocent kid walking home. No, no, not a gangster. 16 years old. He definitely wasn't a gangster. He could have been a gang member or he knew this guy because the guy was in his house. So the family can't deny that. That guy went in his house. They were together. He came out. He the other guy came to the car and he was on the side. Nobody was going to shoot him.

And the family recognizes that too. I talked with the sister and she said, I don't know what made

Louis did, but it doesn't matter. If I could have shot him, I would have. I'm not trying to make

myself a good guy to shoot him. But the police found him exactly where it was in the street, where he got to. He came off the sidewalk into the street after Louis. Not on the side walk with his books coming home from school, like you hear some stories, none of that's true. Now, it was a shame. We were sick about that he was 16 years old. And we were confused why he even did that. And he wasn't a target of the hit. We weren't even looking at it. But what would you expect? What

I expect Louis to do? The guys are actually a foot away from him. What is he supposed to do? He's standing away for the guy to grab him and tackle him to the ground and do something. He's on a hit. Obviously, this is why we don't choose the life of crime. We don't go to murder people in neighborhoods and take law on to our own hands and why the law prohibits it because bad things

“can happen. And that's why there's something called felony murder. You're in the process of”

committing one felony and you accidentally or otherwise commit another murder, you're going to be charged for it, even if it was an accident. And of course, the felony because the law recognizes creating extremely dangerous situations absolutely absolutely. And I'm charged with it because I'm part of the murder, not the shooter, and he wasn't the target, but I still get charged with it. And I understand that that's why it's on my list of 19 people that he's there. I mean,

and I get it. But I did give a courtesy to the family. They talked to my daughter. They talked with my son and they wanted to talk with me and I did talk with them. I took the time to explain what happened and why. Nobody wanted to kill this kid. They understood that. I don't know what they told you or told anybody else. And I know that the goddess instigated these people saying that I killed their son or their brother 16 years old. I'm a baby killer. That was brought up

by the goddess who would try to make me look bad or make it look worse. And I know how it was brought up. And like I said, this was talked about with the families, the whole thing. It was talked about with the police. And it's not, I'm not saying it. It was a good thing. It was a horrible thing.

“But it's one of those things that happened. I mean, if I see a murder, I think I'm a pretty tough guy.”

I see somebody shooting at somebody. I'm not going to run at the shooter. He's got a gun. I got it. I got it. I got it. I let me pause you there. Let me squeeze in one more break. And we'll be right back, uh, much more to the story with Sammy the both Gravano as we continue at right after this. You see my phone's right. I'm here. You said I hear this bitch behind my back talking

about my father. When I say nothing in my back is turned to my face. And automatically I just black the f**k out. I don't hear about f**k if he's ready. I'm coming for you. You want to keep talking about families? Let's talk. You want to bring up families? You want to get my daughter into this? For my f**k daughter, for my father, for every f**k lady that you spoke about.

I will take a piece of you every time, bitch.

This is why you never talk about families. Look at the outcome. Now that blood was drawn,

these will never be the same thing. Okay, so that was the bulk of that clip is Karen Gravano, uh, Sammy's daughter, who was one of the stars of the show Mob Wives, which I confess I absolutely loved. And she was very open about what it was like to grow up as your daughter and sort of when she how she slowly became aware of what you did for a living and how she could tell, you know, obviously she's firing in feisty, but how she could sort of tell that you were an important man.

You know, the way people greeted you, the way people showed you respect. And I know, you know, that must have manifested in your life, too. You sort of getting into the clubs in New York and I saw the ABC documentary where, you know, you talked about, you looked at the Manhattan skyline and said, you know, I own this. I own it. I built it.

“I control it. So can you talk to us a little bit about that piece of your history?”

Yeah. Well, you know, I, I became very powerful in the construction industry and one day we were

on the other side in Connecticut, I believe it is. And we were in a fancy hotel and we went out, I went out on the patio and smoking a cigar, I think. And I looked at the skyline at night, Manhattan is gorgeous, lit up at night. And it's just, the guy who was with me said,

It's gorgeous. And you're part of building this whole thing. I mean, you can't get a job at this

“point in my life without some sort of a wink and a nod for me saying, yes, I know. I mean,”

I became very powerful in the construction industry. Paul had me podcasted around,

I had me under his wing, because he loved the construction. And he was part of the reason I became very powerful in construction industry. And he enjoyed using me to run certain units and do certain things for him. And yeah, I loved what I was doing as far as the construction. And I should mention, because you mentioned Paulcastle. And so, because you had just sort of started with a different crime family. And then eventually moved over to the Gambino crime family. And that's the family that

Paulcastle on offer time was ahead of. And you would later become part of his assassination,

but before before we get to that. So you're live in large. You're live in large in New York.

And this was a time. I mean, what is a weird question. But like, to what extent did that film,

“the godfather affect people's view of the mafia and your own experience within the mafia?”

You know, because when I was growing up, you knew about the mafia, but they're, they're definitely was a glorification around it. You know, it seemed like, ah, they hurt people, but maybe mostly the wrong people, but that's not really true. I mean, the extortion was on regular folks too. And yet, they seem kind of cool. And people wanted to like rub elbows with them in very high circles

and respect that they should about Frank Sinatra. And, you know, so on and so forth. So

what was your experience of that movie and people's reaction to the mob? Well, that movie stunned me. It was probably one of the best movies I have ever watched. It was completely well done. Godfather won and Godfather, too. Godfather, three was a joke. But yeah. Because you're in it. It's just coming out. You were in it when those movies had. Yeah. Yeah. And it, you know, it showed the family orientation, how we are with family, the weddings,

our family had weddings like that. And people would get up and sing and it was fun. And, you know, who was a sonny is with one of the bride's names in a room upstairs. I mean, that's typical of us. That was really typical of us. All that stuff that happened in that, the agents watching us. It just gave me a whole different look at the mob and how the people would look at it. And as far as the fascination, I know what it is. Everybody in my mind, anyway, has a fascination,

especially men, have a fascination of being a tough guy, going with beautiful women, beautiful cars, making money, you know, fucked up government. I don't want to pay taxes. And I don't want to do this and that, I don't think so. Everybody looked at it and it's, you didn't live that life, but you admired it in a way. You felt the certain way when you watched it. And I watched this new movie that came out the offer, how they made the Godfather, very interesting,

movie, great movie. With the producers in Hollywood, the whole nine yards. I mean, just watching these things, the mafia really, you know, it's, when I was in prison a couple of times, AB's, Aryan brothers, and other gang members came to me and told me, Sammy, tell me about the structure of the mafia. And I would tell them why, you're not the mafia, you're Aryan brothers, why would you want to know? And they said, your structure lasted a thousand years. People admire you guys.

“People want some people want that to be like you guys. So what's the whole structure about?”

So I realized them, even them asking me questions like that, that they admire themselves and want that to be like it. My answer to them was, we're not savages. We don't kill outside our organization where everybody in the mafia, one time or another has been involved in a murder, 99%. So how do you control that group of people? If there's no violence within us, if there's no punishments that could cause death, how do you stop them? How do you stop a guy

what are you going to do? Cut off his tie? What are you with slap him on the wrist? He's not going to listen to you. Then he'll do whatever he wants to do. Then there'll be no control

You have to have rules. You have to have ideas. You know, I looked at there was a conversation

“I just had recently about, I was in Paul Castellano's house and the union which we controlled”

the association and the union for the garbage and there was a mess of strike. It was on television, it was garbage piled up everywhere. I came in and I said he told me to sit down, the maid got me a cup of coffee and he said, said if a Jimmy Brown and the people who are running the union and the association. So we sat there for a while 15 minutes, 20 minutes, those guys came in. Jimmy Brown was a captain. The other guy was a made guy and he said, look at this television.

He said, what are we animals? Pick up that garbage from schools, from hospitals,

from old age homes, will win the strike. But what are we animals? Over money, over winning,

“will win, pick up that goddamn garbage. It struck me in a way that here's the boss of bosses,”

Paul Castellano. It was the boss of bosses. It was the head of the commission. Saying something like that, caring about children, hospitals, old age homes that they would be infected with garbage and whatever. It came here a different look at things and I, you know, those are good things that I saw. There's evil things. I saw there's people who bought a line got to like killing and became serial killers like a Roy de Mayo or a guest pipe when people

like that and we killed them because they became that. So we don't believe in pedophile, as rapists, serial killers. We want to get rid of that. When I was in my neighborhood, I, you know, the whole neighborhood I would say, this is my neighborhood. People I don't even know. Maybe you lived in there. I didn't even know you. You're a beautiful woman. You'd walk down the block. My guys, I would tell them. This is not a construction site. Don't who? Now don't do anything

when you see her. She's part of our, our community. They're us. Nobody's going to touch her. Our husband knew she was beautiful. He'll tell her, go right PSM. He's well, don't worry about it. He said that because he knew she was safe. We wouldn't let nothing happen. Around the

“block, only God knows what happens. So we, we live the different way. And I think that touched”

the public in a certain way. They, they, they didn't agree with the violence. But we would different. We were a different type of an organism, criminal, a organization. I'll call a criminal because it is, you know, we would take, like you say, from every industry. But we took a little bite. Out of every industry. We screwed the government out of taxes. Yeah. We screwed insurance companies. Yeah. We didn't feel any guilt about that because these, they screwed people all the time.

My mother and father, I broke their back and was so legitimate. I, I don't even know how I became a gangster. They're true. They were so legitimate, so honest. But they were taking advantage of, by unions, by, by the government. So I have no sympathy for government. I have no sympathy for insurance companies who sometimes go overboard and people are sick and, oh, no, we're not going to pay that claim or we're not going to do this or we're not going to do that. I'm not saying

all of them. There's some really good people, honest people out there in every industry. And there's some bad people in every industry. So, you know, I have mixed feelings with a lot of these things. What about like the mind-push app owner on the corner who we're just trying to make ends meet and they got to pay extra money every month for security or, you know, for permission from you guys to do

what is their legal right to do or else. Never happen. Never happen. It's far as I'm concerned. Never

happen. All the mom-and-pops stores knew my mother, my father, me, my family. It was a community. What, what, if you're worried about the mom-and-pops stores, I'll tell you what crush them is big corporations. Well, it really leads. Of course. Get these big corporations and crush them. You know, I had a little, uh, milk fund they called it. It's a little grocery store at one point

make it any money just as a drawer for people. So, I sent my partner, my goomba to Hollywood, Komo, go to the supermarket, see what they're charging. When he came back, he said, "Semi."

“They're charging, like less than we're paying for them wholesale. So, I said, how could they do that?”

He said, "Well, number one, they're buying tons of stuff." I wasn't. I was buying two cases, they're buying 4,000 cases. And they, if they want to make a sale and do the same idea that I have, how could I compete with them? I, I took the two cases of pamphlets that threw them out. I can't compete with them. Okay. So, this is what happened in small business, got crushed, but the

mom and pop source, I mean, I have never ever thought about. We love these people. We knew them.

We went to a bakery, a vegetable store. Those things don't even exist anymore. But you guys, you didn't charge people for security saying, "No, no, not security." Never? Well, something, though. I mean, I remember, I have some personal knowledge on this, because in another life before I was a journalist, I was a lawyer, and the lawyer I worked for

“at this law firm, Jones Day, was charged with enforcing a consent decree that the mob had entered”

into a New York City. And that meant the mob admitted it, it had done a bunch of things. And we were responsible for making sure it lived up to its promise not to keep doing them. And, you know,

the sort of the harassment of small businesses, small business owners was on the list, money laundering,

and so on. That was another thing. But, you know, this sort of smaller crime, smaller than murders, and so on, within the family, that's one of the reasons why people don't like them hobby. Right? Like, it's not all within your own family. There are innocent people who get hurt, and who have to pay unnecessary money that they shouldn't have to pay, and who could get hurt if they don't do as told. Well, listen, I like I said before, you know, there's good and bad in every

organization. There's bad guys in the mafia who would do something like that, do a lot of things like that. That wasn't our norm. Now, I would do that with a disco or something to, like, protect when you talk about protection money. If you could mention my name, nobody could come in and bother you. Mafia wise or anything at any other way. I'll take care of your problems. But I didn't cripple them. They gave me a pay. What they gave me something that helped them. I don't look at it as hurting them,

shaking them down. It's like a rent. It's like anything else that, or any bill that you pay. And in most cases that I did, it was a reasonable play. What I did mostly is use my power to help grow a company, and I would become there. Oh, partner, I'll give you a quick example. There was a guy who had a small little container company. He'd go to houses and put the container, you're moving, you put all your garbage in that container, and he's making money. The containers were

garbage, and I got to like the guy I went to him and I said, listen, I got connections in Jersey, I could get the best containers, and I could increase your business. So we had a conversation. I said, I don't want any contracts or anything like that. We could work on a handshake. How much do you make a year? And he said about 100,000 a year. I said, how amount we go partners?

“The first 100,000 you make. That's yours. That's what you make. Anything above that”

meeting your partners, and I could get you more work. I could get you better containers. So we did that. We should shook hands, and we did that. At the end of the year of our partnership, I said, how did we do? Would you make? It's the same. I made 400,000 machine. The first 100,000 is yours. The other 100,000. The allegation against you by your critics is that nobody should have accepted this kind of an offer from you because if they wanted to

renegotiate, or if they wanted a bigger piece of the pie, you would kill them.

That's not true. That is not true. I've never killed a partner. Listen, I'm this what I told

well, we're talking about happened 40, 50 years ago. And if you came to my office, I'll show you 14, 15 different letters of people who were partners with me. And no me back then, I send them me love letters. And I don't know what I'm talking about women meant. Sammy was great. I watch your podcast. I hope you make it. Our partnership was great. So I don't know. What happened to the guys for whom it wasn't great? What about what happened to the guys who said, I don't like the deal.

And I actually want to break up. I didn't care. The guy went to container business after

I didn't try to make money. I walked away. This is yours. I did it with the

guy named Joe Medonia, with the ace part of the show. We had 200 copies. When I grew in status, I said, Joe, I love you. I made a ton of money with you. It's yours. It's all yours now. And if anybody bought it, you get in touch with me. And if I could get you some big work, give me a piece. And I got a letter from him in my office. Now, a letter from him. Love and love and the partnership, the relationship we had. Now, what would happen if a guy

was wanted to take advantage of me in some way? Or from me out, or push me out, or do something on his own? It wouldn't be happy. It wouldn't get killed. It's not a killing in my eyes.

It's not a killing offense. But I was powerful with unions and everything. I could be a

“tremendous pain in the ass. And that's what I would be. If he's going for jobs, if he would go”

for jobs, I would tell him, don't give them no work. Yeah. Well, I imagine if Sammy the bull tells you don't give this guy any work. You don't give the guy any work. Because there's a lot of power behind that name at that time, especially. So that leads me to Donald Trump. Because there was speculation in the press when he was running for president that he had mob ties. No one could ever get him on it. Like, you know, they're press tried to get him on everything. None of that was ever proven.

But it reminded me of this, this one exchange he had with David Letterman. This is before he ran for president back in 2013, where he was asked. Because this is a guy in New York City real estate. You know, he has to deal with construction and some of the industries that you just mentioned. Unions all the time. And here's how that went. This is not a living. Have you ever knowingly done business with what I like to call organized crime? Have they ever swap by? I've really tried

to stay away from them as much as possible. But if you ever had a case where a guy stopped by answered, Donald, we're going to handle the linens. You know, growing up in New York and doing business in New York, I would say there might have been one of one of those characters along the way. But generally speaking, I like to stay away from that group. Yeah, well, I think that's that goes without saying. But sometimes, sometimes they don't let you stay away from them. There's

“truth of that. But if you smart, you can stay away. You have to stay away and just sort of lead”

your life. You don't want to get involved. Although, I must say, I have met on occasion a few of those people. They happen to be very nice people. You just don't want to owe them money. Yeah, I just don't owe them money. I've heard you talk about him before and sort of said, he was, you knew not to, don't go there, you knew. No, it is what it was with Donald Trump. It was smart. He was a good builder. He was a great builder. He was pretty honorable with the people he

dealt with. He had a group of X FBI agents for security purposes. So we knew that. So you could push on him a little bit. I tried, but couldn't succeed. What he's saying is right, he knew we were there. He knew that he had to deal with situations. But he built it as a business guy. You couldn't go up there and try to talk like this guy was talking. You're going to threaten him. Give me, you would be arrested in three minutes. Those agents were around 24/7. So I backed away from

him because there was nothing I could do. A guy named Eddie Garrow fall out of a demolition company.

He did a job for him. They was able to reach some people in the company, but it never went to his

level that we know of. And he didn't want to deal with us. I left him alone because I thought that was a bad problem. Even legitimate guy. I didn't want to go try to threaten him because I thought we would go to prison. So we left him alone. There was plenty of people who wanted to deal with us. So to go out there like a thug and walk in his office and try to threaten him, you would go to prison. For sure. So I don't think anybody bothered him. I'm going to give

me a quick example of a news reporter, a woman who called me one day and told me to send me your telling me. You were very powerful during the 80s. And he was a big buildup.

“You must know something. They asked me if they became the president. So I said, I really don't know,”

you know, just what I told you now. That's what I know about him. I really don't know any incidents that he's done anything if that's what you're looking for. Sammy, please, come on. She's begging me for information. It'll just be between me and you, which I know is bullshit. That's not going

goofing on. And I said, listen, it's just between me and you. Sammy, yeah, yeah, I give you my word.

“Nobody'll ever know. I said, all right, there was a dry wall draw by wanted. I knew this beautiful”

woman was a friend of mine. She was a hooker. So I hooked it up with Donald Trump, me, Trump, and her. We had a manager to talk. And I couldn't help it. I started laughing. So she said, you fucking you're lying. She said, I'm not lying. You keep pressing me and she was asking me, what's the name? What's the name? Why? Who do you care? What are the names? You're not going to say that. Why do you care? So you're giving it to my speed. It would have been printed on the front

page. Yeah. So now she's laughing. I'm laughing and I should listen. There's one thing I definitely

would never do with Donald Trump. I don't dislike him, but I would never have a manager 12

Donald Trump. That's the shit show. My head. Let me pause this right now. Just have a bit of

“breaking news at this moment. You just mentioned him. The movie Godfather and Sonny Corley,”

only James Conne was the actor played that role. She's died. She's got that news in. James Conne just died. Oh, sad. Yeah. What an icon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, he was hooked. What do you mean? He was, he was in the month. What? James Conne was in hooked him with the mob. That's the guy who played Sonny, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you do? I was there when it came down in that's permission to be in that movie. I was there with my personal call, Joe Columball,

David. Who did he ask permission of? To be in the movie. But who, who was he, who's permission was he seeking? Joe Columball's and he came to combine Portugal because there was a guy Andrew Mush, who was friendly with him. Matter of fact, Andrew Mush, who was a captain in the Columball family, became Godfather, his kid or vice versa. They were real tight. All their lives. So he was connected with the Columball family. Wow. So at some point, when he was being cast for the Godfather,

you're saying he had this connection. Yes. Wow. I was here when he came down and they said, he's an actor, he's coming down and they've played the part. They brought him over to combine test permission. And you, you witnessed him asking for the permission? No, absolutely. I was there. What did he say? No, he has permission. Call my told him. I'll talk to Joe Columball. I'll make this happen. Don't worry about it. What he did is he put him in Andrew Mush's hands tight. You know,

he might have got to part anyway, but they played this whole little game with him. But he became super close. It became one became the Godfather, one of the kids. And you could look that all up. You could, you could see that. But I was confused because James Con was a successful

“actor. I think I don't have his whole bio in front of me prior to the Godfather. So are you saying”

he was young? He was young. I don't think he was a major actor. He could have been an actor. Of course he was an actor. But I don't think he wasn't in the mob like you were in the mob. You're saying tonight's like connections and what does it mean? Yeah, it's associate. It's an associate of the mob. In other words, he's on record now with the mafia as an associate. He's not a made member. He's not one of us, but he's an associate of the fellow. Just like Sonatra was. He was, too. You say, I mean, of course,

would have been rumors about this for years, but you're saying that you're true. You know, when we took over John Gotti and me and John Gotti was a fucking ego maniac and he was in a restaurant. Sonatra had come in and he didn't say nothing to John. He was going to buy him a bottle of wine or something. John refused it. And he sent this guy Joe Watts over to Sonatra and tell him whenever you come in a restaurant, you see John Gotti. You come over and you kiss his head. And now Sonatra went

to where he's supposed to go to the Genevieve family because that's where he was for years, this guy Frankie Blue Eyes. And Jim Giganti, I was there when he got in touch with us and told John,

you know, bro, he's always been with us. What do you send so many over to abuse him? He does a lot of

favors. It's not us, but he's my dog, bro. If you need a favor, he'll do it. Don't go send people, we're threatened to move front of people. And so, I mean, how much more? I mean, I always know it, but I'm giving it out example where he was abused by this Joe Watts on John's orders. And the

to James Con, of course, we haven't had the chance to reach out to anybody in his cabin, ask these

questions. And they're quite clearly going to be in mourning today. Andrew, that's for Andrew, Russo, that's the call of Andrew. Mush, if he's related to him. Okay. I will say I knew James Con, just a bit personally through a mutual friend. He was an absolute gentleman and completely cognizant and lovely. Yeah. And I'm saying the bed about him. No, no, I know. I just don't, I feel uncomfortable. If none of this is true, disparaging him on the day of his death. And so

and I haven't had the chance to check it out myself. So with respect to you, not saying it isn't just don't know when I make that clear to the audience. But, but that's unfortunate. It's sad to have lost him. He was working the Godfather earned him an Academy Award nomination, a Golden Globe nomination.

“And of course, a place in all of our hearts because he was this firebrand who was tortured. And I think”

just is such a brilliant job of portraying what one might go through if one were born into such a family, or in your case willingly joined the family before we leave that subject. Did your wife,

I always wear it under about the wives. Like, did your wife know everything? I know she knew you

were in the mafia, but did she know, you know, about murders? Did she know all that? No, absolutely not. I never told my wife anything about the mafia. And it was my way of protecting her. She always, in my opinion, could turn around if she was ever questioned by the feds or anybody, she could say, I don't know legitimately, not as I'm not going to give her information, especially, but murder something like that. I'd have to be out of my mind to do something like that. But she

“knew I was in the mafia, but she didn't know any of that, even to my kids. I was a family man.”

I lived two lives. At home, I was a father or a husband. When I made money, I bought a farm, we put horses on the farm. It was a family life. When I drove to that place, I left the mafia behind. When I got off the highway, it was in Jersey, Greenbridge, New Jersey, and smelt the trees, the grass. I was like a different person, that's the farm. It was a 30 acre farm. We turned it into a horse farm. We lived great times in that farm holidays, fourth of July. So when I left, I left out of Friday,

took off, usually staying there on a Saturday and Sunday, what my family and we did all great things. When the FBI went up to Greenbridge, New Jersey, they went to every restaurant. Everywhere I went, asking people, you know, about me and not one person said anything negative. When I sold it, there was a woman who was, she sold it. She asked me for a cart, where the kids sit on it and could drive it. So I had said, you know, I'm not going to sell it. It's part of the farm. And my

did sell it. I told them that cart isn't for sale, and I gave it to the woman. She told the feds.

“That's how he dealt with me. Never offered me money under the table or doing anything,”

but he gave me this cart for my grandchildren. And matter of fact, as soon as I'm done with this conversation, I'm going to get in touch with him. And I'm going to tell him that you're here as can be questions. So I was a different animal there. Yeah, well, I mean, your kids talk about you in this way. It's part of what makes you fascinating. The dichotomy between your professional life and your home life. And up next, in our last segment together, I want to get into turning on

Gotti, going into witness protection in your job that you did while that happened plastic surgery, and then how you wound up back in prison, and then free again. Okay, so don't miss that. Stay with us for one more segment, Assamida Volgrovano continues with us right after this quick break. My team's best friend, I'm looking into the James Con thing during the break and says, indeed, Andy Mush Russo, part of the Colombo crime family, was a long-time friend of James Con,

and at one point James Con did, indeed, offer to post Mush's bail money when he was accused of a crime, and this Andy Mush Russo was, indeed, Godfather to one of James Con's children. So to be continued on that front. There were, there have been reports that Con had this connection,

though I've never heard it directly from somebody who was actually in the mob.

So we've gone to a different place. Okay, Sammy, you wound up, you and John Gotti, you wound up running the Gambino crime family, the genovies, so crime family, and John Gotti's

were very tight, very tight, and then as I understand it, and as we said in the intro, things went downhill, and I don't want to spend too much time as minutes to talk about a lot, but they went downhill and you're both in jail together, you thought he was going to turn on you,

“and I know you say, that's why you turned on him. You went to those two agents who were following”

you around all the time and said, let's talk about John Gotti. Now his defender say bullshit. They're like, that's Sammy trying to cover his own, but so he doesn't look like a rat.

John Gotti wasn't going to turn on Sammy, and they basically just call BS on the whole story.

So what do you want to say about that? Right, I mean, I've heard that they said there's many inch of hours of tapes, it wasn't me, it's just hours of tapes, there was, but the opening apartment there was a small amount of tapes, it was up there for months, but we didn't use the apartment a lot of times when we did use the apartment, we didn't talk about anything. There was a couple of

“times that I wasn't in the apartment and he was sitting with Franklin at Casio. Now, when people”

talk about, it was all bullshit, I mean, it's made up, there's agents, New York State, organized crimes, that test force, that heard these tapes, listened to the tapes, and knew exactly what was going on, but I'm going to give you one story that's going to blow all that out of stuff away. The judge got rid of our lawyers, Jerry Shaw, Galen, Bruce Carla, and we had to get new lawyers. One of the lawyers that we brought in did an interview and you could check this out in an article with

Jerry Capisi, he did an interview with Jerry Capisi and told him this, "I was brought in to be the lawyer for John." And he told John, I was in that meeting, it was a lawyer's meeting, he said to John, "You can't beat this case, your tapes are devastating, four, five, six tapes out of all the rest of them, a devastating. I could try to work out a plea agreement." And John said, "No,

“I'm going to beat the case. I got a secret weapon." So Bruce Carla, I mean, Bruce Carla,”

what I just said, his name was, that big lawyer. But anyway, he said, "Well, tell me your secret weapon, how are you going to beat this case?" And he says, "I'm going to throw Sammy and Frankie under the bus and I'm going to go free." We all left,

sounded like a joke. The lawyer never came back. When he did the interview with Jerry Capisi,

he told him that story, as I never went back, because I didn't want any part of that strategy. But John continued with that strategy, because when he was in the apartment with those tapes, he had planned to kill me. And he, you can't just kill him on the bus, it was very powerful, big money earner. The whole family likes you. If you could kill him, you shake the whole family. If you could kill him, you could kill all of us. Here's a guy who's the most loyal guy to you.

He's written your cases. He's killing people for you. If you could do that. So all of the things he was telling Frankie to talk about, to the captains, to prepare, Sammy's killing his partners, his killing union guys and taking over the unions, he wanted that to go out. So that when he kills me, he would have just a vacation. That is on those tapes. We looked into what he John got. He was saying on those tapes and, indeed, it's very negative about you and your alleged

behaviors. So I see it. I, and I'm, forgive me, first, giving past some of this, but, you know,

this has been out there. So you wind up saying, you're going to cross me. I'm going to, I'm going to cross you first. And you'll wind up going to jail, which he did for the rest of his life. You got a good deal. There's a sweetheart deal where you're supposed to go away for five years. You really only had to serve less than one year, because you've already served four, prior to, you know, not all the time. You know, you're a little bit off.

I got only served five years. Yes, I agree. So the cooperation that I did got it took a

plea for 20 years. Got it. And, and I didn't do a year. I did over four years. You got some good time off of the five. So I did almost five. When I got sentenced, I had seven months to go on on what, I got it. It's a material. The point is it wasn't a lot of jail time for, you know, the feds. What are you doing? Absolutely. Yeah. For what you did. So the deal is you're going to go into witness protection as we mentioned at the top of the show for a while. And can you just tell us,

“because I read that you were, you did something with pools. Where do they send you?”

And what was the job? And did you actually run around like looking after people's pools for a year or two?

Or selling people with pools? How did that go? When I first got out, I went in the witness protection

program for eight months. I promised them I would do one year. They were begging me to go in the program. I didn't want to go in. I had plenty of money. They said, you're going to make the government look horrible. Come on. You got a great deal. Five year deal. Give us something. Go in the program for a while. I gave them a year. The only wound up doing eight months because I met a woman there. I was talking to an onion with a little bit. And she recognized who I was. And they came back in.

They said, we're going to take you and move you to another state. We're going to start from scratch. And I said, no, I promised you a year. I mean, eight months. I'm not doing it. They said,

“you have to do it. That's the rules. Well, like while you were doing it, while you, I'm”

interested in your life while you were doing it. Like, how does a guy who's in the mob doing the

stuff you're doing? Go to like, look, and after somebody's pool and claiming that you have this other name and this fake background, you know, what, what was that? I wasn't doing it while I was in the program. And I changed my name. When I left the program in eight months, I changed my name back to South of Tolberna. So I wasn't walking around with this. In my run, I felt like you're, you don't like the fact that you were in this program at all. Is that because it violates like the

mob code? Is it, it makes you sound? No, like, no, no, I don't want to be in it. I want to make a do that. You can't have any contact with your family or friends or there's all kinds of rules. I just did five years in prison. I'm not going to live by all bunch of set of rules. So I gave them that one year, you could bounce me around, change my name, don't you want me? And then I'm done with you. I'm out of prison. So I didn't want to stay with these rules. Did you go to people's cocktail

parties? You go to like the barbecue of the neighbor next door? For the fake name again. I can't remember the fake name. Jimmy Moran. Did you say, like, hey, Jimmy Moran, and like, come on over, we'll watch Super Bowl together. Like, how did it go? No, no, no, I was just running around. It was

“50, five years old. I think I was, or 50 shot me as old. And I was there. I was, it was in a college town.”

I wound up in Colorado. And it was a Boulder Colorado, it's a college town. And I was hanging out there. I met a couple, you know, people and I played chess with some people. I'm a chess player. And friendly like that. But no, it wasn't party time. It was, I was, it was like doing time on the outside. I wanted to get done with the witness protection program and go home. And when I get done, see, you got that. Sorry, I'm not an old condensed in my own time. So I just want to get in the last thing.

So you go back to your, your real name in your life. And we talked earlier about whether that was scary in terms of, like, people are going to come get me and sure enough, some tried. And you wind up, like, to me, it's just so like, you know, I get it because if you're in a life of crime, maybe it's hard to get out. But you wind up dealing drugs and going back to prison for 20 years, almost 20 years. How did you let that happen? How, like, how did that happen?

Now, on that one subject, not one subject. But that's exactly what happened. And I wasn't dealing drugs. It was ecstasy, which they consider it. I'll drunk. It's, and it was that that's all it was. It was no heroin. It was not cocaine. It was not the crack. It was ecstasy, which is a bullshit drunk. They put it on a level. But anyway, I didn't even do that. There's a thing coming out, a documentary that we're working on. And me, my daughter, my son, and I'm tied up on the contract with that

documentary that's going to talk about that little part of my life. So I don't think I could talk

Well, that's fine. That's fine. But so we'll stay tuned to wait for your longer take on that.

“But you get out of jail on 2017. And now what? Right. So now, how old are you now?”

777. 77 years old. You and your wife divorce, but it sounds like she's still in your life and kind of a business partner now. We've talked about your daughter care and you have a son as well. So, you know, what next? What do you do with the time you have left? She's not my business partner. I'm a bitch. I work for her. She owes the company. She handles my rights and I work for her. I do my podcast. I do some other things. And I do some things on my own. So, we're not really partners,

but we're we're close. We have kids, grandchildren. We've been divorced since 1991. And so, but we are close. And I still got, I'm still close with my kids, my grandchildren. And I do this.

I couldn't find a better thing to do in retirement. I'm never going to go back to crime.

I'm never going to do anything like that again. So, I enjoy the social media stuff that I'm doing. I mean, this contract about the story of my life at that time with the x to see in order

“up below me. And is that, is that the salivatory? Is that, or is that a different project?”

Because I know you're, no, that's who you've got your own short film series called the Salivatory that's coming out. Yes, the Salivatory. It's based on a true story, but it's not a true story. It's fiction. But it's me. It's, his what it is. I get out of prison in 2017. I'm contacted by the FBI. My wife and children were in the program, supposedly, and they were all killed. And the FBI

wants me to go after and follow some serial killer. And I agree to it. I don't want to do it at first.

And it showed me a picture of dead woman and kids. And I agree to go after him. Now, I'm going to, I'm going to say this here, but I'm not even supposed to be saying this thing. But what happens is is that these FBI guys got money from the mob and they gave the serial killer my wife and kids address and he was supposed to go kill them. So they get the money. They break the link and they got me. Now they got me going after him. Sounds a little confusing, but me going after him.

No, I get it. It's sort of a normal life drama. So this is going to come out on Sammy on his YouTube channel. So if you're not subscribed, you can see it there by doing so. In the minute we have left, rounding back to the discussion we had on faith and God at the top of the show, what do you make of it? A lot of folks and they get to be 77 years old start thinking about the afterlife and what possibly awaits and forgiveness and all of that. So how do you see

what's next for you? You know, meeting a maker, making a men's asking for grace for forgiveness,

“is any of that important to you? It's important to, you know, what's going to happen?”

I mean, I really don't believe that you go anywhere. I'll be honest with you. I don't think you go anywhere, but if I go anywhere, I'm going to go share it. I'll talk to them and I'll talk to I'm not going to ask for forgiveness. If you made me, then you made me, you could have stopped anytime you want. I'm not going to, you made me what I am. I'm annoying. You made me that. So if you wanted to stop me, you could stop me anytime you want. I'm not going to ask for forgiveness.

I did what I did in an honorable way if you could call it that in my eyes.

I never really took advantage of people and they have achieved it. I never lied. I never

bullshit of people to an extent except for the government because of course I couldn't tell them the truth and I couldn't tell my family the truth of things I was doing, but I think that's understandable. I really, I'm not looking for forgiveness of what I did and what that would mean. This is taught in the church. If you don't believe this, you're going to hell. I don't believe in all that bullshit. I really don't. If you don't believe what I say, you're going to hell. If you don't tell,

I don't believe any of that. So I believe there is a God. I look up at the sky. I do artwork.

it's in the world could do that? It's got to be a God. Life, you see kids, you see animals, you see things,

animals kill each other. So I don't believe in the stuff they tell us in religion.

“You know, I got it. I think God is fair. He's honorable if he's there and I don't think I'll have too much”

of a problem. I think people bullshit about religion. I think they'll have more of a problem than I will. I got, I got to leave it at that because we're kind of up against a hard break, but I agree with you that God is fair and he is honorable. And he, I believe he will have the last say, Sammy the bold Gravano. Thank you so much for telling your story. And as I say for what the mob says, giving testimony that led to in their view, what the FBI said, led to the demise of

organized crime in New York. Amazing. All the best to you. His podcast is called "Our Thing"

“and his mini-series, "The Salvatore" is coming out next week. My God, what just happened?”

What just happened in that last two hours? My team and I were just talking about it just like, went to a lot of places I didn't, did not expect the thing about James Khan. But, you know, there's something, there's something to be learned there because we,

we have been so fascinated by the mob in this country, so fascinated by the mob. And it is interesting

to listen to somebody who was in it at the highest level. Talk about how it works and what the ethical code actually looks like, right? Like, some of that stuff at the, I behaved honorably.

“That's how he sees it. How he believes in God, but doesn't think that there will be any”

judgment for him because he thinks God made him the way God made me a lot. I mean, that stuff was very eye-opening to me in terms of how his brain works and how people can live a life like this. How could, how could you live a life where you kill 19 people? I understand he says they agreed to live by the same code. But, you know, the rest of us who live by a very different code have trouble understanding any of this. And it's an organization that's had its tentacles in

American society for a hundred plus years, right? So it's like, anyway, there's a lot to be learned and our fascination with this group remains. It may be dwindling. It's, it's not done in New York, but it's certainly not what it used to be. But it's still out there. And, you know, it's glorified and virtually every Hollywood movie still to this day. So, um, I don't know. I, I enjoyed the exchange. And I enjoyed listening to, you know, his take on it, obviously disagreed with a lot of his

ethical conclusions, as I'm sure you did, but I learned, I learned a little bit, and I hope you did too. Thanks for listening to the Megan Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.