‘Love Story’ Finale: Closing Time

No, not at all. I'm so sorry. You're so sorry.

You're all right? Yes, exactly. I'm so sorry. The story is like a story that you just understand. A story about a job or a dream. - A dream? - A dream? I don't feel like a story. - A story about a story? - A dream?

“Like a dream? - A dream? - A dream? - A dream? - A dream? - A dream?”

A dream? - A dream? - A dream? - A dream? I'm Rob Mahoney. - We're here to wrap up a love story that is the J.K. Junior Carolyn Pesett story. The finale has aired. The plane has gone down. We have mourned and we'll be mourning the series. So we're just gonna wrap up the finale. - Okay. It's hard to know how to feel after finale. I mean, to be honest with you, just given the source material and the real life people involved, I don't know that there's a great way to make an episode like this.

It's just a really tall order to begin with. I also don't think that this delivers on everything that it could have been in the case of this episode.

“And this is the impossible conundrum. I don't know how to make this episode and at the same time, this is the one you have to nail.”

I was reading this great interview with Brad Simpson and Nina Jacobsen, who were the producers behind this. They also worked on American crime story. I'm like a huge fan of the way that they think about television. They didn't interview with Chris Murphy at Vanity Fair where they were talking about the challenges of this episode. Obviously, there are million challenges. But one of them that they talked about in the finale of all of these kinds of shows they've done is like, as is the quote from Brad Simpson, he said,

"The last episode is always a challenge because you're telling what is usually the most known part in the story." Right? This is, you know, like,

all the details of how Carol and Dave came at or all this sort of stuff like that. That is like fertile playground for them. But this is a plane crash that we all know that the plane is going to go down. So there's no suspense inside of that.

“So, you know, not that I would want them to try for that. So what story do you tell?”

And they talked about how it was always their plan to put the plane crash at the exact, and it is the like precise midway point of this episode. And I'm curious if you were surprised about how much of a set there was before the crash or how did you feel about how they split that up? I think pleasantly surprised about how much there was before, just because I was a little worried we weren't going to get much of John and Carolyn together,

which to me has just been the charge of the whole show, other than getting on the plane and ultimately meeting their demise.

So the idea that, you know, some of the works for me and some of it doesn't like them in marriage counseling is like a little on the nose at times, but then post marriage counseling, I think is fun and evocative and like digging into the parts of their relationship that are interesting to me. So I'm really glad we got that time and I'm glad in part because I think one of the flaws of this season that really came to Roost in this episode is that I don't know the love story ever built out the architecture around John and Carolyn,

to be like a fully fledged real-ass show. And so then when you take them out of it and you have everyone else mourning them and trying to make sense of what happened, you understandably feel the absence in the way that you're supposed to, but you also are just like, so what is this show now? What am I supposed to be waiting for? What am I supposed to be paying attention to? Am I invested in these side characters who to this point have shown up mostly to like dump exposition? It's a tough spot.

When I talked about that last, you could be talked about how sometimes it feels like they forget these side characters are there until they need to bring them forward to something. I kind of largely agree with you at that point that I think the foundation around these two has been pretty shaky, but I actually disagree in that the back half of this episode, which was a constant Zimmer as Carolyn's mom showed me. It made me cry, which I have not been that emotionally invested in this show thus far, and that's that performance.

And those, you know, the trio of scenes her Edge Lasberg scene, her Carolyn Kennedy scene, and then the Eulogy, the Poetry Reading at the funeral, really, really got to me. And so we're going to talk a bit about constant Zimmer and sort of like that kind of performance, but it really unlocks something for me for this season,

but I think it's sort of, it's weird for me to compare to Shakespeare, but I'm about to compare to Shakespeare in that.

If you go to Shakespeare play and you are watching actors who really understand the emotional truth of what they're saying, you can understand the Shakespeare dialogue even if you don't are not versed in the vocabulary. And if you are watching an actor who is just sort of like hitting the I am a pentameter beats, then you're just sort of like at see with like what are we talking about here.

“So for me, like in an ideal world, Grace Gummer is Carolyn Kennedy, like this is her episode, right?”

Like in an ideal world, and an ideal performance, and she is so much, she's carrying so much of the back half of this episode. That is a performance that like didn't really fully click for me, and I think she is a tough job here because Carolyn Kennedy is a very reserved person.

So she is like playing a very reserved person, whereas like the role of Anne Freeman, Carolyn's mom is like allowed to be as emotional as possible.

But like in that scene and and you know, I'm going to sort of want to zig and zag around constant simmer this thing that really worked for me, but like inside that one on one scene that lengthy one on one scene that they have inside of Carolyn and JK's apartment. You know, confidence has to lift some really clunker lines like my faith has allowed me to make sense of this world helping me to understand the big existential questions, but now there's just deafening silence. I mean, how do you live in a world that doesn't make any sense? That's something she says, and we've talked before about how these characters don't speak the way that humans speak.

No. But there's something about the emotionality of how she delivered that completely connected with me, but then like Caroline then has to come back with a line like, all we know is that time doesn't belong to us nothing is promised, which is like an insane thing for a human to have to say. And like, I like Grace Gummer in general as a as a performance, but like it really struck out to me that like that they're both given this like very flurry clunky dialogue and one of them is just like nailing me in the heart with the emotion and then the other one is kind of missing.

And I was like, oh, that unlocks the whole season for me because like Sarah Pigeon can just like nail this shit and then Paul Kelly can like sometimes do it.

Alice internavola can nail this shit and just like not everyone around them can. So like when you have a performer that can just Bore into the emotional truth of this story, I'm like in and I'm invested. But unfortunately, that's only here and there inside of this season overall. So where I met out, I think. I think the contrast you're highlighting within that scene of those two women in particular is just so tough. It, it really like flashing back and forth as they are delivering that dialogue. You feel the palpable difference and you nailed it.

Joe, I think just not only believing and understanding the emotionality as a performer and managing to channel it through this. I just I wrote down so many Caroline lines in this episode because she she in particular is given to some absolutely horrific ones. Yeah, really tough. But that's part of it, but it's also just like part of the larger project of making a TV show or making a movie like the smoke and mirrors are the magical part.

“And so much, when we talk about things like suspension of disbelief, I think we get bogged down and like plot mechanics, right?”

Is this plot believable? But so much of it is like what takes you out of the magic of the moment? And Consas Zimmer is constantly reeling you back in with the emotion with like with her performance is just so, so dialed in. And I think where I want to extend, I mean, Grace Gummer, a little grace, if you'll allow it. I was talking to Dev before for this pot about the initial moment when Caroline finds out about the plane. Yeah, and in that moment, I think he's terrific.

And there's not a lot of dialogue in that scene and I don't think that's an accident. And as soon as it becomes time where she has to deliver, I mean, just at absolute best things that are so painfully direct. They're just like stating the themes of the show. It does her no favors is doing no one in this show any favors and all of the smoke and mirrors in the magic just leads the room. So if I didn't mention that because, you know, we talk about this sometimes if we talk about the pit or just like the pit just says the thing, right?

And we're just like, okay. This episode so just says the thing so many times.

“And I think the worst one actually is given to Consas Zimmer when she is talking about Carolyn and how she says like she became someone she didn't recognize, right?”

And then she says that person will be immortalized forever. I only wish she had lived long enough to be remembered for something else. And then that is just the show padding itself back to be like, hey, we did it equal time to John and Carolyn. If anything, we gave more attention to Carolyn than we did to John and aren't we better than time magazine and all the other press that like, you know, buried not only Carolyn but Lauren like when when when and their mother is talking to Edge lostberg.

Thinking about Carolyn, I was talking to a pal of my kitty rich who did the first episode of our coverage with me.

And we're sort of texting last night when we were watching the episode and she reminded me and I had forgotten that Carolyn Kennedy is daughter. Talk to you on this lostberg, just died at the end of December like the age of 35 really young from leukemia. So it's just like you think about Carolyn Kennedy. Like you think about James K. Jr. and and everything they, you know, Tell us about the tragedy of losing his father that young age, all of the expectations, all of these things, but then you think about Caroline again in this episode who like so clearly then has to deal with losing her brother.

“Yes, and then if we know the extra textual information that she like lost her her daughter and it's just like thinking I was just projecting a lot of that knowledge about Caroline Kennedy on to the performance, but overall I think.”

I think this episode will really knock to me off my feet. If that Caroline performance had really been able to connect with me the same way. The Anne depiction did at the end of year. Yeah, that's one area where I feel like they did a good job of boiling down a lot of these people to unessential struggle, unessential quality, right? Like what is the thing about Caroline Kennedy that is interesting that we want to dig into in this idea that she is experiencing profound loss across her life across years and like in ways that are shocking and that no human being would be equipped to deal with.

That's something really interesting to just dive into as a writer and then they never did the part where you kind of hide it, it's just like it's just going to be text.

So we're just going to say it that it just never felt it never feels earned when you just put it out there. I think that's part of the problem and Caroline all throughout the season, I think has been put in spots to have conversations that are just not that interesting. If you'll indulge me one other line reading Joe the one the one you read from constant simmer I actually she's so good in delivering it she tricked me into thinking is this a good line. I know I know what I'm saying she's so good that even like a clunker like that you're like I was like choked up anyway.

“The Caroline one that really got me was and I think one of the big flaws at this episode are the two parallel sister conversations that happen with Carolyn and John talking to their sisters neither of which just work because they're so direct.”

And while Caroline is talking to John she says you met someone who wasn't willing to control it to what you needed and you fell in love. And now those qualities that fire that self possession aren't serving you anymore and you're crying foul are you fucking kidding me. That scene was tough honestly like quite tough. All right, let's go back to the beginning. So I want to go back to actually actually to the very beginning the show because something that Katie and I talked about and I think you and I talked about on this a little bit last week was like the decision to start.

With the the tarmac start with them getting on the plane in episode one. But actually where episode one starts is inside the manicure scene.

And so to think about the decision to put a so inside Carolyn's head of her anxiety why like first of all she's being hunted by the paparazzi.

“So we get the you know the flash bulbs and the shots from the streets and then we watch the reason why she not only went to get her nails done,”

but got them read on inside of that appointment is this tremendous anxiety and pressure to fit in with the candidates and be accepted. And we know what it was like for her to go to Hannah's port before and all of this sort of stuff like that and so. Putting us inside her head and then I didn't know like watching that scene. I didn't know what we have her mother reveal later in the episode, which is that the you know there is a version of the story in the press that. Carolyn's vanity you know in the way that she spits out that word her vanity right that Carolyn's vanity is what delayed the flight which is what caused the crash et cetera.

And and sort of reframing of that is like actually is your fucked up fuck up brother who like you know was was doing something beyond his skill set but to to to start with that manicure scene and to start with a so inside of her head and to watch her be like. And I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea.

I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea.

I think that's a great idea. I think that's a great idea. And so there's a lot of like groundwork being laid within their relationship in the season that really pays off it. Yeah, it's more for me about everything else around it and then once they're gone how are we how are we making a show at that point. Yeah, the return to the restaurant.

I I love because I identify like that was my favorite scene and I think it remains my favorite scene of the entire show because I do think you know and and.

Fulter and last couple episodes for me, I go back to that scene and that date and their connection and how like.

“I talked about this all the time when I talked about like a flee back season two, how flee back season two is a show that like had me actively like leaning closer to this.”

I mean as I was watching it because I was just like so drawn in and so invested by the chemistry like that's god tier of course like level. You know how dare I talk about flee back season two inside the context of this, but I did find myself in that initial scene, leaning leaning towards this green sort of like.

Wanting to be a part of that conversation and and so I didn't find it cheap at all.

I thought it was really well done the way they went back to it inside of this episode. So and even returns like some of the very specific conversation they were having not just like you know the bit about the laminated menu, but the science over their respective heads and kind of like what what they are putting out in the world and what they're withholding from the world. Which is such a core part of both of these characters in the way they've been presented this season right, who is who is interested in projecting what to whom is one of the central concerns of the show.

Right, but again Sarah pigeon is so good.

That when she's like the sign actually reads like she's not as tough as she thinks and you're like, okay.

“Yeah, okay, so let's let's get to the crash. This is something I had a lot of preparation about I mean something that I think we mentioned, but I want to underline how strange it is they did not release this episode.”

To press they might have like made a few exceptions because you know like the F had their interview with the producers up like fairly quickly so like. I think they're like a few media outlets who had it early for the most part they held this screen it back from press from I heard like internally inside of you know like like you know it was just something that they were hiding the ball on and like you know that's really rare especially this day and age and especially like with a show. It's based on a true story where everyone knows what's going to have like to bring people inside baseball a little bit. You might do this with game of thrones right you might do this with a big and big surprise ending of some kind.

They don't even do with a game of threat like they used to do it I would say that they used to do with like game of thrones they didn't give out screeners at all for like the last couple seasons or like. Better call Saul is one where they held back or something like that so there's like a few exceptions but like for the most part these days the networks and the streaming companies like need the press a bit more than they used to just to like get the word of just to permeate in the media landscape and so I'm seeing less of a like.

You can't have these episodes from streamers than I then I used to like ten years ago and so I was just like I wasn't upset about I was just like quite surprised because I was like we all know there's a plane crash so then I was you know it's at my wheels turning I was like. Okay are they are they just like worried about how people are going to respond to possible crash and you know in that interview and you know Brad the producers did say like oh yeah we're brazed you know the Kennedy family is not going to be happy about this.

For all of the conversations that the show has taken us behind closed doors to conversation we couldn't possibly know the content of we certainly could not possibly know. What the conversation was like inside of that plane right because just those three people and those three people did not make it out of that plane crash alive. You really have to figure out how they want to tell that if they even want to take us into that cockpit how long do they want to put us in there and what do they want to show us and and what we do know is is the sort of the the recap that we get the spatial disorientation diagnosis like that is in.

The accepted diagnosis of what happened in this flight that that John who was not a super super super experienced fire. There was Hayes there was darkness other people were flying that night described it described the conditions spatial disorientation which is something I had never heard of is like you know you they described it really well in the show it's like going on or away you just like.

“Your sense and I think they did a really good job with him but the question and and we were talking about this a little bit before we started recording but like the question is of.”

Lauren and Carolyn inside of that moment because both Lauren and the back seat and Carolyn here in in the front seat with him. And it's like experiences sort of like zen just breathe reaction to it which you know is definitely certainly a choice what do you make of that as like a decision to interpret how they would have responded it does it sit well with you what do you think. I think part of the reason why it sits it's it's okay with me I'm not thrilled I'm not thrilled frankly about anything in terms of that scene and what's going on in the cockpit and I think some of that is by design because I.

Yeah, dramatizing it to a degree that for me personally like I don't mind a fictional I like a lightly to medium fictionalized version of a person to create a different portrayal of a character.

Yeah, I'm totally cool with it.

“I think even for someone like me taking us into the cockpit and having them say anything big or important in what would be the final moments of their lives would feel like really distasteful.”

You're again caught in this conundrum of like are we going to show this at all, which I do think in the experience of watching it the sort of like meta tension of are they actually going to show this playing go down.

Are they actually going to show a collision, an explosion are we going to see these people die on screen.

I think it puts viewers in a really odd spot and not necessarily a bad one, but one that also might contribute to them withholding just to make sure no one knows going in what they're walking into this episode. And then once you have that meta tension, how do you resolve it in a way that doesn't feel gross? I really don't know what they were supposed to do there. Yeah, I mean, the option is to just not show them, you know, show them getting into the plane, but not in the cockpit at all. But the disorientation, I do feel like not only telling us that it's like going under a wave, but feeling and seeing the lack of visibility from the plane. I do think it's it like it really does kind of anchor you in that sort of panic, but then when the characters aren't responding with panic.

“I think that's where you're getting that sort of dissociation you're mentioning.”

It's interesting that like this description that they have inside the episode, spatial disorientation based on your impaired brain rather than your reality. Being taken under by a wave showing, you know, Paul Kelly's performance is John in that moment where we're watching like sort of this crickled brow this like almost like. You know, head empty, no thoughts sort of like, you know, we've talked about the way in which John is, you know, the hunk flunk sort of like this kind of dummy performance to a certain degree.

I wish, you know, for all of us saying they just went and said the thing, I wish they had tied that in a way that made better sense to me inside of the themes of John and his, I mean, it's there inside of the show, this idea.

“Based on your impaired brain rather than your reality and Carolyn constantly saying like you're the way in which privilege is inoculated for you from the world.”

Your experience with the paparazzi is different from my experience with the paparazzi, your experience at high end as port is different from my experience at high end as port. You have gone through life expecting that people things will work out for you and so they have. And so there is a way in which the show is sort of laid track for like that's his demise right his demise is he's unable to actually connect with reality and he's in that cockpit in the first place because he thinks he can do something that he is actually not fully trained to do.

So all of that is in the text of the show I just wish I didn't get I didn't emotionally connect to that like oh no here it is this like tragic flaw inside of this person taking not only taking him down but taking these two women down with him. Yes, I don't feel like they really sort of made that a character beat as much as I wanted it to be it felt more circumstantial inside of the moment. I can I completely agree with you. I think a lot of a lot of those moments in the plane feel so tepid in a way that yeah you're waiting for some reaction some response in either direction whether it's misplay certainty or outright panic but like you never really get to any of those notes.

I do just think this is one of those areas though where I wonder if they got a little squeamish about putting thoughts into those characters heads in that moment and it is as simple as that of like.

I agree with you if these were totally fictional characters tying a story beat to to the way that they ultimately pass and like the decisions they make leading up to it that's good storytelling.

Can you do that here and frankly like do you have the guts to do it with a story that means this much to so many people it's it's a lot it's a lot to ask and it's a lot to put out there. I guess but on the other hand like we were talking about this last week like anytime you've seen a Diana story happened like her death. You know and they talked about this a lot in the crown when they finally like did Diana the Diana death sort of moment inside of the crown where they were like. We didn't want to go into that tunnel with them so we didn't go into the tunnel like we followed them up until the tunnel and then we were like we're not going to go into there you know and work as show you what the final moments were inside of the car we're going to show you a bit but we're not going to show you like it so like.

That is such a clear like this is the narrative we've been spending so far my my brain slightly please forgive me survivor cooked right now but like.

“While watching sorry so sorry I think as an electric survivor but like watching survivor 50 is an exercise in watching.”

Reality editing because every episode of survivor someone. Their game is over and so it is the job of the editors to show you what are the fatal mistakes that they made along the way so like right. We as as viewers are watching episodes in advance you start sort of tracking these narratives and you're like what you know what are they trying to show us.

Stakes are obviously incredibly different on survivor versus this but like.

Time these final moments of Carolyn just saying like just breathe back to John showing up at her apartment earlier in the season panicking about his mother's death and her that moment of their beginning of their relationship real beginning of their relationship not their first date but the just sort of like. Just breathe him trying to kiss her her being like what are you doing not like this slow down slow down that's that's the sort of attempted close of another loop that they tried to do here but again I.

I think I'm with you where I just felt like wrong being in the cockpit at all with them you know I don't think there was any. Waiting for trying for them here you know I think it made this in better off if we did not to rewrite the show but if we had cut off at a different point in terms of our access to those characters. In part because of the potential capability involved right like the plane goes down in part because John is not equipped to fly it in that moment and this is to me the biggest difference with the Diana story right like.

There is a level of you don't want to go in the tunnel with Diana just because of how horrible it is in turns out. But she is the victim like surely the victim of those circumstances John is at minimum are participants in his own death and the killing of these two women and so or the death of these two women I should say.

Which I think just makes the whole exercise like that much murky year and that much messier in terms of unpacking exactly what these characters are going through in that second.

“But if you're going to make the show you have to be ready to wrestle with those things and so those those those objections like the problems that we're having those are those are the arguments you raised before.”

You know even pick up this show in the person right maybe when you're cracking the story in the first place but if it's all here in the finale and it's not delivering on again the one thing you have to get right it's hard to not hold that against the show. I've been thinking a lot about American crime story the O.J. season. Just the very best version of what they've done here and especially with things like and talking inside this episode about how she wished. You know the world had better understood her daughter the the extremely sexist sort of like it was her vanity it was her manicure that that caused the crash or whatever the case may be you know versus the much.

I actually think subtler way that the O.J. season took a character of person like Martial Clark as portrayed by Sarah Paulson and just showed us didn't tell us but just showed us the extremely nasty sexist tabloid coverage of her as a person inside when she is like. The avenging angel of this story and is painted in this way but also that show had a really hard. Needle to thread because of the O.J. case we're not going to like show. The murder we're not going to say one way or another whether he did it because we can't.

Right say that so we can only.

“Tell you a story where you have to draw your own conclusions about what actually happened there.”

Again because you know a man or woman died and and a you know a family is devastated and a nation is enthralled but like. All of these stories American crime stories this which is essentially an American crime story even though it's position is a love story. It's job is also to hold a mirror up to us as there's like why do we have these foolish fascinations why do we have these like when you watch the crowd of people outside of John and Carolyn's apartment. And there are sort of like ecstasy of grief you know what I mean this just sort of like what it means for us likeologically to just sort of like.

Mayor innate in this public. Deification or grief and all the sort of stuff like that and then Caroline as this like singular actually emotionally affected person walking like. Parting that crowd and walking through it. I thought that image was really again a dialogue less moment that image was like really potent inside of this episode. And I think this is why overall the decision for this season to focus so much more in Carolyn.

I think pays off in huge ways throughout the season and including in those ideas right if you're going to show a mirror if you're going to hold up a mirror to us and ask us to interrogate.

Tadwood culture and why we're interested in cases and deaths like this and why not just there's this crowd of people outside there apartment, but it's almost like one crowd has been substituted for another of like the paparazzi was there and now it's these mourners and still just a big crowd of people out there. And Carolyn is the one who has to reckon with all of those differences in her life for John these are just facts right like the paparazzi will follow him wherever he goes. Carolyn is the one who is affected on a psychological level to the point that she becomes a shut-in to the point that she's second guessing herself that she is picking a new color for her nails at the salon to fit in because she doesn't want to be too ostentatious.

It's like she is the avatar for so much of what we're meant to take away and interrogate within the show. And if you're if you're going to pick a character to do it in an actor to do it like serve pigeon delivered on all of that stuff at a really high level I wish the rest of the show kind of was up to it, but I don't know that it always was.

I'm sure you did because you're a person alive who looks at the internet sometimes you saw the the photos this week of the rock in the moana.

“Yeah, I heard from our pals Nora and Jody about it like you know about my like expert take on the wig watching the rock, but it got it you know something I think that it was like I think something that.”

Nora nor Prince Yada I think said to me is like she was like wigs have both gotten like much much better and then also way they're either way way worse or much much better and there's no like sort of like it's kind of fine middle ground anymore. And so it's the I was thinking about Carolyn beset inside of this about Sarah pigeon because like Sarah pigeon is a is a woman dark her hair was such like me supporting character in the season not just the way that she was constantly like flipping around and playing with it.

I'm also like one of the great hair flipers of all time what's she put it out there I really great but also the way in which like she goes from this like sort of dirty blonde color to this like flat iron. Barbie which is what Carolyn Kenny Carolyn beset Kenny also did in her life of course so I was like I was like was that I was like what was a wig and what wasn't was like something I was sure I was like surely this exists somewhere they put her in this wig as because I was like when they when they showed us the manicure scene again I was like that's a wig I was like that is a wig and so.

What I found out is that they had put out a photo of her in that wig and the internet did not like it and so they were like oh no we're going to have a problem her hair is so iconic.

“So what they did for sort of the rest of the show is they and Rob forgive me for taking you so deep on this but.”

No joke keep going what what what what what what else do we have how deep can we go they put 400. K tip extensions in her hair. So they used her natural hair they they died it blonde her but they put 400 individual extensions in her hair which would have taken. Just an unfathomable amount of time that's like a Frankenstein level costume commitment that's in so like. So they want to like jazz up her hair and make it look like you know and they did like I was obsessed with watching her hair and but it's also kind of her natural hair so she can like flip it around.

Caroline looks real but there's like 400 extra strength. They individually placed inside of there and so but it like it to go back to this sort of like leaning into Paul Kelly as this sort of like empty suit depiction of Dave K Jr. leading into her hair being like. This natural part of who this physical woman is versus this like. The way that looks kind of wavy on top of her in these final moments is like a great sort of meta you know way to tell this story of this woman who becomes a Barbie you know at the end of the day.

It's so true I mean yeah it does kind of complete the look and complete the picture. I just keep coming back to Paul Kelly though like I.

“I think the chemistry is so real and very palpable and I think they're obviously scenes and extended stretches of the season they really really clicked for me because of the magic between them as performers.”

I left this episode wondering though because I feel like he's just kind of overexposed over the course of the season. If this had been a movie instead of a limited series and it's a it's a two hour runtime in which he is JFK Jr and yeah he has like some monologues and some big reactions that maybe. He delivers well or he doesn't whatever it may be but would just the pure volume of it.

Love it I had a similar idea but it was just that this season should have been shorter this season should have been six episodes max is what is what I think and I think that would have helped some of the problem.

I also think like a lot of things should be movies instead of limited series these days so I'm not I'm not objecting to it at all but.

Let's not take away from our livelihood. You know if you need a good number of limited series so like let's not keep things going through the machine. But, Steve's movie podcast that's true but yeah I think also like it really clicks on me from you when I found out that like he was such a last minute ditch casting effort for them that they like did not they had their other actors and they did not have a john and they and they finally cast him. I was thinking a lot in this final episode of like what if they had cast someone who looked less like him but just was a better actor you know what I mean and just sort of like sacrifice that sort of like facsimile attempt for someone who could better match their pigeons ability because if you think about someone like.

I mean I you know I go back to the crown and it's just sort of like. Joshua Connor both does and doesn't at all look like a younger Prince Charles but Joshua Connor as young Prince Charles is like one of the best things I've ever seen on television.

“And I think it's like more important to get that performance than it is especially if you're doing what you said which is taking dramatic liberties with a real person.”

You're not giving us a documentary you're giving us the framework of a story we know and then you have written these behind the scenes moments or try to make larger character arcs that are.

For the sake of the drama I support all of that. Then I think you can get a little like loose with who you put in that role and especially we talked about this with. The trap American crime story eventually followed it fell into which is like you really don't need to put like prosthetics on these people you really don't need to like. SNL any of this stuff so I think you know Paul Kelly who looks so much like. Jacob Junior or a young Richard gear but then you think about like what a young Richard gear would do with this role and you're like fuck that's just like.

“In the strat sphere of a better show than the one we got so it would have been something else I mean I think first of all like I don't blame anybody who would be in the room with Paul Kelly at any point or seeing him on the test like.”

Magnetism that that man must have in a room has to be incredibly powerful and I do keep pulls off a lot of this part just not the parts that would really elevate it into being like an all time thing you would return to over and over.

And the contrast point I'm glad you brought the crown because.

Something that I was reminded of in the first episodes of this show was one of my favorite parts of the crown which is the the princess Margaret Tony meeting of Matthew good Vanessa Kirby and like how I'm charged that episode is I mean holy shit just smoldering. Yeah, yeah. Matthew good does not look like Anthony Armstrong Jones basically at all as far as I can tell like right no resemblance whatsoever but to your point is one of my favorite working performers and is like so compelling on screen.

“I think you raise a great idea of like this might have been a case where you accept some of the trade-offs someone who's like.”

Also very handsome but handsome in a different way or has a different kind of energy I think might have also worked here and I think you would have. I think it would have what else do we do with the ringer honestly but like I think that it would have posed a lot of problems with them initially because they got a lot of shit from the internet large anyway for like. She doesn't look enough like Carolyn she's not as stylish as Carolyn. There was all of this push back of the set photos and Nina and Brad talked about this in the interview where they're like oh ho ho how the tables have turned everyone thought we were doing a shit job but now people are putting.

We've really done we really did it so like I love I love Nina and Brad so I love that for them but like I do think they would have gotten a bunch of like what the fuck do you mean. You've cast this person's JFK junior he doesn't look like him at all. And then if the performance is you know outstanding then I think it quiet all of those initial questions that is time to time and again with casting so. It would have it would have caused more problems from them upfront but I think would have paid off better dividends but like you know they're sitting here with a very successful show so they're like what the fuck.

Rob and Joanna I don't know so yeah I think a lot of were hitting and my experience watching the season is like the first couple episodes I think Sarah pigeon and Paul Kelly and really the execution of the show made a lot of this stuff look really easy. The set design is so good the period stuff is so great we talked about the soundtrack their chemistry clicks right out of the gate at least did for me.

Complete and substantive and fair to the people involved and also delivers on the promise of like giving us a fuller portrait of the like a version of these characters that's been.

Refracted through memoir and time and our understanding of these people but it's like I don't know how you do all that I keep coming back to it over and over but I think this show might have just been an impossible task and they took a stab at it and sometimes they're successful and sometimes weren't I think one thing that really did. I mean Sarah I think is solid rock solid throughout but I think really did Paul a favor in the first couple episodes is like how I still think the worst part of the season is name we watch is as Jackie I think that was like genuinely like.

Terrible performance from a old an act of sign love on all the time like yeah it's. So some of these this is not the only one they only watched like she takes some swings we respected I respect I respect the ambition of what she often tries to do. This one did not work at all but I thought she was so.

“Bad we love and respect yeah call what it is that I was like well as suit is Jackie's gone this show is just going to get a lot better I think that's what I thought it was just like and and like.”

That's what all john's girlfriend's thought to her fairly. I want to give like one little shout out before I move on Joe to the scoring for the show like the central theme theme is so good. It's so good and I think over the course of the show proved to be just incredibly versatile where you change the key a little bit you slow down you speed it up you you layer it with other sound in kind of the soundscape and all of a sudden it can be. You can be the first state music me cute music it can be like your mother just died music it can be we're at the funeral for john and Carolyn music like somehow the fact that that core melody could play on all those situations I mean price designer from the national score this show I just think did a pretty amazing job with it.

It was so good in those first couple episodes it was so.

Remarkably good in that it like felt immediately like recognizable I'm like historically kind of terrible at like. You know in shows like game of thrones like those composers will you know compose individual character themes that will like come up again and again and I'm like kind of historically terrible at identifying them I friends could be like oh my god did you hear how they blended. I could not tell I am like I'm a depth of that kind of stuff but. The theme for the show was so immediately like memorable that I was like did they still I like I was like is this lifted from something else but yeah I was like is this you know.

Did they do what they were doing the nice input like the theme to stargate and every single movie trailer and you're just like yeah I feel it but. Did you ever see that show the adventures of brisco county junior do you know what I'm talking about.

“I think you know I did probably know of course I did.”

I'm glad that you did in part because the theme for that show just became like the theme for the Olympics somehow over time. But the way this stuff gets repurposed is truly remarkable right but this one this is a this is just think yeah they really really nailed it with that okay. The side quest that I proposed to late last night after I watched this episode. It was I thought constant simmer not only like stole this episode but kind of stole the the entire series for me to a certain degree. But more than anything like constant simmer shows up early in the season I was like oh they got constant simmer to like play her mom okay that's.

Interesting what an incredible actress to be in kind of like a thankless role and then she had like this speech to give the wedding and I was like okay I can kind of see my constant is here but the way that she just like. Put her hand on the throat of the show for the last like half of this episode I was like this is why you hire constant simmer we're still confused my dog log is here as Teddy Kennedy.

“I think she's confused why he's here in some of these scenes I have to imagine there's something cut like I have to imagine there was more for him to do that they cut out I really have to imagine that but.”

I'm like okay I get it I get my constant simmer you know is here also in reading some of the behind the scenes stuff it's clear you know as is the case with most older version of TV shows they were writing as they were going.

So that's not always a case of limited series oftentimes a limited series is fully written before you start shooting because the episode.

Ask is shorter and the way things get green lit these days blah blah that's not the case with this because Sarah pigeon has talked about like oh we were shooting episode seven then then we got the script to it episode eight so they hadn't seen all the scripts.

Basically in giving the answer about and and Caroline in this episode and so I really think they were like hell we got constant simmer let's use constant simmer that's what it feels like to me.

So my only question about that Joe is like have you not seen Unreal you know like are you not familiar with her work. Did you not already know. So Mike the the exercise of proposed to you was let's come up with a loose list of so that's why they cast that person in that role kind of performance or as or like TV closers or something like that which was like a nebulous prompt we might come up with some answers that don't like again this was like a late last night ask.

“What did you come up with to answer that you want to start with Rob. Yeah, I've got a pretty long list I think I'm going to start with one we can both agree on which is Fiona Shaw in and/or.”

Where Fiona Shaw shows up and it's like love Fiona Shaw. Okay, I'm glad she's here. Yeah, and then yeah, when it comes hologram monologue time. Yeah, we're fucking cooking Joe like we're absolutely cooking and counterpoint because of the flip experience Fiona Shaw in true detective night country where I was waiting for this moment.

I was waiting for the wise Fiona Shaw here moment and I just never came.

It's interesting because like this this particular exercise is really for the sickos who's been too much time watching film and television and because like you know. I don't know that the gem pop is out there being like constant Zimmer. But again, if you know you know, yeah, this is this is for the ball knows I guess so like I will say. Something very recent I don't I don't think you you watched it, but we did cover it on this feed.

In depth by lightning the the John Garfield show like so much was made of the cast that show an incredible cast inside of that show, but.

Betty Gilpin is there playing the Krisha Garfield playing the wife character. Yeah, and this is an answer I came up with a couple different times where I'm just sort of like why is Betty Gilpin here Betty Gilpin who's just like incredible and everything that she does. Why is she here as like the wife, but then spoiler alert for history.

“John Garfield dies and it's very similar role where like she then becomes the emotional full chrome for the final episode of the show and I was like, ah, that's why Betty Gilpin is here playing the Krisha Garfield.”

We appreciate Garfield's an amazing name though. It was just just on the sides alone I might take that part. And he called her I think he called her creed. I think that was her nickname which is a no creed. You hate it. Okay, I think that was James. I think it's come on. I could be wrong. Anyway, that's Betty Gilpin and death by lightning. That's one of my answers what else you got. I think that's a great one. What do I want to go next? How about Jake Johnson and Krisha Milliotta in mythic quest? Yeah, which is your familiar with mythic quest like all of the standalone episodes are among the best of the series.

But it's very much like, wait, why are these people on this random Apple TV show about game design doing a plot that seems to have nothing to do with anything else is happening fast forward now or later and I am a fucking wreck. I am in pieces. That's one of the best episodes of television that's really cool. Really, really good. I was trying to figure out a place to put Krisha Milliotta on this list because, you know, like, what I do it for Fargo or the Penguin for Black Mirror or how I make mother for that.

Yeah, but that's a different model because it was like an introduction, but you became very clear very quickly like, oh, this is why they cast. Yeah, she's one of those actors. I would definitely call her TV Closer a term I've just made up. But similarly to that mythic quest answer, I would say Nick Offerman and Murray Bartlett who are like, why are you here for one episode of the last of us playing characters inside the video game who are just like not even on screen, but like, you know, barely on screen like via letters, known via letters and it's like, oh, then you watch a long, long time and you're like, oh shit.

“Nick Offerman wins an Emmy and Murray Bartlett gets nominated for an Emmy and probably they should have split that Emmy between them and it's just an incredible art television. You're like, oh, that's why they got from an Emmy Bartlett are here.”

I have a couple more, Joe, they're like, I don't want to say too much about because talking too much about it would be a spoiler in a sense for a lot of what happens in these shows. I have twist ones too. Okay, what do you have. So, yeah, I do a mythine and watch movement, that's all my list. 100%. Check. What is this later in Mr. Robot? I think as a show, we don't talk about a lot, but very clear, very quickly why he's on that show. And also Ted Danson on the good place where like Ted Danson will just take a random sitcom role now and again, but you can tell when he's really got something to work with and that show really gives him a lot to work with.

Bless you for not wanting to spoil watching a show that came out in 2019. We try love that about you. Similar on a similar note. I mean, we're both weeded heads. Did you watch a dollhouse, right?

Alan Tudick of dollhouse. That is also a twist that I don't necessarily, but like that is just sort of like, what is Alan Tudick doing here? I don't really like, and they're like, oh, he should know he's a leaf on the wings. He's got something coming up. I see why Alan Tudick is in this episode of dollhouse. Amy Acre also. I think it's similarly on dollhouse. There's a lot of like, that's another one where it's like, if you were plugged in to the very particular frequency and troop casting of like a weed and verse like property.

And you see the familiar faces pop up and you're like, that's weird that this person is here and they just don't have a lot to do. And then come up as come the penultimate episode. Right. They're given like a huge moment. Who else do you want to highlight here? How about Regina King for the leftovers as well, where it's like that's another part that on first blush. It's like, what is this like, why would Regina King be on a show like this, what place is she going to go with this character that seems on surface like kind of bland and then turns into one of my favorite characters in television history and one of my one of the great performances because it's Regina King.

I have a similar, she's so good. Um, this is another like sort of like, it wasn't obscure balldover, but it was like, I remember I was podcasting about breaking bad. And Jesse plummens shows up in later seasons and I was like, they got landry, but I was the person I was podcasting with had not watched part of it like so he was just like, oh, yeah, this guy's here, he's playing Todd who's just like this kind of this guy who's here.

“I was like, but it's Jesse Plevin. So like, it's got to mean something and then he had these characters as he real turn on that show and you're like, that's why that's why you get landry over here.”

Jesse Plevin's on breaking bad. That was like, that was a real like, and it happens a lot in podcasting. I think because you're just sort of like, you like really early in a season, you'll like tab someone and you'll like tap a an actor and you're like, why is this person here? It has to mean something. That's the sort of like lawn order like spoiler casting idea, right? You have to sort of like, you have to be the murderer or a huge red hearing to put this person inside of this episode. So they're just too notable at a certain point. I think that's kind of the two categories, right? There's the actors you know and feel overqualified for the material they're given.

Right. And then there's sort of the characters that are just sort of lingering around and kind of have stuff to do, but it's never that notable or interesting until all of a sudden it pops.

And you see what makes that performer really special.

“I think for that ladder category, I also want to shout out Brad Durriff in Deadwood, where doc Cochran is like a nice supporting character.”

And then there's a plot line, late in season one, where deadwood is like this, you know, emerging frontier town and the minister of this frontier town gets a brain tumor. And is not only dying, but an extraordinary pain. And doc Cochran, the one doctor and town played by Brad Durriff has this incredible like pleading with God monologue to kill like please let this man die. Yeah, that is, I mean, Rex me every time I see it. I don't know what it is about me or my Catholic upbringing, they gravitate toward these like men yelling at God monologues, but here I am yet again on this podcast, telling people to watch in this case deadwood.

It's really interesting because in the case of Brad Durriff, there is this, again, because he's like an Oscar nominated actor right, but there is this question of like okay, but is it a point in his career. Yeah, where like this is the best Brad Durriff could get at this point in his career has he been forgotten and deadwoods like we didn't forget we know what Brad Durriff could do so we're going to let him cook, but you're going to have to wait a minute to get there. Anyone from West Wing because like West Wing has so many notable guest stars, but I didn't know that really was the same if like a John Goodman or a Glenn close shows up you know for like a couple episodes and you're like.

I always kind of knew why John Goodman or Glenn close to you or something like that.

Did you have any of something like that? That almost felt like a different thing to me because it's like John Goodman's not really on the show until he's on the show and so it's like that is kind of his emergence and so there's no moment of wondering like why is John Goodman delivering these random lines that any other actor could deliver. Could because of the way he enters it, but you're right, there are a lot of guest stars. I just think it might be like a slightly different category on this very fabulous idea that I came up with last night.

That's what we do around here. I would add. Oh yeah, Carol Burnett in the final season of Better Call Saul. Oh sure. Like when they talked about casting her, they were like, well, why wouldn't you take the opportunity to work with Carol Burnett in Better Call Saul but she plays this sort of like.

Daughtering older woman and the entire show. Saul Goodman Jamie McGill has had this like way with older older folks older women particularly, but then she like she has such a a like.

“Come back to pivotal important role to play in the end of that story.”

But at first you just sort of like, oh, did they just like want to hang out with Carol Burnett so they got her to play this like.

Would you do? Yeah, I sure would. What else do you have? I have one final one and it's one that we covered on this feed relatively recently, which is when Sam Rockwell shows up in White Lotus season three, which.

That's an easy end, you know, you know, a guy who knows the guy on the same rock walls on your show.

But yeah, like he doesn't just show up to show up. He's given some rather medium material if you'll allow it. And I just think that there's there's a lot there to for people like us to unpack, but also to kind of wait for and deliver on a moment like that. Medium materials is I'm sorry. He said to go. It wasn't planned. It just kind of came out that way.

“All right, I will wrap up with this year's Oscar winner for best actress Jesse Buckley on Chernobyl specifically, I think, because at that point, I had seen her in Wild Rose and more in peace and she's so good in Wild Rose.”

I love Wild Rose and and I'd seen her. She did like a live performance of the music from Wild Rose at South by and it was just I was just like, this is person is like so incredible.

Yes, and then she shows up in Chernobyl a completely stacked incredible cast of incredible veteran actors and I was just like, oh, she's new is she's young. They've just cast her here to play this like wife character, but then the character that she plays, Lou Miller, like becomes for me, the emotional just like. Like stab me through the heart asked by a part of Chernobyl. You know, by episode three, you're just sort of like holy shit, but that was one where I was just sort of like is Jesse Buckley to knew that she's just sort of like taking whatever an HBO show.

She's very new but they were like, no, we saw Wild Rose were like, we saw, we know what she could do. No worries. So it's like a don't worry. We're going to use them kind of things.

So I'm glad that the promise with that with constant Zimmer was delivered.

“I mean, when she gets her chance, I would say all of the lead up that we've already talked about in terms of, you know, her conversation with Caroline heard kind of negotiations about the remains like all that stuff is really powerful.”

Her at the funeral is something else entirely. And again, it's like it's a vine reading of a poem. And so like it is put in a different place from the rest of the dialogue of the show. But it floors you in a way that this episode needed something like that and it needed a character and a performer like her to bring it. And it's one of those things where like, who, you know, we'll see if interviews they reveal this, but like who knows if the original intention was to have her readings sort of narrate the rest of the show or if her reading was so good that they're like, let's make that.

Or like, let's make this, you know, what we end with. I just thought that was really strong. And then, you know, the final shot of them like on the beach, like the idea of, I mean, Lauren once again left on the narrative. But the idea of bearing them at sea and then like coming and they're still like in the in the world of the show alive and in love and together on the beach. I did think it was like a really beautiful closing image for this series. Totally agree.

“Okay, we did it. If you have any other of these like TV closer performances that you want to shout out, press YouTube, it's Spotify.com.”

We love like getting your suggestions. Thank you to all the people who've watched the pit within the last 24 hours and sent us your suggestions for. Nick cute Nick names for doing drugs. Well, well, being a sports person. We've had some really good ones already. You know, some different stuff going on on that podcast, it turns out.

It's really hard to explain. Yeah. We'll be back with our next episode of the pit. And on the horizon, we're definitely covering beef. The Netflix limited series that's dropping next month. That is something we're really, really excited for.

And, um, love some other stuff coming up. But we will definitely be wrapping up the last month, I guess, of the pit. It never stops. Thanks to Dev for their work on this podcast and thank you to Rob Mahoney for your devotion to love stories. And they get a kitty rich for launching this series of this.

Absolutely. We will see you soon. Bye.