‘Industry’ S4E7: Tainted Love

No, not at all. How do you do that with the glass of wine? Wow, that's what it is. Yes, exactly. How do you do that with the glass of wine?

Because the glass of wine has a lot of life. You can't do it with the glass of wine. No, no, I don't feel like a glass of wine. The glass of wine is made of wine. How do you do that with the glass of wine?

Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast. Speed, I'm Jim Robinson. I'm Rob McCone. I'm Jodi Walker. And we're all recording from home today, here on this episode of Industry Very Homey.

Yeah, absolutely. Just a cozy. Just a cozy little episode. Didn't all make me feel like I had the cocaine blues or anything at all. It's just a completely nice episode of television, written and directed by Mickey

Down and Conrad. Okay, this is the panel to the episode of the season of Industry sad. Our little trio is about to come to an end. What? You got to be like, yeah.

Show. This is for an Harper and Yazari United, everything's fine, Harper and Yazari United, but Whitney's in the wind and I don't know what's going to happen next. So before we get into everything we want to get into today, I just want to start with

“a like toppling question, Jodi Walker, did you like this episode of Industry?”

You're always hit.

You're always hit me with the toppling show.

Yeah, a hard curveball for you. Yeah, I loved it. It was awful. And I loved it. I will say, I don't know what it, I have such an emotional relationship with the

show and like right at the top, it was so intense that it was like taking me a minute to get into it. It felt like getting into a fight and like I didn't quite have it in me yet, you know, like I had to get my dukes up and I had to get ready and it took me a second energetically. And then it was just everything this season's been doing.

It was government, it was finance, it was crime, it was espionage, it was hidden phones. It was Whitney and Henry doing their ever-present company, each other up. I loved it. Jodi, how many fights have you been it? How active has, have those dukes been?

I can fight Rob. I'm sure you. I have zero doubt. 100% Jodi and fight. I was the nine.

As the not-yes of this podcast, I can fight. From Honey, journalist extraordinaire, how'd you feel about this episode of the way that journalism was portrayed inside of it?

Big questions for one, never go into a room, have a whole last meeting.

And then say, all of that was off the record. Not how it works. Not how it works. Just don't do that. Media training 101.

Seriously. I did think this episode was a lot. Like, there are always things to recommend about every industry episode. I thought the mellow drama of this one got like a smidge thick for me at times. And I don't know why characters would just randomly start talking like they were in a great

American novel, but they sure did all the time throughout this episode. What did you think was the month? Because I actually thought this was like less sort of therapy speechified in some of our previous episodes of this season.

“So what was like the worst offender in that regard for you?”

I don't even think it was the therapy speak. I think it was just like, these very overwrought like Wilhelmina getting into this big deal about snake oil salesmen and sermon sounding the same. It's like, I'm all forced stylized dialogue. I know industry dips into this stuff more successfully.

Sometimes in others, but even like the parallel Harper Yaz stuff during our final like bar scene about being a breathing example of wanting to be more and/or less. Oh, do you mean when I cry? I'm not saying it's not effective. I don't have any comments on female friendship at this time.

I actually do. I have a apologies to make to both of you to Harper and to Yaz. I think it's beautiful and it's forced me to reconsider my own priorities in life. It's a way that I now am orienting everything I do to someday get to a point where I can have a drink with a friend, soundtracked by India, celebrating the fact that we kind

of quietly cheer for each other's downfall. Here's the thing, Robin. And you and I talked about this a little bit a little bit off pod last week, where I was asking you like if you had any toxic like friendships or relationships in your life and you looked in the eye and you said, not really.

And here's the thing, Rob.

“I think you just need to be too well adjusted for her.”

I think you're smart. Don't think that way. That's a secure attachment. Yeah. To hold them and well adjusted for to.

Here's here's, here's how I wanted to relate to Rob. If it's not something you've experienced in your actual, uh, wholesome life, then, uh, perhaps can you think of it in terms of like, a void crowd or rail ad

Oh, sure. Together, sort of, front of me dynamic. Is that working for you? It's of course working for me.

“I understand toxic relationships and all of their various forms as portrayed”

to me by media. I just thought, I don't know. I thought the differences between these two at this point in time might be a little to irreconcilable. And that is clearly not the case.

Like when when push came to shove, Harper was he has his like a scape raft.

And that's a powerful thing that's not lost on me.

Well, I mean, I, I, I, I, I'm with your original point that, uh, this was very much an episode about language. Like, I, I, I liked that it times it made the point that actually language is just as powerful as money and is actually the thing that speaks in a show about narrative and how we use it and that in the final analysis, it really does come

down to how we frame things. Um, and you know, there were the sum of the sort of overrought lines. Of course, when Willamena said, um, and sermons and snake oil kind of sound the same, I said, I've been saying this in not as beautiful of a way.

Thank you. But I've got the really simple moments of language worked really well. Like when Henry's like, oh, do you mean fake? Or when, yes, is like, um, or when Jenny is like, oh, lies. And, you know, yes, is like, it's see, you get what you take.

I, I liked those moments in the episode a lot. Rob, if you ever want to wound someone deeply, will you send them a large bouquet of red roses and say, you Tory? Uh, they're hard to them. Is that a good meaning?

I mean, it is getting someone right where they live. There's no doubt.

“And I guess how do we feel about that version of female friendship?”

Or at least it's like a protege and mentor kind of thing slightly different. But it's like, the two, the two women in this episode who see everything on the

board is transactional basically at all times kind of win the day.

And the two women who at least seem like at times to engage in things in somewhat good faith, at least the kinds that politics will allow, um, one ended up with her, you know, a horse head and her bed and the other one with a bouquet of roses and betrayal. So I, I don't know what to make of all of that. Oh, now you're talking about mentorship and corporate America and I guess government.

So that's actually a whole different thing. Oh, you're right. Um, all right, before we get into, I mean, we already got fairly deep here. But I just want to do some rapid fire well, actually, is that we got from listeners really quickly. From owning someone wants to send a well actually our way.

Where can they send it? They can first sure send it to [email protected]. Or if that's too difficult for you or you're on a work computer. Prestige TV, it's Spotify.com. We'll also do just fun.

So a couple of musical notes.

“The Gilbert and Sullivan that we heard Henry singing in the shower last week is of course.”

Something that Charles Anani also sang on his yacht right before he went overboard. So this is another haunting connection for Yasmin between her father and her husband. He was certainly doing a Charles Anani impression inside of this episode. He was yelling in our face until he was shooting a matter. So musically connected as well.

The witty Houston connection, which I'm like, I'm a fan of our discussion about whether or not our witty named himself after Whitty Houston. But some folks wanted to point out also that Patrick Bateman and American Psycho has a whole speech about Whitty Houston, which is just like something we should definitely mention. Because given that Whitney's last name in this show is a name plucked from American Psycho,

all American Psycho connections are on the table year. There's that. We talked about Tom Ripley without mentioning that Maxim and Gallo plays the aforementioned Whitty, his father, Anthony and Gallo directed the talent to Mr. Ripley. That could have been something we wouldn't have mentioned, but we did it.

It could have been. And last but not least on the well actually his friend. Nobody will actually me on this, but I'm going to well actually myself. Why? A horribly mispronounced.

The lead actress of this show's name. Jodie, like gently said it correctly later in the episode. I think I said, my halo.

But it's my hall is the name of course of the incredible former police harbour.

And I'm just going to well actually myself on that one. So those are all of our well actually this is episode. And we didn't get anything else sort of like really that I want to tell you then too. What are you going to say, Rob? I'm just proud of you, Joe.

I mean, it's really you and that one guy on the tenderboard are the only people who are pro accountability in either of these spaces. So I wish to loot you. I'll loan the consenting voice. Joey and Robin said.

All right. So let's start with jazz and Henry and the Charles trauma that haunts this conversation that they have. Jodie, what did you think of this opener? Oh, I, well, okay. I mean, this is what I'm said.

This is what I'm saying. It was like getting in a fight. It was like being in this fight. And it was tough to come straight into all of this yelling. And it feels intentional for that to be difficult and seeing.

I was going to say this marriage torn a thunder.

But this kind of reversal of, you know, at the Henry's birthday episode, when Yasmin is yelling

“at Henry and he flinch his back and you wonder like, what have I missed?”

What's been happening in this relationship. And then in this episode, when, I mean, he's already yelling in her face and he does the final hit. And she flinch his back. Such like an excellent natural reaction. And it, and in that moment, you wonder not about that reaction, but about what comes next.

But then she's able to then Yasmin gets on board. Of course you're right. Just she believe him is she, you know, right? No. Join that thing.

Yeah. That's soothing, coping. I'll say whatever it takes to get this person to calm down. So I can get out of this conversation. We get the like, um, Rob, I don't know if either you or Stephen Ford wants to weigh in

on the fact that like, uh, Henry sort of snuggled up to her bosom. Oh, yeah. Later in the episode, Whits, like, why are you still in your mother's teeth? Sort of. Yeah.

Always infuriating. Yeah. He's in her lap. But he passes out content that someone will take care of this for him. And she stays up all night.

Very out what she's going to do next. I, I love Henry's absolute meltdown in this scene where he's talking about the way and which the world needs to reflect his goodness back to him, the way in which this idea that he's been, like, so, um, insulated from consequences in his life, which is something that Yasmin says later to Northern.

But like, that, like, basic consequences feel like wild injustice is doing.

Like, this is just someone who has never had to face any consequences in life.

“And then all of a sudden he's like, what is, what is this?”

Actual accountability. Uh, Robby, any thoughts or feelings about this? Do you want to mention? I mean, it's a very effective scene in that way. Like, it is, yeah.

It's hard not to put yourself, like, squarely in Yasin's perspective here. Just because Henry flies out the real so fast. And he's the one who ultimately walks straight into Whitney's arms, who triple leverage their finances to rely basically entirely on tender. And once things go to shit, like, he can only think of himself.

Like, he's, is really about, like, his own personal legacy. How dare Yasin even contemplate what this would mean for her, both as an employee of this company and a prominent position. And also the person buried to Henry, how this would affect her life. Uh, I find it really effective.

I also think overall, like, one of my favorite things about this episode is the way this works as the origin point for the sort of, like, parallel tracks that they're on all episode, right? Yas is a woman of action and her plan is, like, flawed, but she has a plan and is proactive and is going after it.

“Henry just kind of, like, sort of doubts Whitney,”

but also just kind of follows in his coat tails on yet another plan. He's, like, way too credulous about and in doing so. Believe in us, he said, believe in us one last time. One last time. I mean, really, I know notes whatsoever.

I got who tells the truth, every, every chance he gets. But the fact that these two are just like, not in communication, even down to the fact that when Yas tenders her own resignation, if you'll pardon it, uh, doesn't, doesn't bother to tell Henry about the fact that that's coming whatsoever.

I mean, at the point at which you find yourself screaming, I am a good person. Yes. One inch from your wife's face. It might be a sign that true.

You're doing the right thing. You're doing the right thing. You're in a good place. Um, and just on the wardrobe front, the fact that they had him in that demeaning tender t-shirt for the entire conversation was just perfect.

Well, on that line, though, the I am a good person and the world shall tell that back to me. Otherwise, what am I doing here? It's just like an amazing bit of obliviousness and self-awareness rolled up into one that, like, in a way,

I honestly find like, pretty admirable. I don't know how you get to that exact place, but really only Henry can do it. We'll get there if you can. So work him.

Yes. Because his whole thing is he has enough self-awareness to know that he should be good. Like, that this is the thing we should aim for. And there aren't many characters like that in industry.

Like, we really do not see Yaz or Harper aiming for that. When they are aiming for moral, they are simply doing something with their eyes so that other people will believe that they are moral or empathetic. Henry genuinely wants to be good without any of the hard work to back it up

because he's never had any consequences.

And it's an interesting dynamic. On that language front that you guys, that you both raised so beautifully earlier, I thought the juxtaposition of, um, one of my new favorite characters. Just someone to really admire Kevin Rawl,

played by the great Pip Torrance who runs this like thinly veiled version of the sun for the, for the Norton company. He calls Yaz a hard bird. And then later in the episode,

So hard bird versus so soft.

“And those both of those things can be true about Yaz at the same time.”

This idea and something that Marseille Bella has said in a bunch of interviews is this idea of Yaz like cost playing power. This season, especially here at the end.

I do need a full shoulder pad report from Jenny Walker in a second.

But like, something I really, I don't have to approve of her actions in this episode to admire them. And I admire the way in which she sort of Walter White asks, gets herself out, you know, finds her own parachute. I really feel like she, there's a version of this story

in which she straps Henry to the parachute with her. If he said, help, what are we going to do? You're necessary to me, help me. People do care about what happens to you and me and us. Let's figure this out together.

Because she uses the weapons that are in his arsenal, his family's media company, you know? And the fact that she uses his, like tools for her own salvation, leaves him twisting in the wind.

“And we'll see what happens to him if anything happens to him.”

The fact that she uses the things that were weaponized against her last season, which was the Norton Media Group. And all of that, the fact that she is wielding so much power in this episode because she's, I mean, with Harper's consent because it benefits Harper as well.

But she's using Harper as a tool, which means that, like, Harper then goes to Jim Zeditor Burgess.

Forgotten Burgess is doing basically asmons bidding.

What happens with Lisa is Yasmons bidding right, Henry and Wendy is all, like, Yasmons are architecture design. And so, like, I'm just, I like her finding her power, even if I'm like, I don't approve of your actions. But I approve of you finding control of power where you can,

when you've felt vulnerable and powerless, previous. Jodi, what do you think of Yasmons? Well, what we have here is a naturally born PR girly, who was trying for too long to be a finance girly. It has, of course, you know, when she was going comes,

when she was being put in, like, head of comms, this is, we were like, what is happening here? This, she is not comms, but this is what Yasmons is good at. It is, in this case, what she is especially good at, when it serves her.

When you're in, you know, public relations, you are in fact working for other people, but when she's sharpening her skills because she needs them to work for her, it makes a lot of sense. And Yasmons shrink that she sort of calls on sometimes, but refuses to acknowledge because unlike Henry,

she lacks so much self-awareness unless completely pushed into a corner.

She's a sponge, like, it's what people have always admired

and been jealous of about her. She speaks six different languages. She is a natural networker. She brings people into her orbit and keeps them there. And if she could see that as a strength instead of her burden to bear

and call on when she has to, maybe she could use it for good. But mostly, she will use it to get out of the bad situation. She's got herself into. Yeah, it's clear by the end of this episode. She's starting to at least understand that part of herself

as an incredible asset. And it's kind of pitching herself to Jennifer Bevan as like, you know, let me know if I can help get you out of future jams like this, which she's basically told, go fuck yourself. I didn't want you to do any of this in the first place.

Yeah, you don't want to get them to jump anyway, come on. Like, she certainly does not. Yeah. But like in this whole episode, it's like a race of who can tell the best, most compelling story the fastest.

And Yasmons, like she wins because she is driven because she knows how to do it because she knows what buttons to push. And like, that's hard to knock even if it is, as you said, Joe, like, put to ends that we may not ultimately agree with. And you know, and like, she herself is is, let's talk about this,

Norton, this conversation she has with Norton, a few conversations. But like, the one on the phone specifically where she gets off and she's like,

“genuinely, grace-stricken, I think, with what has happened here.”

I think a question I saw a lot of people asking after this episode is like, what, we understand why Yasmons did but she did. Why did Norton Henry's uncle like throw him under the bus this way? And I thought it was interesting that phone conversation where they sound so much more like, you know, like defeated parents,

like a mother and father at the end of their rope with a kid who just like, he's fucking up and keeps fucking up. And is Yasmining like a very specific narrative and using language that she knows that Norton has like concerns about and respond to, yes. But at the same time, I think that Norton, his reaction to me was,

the way I can explain to myself is that he's like, let's have him hit rock bottom and see if that's something that works for him. What do you think, Rob? I think, I mean, we get on the previously on this flashback to the Henry line

And I think there's a lot in this episode to dispute that fact.

“I think Yasmons does care about Henry and perhaps love him in a certain kind of way.”

But as we talked about, she's kind of been aware since at least episode two of the season that she is on her own. Ever since Henry's like, but what if we had a kid to solve all of our problems?

She's like, well, maybe I need to find my way out of basically any jam we get into.

And so she's doing things that are damaging to him. Obviously, there will be painful to him. But I think she's also put forth like a pretty reasonable effort to get him out of like the perpetual bender that Whitney has him in. There really is something to the parallel, this guy who has struggled with substance abuse,

who's just kind of like chasing Whitney on this high around the world to save a company that barely even exists anymore. Like there is a certain kind of spiraling quality that's echoing that where Henry is enabling Whitney in so many ways. And Yasmons is trying to pull him out of it by giving him a dose of reality. He didn't want that.

And so is this not like the harshest and coldest dose of reality of all, which is to, you know, maybe face a single consequence. But when you put yourself in that savior position like Yas has and like Uncle Alexander kind of has. You then have to protect yourself most in order to save this other person who is putting themselves in harm's way. In which case you are ultimately sacrificing them as well.

“It's, I think that she cares about Henry, but I think that when a love starts like that,”

it's sort of impossible to know what love is and what's, and what's striving anything. Certainly nothing is selfless. Absolutely not. And I do think it's interesting that part of her pitch to, to Northern among like many moments inside its episode is, you know, talking about the fam, I'm putting the family first, right?

And does that feel like it's a contradiction when you're, you know, leaving your husband out to drive, throwing him on the bus, whatever he prefer. But like, I think it goes back to this line that we hear from Wellamena in this episode, which is, has shown up in every single season of industry, which is the institution doesn't suffer, right? This is an Adlerism and season one that Harper repeats back to Adler in season two that Eric repeats back to Adler in season three. As he is spucking him over and Willamena is like, here's the, put it on the merchant peer point. This is, this is what we do. But like this idea, you know,

one of the various institutions that we're protecting, who, like Ricky Marm with a Y, his, his priority is protecting, you know, the PM against any damage. So we got to throw Lisa under the bus here. And like, if Norton's mission is to protect the larger sense of the family, and then doing so in, in protecting their larger reputation in needing Henry to hit rock bottom here, is there a way you can sort of square those two ideas? What do you think, Jody? No, I don't know. These, these, these, these people are driving me around in circles,

and trying to, I mean, I'll, I'll, I could think was like, I want to know Willamena's story. Yeah, I, I want to know how she, I don't know how she, you know, like, you know, like, I want to know where it got. I want to know where it got it. That was like a, oh, I know where it got, that was a crispy diet coke.

I get to know from the fully art. You see, I think, and there's always a chance that you get behind the scenes, and it's just as unseemly.

But like, she follows this tag sort of of the, the institution doesn't suffer, but to see her come out so light and airy from these people spinning out of control on the verge of going to prison on the verge of their families going into financial ruin or on the verge of great successes, and she's just like, oh, yeah, I just leveraged you for a deal that we were making, and this is my like congratulations. You know, double cheeseburger. I ended and another in another phone call we see her in like her very beautiful bathroom being her skin care.

And I just wanted to know how you operate in this world in a way that much like Rob Mahoney seems, you know, very balanced, very well adjusted. And, you know, maybe how we could get that messaging and maybe that therapist to Yaz and Harper.

“I don't know how I feel about being the Wilhelmina of this podcast. And, oh, you should feel very good about that.”

You love a crispy diet. I mean, that is definitely just more that much is certainly true. And you know, maybe in my own way, I am like the greedy McDonald's consuming American, you know, just counterpointed to all of this. So we are, we are. You mentioned Joe, you mentioned in Wilhelmina is lovely bathroom. I feel like this is a good time as I need to give us the fashion report on this episode.

What would you like to, who's, who's got the most powerful locus shoulder pads are doing the most to communicate their, their sort of level of boss pitching us to us?

It's not something that's done in television a lot. And when it is it usually has meaning and like it really conveys that this is a young woman who has gotten some really important pieces.

In to her wardrobe and just like any other normal woman would repeat them over the course of several months. So this sort of like neoprene corset top that's very powerful that she's wearing at the beginning of the episode. I think we've seen her wear another time.

“Love that she ended out and ended up out at the club in like a business halter top. It was like a double breasted halter top.”

And you mentioned the, you know, the meeting with Kevin and and now jazz in her PR girly era and really in her sort of hard bird era like, but also soft also, you know, being very soft to Jenny. This is a friendship family. I think hard bird era is so awesome. Absolutely.

Am I not wearing a turtle neck today?

I'm trying, but the way that they seem to be conveying this hard bird but sort of hiding it with a softness thing is that she is wearing a cropped double breasted blazer, which is not something you see a lot.

“It's not something quite a rounded shoulder on that crop doesn't blazer.”

She was softened it right. I also think Jenny's Jenny pairs that her blazer with like a long pleaded skirt like this is her her particular look which I thought was really interesting.

On the politics front, unlike Lisa, Jenny, Ricky Martin and then we get the return though for me long anticipated a weighted return of Edward Holcroft of Sebastian Stefanowitz someone who's politics.

I do not agree with but an actor who I really admire. Nope. Nope. It's not for me. If you say so, Jill, I don't know. I see some similarities. Yeah, you know me. But how do you feel about like how much politics is taking over this season or do you anticipate it as like as a show leaning even further into that going forward like what do you think? I like this portrayal of it because I think this episode in this season tapped into some interesting things on the political side as far as what

Nyevadi looks like and the idea again, we've been talking about truth and messaging all throughout the season in this episode like ultimately the things that are levied against Lisa are the things that Jennifer actually did.

“And so it's like the truth is weaponized to an extent, it's just pointed in a different direction as far as who's held accountable for that truth.”

And I think accusing Lisa as she is in this episode of being herself like a little too romantic about the political process, I think it's fair. Like she was naive enough to deputize Jennifer in the capacity she did, and that was ultimately her undoing, even as Jennifer herself was naive enough to both get played and be resentful of the way she was played and then present the fact that someone saved her from being played in the first place. So, there's a lot to unpack with this whole storyline, but I like the way it kind of nestles into the world of manipulation that industry treads on so well.

Well, and it makes it so that being romantic in this world is kind of just having good intentions like these really were not women who intended to do anything wrong. These are people who were manipulated by what oh what does Jenny say about. She says journalism shouldn't be about myth making for an aristocratic class. Which sure could anyone think of that line on the spot? No, but quite a banger. I really really got me really got me to think but I love how Kevin's like what a fucking idiot. He's exactly what it is.

What a romantic. What a dummy. No wonder she's in this position, no wonder she's landed herself here and then to see him admiring Yasmin for the way that she's about to twist this narrative twist this truth. This story is it is a it is a harsh look an unromantic look at reality. I do love the way that Jennifer is someone who like has the survival instincts enough to set the meeting. And then just doesn't have the stomach to see literally any of it through, but also doesn't even stop to consider what the repercussions of having the meeting would be.

I was kind of waiting for the other shoe to drop with that, but I guess there is none or at least there wasn't on this week. I mean we've got one more episode to go. We certainly do. Yeah, winning an episode seven is probably not like the safest place. I mean that is why I'm very we'll get we'll come back to Harper and yes, but like this. Come by a moment in the penultimate episode of the season tough. Oh, I would call it tentative mostly driven by Molly. Yeah, really, really tough. I do want to call that. So like an Edward Hillcroft in this role, you know, he shows up on this, you know, TD program and Pip Torn's who was incredible on the crown kind of misused on succession, but is like just like an absolute closer of an actor.

And as yet to be greenlit season five sort of seating of various characters that we can maybe keep our own. So if we've got the tabloid editor and the reform party politician, like, you know, how how much are we going to move into the slime year parts of these of these industries.

Um, as we as we go forward in the future season, I don't want to answer that, but it kind of feels just based on the actors that kind of feels like that might be where they're going.

Well, even just with the inevitable creep of this story, it's like the three ways in which we're zooming out are on politics on the journalistic aspects as well. And as we kind of are learning more and more about like what's in it for Russian operatives to be involved in a company like tender, which I would add a sets, you know, all about that a set all of a sudden that big old list of who was paying who for what porn payment plans feels like a particularly squeezable enterprise for Russian friends.

“I think that this episode, even though it was it was a lot as Rob noted, like I think what I really liked about it at the end was that the politics of this season and the sort of”

Um, overwhelming British media corporation of this season finally clicked into place for me. I was kind of like, I think I understand what's going on.

A little bit still real loose on the finance. There was a moment when we go back to to tell Stern after it does seem like, you know, you know, it's going under the stocks going to plummet whatever and Harper goes, I'm glad to see we're all speaking the same language and the exact same time in my head. I was like, I literally have no idea what you're talking about. I just have to track like how agitated his club and when he's erasing things on the whiteboard and that then I understand, like, basically.

And he was grinning ear to ear and he was trying and that was helpful to me.

Exposition club and I mean, this is what the whiteboard was deployed for.

“Yeah, um, okay, Jodie hard hitting question for you. Oh, it's winning debt or CLF. What do you think?”

This is tough. We just got a, you know, we're the ones who make the bets. So I just got to make a bet. I think he's alive. It just to me, I know he got the big threats. I know a scape is not an option. It's not as well conveyed to him by several scarier men than he, but there was something about him that still made me think that he could escape or that he could be sucked into the larger organization. And not that he was killed and they left his phone behind as a fun little clue. What do you think? Well, I would just say I don't think industry is the kind of show where at the beginning of an episode he's like, if you see him without this phone,

I'm dead and then we see him without his phone and he's dead. Like I would be really disappointed if that was the case. What do you think, Rob? I think you still alive. I think a couple of things for one. This episode overall makes a very compelling case that to whatever extent Whitney was ever a like I'm three moves ahead of everyone game player. That time has passed and now he's doing like whatever he needs to do to get through today, basically. He doesn't strike me as someone who has like a lot of rope to plan ahead beyond the moves he's already made.

So I just don't think he had like a separate exit strategy with a different phone and a different removable SIM card. So I don't think he's done it on his own and I don't think not to take the Russians at their word here, but it does kind of suit them to keep him alive to face the consequences of everything that happens with tender. It's like, right, if you can pin the whole tender quagmire on this like opportunistic American guy who's committing all this fraud as opposed to Russian interference. Like that's a pretty compelling story to tell in its own way.

So I think he's kind of ducked out a side door to go somewhere, but I think he is without question coming back for the finale and we'll probably face him pretty heinous consequences himself. Oh, yeah, when he's in like the big suburban of death and he's like so if tender dies, I die and they're like you wish babe, like absolutely not. Escape is a fantasy, even the escape of death, like you have gotten yourself into this one and I love I mean, I hate to say that I love these guys, but I love the Russians.

Yeah, the Russian love them.

“The line of just acts like the great lie of your life is not that different from its only truth, your world class at that performance, now find the version of yourself who remembers it.”

And this is so mirrored to things we have heard Whitney tell Henry, and now these big scary guys are telling this to Whitney and it's just like, can you believe that when you are a person who uses other people. Is other people as tools that you might be a tool to someone else.

Here's the world might work like that.

“Here's a question now inside of an episode where several people are mocked for being too romantic.”

I'm going to bring this romantic notion to the table. Is there any version of this story where Whitney kicked Jonah out of tender so like publicly that he could not. He could not possibly be blamed for anything that that goes on. That there was like a way to kind of save this guy who. Max and Gillah has said an interviews like Jonah actually does matter to him.

So like it was that horrible knifeing actually salvation of some kind. No, okay. No, no. Well, I'm not going.

But look, I just have no choice but to try to believe in male friendship at this point.

Yeah, you're going to have a life raft out of here. It's really like not. And Henry and Whitney are not, you know, the most compelling. I will for what I'll say, I am susceptible to Whitney's whole deal. Like I find him to be such a captivating character.

And like you know he's a snake, but I will watch him slither around all day. And so if you tell me there is just the slightest softest underbelly for his old pal Jonah where he did kick him overboard. Yes, so he could continue to do what the Russians asked in terms of the bidding within tender. But also to save his like maybe only one friend in the world. I am romantic enough to believe that notion.

But this is how I end up in a Russian body bag somewhere. I am realistic and I have to believe that Whitney would try to sell that story to Jonah at some point if it served him. Something that I sort of did double-take across various interviews. Both Kitt Harrington and Max Bingella have talked about the way that Henry views Whitney as a father figure. And I'm like, that's super weird given their sexual dynamics.

But then I remembered the like when Ghost Dad shows up at the beginning of the season. There was a real vibe between the two of them. So I'm like, okay, I guess if like if Henry is just like snuggling jazz as if she's his mom. And like, you know, in like letting a father figure of a kind, watch him shower, then this is just where we're living inside of this season of industry.

Oh, Henry, Henry, you poor knife chiseled failboard. Like, can I tell top from bottom? Oh, well, I guess in literally every sense, come here and come on. It's just, it's a disaster. Everything that's going on with him.

Frankly, he's dug his own grave. Yeah.

“Yeah, it really meant, we'll see. I think that even in this episode, as we see like Henry's whole world view falling apart.”

His life falling apart, his tender stock, not doing well. He's still is looking at Whitney in this sort of like admiring. I know fascinated way. And it is that kind of fascination you have with your dad where you're like, how does he do that? How does he turn the lawn more or whatever with this guy?

I like why he's fine fascination with this type of person. I love a cult leader. I love a scammer. I want to understand how their mind works because my mind can't work like that. And when you see Henry over and over being like, no one would ever think of this as the solution. How is your mind, how do you, how do you think like this in this circumstance?

And then just going along with it, even though it is clearly sort of abnormal and and Whitney, you know, as a lover of scammers, like he, it always brings to mind Elizabeth Holmes.

And there is this idea in this or these types, Billy McFarlane to ever. Is that why the turtle neck is black today? Yes, that is why I have worn my own um, Elizabeth Holmes scamming turtle neck. I love it. Red lip neck comes next week is that there are these people who they have the passion, they have the drive. If that you think like if they could just dedicate it to something worthwhile, could they do it or is the live part of it is like needing to follow what's not real and needing to make it up part of it.

“And that's why Whitney in this situation can kind of just keep swimming through and Henry is a spiraling out of control.”

I want to take us to Harper and yes, um, I have two favorite line deliveries in this episode. From Harper, it's what memo. It's like, as it was writing into my notes, I was like, how do I, how do I catalog how this sound dead? I went with really long ellipsis. Yeah, what memo. Really good. And then for yes, a much more serious note.

And to that season three slap fest that happened. But, um, when yes says, and it's more so bell is delivery. I kind of grew up at someone's mercy.

And I just felt so sick and so upset. And this is as much a confession as yes has ever given about what, you know, at the very end of season three, we get that the, you know, the woman who she has employed and then fires immediately after who is just basically like. Something bad happened to you and I understand that yes breaks down, but doesn't say it doesn't, you know, doesn't confirm it or say anything, but watching it, you could understand that she was abused by her father. We get, you know, the great clear for Lonnie here for one episode to make our skin crawl about it once again, but this confession.

Um, as sort of, um, merely mouthed as the language is the emotion behind it. I kind of grew up at someone's mercy and the way in which Harper receives it is just this incredible degree of intimacy, which I. Um, and, and, and her insistence that she feel necessary versus her father's screaming in her face or before he dies, that she's spectacularly fucking useless, you know, just like this, this core wound for her, the way in which Harper is offering her a little bit of healing, but at the same time.

My question to your Jodi is like, is this not almost exactly the move we saw, yes, make it the end of last season with Rob, this like bid for intimacy, this bid for like you and I understand each other better than anyone else.

When she says she killed her father, and, you know, this sort of like confessional close intimacy, penultimate episode sort of maneuver from yes, so how, how sincere she always in these moments.

Um, and then what's to prevent those moments from sticking, you know.

“Oh, well, I think what could make them stick is a good deal of therapy. It is what is making them not stick is sort of leaving these intimate true real vulnerable feelings.”

Unexamined and running away from the scary and painful fact of them at the beginning of that sort of conversation at the bar, yes says to Harper kind of like laughing, how did we get here, like how did we get in this place and Harper says, what drives anyone anywhere, lack need and it's like, first of all, what a world view that's tough, but also true. Yeah. And, you know, Jasmine can say, I, I just want to be necessary and Rob can make her feel necessary and Harper can make her feel necessary. But those aren't the people she wants to feel necessary to. She's chasing the wound of her father telling her that she is a necessary and seeking out people who make her feel a similar kind of unnecessary that maybe she can win over.

And that person isn't Rob and she watched him scratch off that letter ticket in that gas station and that moment of vulnerability was never going to stay.

Yeah, I'm fortunate. I think in these relationships, absolutely right, Jody, like the ones that she wants are not the ones that she can reasonably have given everyone's emotional bandwidth and with the way he has operates, like, I think intimacy is bait a lot of times. It's like a way to get a certain level of closeness and then once that line is crossed beyond the pale of what she is willing to actually entertain, she rejects rejects rejects burns down everything moves on to the next person or the next opportunity.

“Well, that's, I think that's a bit more mercenary than how I view her, but like I think she really means it in the moment.”

Yeah, I think so too. And I don't think it's like, I think I mostly grew up with what you're saying, I just would like turn down the calculation on it slightly and I think it's just sort of like when it gets uncomfortably close. When she feels out of control. For sure. You know.

Well, and it's why it's why it's why people perceive Yasmin like that as this like teaser, man killer, whatever. It's accidental bait.

“She means it when she says it and she needs the people that she's saying it to, but it's too, it's much scarier to live in something than to say something.”

Yeah. And she cannot live in the reality of what she is sometimes able to confess. I find which I absolutely loved of like we're here forever, even if we can't be. Is just like, uh, absolutely sliced, sliced into me like girl. Very lucky.

You can be, you can do it. Robin is gilded one in 10. How much people thinking about the iconic. Faith and Buffy bad girls dance for both of you have her slayer when we saw these two on the dance floor.

And of course, because industry did what Buffy could not in 1999 or whatever year that was, which is put these two in bisexual lighting.

“You know, like, let's really make the subtext text and then just have to make out just in case you don't get it.”

But it was like so like tender. It was very tender. But it was just sort of like, it wasn't like that kind of like hedonistic shit that Henry and when you were doing and it wasn't, you know, it was just sort of like. And this idea of like, I'll take care of you and you take care of me. I love that.

I'm just like my heart. It's another exchange of intimacy that you don't have to stick to. It's a soft kiss on the dance. And it's nice. And it's nice.

We'll take care of each other tonight and then and then we get. So this brings me back to, I want, obviously, I want to talk about the music in this episode. We, we end this episode.

You know, the death punk has come back in and then the absolutely 80s banger.

The promise by winning room, which, which gets cut off at the beginning of the episode. So the episode starts with the death punk track. And it, and then we get the absolutely iconic opener for winning rooms, I promise. And I was like, so ready to pop out to. I promise because I love that song.

You're happy. Surely you're happy. Yeah. Here we go. And then it just cuts out because like, that's not. Yeah.

That's not what Henry and Yas have. But in this moment, for at least, maybe not forever, but for right now. Um, Yas and Harper have that at the end of this episode. And the positions are reversed where, where Yas is sort of like snuggled up and leaning on, on Harper the way that Henry was leaning on her.

And, and then this absolute banger comes back in. So we want to talk about the music in this episode as a whole, but like, who wants to take a floor on talking about a death punk or any of the other 80s tracks that are inside this episode? There's no confident that it's right.

Yeah. Well, they're all over the place. Yeah. You know, not to, not to get ahead of ourselves, Joe, but we're entertaining the idea of like,

“how would we insert our own favorite 80s banger into the show and where?”

And I had to like triple quadruple check that the 80s bangers I had intended are not just already in the show. Because it's completely same and like three of them more. And I was like, oh, inescapable. It's like, don't you even think about trying to put Iran in the show?

Because Iran is already in the show. Literally in this episode. Very on the nose of Lee in this episode. Yeah. And I find those to be for me, like some of the most successful deployments of the 80s

tunes yet are not just like, oh, this is a great synth track. We're going to pull like the instrumental beginning to underscore scene. But industry loves like a little cheeky, slightly counterpoint. Like a little too happy for whatever is being shown on screen. So text inversion and like, honestly, what better decade to turn to.

Yeah. So in this episode, we get a cover of heroes by Big Ben Tribe.

We get Iran, FOC of Seagulls, like as Whitney, like over Whitney, incredible.

We get the enia that Rob number one Enia lover mentioned earlier, only time. You know what? I will, I will wear that too. Anything about this specific deaf tongue track that you want to highlight. This is a various quote, which is also very disco.

I guess is the is the play on where it's there, which is supposed to be a bit of like, quote about us, but like anything. Have they, you, I don't know if they've used deaf tongue before, but like, I thought it was usually well in this episode. Well, it's just like impossible to hear that track.

“And have either of you seen the deaf punk anime movie interstellah 5555?”

Yes. Do you know what? Yeah, I mean, I have not told me about it. Uh, I wish I could tell you the plot of it. I'm not sure that anyone making the movie is familiar with the plot of it.

It is like a mushroomy haze of a movie, understandably, under the circumstances, but like this particular like series of notes is just like so transported for time and place for me. Like, oh, you are in a college dorm room watching interstellah 5555. Uh, so I don't know if that's the appropriate place for more of a cocaine show than a hallucinogenic show. But I guess all of your drug use can overlap if you try hard enough.

Yeah, if you really try, I think they can. Um, I think on this, I just have to quickly say about, um, that this scene, Marissa Bella does something so specific with the character of Yaz when you can tell she's thinking about cocaine. She literally like, when she says, do you want to go out? Which female friendship?

Um, she like, she does this way of like sniffing her nose to the side and it's like, she's ready to like twitching. I just twitching in anticipation. She twitches her nose and sniffs and it happened a lot in season two. And I just love it.

Well, also if it weren't clear enough that Yaz and I are living in different worlds, when she says she wants to go do the stuff that Lord sang about. Here I was thinking about what Lord sings about is like, Naval gazing about how all the people in your life think you're either too much or too little at all times.

So I don't know like, which album she's tapped into. Well, I just did romantic, Rob Honey.

“I don't think that's what that album is about.”

I don't think that's a well-adjusted one, but. 80s. 80s meal drops. So we decided before a pod that we would like each pick, an A's banger that they have not used yet.

And either say where we would have put it in a semi-vardy scene, or how you imagine you could use it like in a future scene or or a scene that didn't make it, but maybe have behind the scenes or something like that. The vibe this season, the like. Ultra box, wedding room, pet shop boys, like new wave European, 80s, energy is incredible.

That was not the assignment. It could be anything from the 80s, but Jody Walker. What did you pick? I had so many thoughts going into this exercise and like Rob, many of them upon a quick Google were revealed to me to have already been in the show,

which eats through music like it eats through plot, especially 80 songs, but my mind just kept circling around Fleetwood map. And I finally got down, and I, you know, I thought about some ironic choices, and I don't know if sound wise this works with what they've been doing. But I do feel like the Harper and Yaz relationship could really be coming down to

a very undkind deployment of silver. That's a powerful Jody, that's way too powerful. That is a great deal.

Never get away from the sound of the woman in the world.

Wow. I can feel it. Yeah, it's coming. Yeah. Okay.

Some cool dust woman sort of action here for Yaz as well. From honey. When did you say that? I did go a little ironic. I couldn't help myself.

For me, it was I would love to see the bangles manic Monday in the show somewhere, and for me, the deployment was in the slow zoom of Yaz's realization that she has been staying and banging in the Hitler room. That's when I wanted to hear the plinking piano intro, or we can just go straight to chorus on manic Monday there.

But yeah, when you see Hitler's name on a panier like us, just another manic Monday. I'm also just realizing that in classic Jody fashion, I have let my passion and emotion get the best of me, and that silver springs came out in 1977. Yeah, but, you know, the cocaine bottle, right? I told you like, and I just took it back.

Yeah. Don't worry about it. I was going to go inspired by the use of Iron Floccus Eagles, which is just like so audacious ly all the nose inside of this episode. Yeah.

I thought I would go something incredibly on the nose, which is this is for sweet pea. And it's one of my all-time favorite like 80s karaoke songs, which is a racer's a little respect. You know, and this is like this is like all sweet pea wants. It's like respect her.

And it's an absolute, absolute classic burger that if you've never sung a karaoke, you

should try it because it's the best. So that was my pick. I love a racer. I'm a huge unironic or racer fan. So that's me.

Also, it's sweet pea.

“And I guess quabina, are they in this show anymore?”

Or it was it just like you get your one showcase episode. And then you're here to sit in the background and ask about Eric. Is that, will we expect their deployment to be in the finale? Well, yeah, that's some finale questions. What do you think, Rob?

Do you want a mass amount of sweet pea and quabina? Like, what else? Like, we haven't seen Haley in this episode. What does Haley have? Like, what do you want to see in the finale?

It's so true. I mean, the yeah's Haley stuff in particular. I felt even going into their previous conversation on screen, which was Haley, like, laying out all the dirt for jazz. It already felt like we had taken a big jump from their previous interaction being Haley

flashing jazz on the way out of the elevator. So like, I'm just missing some of the connected tissue there. If Haley is a continued part of the show, but maybe she's not. Like, maybe she ultimately was just like a part of this larger machine.

And we're never going to hear from her again.

“I think I'm just like looking at this finale, unsure of what is going to happen in any direction.”

Like, I think Whitney will be back. It will be facing some kind of music for the things he's done from whom I think is up for a debate. Haley, like, right up ahead or otherwise, yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah. But like, where else does the plot trail go?

Like, they've already run through so much story this season. We reached so many like natural sort of closing beats that now things things can get kind of explosive. If they want to, like, you can really wipe entire plot lines or characters or enterprises off the board. If that's where industry wants to go. What do you think, honey?

Well, I think Haley certainly remains a tool in the belt. And she does get a mention this episode in the form of the, the guy in the peer point meeting, who kind of unexpectedly stands up for Whitney's right to speak and Whitney says, you know, maybe he dated Haley. Well, of course.

Fuck off, Whitney. And Henry says dated, because in reason, idiot. And that's, you know, she's got information. People have information about her as she is connected with Yaz.

I think Yaz is going to want something from her.

Those two are going to link up. You mentioned sweet pee and it's like, I do feel like sweet pee has been set up to be betrayed. And how much more time do we have to do that? And I think it doesn't happen.

“Is that just an unclosed loop and actually Harper's grown and won't betray sweet pee?”

I mean, I mean, I really like claimed to be able to speak financials, legibly in any kind of way, but was we shorting the market next week, I believe, so we got to, we do need to get on top. Well, was she not saying, okay, you know, will, will run our short or whatever, but then we got to like get out before XYZ and Harper's like,

this is, yeah, yeah, precisely when I wrote down when Harper says we're speaking the same language. And I said, I literally have no idea what does she says. No one wants to catch the knife tomorrow morning. We hit the tape small. Don't show our hand and exit as efficiently as we can show me dollars.

So I think it just means we hit the tape small. Yeah, of course. Like you do. No, as we do. You see if you're seeing your numbers go up.

Yeah. And then you like cut bait before it happens to like crash again or something like that. Right. Get out. Don't get greedy.

We don't want to catch the knife. And we don't want to catch the knife. Sorry, that's the, that's the fallacy. Don't even try it. Yeah, don't even try it.

You're never going to hit the handle only only a blade.

And ultimately show me dollars. Yes. Will Henry suffer any real consequences? I mean, there was a moment in this episode. You said we, you know, we don't start the episode with Whitney saying like if you see me without this phone, I'm dead.

Right. And then have him die. There was a moment when Uncle Alexander and Yaz were talking back and forth about like,

“Is this love or like this is going to destroy Henry?”

And I was like, oh, he's going to die at the end of the episode. Like we like the last scene of this will be him. I mean, reducing. And then I was like, no, no, they're not going to do that. But I mean, I think there's a 50/50 chance he makes it out of this season alive.

I think the thing that I'm really interested in seeing like, in terms of like where we're going politically is very interesting to me. How do you mean he can be involved? How much of those wacky Russians going to be like, you know, how far does the compromise go? How far do the roots, the, you know, spindly little roots go inside of all of these plot lines from from the Russian content. You know what I mean?

Okay, maybe also maybe I'm a little baby little idiot. But like at the beginning of the episode, when everyone keeps being like, you can't claim ignorance, Henry. You're implicated. I was kind of like, okay, but he actually is ignorant. Why?

Like, is there not a way to prove that he literally did not know about any of like, So they're legitimate. They are dumb, but they legitimately didn't know. I do think there's a potential version of this. We're Henry actually gets no consequences, just because like he's so, you know,

insulated from consequences in general in his life. The, the only consequence being like his marriage falls apart or something like that. And he's like, okay. He's like, okay. He has that which time he went into the office that shortly he understands is bugged to the gills.

And, and said, and, and had Whitney say, like, you didn't know about any of this, but you're implicated and then he's like, you're right. I guess I'll do crime now. Right. He got this letter.

Like, couldn't let or not be evidence. But Henry is so stupid. And he has, and he has a, and he has a so disinclined to help him at this point. That, um, I do think there was a clear way out of that. But like, that's the things like Whitney will just sort of like,

flimflam whatever he needs to flimflam. He'll say like, I have a bunch of shares in peer point or whatever it is. Uh, you know, if he gets my head, and Henry's just dumb enough to be like, okay. Well, Henry's like, oh, this notorious liar must be telling me. It must.

Yeah, the fact that it takes him until the plane right at the end for the scales to fall from his eyes and see what Whitney is and like slam the fart.

You know, when the glory finally leaves the hole.

I guess if you prefer it. Mm-hmm. Thank you. It's just embarrassing for Henry.

“And I think, look, it is hard to prove I am dumb as a substantial legal defense.”

But if anyone could do it, I think Henry might could try. Or it's incredibly, um, yeah, it's incredibly humbling or upsetting to, um, be called a child in the middle of a hissy fit, which is what is happening on that plane. Um, well, that is our episode about the panel's bit. Uh, episode of industry this season.

I'm like very sad that we're almost done with this season. But we'll be back next week for the finale. Uh, thank you to Jodie Walker. Thank you to Rob McCombie. Thank you to Dev who who works on the show.

Thank you to Justin Sales. Thank you. Uh, you know, to everyone. You know, to all of you for listening. For sending your well actually, for sending your thoughts.

For helping us understand finance. Y'all in the best we'll see you soon. Bye.