The Inner Voice That Stops You Taking the Photo And Lies to Every Photographer, with Rory King - E122

This is Rory King, an Australian photographer who works in black and white, mostly by hand

in the dark room, making portraits of the people he loves and the landscapes that raised him. He came up through performance art, nearly lost himself in the years after art school, and turned 10 years of pictures into a book that we now know as gum sucker. It's sort of almost a companion to me, something that I have with me that helps me to

be out and also express myself moments in which I felt isolated and lonely have been by most productive in terms of making work, part of the suffering that I was in was a result of being really irresponsible. If you really love making pictures and sometimes you've wondered just why you even bother, then this conversation is for you, because what follows is about the years that

nearly broke him, the camera that pulled him out and what it actually costs to make work that is unmistakably your own. After art school, I really struggled, I had a really rough time, my mental health was terrible from 18 to 24, it was hard needed a lot of professional help, and that was that went on to probably four or five years, it's not a hyperbolic to say it saved my life.

The year you are not going to die and it's going to be all good, either finding your voice

“and finding how to find access to your voice, and I think for me I'm still trying to do that.”

Rory, thank you for joining me, glad we finally found the time to fix technical issues

and find those in like our supper, it's really great to have you, really honest, so thanks for joining me. Where to start, I think it'd be good to give an idea of who you are as photography found you as eventually a photographer at the photography you are today, I'm interested in your art background, you have a lot of background in the arts from childhood and how that kind of evolved

into using a camera and photography, so just give us a little bit of a background in your pedigree and the photography space.

“Sure, I think I've known since about 15 that I wanted to make art, it's something that”

spoke to me immediately and from that moment I was pretty narrow minded, focussed on going to art school and being an artist and it took me a little while to find photography or to really invest in it, I was using photography as a way to document performance work that I did and then learn a little bit more about the medium and printing in the darker and that just catapulted my love for the medium and I feel like it's a way photography

for me is a tool that I am able to use to understand more about my relationships and who I am in the world and so it's sort of almost a companion to me, something that I have with me that helps me to be out and also express myself so it's quite important to my life

“I think I've centered most of my attention around photography and being able to do photography”

and that manifests in lifestyle decisions that I've made and living in my van and traveling

it's all kind of centered around making work, so it's always been there, kind of yeah

I mean you doubled in other performing arts right when you're a child so you know now you climb and you photograph and you go around and you're in your van but this I'm interested like the kind of almost every moment of being a dark room and I know you but for those that maybe don't your skills in the dark room we talked more about it in Chico when we met when you are doing a workshop there around your meaks but the dark room is something

that you said elevates your love for the medium can you elaborate on why that is what it is about the dark room and the analog craft side of it that really has grown your

Sure I think for me film shooting film and analog process was a sort of two step process

“I guess I first learnt about shooting film and developing and for years I scanned all of”

my film and that was fulfilling enough for me but then there was a point where I learnt how to print and that was a pivotal moment that changed everything I now refused to scan film I hated I can't believe I spent as long as I did shooting at the computer and scanning film and trying to get it right the dark room for me is where the work really comes alive not only is a physical print that has its own aesthetic quality and its own

imperfections but also it's a place for me to reflect on the people in the photos and

the places and it becomes a very emotional experience I'm fortunate enough that the dark room I printed it's a community dark room here in Canberra but it's really rare that anyone else is in there so I'll often have the whole day with full access and I can play my music on the speaker and easily spend 10 hours printing so it becomes this kind of physical realization of the work but then also allows me to emotionally process and reflect on the pictures

that I'm working on so it's quite it's a really special place for me yeah wonderful and you took you mentioned twice already how printing and how your photography and photographic process is a way for you to get a little bit closer to people and a little bit understand your relationships a little bit more can you explain a little bit more why that is and what it you know what it is under your psyche that is there something that's been missing in your life that you know you're

using a camera to get a little bit closer to or why do you think that the camera is a utility for you to you know either showcase or express your relationship with yourself or express your

“relationship with between you and other people I think it's it's complicated there isn't a”

simple answer for me the reason why is because having a camera let's say you're in the moment and you're sharing an experience with the person or a group of people having a camera gives you permission in a sense to interact and be involved but it also has a level of removal you're sort of taking yourself out of the present moment in order to observe it so there's this kind of contradiction in that it gives you permission whilst also

puts you on the periphery in some way but I think having that distance in an experience whether that's connecting with a person taking portraits or being in a landscape it allows me to be a bit more reflective on I guess I don't I don't I'm not really sure maybe my life or my relationship to the person it's quite a beautiful thing for me to be able to look through a viewfinder and make compositions and make creative decisions from that vantage point it almost takes the pressure

off sometimes like having a social interaction and somebody but you know it's more nuanced than

that that's just one it's it's complicated to me and I'm always trying to juggle whether or not

I take pictures or if I take pictures or if I don't touch the camera and for the last few months so hardly taking any pictures I know I'll come back to it it always comes back but what she'll rewarding for me is being in the present moment and not having that distance so it's something I'm constantly juggling but yeah. Do you I mean I'm thinking of Gumsaka your

“your recent book when you're talking like that because I think maybe you described it or an art”

call that you're indescribed or maybe it was Jesse and charcoal actually published it but it could have I don't I can't have it doesn't matter where it's from but I heard it being described or it's certainly the the collective photographs being described there's lonely photographs would you say you're a lonely person I mean that might relate to what you're just talking about in terms of you know using a camera to relate to people in a sense does that is that an

undertone that you think is is prevalent in in a craft? I wouldn't I wouldn't label myself as a

of connection and that's fluctuating thing that I assume will continue on for the rest of my life

“if I really think about it I think the moments in which I felt isolated and lonely have been”

by most productive in terms of making work whether that's going on a massive road trip by myself for traveling overseas and being alone or feeling mentally dysregulated and disconnected from community then I'm taking lots of pictures to try and process and understand but I think maybe at this point in my life I feel really connected to community and have an abundance of of friends around and sometimes I want to take pictures then but other times

I don't feel the need to so maybe they are kind of lonely photographs in that sense that

they're made out of these periods of loneliness but I think as a whole I really like you to have a wonderful community and lots of friends yeah yeah good for you sorry to cut away from the episode from in it but I wanted to talk to you about something very quickly now I spent a long time thinking that isolation was part of the deal when it came to photography that if you were so it's serious about the work you did it alone you'd consume enough watching off read enough and eventually

it would all cohere into something meaningful and it sometimes did but mostly I was just alone with my doubts and no one to push back on them what changed things for me wasn't a course or a workshop it was a conversation with someone who was doing the same kind of work and cared about it in exactly the same way I did the doubts didn't disappear but they got a little bit smaller and I felt

“more okay with them they got named that's what I'm building with the mood inside is it's a place where”

the work is taken seriously where you can bring your questions and of course your hard finished ideas and where someone would actually engage with them we have the ad free extended podcast episodes with bonus content we have monthly masterclasses, Q&A sessions and of course the weekly book clubs and direct access to me and my team because you don't have to do this alone so the link is in the show notes hopefully I'll see you inside when was it then that you've understood that the

camera was something that you could use to either hold an emotion or feeling or a moment or indeed express it because we we have this learning phase when we go through photography one thing is just about how to take photographs another thing down the road is potentially how to print in a dark room and then there's this kind of area in between where we we kind of figure out that the camera can be used for a little bit more than just a print or the process of that craft

or just taking a nice photos you put on Instagram you know there's this understanding that you're talking about in terms of relationships in that season of yours and we're talking about this later and maybe you change as a person and you start taking slightly different photos right that's the expression of the camera but was there a moment younger when you were younger and learning photography where you you kind of understood the camera had more depth to its utility than just

pretty I can think of actually quite a few moments both in as you might personal journey and relationship to photography and taking pictures and successful moments within that but then also

seeing other people's work and seeing work that I'd never seen before and really moved me

it changed my perception of what was possible with photography if I rewind all the way back to

“the kind of earliest moment I had an English assignment when I was in it and I think yeah I”

would have been 15 so in Newton and the assignment was to make a photo essay and we had to come up with any sort of concept and then take photos to fulfill the idea essentially like a mini project and I borrowed my mum's digital camera and went out and took photographs of people in proximity to trees either like walking in front of trees in the street or like some sort of relationship between humans and nature and I did the best job I could I was really

it felt fine to be doing something creative in the English that wasn't writing and I submitted

was a great teacher but I don't think particularly like to me because I wasn't a great student called me out by name and specifically referred to my assignment and gave me four marks and it just like opened me up inside and I felt so validated and you showed my project in front of all the other kids and said like this is a really beautiful concept that's been

“realized through a visual being in through photography and I think for me that was kind of validation”

from an authority figure that you can use photography to share an idea to record and document

and share so that was probably the first moment and funnily enough all I do now is take

portraits of people and landscapes and put them together so it's time I'm just the same thing I have been doing it for now it's been years this relationship between landscapes and people is that from you know the interest born from childhood in your upbringing and you know in Australia lots of room to explore and you said you talk about you know going in your van and just going off and exploring is that where it's kind of born from you know your subject matter and a lot of your

“photographs yeah I think so I was really fortunate to get to see a lot of proper outback”

rural Australia as a kid my grandparents really loved for driving and going on long trips out into

the desert and I've had multiple birthdays in places like the Simpson Desert Chambers Pillar in America like just completely middle of nowhere Australia and those were such formative experiences I had a sense of how remote those places were as a kid and I think a lot of my work now is a photographer is trying to return to that sense of isolation but also feeling of like like all and supply and being in a natural landscape and trying to capture the complexity

of it being extremely beautiful and extremely hostile at the same place at the same time and I think

where people come into that is there's so much emotion that can be conveyed in a portrait

I feel blessed to have such attractive beautiful friends in my life who are comfortable having their picture taken and I have a relationship with certain people, certain friends that I've been shooting them now for 10 years and I've seen them grow as people watching myself grow my relationship was changed and so it makes sense to me to combine the two into this kind of not literal story but kind of fiction of the landscape expressing itself with beauty and

hostility and human beings expressing themselves with beauty and suffering maybe some relationship there now there comes a point in every photographer's journey where gear or technique stops being the question you've learnt your camera you can read light you know how to edit how to produce what a good frame looks like and you can probably make one on demand quite easily but something is still missing the work feels good competent maybe even pretty but it doesn't

quite feel completely yours it doesn't really say anything that couldn't have been said by someone else on Instagram with the same camera that's the moment most people get stuck not at the beginning but right here right there somewhere in the middle of it in the midst of it where you have all the tools but not really in the language and the reason it's so hard to move past is because nobody can teach you your voice in a tutorial or a silly little YouTube video because

it's not a setting on the dial it has to be drawn out of you slowly by methods and introspections that actually allow you to look at yourself and your work and challenge you with the harder

“questions all in order to draw out your unique and photographic voice that's what my voice”

alchemy mentorship program is it's an online container for photographers who really already know how to use their camera but want to use it to say something that's more meaningful and that actually matters to them personalised strategy honest feedback and the kind of work that builds their body of voice and a brand that actually gets noticed it's not a course it's just the thing

show note so if something in this is calling you hit the link and we'll see where you're at

“I just want to fill in the gap between art school graduating and then now what kind of”

did you go into kind of professional areas of photography did you start earning money from it or what what what what did you place yourself well I was reflecting on this the other day actually dangerous art yeah after art school I really struggled I I had a really rough time my mental health was terrible I was in and out of a period of date depression and needed a lot of

professional help and that was that went on so probably four or five years and it took a lot of

effort and eventually discipline and compassion and tolerance for myself to get out of that but I took photos the whole time so I was working sort of unrelated jobs working in kitchens essentially in survival mode and not really doing anything related to professional photography but I was taking pictures and the process of taking pictures helped me through that experience immensely it I mean it's not a hyperbole to say it saved my life yeah and so then after getting through

that having more of a healthier relationship with myself and a deeper understanding of the care that I can afford myself I was then able to take kind of professional steps with photography and now I feel like there's a beautiful trajectory at that moment how old were you at the time you are struggling with depression I mean it's kind of hard to to pinpoint it to one age because like okay yeah bracketing their their periods in your life where you're like particularly sad like

something happens a breakup or like and you go through six months every year of being miserable

“and then you kind of come out of it but I think honestly from 18 to 24 was it was hard”

but the worst of it was 21 straight after art school and not having that Owen straight from high school into university so I think as soon as that finished my the whole structure and routine of my life had changed that was just out in the world with free time and that wasn't particularly helpful for me yeah I'm sorry that you you went through that but I think a lot of people listening and watching can resonate me included being through those types of pairs and I think you know

a lot of humans you know it's a big spectrum of course but we we will all have those those difficult times in our life and yeah I'm sorry that you were so young you went through that but what you know I recently did an episode with a psychologist and we talked a lot about mental health obviously but limiting beliefs and and childhood trauma and grieving and how to kind of process that as a creative and why we might find it a little bit more not difficult but a little

bit more um opaque I guess when it comes to finding clarity with how we how we move through it and we can turn to cameras we can turn to painting we can turn to the dark room um what else

“dear just just for my audience his benefit I think when you were going through that phase I don't”

want to kind of double down on it too much um but when you were going through that phase you talked about professional help and you talked about using the camera to you know so there if you essentially what are the kind of things helped you through that that phase in your life you might be able to share with us the support of my family thanks friends that was huge I feel like that was

so essential for me and I I have a lot of empathy for people who struggle and don't necessarily

have close networks to fall back on um that was huge but also music music music oh my god

between photography and music it's just so wonderful and so I was listening to a lot of music

usually quite sad music a lot of like like miserable ambient music but it's kind of validating

“it just allows you to fit like tapping to the feeling of really a body and I think through that”

embodiment you're able to process it and then eventually let it go but yeah because it can family and friends. Have you ever you don't have to answer this but it's only because I was listening to a podcast about psychedelics yes and I'm absolutely fascinated by them and more of a neuroscientic

more from a neuroscientist perspective and psychology perspective but the amount of trials and

it's really successful trials is so much data to treat depression with with psychedelics as psilocybin or even LSD did that ever enter your world or it does it now in a kind of more therapeutic way. I mean you don't have to answer that if you don't want to. I don't know the legal connotations that are not Australia or psychedelics. It doesn't matter if you listen to this mum you know who I am now it's all good. It's complicated for me in that part of the suffering

that I was in was a result of being really irresponsible with psychedelics taking a lot

“and quite frequently. I think there was a sense of creative curiosity with taking acid”

and the first few experiences I had were extremely intense. There are stories that I tell

and always get a reaction insane life change. Good to reality. I can't I can't they're too long

I have such a system for telling them they'll take 20 minutes. But really reality kind of bending experiences and I think having them really early on around 18 I then was chasing this like need for answers like trying to understand what those experiences were and continually revisiting again and again without any sense of and need to integrate. You can have a powerful experience but what I would say arguably arguably more important is the integration time

allowing yourself to process what you've come up what you've seen where you've gone having some level of emotional maturity which is probably difficult at the 18 19 20 21 and really not knowing yourself and most people don't really know themselves that well until late 20s early 30s. Yeah absolutely and the environments in which my friends were doing were like Jerry part party heavy environments, big festivals where they're designed to just capture your

attention all the time it's like a playground for adults and so there's no real opportunity for

“introspection or going inwards with what I consider medicine I mean I think psychedelics are extremely”

valuable tools and medicine but not in those environments it sort of becomes this like novel acidy playground where you're constantly drawn your attention is all over the place and that can lead to a feeling of being quite scattered and but yeah I think now my I stopped doing kind of everything part of my process of healing was to adopt this almost like acidic lifestyle and like was meditating an hour a day wasn't drinking coffee it wasn't drinking

I was vegan for years just went into like pieces of mode mode Zen mode and then that became its own kind of rigid structure that I have now moved away from and now mushrooms I think and their teachers they'll show you they'll show you what you need to see and done responsibly

the confusion and disregulation and everything that goes on in the background of your lives can be almost presented to you in this really gentle way yeah with a message saying none of it matters absolutely ego gets pushed pushed away

“just like huge takeaway nothing matters and everything matters yeah I think there um I think”

the times are changing and I think you know now it's much more of a I guess more of a scientific process in the research and now you know we see it in in in in reality outside of that container we see the you know a lot of controlled experiences and you know in my experience yeah I've

never done it in a in a uncontrolled never done suicide in an uncontrolled way it's always been

supervised and with a with a specific intent as well to move behind and just like you would take a panadol for removing paint but obviously this is completely different and I think like for a lot of people my parents always used to say you know don't experiment you know it's too dangerous to experiment but now I think the opposite I think going through those those years that you might have sounds like you experiment with a lot of different extremes and now you kind of you can pick and choose

those tools that might help you either creatively or with mental health or with your relationships or with your own ego in relationship to the self as well as your thoughts and like you said

“distractions and all the shit that just doesn't matter um so I think as we get older we can kind of”

figure out there's a little bit of the tool kit that I can step into every now and then to help so

it's good the only good place man and it's um it's nice to hear your experiences has been of of value so um and that kind of leads me into your latest book and I you did a book before Gumsucker but I I didn't really know you then and I want to talk more about this because I'd love for the book so much I arguably the book of 2025 but tell me before before we kind of get into the the idea of Gumsucker and what really what it's about I just want to know when

the photos you know published last year but when what any of the photos you're using Gumsucker taken during those those difficult periods that you you ended up using it with a much later on

“uh yeah yeah they were there's not heaps I think the oldest photo in Gumsucker is from 2016”

so it's been 10 years of shooting I think there are some pictures that just made it in

so Gumsucker that was shot at the end of 2025 no sorry um no not the end of 2025 like mid 2025 and then it was wow released they're kind of like yeah they just just made it in and your friends you know a lot of these portraits and they your friends like they're all all of them every audience are showing someone I might have the extremely close with though was extremely close with but still have some kind of involvement with them they're all

really important people in my last so I have the book here this was published by charcoal press I think I was October November yeah we launched it we launched in Paris so though in Los Angeles so okay um if but it was available a little bit before that on the book club I think I love it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um beautiful book I'm holding up to the screen now that the cover for those those that are watching and obviously I can't you know we'll show

some photos on the screen as we as we talk about it before we go into and in more detail just give us a you know I guess a son-op says sort of of the book itself what it's about you know there's there's not much writing in it which I absolutely love it's extremely poetic and it's suggested narrative but give us some for those that may not know it tell us what it's all about essentially it's funny that being the person who's taken the photos and that like having such a

deep connection to the photos and the people in the process and the memories I feel like I'm a terrible person to actually ask about the book okay it's not I have no one else to ask about it right now so totally no but that's fine I'm still happy to give you my my heads up and my what I guess whatever um for me it's it's not about anything like there's a narrative there there's a sequence there is a relationship between the pictures and a common thread

that weaves them all together and I feel like that's evident in the book everybody will find

it's not something I've been working on like this has come sucker and it started at this day

and then it's finished and the project is complete these are just pictures that I have taken in my life from places I've been to people I love and the beautiful part of the process that was quite unique for me and different from how I usually working was giving everything over

“to Jesse the publisher I sent him I think something close to 2000 scans of darker in prints”

and he just went with his intuition and over it it took us four years or so to make it

the first few years was just him revisiting this Google Drive document and finding photos

that spoke to him and pulling them and creating folders and letting him have access into my archive and the gun suckers the result of that collaboration between us and we used a sort of loose narrative structure to sequence the book he was seeing a lot of reoccurring themes of like people within natural landscapes and then this kind of addition of human intervention within the landscape this kind of incursions and like erosion and the remnants of humans that have been in beautiful places

and then this kind of return to an idyllic landscape so kind of moves through that trajectory almost this sense of paradise and then destruction and intervention and pollution and human bullshit and then moving into a sort of softer beautiful return to the natural world but that's not what the book is about that's just how the where you sequenced it so yeah such pictures of my

“life really I love I love you saying all that because I think we we can always be in danger”

of trying to insert meaning and story when it may not be there obviously a lot of photographers have a concept that they want to go out and and do and may kind of project that they they're working on right but I yeah I love the fact that you're honest enough to just there's a there's a real art and beauty in that and itself and we get on to the collaborative part in a minute but just before we we do I want to give it context because Jesse is the owner of charcoal publishing and you won the

charcoal publishing prize in 2023 which is the the ground prize of the cheico review right so I'm interested you said this wasn't really you know a project that you and I said we're working

“but you you have to have presented something in cheico right so what was that process like and what”

were you thinking about when you were presenting a set of images were you just as you described it just now were you just right as a member to tell me what you think or were you trying to formulate

something in the cheico review 2023 so I what I brought to cheico the first year was

project of sorts it was pictures that I'd taken all around Australia portraits, landscapes that kind of thing but I was going to locations where bush ranges were active so in Australia there's a the notion kind of cultural idea of a bush range and there are essentially 19th century outlaws that were really prevalent during the gold rush and there was a huge gold rush especially in southern Australia in Victoria and there were a lot of

distant franchise, extremely poor almost set low families that had been sent over from England obviously Australia was a penal quality they were either criminals or had a history of their family members being criminals and these bush ranges would go out and steal gold rob wealthy people but also

of Australia and there are a number of extremely famous bush ranges that are revered as

now heroes of Australian culture. Ned Kelly is the most famous one he had a group called the Kelly gang which was human his brothers and other various people that got involved and they went around and terrorized the Victorian aristocratic class and it was essentially Robin Hood they then shared their wealth with their family and the people in their community and I was really really fascinated by this kind of cultural mythology and going to these places where

there was these acts of violets that took place but then also with you know a hundred and two hundred

hundred and fifty years time have now like these people are celebrated and revered in Australia

“and so that's what I brought to Chico and hardly any of those photos around Gunsucker”

they were all doctoring prints that made them a cat and everything and I felt really strongly about the work I think it's really I'm really proud of that but Jesse wanted to see more he wanted me to share my archives with him and so I sent him everything and he was more inspired by other pictures that I was taking and so that was before you awarded with the prize or were you awarded with the prize? Yeah I didn't send him I think he kind of

what he before I was awarded the prize he said me a message of us like hey can I see some more

pictures I sent him essentially everything so maybe that helped in some way and is the is the

“product because I think we're coming up to the prize from this year I'm in the way it's announced”

either June or July um what do you know what the the process is maybe I should ask Jesse but it's is it he is he the one that decides or is it all of the reviewers kind of vote or then what's the process you know I don't think the reviewers vote I think he has the kind of ultimate decision but as you would know there are lots of people involved with Chico that kind of vote in like a staff but also photographers themselves and so I think there is some sense of

discussion amongst people there just dissecting work, understanding who who is a really strong photographer who is committed to a long term who might have like which photographer has work that maybe they haven't

“shown that's more interesting so I think Jesse ultimately would have the final say but I think”

there is strong sense of like discussion and collaboration amongst everyone who's involved and speaking of collaboration and you mentioned it earlier about the the book making process for those that may not understand you know the relationship between publisher artist give us an idea of you know the collaborative process I know you said you handed or you know archive to Jesse but what was that relationship like over four years in terms of the the formulation and the making

of this book just give us an insight into that world I think everybody yeah I don't know which fits and especially unique way of working I think a lot of publishers like to work that way the photographer is there to take the pictures and make the work and the publishers there to make the book and they have experience and instead of skills that the photographer should doesn't have and they also are running a business at the same time so they want it to be

profitable both for them but also they're the artists and I think some publishers give a lot more creative freedom to the artists to do the sequencing and tell the story in the way that they wanted to be told but when I was working with Jesse he did essentially all of the sequencing he sent me I've sent him all the photos and said there you go like to whatever you want with these and he would send me drafts and I would then make comments and revisions and edits on

his drafts and I think it took us 12 or 13 drafts of going back and forth and making little

of it I felt really satisfied right as it's scary just lack of control I think it was the first time

making a book in that way essentially the first book I'd made I had done a small addition with a

“local publisher before but it was very different process I think I had an idea”

in my head that I'd taken these pictures these people were important to me I have to be the one telling the story and over the course of four years I really let go of that and I'm so glad I did it feels it's exciting and interesting to give creative control over somebody else who has their own experiences then their own take on the work takes a lot of trust to do to give someone permission

to do that but the result is something that I never would have laid on my own and that surprises me

and inspires me to keep making homework yeah what about the design you know you're a very tactile person and it's like the dark room and the you know the physical craft of it did you have

“much say in that you know the book is put together so nicely in terms of its texture and material”

the paper used binding did you have much say in that or was that kind of a novel thing for you didn't really have much experience with and didn't want to get involved or how how was that collaboration uh I make a lot of handmade books it's my favorite way of of working with my pictures the materiality the texture different paper stocks is so important to me that's the thing that inspires me the most about the medium and making little silver gelatin prints and putting them in

books and so working with Jesse I didn't really have any say not that there was its face for me to contribute ideas but I just let him do it like I saw the quality of charcoal books they're beautifully printed and I knew that whatever he put together was going to be a beautiful

“object and I think also would have been quite difficult being on the other ups and sides of the”

world to have conversations or about the usual of paper so I I essentially gave him full rain and I didn't see the book you know physical form until the lodge in Paris who were that it was when I sat down to sign me yeah so it was a surprise for me I was looking at it for the first time

and then sighting copies for people and that's amazing yeah I was so I was so happy with the final

result I'd only ever say in a PDF but to his credit you did a wonderful job making a beautiful I would say quite traditional photo book but but still has elements of surprise and play now when it comes to photography the whole infrastructure of the internet rewards speed post more post faster be first be everywhere the algorithm doesn't care whether you went deep it cares whether you showed up yesterday and I guess that's not photography specific

now for me I built my work around a different bet that there are people who would rather go slowly and understand as something fully then go fast and understand probably nothing that depth is not a liability that the work you make when you take your time is categorically different from the work you make when you're chasing the feed maybe or chasing the algorithm now the mood inside us is built on that same bet it's a private community for photographers

and visual artists who are serious about the slow work we have monthly master classes where we actually go deep on craft and thinking we have a weekly book club monthly Q&As we have the podcast of course but add free with bonus content and we have direct access to me in my team it's not another newsletter you'll forget about not a discord server full of noise it's a room with a small number of serious people and a very clear and supportive focus it's just 19 dollars a month the link is

in the show notes and I really hope I can see you inside tell me more about that I guess rewind a little bit in terms of Chico what Chico means to you know we visited we met each other

Meats I know you feel strongly about the community that Chico is as well as obviously other

photography communities and and reviewing events etc etc tell me tell me more about that and why it means so much it's wonderful it's a wonderful place it's so it's the landscape is beautiful just that part of the world is completely enchanting but the opportunity to spend a week with people with 80 a hundred people who get it like they get it and you have the same references and the same

“love for the medium like oh my god it's incredible like I think photography it can be quite a”

lonely medium you know this like single operator out in the world just one step removed from everything going on there are moments of collaboration but really it's just you and your camera and trying to make sense of everything and so to have the opportunity to go to an environment as beautiful as that in rural Montana and be in the snow didn't snow this year but snowed other years and be in the hot springs and have a beer with someone who also loves photography as much as you it's like

so cool so cool this point it didn't snow actually this year yeah we too yeah like a best why go like I live in the in the tropics and you live in a warm country as well like we all

“some snow whatever almost so happy I mean the weather was glorious like it was warm and then”

clear skies and never almost like oh this is wonderful and you and I have been calling from Australia

and Balinese summer yeah yeah yeah yeah I want to be cozy front of a fire drinking the beer yeah um to give me like as an alumni you've been to Tico was that your third time for three times yeah um you know for people looking at potentially in I've been promoting Tico enough this year but um maybe you can do do that job a little bit for me now what what would you what piece of advice would you get it's expensive especially if you're coming from a long way like us or if you

you know the the the the the fee alone plus accommodation flies etc it's it's a it's a big deal

“what advice would you give people who are either thinking about it or are definitely going to do it”

how would you advise them to go about coming with a right attitude and and how to think about the Tico experience it is prohibitively expensive to a lot of people and I would say that is one of the biggest downsides it's unfortunate that in order for it to operate and be what it is it has to be pretty expensive it's a singular unique opportunity that doesn't really exist it doesn't exist anywhere else in the world um and in order for it to be sustainable and to run

there is a sheet involved uh which sucks because that like deter a lot of incredible photographers

making extraordinary work that just don't have the means to go um having said that I haven't had a conversation I've been three times I've met a lot of people I haven't met a person who has said it's not worth it uh everybody comes away with something enriching that justifies the expense and the travel and the emotional toll of it I mean holy shit like it's taxing it's so exhausting to have conversations about I would say most people there photography is their

greatest passion or at least one of them and to have to continually express your love for us also receiving other people's love for it and then talk about something that's really vulnerable to your art like vulnerable for you it's it's exhausting and so there is a lot of cost involved more than just the actual literal financial cost but man it's extremely special it's fine because put into words isn't it because yeah you think about it it's like oh there's

black and white portfolio review you go and you find out whether your body of work is on the right

there is that that it's almost a byproduct of it you know there's metaphorical hug that you

“get from 80 hundred people if you're lucky to to me everyone is indescribable and the”

support like you said you're in one location for a week knowing that everyone around you literally everyone around you gets it gets gets you maybe not kind of likes your work everyone kind of like yeah you and they get where you what you're trying to do and they get why you love it and they get you know your passion for it that's in today's society where everything is siloed and and polarized it's just so difficult yeah anyway like you said we are lonely maybe

what lonely but with solitary figures you go into the world and just trying to make sense of it with our cameras and then to be this focused environment is where everyone is in the same boat

“together is just so so powerful so that's the thing I would agree with you and suggest that”

people really think about is and Jesse told me this before Chico and I was like yeah yeah but I want to I want to kept but he's so right you know it's about it yeah okay you can you can slap words like networking and community and all that kind of stuff but it's really just people understanding you and that is just so it's just so it's just so meaningful and wonderful and it's just for a short week but it's you know it's like a drug that you want to keep getting all the time so that's that's

credit to Jesse what the puts together as well as all the reviewers that I know don't go there for money because I know that they don't get paid they could get paid more doing other things but um yeah be credit to to to to to the set up and hopefully I'll be back next year you're going to go back next year I'm not sure I don't think so send a message to Jesse to see if he'll help me back but maybe every one day I've reached the end of my table with his generosity it's he

his he has invited me back a lot so yeah maybe maybe I can be a rest of your one day we'll see yeah I'm sure you'll be um and if you know just a tire loop on the Chico thing so for people who can't afford it and it's just not for them because it's not for everyone where would you suggest people go or turn to to it's share the work get get a similar kind of community feeling because it's still quite difficult especially I don't know about you but here in Indonesia it's you know it's

difficult to find the same thing you might be able to get an America or Europe if people can't quite get Chico without how can you you know it advise them to find a similar type of thing is it sorry media yeah absolutely loads social media so yeah I'm not going to give it any credit although probably deserves some because it has been beneficial I think it's dependent on one way you are if you're in a big city Melbourne I don't know like it not Paris or New York maybe

not a huge city like that but somewhere where there are lots of people I would it depends on the also the work that you want to make and what your relationship is to photography what do you want to

“get out of it if you want to share your work and make a book then finding a local book club or a group”

of getting together a group of people within your community who have photo books just to look at

them might be a really powerful way of just sharing some of your pictures but yeah if you want to

be an exhibiting artist look at artist run spaces look at iris look at local like galleries that aren't commercial big operations and just put your work on the walls they usually will have an open call they'll have a group show just start by really putting yourself out there and seeing your work office screen even not supreme in your room and seeing it on a wall in a gallery space and then you go to the opening I love exhibition openings I love them there's sometimes extremely

pretentious and uncomfortable stuffy places but if there's wine and cheese like I'm there and you go to the opening and you meet people who either are exhibiting alongside you or are there

because they're interested in art and you just have conversations and it's incredible what happens

arise from just taking the step and doing something like submitting to a group show there's so many

ways to be an artist in the world it can be extremely difficult and it is a luxury it's a privilege to make art and it that it's not lost on me at all not a lot of people have this privilege and can afford to do what we do but yeah it's it's a wonderful thing to be creative and to share your work in small steps there's many ways to be an artist you don't have to go to cheeko you don't have to spend thousands of dollars on yourself publishing a book that you can

“start small and see what happened I think people can play quite a lot of emphasis on the this”

word networking I need to network I need to connect but actually as soon as you if you flip it and start thinking about what I'm just going to share my work somewhere and see what happens the networking is downstream of that you know like said just get if you go to an exhibition opening or you just you know answer an open call and put your work on the wall connections come from that community comes from that and that's the beauty of of sharing your work but a lot of people

feel to want it in fearful of sharing the work which is another mindset issue I think that people you know let me think believe that people have to try and battle through I've got the last few questions I kind of kind of make it a quick fire around in the same I guess tone of the cheeko reviews in this world and the galleries and you mentioned that a lot of galleries can be snobby and elitist which is just the art world generally

in those echelons do you think the photography world is can be elitist or at least there's gate keeping in in certain spaces specifically the publishing world it can be perceived like that we've got to know the right people you've got to be friends with the publishers to kind of get in do you feel that too yeah absolutely it's it would be inaccurate to say that is the full picture

“but it is definitely a part of photography I think that's as an extension of the art world”

as a whole and there is a lot of elitism and gatekeeping that's really frustrating it's really it's I even see that within Australia which you know relative to the rest of the

world isn't a huge export of art amazing artists we have a lot but unfortunately we don't

celebrate it as much as I think it should be but within the prize sort of a wall that Australia has the big category awards you see the same names every single year as far unless yeah and then you know there's a people who've been making art for 20 30 years and they're already celebrated already reviewed this is not to discredit them and say that they don't make good work but you see the list of finalists in what I'm not going to start name dropping awards but this sense of

almost like mechanism it's like this internal world of socializing where the same people are awarded because they can play the game really well and that feels so frustrating and alienating for people who don't have any reputation they could make extraordinary work but the name and the

“reputation seems to get you far in this world having said that I think there are a lot of incredible”

publishers and artists and galleries and curators who are rejecting that actual art world yeah I do see it I do see I think there are people who are taking risks with publishing and making books that might not necessarily be immediately commercial they're not easy they're playful they're you know exploratory experimental they're sacrificing sort of existing within that upper crust of the art world to make work that is actually engaging and I do I do see it it is there

how do we fix this gatekeeping mentality is it just something we have to work around

eat the rich a short note before we close for a while now the first thing I've done most

is set 10 20 30 minutes just watching the noise inside my head do what noise does it has it just

made me calmer in the way people imagine it's made me more honest more mindful more compassionate and more free in more ways than I could even describe and that honesty and introspective clarity more than any lens workshop or book is really what changed my photography the work I make now comes from a quieter place with more clearness and calmness I notice what I'm reaching for and I notice when I'm reaching for the wrong thing the inner critic still talks still exist I just

don't believe everything he says anymore the app I've used for most of this is waking up by Sam Harris it's the one tool I genuinely kept returning to all this time this is not a paid sponsorship from

“them however I am an affiliate partner and for good reason I believe that this app is worth it more”

than any other what's kept me there for years is that it's not just one thing is a guided daily meditation which is the spine of it for me but there are also short daily reflections a daily quote that tends to do its own quiet work in the background and these little moments they call it of awareness you can drop into during the day two minute resets when the head starts running there's also an

entire library of guest series with teachers I'd never have found on my own and a lot more besides

that it keeps the practice alive instead of letting it calcify into routine so a link sets in the show notes for a free 30 day trial and 20% discount on their subscriptions if you want the longer story though of how meditation reshaped my work there's also a piece link through my sub-stack page called there's no self development without self awareness anyway I hope you enjoy thanks for listening yeah okay let's not get it politics

last few questions what is your and these come from my audience so these last few questions these quickfire questions come from my audience that wanted to ask you some questions so some big questions are there what is your wish for photography itself over the rest of your working life

well I wish for it to continue to do what it always has done for me and that it's to understand

the world and relationships and myself in a way that is

“fulfilling and helps me helps me be a better person I think where do you see that not”

happening then in the social media world in the influencer world in the kind of the commercialization of photography in AI or where do you see that not happening for me personally or like just in the industry is it an education thing like we're not teaching we don't teach photographers properly or you know what is it that where I'm really sure my immediate response to that without having sort about it for a long time is that a lot of people's ego is getting away they run a show

and I think with photography maybe art in general books for some reason I see it a lot in photography and maybe that's because that's the world that I'm involved in people feel like they really have to like prove themselves and their value with their work and validation yeah they need the validation

“they need the attention I think that prevents really good work from being made”

great answer I love it is that your feeling does that connect with your feeling around social media then is that why you blow that so much? I know that because of the absolute chokehold that has on my life I think I have a you know a prickly beauty towards addictive behaviours it for whatever reason just like it's like I'm a kid with lollies and I have to be extremely disciplined about my use of social media what's your go to to to you know presume Instagram

is your social media choice or is it something else and what is your drug of choice when you're on that platform yeah it used to be YouTube but then I installed like an extension on Chrome that blocks all of the home feed and like suggested videos so now I can only like watch intentional

within Instagram as well where I got an extension that blocks all the reals and I'm going to show

“it's you content from people that you follow because those two together they're like unrestricted”

and I'm just like go on doomsgrowing yeah doomsgrowing on the toilet until yet it likes go numb yeah that sucks well I look forward to seeing your subscription to my YouTube channel yeah yeah that's enough as a reminder to my audience please subscribe subscribe subscribe

to least yeah but yeah but yeah I don't want to be that guy I've never been that guy but um you

know that I have some people telling me I need to be more of that guy um I digress last two questions um what do you know now that you wish the version of you at the National Arts School had no sorry your arts school what do you know now that you wish the version of you back then had known that you are not gonna die and it's gonna be all good wow nice last one if a listener changes one thing about their own photography tomorrow because of this

conversation what would you want that to be a great question wow that is a great question

uh if they change one thing about their photography listening to this what would I want it to be yep I would want this person but also everyone with a practice a creative practice to really truly find your voice what is it about your life that is unique to you

“speak once you find that create art from that place I think a lot of people get caught up”

in trying to over articulate or over conceptualize their work they elect we spoke about this before they have a project with an idea but I want I want for everyone's idea to be their authentic self-expression yeah that's the work they're really mostly when you see someone's world in their pictures I I this is a good time to plug my mentorship because it's all about that but I couldn't agree with you more my follow-up question to that though which is because you said um it's it's such a

big meaning for output in terms like when we when you and I and the majority people connect with art 99.9% that time is because the artist is found the voice and they're speaking from that right

so you know when people always ask me if it's a good photo if a photo is good or bad or this

book is better than this book or why this you know often there's not such things good or bad it's just what something means to you more than another thing it's always because of the authentic voice that it's coming from but my follow-up question would be how does one go about finding their voice until next time yeah to be continued to be continued for me I think it's different for everybody I think part of finding your voice is finding how to find access to your voice and um I think

for me the I'm still trying to do that I think if you have a practice um you will be trying to do that for the duration that you have that practice hopefully that's the rest of your life

“for me the best thing I think I could have done for myself was to just take so many photos like”

just have your camera with you and just take photos and there is this internal voice that we all carry with us that tells us that like stops us from taking a photo in the moment like you're almost thinking about the audience before anything has come to fruition and that little voice come in and I don't know that's not a good picture I don't take that especially if you're shooting film like there's a financial element to it as well yeah but man just like take the picture

just take it like it could be terrible but what's the worst that happened to spend 50 cents or a dollar on that negative you've lost that picture but for me I am now revisiting photos that I've taken 10 years ago and the pictures that I completely overlooked this isn't unique

what I'm trying to do now I did it back then and I didn't leave a note so just take the photo and then you find your voice everything which is in purple it's the time something emergency that is you

“love it I think a tiny little anecdote from the last week I was on this island called”

Sumba span hours east of Bali and I have a relationship with with people there been going back for a while and but I don't I'm not there all the time maybe a couple of times a year and it

always take and maybe you I think everyone might resonate with this takes me a few days to

like get the confidence back up to shoot especially if I'm shooting people and trying to speak a different language so I'm trying to connect with it you try to ask permission to like enter their house and you know all those types of like access things that when you're out by yourself on a scooter in the middle of buff nowhere you're just having to just get it done and I would you know last week I found myself doing I've been practicing this for you know a decade

and I still drive past a house or somewhere and I go that looks amazing those people are

interesting and the lights amazing I just let's stop and take a photo what's the worst that can

happen and maybe I get a mugged but not in this place the people are so so nice and then I'm playing this so I'd not sure if I can be bothered and then it's awkward like awkward trying to you know and then I know that everyone because I'm the only white guy with it in my eyes everyone's going to come and like try and get my attention and getting cameras and like you know that whole attention thing and I just want to not be seen and so I'm like I found myself driving back and

for like passing us out turning around now come on you're just going to take good going get access and you do so yeah that that little voice man has just take the photo yeah you know just just go and do it it's very very rare that you were regret taking that photo and like you said if if it doesn't come out I mean you don't even think about so I just didn't work

“like at least I tried so nice I think I'm adding on to that as well what one of the things I'm”

really focusing on in my life at the moment it's the idea of momentum positive and negative momentum and I think even if the photo is bad even if it doesn't work if you commit yourself to taking the picture that builds a sense of momentum you're more likely to take another picture next time because you have something behind you this scene I think this is applicable should literally anything in your life I think about it in relationship to like partying and drinking

not that it's like a huge problem but like if I had a drink and then I know that it like

your a weekend like you build up a kind of momentum in like oh I just never know the drink

but you can you can play with this it's wonderful once you're aware of well for me at least it's a way I live my life but once you're aware of this momentum you're like actually you know I would like move in this direction I just have to take the first step and then the second step and then the third step the third step is already taken like it's and then you're awesome away

“it's any I mean the mountains just energy and you know I believe so much in the power of energy”

whether it's positive or negative whether it's physical or mental I couldn't agree with you more and just being able to like come into an environment or come into a situation with that first step and that positive movement or you might fall into the other way you might take take one negative step that that that that that gathers momentum in itself but it it works it works so well in the photography world when you're when you're out there by yourself and and yeah that momentum is

it's a great concept to think about um Rory that's it for us thank you so much for taking time to to sit with me here and and for especially if you're honesty and your vulnerability and humility especially so for someone that's done a lot in the game and that has so much experience um I think it was a a real pleasure to talk to you and I know my audience be grateful for the insights they've gained today so yeah thank you once again yeah cool thank you thank you very

much to be in a really wonderful chat