‘Industry’ Season 4, Episode 6: False Bottom

- Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast beat. I'm Joyter Robinson. - I'm Rob Mahoney. - I'm Jodie Walker. - From New York, it's Jodie Walker.

- Let's go. - I like you. - You're in studio. - It is, see you guys. - Studio.

“- And yes, headphones. - This is, I love 'em.”

- And audio podcasts.

You can always watch us if you prefer to.

And, you know, come see us in the good light of the studio. This is what we are doing here today. So, we are discussing the industry episode Dear Henry, written by Mickey Down and Conrad, have you heard of them and directed by Luke Snellon.

I was wondering, guys. - Mm-hmm. - Is it too late in the season to change our contact email address to John Snow Glory-hole at Gmail. - How do you feel about it?

- A real misopportunity by us. We really should watch ahead, but if we had teased from episode one, John Snow Glory-hole, I mean, just imagine how differently people

would have been experiencing the season. - Is this the first Glory-hole of industry? I believe so. - He did. - The most beautiful. - I feel like we've had that a Oracle Glory-hole. - So many.

This is where we are literalizing the metaphor here. Yeah, this one was taped up.

I wanna start with the most important thing,

“and I think we'll all agree that happens in this episode.”

Our guy on Raj is alive and well and working for Jesse Bloom. Jody Walker, how do you feel about it? I was thrilled. He looked like an adult.

Oh, so far from him. To be away from Rishi. I mean, I guess in the loving arms of Jesse Bloom, so maybe, is there anywhere good to be in this world? We're watching, I'm not sure, but he looked happy.

Did he not? He looked like he was thriving. And here's what I hope. I hope that as Eric's usage of hotel bathrooms has written, Jesse Bloom's has fallen,

and he is no longer sort of robe gobbling his way through life. A sort of host prison, Jesse Bloom, that's my hope.

Rob, would you like to wait on the most important moment

of our times, which is on Raj's appearance in this episode? I just don't like the side swipe you're taking at robe goblins. Like that is a whole way of life,

“and you're just talking down to those people.”

Rob, is it because robe has the word robin it that you feel the need to defend it? Are you a real robe guy? Wow. This is an outfit that I've been going for.

I don't know how I feel about Rob gobblin, but I have no choice but to do it. We'll learn some of it. Did you like this episode of television? It was a little harder to swallow than you were average

industry episode for me. It was a lot. It was a big leap in to Russian cabals. It was a lot of focus on Whitney. It was devastating in terms of my beloved,

but morally corrupt Eric. It was a difficult episode. I did not like it, but I did find it challenging and like really needed to watch it twice. - Industry does this thing where it's walking

oftentimes on the razor's edge of like, we might, Teter and Tamello drama, we might fear interradiculousness. Oh no, we're definitely varying interradiculousness, but the experience of watching it

is exhilarating in a way because of all those things that nothing else is on TV. Right now, like the sheer unpredictability of this show, where I guess we're just watching the Americans now and I had no idea that's the show

that we were going through this whole time and I'm down for that and I'm here for it, but like along the way, every step feels so rickety. And in a way, I really like that. It just makes it so hard to understand where we are

from moment to moment. - Yeah, like Harper has lived in the UK for a decade now and we haven't had to hear anything about the passport or a visa. This was like the first time a passport

has come into play and we've sort of had to wonder where people came from. - Maxim and Gella in an interview with our beloved Katie Baker. When we see the Lithuanian passport

for your favorite character, Jodie Whitney, Maxim and Gella said, you're meant to question whether or not he's actually American at all. Like we're not sure.

I don't think he's confirming originating or the show is confirming or denying whether or not this is a fake passport or whether or not this is Whitney's true origins that he is a Lithuanian who remade himself

as an American. But one of my favorite sort of things that the Reddit detectives have decided is that because Whitney sang some Whitney Houston on the phone to Harper, I want to dance to somebody,

and I just want to, if that's true, which I don't think it is. But if that's true, I kind of want that story of like how a Lithuanian who decided to remake himself American decided that Whitney would be his name's fake in this endeavor.

Joe, with all due respect, why wouldn't it be a god to your song? A god to your wedding buff among other things. But really just summer, Jame, like, when is I want to dance with somebody a bad idea? And when is styling yourself after Whitney Houston?

Maybe certain elements aside a bad idea. I'm just wondering about Harper's Reddit investigation experience in that moment. She is already freaked out by him singing on the phone after making just like a lot of, you know,

very obvious statements that he is a pure bread sociopath. And then she has to be like, he's singing a song named after himself.

“So we're doing here, that's what he's doing.”

Do you think he should have, if he was going to name himself after Whitney Houston, should have been like, first name Whitney last name, I want to dance with somebody? I would, she'd named himself Houston. Not an idiot, he was a buddy.

Have, have either of you had someone breathily sing a ballad or a pop song of any kind over the phone? And exactly the manner that Whitney has. Is this like a common universal experience that I've been missing out on?

Define, breathily. I mean, I think we just saw it a little talk singing, but like, you can, you can feel his confidence building as it goes for, for good oil. I've, I don't, I've definitely been serrated on the phone

before. I don't know if I've been serrated with menis on the phone before. What do you think, Jame?

Yes, because breathily is not always

“menis saying, I don't believe I've been sung to breathily.”

I didn't take it as menis saying, but I should have, it was a threat. All right, before, so we, by we, I mean, me, I've decided that we're going to sort of talk about all of the Eric Tows towards the end of this podcast

is this might be given the sort of seemingly exit interviews that Kenlong has been giving around the old internet. It seems like this is Eric Tows, great bow out of the series, which is, really felt right into the distance there. Sure did.

Often to a sunset question mark. Yeah. So we will talk about all of that. And there's a lot to talk about sort of more towards the end. So I want to get some other things out of the way first.

And as Jody alluded to, there's a lot to get to in this episode. I want to start by saying really quickly. Something that we, that, because we recorded our last episode about industry, a little early, I didn't get a chance to sort

of lean on my favorite crush, which is Katie Baker's incredible

recaps over the rigger.com. And so she had this great insight. First of all, Mickey down said that he had been trying to get Ghana into the show for a while because his mother is from Ghana. So that was like part of it.

And then also we've been talking about the wire card fraud this whole season, how it's like a real model for what's going on. In the wire card investigation, done by the financial times, Katie Baker points out that an investigator, Stefania Palma, great name, traveled to the Philippines

and found a very similar sort of shell game operation happening in the Philippines as we pee and cobbinna find in Ghana. So that was sort of the direct inspo for I want to read this one quote. There was a listed address that, quote, led to a private home and a remote village surrounded by rice patties where, quote,

Palma was greeted by two Filipino men who were grooming a small white poodle and a Pomeranian, neither of them had heard of this sort of parent company.

So I mean, look, Joe first of all, as a reporter,

that is the image that you dream of. That is the scene setting that you wish you could walk into for every story. But unfortunately, it's a lot more just like people in rooms, people. I love that Stefania had her notebook ready. And she was like, is that a Pomeranian?

Great, I got to write it down, make sure that you don't forget to tell her. No, you got it, you got to have it in there. This is all according to this, mass is sort of New Yorker piece on the wirecard. A scandal that Katie has been drawing from in a couple of our recaps. Our pal Chris Ryan read the whole thing and was texting me this weekend where he was like,

this is basically the blueprint for the show.

“So if you want to read about the wirecard scandal and everything that happened,”

there's a lot of places you can do it. But apparently this like specific New Yorker profile is a good resource to sort of. And maybe it has spoilers for the rest of the season. I don't know, so maybe you don't want to read it. Spoilers from reality, but that is something to think about.

On the Epstein Galen Maxwell watch that this are our favorite thing to do here on this. Absolutely not. Current podcast. Joe, we need to get you other hobbies. I got to say this is distressing for you.

I did watch another documentary, but we're going to be a talk about it. But as as the FSB, the Russian intelligence sort of makes its way into the show,

that this idea of like Russian compromise or what do they call it?

Rosal Blasheny, this idea of like exposure and and the way in which you can wield it for people, this is like one of Epstein's favorite plays. And in the recent Epstein files that were released, there are messages back and forth with Russian intelligence about certain pieces of blackmail, something like that.

So this is sort of classic. I don't know about killing journalists because isn't that our assumption that the shadowy Russian faction that is associated with Whitney is is the reason why Jim Diker died. Would you agree with that, Joe, do you think?

“Yeah, I think now that we have offers to kill on the table and we are fairly confident”

that someone has been killed. It was probably by this shadowy group. And I also have some questions about Whitney's former assistant. Really? Exactly.

Right. The previous assistant. Oh, the disappear assistant. Yeah. But also when Haley comes in and is like, hey, I'm an escort, my little cousin, also someone

that you use in all of this, this is, I don't think it's reaching to say that this is, we are doing Epstein like work here. I was hoping to avoid this particular space, but as you have been laying out week by week Joe, puzzle piece by puzzle piece, we've been here. We've been living here for a long time, unfortunately, on industry.

So I am, I am though, in both impressed and enjoying the degree to which the fraud is like not even the icing on the cake. Like the financial show came part of all this is now just like, oh, that was just like a thing that they were doing for fun.

Basically to cover up slash compliment, all of this other associated crime and infiltration

and subterfuge that's been happening by and the scenes the whole time, I'm like, my mind is spinning at the possibilities that were kind of laid bare this week. By everything that's been happening in the background of the show while we were chasing the show game. The umbrella has really widened in terms of worlds that we're dealing with when Harper

is like kind of pleading to you as like, he's not your hobbyist sociopaths like me. He's a criminal. You know, we've been doing this TED a TED for our whole young adulthood and that's been well and good.

“But we're in like a different league now and I think Harper is probably realizing the”

depths of that league as he sings when he used to turn on the phone. I don't think she even knows maybe only like Haley knows, I mean, I guess we're also learning Whitney doesn't know. Like Whitney doesn't know the extent to what he's he's dealing with, Tony has a real hollow look in his eye that makes me think he knows.

We had our conversation earlier this season about cult leaders in the pecking order and who holds the actual power. And I thought this week was like a big zoom out on Whitney to find maybe he's at the top. Maybe he's the powerless second in command that we were talking about as like Ferdinand is kind of like managing and running him.

It seems like at times in this episode and clearly he is manipulating Tony and he's also manipulating Haley. It's like there's so many puppet strings attached to so many people, it's hard to trace back who is actually pulling them. Well and when we're focused on Whitney, it seems like he's doing so much work.

I mean, he's flying Tagana every other day, you know, he's spinning his wheels. He's always moving. He's so he's so busy and then when you just zoom out a little bit and you get a bigger

adult in the room, it's like always spinning his wheels.

He's finding something to do to stay in control of this. I mean, he's he's no longer a lady. Not me, these wheels are still they got me in a swivel chair over here. I am not still the revelation that Ferdinand is sort of ranks above him.

“I think we'll make this season a really enjoyable enjoyable debatable, but an interesting”

rewatch because he was in the room in so many of these conversations where we thought Whitney was the person pulling all the the the largest strings and that was not the case. So like how much I mean, he has been speaking of menacing like he has been giving off menacing energy all season. I think we clocked up from the beginning, but like the degree to which he is actually

the one sort of making the calls, but being silent in rooms, I think is a really interesting thing to think about just for fun guys to other Epstein connections here. There is this exchange in that came out of the most recent Epstein file release between Nate Rothschild and the British politician Peter Mendelssohn where Nate said to him or not sorry, not Rothschild said to him quote, you're tragically naive as to how the financial

system works part of their job is to find suckers like you to sit on boards. Is that not the Henry Muck story writ large, right? This is what Harper says to yes, let me put this in terms your ego might listen to you been doped by a man who saw you and your husband as fools. That's just the way of the world

is trying to draw a connection between Harper and Jeffrey Epstein that is never something

that I would say, but our listeners, though, he wrote in to [email protected]. What a great email address. To point out that Jeffrey Epstein, when he went to go work at Barristerns,

“lied on his CV about the fact that he went to school, uh, finished school, right?”

This is a quote from a New York Times magazine article. Um, this guy A's Greenberg had helped build Barristerns into one of industry's scrapiest firms by issuing the traditional investment begging practice of hiring Ivy leakers with MBAs. He preferred what he called PSDs. Those who report smart and had a deep desire to become rich Epstein fit the bill.

He grew up in a working class family in Coney Island. And basically while he was working there,

he was found out that he had lied on a CV about going to college and said, when he was asked, why did you do it? He said, without an impressive degree or two, quote, I knew nobody would give me a chance, right? And then they kept him on anyway. And this was like, this is, this is highlighted as sort of an early example of Jeffrey Epstein's ability to sort of wheeze a lot of a number of situations or project so much confidence in the room that even

when he's exposed as having blatantly broken the rules or lied that he got away with it and he kept his job at Barristerns. Yeah. Um, Jody Walker or anything you want to say about. Well, it just reminds me of what Henry says to Whitney, you know, a little character fraud is fine as long as your heart is pure. Um, which is an insane thing for Henry, okay? His heart is not pure and called his wife a cunt earlier. Um, it's really a pretty wild thing for

anyone in this show to say, but it is an interesting framework with which to approach industry is like everyone's doing character fraud. Yes. Except maybe yes, who is the least successful person that we interact with on a big day basis. Right. Everyone is doing some sort of character fraud to get ahead is is anyone's heart pure? Like is anyone's heart in it for even just neutral reasons. In, you know, I found myself in this episode being like maybe Harper's okay. She was sort

“of a portness storm. Honestly, Harper is is is looking the best out of anyone in this season as far”

like it's it's sweepy and then it's Harper. Yeah. That's where my bar is honestly currently. That's a rough bar. Like, I mean, I think as far as the character fraud part of this goes, there is like a delicious irony to and in this episode in particular, Harper is really like wearing the cloak of the crusader. Like, the do-gooder I am bringing down the corrupt institution from within that is built on this fraud. But as you just think, her iconic five piece suit that

just been debuting new pieces of throughout the season. I stand corrected. But as you said, Jill, like her career itself is based on a like not dissimilar fraud. Like the Harper story and the tender story are ultimately not that far apart. It's like, I really didn't I really disagree with you. Yes. I mean, one of them is run by the Russian government, but other than that. Harper lying on her

“CV to get a job versus, yeah, that's what I'm talking to, strictly about like the financial”

maneuverings that is leading tender to become a bigger and bigger company, right? The shell game part of it, right? Of like, if you have a fundamental lie that you can sell hard enough and then keep things moving so that people don't look too closely, you can convince people of almost anything as far as where you came from. And so many of the characters on the show as we're talking about are rooted in these sorts of lies or have kind of rewritten their histories to be

basically whatever they need them to be at a given moment. But what are your goals in this in this

rewriting in these narratives? And I think that when you look at Harper, her goals are almost always

insular. They are to get herself more money. I think they're rarely even power driven. They are they are wells and perhaps power for herself. But when you look at someone like Whitney who's always trying to go bigger and bigger and bigger and for what? Why are you trying to disrupt banks? So what will you get out of this? Will you finally be able to wear Henry like a skin suit if you disrupt banks? No, but it must feel like that. Let's talk about Winnie and Henry here.

So you know, to your point, Rob, and I think that's you can you can definitely make the case and we've certainly pulled out quotes all season about you tell your own story, the story begins when you start telling it all that sort of stuff like that. We're all confidence men in one shape or another inside of this story. Win Henry says to Whitney, in a rare moment of clarity, why does everything from your life sound like a bad novel? I really love that line and then followed with don't worry

story, which at our, you know, we had seen some like close talking, some hands on the shoulder,

“all the stuff like that. I think we took a hard right turn into talented Mr. Ripleyville”

inside of this episode. When we've got, you know, basically like how's the peeping Tommy? Like

when we get Whitney walking into look at Henry while he's showering and Henry like well nobody takes past anymore. You know, we're not show or culture now. Exactly. It's not due lawn about to, but it'll do. Did that shower not have a door? I'm actually, Judy, this is an epidemic. Like, I don't know if it's just like maybe a very specific LA epidemic, but there are so many LA showers and hotels that do not have doors. Yeah, just like have like five inches of glass and then they're like,

the bus at the spray everywhere else. So this one just seemed to be sort of unfinished. Yeah, I just had nothing between. I was just co-worker. Honestly, don't worry, man. I've got plenty of middle class friends moments. I was, the moment in television, Mr. Ripley, where Tom Ripley and Dickie Greenleaf, as played by Matt Damon, Jude Law, are in the boat and everything goes badly, very badly to put it mildly. But right before things go from bad to worse for Dickie Greenleaf,

“when he turns on Tom, he says, who are you? Some third class moot, who are you? Who are you?”

To say anything to me, who are you to tell me anything? This idea of like, when push comes to show people of a certain class, you know, the Dickie Greenleaf's and the Sir Henry mucks of the world, we'll just sort of say, like, remember your place, right? Remember who you're talking to here.

And then your aspiration to be me, you will never be me. This is not an avenue of opportunity for you.

Judy, what are you thinking about? But they're both examples of men saying that right down until the moment they're getting locked in the head with an OR. Yeah. You know, like in the end, what does your class mean? I don't know when anybody can kill you and what happens to Henry at the end of this episode. He reads a handwritten letter about how he's implicated in all these crimes. Where did your class get you? It got you somewhere, but yeah, doesn't get you everywhere. No,

I'm not saying it will protect you, but it's just sort of like the defense, the ultimate defense that these types of people feel like they can put on. And it's fascinating to like watch this, you know, breed of person do that right up until the bitter end and to cling to that safety that

has always been false. And we see Yaz do that too in her own ways and her apparently lower

“class than Henry. I actually thought when he called him middle class, I was like, oh, is that nice?”

Because I don't know if he's even middle class. I don't, you know, he's not within whatever class system we know, but it's true. I guess from what we've understood from his story, it's he's really said that he's come from nothing Whitney. So him being like, I have lots of middle class family. It doesn't have a low class friend. It felt like a dig coming from Kate Harrington. That's for sure. Oh, yes. The way it spilled out of his mouth felt insulting. And I'm glad you brought

it the letter, Jodie, because to me, like writing the letter, like this is literally in my handwriting, explaining all of these crimes that we have committed together or really I have committed, but I'm now assigning to you. It's just like a totally different kind of flex than even batting someone over the head with an or like the display of power, I think from Whitney in saying, here's how the shit you didn't even begin to think to know. And I am putting it on you and bringing you into it,

whether you would like to be or not. Is this a kind of maneuvering that I don't think Henry has ever really been capable of and certainly doesn't seem to know what to do with? Well, it's, I mean, in this weird way that it is with Whitney, like it's intimacy, you know, like it's not, it's not it's intentional that it's handwritten, like this to him, this does seem like a romance or sharing of self. And I don't know if Henry has really been someone who's like been capable of being

known because he doesn't know himself. And then he has this strange man coming in and sort of like forcing all of this intimacy on him, which is to say nothing of the sort of spooned glory whole blow job, like it's an interesting predicament for him to be in as he continues to pull further and further away from his wife. Now I'm wondering if Glory Hole in my bucket should have been the email address you launched for this season. There's a glory hole in my bucket there.

Oh, man. I, um, I just want to, folks, to know if you're listening to this podcast, that means you missed the hand gesture that Jodie just did when she said spooned glory hole moment. It was, it was pretty fantastic. It was actually out of my control, like, of course. I did love that moment, though, Joe, just, I mean, just to really zoom in on the spooning at the glory hole. Oh, please.

shower of like, yeah, there is a degree to which it seems like Whitney definitely just like

wants to fuck Henry and like wants some physical part of him, but also to be like behind him and to be him. And it's like that weird, again, psychosexual line of like, how are you straddling both of these things at once of like wanting to be this person, but also to embody them as they experience whatever pleasure and reason experiencing at the glory hole. Um, pleasure at the glory hole, uh, great band name. Um, I want to be this, if I may, this comment that I saw on Reddit that I

really um loved from about the shower scene. Uh, this person wrote, I can sense when my seven pound cat walks into the room without even seeing her. You mean to tell me a Henry couldn't sense a grown man with a dark ominous homosexual aura, um, which I just like really love that description. And like

I'm crinkly. How does it do this? Oh, yeah. The paper is not going to be subtle. Um, we also

get this, uh, on the point of like sort of Whitney psychology here, we get this moment with Joan on the phone, right? Where Joan is says, um, get a lawyer, kill yourself, whatever's cheaper, which is not quite, sorry, my product is the cleaners along with my hoodie and my funky flip flops, you pretentious dude's bag. But it'll do for a slice. And what maximum Gell has said, told Katy Baker is that he played that moment as like at an actual deep, kind of deep wound for Whitney. Um, this is what he

said he said when he's relationship with Jonah has a lot more tenderness in it than maybe I even intended. This idea that like maximum Gell has been struggling a bit with Whitney as like an unknowable slippery character, where is his actual humanity? Where is his actual vulnerability? Because even

“if you're playing a sociopath, you need to have some sort of like psychological at like access to”

that character. And so the fact that he drilled down on this Jonah exchange, I thought was really

interesting, especially given what we saw Whitney do to Jonah at the beginning of this season, but the idea that like this is someone who's known him longest, saw him not at his origin origin, but closer to his origin story. And so the people that know you can cut you the deepest, sort of, I thought that was like an interesting play from this actor. Well, especially in the moment where we find Whitney, where yeah, he's making calls to Harper to weirdly menacingly sing gloat,

threaten whatever he's doing, but the call to Jonah felt like, who else do I have left a call? Like who do I have, who will take this call that will not see me entirely as this construction that I have put up? Even if it means that Jonah's going to tear me down in this instance, and certainly we know Whitney deserves it, but he is star for intimacy. I mean, so star of that he's watching just like, you know, Henry and the shower that he's looking for at it,

every opportunity he can get it. And the idea that Jonah's the person who's like maybe most capable of offering it is fucking sad and tragic in its own way. Actively in a strip club, I'm sure. Well, I mean, you say you're pretending that's not it. Can you be passively? Can you be passively in a strip club, Jonah? Is that possible? And be a plan to tell you, yes, I do think it. All right,

“um, this is a moment on this podcast where I believe, uh, Jonah and I, as the as an Harper”

of this podcast, that's not our counterparts, let's just pretend. Get to take a, I think a slight victory lap on Rob Mahoney. Um, as the as an Harper love story seems to be emerging in this episode, Jonny, how do you feel about it? Listen, did Harper say to yes, you are devoid of empathy, only know how to act like you have it when you want something? Yes. Is that true? Yes. It's to be known to be loved. Yes. Or in love. It's coming around what we know is that it's coming. And I mean,

yeah, I think Harper was there as an active protection. I think it's interesting when she says it's not personal. And Yasmin says who has ever said that when it's not true. But I do think for Harper, it's not personal. The situation there in has happened because she had personal access, um, and did use yes in many ways to get there. I don't think that she did it intentionally to harm yes. If these two can get ever get on the level that they're not intentionally harming each other,

“but they're also not intentionally not harming each other and could that be a form of love? I think”

they might just make it unstoppable. That really is the sweet spot. I look, I have to admit again. I just clearly don't have a firm enough grasp on female friendship and I apologize to you both for not getting the nuances of two people trying to subtly tear each other down while also propping themselves up. We got a couple emails about this from listeners about the true love story of the show being between Yas and Harper. I relate this one from Meg, who wrote,

um, they are the Yin and Yang masculine Harper and feminine, yeah, as they both want to operate in a male dominated society and be domes themselves, but go about it in opposite ways, felidation, domination, and good outfits. They are a match made in heaven. The opening

find a way to pick apart my stability, where poetry, the bars can be straight from another

“HBO series, but it's not the one you'd expect. It's hacks. Harper quote, it's not personal,”

is Deborah Vance, whereas Yas is able always trying to keep up in a toxic quote friendship.

Yin and Yang, yeah, as was right there. Like, we don't have to Yang it, I don't think. Listen, Rob, just because you were wrong about this doesn't mean you can't take apart our listener's email. Totally not gonna scrape it back this way. I love the mentioning of the clothes, because I really love the, the basically the opening scene of the episode when Harper comes out of the elevator, and they both look there in slacks, each kind of a, you know, Harper's in a

cooler pant, um, Yasman is in like a really just sort of like officials, a woman's slack. They look like adults. They look like they're not wearing costumes anymore, and they almost look like their actor selves. You could imagine people wearing these clothes, and you think back to

season one, and how they were sort of cusplaying, being, you know, business women in finance,

“and how far they've come. But also not come very far at all in many ways, but to”

see them, that I, I loved that, that just sort of like meeting of the minds so that they could sit down and tear each other's shreds. Um, our listener BJ also wrote something somewhere or said about the two of them saying, working for the man and some voting and subverting him as opposed to being the man with or without shoulder pads, and I just thought that that was just like really interesting, um, just watching these two on their parallel, but occasionally crisscrossing

path after power, but also just sort of autonomy, the way in which they're both fleeing or running towards these damage relationships with their parents, and, and what that means to define themselves on the other side of it. And the fact that, um, if this is Eric's last episode, Jodie shared with us an American top model meme of like the the promo photo from, I think it was season 2, yeah, season 2, where it's like Yaz and Harper and then all these men behind them, and now

they are all gone, Rishi gone, theoretically Eric gone, Rob gone, Gus gone, et cetera, et cetera, and it's just like, and then there were two, and it's Harper and Yaz, and, and where do we go from here? Here's one sociopath left in front of me. You mentioned the five pieces of the conference. I want to talk about the conference, but Kenlon compared it to a she, he says, it makes me think of those, you know, those she's that you put a knife in, and then when you pull it out, the knife gets sharp,

Malik called it armor, like this is this is what this outfit is at the conference. Rob, what did you

think of Harper's presentation? I was a little mixed on this. I think I always have a hard time with

“these sorts of presentations in shows, or like big moments where you have to stand up and do a”

performance, where it's like, what exactly am I supposed to take away from this, and what is the tonality in the room? Because to me, this would seem like as a purely opportunistic thing for anyone who's sitting there. It's like, how, for one, the idea that Harper's Stern walks into this room, and apparently needs no introduction. How famous is Harper? That's all like some easy writing, because I was like, no, no, meaning like, maybe I guess I mean lazy writing. Like, she does need

an introduction, actually, because she's been up to some stuff lately, like her reputation is not good right now. Her shorts are not working. Like, she had to re-shuffle her deck. She's moved around a lot. I could see why she would be there as a mover in a shaker, but I feel like she does need an introduction. I think so too. Well, she's in, she's in Forbes 30 and a 30, right? Like, sure. That's, and I was just an internal pipe line. In terms of, like, with this actually

happen, according to Bloomberg recap, this is a very common practice among shortsellers, too. There is, like, one, Jim Channos is a regular on the conference circuit, like using these conference platforms to get their positions out there, because it is about narrative, right? It's about causing everyone to doubt something. And so these are, this is a platform in which you can do that. Totally. We did get any more for our listener,

Carly, who's in. I find myself unable to sleep thinking about Harper's 10, quote, "tender to go to be true deck." This is an explosive deck with information I absolutely do not understand however. What I do understand is that the deck, with a deck, this insane, you got to have some more visual flair. So, Jodie, would you care to comment on the visuals that accompanied Harper's presentation here? I did notice that it was just a lot of words and bullet points. Yeah. It was like,

while the people in this room know these words, but I, nope, there were a few photos. She had them holding the big check in Ghana. She did. That photo was up there. You know, not enough text on that one. That one might have any of that. That was awesome. So, that was really the photo

running like a really skeleton crew. So, they don't have any one that you can like outsource the

the font choice to. All of this seems totally plausible to me. In terms of her getting up there and baking that presentation, I guess I'm just wondering why anyone in the room would choose to believe it. Like why someone given Harper and as we talk about Eric's motivations later in this episode to express their skepticism for financial gain, not saying they're wrong because they're clearly right about tender in the end game. But like why is anyone taking note of that in a way

where they would take her like just that face value? It just reminds me of when Henry got up, you know, in front of the crowd to sell tender. And it was again sort of a like, if your heart is pure moment, like if you're if you're really telling the truth this time, then people will believe you. And it's like when Henry was giving that speech, you knew there from the moment he started looking at a teleprompter, you knew there was going to be a

moment where he cut away and didn't look at the teleprompter anymore and he spoke from his heart. Yeah, it's an exactly the same here with Harper. She's not speaking from her heart, but she is telling the truth. And then it happens again with Eric, who's like, I'm going to tell you the truth. Yes, I am just a money grubbing fund guy. That's, but in telling you that I'm not telling you something else. I'm not saying that this is for the greater good. I'm not saying it's anything

more than it is. It's a way for me to make money. It might be a way for you to make money. And

“you should but it's just sales. Yeah. Why does anyone believe anything? I mean, I feel like we've”

seen Harper do this in more, sort of, chaotic, edited, maniacally chewing gum like cookie behavior in previous seasons. One at the very last minute, she gets on a call with someone and she just convinces them to do exactly what she needs them to do the save the day. So even if you're not convinced by the unimaginative deck that she put up here at the conference, this is a known power. Like the show has established that this is something that Harper can do. It was like leave a story

that people will buy into causing them to put their money where she wants them to put their money. It's interesting, though, because often she's done that with a certain amount of panic and

like the timeline. And I've always found this concept of Harper being a salesperson interesting.

I think you see that in Eric. You see the ways that he is charming in a room. Harper's not your classic kind of charming. She can be convincing, but she is not charismatic necessarily.

“And then I think that what I enjoyed watching in this deck presentation was the ways that she's”

grown in that way. And I thought it was a really good performance by Mahala where it wasn't overly done. It's still seemed like she was reading her cards. It's still seemed like it was somewhat rehearsed. Like it did not seem perfect, but it did seem like Harper after years of doing this. And being someone who's gotten in front of rooms now, Eric brings it up. Like don't be fit like you did the last time. Years ago, and it is kind of like, yeah, it's seen her do a lot of

like very, she's like, that was a tough day to go. Yeah, I'm like, I'm going to go. And she did. She did have it. So it was it was interesting to see her grow in that way, especially now that she is the soul hit. Stoy-an-el-edict? Safe. Medviso Stoy-a. Yet's constant those tests.

Ed of her firms. Yeah, what could go wrong? The rest of what I have here in my notes is Eric Suntrick. Is there anything else you guys want to make sure we talk about in terms of, yes, Harper, Henry, Whitney?

Yeah, can we circle back to the Whitney Henry stuff for a second? Of course.

“I think we kind of talked through what we think is what Whitney is after, right?”

Like some semblance of wanting Henry wanting to be Henry all that. Why do we think Henry is so receptive to Whitney kind of creeping on him, wanting to be around him, wanting to be in his orbit? Like, is it just vanity? Is it intimacy? Is it flattery? Like, what do you guys think is in it for Henry at this point? To me, it comes back to the moment that Jody did a really good job of underlining before the presentation when Whitney is literally

looming over Henry but making him feel big, not small, right? And the way that Yaz and her shoes at the party was looming over him and he just felt so minuscule compared to her. And so as much as

running him because he cannot be trusted. And so I don't, I don't begrudge her trying to run him.

But the way in which she's running him is making him feel small and significant ulcerist of like that. And Whitney is diabolical enough to know that he needs to to flatter and inflate

“Henry. That's my take on it. What do you think Jody? Well, and I think that, and I felt that”

in the moment you're referencing back to where he hovers over him in the room, I felt it in this episode, that what Whitney needs from Henry is precisely what Henry has. And it's kind of all that he has. And this is a person who is very insecure about his capabilities about what he

offers to the world. And for Whitney, all he wants is what Henry and Nately offers, which is his

place in the world, which is his class, which is his, you know, his breeding. Yazman wants much more than that. And I, I really, I assume this language, this parallel language was intentional, but another moment where Whitney is a classic arm move sort of rewarding over, not rewarding, but just physically over. Yeah. Henry, at the glory hole in what does he say to him, you're worth everything. And it reminded me of the proposed sort of marriage agreement between Henry and Yaz, where she

says, Henry, I deserve everything. Right. And the difference in those, in those pronouns and what these

“two people are offering him how they're making him feel. I think you do see how Whitney is”

compelling to him for like just the worst reasons. But then also to me, you know, Rob, you pointed

out your most talented Mr. Ripley moment. I think mine was. So to me, not my moment. That was their moment. And you love that, and you love, and you're bringing for those two crazy girls. And you love a classic male French. I really love for them. You're like male friendship is worth rooting for. This is what I'm trying to do. I wanted you to reflect back, male friendship to me. When they are, you know, sitting by the water and Henry almost reveals that he knows a little

something. He does not seem to do it with intention. I think the way he says I have a lot of middle-class friends is with intention. But the way that he's like, I don't know if that's true about your mother. Everything you say sounds like it comes from a sad book. And Whitney looks really taken aback by that. But Henry doesn't. And it feels very Ripley-esque in that, like, Henry doesn't know he's signing his own death certificate. He doesn't. He doesn't know that by knowing Whitney,

by discovering something about him, he has done the wrong thing. You're telling me that post-glory hole nut clarity comes at a cost? Just might. Still got to keep that wall up. Literally. All right, are we ready to talk about Eric? Please. Here's something that read it figured out last week, which is that the young woman that Eric has his assicnation with, just making it as delicate as I can in the previous episode that gets him

paralyzes him. This information this episode is likely the little cousin that Haley is talking about. We see that actress in episode one of this season when Haley's like out drinking with friends this young woman is right there with her. The math off the passport that Eric looks at is 14. The, you know, the fact that this girl is drinking in the bar with Haley does that mean she's actually 16, which is legal drinking age or just has a fake ID or, you know,

“et cetera, et cetera, who knows? Honestly at the end of the day, as far as the shadowy”

Russian compiler concerned, it doesn't seem to matter whether or not this, you know, and 16 is still under agent disgusting and it's all disgusting. But like as we identified at the time, we were like the dynamics here are so fucking awesome fact that he went from his wife and his daughter sleeping in the hotel room directly to like, you know, make me feel big, like, sort of with this girl was already really scheming us out. This added layer of like issue, issue, not under age,

immaterial to what happens next. Eric certainly seems surprised by it. Is that your interpretation or do you feel like he's just surprised? Like do you think that Eric knew she was under age or might have been under age or is your interpretation of his reaction? Oh, fuck, someone has entraped me.

thought I agree that that young woman was under age while knowing that she seemed very young and they also seems to have before they met up in that room have been in touch, you know, like

“she there had been, you know, some sort of initial contact. I think the way that the camera, you know,”

slides over to the photo at the passport to reveal the year would suggest that was not something he was expecting. Yeah, he also didn't ask too many questions. I don't think I think it's one of those things were like, look, regardless of what he thought her age was, she looks very young. Right.

And I think that's part of what was so distressing about it in the first place is this idea of like,

again, leaving his daughter as you said, Joe asleep in the room to go consort with somebody who's like, Ed minimum looks a similar age to his daughter is deeply upsetting for a variety of reasons. And then so in this moment, yes, he's being caught in an incredibly compromising position. He's, I'm sure freaked out as the two of you are saying by this revelation of this woman's age. And he's, I mean, I think he's sorting through the repercussions for him with his family, which is already quite fragile

in his children who barely, like, even when they do want to acknowledge their love, he can't look up from his phone in this moment to acknowledge his daughter. Yeah, not for nothing. He is abandoning his daughter again. Yeah. He wanted you to deal with the repercussions of his own behavior. Yeah, it's, look, it's not ideal for anything. And so there's like the personal, there's the financial,

“there's everything it means for him and Harper and their relationship. I think it's just like”

a wave of shit that's hitting Eric in this moment in terms of being, like facing the consequences of his own actions. Once again, in that 2023 New Yorker article about the Wirecard investigation, this is excited by Katie Baker and her recap, there was a trader involved in this scandal, Nick Gold, who picked up, quote, the hottest girl you've ever seen when he was out in New York City one night, only later to receive Blackmail footage of their dalliance and his email,

quote, the worst part was that I had my socks all the way up. Gold told the New Yorker and you don't want to be seen fucking with white socks up at my age. So that's just like a once again, great color of the video and not to do it. And don't do it. Take them off. Here's my kennel and said, I think this isn't an indie wire piece where they talked to the creators and to to kind about the character. He kind of just like out here, like citing Samuel Johnson and Arthur Miller

and all the stuff about his character, right? But, quote, he, quote, he who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man is a quote that he brought about Eric, he who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man. And I think something that Ken said about coming back this season, he was like, I sort of feel like we arced out my character last season. So what is there left to do with Eric this season? And something that he and the creators talked about is like,

what can we do that is interesting with Eric as it relates to Harper and as it relates to the rest of the story we need to tell. Like, especially if this is his last episode, they're like, we're bringing you back not for the full season. Yeah. But to really sort of haunt a hotel room in a bathrobe and then to sort of leave. Also, something that he said in both this Indewire piece and

of UltraPeace is basically he filmed a ton more for this season with his daughter and also in the

UltraPeace, they released revealed that there was a scene with the ghost of Adler, the colleague and friend that he screwed over last season who died at the end of last season. They had like had another ghost. Another ghost. Chris Ryan was trying to talking to me and I was like, maybe there's like a

“one ghost per season cap that we do. Maybe that's why they cut it. I kind of got for zero personally,”

but he's their own ton of Eric stuff this season essentially. And maybe most crucially for our purposes here, right before we see him walking down that road forever, which we'll we'll talk about a little bit. He has a seed where his daughter shows up with a nose ring, which reminds him of Harper and he flips out at her and yells at her about having the nose ring and his wife is in that scene and he just like yells at everyone and then he's like, I need to go get cigarettes. So that's

what he's like he's walking out the road these end of the episode is very disorienting because you're like, where is this? What is this true line street and what is he doing? But I guess it's like him walking down the street that's outside that house that we've seen him in in previous seasons here in the UK. So that's what that road is. But so he's he's leaving to get cigarettes the

classic like and then dad never came back sort of move. But I don't know, Jody, what do you make

of all of that that that was shot and cut? Did we need it? Do you miss it? How do you feel about it? I don't think that we needed the the scene of him at home and I it I was a little bit like

where he used to live and not wherever he what off where he was as a bachelor before he I mean, I hope his wife doesn't take him back. But besides that I yeah, I found the scene with Harper heartbreaking. I thought that Ken's performance with his breaking voice was so good and I loved

“those final lines where he says I don't want you to remember me that way and she signs the”

documents and says I will always remember you this way and it was heartbreaking in the moment but my

sappy self who also holds on to hope for these two is that memories can change and more and she says it with disgust in this moment. I will always remember you this way and you know what you what you're doing to me right now but later she might remember him this way and see it differently. It's the kind of grace that you can have for your parents once you become an adult. Yes. Even as you say like everything you said about the passage of time, Jodi, I find to be very true. I think I just

have like a much more pessimistic view of Harper as a character and as a person that she'll never grow. Well, I mean she showed us she will grow in very very small and very particular and ultimately kind of professional ways but maybe not in any personal ones and so there is a part of me in that moment

that as she's saying I will always remember you this way. It's like I wonder how much of that is

“maybe not a mystery by Eric and maybe that's what makes it so painful for him because he's”

making this choice to step away from the company, step away from Harper. The thing that he is professed to kind of want more than anything else almost which is this relationship with her but to Harper, him being I'm going to say this in terms that I think she would put it not that I would put it being a coward in this moment and stepping away from the company and away from their partnership and abandoning her and I'm sure tapping into everything she feels in terms of a lot of relationships

in her life as opposed to being whatever you would classify a person who is subject to the video being released of him in this underage girl. I think there's a part of Harper that would almost

respect the cowardice less. Does that make sense? Well first of all, I think you and I have different

clearly but for sure and that's okay but like I think that I think it will depend on whether or not

“the full information is ever revealed to her. She finds out sort of like why he left surely that”

would change her point of view. The fact that he fired her in a previous season to sort of save her from his point of view like he got her out of peer point because he thought that was what was best for her and then he does this here because he thinks it's what is best for her because he can't save himself. There's no way to save himself at this point. I don't know but you guys but I was on Tenderhooks for the in the CNN appearance. I was like is he about to you know clearly

the blackmail directive is go on CNN or you know like is go on there and take everything back. And back down and and you know change your position and all the sorts of like that. And I was like is he going to do that to her? Is she going to have to watch him on television when he is said I'll do it. I'll do this. You say home I'll do it. I was so nervous about that and so the fact that he held fast can describe it as his quote his last battle where

all his old quote weaponry comes out and also the in the writer's room they compared it to they called it Eric's quote eight mile scene. A reference to M&M's be rabbit winning the climatic rap battle by the name of the opponent with the first. I know everything he's about to say against me. I am white. I am a fucking bum. I do live in a trailer with my mom. Like that this was Eric just going out there and saying like fuck you. I'm going to do this while also then

protecting Harper on his way at the door. Is Eric a character to be admired? No and I don't think anyone on the show thinks so and I don't think can long think so. But the way that they talk about this moment, this idea, this is where Arthur Miller comes in, this idea of the tragic character is a character who understands themselves too late. And the fact that Eric even inside of this season he was like kind of aspiring to change to be a better dad to connect with Harper. And something

that the writer's on the show said is like that of course means he's set up for the biggest fall. The fact that he's actually like thinking maybe self-deluding but like and definitely self-deluding in many ways. But sort of like taking a swing at being a better guy. And that is just an absolutely respiratory disaster inside of the world that industry is presenting for us here. But I just I do

a potential future for Harper to understand what Eric does here. But I think we'll require her to know

all of the information and I don't know whether or not that will actually ever come out if there's a great sort of like Whitney files leak or not. I don't know. What do you think, Jodie? I assume that at some point she would be able to see it as protection. But I think that Eric not only understands himself too late. He also understands Harper too late or not ever in that she does not want his

“protection. She wants his partnership and and really always has. And so he does the best thing”

he can do, which is not betray her, which is kind of his other choice. And I agree when he went on CNN, I was like, we got another one coming. These two have been betraying each other back and forth.

And this is this season is kind of the first time we've seen them really commit to what they

can be together. And it is ruined by, you know, his human behavior. And he sees it as protection. And if she is able, ever able and her life to see that protection as good instead of as belittling or frustrating, then that could work. But probably not. On to yes. Maybe it is on to yes. I think one reason that CNN seen just like drops like a bomb to is yes, you have all of the Eric Harper stuff playing in the background. And I was with you, Jill, like the

tension in that moment of like what is Eric going to do when cornered in this particular way. We know him to be really resourceful, really ferocious when he needs to be. But like also someone who kind of knows when to fold the hand, like at least us even at his own personal cost and some points in previous seasons, I thought playing him opposite Whitney and kind of putting his foot down and like refusing to be leveraged in the way that Whitney has clearly been leveraged, right? Like he

is guilty of a great many things. As you said, a lot of which are horrible. But he's just like not

“willing to participate in this kind of blackmail extortion machine in a way that I think one of my”

larger questions about Whitney all season has been like, yes, he's doing all of this. Yes, he's manipulating, he's committing fraud. He's doing all this, but to what end? Like what is he ultimately

hope to gain? Is it just like move things around long enough that he can become rich and powerful

and important in the way that he hopes to? I thought some of what this episode illuminated about Whitney was like, they're kind of is not a lot of endgame for someone like him and it makes more sense what he's been doing when you consider him as an asset who's been moved around the board by, you know, Russian influence as opposed to a con man who's making all these calculated decisions for himself and Eric just saying like absolutely not like I'm going to I'm going to go off into

the sunset and accept whatever come up inside have as opposed to being a part of all this is yes, it does not make him a good person, but it definitely makes him distinctly a different kind of one than whatever Whitney is. Well, what was the quote about the beast when you remove what the pain of a man he who makes a beast when self gets rid of the pain of being a man and there's also what Conrad case that about that was we want to make good on that quote which is

quote what is he and his most beastly indulging in that really vicious side of his id.

“So that's what you let the id out kill the man let the id be born.”

Judy, what do you make of of Eric calling Harper Harpoon instead of Harps Accord inside of the episode? I was stunned. I assumed that he did it because it is a much more aggressive form of nickname than a Twinkley Little Harps Accord and she had just you know gone out and slayed the dragon presumably but I was sad that we won't get more of it. Is this a movement from an instrument to be played to a weapon a weapon to be wielded or or like a self launching Harpoon or something like that? I don't

know. I think it's just dad stuff. Hashtag dad stuff? Well I think that stuff. Another thing that making Conrad said about Eric's exit here is they don't want people at home to be comparing it to Gus's exit or Rob's exit this moment of these characters. It's like those characters escaped before the worst possible thing could happen to them and they went off to Silicon Valley land a plenty I guess and just sort of are making their own way

and have escaped the machine. This is not a brighter future for Eric. This is a defeat. I don't think that we interpreted that way but like I think they're like we've we've sent characters often very specific ways and this is not the same as that. This is something we want to do something different here. Rob what do you think about? I think the only silver lining to him lasting this long in the game coming back to it from the golf course is what he expresses to Harper in this idea that he has

go off into the sunset with but there's nothing on the other side of it. Like this is the end of

Eric's story in a lot of ways and as far as him arcing out it makes a ton of sense like he is an accessory to Harper's framing of this part of the story in so many ways narratively this season. There's not a lot of room for that character to go. There's not a lot for him to do other than

“to be extorted and so this feels sadly like a natural endpoint and with that I think the end”

point of a certain version of industry. Like clearly this is a show that could continue on as he has in Harper just like spiral around each other into the abyss but without Eric as being a counterbalancing part of it that show just looks and feels very different. Yeah I don't know what the show looks like without Eric. I do find him very stabilizing and foundational. I don't know if like Jesse Bloom coming back takes you know some of that place but in thinking about comparing it

to the Gus and Rob exits I before we log off I was wanting to circle back to the moment on the phone when Harper brings back up how chilled she was by Whitney talking about funerals in such a practical way because that was something he talked about on the pod. I think not knowing how she received that and I think I was dead as wrong and how I thought she received it. Of course we don't know precisely how she received it but she is reciting it back this way to say that she got a chill

to hear him talk about them so practically and she says funerals have a function it's for ritualistic grieving it's a human need to deal with that shit. Of course the immediate reveal their afters that she did not go to her mother's funeral and does perhaps not have that human need to deal with that shit but she does but when I think about these characters who have exited it does feel like Rob and Gus kind of got these funerals they got these exits so we grieved them the characters

grieved them in a you know ritualistic and fundamental way and the way that Eric is exiting is certain and it's like going missing instead of dying you know you do you wonder what you've lost and if you've really lost it and I think that that will that will be a wound for Harper and you know I mean interestingly yeah for the show and it's a wound they've created so so I wonder how they'll tend to it but it is startling to think about what even as he declares on his

exit to kind of like twin the funeral conversation they like he doesn't want a funeral for his exit that he doesn't want any of the pop in circumstance. I was looking for a visual cop for this like long walk he takes at the end of the episode because something of the creators have been doing all season is sort of referencing classic film scenarios or music do you as many thoughts on this

cover of rainman was the first thing that came to mind for me you know just although it's a solo

journey in this case but the long walk on the tree line street can I tell you Rob that I texted the cover of rainman to see our CR texts me back the right and for the right answer but I definitely texted that is the answer we would have got remember at the end of of a plurvis or no no severance we're like what is this remind people of and then everyone asked chat GPT and sent us the wrong answer adjustment bureau I believe was the answer that chat GPT provided um I sent the

rainman thank to Chris Chris sent me he's like wait a second and then Chris sent me back the right answer which is the final shot of the third man a 1949 film noir classic where there is a so Erick's

“walk is it's 54 seconds of 10 long walking while both sides now plays that's what we get at the end of”

this episode and I love the way um he's you know he's walking down the exact middle of the road and can long it's talked about how they did that take over and over again they just made a walk forever and then do it again and do it again um I love the way he's framed inside of the closing credit so like there's that incredible frameworks like his credit is you know is uh transpoise over him but also as the sort of credit split in classic credit style he's like in the middle of the

words and it's just still just Erick walking which I think looks amazing at the end of the third

man there is a very famous like the final shot is a long walk of a woman walking for like a full minute towards camera towards Joseph Cotton's character and then she's walks right past him and it's a very it was a very contentious ending at the time the director really fought for it I believe were some wells fought for it and and all the studios at the time were like hey can't the guy get the girl like shouldn't we have a happy ending here at the end of the third man

and they're like that's not the story we're trying to tell. Well the problem here is Erick did

“get the girl that's why we got into this mess like he's got a gross that's what I'm saying but like”

this idea of yeah like the the long lonely walk um the desolate ending the making us as an audience

cite that as a direct um inspot but I would never uh doubt Chris Ryan on this front and I

“think he'd write about it. Camlin's next project he's doing a peacock show called Superfakes”

with Lucy Lou okay which quote follows a small-time Chinatown luxury counterfeit dealer who enters a dangerous black market underworld to fund a life of suburban respectability for her family so Lucy Lou is the star and he stars as her husband um but the creators of this show in interviews are saying never say never about Erick coming back they don't want to like completely close the door on that um I I kind of like this is an ending for him um I don't know that a peacock show is where

I want um tend to go next but listen I would never begrudge someone getting their um their paycheck some good work over their joe they I know you watch the creator they you know I'm obsessed with the traders absolutely but like peacock shows I feel like more often than not they're scripted stuff can feel like it doesn't exist like this ponies exist as a show I'm not sure I just want him to continue to be able to work uh on a show that people are gonna like watch an

admire because I just think he's so tremendous on the show has been amazing like his entire career

and I just want him to continue to have that going forward so this is such a phenomenal role for him too

“and I think what makes it hard the idea of bringing him back in some subsequent episode is not just”

that we would lose this incredible goodbye we got here it's that Eric as a character and the power house that Kinlon puts into him is such like it rocks the show off its axis when he shows up on screen and so the idea that you're just gonna have him for like a one-off I think is really hard to like calibrate like how much are you gonna have him in the episode how much can he disrupt and then just disappear again like he's he's not an easy force to just like drop into the episode because he's

honestly like so compelling on screen in the show well and with Harper as are you know sort of fundamental anchor these two can't be acquaintances they can't you know they can't you know they can't

you'll never be friends past in town and see each other they it is all in or all out right

um and he he took himself out of the equation we get a brief Jennifer Bevin appearance in this episode in like a real pink power suit is that the power suit before the fall or before the rise it seems like she is positioned for something she's been kind of like on the climb all season but her growing prominence as we're also dealing with an increasingly expansive Russian confirmat plot makes me like a little nervous about the fate of that character and what she actually is or would

be involved in is that is that crazy to say I mean maybe she is what they're ultimately trying to get

“at I think that is the I think that's what I found a little challenging about the Russian cabal episode”

it is kind of what are we suggesting here like is this all some longer game towards something else and god when are we gonna find it out you know I I found that concept of like this continuing to grow larger and larger a little overwhelming for my itty bitty little show industry um however I have all the faith that they could pull it off but yes if like this is entering into manipulating foreign governments um we'll see I could not speak to the suit but that's fair

I do think that's a fair concern about the show though like within this episode I found the reveal of who Whitney has been all along and ferdinand and like all of this to be like really compelling like a really nice twist that I didn't see coming and really disoriented me in a pleasant way but it does create that kind of plot creep that you're looting to Jody where it's like how do we if this is the plot of season four for season five it would be really

difficult to then just like oh well let's just go back to our little like personal traumas and on the finance floor you know like it's it's hard to put that back in the box well that's already dead though like that died at the end of last season yeah like we we like collapse peer point and so we are just signal that we're on to like a different kind of show and I've been wondering like I mentioned it being the season we get like a small glimpse of um the after I had a whole craft like

on a recoil craft on the on the floor a politician and I'm like how like and we haven't seen them again and so I don't know if they're like seeding him for next season or something like that but like that's too big of an actor to just be like randomly here as a minister inside of this um or whatever his real sorry politician inside of this uh season so like art you know is this the sort of like um money fin text are we are we heading towards something like the wire we're like this

right so I think that's like what kind of overwhelms me is um and for no reason I'm just giving myself anxiety why not um is that something that we love about industry we've talked about a lot is that it burns through plot components you know and the idea of burning through plot when the stakes are much higher the story is much bigger it's like okay well they're going to be in like fast and furious territory soon yeah we're going to see if the plot rate is as fast when the

stakes are even are are so high I would be an original I would be curious if like if you know

“and something that that making chronic have said I believe in interviews is like um they're like”

well we never said witch industry right we thought industry was pure point was finance but

now they're like but also fintech but also politics like it's all but also space mining you know but also space but like you've always space if the fifth season is a final season which no one has said it is and no one has even said that they're definitely doing a fifth season but if the fifth season is a final season which feels like a nice like sort of round number for this kind of HBO show these days and that is like sort of their like biggest halls of power season um I can

see them nailing that but I agree with you I don't know where we go from there right like if if we're going to you know am I five or wherever we're freaking going in in season five I don't I don't know it except for space where we go from there so I want Jesse Bloom back I think is where I land in terms of growing this world and already having a character who exists who is like another you

“know is like a musk like character I want I I think I want I think I want to back”

did you plus I'm sure would love to to hear it um needle drop corner really quickly 18 minutes into this episode is when the the industry title card drops like a real flex to do it that that late in the episode it drops to silence by delirium featuring um Sarah McLaughlin we got to we got an email from Ethan Ethan was like you know with all my respect to all of your needle drop corners that you've been doing you've been really neglecting like the rave classics that

this this season has been uh giving us and he was like delirium featuring Sarah McLaughlin is uh this this track silence is like an old timer a really you had to be there but like that this was like

an iconic rave trap rave track drop they never used a rave in madmen so I don't know how to relate

to it um but I'll tell you what they did use in madmen which is both sides now by Judy Collins which plays over Eric's exit everybody's gonna play with me very famously at the end of uh I believe it's season six of madmen wind on draper takes Sally and Bobby and Jean to go see the

“house where he grew up in and he's like you know so if you want to look at young karen and chip gun”

feel weird about yourself uh you can go watch the season six finale of uh madmen but where he sort of reveals a truth about himself uh you know in the same episode I guess where we see Whitney's Lithuania passport or hear him breath menacing um Whitney Houston I don't know but actually by number one sort of musical moment is Henry Muck singing Gilbert and Sullivan each of them you are first of all you would the shower yes say Rob it's also used on west wing

did you not feel your west wing sort of like fandom rise when you heard it unfortunately very famously this at least makes more sense in world Aaron Soork and assumes that everyone knows the encyclopedic book and lyrics of every Gilbert and Sullivan play this seems like something Henry would know I liked so shout out the lamplighters which is this um theater company in San Francisco where I saw all of the Gilbert and Sullivan growing up but like I believe that Henry Muck was

in a production of the HMS pit of four at school uh you know where you're allowed to be a home well or nowhere else um but this is he's singing he is an Englishman for himself said it is

greatly to his credit that he is an Englishman like this is just an incredible like

so upper class bullshit what does it mean to be an Englishman what is it that uh this is what this is what Whitney was cosplaying as when he went to go visit Henry uh in in episode two when he shows up in his like hounds tooth and his like jawed person essentially like this is like and Henry's just like I'm born to a baby and you can't have it it just is I got it even when I'm in member they see it all the way about her he is an Englishman I just loved it just a few things

are up up uh check-ups whiteboard quabana is is asked to put some numbers on a whiteboard and here's

yeah then when I saw this whiteboard because I don't think you bring this whiteboard out if you're

“not gonna like put a bunch of zeros on it by the end of the season any any thoughts or feelings about”

that whiteboards are for winners I like this perspective another new email um Henry has a tender hoodie to go with his looming t-shirt how do you feel about all the merch that Henry uh is acquiring in his journey through life um reminds me of a lot of Bay Area residents I know go you know just you just accumulate this stuff you don't even intend to it just all of a sudden here's a coffee mug here's a tote bag he's such a nerd the way has looked shifts from when he is wearing you know

his fineries or a suit or whatever to win he is wearing like a cotton it polo or a hoodie he does he

he does he looks so different I mean I mean yeah we pretty under discussed his full relapse in in oh

this episode um that's about to grow again speak in that journey actually this this last this last point is for you and you alone thanks stay out of it Rob get out of it Rob I'm just gonna leave this is joddy territory I believe we learned the beginning of the season that in the pre-nuptial agreement there is an infidelity clause mm-hmm how do you feel about the fact that Henry has just barreled through the tape of the infidelity clause and the pre-nupt is this something that

“yes can the weaponize going forward my mind did immediately go to the pre-nupt because that's how”

I be thinking and I wondered if do we know for sure that the infidelity clause goes in both directions

oh do you think it's just for her I thought I thought the language was and he should anyone I thought

probably um well there's also wasn't she threatening like based on his drug use right there was some way to invoke that was what she alluded to in a previous episode and clearly he's like way way down the spiral on that one right I think potentially you know we also haven't talked about that she and Haley are sort of linking up in some partnership towards the end of the episode and that if she really wants out of this marriage she has some things that she can weaponize

and the could weaponize in the reveal that uh that Whitney has been recording all of these things and using his assistance and um recorded the three some between Yaz and Henry and it's like I don't know what that would do to anyone but it is incredibly unsettling um although if we're talking about Haley I do want to point out probably my favorite line of the episode when she is departing the room from Whitney and says he says I'm not giving you a dime and she says then live with

the consequences of your actions you fucking try hard loser yeah very good stuff very good stuff I'm putting that one in my back pocket problem so sorry would you like to weigh in more in the arena this is an equal opportunity podcast and I I want you to feel like I mean that scene was shocking I mean it was quick just to watch those naked bodies yeah kind of like come out of the woodwork because we yeah what he I mean Henry's kind of had it together for a while

I mean as Henry's lawyer um yeah I'm just I'm just reviewing the paperwork over here seeing you're gonna protect a man for one no one can confirm who was on the other side of that glory whole if it was even a person you know like who's to say what happened there um and I'm saying I mean he was painting those gals in the room we don't know if you're talking on his

“if you'll consult sub clause B I think if there's two other people they cancel out right is that how”

that works the sharpest legal mind that money has to offer Rob Mahoney all right so that is this jam packed episode of industry anything else you guys want to talk about that we haven't touched one I would like for everyone to say on the way out whether they think that is Whitney's real or fake passport hmm I like the idea of being real I as do I I think Whitney is a construction and that's because I do want to dance with somebody

Jody you know for the sake of having a ball game I'll say that it's fake okay I bought the photo I was like yeah I really that looks real so I did kind of think it was real but yeah I'm going to say it's fake I'm going to say how to don't deck with this pile was cash was there yeah there's probably like a duffel bag or under a floorboard somewhere full of past sports but did there was a like a beard in that photo right yeah do you think we get to see a fake beard before season's over

I bet his prosthetic work is great one can only help I bet his old age makeup is excellent if we are going to do the Americans let's do it right let's get some really really patchy wigs going on let's get some strange beards let's just go go right into it and he's some large

in New York Rob Mahoney in his home and Kai Grady here in the studio and Justin sales wherever

“he may be and we'll be back next week with more industry you've got also on this video we've got”

Katie Richen I did the first three episodes of love story and Rob and I'll be on going forever

for the rest of the year with a pit feels like probably and you can email us especially tv it's

“Spotify dot com you can find us on the socials Rob what is that what is our social handle”

it's from siege tv pod on Instagram on TikTok on I don't know where it is that Whitney's

finding his drugs you can probably find us on there too the darkwood the dark one um and of course harpscored strap on at jmail.com thank you so much we'll see you soon bye