'Love Story' Episodes 1-3: American Royal-Tea

- Hello, welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast speed. I'm Joe de Robison joining me today. It's Katie Rick! - Yay! - Katie Riches, a longtime pal of mine.

My first and best ever editor of "Anity Fair"

and just the greatest person. Thank you for being here. - I love recording podcasts with you, and for all the amount of time we spent talking to each other into microphones is so rarely been in person.

Like, what a thrill. - I feel like twice ever. - We yesterday. Yesterday, another big thing. But then in a hotel room after the awesome--

- And in 2020. - Yeah, February 2020, and then after that, the force was too great. They had to separate us in a whole pandemic happen. So here we go, we're making up for last time.

But we are very, very few G's. And we are here to cover love story, the FX series, that was once called American Love Story. Now, just called Love Story.

“- I think it's a good choice, I don't know.”

- We think. - Like, to distance it from the American blank, a big French story, it gives you something a little bit, right? - It's interesting to me.

We're going to talk with the first three episodes

'cause they dropped us like a little mini binge drop. So we're not going to dive deep into anything. We're not going to delve into details. We're just taking like a big picture look at this show. - Yeah.

- As I guess, a kind of Valentine's Day special, the Pressy TV podcast, we're here to talk about Love Story. So if you haven't watched the first three episodes, go watch them and then watch her or listen to this podcast. And then also, I will just say,

Blink, it's boiler warning for history, the '90s. - It happened, we might talk about it. So that is the plan today on the Prestige feed. First, I'm going to ask you this question. Before we into the show in general,

what is your memory? You're just like a couple years younger than I am, but we were like alive and awake and active in the '90s. - Yeah. - What is your memory of JFK Jr and Carolyn Besett?

Like, what did you remember? - I remember when they were playing crash. I was at the beach with my friends. Like, that was the news is the same, maybe the same week is with Stuck99.

If you can picture that, I'm like those being the headlines coming out. - Right. - Like, just at the age, we started paying attention to the news in that way.

And I'm sure I knew who he was, because that news was relevant. But I bet I knew nothing about Carolyn. Like, I was not like a fashiony kind of teenager. I wouldn't have been reading the New York Post, obviously.

I wasn't anywhere in the New York area. So I don't think I had any awareness of how that celebrity worked.

“I think that probably came around the time”

working of Andy Fair, editing fashion stories, like knowing her wedding dress is iconic, that kind of thing. And like absorbing more Kennedy lore as I got older. But yeah, that period of New York early 90s, I know mostly through like other people's stories,

not this one. - My only memory of them is the wedding, like the wedding photos, her iconic dress. They got married in like a barn somewhere. - No, they had a church.

- A church. - African-American church? - I think if they did that now, we would be like, "Guess, what's wedding?" - Yeah, what's going on here.

- And so the photo of them leaving that church, that looks like a barn, but it's a church. - Yes. - It's like an old weather and see how weather church, weather church, her dress, this very like,

we got married moment on the cover of People Magazine. - Yeah. - And then the crash. And that's really all, it's like the wedding and the crash. And that's it.

- Absolutely. - And so for people who are older than we are or more dialed in than we were at the time, this might be more relevant. But I was thinking about this,

this is a Ryan Murphy joint, but what I have been given to understand is that it's closer to the People vs. OJ American crime story in that it's Ryan Murphy with Nina Jacobson and Brad Simpson, his longtime partners, but this show is created by Connor Hines.

- It's not really like a Ryan Murphy show, it's got his name on it, but it's not, he's not as involved as he has been in some of his other projects. - Even with like few like the swans, like is this not a similar situation where it's,

I've got a creator and it's got the Ryan Murphy umbrella, but the creator can do their own thing.

“- I think it's like that, but I think it's different”

from an American horror story or the beauty or these other things. So when you say Ryan Murphy, I feel like the Ryan Murphy brand means something specifically in a lot like, since OJ happened to do now there's been,

I don't know, it doesn't mean what you show. - I was 10 years ago. - Yeah, I remember we covered the heck out of that show together. So I just, I remember we don't like it, but I just remember when I've been pitching this show

to people love story, getting into it, a lot of people's reactions are like, Ryan Murphy, I'm a little out. And I kind of think that this isn't really that energy.

- Yeah, having watched the first three episodes,

does this feel closer to people versus OJ or does this feel closer to another Ryan Murphy project that you've seen? - No, it feels, it's got like so much people versus OJ vibes. I mean, the ninth like the period of the setting

kind of the investment and like the figures

who were in that world. Like I do think there's a richness to the world that they're establishing there.

“I think we can get into it about whether this story”

has the relevance of people versus OJ, if there's like as much thematic stuff to explore. You've obviously got Naomi Watts here as Jackie O. And so you get, you kind of had that swans vibe about it. - That's the most Ryan Murphy feeling from this

is Naomi Watts's Jacqueline Anassas Kennedy. - Yeah. - Who's taking a real big swing on her performance. I really say, you don't do a big swing of Jackie though. - Like, so it's not really working for me.

- Yeah, well, but that's okay. - We've got to explore each episode three. So I will say that like, I like what I've seen. I'm excited to watch more sort of big picture. The Jackie O stuff was just more Jackie O in this first three

episodes than I was expecting. The third episode is called America's Widow. Like it's about her. - Yeah, yeah. - And then the Darrell Hannah stuff is also a little bumpy

for me. - Yeah, we got so much. - But she's seemingly, Darrell's seemingly out of the picture into a certain degree at the end of episode three. Jacqueline Anassas has passed.

And so I'm actually like quite interested in what comes next inside the story because I really like the leads.

“- Yeah, well, I think there's a challenge”

where you've got these really big characters. Obviously, JFK Jr. is in this world celebrity. His mom is one of the biggest celebrities of the 20th century. Darrell Hannah is a big celebrity from that time. And then you have Carolyn Bassett, who we just don't know

that much about. - Exactly.

- She never gave interview.

She didn't want to be in the public eye. She was just kind of a normal person who is just really beautiful and like kind of mean and we should talk about that. Like how it's maybe aspirationaly mean in some ways. So you do feel kind of the spotlight struggling

to figure out who it wants to focus on. - Yeah, I think it's really interesting because I think the people versus OJ to go back to what you were asking about does this feel as relevant as that?

It's like we just knew so much more about the OJ Simpson case. Especially like if you were alive at the time. - Yeah. - There are also other hooks inside of people versus OJ like what the hell is John Travolta doing?

You know, what is David Schwimmer doing? - Yeah. - So with love and respect to Jack Schlossberg's who's parents are in this show, Jack Schlossberg is not Kim Kardashian. - No.

- You know what he mean? Like it doesn't have that much of a hook inside of who we are now. - Yeah. - Or is it the way that the Kardashians connection to OJ kind of gave it more of an immediate relevancy?

- Yeah. Or just the themes of the OJ trial that captured everybody that about race and class and celebrity and all these things and what it meant and who was taking who's side. There's not that for JFK Junior and Carolyn,

which is just like beautiful people who were in a relationship. I mean, there was a fascination around them. So it kind of becomes more like the royals. I'm sure the princess Diana comparisons are gonna be all over the place.

- Absolutely. - But so that's like, where is the thematic depth gonna come from? I don't totally know yet. - It's been interesting because so this show obviously has been

in the works for years and years.

They announced it first in 2021.

Netflix very recently announced that they're doing a crown inspired Kennedy show with Michael Fassbender and a bunch of other people. But Michael Fassbender's playing JFK. - He's playing Joe Kennedy Senior.

They're like starting later actually. - Yeah, yeah. - So they're gonna, they've got, it's Michael Fassbender's Joe Kennedy Senior. Laura Donnelly is Rose Kennedy.

Nick Robinson is as JFK. I love Nick Robinson, no relation, but I think that's really exciting. But they're like very clearly trying to do the crown for America with the Kennedy's on Netflix.

So that's the comp is like, these are our quote unquote royals. But to your point, as close as Carol, Carolyn Bassette, who came from middle class and entered American royalty,

Diana didn't come from middle class, but this Cinderella story of like the commoner who comes into the royal family, Diana was so open and messy and we just knew way too much about Diana. And Carolyn was as completely closed book,

like stand-offish. I don't, I don't, I don't, you know, I don't disrespect that stands for her. But it's so much more of a mystery, which could be intriguing like on the one hand,

Diana, we feel like we knew so much about her. So by the time we got to that season of the crown, maybe we're like, we already know this story. And with Carolyn, it's a bit different. What do you think?

Yeah, I wonder what the depths of Carolyn are. 'Cause what we see from her in these three episodes, I mean, she's interesting because she's that closed off thing. Like, she's not dishing with her friends. She's not really trying that hard to be relatable

to us the viewer or to the people around her. I mean, she's beautiful. And she is trying to undermine people at work sometimes. And she starts up this relationship with this underwear model. And you're like, you're not being very good to him.

“Like, why are you kind of toying with him in that way?”

So it's interesting to see kind of the flaws in that character with her. Whereas with JFK Jr, he's just struggling. He's kind of his mom. And there's a drama and there's all these feelings.

And he, you know, my understanding is that when they start fighting later in their relationship, she thinks he's just letting people walk all over him. And you can kind of see it laying the seeds for that. So, and I think that Sarah pigeon in this performance

is really fascinating. You just kind of like to watch her. You kind of get wide people in these rooms. We're all drawn to her. And he's drawn to her because she keeps pushing him away.

She's keeping it in her arms length.

I wonder how much more we're going to be able to get inside.

And if, you know, we're going to get to the end, you know, starts with that flash forward to them, boarding that plane. If by the time we get to the end of it, like we know her more as a real person

and not just kind of the fascinating avatar for like 90's chic to start with the end. - Yeah. - How do you feel about that approach? - I don't know what it gave us here. - Yeah. - Like everyone presumably

“anyone watching those knows that that's how it ends.”

But then again, like, what 27 years ago was a prank. - Right. - I'm not sure anyone like knows who Kremlin but said it is revealing my age. - Yeah. - Yeah.

But like you see that, I mean, it's interesting to see them fighting, you know, you get to that point because I think when I, what I little I know about the relationship is that it was tumultuous and they were like photograph fighting on the street.

So when you get to that point, yeah. And so the idea that maybe being like a poignant ending, like I haven't watched far enough I had a kind of hope. They're not showing the entire plane crash.

Like it feels a little grizzly. But the idea of like dying with someone who you're fighting with and you also love them. Like there's an interesting tension there. And for all that I agree with you

that there's too much Jackie, I think that tension that he feels with his mom or he loves her and she's driving him crazy is kind of interesting. And that might influence how we see their relationship grow,

“you know, I think that's really interesting.”

What I liked about what we got is we get this cold open sort of meeting, what's going on with him. He's injured, he's limping out of the office. He's got his JFK stationary. So we know who he is going to the Tarmac.

He's got her sister with him, his sister in laws with him. She also died in the plane crash. And we see Carolyn blonder, sleeper, smoother. But so unsure, right? She's that she's getting this manicurant.

She's like, actually this is the wrong color. They are going to like make it a neutral, you know? And so then when we flash back to 92, which is where the story starts. And we see her wild hair getting ready.

But so assured in her style and who she is, I like that contrast of like she became this sleeker blonder, picture perfect, Kennedy bride. But what it did to her personality and her confidence

and all the things that probably drew him to her in the first place

is what is the journey that we're going on. So I really did that. Yeah, so more of that and less of the plane crash strategy. Yeah, absolutely. What's interesting to me, your question of how do we get inside

Carolyn beset? Because my understanding, so the cited source for this show is once upon a time, the captivating life of Carolyn beset Kennedy by Elizabeth Feller.

“So that's what they're saying is the book, the People of”

versus O.J. also had like a source. Oh yeah, I think I read the book. You did remember, I remember right. So that's, but that book came out in 2024. They've been working on this as 2021.

So I'm like, how much can that book actually be the source of this? Is the writer of the book credited on the show in any way? Like is it a parallel processing? I don't know that I don't know that she's like credit as a--

Yeah. It's credit as directly inspired. I don't see her in the like producer rank. I just wonder if like, you know, you've got an unpublished manuscript book that go out there and like they enough to show two years later,

they're ready to start writing and it's like, okay, we can use this. Like it seems like that makes sense to me. What I did think was interesting though is like we get as I was trying to do some light research. I didn't dive as deep as you and I did for O.J.

But to do some light research from this, I was reading various articles that have been written over the years about Carolyn beset and a lot of the stuff we get in this opener seems to come directly from a different book, which is Michael Bergen, who is the male model, who she's

standing, wrote a book called, kind of like trashy book called, the other man, Colin, John F. Kennedy, Jr. Carolyn beset and me. Where he alleges that there was a lot of like overlap and all this other stuff. But this information that was in this book was about her morning

routine. So it was like seven minutes to chic. She would get up and she wouldn't ever brush her hair. And these are the kinds of clothes she wore. This is like the bur bagel order.

And this is how she got on the subway. And like that was just the opening minutes of the episode to me. So I am curious how, and Michael Bergen, the male model,

plays a fairly significant role in these first three episodes.

I thought he was there as just to kind of look at her dating a kind of poor man's J.F.A. Jr., a sort of what the energy was. - I know. - But I was like, oh, if he's an uncredited ish to her. For all of this sort of like insight into Carolyn,

I think that's interesting. And I'm curious how you would feel if one of your ex-boyfriends was a major source in a TV show about you when you've purposely kept yourself distant from the press. - I would have not feel great about it.

- I mean, I guess, I guess in real life, she also put him on the Calvin Klein billboard. So she gave him a leg up. So I guess he's gonna keep using her to get legs up in the afterlife. I mean, I like that detail about her, though.

There's something like a free sex and the city care

and her clothes are all over the place.

And she looks incredible, no matter what she's wearing.

“I think she's wearing a black turtleneck in summer”

in the office and you're like, wow, okay, in New York. I know what that smells like. - Yeah, getting on the subway wearing a black turtleneck is a choice that you can all make. And his role, I had the same thought of like,

she's warming up to J.F.A. Jr., but also like, getting with him and then leaving him. And you see here at the club with her friends, she's kind of like tactically calculating. - Yeah, but it's not the kind of like upward mobility

scheming to marry a rich guy thing that like Diana was accused of, that you might think of as a stereotypical version of how you wind up marrying a Kennedy. You kind of see her and her independence and what she values and her thinking process,

you see it at work, too. So even though she's kind of using the sky and the relationship, it also shows how she's getting more powerful at work that she can turn him into the Calvin Klein model to replace Markey Mark

for a homophobic incident. I didn't even know about it. - Oh, you didn't. I mean, I knew about other ones. - That one was a news to me, so yeah,

there's just so many to choose. - New deaths to mine with Markey Mark, great stuff. There's a great variety article written by Daniel Desario about the process behind making this show. And this is some of it, Connor Heinz, who is the creator of the show,

who is like a very like first time to get there to the writer.

- He was an actor, I believe, and just like wanted to try his hand at, according to his variety article, he wanted to try his hand at writing, he had sort of dialed in on the Kennedy's in Carolyn and had been doing his own research,

and then he heard that Ryan Murphy or FX, or whatever was interested in a project, he's like, hey, guess what I've been doing research for. - Yeah, yeah. - That's the story and variety, at any case,

but this is one of the quotes he has about Carolyn. And I'm curious if you, if you can identify what it reminded me of, so much of what I read about her was that when she singleed in on you, she could make you feel like the only person

the room with her. A wicked sense of humor, swore like a sailor, incredibly emotionally intelligent, a firecracker.

“After a while, I was like, oh, I think I have the skeleton of this.”

So that idea of like, when she focuses her attention on you, does that like ping anything for you? - It's a politician thing. It's just like, what everyone who's ever run for office or like who uses your name a lot in conversation,

like the actors do it and politicians are really good at it. - It specifically reminded me of the Jennifer Gardner Vanity Fair profile, and she said, "But then I've learned something very similar "about that act like."

- She's like, basically, I'm gonna miss quote it, great, great cover source, John Gardner, but she was like, when his attention is on you, it's like the sun is shining on you and when it's not, it's very cold.

- Yeah. - And so like that idea of Carolyn Bessette, and you can see it in these episodes, in the very beginning, she's with her friend, they're going up in the elevator, PTSD for me

of being in the elevator, caught in the past, I'm wearing that Anna Winter's gonna get in there. - There's Calvin gets in there. - Yeah, Calvin goes to be talking. - They're not gonna talk in the elevator

with Calvin. - It's an Anna Winter rule. - That wasn't Anna Winter rule. We have my son and sister-in-law, but she's kind of buzzing around doing her thing and then she turns her attention on her friend

and is like, here's what you need to do

“to get someone to like you, this is what you need to do.”

And in the dinner scene, the dinner date between JFK and Carolyn at the Indian restaurant, which I think was like the most important scene to nail in all of these episodes, the way that she's like dialed in on him.

There was just something really interesting about the way people who knew her describes Carolyn as someone who, there's a great quote, it's that she gained attention without seeking it. And there was just something about her

that was magnetic. - Yeah. - And there was something about her attention that felt like nothing else. So for JFK Jr, someone who lived his life

bathed in attention, what was it about the attention of this one person that really felt worth pursuing? - Because it doesn't feel like she's trying to get anything back from him, you know, he's bouncing all these things or her and she's paying attention to him,

but she's not trying to impress him. I mean, that's really what it is. She's playing hard to get and he's like, I can't believe it, no one in my life has ever not wanted to be closer to me.

And I love that scene, there's another one I think in episode three where they're meaning on a park bench. Like there's really great one-on-one scenes between them throughout this entire thing.

And even in parts where you're like, it's too much Jackie, it's too much giving me like Kennedy family history don'ts, like they're really nailing the chemistry between the two of them.

And what he sees in her, what she sees in him, what she's kind of trying to resist wanting to see in him. Like I don't think she's set it out loud, but you kind of see her being like,

I don't want to be a stereotypical wife of a rich guy. Like I want to do my own thing, but the fact that they keep getting drawn back together, I wondered how I felt about how long it takes them to get together.

Like that takes three full episodes before this relationship starts. But for the kiss, I think it's just in that end of episode three. - Right. - But I like the drawing out of that

between them maybe could have used a little less of the other stuff at the meantime. - Yeah, I mean, this is the truth of their relationship is that they got together for the first time in '92 and then I think not really in tone like, 495.

And so I like that idea that she wasn't just sitting

She was living her life to discover and Kate Moss,

which is true. - True. - True. - It's true.

“- I think they lived in the same building”

or something like that, so she like, new Kate Moss and sort of made Kate Moss. So the way in which Carolyn beset in her own way defined a lot of the look of the 90s is something that I didn't understand about.

- Yeah. - Yeah. - Even before anybody knew who she was. She was like the aspirational figure. But that chemistry, but I really agree with you.

I think they nailed all their scenes together. I think that final scene where he likes to her and the rain is devastated by his mom's death and the like slow peeling off of clothes that touching the calm down that he kisses her

and she's like, no. - There's like no death. - It's really good. - It's really, really good.

It's really, really good.

The bench scene, the dinner scene. Their energy is, I think, pitch perfect. - Yeah. - I think without a doubt to me, no matter how much attention the show gets or doesn't, this is such a calling card

for Sarah Pigeon as Carolyn beset. She's just, to your point, just endlessly watchable. - Yeah. - The way she flips her hair around what she's doing with her body, like the whole thing is just like,

I wanna watch this person be mean, be nice, be a professional, be all these carry-brushes. I was a great comp for that.

“I think this is a real calling card for her.”

I'm wondering, I like him, but I'm wondering how you feel about Paul Kelly who was cast three weeks before production began. - Did they have somebody else? - No, they could not find their day of age union.

And then they like kind of, they had discarded him earlier and they brought him back in and he's, I think, a model from Canada and they just like, you know, or our power to loss and a review of this and they're like, they found him wandering in the Canadian way

and it was like the fields about, right? - Sounds right. - I like him, I like him too. - He's savbled with weirdly less interesting stuff. Like the, I think the dynamic between him and Carolyn Kennedy

is really interesting, the dynamic between him and Jackie feels strange and like stuff we've seen before. But this idea of like being the crown prince, but not wanting it and kind of like, trying to resist that in really goofy ways,

a human walk up his bike and he's wearing those ridiculous hats. And he's trying to start this magazine and being like, why do these people want to have lunch with me? And like his cousin character, I think in the gym it's like, 'cause they want to be seen having lunch with you,

you absolutely moron. - Yeah. - So he has this arrested development thing, but there's such a sincerity behind all of it. Like, I do a various points thing.

Like, what was he supposed to do? Like, how was he ever going to like cut this knot and find his way through it? Like passing the border probably would have been helpful. - What have been helpful?

- I feel for him. - I feel for him. - This is like a great, a great, a great headline, that great sister would be here.

“- I mean, I think him and Darrell Hannah is a hot mess”

and you could have done many things to navigate that, but having him be weak in that way and not be able to get his way out of that relationship, but not be a pathetic character. Like, that's a tough balance, which I think he does well with it.

- I think he's great, I think she's a revelation and I think he's great. - Have we seen her in anything before? - She was in the wild, she was, she got in Tony nominated for "Stare of Fire"

- Right, that was perfect. - Yeah, which I haven't seen. - Yeah, so she's great, but this feels like, if this show hits, which I actually, I don't know if it will, it's gotten like some mixed reviews.

- Yeah. - It's hard to know what makes things hit. - It really is, and like, I was just thinking about O.J. and what a massive hit that was, but a tier point that was 10 years ago.

- And you and I were talking a little bit before we started recording about your point was,

O.J. was like the first time we had seen something like that

and since then we've gotten all of the crown and all of the other Ryan Murphy shows. And so now it doesn't feel as fresh or transgressive. - Yeah, Jack Sloshberg is out here being like, how dare you, you know,

always mad about that. - Oh yeah, he's like, how dare you turn this tragedy into content? And I'm like, that felt more poignant for us in 2016. Now we are very, no, I'm gonna do that.

- Also, I'm like, that's a wild stance to take. I mean, the movie Jacky also came out 10 years ago, you know, with all due respect to Jeff Slosh. Jack Sloshberg, I think that ship has sailed. On that front, how do you feel about NAMI Watts

as Jacky O putting on a mature Burton's Camelot and like, swanning around with smoking a cigarette? - I wouldn't not only portment did exactly that in the Jacky. - I think I wrote in all caps, like you can't just do that. - You can't do that.

- It's a wild, wild thing to do. - It's done, like-- - And 'cause like all Jacky performances are gonna kind of have that similarity to them. Like she's kind of a cartoon-y figure.

You're not gonna do a different version of Jacky that went Natalie Portman did because that's who she is. So just leaning into that and having her like, look back on her memories and burn letters. Like, I don't remember if she burns letters in Jacky,

but she may as well have like, it was the same. - She's like, doing a heavy pour on the wine and going through her closet. - Well, Camelot plays. - Do we really think Jacky and her like the last days

of her life was talking about Dallas that much? Like, you're so... You're gonna talk to say Dallas in these couple episodes, is crazy. She also just doesn't talk like a human talks,

which I don't know that Jacky, you know. - No. - I don't even mean accent-wise. I mean when she says stuff to, to, to, to J.K. Jr. like, you know, the public holds a stone in one hand

and arose in the other. And I'm like, which is just supposed to be like a normal conversation mother and so I have it here

- My, you know, in the movie Jackie with Greta Gerwig

or whoever's interviewing her, maybe. - Yeah, yeah. - I feel like she might have said something like that, like giving an interview to a reporter. But you're exactly right.

- That's how you explain it. - That's how you explain it. - Yeah, exactly. - Yeah. - When she's just got so many like Kennedy expositioned on,

she mainly her father was supported by his father to run for Santa and you need that, I guess. You need to have this sense of legacy, but I sexually later around when Jackie's getting sick and is dying when you start getting Caroline coming up

and she like go out to like wait for the press at some point when they're holding visual for Jackie. She's like, why do we have to put on a brave face from around? And you get so much from her that it almost may be wonder,

like, what if they just didn't have Jackie in this? And what if it was just getting senses of these parents from beyond that? - Yeah, I agree. - I think it's an interesting question.

Could we have done all of this without Jackie O? - Yeah. - And I actually, I think we could have. - Or way less Jackie O. - Way less Jackie O.

I think her death bringing them together is important.

“Like, I think you need to understand he's being like,”

you know, the Darrell Hannah relationship is obviously fascinating, but I think the grief that he's feeling and the like the pressure he gets from her, you need some aspect of that,

but they just did not have to turn it back into the 2016 film Jackie. There's so many other ways to do it. - Which is a great movie. - Great movie. - But I like that movie.

- I know. - I like that movie.

- Yeah, well, never been another camel out.

We all know. I still remember. I'm curious, like, yeah, I'm really curious what the show will feel like without her in the absence of the shadow of her.

- Yeah. - I'm also curious about this Grace Gummer performance as Caroline Kennedy. - Yeah. - It was reminding me a lot of to go back to the crown,

this sort of princess Anne role. - Absolutely. - That in the younger version, Erin Dockerty played, like, so a very similarly late. - So it's just similar.

They kind of look alike. - Yeah, very similarly reserved character, but Erin was bringing a lot more life to that archetype than I feel like I'm seeing from Grace Gummer so far.

- Yeah. - Though I did really love the scene between Jack and Caroline at the, at the, at the, at the week. - Yeah, yeah.

- When you're sort of hiding from everyone

and talking about the garden and the scene plays. - Yeah. - And so like that, I thought that was really good. - Yeah, and like, they have these inner table scenes and she's sitting there with her husband

and like, she's like, that's just an edge hospital. She's like, done the right thing. He's the one who can't get his life together. - Right. - And like, you see her kind of like

trying to support her brother while supporting her mom at the same time.

“That's an interesting daughter dynamic, I think.”

And so I, I don't know whether that's enough of what the story is to have, to get her as a character, but I'm kind of excited. It sounds like maybe there's more of her to come. - Yeah, I'll be really interested.

I mean, I know that Caroline, Carolyn Besett did not get a lot, obviously, clearly did not get along with the Kennedy as well. - I mean, you can't tell. Even from, like, she isn't met any of them yet.

- How much is that is going to come from? Is it on Caroline to represent inside of the Kennedy family? I'm unclear. So far. - Okay, Nicola.

Chris Fraude. - How much is the cost? - What brings us more? - At the moment, I check the goods. - Oh, huh.

How much is the cost? - Bring 250 € more a year. - Yeah, right. But why do you know what? - Because, as a story, the start of life shows,

that's just the story for all of us. - Yeah, I mean, it would be great. - Twenty-seven and unbeamable German, that's simply the app that we understand. - The story is readable.

- Say, with this story. Now the cost is solved.

“- What's interesting is like, in all of the Jack and Carolyn,”

here's their story articles that I read in the last week or so. Their meet cute is not at all what we see here. There are a bunch of different versions that exist out there in the world, but none of them are what we saw here. So they gave them a little bit more of a genuinely Cinderella

at the ball sort of sneaking into a ball where she doesn't belong. - Yeah. - He spots her. She's the princess.

She comes looking for her. - It doesn't like they're much like Gala's involved and they're early ship, so. - Yeah, absolutely. The pool one that happens later, that's definitely part of their story.

But so to give it a more kind of Cinderella aspect at the beginning, but also, my understanding is that the thing that they show is inside of this show, which is that it was Darrell Hannah's problem that she didn't get to spend time with the Kennedy's and Jackie O. That was also a Carolyn Beset thing that she was upset

or he wouldn't introduce her to Jack. And so that's not really part of their story here. Obviously, the way they're telling the story, they didn't meaningfully get together until after Jackie's death. But that was attention in their relationship too.

And I don't know if that change was made to paint him in a better light or I don't quite know. That seems to be all sort of put on poor Darrell Hannah's shoulders, which is Darrell has a really thankless role in his episodes. - Really tough.

- Drea Hemingway is playing Darrell Hannah. She's doing a boy swing, Darrell Hannah acts like voice pattern thing. At times it's a little uncanny, like the way she holds her body and so like that is like really accurate.

- There's just no way in real life

“she did so much like showing about a nowhere and like she's on his set.”

And she's just about the wake with like, it's like a jump scare kind of thing. - Yes, he's happening. - And I feel for her. Like he is being-- - Absolutely American horse or a Darrell. - I don't know if that's what it is.

- There she is in the wake and black. - Yeah. - And she's like, everyone's wondering about us. - Yeah. - Jackie O's wake, everyone wants to know what's going on with our relationship.

- Jack. - That's insane. - Classic actor stuff. - Yeah, I'm not the main character. - Yeah, I guess so.

- And I feel for her because he's so avoided. Like she shows up and he's like, okay Darrell, I guess you're here now. Like you really want him to take any kind of stand. So there's much as it feels like she's kind of reading the sign. She wants to not paying attention to the other ones.

But it's hard to have somebody for her.

- It's interesting that I'm like, does this show like any woman that's not Carolyn Besett? Like Caroline's getting in tough treatment. Jackie, who's like an asshole about Darrell Hannah and a bunch of other stuff.

- Yeah. - I don't know how much this show is interesting. Like women, I'll be curious to keep watching. - Yeah, there would be a really weird like through line for the show to have.

“And like it's complicated women, I think you can give it that.”

I don't think anyone comes in. - I don't think anyone comes in. - Do. - And theory, these Ryan Murphy shows do. - Do you?

- Although, they have a question. - I would rather than be complicated. I would rather, aside from Darrell Hannah, it feels like everyone has justification for other acting. And maybe they're all just rich nubs.

And that's why they act that way. Like including Carolyn to some extent. Like she can be a snob and be kind of difficult to people. So it's a complexity that I appreciate. The only good person in this world is a net bending, I guess.

- Oh my God. - You want to talk about a candy like that was really good at net bending. - Really good. The hair is so key to people like so much of the way that she's acting.

And like the first dress they have her in is so terrible.

- Right. - And you're like, this is early in the 90s and net bending you guys. Like get it. I don't know who played her. - But it was so good.

- But it was really fun to me because this is what I love. Like we used to, this used to be our burn butter of any fair, which like we would definitely have a breakout post. They might. - I don't know, we're recording this in a little early.

- But like a breakout post about the fact that a net bending did wear men's like men's wear to the bugs in premier. So like what's the connection there? And like that, I definitely Google Image search

like what she wore to the bugs in premier to like see it in actions. So, you know, this is a stuff we love. This is as much a, we started 92, we ended 99. This is much a show about the 90s as it is. - It has the opportunity to be as much a show about the 90s

as it is about these people in the 90s. Other than like the, I don't know, blind, melon, mazie, star, six bits on the richer, needle drops, like, for come on. - Mazie stars kind of a cheat though, don't you?

- Like, and as soon as they fade into you, 'cause I feel like, okay, it's kind of get me. - But like, it's like, Max Richter at the end of hand that. (laughing)

- It's pretty much. - It's pretty much. - But like, is there anything, you were asking sort of like what depth could be mine here that OJ did a great job with? - Yeah. - Like what is happening?

- I mean, we weren't, oh, like adults at the time. But like, what's happening in New York at this time that could speak to us in a greater ways, or anything you can think of? - I don't, I mean, the paparazzi, like the role of that

and their lives, like I don't know if like the death of Princess Diana will be covered on this show, but you think of that as a full complaint. - Yeah. - And these people could just like expect

to have photographer's following them. And now it's so different and everyone's got a camera phone. So kind of understanding that way of managing publicity and managing yourself as a public figure.

“I mean, I think it's gonna be the Kennedy stuff”

more than the 90s stuff, right? - Yeah. - Like legacy in what you owe people and you know, Jackie's saying the stone in the rose or Carolyn talking about putting on a brave face for them. Like I think that that weight of responsibility.

But that's also the thing that has been said about JFK Junior always. It's like he's like the prince and the tragic story. So I would like for there to be more about like calm and climb or like culture and fashion

and stuff like that than the Kennedy legacy stuff. I'm curious how that balance emerges. - I do think it's JFK Junior who's not someone I spent a lot of time thinking about to be perfectly honest with you.

Is such an interesting, you know, they obviously underline it. Sharpie highlighted this idea that the public met him as a boy grieving his father, right? Like he and Caroline as to children grieving the death of JFK is iconic imagery of the scene.

You see little baby JFK Junior in the crowd and Jackie's funeral. Like he looks at he sees a little memory of himself, I guess. - Yeah, yeah, but like yes. But like the way he's like, he doesn't look like his dad

that much but he does enough and he's so handsome that there is a sense from like what I've read is like that there's a sense of this perverse desire to like resurrect JFK. We can go back and we can have a different go

a tragic young death. - Yeah. - But like the fact that colliding with this idea that he's like a little bit of a hot dummy, you know what I mean?

- You can't pass the bar. - I'm close. - Right and so he's not dumb, like he doesn't seem dumb but like George Magazine was a flop. Like all this stuff that he was trying to do.

- So he makes you wanna start a magazine though. - Like the idea of like some rich guy throw it as my into a magazine and bring it back. - Yeah, like let's go back.

“- But I think that I think that's so interesting”

of like who people wanted him to be. - Yeah. - And who he actually is. - Yeah. - Presumence, yeah, Ted Kennedy and Jackie's funeral

reading the uology and talking about how she just wanted to be a person but the world needed her to be an icon. - Yeah. - And so like what the world needed JFK and what the world then will want the woman

who Mary's JFK Jr to be versus the messy haired woman that we meet in 1992 at the beginning of the show. - Yeah. - Yeah, I mean thinking about like what America thought it was doing in the '90s.

This is a very pre-9/11 story, very pre-9/11 New York. Like the plane crash in '99 like wrapping up this decade of being like we got it all, we made it to the mountaintop, everything is fine. Obviously the OJ shows also set in the '90s

just a period plenty of problems to mind. This is not the story you're gonna use to get into questions of race and class and all of that stuff. So what are the other things about America? - I mean, it's gonna be bring out.

- I feel like class will be here, but it will be on a completely unreliable degree. - Right, your dad was just a lawyer. - Wow. - Wow, you worked at the mall ever?

- Disgusting.

“- Which is like a pose that like I love to the crown.”

Like you've done being like Princess Diana grew up like just in a house on the estate. - Right. - Like an action of a title already. - Right.

- I'm fine with that being part of the drama. - Do you want to talk about Elsa and Roe and Nebula as Calvin Klein? - I've been to it. - Yeah.

- The Nebula family.

- You just never know what they're gonna get up to next.

- Like every, 'cause the daughter is also an actress. - Yeah. - It's like third, like the kids and Emily. - Yeah. - It didn't recognize him at first.

I had to look it up who he was playing. And it's not a big performance. I think that's Calvin Klein as a person is probably pretty restrained. But I just like the air of, you know,

hotiness and menace, like he's with him into that elevator. So he's married to woman at the time and Calvin Klein will later his life come out and have, you know, male partners for the rest of his life. And so I thought that was like a really interesting way

that they were treating at the beginning, like they had a few comments about like, our boss is like questionable sexuality. - Yeah. - Whatever.

- We're getting the Marky Mark homophobia conversation. He's sitting there as like a closeted gay man. - Yeah. - Inside the world of New York fashion,

“the worst kept secret or something like that.”

- I mean, that was something about the 90s. - Yeah. - But just sort of like sitting there and his reaction where it's almost like he felt the need to downplay it so that his sexuality

didn't enter into the conversation. - Yeah. - Do you know what I'm talking about? - He says we have to put out a statement that's like, you're gonna put it in your name

and it's like, yeah, I don't want to do that. We're not going that far. I thought that was really interesting. - Yeah, I don't want to have much more of a role he can play in the story overall.

But I like having him here. - Something that was interesting,

when the first photos of this show hit the internet,

the reaction for people who know way more about fashion than I do, which is everyone. (both laughing) Was that, they got the fashion wrong. - Yeah, for everyone.

- She's not fashionable enough for her. They didn't quite nail her minimalism or whatever the case may be. So FX has been like really heavy on the gas and all of their sort of behind the scenes

about talking about all the research, and all the vintage pieces they found, and all the things that they did. So they're really hitting the like, no, no, really we got the fashion right

to be swear, sort of energy. So that but they were talking about how Jackie O. as this sort of like queen of the Kennedy kingdom. And then Calvin Klein is this sort of like king of the fashion kingdom at the time.

And so like these two monarchical figures inside of this world. And I do question how much Calvin Klein is central to the story going through. But I thought of that as interesting,

we get way less Calvin Klein than we get of Jackie O. - Yeah. - And those two, those two in the Darrell Hanna are definitely like the three most Ryan Murphy E. sort of like performances as characters

inside of the show. But I was just like really interested to think about the fashion world in that way as like a kingdom with a king of the top. We think of Anna Winter at the top

with her cognitive bias. - Or like in the 90s, who was it? What was it? - I mean, I guess what's Anna Winter then? - Probably.

But yeah, the contrast in what Carolyn is wearing is she walks in that office, and she's only ever wearing black and white neutrals, like everyone else in the building as opposed to Jackie in her kind of like

60s fashion, the sort kind of like second time

- She's like a scarf, a scarf, a head scarf. - Love a head scarf, you know? I don't know who I really want to dress more like. I don't have a hair to like pull off the Carolyn stuff. But I do like that visual contrast a lot.

I think that Calvin Klein office is really fascinating

- Yeah.

- The showroom we're in at Benning is trying on the dress,

like every piece looks like perfectly assembled there. It makes you kind of want to like learn about fashion in a way, which I also don't usually want to come out of a showroom with the fashion. So it's an impressive job on their part.

We didn't talk about the dog. - Oh yeah, the dog. - What a terrible outcome for the poor dog. - All right, so we should say, and this is what, this is the trappy fall into

when you, not a bad trap, but like you're putting together what do we include from the life? And you stumble across this anecdote of JFK Jr. killed Darrell Hannah's dog, got it cremated and got on an airplane with the ashes.

- Yeah. - And presumably people saw him because there's that like commentary later about like, I don't know what people thought when they saw you on the plane with those ashes. But like that's one of those things where you're like,

we have to put it in the show. - It is true, it's true. - We can't do the show without Darrell Hannah's dead dog ashes and it like we have to do it.

But like, it's this weird like ending of the episode.

- Yeah, well it's parallel with Jackie Collapse. - Yeah, like okay, the dog whose name, I guess he has a name, I don't remember it, and Jackie equally. - He really is the best part for Jackie Collapsees

and the dog dies. - Yeah. - And yeah, and then Darrell jumpscare at the wake being like, I know how you feel about your dead mom because they don't.

“- She might be really right you have to sue”

because it's like, go think and say. - This is probably something you talk a lot about when you've got the show, what's like eight episodes, but like, is it an episode or are you just like trying to find a way to end it?

And then you can move the gun to the next one. You know, where are we? - Structuring something as an episode of television. - Yeah. - And like, I don't know that every OJ episode was good at that,

but I'm just remembering like, there's the one episode where it's about Marshall Clark and Chris Darwin. - There's the one where it's about the jurors and like you get these structures of this really large

unwieldy story by shifting your focus. And this one is about two people, really. So like, I guess episode three really is the Jackie episode and we're complaining about the focus of it. But like, there's a messiness in the structure

and these early ones so that you end on the dog and Jackie. And I wonder if it kind of finds a way to tighten the lens and structure itself like an actual episode of TV going on. - I'm just looking at episode titles going forward. - Okay, episode five.

Episode four is called, I love you so presumably.

They say I love you the first time for them.

- Okay, great. - Episode five battery park probably where they had one of their public like pop-ups. - Oh, they live like tripeco, right? - Yeah. - I think we found out.

- So I'm probably one of their big blue fights. - Okay, instead of central park is probably battery park. - Episode six, the wedding. - Thank you. - Go into Georgia, let's do it. - Yeah.

- I guess so. And then episode seven is called Obsession. - By Calvin Klein. - Oh, but like, I don't know. I don't know what that's meant.

- So is it seven episodes? - It's nine, but they don't have the final two listed. - Oh, okay. - On the old Wikipedia. - Okay, best source for anything ever.

So, and then the first episode was called Pilot, which is them being very, very cute. - Yeah, 'cause they didn't pilot the series. They just, yeah, they put the whole thing out there right at once.

So let's go back to the beginning of that at the end. - This is in the moment where it's like, what do you know what, what can you guess? So we know that JFK Jr. had an injury.

“I believe he actually had the crutches on the tarmac.”

- How did he get injured again? - That was a paragliding accident, which is like exactly how you think. - That was one of Kennedy would do actually. - He sent the flight instructor away.

It wasn't like, hey, Jay's not here. He didn't show up. The flight instructor, he sent him away. And then in terms of their like, reconciliation, do you wanna call it?

They're tentative reconciliation that happens on the tarmac. This is entire show, and eventually like, we don't know the state of their relation. They had been fighting.

We don't know how they felt when they got on that plane. So this is how many of the show is decided. We're gonna show you this conversation at the very beginning of the show that they weren't headed toward divorce.

They were headed toward reconciliation of some kind of behavior. - Or they were at least in a stable enough place to go to this. - Well, this is a love story that would have had endured how they've not been for the crash,

which like, I don't know that I think it would have. Like, I don't know that they don't get divorced if they go to the wedding in Georgia and come back. You know, so like, but this show wants to be a love story and wants to tell like a true love story.

And I maybe am too cynical for that here in 26. I don't know. What do you think? - I mean, I don't know that that means it's gonna end on a note of being like,

this was the truest love of all. Like, it does seem like they're setting them up as complicated people in their relationship. Like, face as challenges, there would be hard for anybody to overcome.

“And I think maybe the best you can hope for”

is saying they're gonna try. You know, they're like, they're in this position. They want to reconcile, they're probably gonna fight again at some point. Because again, like, I hope there's not an episode

of them being inside the plane crash, but like, what is the final note that we're gonna end them on? Like, you hope it's a note of like, oh, what we could have fixed it, you know? Like, at least it's like a hopeful sense of,

what could have been, which is I think so many of the Kennedy stories is that you think about like, what potentially could, and even if they'd gotten divorced and she'd gone on YouTube, she could be the editor of Vogue or whatever else.

Like, that could be an interesting part of it, same with Diana and Charles, really. Like, I felt so invested in their relationship. I was a real prince to her as a pilot just watching the crown.

I think now we understand his powers better and I made me like, for Charles, it's all Joshua Connor.

“But I remember you and I used to get in like,”

are you meant to know, for this girl? Well, it's still really a kid's junior thing. Like, you have your mom being like, this is what you're supposed to be. And it's not that I was rooting for Charles and Diana

to get together, but you just think of like, kind of thinking to just figure, if they just figured out for a co-parenting.

Or if they would just marry Camilla in the first place,

but, you know, we can only go back to that. So yeah, I like a love story when it's a proper love story, but I'm kind of counting on this to go. It knows slightly more nuanced direction, even if that's the last few years of maybe that's the last shot

of the show, you know? We just we see the plane flying off again. And I have to imagine, especially like, so much time we're spending with Caroline that we're going to get like, aftermath.

Yeah, of like, what it meant for. Because I think in order for this to, this show and this story to feel like it matters, I think they need to show you the day in the fact of what happened after the last.

But you think that might be the last few you see of JFK Jr. and Caroline? Yeah, like the fact of that, and then we have like, I wouldn't surprise me.

Yeah, if they, or like the first bump of turbulence,

or something like that, I don't think they're going to show the whole story. How?

“What would it take for you to get into the plane with your husband?”

My husband? My husband? Your stranger's husband has like pretty minimal flying experience. And his husband lives down on the tarmac. Do you use your feet when you have no idea of like,

there's a gasp on the wall? I think you should. I don't. I don't think it's, well, I don't want to let them all play. I'm not flying anybody's planes.

Yeah, I'm not getting in that plane to be clear. Not at all. Carolyn, sister, just like, OK, let's give it a go. It seems easier than driving, obviously. But no, thank you, not even once.

Yeah, sorry to anyone in my life who wants to get me to get on their plan. I'm going to do it, it's not happening.

Well, so that's the first three episodes.

Are you excited to watch the rest? How do you feel about it? Yeah, it is funny to talk to you about this. And being like, I don't have the like mandate marching orders to cover every inch of this,

the way we would have the vanity fair, like five years ago. So I get to just kind of like dip in an owl. But my brain still broke it. And I'm like, this is what this break out should be. And this is what this break out should be.

Oh, still cook. Yeah. I know. I know, like the 90s nostalgia, like all the pieces are kind of in place for me there.

And again, like when Jackie's kind of getting out of the story of interest in to see where it goes from there, I got a lot of TV I got to watch. Like, I don't know if you know, there's a lot of TV in the world. Yeah, it's hard to see.

Very busy. I'm going to watch, like, one of the sad, Oscar-ownated shorts, which is like, what I need to be doing right now. Yeah. And then reward myself with another one.

Which will also ensadly. So, you know, but nothing is better than an Oscar shorts. So, you know, you can only go up from there. Yeah, I mean, the docs are rough this year. Yeah, I'm excited to watch the rest of this series.

I want to be excited too for this to be not an OG levels success, but I would like it if we can get a good one of these again. And like, have everybody talking about Carol and the set for one.

“It's more fun if, like, a ton of people are watching you know?”

A ton of people are learning a bunch of stuff about the 90s of the first time. And they're like, wait, really people wore pants that came up to your ankles and you're like, yep. That's what we wore.

Yeah. It is true. Okay. That has been the Prestige TV podcast about these thrips. Thank you so much, Katie Rich.

Oh, goodness. Thank you for having me here. We'll be back with more industry, more of the pit. And if this show is a hit, you know, will come back to it again in the future. Right to your local ringer broadcasters and say, more of love stories, sure.

It's true. And the letters will be pouring in. Thanks to everyone all those here with us, thanks to Justin Sales for the work on feed. We'll see you soon. Bye.