12:00 P.M. with Patrick Ball, Katherine LaNasa and Valerie Chu

Always good, always good.

Always very happy. Cut, say, "Freshest" for Aldi. To Aldi price.

“This week, Tafeltrauben, 650 grams for 0.2 € 9.90.”

Or cultural heritage, 1.25 grams for 0.1 € 9.30. In your Aldi Nord, for years. And wait for it to be lost and finished. Aldi. "Goodest" for Aldi.

You check on her? You need to wash up on my hair, so... You know, sign language too? Princess her own is 6 languages. I know, friend, she's not a contest.

I'm just going to help her. Oh, yeah! No shit, talking in front of me. Get enough of that from her and Burla. Welcome to the pit podcast.

The official companion to HBO Max is the pit. I'm Hunter Harris, a screenwriter and cultural critic. And I'm Dr. Elok Patel, a physician, journalist. And I just finished watching episode 612pm in the pit a lot happened. A lot of interesting character moments.

We're going to get into all of it. We're going to be joined by Patrick Ball, who plays Dr. Frank Langdon, and Catherine Lennasa, who plays Charge Nurse Dana, also known as Hunter's favorite pit character. I definitely felt a sense of disappointment in him.

I mean, I really felt heartbroken. But I think when you're a mother, you know not to take this stuff personally, that people screw up. And we'll also talk to one of the show's writers, Valerie Chew,

who worked on this week's episode about how the writers work on character arcs and dramas while also weaving in the medicine. Those tiny moments of humanity from Dana, we talked a lot in the room about how her exterior

and her toughness is almost like she's calcified this season. But then you get little peaks of light coming through. And this is one of those moments. Today's shift starts now. Episode 6, I want to do a little recap

“on all these really big and important character moments”

that happened this episode, because there were some real moments of tension and friction that I want to talk about. - Oh, for sure. And you know, obviously, you know me, and I love all the medical jargon and terminology,

but there's an underlying message with each patient scenario and each kind of encounter also. Like, there's so much happening in this episode. - Yeah, let's get into it. So we start off very sad, Louis died

and Robbie and Langden kind of have a moment where they're looking at each other thinking, "How do we save him?" And they just can't process it to you, him. It was really like broke my heart.

I love Louis. - Wish we could be a CC? Too late for that. And he's done an excellent candidate. Nothing else we can do.

- All right, I think we're done. - I think the Louis development throughout multiple episodes kind of came to this climactic moment. And like, I feel like we were there in the hour

with them also being like, "Ah!" And when Dr. Robbie said not an ECMO candidate, ECMO extracorporeal membrane oxygenation, fancy way to say a life saving invasive technique

to basically give some artificial lungs and hearts.

Oxygen in your blood for you. When they said he's not a candidate, that kind of was the hint to them. They're like, "There's nothing we can do to save him if we can't save him right now in this moment."

- Yeah, watching everyone kind of come to that same conclusion that there's something more that they can do is really sad. - I know, it's like, "Oh, man, Louis."

But there's one little, one little moment that I have to give Dr. Robbie, I should say, "No, I'll quietly credit for."

“Remember, we were talking to some of the actors”

and they were mentioning how hard it was to do chest compressions in the setting and how hard it was to fake it. No, while he's nailing those chest compressions, I think.

Like, I'm looking at that. I was like, "That was some good chest compressions." - No, it was, it was kind of sad to see him try, like the physicality of that moment. I thought played really well.

Like, it really talked at the hard strings. And of course, this episode ends with viewing Louis' body. And I think it's LinkedIn, right, who finds a photo. And then we have all this kind of like wonderful lovely,

but very heartbreaking moment. - I didn't expect this, but that hit me the hardest, emotionally at a beginning we've seen so far on the show.

- I never really wanted kids, but Ron to warm down

and when she finally got pregnant, he changed his tune, he got excited. I'm gonna bet a month before the baby was due and Ron didn't the baby were killing the car crash. - Though we never really came back from that.

- I love that that is treated sort of as like, how would we find that out otherwise?

and that we're just now all learning this together, like with the rest of the staff. That was really special. - Emma holding his hand was really sad

'cause it is like her first day

and compared that to how Ogle V reacts and mean my goodness, like, Emma's a good egg. - So then later, we have a pretty tender moment, I would say, between Dr. Langdon and Nurse Dana, where Dr. Langdon kind of apologizes

for his behavior, he's like doing the 12 steps and Dana's like, no, we're good, don't worry about it at all. - Look, I... - I am... and work in the 12 steps, trying to make a mens.

I was really selfish. I lied to myself, and I lied to you. - I'm really sorry. - You can check now if you let's get, what good? - Okay.

- Yeah, I'd love a patient for you and tell us, get you back on the horse. - It was like, layers being peeled back from the onion that is charge nurse Dana. - Yeah, and also...

- 'Cause she's such a tough, tough person and she was like, we're dealing a little bit of her softer human side. - That she couldn't stay away from the pit that she went home for a couple weeks and got bored

and I'm like, I get it. Like, you have kind of the coolest job in the world. - It's like this toxic relationship. - You know, it hurts you and you have problems but then you're like, I miss the excitement.

I miss the roller coaster and it's also part of her identity. - Mm-hmm. - And we also get a little moment where she calls LinkedIn slow.

Like, he coming back is not as quick as he used to be, which I thought was pretty satisfying.

“- Which I also thought was important for her to say to it.”

Like, somehow she's the one to say that time and he would get it the right way. He would be assaulted. She gave in that little cake like a little brother. Like, all right, you healed, you're good,

but like, I need, I need Dr. LinkedIn back now. - Right, and that buck up. - That's the attention that Robbie isn't giving him. - Hunter, I feel like throughout season two, we've had these light touches on technology

in the clinical setting. We've been talking about this tension regarding AI that's building up between Dr. Robbing that Dr. Alhaashimi. Now, San Dose with her charting issues starts to use AI

and there's a little bit of an air in a patient chart because she didn't prove freed what the generative AI wrote for her. - A little bit of an air. I'd say a pretty substantial air, a few, actually.

- Dr. Alashimi. - Yes. - Like, San Dose was just using your AI tool for her charting and it hallucinated the history of appendicitis. - As I mentioned, Dr. Santos' generative AI is not perfect.

We still need to prove freed every charting creates. - The patient tells us a history of headache, followed by Dr. Perk from neurology. - That should probably be neurology. - Unless neurologists are now treating migraines.

- Let this be a teachable moment for all medical trainees

“or people adopting tech, you have to prove freed.”

I'm just going to, I'm just going to take a stand and say the machines are not going to be as accurate as human is. - Yeah, I'm like, what else could be in the person's chart? No, or like how many other mistakes have happened that San Dose hasn't taught yet?

- But also, neurology versus neurology, I've had to fix that correction on the phone. What someone said, people hear like neurology at 2 a.m. and they're like, are you talking about neurology? - neurology is a bladder, right?

- Neurology, yeah, I think, I think Canadian bladder. - Okay. - Neurology, I think brain. - Yeah. - Even if I was saying something like, "Clauna Dean" or "Clauna Penn," two different drugs.

We're talking about the difference between treating blood pressure and anxiety. And that's so easy to make that mistake. - Wow. - But this is an interesting full-circle moment

because you see San Dose like trying to figure out

easy tools that you finally use is the tool

that Dr. Alhashimi is like, use AI, use AI, and then the mistake happens and then someone angry comes down and is like, what does this happen to me, what does this mistake? - And I mean, my goodness, I'm kind of over Santos

complaining about the charting. I'm like, girl, just stay late like everyone else. - Also, I don't understand why she's the only one who do the other ones are they not doing their charting 'cause I don't see them charting,

but somehow she has all the charts. I don't know, something's not adding up. - And I don't know why Dr. Alhashimi is still hard in her about it. Like, repeating your R2 year come on.

- That was very aggressive. Like, I am very team, Dr. Alhashimi, but that was that one little moment when I was like, "Homie, no one's repeating R2 year because they didn't finish charting in one shift."

- We're Santos defenders. - I will be in residency forever. - If it came down to not finishing charts on time. And all my colleagues, Listen to your watching as podcasts are nodding their heads.

(laughing) There's a lot of interesting patient encounters. One thing I love about this shows, you get an interesting patient coming through

and you just never quite know what the lesson's gonna be

or what the writers are trying to teach us. You have this potential case of poor treatment and malnourishment in a correctional facility in this patient, Gus, also a great moment to really see some of the heart come out and a staff.

And then you have this evil, conneval style accident with this motorcycle as Brandon Lee, presumably he fell from a motorcycle pyramid or something. And there is this again, this back and forth about motorcycles and helmets

and this undertone of what Dr. Robbie

“is doing the risks and all this, what was your takeaway?”

- Well, I mean, of course, this patient is the one who's like so gun-haw and Dr. Robbie going mystical. And it's like, well, sweetheart, you're laid out right now, you're literally in the hospital.

I like how everyone is like,

"Hmm, what does a single accident, Dr. Robbie? "What do you think?" - You're like looking at him and you know, there's, were you wearing a helmet? And he's like, what is that?

- Of course, that's what I just said. - Someone said like, "Oh, they're still in fashion." - Yeah, I was just saying, of course. - Of course, of course. - Here's my question though.

You know, aside from the fun of the moment, if you will, do you think that this case is gonna have some type of impact influence on Dr. Robbie and this sabbatical, him wearing a helmet

“is there a foreshadowing moment that we're seeing here?”

- Okay, so I don't know if Dr. Robbie's gonna actually make it to his sabbatical. I don't know if he's gonna go because I feel like they keep mentioning it and all of these little cases that come in and kind of challenge,

like the motorcycle thing, should he really leave? Like it's leaving the ED and good hands. I don't know, I'm thinking that maybe he's gonna build the last minute, but I do think that there's definitely some type of foreshadowing

that maybe the motorcycle of it all might shift or change. 'Cause I know he's looking forward to it though, we'll see. - So you think it's deeper than just this evil conneval mishab? - Oh, totally different, we're going deeper than that.

- I think that Dr. Robbie's really being faced with what is the real, what's it really at stake here for him going this sabbatical? What is he looking for on this long ride? I think we'll see.

- And again, kind of continuing on with the theme of this episode, I feel like, which is patient encounters and they're underlying meaning, which I cannot wait to talk to Valerie, Joe, but we see Roxy and she's with her death, Dula,

but then also some type of push and pull with her husband and her not wanting to go home, is it because she doesn't want to be at home, is because she doesn't want to be with him.

We don't quite know, we also have this powerful moment

with this patient who needs a sign language interpreter. And again, to me, that scene strikes me as a moment of really being able to be there for patients with cultural competency and accommodating them and making sure that we have the same amount of resources

and equity for all cases. But I want to just with Roxy, what do you think is happening at home with her? Do you think, what is the reason that she doesn't want to be around her husband?

And she's like, go away, dude. - I don't feel right behind you. - No, no, I'm riding in the back with you. - Yeah, I'll stay with her. - Are you sure?

- Okay. - I don't think it's such as I want to be around him.

“I think that it's emotional to be at the end of your life”

and also to see the kind of toll that she's taking on her husband and on her family. You know, being a caregiver is a lot of work and very personally draining. And I feel like maybe she feels responsible

for kind of taking over his life with her care. And it's almost maybe way of exercising her own agency. Like regaining a little bit of dignity. Like I want to stay in the hospital. I don't want to be burden anymore.

And I think it's very moving and I wish she could understand that a little bit more. But I mean, he can't, he loves her, you can't see past that. - And I respect his persistence. And when he says things like I want to take care of you,

you're my wife. And like you mentioned, she must feel some type of guilt. And it's the caregiver population in this country is only growing. - Yeah.

- And I feel like this is probably a very common scenario. Sadly, the lot of people are going through. - Yeah, I wondered too how much of it is like, I don't want to have to adjust their home life anymore to her illness.

Like if you say it's in the hospital, then it's just one less piece of medical equipment that their sons have to be surrounded with and see every day. And I think that's real moment of like her trying to care for everyone else in her life.

Moment of the episode for me, though, was Nirstena when that man grabs Emma's arm. - The beg spit and curse for food, but she got to stay strong. - Hey, I'm waiting for an hour. When am I going to see a fucking doctor?

- Excuse me. - Excuse me. - Perhaps you didn't see this, which is strange because they're all over the place. A aggressive behavior toward healthcare workers

is a felony. A $2,000 fine possible jail time. Got it? - Dana immediately explains an action. And you also see kind of the trauma response

to like how she was treated last season when she was punched. And she's very no nonsense about it. And I like that Emma is introduced to the pit with that moment, you know, that she sees like,

you can really advocate for yourself.

“And you should not take that kind of behavior lightly”

or you should stand up for yourself. I think that was really good. - And she deflated that dude's anger. - Yes, and the way that she even like brings the hospital bed like arm backup to like block him

even more, just the physicality of that was so good. - I don't know if I have a moment. I have like five moments at the episode, but I have a quote award. - Okay.

- The quote award, my opinion, goes to Whitaker,

who says always listen to the nurses

they run the ER, we just try to stay out of their way. - I mean, everyone should be very upset. Like, no, they're really, like, I love all the nurses. And I think this is a great episode where they're just as quick, just as like,

interested in patient care, obviously. But, you know, no, they're good at reading people. All of these nurses, I think that's like, they're really good interpersonally. Especially when you have like medical students like Ogile V

where I'm like, oh my gosh, even when he like tells

- Oh my gosh. - No, they're the nurses that are like

“understanding the push and pull dynamics emotionally.”

- Do you guys hear about Louie? - Yeah. - Yeah, chronic alcoholic, don't figure. - Hey, Fento de Insalt 20 is ready for this charge, but could you get Louie Pay to call him a ride?

I need to check on Louie. - Uh, actually, Whitaker. - He croaked. What? - Five minutes ago, Robby called him.

- I'm Bogita. - 'Cause they're teaching residents out more than just patient care. They're teaching them about empathy. - Yeah.

- About bedside manner. And like, no, the minute Ogile V says that, and then Perla and Tagalog is like, fucking you guy. - Yeah.

- Yeah, that was a really good moment. - I was like, yeah, because we were all doing the same way too. And when I was like, "Uh, Ogile V, "you don't know what you're talking about.

"This is Louie." - There's a fun, I mean, there's, there's many little quick medical moments that I really like in this episode. One line, again, charged in her state now.

She's so fast. When they have those pastries, and it seems like administration sent them down. - Yeah.

- When he's always comments about frustration,

you know, about again, like, we are burned out. They are not getting a staffing. They're not doing anything, but they're giving us food. - Yeah.

- Would you like blood money, don't you? - I had men, blood pastries. - Yeah. - Which is awesome. - I have a single one of them

can forget about extra shifts. One higher and more nurses. - One patient decent wage. - One higher security, they can actually protect us from patients, but absolutely send donuts.

- Should we want to go into this line of work? - Come and get you one. - Of course, I do, but I'm not taking admins blood pastries. - Oh, hey, two, don't you?

- Usually the joke is about pizza parties.

“I think that's like a corporate burnout joke”

with her like, "Oh, hey, you know, "everyone's burned out. "We can't afford to ramp, "but the C-suite bought us pizza." - Yeah.

- I honestly think hospitals stopped buying so much pizza, especially around the pandemic, because if how much people make fun of it on social media. - Straight up. - Straight up. - No, you could be right, that's very stupid.

- Yeah, people were just like, "I don't, we don't need a pizza party." Like during nurses appreciation week, nurses are like, wait, we can't pay for parking, we're burned out, we don't have support staff.

Please do not buy us more pizza. - Right, yeah, pizza over support staff is crazy. - Yeah, or admin blood pastries. I'm gonna open up a donut shop called Addon Blood pastries.

- You know, I'm a nurse Dana fan. Like, I write for her like, no one else. We got to talk to Katherine Linasa, who plays nurse Dana, and also Patrick Ball, who plays Dr. LinkedIn.

- I just immediately wanted to salute how incredible

they are in the show, they're acting. But in my mind, I was like, you got Dr. Langdon, Harrowx, you know, resident, goes to a struggle in a season one,

comes back season two. What is that life for the character? And then with Katherine, I wanted to be like every single nurse I work with, salute to you and how you portray Charger and Dana.

- And even non-nurstous, like myself. (laughs) (bell dings) - You look good, get out of your feeling. - Oh yeah, great.

You know, it's been, it's been a journey. - Bad. - Thanks, you're all be around. - He's in with a trauma, but if you're hurry back, you can catch some of the past songs there in the morning.

- Thanks. I'm keeping an eye on him. Patrick, we want to start with you. Langdon starts season two on the outs after having a deal with his drug use and goes to rehab.

How do you think he approaches a reintegrating back into the team? - I think he's a probably pretty scary day. I think he's been away for 10 months. I think last we saw him.

He said some pretty desperate things to his mentor,

“Robbie, who I think is very important to him”

and has been probably one of his closest relationships in his life. And I think that relationship has been greatly damaged. I think over the last 10 months, he has gone through rehab and has probably had to do

some soul searching that he hasn't previously had to do and he's probably been at home with his wife and two kids and had to be present as a father and a husband and a way that he has not. And I think he's also been parked.

He's been stopped. I think there is an inertia to being in the pit

of just moving fast and always jumping on the next grenade

and there's a rhythm to that and he is not on that rhythm. And he's come back in and I think it probably feels a little bit like jumping on a moving train. - A lot of moving parts.

- Catherine, I tell you, I work with a lot of nurses. And charge nurse Dana is like a crowd favorite. - Thank you. - 'Cause you come across as like charge nurse Dana is running the ER but then it also is like mother-in-hand.

Like part badass part burnout healthcare professional. (laughing) Then there's compassion in there. - Yeah. - We see in the bedside and with colleagues but we know that charge nurse Dana is also human

starting to kind of express them in this experience with the assault. How is charge nurse Dana processing it? What's going through a mind? - I don't think she's processing anything very well.

Like I had a little story that I made up for myself which was that she was kind of white knuckling it after the punch and she decided not to press charges. This is the story that we'll find out. What of her daughters was like,

you know, this isn't really working for you. It may be you need to get some therapy. And so in my mind, she's did a little bit of like group therapy. You know, her mother died when she was 16 is the back story on her and that's around

when she started volunteering at the hospital. So I think she's kind of run away from her own grief her whole life.

“So I think the punch was really significant in that way.”

And I think we're gonna see, I think I made up that she did that and that she probably did some self defense so that she could feel a little empowered. It just was what came into my imagination.

But I think we're gonna see someone that is really still not that well in it together, you know, when any type of violence comes up in the ER, any type of aggression comes up. You'll see a day and a that's responding to that in a different way.

I think that, you know, this is a Robert Creely poem a North Carolina poet actually that says,

you know, something like never deny the people in their place.

It's just like that's the whole poem. But there's something about taking people out of their place that's very humiliating, you know, and I think that's a place where she felt a lot of pride. She probably lifts her whole family up with that job.

And, you know, it's a hospital in her town and here she is running this big part of it, you know, and well, things was a really big deal. Very significant. - Can you talk to us a little bit about the dynamic

between both of your characters? Because at this point in the season, we see Turchers Day and I kind of tell Robbie, hey, either you're like icing him out or you're letting him back and you make up your mind.

“How do you think she feels about landing coming back?”

And how does he see her as a supporter of his? - I think that, you know, I have a child around Patrick's age. And I have a younger child as well, you know, I think Dana is a wise old mother that has seen a lot, you know, and kids mess up, you know, Dr. Robbie doesn't have any kids.

You know, it's one stepson, you know, it doesn't really know the journey that you take with children as they become young adults with some of them, you know, go astray and they mess up. And I think Dana believes in redemption.

I think she really believes in this kid. I'm, I definitely felt a sense of disappointment in him. I mean, I really felt heartbroken. But I think when you're a mother, you know, not to take this stuff personally

that, you know, that people screw up. And so I think she wants Robbie to give him a second chance. You know, give him a second chance or fire him. You know, let him go somewhere else. But this is torture, it's torture.

And from your side, how do you see Dana?

“- Yeah, I mean, I think Dana is a pillar for length.”

And I think she always has been.

I think she's a pillar for everyone at PTSD. And I think, I think also she's like a friend. She's like a close, close friend. And somebody that laying in depends on frequently. And I think when he comes back after this time away,

I think it can be difficult to look someone like that in the eye. There's a, there's a lot of shame there. There's a lot of guilt about having, having let a mother of sorts down like that.

And to have everyone around you know that you are not okay. I think there's a lot of guilt there. And I think it can be difficult to come back with the same familiarity. But I think also you walk in the door and you realize,

oh, actually maybe Dana isn't just a care machine that is just here to take care of me and make me feel better. And maybe because of the work that I've been, that length has been doing in the last 10 months,

he may be sees Dana in a different way. And sees like, oh, she's actually not just here to make me feel better. She actually is struggling in a way that might be new or maybe I didn't notice before.

But I think he is confronted with the fact that this, this cycle of care is a two way street in a way that feels, feels new.

- You know, at the start of season two, first episode.

People are thinking, you know,

Also, Dana may be retiring.

She's burned out. We see Layndon chillin with the penguins hat and the way in triage coming in. And obviously, Christina did not step away at all.

“What do you think it was like for Charles, Christina?”

And Blankton, to be away from the yard for that period of time. What was missing? - I think for Dana, it's something that she knows that she does well.

You know, I've talked to a lot of eating nurses. And that is usually the thing is that they felt like they could do it better than somebody else. The one in Pittsburgh, the charge nurse at Allegheny,

told me that her mother was dying. And she saw those nurses and she thought, I can do this better. I know what's needed here and she went to nursing school and became a nurse through that experience.

So I just think it's definitely calling. And I think there's really nothing like feeling really competent and useful at something. And I think if you have that one thing that you do, you step away from it.

You kind of have a loss of the sense of self, right? Or a loss of purpose.

“So I think returning was really the only way”

to get that back. - Yeah, I think well said. And I think Blankton's the same way I think he drives

a lot of identity out of being first to arrive,

last to leave. I'm gonna work harder. I'm gonna move faster than anyone. And I think that has covered a void that has been covering a wound.

You know, I think there's probably a lack of self trust there and a feeling of uselessness that is constantly being defended against. I know that I'm being useful in it right now. I know that I am helping others.

I loved that moment of Katherine saying that you know, she in real life has a child around Patrick's age, but that maybe because Christina is a mother, she feels a little bit more, it's easier for her to forgive. She's used to people, you know, kids making mistakes

and kind of forgiving them and moving on in a way that Robbie might not be. I thought that was like pretty astute. - It's also interesting to kind of try to get inside Patrick Ball's head

“about like what is a trajectory of Dr. Lansing to be,”

what is this sense of identity as a dr. going through this, but then also as a husband and a father, there's so much swirling around in his world. - Simon, you're the best player, also this school flashback,

just over the night, and then I hope that it's stimmt. - Paul, no, gar nicht. How do you stay as my safe space? - Mm, do you know what it's all about? - Yeah, exactly.

How do you stay as your app, who just understands, egalabstudium, job, or unzug. - Casteem, krass. - Furtig gar nicht wie steuernan. - Steuerneliedig?

- Safe. - Mit wieso steuernan. - For out to the pet this week, let's talk to someone who's some inside information. Let's see here from Executive Story Editor Valerichu

who wrote this week's episode. - Super excited for this one. - Okay, Valerie, you're an Executive Story Editor on the pet. Thank you for being with us today, because I have so many questions about writing for a show like this.

- Okay. First, like, what were the earliest conversations like in the room about breaking season two, and like, where we pick up the story and these characters again?

- Yeah, I think, you know, season one had a slightly different process in terms of character development because Scott Gammal already came in with extremely fleshed out characters. He, Noah describes it as like when he pitched the show,

he pitched these characters as though they were people in his life.

And so we had an amazing groundwork for season one

because he had all these ideas for their arcs for the tent poles like the mask casualty. So going into season two, it was a bit of a clean slate. We were trying to figure out, you know, how much time should elapse.

I think we liked the idea of 10 months because it allowed our character, since we cannot do traditional character arcs in a show that's in real time. It allowed us to give a little more juice

in terms of like where the characters have grown since season one. So that was sort of the easiest decision I would say in terms of how much time has elapsed. But in terms of character stories and arcs,

it was sort of figuring out how to not try to outdo ourselves but stick to the character, stick to the things that we had already planted in season one. I'm trying to get into specifics here like, we knew that we wanted Mel to sort of have a harder day.

I think we did have kind of more time to talk

it was sort of more fleshed out

before the writer's room came into it. - Now speaking of character development, I mean, Hunter and I will sit and just deep dive and what we think is happening with characters behind the scenes, but I love to ask you,

this episode, Big Moment, with LinkedIn and Chargerner's Dana. And I would love to hear from you as a writer who's kind of

“putting this together, what did you want the audience to see there?”

There's like friendship, there's LinkedIn worry about betrayal, there's this, am I upsetting my mentor, my motherly figure, like, what did you want the viewers to see? - Well, it was sort of born out of the idea that I feel like this is a nurse-centric episode.

And as we developed this episode, it sort of became more clear that it was a Dana episode. We don't do that on the show. We don't highlight specific characters episode episode.

And this was a unique opportunity

because we were trying to go through the nurse lens to kind of highlight Dana. And so it was kind of two-fold. On one hand, I wanted to show how she really is the mother hen of this group.

And on the other hand, it felt like after six hours, we haven't really gotten a sense of landins last 10 months. A lot of beginning of seasons tend to be set up. And you're not gonna lift back the curtain right away. But once landin' is six hours in,

“like who is that person he's gonna talk to?”

Who's that confident on? And how is his confidence flagging six hours in when he's sort of feeling insecure about being back at work? And then the other thing was like,

we tend to kind of look back at season one and the seeds that were planted. So when I wrote that scene, I kept going back to the beautiful scene that Scott wrote in the finale of season one.

And it's in that exact same kitchen space between Dana and Landin. And it's when he's telling her, he's trying to sus out what she knows, whether she's heard about him stealing the meds.

And even just the blocking, no one I talked about like having that same sort of, like him leaning over at the sink as she's trying to make coffee. Just this idea that 10 months later,

“these characters, they haven't talked to each other.”

But they're still kind of that closeness because they've known each other for so long. And so I felt like it sort of served two purposes. We got to know a bit more about Landin and like who's that person he's gonna open up to

in the ER? But also we get to see Dana in her finest moments. And also another peek behind the curtain in terms of where she is with her PTSD. Like in that scene he asked her like,

he didn't know what happened after that day in terms of the guy who punched her, the patient who punched her. So he asked her like whatever happened. And that was sort of a way of like,

not I wouldn't go as far as to say retriggering her, but it's a way to sort of remind the audience that like this was kind of a hard decision. And Catherine made a beautiful acting choice to sort of like look away from him

when he asked that question. And then you can tell she's just sort of like putting on this like straight face because she doesn't want to think about it. - Babe or a rest that guy punched you?

- Yeah, I don't know if I want to press charges but I don't want to go through all that. Thought I was done, we did, but I've poured it out. - When we talked to Scott and John earlier this season they described like character as the core of the show

and then the medicine as the wallpaper. And I want to know from you like how does that carry into a story like Louie's that is super character driven but also like medically interesting as well. - Oh, Louie.

- Yes, yeah, that was a big debate in the room. I was in the beginning we didn't know if we wanted to kill him off because I feel like on this show what I love about our processes

that we're never doing anything for dramatic purposes

or for like, you know, I often talk about gratuitous television and if it's like overly sexual or overly, you know, like if things are sensationalized just for the purpose of dramatic storytelling. So we didn't want to just throw in a death for no reason.

And there was a big debate about whether he should die and I was on the side of no. But I think it sort of dugtailed nicely with the fact that this was a nurse episode and I spoke to a lot of nurses for this episode

who talked about what it is like for those on house patients who come in. The nurse that I spoke to, who my love so much, she's a charge nurse who Catherine has sort of shadowed her and gotten advice from her but she works at LA County

done by USC and she talked about how, you know, you see these people every day but it just sort of feels

sometimes they just like keep coming in. But then like when someone dies, like it really does affect you in a way that you didn't expect.

You just expect that person to always be there.

Again, going back to the idea that we knew the nurse was going to be the centerpiece of the episode and how can we sort of show that, you know, they are the ones who are with these frequent flyers, these unhoused folks day to day.

They're the ones who are, you know, checking in on them. They're the ones contacting family, trying their hardest to find anyone who might have known this person would care about their passing.

“And I think it was one of those things we sort of stumbled”

in like those happy accidents that happened creatively. I can't say that it was necessarily planned but it ended up working out really well because you see how every nurse is affected by their passing. And then just this idea that I really loved, you know,

we tried to kind of set up the mystery of who was this person. We've seen them every day or every other day or frequently for the last few years. And we don't know who they are. And then you find out at the end of the episode

that Robby, you know, during one busy, one slow night, got the whole story. And it was very much in line with the actor's journey. His name is Ernest, the actor who plays Louie. He didn't know that he was going to die

and then when he found out he was understandably really upset because he felt like, wait, this character hasn't, we don't know who this is, we haven't gotten a backstory or anything. And then the story goes that he read the script and he went up to Noah and he was just like tears in his eyes

“like so moved because now Robby gets to tell his story”

in that ulogy. And it sort of goes hand in hand with how I assume like for a lot of the patients, you might find out about their life when their family comes in and tells you

but not until after you've treated them, not until after the fact and I appreciated the way that we structured it so that we would find out about that later. - Wow, the depth of the medical research and the fact that you mentioned you were talking to nurses

to learn about characters and workflow and emotions just kind of speaks to what comes across on camera. Sometimes I watch a show and I'm like Valer obviously sat in on med school classes because of terminologies on point.

But even like the fun nuance is like in this episode, admin, blood, pastries, hilarious quote by Charisma Stana.

Whitaker then says this amazing line

when he's like nurses run the ER, your best bet to stand other way. I just wanted to ask you like getting the medical terminology correct, making sure the medical accuracy is there, versus writing out characters.

You mentioned that Dr. Stax is like, we don't want characters first, but how does that process work for you? - Well, I can speak to the blood pastry moment. So I actually shortly after we started the rumancies

in one, I decided to start volunteering at the LA County USC Hospital. And my thought behind that was, I don't have a medical background. I feel like a bit of a fraud writing a medical show

when I haven't been in that profession. And I felt like the ER is a very uncomfortable place where really hard things happen. And if I'm not willing to sit in that discomfort, I don't know personally, I just feel like a bit of a fraud.

So I started volunteering there. And just, I can't do much, obviously, 'cause I'm not like certified or anything, but just observing the space and seeing how people interact it

and seeing the little moments of connection between each other, between patients and healthcare workers. The blood pastry idea was pulled from my experience there. There was a day where admin, and obviously they have really good intentions.

But you can be real. - Yeah, so they sent down

“these ice drinks for, I think it was nurses week.”

And I just saw the charge nurse, similar to how Dana reacts, so furious. Refused to have any coffee, I'm not taking that, like just so angry about just even this gesture without all the other things that they,

all the support that they lack in the ER. And so I kind of just took that for the story. And I thought it was really, I don't know, it also felt relevant to the statement we try to make in terms of like,

there are these gestures that are made, but not real changes that are, and support that's given to the healthcare workers that really need a substantive, like, administrative change to kind of allow them to do what they're doing.

And trying to think back to your question

about approaching character, I mean, Scott always says,

"Just let the characters guide you." And I think on this show now that we've had season one

I'd never written on a medical show.

And then kind of watching the actors do what they did on season one, being able to hear their voice, because when we started writing,

“I think when I wrote my episode in season one,”

we had not yet cast the show. So it was hard to hear the voices in my head. Scott obviously had that down because he knew them and had been developing them. But I am somebody who, I actually hear the actor

a lot better, and it helps me write when I'm writing, rather than just kind of, I know character traits and whatnot if I don't know who the actor is, but it's not the same. And so in season two, I felt like it was just more

about listening to those voices thinking about what we've already established new angles in which we could see these characters. And there was a little bit of like, we did come into the room this season with more,

I guess agenda for the types of medical cases we wanted to see. But at the end of the day, like people are watching, because they relate to these characters that Scott has created.

“And I think the challenge was just layering it”

where some people would have a more dramatic change over 15 hours. And some people would just be having a bad day. I mean, that was Whittaker's story for season one was there wasn't a big life change.

He just had a really bad first sentence.

It feels like a nose goes, like who's gonna have like just a really bad day today. Exactly, yes, season two and Santos. So I gotta ask you, I don't know if you have one or 50 answers, but do you have like a really proud moment

in this episode, favorite moment? Favorite moment? I can tell you what moment made me cry. I don't really cry on set when I'm watching. I have this awareness that is like we're filming and we're on set.

When she, when Catherine is wiping down Louise's body, he's freak of flyers. He can be a real pain in the ass, but you miss him when they're gone. Like she just delivered that in such a way.

“I think it was the combination of her humanity”

cleaning up the body and also just, you know,

you see that she's lived through so much with this patient.

And you see how like those tiny moments of humanity from Dana, we talked a lot in the room about how her exterior and her toughness is almost like she's calcified this season, but then you get little peaks of light coming through. And this is one of those moments.

So the layers that Catherine was able to play in that scene and then seeing Laticia who plays Emma, her vulnerability, and her shock of like, she's probably seen, you know, this, she seen people die, but like the intimacy of cleaning a dead body and like them addressing that

in the scene. The combination of that just, it moved me to tears in a way that that doesn't happen often. And I remember Noah called cut. He turned around looked at me and he was, you know,

equipping that he was just, he was amused that I was, that I was crying like in a good way that, you know, the power of like his direction and Catherine's performance and Laticia's performance had like had this emotional impact on me.

So that moment was really great and then just seeing, you know, just seeing more of our nurses, seeing more of Perla, her emotional response, giving more to Kristen who plays Princess. I think I'm just proud that the idea of having

a nurse episode was Scott's idea and we just really didn't know what that would look like. It was quite challenging, honestly, to kind of figure out how to shift that perspective because we had done so many hours

from the doctor's point of view. And also the challenge was how to serve our regulars and not take away from them while also highlighting nurses. So it was probably, I would say, our toughest episode of break

because we had to kind of flip the script and like think outside of the box. We hadn't done an episode from their perspective, but I'm just proud of the way that it came together and that, you know, we get to see the little in-between.

We get to see these moments of patient care, which is really one of the many things that nurses do so well. Valerie, thank you so much for talking through this episode. Thank you, guys. I'm inspired. I hope all the future college writers you talked to

are also inspired. Thank you. Thanks for taking the time. Thanks for creating this masterpiece. Oh my gosh, thank you.

Thanks for having me. I was like lost in listening to Valerie's thought process. Like I have experienced in writing scripts for news

But like hearing how Valerie wrote the characters

while maintaining the medical integrity

“but what this attention to emotional detail, incredible.”

Yeah. I mean, also, TV writing is super collaborative. And I liked how she was talking about breaking story across character, across all these remote medical cases,

and how so much stuff is reflected from the writing of Scott and John.

You mentioned her process, her thought process, and I can envision Valerie walking in circles in her writing space and with papers all over the ground

“and being like, how does Santos handle the situation?”

Or specifically, like, what is Langton going to do with Chargenar Stana?

And then it just comes this active brilliance

and we see it on camera. I think you're just writing like the Pelican Brief. Like, that's some sort of like Alan Pocula, like sort of conspiracy, like it's very tense and stressful.

“I'm just hoping that there's a generation of writers who are like inspired now.”

That's it for today's episode of The Pit Podcast. We'll be here every Thursday right after new episodes drop. And before we go, we want to hear from you, pit fans, so leave us a question, a comment, and maybe we'll address it on a future episode. You can watch us on HBO Max or listen wherever you get your podcasts.

The pit podcast is a production of HBO Max in collaboration with PRX. Executive producer PRX is Jostlen Gonzalez. Our managing producer is Courtney Florentine. Our editor is Lucy Perkins. Our production managers are Ebuda Choa and Tony Carlson. Our video producer and editor is Anthony Q. Artis with Assistant Editor Damon Durrell Henson.

This shows engineered by Tommy Bizarrean. Special thanks to Joe Carlino. The executive producer of HBO podcast is Michael Glugstatt. The senior producer is Allison Cohen Cerrococh, and the associate producer is Aaron Kelly.

Technical director is Insang Huang. I'm Alok Patel. And I'm Hunter Harris. We'll see you next week in the pit.