‘Love Story’ Episodes 4-8: Press-ed

The master of the club's laptop is soft, but the internet is so much fun.

I'm saying, you can say that you're a hero. You're a hero, right? But you don't understand. That's right. It's just a challenge. You just do it with this story. And if you then work, you'll be able to do it.

-That's right? -Safe. This story. You're going to be a hero. Now you're going to try it. [MUSIC] -Hello. Welcome back to the Prestige TV podcast.

Me and I'm Dwight Robinson. -I'm Rob Mahoney. -And I'm Rob Mahoney's insistence. We're here with the penultimate episode of FX's Love Story. Colin, JFK, Jr. and Carolyn Besett. I guess that's the subtitle.

But look, I couldn't let you and Katie have all the fun. I have to get in on some love story action. I'm really enjoying the series. I have to say. -So we did do a podcast at the beginning of the series. Rob was not here, but my pal Katie Rich was here.

“So that does exist in the feed if you want to see what we thought of the beginning.”

Rob felt left out, wanted to join in the love story fun. -Yeah. -It can't just be Bill Simmons' recording. -So we're sold from his son-in-law giving him a love story. But this has been a popular show. -It's funny. -It's kind of a hit.

We're here to talk about up through episode 8, exit strategy. So the penultimate episode. And then we are planning to be back for the finale next week, which is called search and recovery, tough. We're not going to go by beat because we're doing a bit of a catch-up.

Also, Rob has not been here. So I need to get your takes from the beginning. Before we get into that, do you want to tell people where they can email us, where they can find us in social, et cetera, et cetera?

I'm so glad you asked Joe. They can always email us at [email protected].

And they can find us increasingly on social media at ProcedEachTVPod, including on Instagram. Speaking of social media, we're also doing these TV prescriptions series. There's a phone number that our listeners can call and if they want to get TV personalized TV recommendations for us.

What is that phone number? -Yeah, if you would like one of these recommendations. -Yes. Call the number 909-313-4046. And you will be met with a series of prompts about, you know, what you're watching, what you don't like,

who you're watching with. And we're going to try to tailor a specifically it's humanly possible to your exact needs. -Stay on the line if it rings a bunch. Someone will, and a message will appear eventually.

This is a follow-up on our pit pod from earlier this week. We got a comment. One of our listeners was taken aback by the way that I say the word golf. Do I say it?

How do you say that word? -Golf. -Golf. -How did was there a specific objection? No, just wow, the way the director says golf. -What kind of tailspin did this put you into? -The huge one means that's why.

-You know, some people pronounce like big, weirdly. You know what I say, bag, big, or like dragon, or like what ever. -Yeah, but golf. I didn't even know there were multiple ways to pronounce it. -I didn't hit in the L's. -Give me one more time.

-Golf. -Feels normal to me.

“-Okay. -I guess if you call, if you want to--”

-You want to hit the O sound to distinguish from golf of Mexico. -Are you going golf? -Are you very-- are you-- are you-- are you goofy? -In this thing? -Oh, like, gorsh? -Yeah. -No, no, no, no, no, no. -Golf. -Golf. -Oh, no, no, no, no. -I don't think so.

All right, it's late on a Friday, so I have lost my mind. Let's talk about love story. We're just going to run through some questions that I have for you, Rob Mahoney. When you started watching this season, yes. You texted me, fairly immediately, you said, I'm all in.

-Domin. -Why? Tell me why. I'm a simple man. -Okay. -And watching these two make eyes at each other across a crowded room. -Works for me. -Just like a fundamental level. And so there's a lot, I think, in the propulsion of this kind of like early seeds

of their relationship that are really exciting. The scene in particular that did it for me was when JFK Junior goes into Calvin Klein to see Carolyn again, to kind of get measured for a suit, but really just to see Carolyn again, just the charge of that scene as she is like taking his measurements and bantering with him. And I would say as a viewer, the way I was feeling like the negative space between them.

And a clocking like how close proximity are these people to each other. You could feel like the magnetic pole of these two actors. And that's something I want to see more of.

“And I think the first couple episodes do an interesting job of withholding that”

because there's so much else going on. -There's a lot of Darrell Hannah. -There's a lot of Darrell Hannah. There's a lot of Jackie O. There's a lot that I'm not that interested in to be honest

in the first couple episodes.

But part of the result of that is that let me wanting a lot more of Carolyn and John. How much, you know, Katie and I talked about this a bit when we recorded the start of the season, but what if anything at all did you know about these two before starting the show? -Almost nothing. I know the end, point of the end game. -Yes.

but not the extent of it, not the way it's being portrayed in the show.

It's one of those things I know, like the broadest possible strokes. -Where are you in general on sort of based on a true story shows or films? -Interested, but not interested in, like a relentless commitment to detail. You know, like I don't need my ripped from the headline series to be point faithful. I don't need it to absolutely hit X, Y, and Z marks along the way.

I just want to watch like an interesting portrayal of a thing.

“-Right. -And if you want to take a certain amount of liberty with that, I'm game for it.”

And I think I'm probably more interested in, you know, a more impressionistic look at a famous person or a real-life person. -This is a question I had for later, but you know, it's hard for me to watch these shows divorce from how I used to cover these shows, like, for sure. -For sure. -For the crown or the people for Zojae or Versacee or all these other shows. It's like, one of my jobs is a journalist used to be sort of like, what's the true story, you know, and what is the story they're telling here? And because people are constantly Googling, like, did this actually happen?

Did Carolyn's mom actually give that speech at, you know, the rehearsal dinner, XYZ, and you got to have that, like, SEO-friendly article ready.

So, like, it's hard for me to just sort of get lost and show like these. But sometimes this show, I think, is more successful than others at really drawing you into just a kind of story that you're talking about here. And then there are other times where you really feel them kind of sweating to match, like, a photo that exists. So, for example, when Carolyn and Donna are like walking out of the church, the very famous wedding photo that was on the cover of People Magazine, hitting that, like, hand kiss just perfectly, or I would say even more so, something like the sort of tabloid infamous argument they had in battery park.

Yeah. How do we recreate that fight without knowing exactly what was said in that fight? But knowing that, according to the photos, a ring was thrown, like, hair came down, people were showed, people were jumping on top of each other. So, you could, like, watch them sort of try to, like, hit the choreography, like, her hair goes up, that her hair comes down and it's like, she grabs the dog. He grabs the dog, but, you know, like, all of her stuff really felt like they were trying to hit the beats to match the paparazzi photos.

Definitely.

“And those moments feel a little sweaty and funky to me, do you know what I mean?”

I think for sure. Yeah.

And the show almost wants you to know when they're happening, right?

It'll shift into, like, of, you know, a tape VHS kind of filter. If it's like, this is supposed to be something from paparazzi footage, you'll see a lot of, like, camera men snapping shots at opportune moments that, yeah, you would recognize. I think the more successful ones, honestly, I think battery park is a good example of, I'm compelled enough by the animation of these characters and the emotion of that moment.

Yeah. And, like, the idea of, like, negotiating out in public, whether it's a good idea to be married, in a way that is not a logical thing to do, but is something that people do, right? Just, like, a boiling-over-effects for Carol and in particular, right? But I'm not sure I want to do this in why are we talking about it.

And so, like, I was glued to that particular scene. But then there's other ones where it's like, yeah, I understand what we're doing here, and I don't particularly care about it. But I'm sure there's a viewer out there who wants to see those moments.

“Something I noticed about, so Sarah Pigeon is doing, I think, an incredible job as Carolyn.”

And then Paul Kelly is, like, sort of, ebs and flows for me as a performance as JFK Jr. But something I've noticed that is when he is recreating footage that exists, it's so clear to me that he has watched the game tape because his accent gets, like, actually kind of stronger when he, like, goes out and gives a news about Jackie's death or whatever. Like, that footage exists.

So you could just study that footage, listen to the vowel sounds, and then he starts to sound more like a Kennedy when he does those scenes, which I think is really interesting. This might be a psychotic way to watch a television show, but, like, I don't know how to turn my brain off.

It's hard of the experience. Has did I see, you know, you mentioned the suit fitting scene? Are there any other scenes where you just sort of, like, got lost in the sauce of their dynamic and weren't thinking about, this is a story based on real people?

I mean, honestly, almost any time that they're together alone. Alone, okay, yeah. But also, you know, even just when they're kind of, like, flirting in the early stages of their relationship, but haven't come out in public with it yet and passing, like, all lives in a bar?

That was a really great sequence, the whole land. Yes. Our secret affair sequence will be really, really good. In this, like, more recent batch of episodes, I would say in the wedding episode, which is titled The Wedding,

very, hopefully. Yes. They get high and are, like, planning what the wedding will be, and common people by pulp is playing, and. I like to discuss this in greater detail.

Oh, they talked to, there's an article of any fairy about how they got, they had to work really hard to get pulp to encourage to sign off. To put common people in there. They, I think, did not get the sign-off on night swimming, which is why that swimming scene takes place during the day in the wedding episode.

But they really wanted the on the nose, RAM night swimming, needle dropped there.

who are, like, secretly quite posh, but pretend to not be posh, not wanting their music associated with the Kennedy's is very funny. Um, yeah, what do you want to say about pulp? I mean, I just really liked that scene. Yeah.

Just felt like two real people also. Paul Anthony Kelly, like one of the hunkyest men alive who's playing. Very impressive. Very hunky. This man has zero dance moves.

Oh, it repeatedly. It's a brave dancing performance. It is, it is a wild to watch.

“But what do you want to say about about that scene or comment people?”

I mean, I kind of want to talk about the needle drops in general with this, because I think in a slightly different format, a slightly different show, it would feel super clawing. The amount of pop music that's in this show. It's a lot.

It's a ton all the time. And I really love it. And I've been trying to put my finger on why this feels better than so many others. And I think the comment people sequence in addition to, like, all the shadows stuff, like, making the music intertwine with the people's lives,

makes it feel so much more organic, and turning that music cue into a diagetic one. It just played common people over Carolyn and John talking about their rustic wedding. Yeah. I would have grown so loud.

Right. But that it's this like kind of sweet kind of lame, like a couple in love having this moment. I'm going to turn on this music. And it's like, yeah, it's very on the nose for what they're talking about.

But it just turned into a scene that I really wanted to watch. And yeah. There's also, like, Katie and I talked about this a bit, but there's interesting sort of we're taking you through the 90s, aspect to the needle drops, right?

Definitely. We talked about the blind amount, but like, in the episode where, this most recent episode when we have the Diana crash, right? Which is 97. And then we get radio heads, you know,

exit music for a movie or whatever it's called.

Is that our third radio head?

I think so, like, that's from the Romeo. It was written for Baselarm as Romeo and Juliet. So it's just sort of like, we're doing a 97 song right now. And you let you, you're, you're into that. It's not to has any needle drop made to go, oh, not this one.

I mean, no ordinary love was definitely one of those. It's, they're not just on the nose. They're on the nose on like a song title level, right? It's not just like the lyrics that are illustrative of the moment. It's like, oh, this is the exact thing you would pick out of a list if you wanted

“to be very specific about what you should have come over.”

But I definitely actually know the one that got me was Carolyn is very despondently smoking a cigarette by the window. And when the, especially, especially, because I closed captioning on, and when it said, "Sullen girl plays," I was like, "I'm not, of course, it fucking does." That's a lot.

The opening of this episode, X is strategy, had like a very stylistic energy to it. And the episode itself is essentially a call along over actually two different years because we end in 99 because he's got his injury, right? That he has when he flies a plane. So we're in 97 and 99.

But it's like basically one long conversation between two actors. One of those sort of like, we're really going to do it TV episodes of like, we're going to just make these two actors.

I think Sarah Pigeon is incredible.

And I just don't know that I think Paul Kelly is matching her energy inside of a concept like that where it's just going to like, it's just going to be these two in the episode. What do you think? I think it works a little better for me here than in some previous moments.

Like the battery park fight, there were definitely times where I'm like, he is just playing big baby. And some of that is like, that's baked into the character a little bit. I was wondering if it was kind of the point.

“I don't know if I think it's a conscious choice,”

but I think this idea of him is like a handsome empty suit is sort of interesting. I mean, the show is engaging with that in real time. Right. Not just an empty suit, but like kind of just straight up kind of dumb. Yeah.

Like he's the guy who's like sitting in bed, laughing at like the America's home. Funny his home video style like guy getting pulled around by a water hose clip. In addition to just like not running his magazine company. Listen, Bob Sagitt had a death grip on the American people in the 90s.

He did it from the pulse, including of JFK Jr. Yeah, sure. But this episode really worked for me. Honestly, I think it's my favorite of the season. Yeah, I, for as much as I love the early stages of their relationship and the flirtations.

This stuff is really hard. It's like this kind of episode as you alluded to is high degree of difficulty. There's nowhere to hide. These two actors have to pull it off. Sarah pigeon.

I mean, Jesus Christ. She is a force of nature on the show.

And I agree with you that ultimately like Paul Anthony Kelly.

There's a little bit too much like squint acting here and there. There's a little too much like delivering too hard or too soft or not quite matching. The moment that she's presenting. But this show is such like a Carolyn Center show that I think it still works on balance.

Interesting.

Did it hit you differently.

How do you feel about it? Oh, me just saying interesting. I think I'm not. I mean, it's good podcasting. But, you know, we could go a little deeper.

I don't know. I just feel like like if you compare, I don't love to compare everything to succession. But if you like. Like you think about like the Tom and Shiv. If you had like a whole episode that was just like those two like Sarah Snook and Matthew McFadden.

Like we would have to go to the hospital. Yeah. Like it's not bad. So I was going to like the they came up with a concept for this episode. Right.

And they had half of what they needed to like make it in all time banger. And then like.

Like Paul Anthony Kelly is like extremely handsome and doing like I think a good job.

First credit. Absolutely. Absolutely. But like Sarah pigeons just like on another level entirely. So when she's like on the floor screaming and snobbing and crying like what about not us?

What about like what about not us? Yeah. You know what he's just sort of like I'm leaving by. You know, again, it sort of works with the character. That's the same.

Yeah. Yeah.

“I think that's why I'm a little more is a little more compatible for me.”

It's just because of the way that John has been portrayed to this point is like somebody who might react in that way. You famously like love a love story. I do. And this is that's the title of this show. Do you love like given that this episode is your favorite?

Are you into like a really messy like marriage story blue valentine? Is that where you're looking for acrimony inside of your love stories or what are you looking for? I'm not looking for acrimony. I don't know sounds like maybe you are. Acrimony just finds you.

Okay. Sure. But I do. Like everyone's kind of palette is a little different on one type of romance. You want to watch.

I do love a bittersweet love story. And so this is in the zone, the show overall just knowing how it ends, knowing how it's going to unfold. Like gets you into that headspace. And if you're going to be bittersweet like there has to be the big fight. There has to be a progression, there's to be a devolution.

“And I think for Carolyn in particular, this idea of seeing someone who's like so alive at the start of the show”

becomes such a shut-in and just lose her entire world is like such a heartbreaking thing to see. And I like that that becomes not only the thing that she is reckoning with, but like John experiencing that as his own failure. But with the idea of seeing someone you love fault to bits and internalizing it as yet another thing you have failed. I just, I found there argument to be really compelling.

Or I guess it's technically two arguments. In a way that like you remind me of the big fight in anatomy of a fall. Where that movie you're kind of waiting the whole time to actually figure out if you're going to see what the fight is or if you're just going to get secondhand accounts of it, which is I think part of the great drama of that movie. I had no understanding that this was going to come, but when it did as it's going on,

both of them are making their points. I think both of them are fully justified at various moments. I think both of them are totally out of pocket in other moments. And I think the yo-yo back and forth of like not even a who cider you on, but how am I even supposed to feel about this person in this moment.

I just, I felt myself constantly sort of backfooted in a way that I thought was pretty impressive for a show that could have been a caricature or could have been only reductive. And certainly, you know, I know that you have not seen any of the like the American crime story seasons that that Ryan Murphy produced. But we had talked about it a little bit about how like good I thought OJ was.

I thought Versace was pretty good. And then when they did the sort of Clinton Loans, you see, and all that one was like, exactly what you're talking about that sort of caricature before and heavy makeup. It just feels like almost SNL sketchy.

This never does. Like, I don't think there are any performance.

Well, other than I would say, maybe Naomi Watson, what she was doing. But like, most of these performances don't feel like Donald logos here is Ted Kennedy. And he could be playing that way more broadly than he does make me laugh every time he pops up. But that's just because of my personal relationship with Donald. What is your personal relationship with Donald?

“Well, I'm just like, how did the guy from Terry's become Ted Kennedy?”

How soon do we get Terry's on a TV recommendations? TV prescriptions? We're at the wheel show. That's true. And we want to stay tuned.

Yeah, I was like, oh, Donald logos here. Yeah. I don't know if they're going to use, like, they barely used him. So I'll be curious if he is a big role to play in the finale or something like that. But let me go back and say, in terms of the fight in what works inside of this episode,

when John is talking about how he didn't lose his father he lost his mother. Watching Jackie grapple with JFK's death and become this sort of shadow of herself. itself is something that a painful thing that he had to live through and and watching it happen in a in a sense to Carolyn. And yeah, they say reprehensible things to each other, but that's just realistic. It is. It is. I have any relationship. But on the on the sort of larger tapestry

they're weaving here, is there a side a non-John non-Caroline character or performance that you think works particularly well? It's tricky because I'm going to be honest, this is not the most well rounded ensemble cast. Everyone who is not John or Carolyn is kind of there to be like

her friend showed to be like, man, Calvin Klein, she's going to be pissed that you're not wearing

his wedding dress just so we know later when she meets with Calvin Klein what the stakes are. Right. That said, like Alessandro Naval as Calvin Klein, I'm I'm so bummed that he's I imagine not going to be in the finale of the show, right? Right. Maybe I guess, you know, maybe in like a condolences kind of reaction sort of way. I could see that, but like he's really, really terrific. What's really funny is that especially that scene where Carolyn leaves Calvin Klein

and he knows he's not designing the dress, but she doesn't know that he knows but that is such a Ryan Murphy show character and a Ryan Murphy show moment. Like it feels like the show and it's

most I know that Conorhines is like the the main creator of the show. It's not a Ryan Murphy

show necessarily, but like that's the mode of character, a a resentful gay man is like very much in the mode and like but Alessandro Naval who's so good all the time did a great job with it.

“But I really agree with you words, like they remember that Carolyn has a mom right before”

her mom needs to give a speech or they remember that John's friend is there right before his cancer comes back. That character, yeah. I like like that character a lot, but like I like that performance is a really warm performance totally, but like you know he's he's they're at the beginning of the season. He's ostensibly there in the wedding episode as like the best man but sort of barely there. Wait along the way to kind of like cut up with John and take him down to

peg and check his ego a little bit. But I just really feel like he I feel like and this this is a this is a problem that like again some other Ryan Murphy shows have had where it's just sort of like you forget about the actual it doesn't feel like a lived in world. No because these characters Evan flow when you need them for plot reasons and not like um actually character reasons you know.

“I think there are two exceptions to that rule. Other than Calvin Klein one like I also was very”

impressed by Lila George's Kelly Klein. I think they're dynamic and she was also to me like one of the maybe only bright spots of disclaimer um in terms of like her appearance on that show and so like I would love to see her do more stuff like this feels like something that's right in her wheelhouse and I also really love Sydney Lemon as Katherine Sister Lauren. Okay. Uh in particular like the made of honor kind of conversation. I think she's like really good sibling shit. Yeah. And

the bathtub scene like yeah. There's like shit. She didn't have a ton to do yet every time she's around it brings interesting things out of Katherine and she feels like an actual counterpoint and not just someone to deliver dialogue. I really liked Jessica Harper as Ethyl Kennedy. I mean come on like Jessica Harper and absolutely. Yeah absolutely legend but like everything that she was doing was like what I wanted Naomi Watts to be doing with Jackie. This just did not like Ethyl Kennedy

is a known quantity if you follow the Kennedy's um and is like very much a character very much the like intimidating made track of the family, all these things but doing it in a way that feels realistic there just moments when she sort of like looks at Carolyn or the conversation

she has about never being the the prettiest one and all this sort of stuff like that that just felt

very human so she could be like capital K Kennedy an intimidating Kennedy that sends Carolyn into a

“tailspin of anxiety and inferiority but also felt like a real person for her interact with. I think”

that idea of her and Jackie juxtaposed is something that shows really interested in not just those two but those two types of people right are you the kind of person who walks into a room and the attention pulls to you or you the kind of person who is in the room has to fight to kind of get it back. I think to show us some like interesting ideas about that I don't know that it really has many interesting ideas about legacy or even like you know combating the paparazzi or what it means to be

famous like it's a lot of stuff we kind of have seen played out very similarly in other texts. Right the like the fact that Diana's death is a key part of here at the end of the season and like a little bit of a ride Murphy verse tie and when Carolyn's like I just saw her at Johnny's funeral and's like American crime story Versace look for shameless absolutely shameless for Carolyn to set in the background but the Diana stuff is such well-worn territory you've seen it

in the crown or you've seen Kristen Stewart do or you've seen like a ton of people and we watch about you know like you've seen a ton of people do the Diana story which is like very similar and again the show draws attention that to the the paparazzi hunt that is though that is a reality of for sure the 90s and the media and sort of like our quote-unquote

doing anything that I haven't seen inside of one of those Diana stories. I think the only thing

that felt new from a Diana perspective was using her and Carolyn in contrast and this is something that Carolyn brings up in the immediate aftermath of her death is like Diana did stop for the tabloids and did pose for the pictures and did like she's everything right she tried to play nice for them and they still wouldn't stop yeah and Carolyn tries to live a private life and tries to like go on and not participate in that and they called her a bitch and they still

wouldn't stop and so this idea of like they're really is nowhere to go and this trap that

“all certain level of fame boxes you in I think that's an interesting kind of again juxtaposition”

of those perspectives and those characters that I hadn't quite put together before but as far

as Diana herself I mean she is a framing device in the show right yeah I just I'm I'm trying to

figure out what the because the show is positioning the story of these people and and Katie and I talked about this a little bit at the beginning of the season but framing these the story their love story as a story that spans a literal decade and you have a certain iconic you know like Diana's death is a huge like defining event of the 90s but you have the rise of Kate Moss or the rise or the rebirth of Calvin Klein or what are all these things that define a decade or the musical

choices but I don't know that it is telling me anything particularly like in the way that American the OJ story told me something very shocking and true about that specific moment in time and I don't know yeah I don't know that this is holding up a mirror to anything in a way that I

“understand or unearthing anything I don't already know about the decade yeah I think there is definitely”

there was an nostalgia in this series for the idea of an unobserved life this is what Carolyn is

longing to get back right like her old life where she could go about her business where she wasn't being hunted where she could just like hold a normal job yeah I think we all feel some version of that really modern life this this concept that we are not being hunted by paparazzi but you step outside and anything you do is observable and filmable and can be litigated on the internet internet by like countless people at any time that's just like part of living in society today and so I think

there is a reach for all of us for like a point in time where someone couldn't contact you so easily couldn't capture you so easily but what does that mean in terms of a show that like also wants to be about paparazzi which is such like an artifact of a very specific moment like being famous today is I think it bears very little resemblance to being famous in the way that Carolyn and John are famous right and like what Jackie and JFK went through is very different

from what happens especially like this is the the boiling over point for the paparazzi it's not over because there will be like Britney Spears the concept like you know it goes on but I do think that move from like paparazzi culture into social media culture where celebrities in theory have more control over their exposure is the means of production exactly but it then becomes

“you have to sell yourself constantly in order like actors talk about this right where it's”

just sort of like if I don't have a large enough following no one will cast me in anything yes or write it you know in in the publishing industry like authors talk about this it I can't get a book deal unless I have a large social media following so I need to be like a personality that people enjoy I can't just like write a book or you know be a performer they're they're you know intertwined now and if you got into the profession before that was the case

congratulations but if you're trying to make it now you just have to play that game and I think especially that discrepancy between the way that sort of fame works now versus that yeah to me this sort of tabloid culture that the show is interrogating and examining and I want to say it's kind of visceral level like very upsetting to watch and to feel and the show does a really good job of kind of like cloistering you into Carolyn's perspective of like this is how overwhelming

and trusive this feels all the time yes and the way disrupts you like it changes like the fact that your grandmother won't even call you anymore because she assumes you have a drug problem because of something she read that somebody made up and that's true by the way like the are these things were printed about Carolyn the set absolutely it's like that form of like tabloid exploitation to me feels like almost like straight cannibalism right there's like a

society of people who are just feasting on whatever the flavor of the week is and being famous now is so much more it to me is less cannibalism and the very like bread crumb myth making of like stand culture today is so much more like I'm going to cut off a little piece of myself it's like cannibalism versus self kind animal is I don't know but you you're choosing what to slice in theory you're participating in so long this is a cannibal agenda back then it's a cannibal agenda continues

shoes of somebody who is prohibitively famous in 2026 it's just again it bears little resemblance to

“this part of it I think but there's always a costume there's a couple of costumes inside of this show”

whether it's you know from Calvin Klein or or John or something like that of just sort of like the cost of fame yes what the cost of fame is what is um and this and this idea of like this is what you signed up for but how could Carolyn know when that wasn't even John's you know like you see John I don't know playing football with the paparazzi earlier in the season you know what I mean like he has this convivial relationship with them because the firver was lower like he was

people sexy as he's made alive and his fights with Darrell Hannah were tabloid fodder but it was just like it wasn't the frenzy that it became once they had that wedding yes I mean he couldn't possibly know and like the scale of this just became something totally out of control as we said he is also coming to the all this from a perspective of not just I out to this something that he and I haven't commented at least the ways portrayed on the show a very like this

to show past kind of mentality of like things will naturally work themselves out in a lot of cases

yeah the difference is he's coming to that perspective from somebody who's like never had to take

care of anything in their entire life and so he assumes that things will just happen but he's assuming that because his business partner is secretly running the entire magazine and like killing himself to do it and everyone has brought him everything he's ever needed and so the idea the optimism that John seems to operate within this show is like I think it makes for a very enduring quality at times but it also makes him like so desperately out of touch with a lot of what they're trying

to deal with so just to recap you have declared yourself the JFK junior of the ringer literally

“never said that I think that's like I'm the big old dummy of the ringer that's what I said”

we haven't tasted the ringer now I think my favorite episode you said it's is this most recent episode I think mine is the battery park episode not the fight itself but that trip to Hannah's poor with Ethel Kennedy or just like all the little ways in which John is careless with her yes just sort of lightly abandons her in a way that he is completely ignorant of and but we feel it for like you know when she goes down to the breakfast and like his name is

on the chalkboard but hers isn't and then he has an explanation for it but it's just sort of like you couldn't have asked her you couldn't have warned her like he just like or when he takes her else you know elsewhere in the season like when he takes her to Caroline's birthday dinner this is unbelievable like I don't know his JFK junior this would be like a deal breaker for me absolutely someone brought me to a siblings birthday party didn't tell me it was a birthday told me it was a

party but it's a dinner yeah I'm out you're done we you are clearly not operating on planter if you didn't feel the need to disclose that information how do you feel um because I would say you know

this is definitely the JFK and Caroline show but I would say the third lead of the show is Caroline

Kennedy is played by Grace Galmer um a strip a dynasty actress how do you feel like that character is working that's super well yeah yeah she has just kind of become the latest in the Kennedy video game boss fight that Caroline bus progressed through right and it's just like that's a boring way for all of this to sus out especially when I really liked Caroline in some of the opening episodes I thought she again wasn't given a ton to do but had some moments the wake was really good like

“when she and John were talking about being kids together I think the show really does kind of get”

some of the sibling dynamics even in these unusual circumstances but she just become like so much more of a stand-in for the family right that I'm losing interest in that character by the minute this idea that like yeah I'm just trying to figure out what they're trying to do now because this end of the season incident where Caroline takes her daughter down to the lobby to like get some candy in the paparazzi are there and Caroline blames Caroline right um and then that is the

cause of this huge rift between John and and Caroline so I don't know if that's supposed to still be in in effect two years later but like is is the point that they die and Caroline's like I died a strange from my brother to a certain degree or a strange from Caroline I don't know you mentioned John's a business partner we've talked about the Jackie O depiction Katie I talked at length about the Darrell Hannah situation I mean it's tough Caroline Kenny who has the the most

right to sue um the makers of the show I think it's still Darrell Hannah yeah probably who just

difficult to capture without going over the top with it but the writing the performance just like

“literally every aspect of how she's portrayed on screen is not just uncharitable but just”

absolutely wild that's really tough there's this really interesting you know something that Katie and I talked about was I have not been able to confirm it but I have heard some whispers that it might be true that the idea that this show is actually based on Michael Bergen who is the model that Caroline was dating before she dates John based on his book about her and not the sort of more reputable texts that they are sort of claiming this season is based on yeah again I

heard that that might be true I'm not this is not something that I feel journalistically I can put my my full throw is a part behind but when Michael Bergen's you're making a spurious allegation about

a book of spurious allegations that the show might be based on it's just like a termissue of spurious

allegations but so can the lady fingers of my opinion here but Michael Bergen shows a very weirdly does a little bit late in the season to just be kind of like told ya you know what I mean like he gets to show up to be kind of right about something kind of cautionary about something a very weird scene for him to be completely unnecessary and I just don't know why that's in there if not you know as part of this whole Michael Bergen furnished us with all these these details about

how she gets ready in the morning or something like that I don't know I just thought that moment really odd if not for some debt that they owe this person see I'm not even sure it's like a debt they owe kind of thing but to me the the resonance of that scene in the text is oh he is almost certainly the leak who is telling who is feeding some of these tabloids information about specifically the idea that John had proposed right almost no one else knows that information

Carolyn tells him in like a moment of kind of entire self interrogation and then you can disperse it's on it maybe and we're at least just kind of I mean they're not as spursions if they're true house I was curious is that spursions is a great question um on the on this sort of like cautionary tale I warned you front we do have this beach from Anne Missina Freeman Carolyn's mother play

by the absolute legend constant Zimmer in an incredible way wonderful um what did you make of this

how did you feel about this I mean great tension especially for someone who like I didn't know any of this was coming right no idea how her mom might react to any of this yeah and so you know the ultimately like the beset internal family dynamics I found to be a welcome part of the show and their collision with the Kennedys and her standing up in that moment with all of these people surrounded by I mean the close to the thing that America has ever had to like a grand standing multi-generational

seat of power yeah and saying like you know what like I really hope you show up in the way that I'm worried you might not and uh I got to say Carolyn said she was right and she kind of seems a little bit right maybe uh she would have gotten her point across but her she had had t-shirts made like edge lossberg what was the point of the t-shirt it was I don't know but it's a that's a fact that they

“learned about the wedding that he handed out shirts that said that so Carolyn had I think five”

requests for her wedding one of them was no party favors and this guy could not prevent himself giving out a party favor he's like it's a t-shirt it's merch it's fine everything else you want to say about the show what are you what are you expecting from the finale I mean obviously yeah I got bad news yeah I got bad news for you but like okay so this yeah this is a question Katie was asking he's like how much of the crash thing to show if it's called search and rescue does the

crash come at the beginning of the episode and it's really just like the aftermath where we get a don't log Ted Kennedy we get constant zimmer as and for when we get Grace Gummer as Caroline Kennedy like we just have all these side characters because I don't know how interested I am and an episode that is Sarah pigeon late because how I feel about this I think that's a huge concern and a huge problem of the show does go in that direction especially if the notes that we

end on in exit strategy is kind of the last we see or near the last we see this relationship it's obviously tragic but that would just be really hard to stomach I hope we get a little bit more I also again one of the things I loved about this penultimate episode was the way in which may look I'm outside my depth in terms of the literature base that's feeding this show spurious or not I would imagine there's a lot of things said in that room that no one else could

possibly know and so to me I would say all of it like it's all constructed all these behind

“closed doors mom definitely that's what I like about it right so what are the things you are”

doing to kind of fill out the portrait of these people in the relationship and I hope there is a version of that whether it's in the plane or again more on the tarmac or leading up to their flight that kind of continues to fill in these parts of the relationship that are unknowable it's tough

on the tarmac but they're not going to have to your point another moment like her sisters on

the flight like they're not going to have another like just us conversation after that so like if yeah I don't know I have some questions I'm very interested I love that you love this like

“it's not that I love that you love this a show more than I do so yeah I think this is really fun”

for me to see I think I think a lot of it to be honest is the lack of familiarity with the material probably helps in this case I do think Sarah pigeon has just been such a revelation as Carolyn uh I can't get enough of what she's delivering on screen as far as it's just so hard to embody a character who is supposed to have this like ineffable thing right and she has an ineffable thing but like yes maybe this episode's going I mean the more we talk about it because like when

when she's talking about like I fucked up I broke my own rules you want the mysterious sort of like

Mona Lisa yes you know thing that you're chasing and I was vulnerable with you and then you're you don't want it you're tired of it I thought that was really good it's it's a great characterization yeah uh they've really done a lot to make the two of them work together and yeah for like maybe at that point especially in that fight things feel a little still to performance wise between the two of them but together as a pair they have the thing you can't fake like there is

a real magnetic chemistry between them then I will watch as much as of that as we have left unfortunately fleetingly a little not much okay actually before we go Joe of course

“I've one thing I want to put to you there's there's a trope in this episode that I think we”

need a name for and it is when a character is literally trying to outrun their problems in the

way that John does in this show like things shits in the fan I got to go run I got to I got to I got to get some exercise to the radio head to the radio head yeah I have two proposals for you but I'm open to any suggestion before we get there yeah given given then we talked this week on the pit episode about your tennis probabilities would you ever go work out your anger in a game of tennis oh absolutely okay I would I would consider and many people who play tennis would probably agree

every game of tennis is working out something or another you know stuffy graphs or like you make noises kind of moment uh that's not me personally okay it's less about a physical exertion and more just like uh it is a mind-fuck of a sport what's better for exercise you know as the JFK of the ringer right for you the better I write it that too soon the better for you to exercise your demons is in basketball or is it tennis oh it's podcasting this is my therapy jail I don't

want to tell you you're on the clock I think you're a listener we think we put the listeners on the clock for you know okay what are your suggestions for outrunning your problems and I would love any suggestions from our listeners on this to prestige [email protected] I mean one of them simple trauma jog go for a little trauma jog uh the other one Strava of the soul it's a little more abstract wow but do you have a preference between those or do you have any other ideas to throw on the

table already on a Friday afternoon we're trying I think trauma jog is really good because it you know even folks trauma bond which is an actual thing so a trauma jug um I do feel trauma bond to the JFK junior after the show I mean our our guys going through it um I don't think it's a bad way here's my frustration with that I don't think going outside for a jog is a terrible way no to process your like inner turmoil that is just at it feels out of control yeah I don't think you

should then judge how someone else decides to do it right so when he comes home and he's like you're still in front of the television like that's bad and I'm like listen we all process the way we process

“and if you want to go jog and have a cigarette and elicit cigarette you can go do that and if she”

wants to sit shell shocked in front of the television she can do that so I like this non-judgmental space you know especially for a guy who recently liked was trying to get over some breakup trauma by accidentally killing a dog so like I mean you could do better I find I find chaotic emotions our best process through some sort of like physical activity I think that is true I would I would not what's the power ranking like I mean tennis off the table for you clearly so what are we doing

it's like you know like well I like to I'm a weight lifter sure I like to lift heavy objects I've got a weight lifter but I do lift your professional weight lifter yeah lifting heavy objects so what is this turbulent emotions we should we should get John when he was when he was like I'm going for a run and she's like what I was like no I get it like he's going to move his body to like get the emotions out that's great just don't then come back and shame someone else because they

didn't do it that way you know it's very fair I do think it's a little sudden like yeah you

such a everyone in front of the TV like rally together moment it's like the post 9/11 sort of like

“yeah the TV's on all day yes and especially with Diana because the news broke and they did”

not know whether or not she like she was in critical condition but she hadn't died yet so like

people were absolutely glued to their television to find out what was going to happen to her so yeah you can also his whole like who watches TV during the day on a beautiful summer's day all the rules and I and as for it I mean card games but no board games it was a lot yeah

“this family the Kennedy's what are you going to do with them did I ever tell you about the time”

then I like got turned away from the KennedyConf what minute are we into this podcast and you are a Kennedy Refugee I was reminded when John was like some people think Cape Cod is the most beautiful place or whatever um my friend and I were just driving around Cape Cod we

went to Cape Cod during I'd never been we went during COVID because it was just sort of like

“let's go stay in a remote cabin by the shore and like not be around people in the can and then”

I don't know if you did this during COVID but I did a lot of like driving around because you're actually the sealed bubble of the car but you are seeing things at the same time and so we drove

around the Cape and then there was just like we were just like driving around some background all

and said and we were like at a gate and there were scary scary people they're like you're going to have to turn around and I was like oh can we turn around in this driveway here he's like metal and I was like okay so I made like a 900 point turn to like awkwardly turn around and then we like looked above the map we were like oh that was the Kennedy Confidence oh you were in a sniper scope in that moment like they were like what what is her whole deal what is she up to and I

didn't want to eco terrorism is this woman about to perpetrate right in smell with of coffee I'll tell you that I'm just right now it's just salt air all right well this has been a really productive episode of the rest of your life I guess we'll be back to the finale thank you to Rob Mahoney thanks to everyone here at Sikomore is helping us make this show on a Friday afternoon Joe thank you and thank the security guards at the Kennedy Confidence for doing their job

showing up doing the work thanks to the JFK and the ringer Rob Mahoney we'll see you back for more pit bye