‘Industry’ S4 Finale: "Both, And" … What the Hell Just Happened?

No, not at all. I'm so sorry for my taste.

You're all right, right?

“Yes, exactly. I'm so sorry for the story. I just understand.”

I'm just a job or a job. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. - You're so sorry. - I'm sorry. With what? I'm sorry. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine.

- You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine.

- You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - You're a friend of the Margazine. - Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast. I'm Joanie Walker. - Hi, Joanie Walker. We are here to talk about a very disturbing episode of television.

I've come with a lot of smiles. I'm realizing my intro. - We're here to talk about the industry. Season finale, both and written and directed by Mickey Down and Conrad. We are going to start where we have the last couple of episodes.

I'm going to ask you, Joanie Walker, did you like this episode of television?

- It's never Rob Mehooney.

It's always Joanie Walker. - It can be Rob Mehooney. - Rob Mehooney. - Did you like this episode? - You know what? I'm so glad you came to me first because I don't know. - I feel very complicated about this finale.

“- I think I'm very interested in the bigger picture shifts”

that the show is taking towards entering into the political sphere and even more overt way setting up potentially next to the fifth and final season. I think tapping into some of the ideas within that world that industry seems interested in.

I'm thrilled about. Do I fully buy where all of our core characters ended up based on the development and roadmap of this season in particular? - I just don't know that I do. And so that leaves me in a weird place where

big picture I like a lot of what's happening, but the intimate personal stuff I really don't know what to make heads or tails of. - Are you talking about Jasmine? Specifically who has of course the most controversial ending here or is there anything else you had in mind when you're saying that?

- I think there's two things. The big one is definitely yes where, look, Jo, you've been on the Galen Maxwell front all season. - I don't like that phrase. - Do you not live in that space? Is that not how you're spending so much of your quality time these days?

- Yeah, it's true, it's true. - So like look, the writing was on the wall. We can't say we weren't warned as far as even some like the biographical similarities in terms of what's been happening with yes. I just feel like we were maybe like a hop skip

and a jump too many in terms of where we're to believe that she has gone over the last couple episodes morally in terms of the line she's willing to cross. We can get into that in greater detail. I also think Harper in terms of like Harper team player

felt like something I was told was happening in this episode and I don't know where I was supposed to see that over the back part of the season. - All right, Jo, anybody think?

Okay, well thank you for coming to me second.

“I strangely, you know, I think I had a tougher time”

with the middle of this season where some of these like big changes and more bringing in of politics and this fascist party and Nazis were like in the middle I was finding that a little strain and here at the end having not entirely trusted the process

for me, it's worked. I because I think for me it looped in a lot of the personal stuff with Yaz and Harper, which is of course the beating sad maybe dead heart of this show. - Yeah, where are we on female friendship after this

finale? - Right, I just have questions. - But we are at a place where I think what worked for me about the finale in the way that the end really brought it together is that Harper's endless desire to be singular and Yazman's endless desire to be a part of something

and how those are so things that could work for good and when I want to say that deck is stacked against you because anyone can take the other path but when maybe the bad workers in the world or the industries

How easy it is to do that in the wrong direction and I know that this turn for Yazman feels extreme. But in other ways it feels so easy and more than most of the personal beats in this show the way that it has been laid out

that Yazman wants to be necessary, wants to be a part of something and she's so bold as to have actually set it at this point. That made sense to me even though it was really tough to take.

“- Something that I think is really interesting.”

I really love this episode. Not that I had a great time watching it because I was hard to watch. But it felt really good, bold, audacious storytelling which is what we want from industry and it felt really emotional like it's plot driven but the last half hour

is harbouring Yaz and Paris. That's half the episode. For Jody and I wanted this sort of reconciliation between the two not like this but the fact that their relationship

to me feels like the most important part of the show

and so for the show to be like yep, it is. And we're going to spend some time on it and we'll talk today about Whitney's departure and what's going on with Henry and all that sort of ship like harbouring Yaz are what really matters here. And so to see this all coalesced to yes Rob have watched several

Glenn Maxwell's documentary in the last couple months. - You're a professional, you're doing your job. - Well to think about, so what's so interesting about Glenn Maxwell like the main connect with tissue between Yaz and Glenn Maxwell has more to do with her father than it does Jeffrey Epstein.

“What I think is really interesting what they've done here”

and we've talked about this a lot with like the wire cards like fraud as a thing that they were adapting is they've taken the beats of a story that they find interesting and then sort of twisted and warped in broad and other inspirations to create their own like special cocktails.

There isn't a Jeffrey Epstein figure in this story. Glenn Maxwell's father dies under suspicious circumstances on the yacht named for her, that's one to one. What Glenn Maxwell then does is runs to New York and finds a double daddy, a second daddy, right?

And she just sort of touched herself under his wing and then does whatever he wants and what he wants is for her to bring him young women. And that's her story is like, I took my daddy issues and then I found another daddy and I just did his bidding

elsewhere to like horrible horrifying ends. For Yaz to not really have a Jeffrey Epstein figure because she fled to Henry and the insulation of his money. But for her to like break out of that

and there's Whitties here at Henry's here

and there's all these like various like powerful men

of very degrees that she can sort of model her behavior off of, but like she's she's seeking that sort of protection inside of the system rather inside of a person. And I find that sort of like tweak on the story a really interesting choice.

Jody, do you have any thoughts about that?

“Well, I think Yazman is always seeking to be saved by power”

or some adjacency to power and she wants so badly to become her own daddy in this situation. You know, she wants to be the person in charge while rarely committing to the systems and while also being a woman, you know,

I mean, it's it's simply not going to happen the way that she would like for it to happen and so what she often chooses as an unfulfilling plan B is to be the least vulnerable person amongst vulnerable people and to put these more vulnerable women below her

and to be in charge of them and to quite literally pimp them out and that's not a win and you know, it's not going to feel like a win but she's going to paint it as a win and that is like the fundamental Yazman character

is like painting losses as wins and trying to convince herself that they are. That part of it felt a hundred percent believable to me by saying everything we know about Yaz and frankly, like narratively speaking,

I love the idea of Yaz going to such an extreme that Harper is desperately trying to real her back into some middle ground place and just failing dramatically like has just totally lost the ability to pull Yaz back to a place where they can both stand together.

I think that does a lot of interesting things in terms of where the show can go. I guess I'm just wondering like, when do we think Yaz was capable of this?

'Cause she's always been a character who is more morally pliable

that maybe anyone else on the show in a lot of ways in terms of what she's been willing to do but as you say, Jody like literally pimping out not just women but like a literal like binder

to exercise her version of power towards whatever end she sees fit. That part makes sense to me. I get that this is the end point they're trying to portray. I just wonder like when did we cross that Rubicon

“to where she is this version of this person who would do this thing?”

But I don't think it's like one line or one river to cross or anything like that. It's just like the little steps that you take along the way. And I think we're watching them since you know, Miguel Conrobron, the watch,

great conversation they had with personality and they say sort of her treatment of Venisha in season two or her dynamic with Rob from the very beginning which is all about sort of like manipulating someone who is more vulnerable that Rob is like

a more vulnerable soulful person and for to feel powerful herself. She likes to wield power if you'll so power less all the time.

And so I think that's always been there

and to your point about this feels like a moral bridge too far. I think it's a moral bridge too far for Harper, but not for Yasmin who is using the language of the, you know, she uses her father's own language

inside of this episode when she's talking about, you know, when Harper's like these are girls and they're like, she's like, I lost my body and I was 14. I became a woman I wanted someone

it's literally what her dad says to her about the nanny that he fucked. Yeah, I was so like that. Like literally using those words. And so I don't know,

“to me this doesn't feel like I hear what you're saying”

but I also, and there was like a little bit of time off screen between the, you know, the divorce and her showing up with a chignon in France. It's like that, but I just feel like

it doesn't seem like a huge leap to me. Jody, what do you think? Can I say something that maybe does not support the beauty and power of female friendship? Maybe Yasmin doesn't make this leap

if she doesn't meet Harper. And I think like more of the language that we hear her repeat in this episode is when she's, you know, saying actually it's totally fine to get

political donations from a shell company. She says, I mean, it's a great area. That's where the edges.

That's what you always say.

Yeah. But Yasmin, as opposed to Harper, is really not someone capable of living in the gray area. She's in the black baby.

Like she is very much someone who lives in in the black or white, the good or evil. And like at this point, we are seeing her commit to the evil.

I found that a super interesting twist for the finale of season four as we go into the last season of the show season five as we know now. I thought from the beginning

that we were barreling towards like the moral loss of Harper. Like what's going to happen to this young woman who is a shark doesn't know how to stop.

“And I think that like a lot of those things”

are still true about Harper and what we saw in season four is like some of the ways in which she's made those things sustainable for herself or not.

I don't trust that she's not going to go off the deep end now. But I did find it such a fascinating twist to have actually gone much further with Yasmin as a character

because she is less capable of dwelling in that gray.

And kind of always takes it

too far more than Harper because she doesn't have the instincts. This up to us called both and which is something speaking of people repeating words.

We hear Yasmin deploy this phrase in justifying her decisions to Harper and then Harper uses it in her interview with Patrick Braddenkeef who has a cameo inside of this episode.

He asked does it? Does being so unique the right whenever someone was so totally wrong feel like vindication? Does it also make you feel very alone?

She says both and basically like quoting Yasmin in a way that like is very chilling to me but also very emotionally

vulnerable to me. Rob, what do you think of this is like a title for this episode and a concept for both of these women here at the end of this season?

Oh, it's the most industry concept imaginable that we exist in all of these spaces simultaneously that we're going to twist

them in order to justify them as Jodi was talking about with Yas. I also think it applies to a lot of the political dealings in this episode as well.

This idea of aren't these things wrong and beyond the pale yes and all nations are doing it

each other simultaneously and so it's just like this fact of life that there is this level of compromise happening across all characters

across all nation states. That everyone is trying to like justify their way around. That I find to be like an incredibly fertile space

for industry to mind. As far as like the recurrence of like that specific line in this episode, I did find it chilling.

I don't know what to make of the whole Patrick Redden Keith like Coda in terms of the interview with Harper like I don't know.

as like a it felt like a very we think the show might end and we're not

positive we're going to be

renewed for a season five. Very sensitive to like the difficulties of writing under those circumstances. I don't know.

It just that whole exchange about being so terribly and uniquely right whenever when else is so wrong and

doesn't it make you feel so alone? It felt blunt in a way that I don't like industry when it's that blunt.

Like I prefer when it's a a slightly softer hand than that. And I felt like in the end with Harper that's where we ended up with a lot of this stuff.

It's like I'm being I'm being told via interview with Patrick Gregg and Keith who Harper is in a way that I kind of know but also I don't kind of don't

understand. Judy. Yeah. I also found that Coda a little confusing.

Mostly like the camera pivot to Aquabana. Like I didn't. When we had just had the scene between them that

was like is it worth

you know protecting yourself

at the cost of everything else? Yeah. Which I thought was an interesting line and an interesting answer.

Yes. Oh, the hard work. You know. And that we know that he's still there on that plane as she does

this interview. I I wondered what that meant. It's funny, Rob, that you say like that such an industry thing.

Like that was my exact thought was the the the repetition of the both and and of course what she is repeating that Yaz has

said originally is the world is not exploitation or opportunity. It's both and

that's the world. That's maturity. Oh, Yaz men. No. Sweetie.

Like and that's so industry like to just to just outright say the world is not exploitation or opportunity.

It's both and actually for some of us.

Those kinds of thoughts never

come up. Fun fact. No. Interesting for Yaz men. To use the words of

people who've exploited her to justify her actions. Yes. This is maturity. This is the intelligent

thing to do. People will just exploit you. So you might as well exploit them first. Or else, you know, you're going

to be the one who's vulnerable. I don't feel as much as essentially what she sets here, right? I don't have as much pain.

I guess my question and and I kind of like if the answer is no is like do you feel like Yaz men is the one in control of this

situation here at the end of the episode because like my not saying that like Hailey's the mastermind of everything but the way in which like

Hailey and these girls have hopped from Whitney's network which involves like an upper echelon of Russian, you know, machinations over to Yaz.

Like Yaz is a go between but she's not the architect of all of this. What they're doing right is the gathering information.

I'm all these incredibly powerful, you know, people from various nations who are in who are gathered together in this room

here. The way that Sebastian's eyes follow Hailey as she walks across the room. Like they're going to

they're going to get comprehend on him and on all these people in the room and is that not just then we've got so many

warnings about the Russians inside of this episode in Maxton's conversation with Henry in

everything that happens with Jenny is that not a trail to follow for a season five of just sort of like Yaz men's

a part of this but she's not in charge of sending control of anything. I don't know. What do you think?

I think that's the case. And I say that in part because not only is that just like a great narrative thread

to tug on but Hailey is a character. I feel like from the moment she left that elevator with Yaz has

kind of had nothing else interesting to do that the tail end of this season. Like she has been purely

an accessory to the rest of the story. And I hope for more of that character than that because I think there's a lot

that they could do with her. And I think Kyrn and ship has been regularly quite great on this show. And so if she has

more of a role to play as as we kind of like is hinting in this episode as you're talking about Joseph.

Who is really in control here? I don't really care to what extent she's doing anything with the game

tape but like who has what leverage on whom? Yeah. And how that's going to be played for Yaz.

I'm very eager to see and I hope that's the case. I hope this isn't as straightforward as Yaz seems to believe that

it is. Jody. I think when you create a world or a world view that makes you necessary.

And inevitably, then makes other people less than necessary. You're a fool to believe that

as they were fools to believe that you weren't necessary. Right. And we see Yaz

been convincing herself of these structures that in some way she doesn't believe in and it's kind of

interesting to hear her. Like you said repeating her father's language saying that like she became a woman

when she wanted to when she, you know, lost her virginity at 13 when a lot of what I was seeing in this episode

was like unfortunately Yaz

now. Like she's sort of, you know, she's sort of like facing the adult

world somewhat alone. Finally, not like looking for a man

to save her, but doing it herself. And I just distinctly get the feeling

that it's not going to work that she's not in control of the situation that there are

so many levels above her that too you know, actually

when you create these structures for yourself I'm either necessary or not necessary

and then you buy into that your necessary. It's like of course not. I mean,

we see this with Whitney.

Like he was really high up in this structure of how that any is completely

replaceable and like literally killable. You know,

the whole episode and we'll talk about when we get to Henry but is about knowing your place

and when you are so completely looking for your place, like that's the one thing

that Henry has is that he feels confident in his place in the world and that drives

him. And it's the only thing that like gives him

confidence or the ability to move through. And

I think we I think throughout all four seasons we've seen

not just so severely shaken in

Jasmine. Let's talk about Whitney and Henry

on the plane. So you know, the whole

like Dickie Greenwave Tom Riffley confrontation

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So you know, and/or a blizzard of the client to the show. It's better than nothing. And Uncle Alexander is so tall and so it works in a standing way. It is so funny to me in this show and in so many other shows about rich people doing bad things.

To listen to their disappointment around not getting the life. They thought like him stuttering over like, but what about, you know, the life we imagine the kids. And then to think about how he's been living his life. Like in that little fucked up head, you really thought that was still what was coming your way. Right.

Take it back to the harpsichord buddy. [laughter] I, so that the Yasmin harpersuff is to be the show.

And it is the most powerful stuff in this episode.

“But if I think if I were had, if I were to isolate like one scene that I've been thinking about the most after that,”

it's Lord Boston and Henry at lunch where his, his other uncle here is sort of telling him like, Hey man, careful what you're doing right because so this idea of Henry as someone who genuinely does want to do good. Like, this is something that Mickey and Connor have been saying in interviews is like, Henry actually does believe his own bullshit in terms of like, I want to democratize finance or democratize energy here.

And we are all the sort of stuff like that. So like, can I, with Jenny help sort of unravel this large Russian Kabbalist like that? And to be met with the harsh reality from his uncle, which, which was as, as every recap of the show has, has made plain an illusion to a real life thing that happened to property developers got young, who was pushed out of a window in much in much the same way.

That that, that Moss and describes, but did it, did you guys, like, Moss and was also threatening him? Like, oh, like, I didn't even know that. Yeah. I'm, like, because if anyone has called for bat on them, it's, it's Moss and for sure, right? Yeah.

And so like, I feel like, to me, laced into that conversation, I could be reading it correctly, but it felt like this is a thing that happens to be careful, but also, I will look the other way. If push comes to shove, you're the one getting shoves, not me.

Well, I think, you know, we hear Henry in this episode giving reminders to Whitney to, to know your place.

And you would be mistaken not to, Henry himself also needs those reminders from his elders from time to time. Your place, your place as a, sir as a Lord is not to be a disruptor. You know, it is to literally maintain the status quo, even when the status quo is evil, which it is. And we hear auto in this conversation talk, you know, he built his Russian shopping mall. He, he made those inroads. And those inroads are there. And they will lead back to something that isn't good for the threat. I couldn't tell how direct it was supposed to be, but I did feel the whisper of a threat.

And I also really loved the very small beat in that conversation where it's like, the sticks could not be higher for Henry. You know, he is potentially going to prison. He is potentially being murdered. Like, it could be anything he was recently offered a fake beard. And, and auto is like, "Did I ever tell you about my old pal, Clovis Wodenhouse?" And, and Henry's like, "No." You know, like, you stop at this mirror. Yeah.

“Like, you still have to listen to the stories, because that's how you uphold the legacy.”

You know, you listen to what your uncle's did before you. And then that's what you do. And look at what he did.

The institution doesn't suffer, Jodie.

And I don't even know. The institution of English aristocracy. Yeah, right. Part of the reason I'm compelled to agree with you, Joe, that this was, what, how explicit the threat is, I think we can try to figure out over time when the show comes back. He seems very easy with this whole idea.

Anyway, when you think about Whitney, Whitney was sweating bullets for weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks and weeks. And here's auto, just being like, "So you might get dangled off a balcony, you might get dropped to your death. Oh, by the way, can I get my wine topped off over here?" And like, the score shift from like, gravely serious to we're just having fun at lunch. I think it's just like one of the funniest parts of this episode.

So he is way too comfortable with whatever is happening.

And Henry, we should say, waiting into counterintelligence, like bumbling his way through.

I mean, it's just not going to go well, so someone needed to warn him off it. I absolutely loved the way we leave. Henry and his two uncles here at the end of the episode.

“In the fishing boat, the Gilbert and Sullivan back on the score, right?”

He is an English man when she talked about a couple times a season, but the way that he is like, really this fishing and seems like, you know, on back on his medication, and I'm probing on your meds, so stand your meds. But the way that he's just like seems so convinced that he's the one really the fishing when his two uncles are like holding him down and up and like, you know,

you're like in the embrace of the family, but also being restrained by the family and you're, you're a gentleman of leisure doing your leisurely activities, but also your uncles are doing all the work for you, and it was just like, it was just like the perfect, like, helpless, coddled space. So, Henry and I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see Henry.

Like, I love Ken Harrington in this role, but like, this is kind of where I want to leave. Henry, I don't need him like really much in the mix next season. What do you think, Jodie? Yeah, it felt like the right flows to me because it's kind of like within this season, and especially this episode, we see him grappling with his place

“and is there something different for him to do here?”

Can he be more, can the world need him? And it seems like he settles pretty firmly in to know, and not since Lindsey low hand has there been such an iconic ankle monitor moment that not zoom in on that stupid little boat in a pond probably on their property or the fish that somebody put there.

You know, it's so embarrassing sort of, and that I do think is the way that it is a perfect ending, I think, for that character that had all of the opportunity to grow and took none of it. And it did a lot of bad and ended up exactly where he started. It's fascinating to me that like, Lord Norton is like, so, so such seemingly so central to whatever is going to go forward and that I'm like,

Henry, take her leave. Okay. I said that because seeing a lot of Alexander is a character that I am like, where does he stand? You know, I mean, he's a girl dad.

We've seen him like within this show on his walks as long walks of the girl. He has this like paternal energy and he's had these times where it seems like he's tried to save Henry or save you as from themselves and then like in this conversation in this conversation with Sebastian. He almost like he he seems like morally upstanding when you compare it to this neo-nazi. Yeah.

Yeah. The barren house. He's cleared it. Yeah. But you and he is like a rare case of an established person.

And so like what does that mean for his involvement in this sort of new political class?

Like will he go lower?

“Will he actually be someone who like has a moral backbone?”

Also his continued relationship to Yasmin, who I guess now runs his comms? I mean, she's going to make it on the Forbes 30 under 30 for these, you know, this movement through the comms game. Oh, she's a connector for sure. And also her criminal activity. Oh, yeah.

That's going to get her on many a list. Yeah. I love the idea of Alexander as that stated for the establishment more so than Henry going forward.

Just because Henry is not about this life and up to these challenges in terms of, you know,

like if someone is going to stand up to Sebastian Stavanovitch, it's not going to be Henry. And I like that we see a moment from Jennifer Beffin in this episode, like getting to make her speech through some applause, getting to kind of defend herself and these like very projected constructed ideals. In a lot of ways based on the reality of what happened.

But she's a character I'm already wondering, like, how up for this fight is she going to be in terms of what the future politics of industry. Yeah, fascinating. I will say in terms of the way in which industry has ended these last two seasons when they weren't,

“sure they were going to get another season, you know?”

I'm not looking to an ending where Sebastian and Yas get their come up in. It's like, I don't know that this is a show or a moral universe. Really, they're showing us our own universe. And like, Bill and Maxwell isn't really suffering, you know, for her crimes that much.

And nor is anyone who's been out on the Epstein list. So like, I don't know. I don't, I don't think this show is going to. I was like romantically rooting for Harper and Yas of a reconciliation, not like this guy. It's not like this, but like I was rooting for it.

But now I'm just sort of like, I don't, I don't, I guess the best. I feel like I can hope for as Harper taking that sort of Gus Rob like train out of this entire universe and heading off to the green pastures that are still a convalley. I don't know.

What do you think, Johnny? My feeling in seeing Yasman join forces with Sebastian is kind of like a further step into what she hoped for with Henry, like not romantically necessarily. But we saw with Henry that even though he's dead as wrong, he is someone who believes that he that he wants the good things that he wants.

You know, like he is someone who sort of has good intentions. And for Yasman, who is this person who really does seem to like live in the black and white, the good and evil, she is now finding herself in the midst of people who actually fully believe in the evil things that they think. Like she is not someone who believes in the things that she thinks.

You know, she is not a convicted person.

And she's always sort of like she might be.

I think that's the interesting thing is like, I mean, off wall, but interesting is she is always attaching herself to people who have conviction, whether it's Harper or Henry or Sebastian. And this like what you see in the line where he is where she's sort of teasing about her divorce. And he says he doesn't believe in divorce.

And she's kind of like, oh, what do you think it's in a front to God? And he's like, yes, I think it's in a front to God. I think she is sort of non sexually aroused by that kind of conviction. And like what might my life be like if I thought things so intensely. And she's over now, Jodie.

Yeah, and she's super and for fun. Yeah, she's just like, clearly.

“And I think that's the way that Eric is used in this episode, right?”

We get both Harper trying to call him when Stern no longer tau. Yeah, make their payday. And then we get the, yeah, has been using the footage of him to sort of make score some points. On Harper here, or make her point about the way in which the world works. What do you think of sort of his ghost haunting this episode?

I mean, it makes sense to tie up some of these loose ends, especially rather than have them just hang over the future of the show. Like, I think one of the worst things for industry would be for people to just be speculating will Harper ever see the tape or figure out the truth about Eric.

Do I believe that yes, even as somebody who is willing to tell herself anything to justify her own behavior would play this tape as she is literally pimping out the same underage girl in the very room in which it's happening.

“While still claiming to be the necessary and good person, like, I think that was part of what I bumped on.”

And so like, I get them mechanism, but I did not get.

Yeah, this is the story that she's spending here. A that Eric knew she was underage, which she didn't, the creators have confirmed that Eric didn't, right? So like, yes, she is that, which is either something that she's been lied to about or she is lying to Harper about. And then the sort of says that she's not under a girl's lie about the race, she's not underage. But again, is that something that she's been lied to about is it true or is it, you know, I'm unclear on where the lie is inside of all of that.

I don't know that it matters at the end of the day because, yes, it's just like constructed a web where she can justify anything.

And any decision she makes and I decision that anyone else makes is like this sort of warped form of a female empowerment.

So it's just, I know, Jodi, I really agree. This is a badly bad place you've ever made and I really, really painful. Yeah, what do you think, Jodi? Oh, yeah, I mean, I guess my, my, my quite literal take was that either what Jasmine believes or what she is saying. Is that dolly, right, is the little cousin is a young woman who acts like she is underage.

But she is, right, not so that like pretend to be guilty. So that guys who want to be with a 15 year old can feel like they're with a 15 year old.

“And it's telling Harper that Eric believed her to be underage or sort of, yes, it was complicit in her acting like she was underage or something, which I think the show says pretty well in the.”

In the, you know, reveal of the video to Eric when he gets it as email that he seems pretty shocked about that. So I didn't, but yeah, that I mean, the, the continued sort of details around this character that is, you know, in either in no matter what the. What conclusions we draw could I think could seemingly be called a girl like could conceivably be called a very young woman no matter what. Jasmine knows what she's tied up in, you know, like she, she knows that these girls could be lying to her about their age.

She knows that these dudes whose laps they're sitting on don't give a shit about their age or do in the wrong way. And also like, yeah, okay, a party does need gender balance, but when all the women are sitting on laps, it actually takes away a lot of that balance. And it's actually like not super fun when all of the women are sitting on bins laps and part of your hotest take opportunity, and I applaud you for your. Just a glass of laps in party, I love to go to walk into a living room and see every woman on a lap.

Yeah, but it's just the best I guess is the lap party, I guess. On the dolly front, I did want to note, so what I think is interesting about the way that Eric sees in this episode. Yeah, this has been a season of ghost dads who've got ghost dads haunting all over the place. We get this footage of Eric in this episode and then we get the recording of Charles, you know, that yeah, it's place for herself. Doing it again in the episode.

So like these digital remnants of these of these father figures inside here, and then like I was reminded of. And I promise I wouldn't bring it up, but it's been many episodes since I have, but Roman Roy playing this like. I'm a five video of Logan Roy after his death over and over again, it's talking about how Roman Roy has like a micro penis, like it's this like weirdly edited like video footage of his father, but he watches it over and over again. So obviously like that's that's something I think about, but also.

What Charles says in the voice about a couple things, first of all, this idea that like bring a friend of yours, so she brought Harper into like this thing that she knows.

We're her father, like, you know, likes to parade young women around either for his own, you know, disgusting joy or the men that he entertains, et cetera.

“He like he originated or the lap part well, he did not originally lap party, but anyway, like that's that's what she's invited.”

I mean, that's what she's invited Harper to, you know, in the previous season, and then also he calls Yasmina, right, which he has before, but that's his like diminutive for her. And he calls her, light of my life, right, and this is the opening of the novel Lolaita, right, Lolaita, light of my life, fire my lines, my sin, my soul. And then further down on that paragraph about Lolaita, where he talks about all her different names, he says she was dolly at school, Dolores on the dotted lines, this idea of like the dolly character that we've seen this season is part of this like.

A story of pedophilia, but I just, I was so ill watching, yeah, listen to that recording over and over again, joddy, but it did, did you think yeah, it's awful, the it's a it's so horror movie, you know, to watch her and it reminds me of of last season when the doors closed behind her when the the young woman on the boat that she saw having sex with her.

“Father that she then hires, then fires, it's a lot of, you know, sit down shut the door, like it's a lot of closing doors and when she tells.”

Now this young woman that she is bringing to the lap party to close the door behind her so she can have a moment so she can listen to these voicemails from her father over and over.

I love what seemed to me to be a sort of audio shift of like hearing listening to the voicemail and then seeming to hear it sort of rattle around in her head. Like there there was this shift in the audio as she lays down on the carpet and it felt like she was like. Conditioning herself to no longer heat her father, but like fulfill his role in the world. And that's really awful. That was really that was really bad. Yeah, it felt like an extension of the conversations he's having with Harper about like how the only people who couldn't survive or people who've been hardened by their experience.

“And so it's like to me, she's very much playing that in that conditioning capacity you're talking about Jodie of like.”

I have to remind myself of how horrible the world is in order to play a part in it whatsoever. It's horrendous to watch. Like this was I thought the most effective piece of the episode by far just like watching this segment of it on screen and trying to live with the realities of it. Also think like weird enough for Yaz's journey so much of the season has been her building up to being in a position to tell Haley when she closes the door for her. Oh, you can have the day off and not giving the like, oh, you can't tell me that.

Not your boss. Yeah, she finally is her boss. She is daddy.

Yeah, I'd be a dinner at eight and air masses expecting you. Exactly. And so like she is getting a version of a thing that she wants. And this is the cost for it is that in order to gear herself up mentally to participate in this. She's got a listen to this tape on repeat apparently. The way that she's restiled herself as a honey right like like her father's name. In the gullan Maxwell documentary that I watched there is this like really disturbing interview that she gave on a park bench in central park.

We're a place for an interview in 1992, but anyway, she's talking about her father. And the interviewer is like, hey, you know, there's so much skin. Your father died. There's so much skin around your name. You've moved to New York. You've reinvented yourself. Did you think about changing your name to like get away from the Maxwell name? And she was like, no, I love my name. I was bored with my name. I'm proud of my name. I'll have it forever. And so the way that he has him is like leaning away from Lady Muck and back into not even the double barrel version of her name, but just to not need just her father's name.

Like is very disturbing. Also, I really love his not the word admire the way that this season is book ended by this dinner party that she throws with like Jenny at the beginning of the season.

“And then this Sebastian dinner party at the end of the season. And again, this is like a very Glenn Maxwell coded, but also has always just been as is like, I think Jenny brought this up really beautifully.”

Early this season connector people like a throw root of events and a connector people.

But that line that she has an episode two when she's like, are you with Henry and she's like, like, don't be dumb. I've never voted like the fact that she went for like,

labor earnest labor Jenny to like, you know, neo-nazzi said inside of this the space of a season because it does not matter what they believe. She does not give a shit what they believe. Their power is what she craves and the proximity to power and the cover it can give her. Which again, and this is actually just genuinely the last time I'll say it reminded me of like Roman Roy's whole storyline with Justin Kirkstker at the end of succession, right? And he's just sort of like cozying up to Naziism because like for Roman it's like it's fun and it's chaotic and it's this whole other thing.

But like because he doesn't have to think about and he doesn't care to think about the actual consequences of what this kind of ideologies rise to power could mean for people in the world because he's insulated from actual repercussions. Is very much what he has is dealing with here because she like it doesn't matter like this is this is she's spouting the party line she's ahead of comms here like, but at the end of the day she's not thinking about the impact it will have down to Not really processing what it would mean to put Harper next to literal Nazis at the dinner table and her reaction that where she was just sort of like a little bit sorry, but a little bit not at the same time a little bit embarrassed.

That really did the table setting, so like she was more like I didn't think about the fact that you're like a black woman here in this context or or what that meant.

“And I guess my bigger question for you, Jodi is like why do you think Yaz invited Harper to this party this event this dinner?”

Well, it was interesting that you noted that that Yasmin when we hear the her father's voice mel that like he's like bring a friend to the boat and she brings Harper because she's not allowed to bring men, but that's about as close to a man as she can get in terms of like social not like how she behaves socially Harper's not going to sit on a lap. You know, like I think that that was some form of of bringing protection and I think in that way she also she desperately wants Harper to see her succeed.

And she sees what she's doing now as succeeding, you know, she's comes for a fascist and working for Uncle Alexander and she's like this is success. Look at me, I finally have power, see this power, your powerful, too, and that's why I say like I don't love this, I don't love this conclusion, but there is a part of me that wonders like would Yasmin have ever gone to these links if she hadn't met Harper a woman who is so powerful and who doesn't care about structures and who moves her way through the world without class and standing.

I think that is driven Yasmin to want to be more successful to want more out of the world and we've watched her feel time and time again, but now she feels like she's gotten somewhere.

I don't think she thinks Harper's going to donate to this, but I think she wants Harper to see her there, which is yet another, you know, classic. Yeah, it's like yet another mistake who didn't think this all the way through, you sat her next to Nazis, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't think it even occurred and Jody, I'm so bought in all what you're saying as far as like Harper is a motivating factor for Yasin so many different ways and I think some of that is like even Yasin aspirations here.

“Feel necessary, right, like she wants you feel important, I think more than she wants to be important and so in a world where she and Harper never meet.”

I think she flames out of peer point much like she did in the Harper reality, but after that, like who's to say in what direction she would spin off or to what ends or whether she'd be somebody who is chasing after something versus just somebody who is comfortably social because she, like she had those avenues available to her and I think part of what makes her as competitive as she is within the world of industry. He's like seeing Harper go after something so whole so wholeheartedly over and over and over and pursue it so doggedly.

It brings out something in Yasin but like I think they bring out a lot of the worst qualities in each other a lot of the time frankly, but I'm also not qualified to speak on this as we've discovered time and time again.

But it does make me wonder on the other side of it is like this is when we finally see Harper drawing the line with Yasin.

She's like oh whoa shit no like you out on underage what like what's going on and what does that create in Yasin in Harper moving into the next season like is she going to see it.

“I'm fascinated by this idea of like does Yasin want someone to stop her here or does she you know because she's offered the hand right so like Harper offers it to her like in bringing someone who can see you so well and know you so well.”

I feel like oftentimes people when they're in like it's self destructive spiral they bring that person in because they want someone to tell them known to tell them to stop. But Harper does that in Yasin does not take the profit hand at least in in the way in in the more meaningful way that that Harper is offering in here I think that's interesting and and then to like wrap up to think about season five I just want to read you a couple quotes that. Conrad gave to this this great GQ interview that they did in talking about season five. They said I feel like the show can't get any smaller because a smaller thing would be a backwards thing

So it feels like if anything which needs to grow until it tumbles under its own weight And then they said talking about Harper and yes by the time they get to the end of season five We want the image what they become in season five to be so stark versus season one and as they ascend and descend and go deeper into the rabbit hole Whatever they're chasing Jasmine and Harper can provide a kind of baseline litmus test for each other Where are we who are we because they know each other because they've been within the same system

So in a way there's a kind of weird spiritual checking in that they're kind of bound to do because they're each others Sort of perverted mirror So thinking about that thinking about the Yeah as Harper perverted mirror thinking about the like clearly a deeper into the political realm that that the show Seems to want to go seeding Edward Holdcroft's character Sebastian into like what we all feel like we agree is probably gonna be like a main character in the final season

Robmoving I won a version of all we got this season and we saw that industry can do so well

Which is introduce us to whole new corners and whole new characters that were not as familiar with and make them feel like they're a part of the world Of the show because all of the shit is connected on like a deep and fundamental level and so yeah We're seeding characters here, but I'm sure we're gonna get entirely new political operators or Russian operatives or kind of whoever it is

“That we end up meeting in season five and the that is why I love this show and I think part of”

Part of some of the things that I'm bumping on in this finale in this season are outgrowth of the ambition of what industry is trying to be like It is trying to eat is a show that loves to reinvent itself that it grows so much so fast and Demands transformation and like not every transformation is gonna work for every single viewer and there's something in this season It didn't work for me, but I love what it reaches for and I I'm in particular

Charmed by the idea of a show that never

Resonance laurels that never says like oh, we can just go back to the formula that wants that comparison point for yes and Harper of Look how dramatically different these people are from when you met them and Lord knows where they're gonna be at the end of season five and that that is what I love about industry Toady Yeah, I think I just want to see those expansions of the world and those bringing in of like new industries and new

Infrastructures that create this sort of like shadowy existence of some of these characters I just want them to make sense for Harper and yes and I because these are these are are these are our people and I can't believe how much I've thought about America's next stop model while watching this season But it came up again this is this this episode when Harper You know comes back from the horrible party and and tell squad and I feel like all the people

I thought were constants in my life have all become something that I didn't know they were or disappeared all together And we've talked about this sort of like that that the original industry poster is like one of those A&TM graphics where the people filter out

“And I think what I thought of is those people were dying or moving, but they're kind of people dropping out of Harper's life”

As she sort of really more stays the path of Finance, you know like she really has not gone out into these other worlds and I don't necessarily want her to but I think in Yasmin especially by the end of this season We have really seen it's made sense to bring in these other worlds because of how they have affected Yasmin's character And even like within this season we saw her go from like looking around and being horrified by the

Hitler art in the room she was staying in to getting on board with Sebastian this politician to literally Seating Harper next Nazis like we we've seen these things make sense I want to see them make sense for Harper because I think while they haven't

Harper's ultimately taken a back seat, you know like shit shit. She's been a bit of an MPC

And and I think we are past the point of that being able to Be her character of like the sort of deadness being able to be her character. It's like we got a lean in her out I thought it was interesting that Kavanaugh and like when I Talking about like break up seeds or whatever him coming in and being like I kiss someone I don't feel bad about it blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, she's like

Fierling out from the actual heartbreak of Yasmin and she's like I don't really care about He's like this is a big let's have a who are we to be each other conversation well like Nomakit they buys like playing in her head about about Yasmin in the background But yeah, I think Harper being you know

“It making Conrad described her as sort of like a final girl at a horror movie inside of this episode right when she finds herself in his dinner table and so I think her”

Really being the center of the final season feels really important to me as well Like she took like a real heart step back in season three and she was just like More present this season, but I would just like her to be recenteralized entirely In the final season yeah last madman calm. I'm gonna make as as we wrap up here We get we get sweeping in Kavanaugh and and Harper

Clearly a season five finale madman calm when they're in the empty like office space They keep out their future there But when then we also get this like the stewardess come in the same episode that season five finale madman This woman comes up to Don Drake at the bar and she's like are you alone? Which is like how the episode ends when we get this like you know, are we done sort of moment here at the end of the episode?

Which also made me think Rob don't take your head, which also made me think did we have Remind of me of that episode of Angel when like Doyle's leaving his like is that it? Am I done? So I was thinking about angel, but I was thinking about madman And I I agree that it's very on the nose like it's a very it's tough

Take for the motions Rob

“Problem it was for me. Oh, or I didn't mind it. I didn't mind it is very like walking around the the deserted floor of pure point”

At the end of season three. This is like how they like that season. It's true. I was into it

All right, we are pretty much out of time, Jenny. I mean the last things you want to say about the season television I can't believe this is the end It it It crused by on a very on a very bumpy ship on a very bumpy cruise

This this went so quickly and as always at the end of an industry season

I'm just sad to not be talking about it anymore. It's like for any of its faults It's so good to have a show that you just really want to talk about you know like that requires the further conversation

“And I think that I think that season four really did that and”

You know, I don't want to hit the like are you finished? Are you done here for Rob? But it's nice to know it really is I like going into season five like knowing that's the end You know, I like I can't wait. I can't wait. I can't wait to see what I'm trying to do I love when people know that they're done with the show and they just throw everything at the wall

“Rob anything else you want to say about it in the street before we go”

Just echo jodys thoughts. I mean an incredibly fun season to talk about ups and downs and jodys Thank you for sharing your beat I know we're encroaching on yours Thanks, you know, it's so it's so great to be the one in the power position here and to answer and time you guys I love sharing it with you. I loved I love this show

Please please have me back. I'll I'll I'll come back for anything. Oh, no have us best I'm very Yasmin in that way

We finally come we finally figured it out. I am the Yasmin of this body

Is this the episode where you wanted to clear that that's it? I take it back. I take it back Thanks to Devon Ronaldo for work. There work on this entire season of the podcast and Rob and I will be back to talk about the pit And jodys hopefully will see you soon and bye [BLANK_AUDIO]